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148 comments:
uno
Evening all,
Quick question for the group....awhile back, someone (maybe a few of us) mentioned something about multiple raptures. I can't remember who it was or the details/Scriptures involved. Anyone remember? Can you refresh me on it?
Also, my parents are here for the kids' party this weekend. My relationship with them has been strained during the last 5 years or so and as I've grown in my faith, I find myself even more frustrated with them as they don't seem to be interested in anything other than status quo. It's hard to find anything to talk with them about these days. Tonight my dad sat in front of the TV watching PBS and I felt like he was a million miles away from me. My mom and I talk alot, but I don't trust her like I used to and so alot of the stuff we discuss is very shallow. Some of the things they say is just so disheartening (politically, about society, etc.) Anyway, I don't even know what to pray for other than that they have teachable spirits and greater discernment and that they see the Father's love flourishing in me and are eager to know Him better as well.
Well, I'd better wrap up for the night. Long day tomorrow :-)
Blessings,
Jen
'It is doubtful that Olmert can continue serving as PM'
Jen
not much you can do other than pray. we'll be praying that all goes well this weekend for you.
Boatman btw is the one who has tlaked about 3 raptures.
Anybody seen or heard from Kathy?
Hey Guys and Gals, I remember the multiple rapture discussion too. Some people like Chuck Missler count as many as 7 raptures in scripture. It depends on if you count Paul's and St John's. I would definitely count Enoch and Elijah and the rapture of the Church. So, at least three. I'll try to come up with some more when it's not past my bedtime.
In His Grip,
Scott
I was wondering about Kathy too, JIB.
You out there, Kathy?
Hey, if there really is a multi rapture - wouldn't it be funny if all the pre-wrathers and post-tribbers get raptured first and the pre-tribbers last? No?
Just kidding, guys! Really!
Grany, Shalom! I agree that your granddaughter should move from Kansas to someplace safer. Maybe she should move to Reno -- tornadoes are VERY rare out there.
<><
I agree - before she ends up in OZ, with Mac!
sorry - couldn't help myself!
Hi All,
I only see one rapture of the church taught in Scripture, that we all go up at the same time, and of course you know where I put it.
I sensed my presence was making some uncomfortable so I stepped back.
I do have some new posts if any are interested.
Donna, I want you to know that I've been praying for your family.
Jeri, yours too.
Kathy
I took some springtime photos around our property in the beautiful Pacific Northwest on Wednesday. You can enjoy them by clicking here and then hit slideshow. (My daughter, son-in-law, and granddaughter were over at the time.)
I'm still on strike but when Grany wakes up-have her look at this:
Four Winds New Age
I was looking at that link you sent on the "Four Winds" map of prophetic US disasters.
I thought it seemed Christain as I know some Christians have had these dreams/visions of judgment on the US.
I dug in a little deeper and started reading their posted headlines. I noticed it had a anti-Israel slant in the reporting.
Then I went to the main page and found out the religon. THIS IS NEW AGE!! YIKES!!!
Look at it. THEY want to take over the US. This is that Oprah garbage.
Hi, Kathy. Yes I've seen the posts. Good to know you're still here...and not raptured without us:-) I agree with you, I only see one rapture in scripture. I think some people may call it partial rapture. I did try to look it up some time ago but was unable to find much on it. I seem to recall Marilyn Hickey teaching the concept but I may be mistaken.
My sister's intervention with my son went well. He listened to all she said and suggested. He is still going on the trip, but she gave him 3 pages of things he needs to get more information on to prepare him.
As for Geoff, this is the message I just got:
I guess the best word would be maintaining now.....still not able to do very much. Part of the problem is they are bringing him off the steroids
Obviously, still needs prayer.
Jim, Reno? Better have a rubber house. Isn't that where they're having a lot of earthquakes? You so funny!
Here's a new recipe I created last week?
Peanutbutter/white chocolate chip
1 C shortening
1 c peanut butter
2 c sugar
2 T molasses
1 tsp. vanilla
2 eggs
2 1/2 c flour
1 1/2 tsp baking soda
1 tsp baking powder
12 oz. giardelli white choc chips
Beat p-nut butter, shortening, sugar, molasses and vanilla. Add eggs, beat. Add dry ingredients and finally stir in chips.
Use tablespoon size (med) scoop, place on sprayed sheets, 2" apart, bake at 350 for 14 minutes. Makes 4 doz.
I'm still trying to catch up with everyone's comments and links. I hate to miss anything any of you have said!
Lisa, was it you who asked what LYLAB/S means? (Lullaby? I like that!) It means Love You Like A Brother/Sister
OK, I need more input! Has anyone heard about this? The first link is an AP article about the manifesto, the second seems to be the manifest itself. I have not yet found a list of the signers but I know they include Rick Warren and Os Guinness.
Evangelicals say faith is too political
An Evangelical Manifesto
"This is a kairos moment for the church of Jesus Christ. At the close of the 20th century, the church exists in a world tortured by polarization, selfishness, indifference and godlessness. Furthermore, the church, particularly the body of Christ in America, despite its significant influence and ministry, has been so infected by such sins that it has a witness and ministry for Christ that is far less than it could or should be."
Lori, it's a good thing I don't like to bake! I'd gain 5 pounds just this weekend!
Anne,
Your loss is my gain....
Lori, good one!
CORRECTION!
I think the Manifesto I linked you all to is not the one which is due to be release on Wednesday. The one on cephasministry.com does not have some of the key words in the document such as "useful idiots" (doesn't show up when I use "find on this page"). So, I'm sorry. We might not know what the Manifesto says until Wednesday.
Would anyone be interested in building a timeline of D's 70th Week with me, just using scripture? I believe it would bring resolve regarding a partial or multiple rapture.
Lisa, I didn't even think of New Age junk. I was interested in the report on Earthquakes and then that report showing the New Madrid dream. I knew Jim and I had a long conversation last year about it and that is all I was referring to. But, you can bet that from now on I will check them out to the toe jam in between their toes.
That article by Strom is what started it all and I knew I had read something on him way back in the 80's that was questionable. Seems he had been associated with the group that Todd Bentley runs with and I hadn't seen anything from him since then. The Elijah List is one of the main gathering places for all of them, or was when I first knew about them. The Elijah List web site has a lot of "prophets" but it is just something that I don't put much faith in. People start running after "prophets" for a word from God when they have all of the Word of God in the scriptures. Sure I know God is speaking to us all everyday, and yes, I do believe that he is and will continue to give us visions, dreams, word of knowledge, etc. until that day we are face to face seeing him in full living color. But to forsake the scriptures for a new word from God runs contrary to my belief system. God said there was nothing new under the sun, what was is still and what is to be was. Simple, well for me it is.
So, Lisa, thank you for showing that up for what it is.
MAC or ALESIA, I removed the reference Lisa is talking about from my remarks on the previous post. Then I reposted without the link. Just to be sure.
Oh, I hate messing up like that and I do take it personal because I have no desire to link anyone to something so wrong.
Grany
My Child ~
You may not know me, but I know everything about you ~ Psalm 139:1
I know when you sit down and when you rise up ~ Psalm 139:2
I am familiar with all your ways ~ Psalm 139:3
Even the very hairs on your head are numbered ~ Matthew 10:29-31
For you were made in my image ~ Genesis 1:27
In me you live and move and have your being ~ Acts 17:28
For you are my offspring ~ Acts 17:28
I knew you even before you were conceived ~ Jeremiah 1:4-5
I chose you when I planned creation ~ Ephesians 1:11-12
You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book ~ Psalm 139:15-16
I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live ~ Acts 17:26
You are fearfully and wonderfully made ~ Psalm 139:14
I knit you together in your mother's womb ~ Psalm 139:13
And brought you forth on the day you were born ~ Psalm 71:6
I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me ~ John 8:41-44
I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love ~ 1 John 4:16
And it is my desire to lavish my love on you ~ 1 John 3:1
Simply because you are my child and I am your father ~ 1 John 3:1
I offer you more than your earthly father ever could ~ Matthew 7:11
For I am the perfect father ~ Matthew 5:48
Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand ~ James 1:17
For I am your provider and I meet all your needs ~ Matthew 6:31-33
My plan for your future has always been filled with hope ~ Jeremiah 29:11
Because I love you with an everlasting love ~ Jeremiah 31:3
My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore ~ Psalm 139:17-18
And I rejoice over you with singing ~ Zephaniah 3:17
I will never stop doing good to you ~ Jeremiah 32:40
For you are my treasured possession ~ Exodus 19:5
I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul ~ Jeremiah 32:41
And I want to show you great and marvelous things ~ Jeremiah 33:3
If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me ~ Deuteronomy 4:29
Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart ~ Psalm 37:4
For it is I who gave you those desires ~ Philippians 2:13
I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine ~ Ephesians 3:20
For I am your greatest encourager ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles ~ 2 Corinthians 1:3-4
When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you ~ Psalm 34:18
As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart ~ Isaiah 40:11
One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes ~ Revelation 21:3-4
And I'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth ~ Revelation 21:3-4
I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus ~ John 17:23
For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed ~ John 17:26
He is the exact representation of my being ~ Hebrews 1:3
He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you ~ Romans 8:31
And to tell you that I am not counting your sins ~ 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled ~ 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you ~ 1 John 4:10
I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love ~ Romans 8:31-32
If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me ~ 1 John 2:23
And nothing will ever separate you from my love again ~ Romans 8:38-39
Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen ~ Luke 15:7
I have always been Father, and will always be Father ~ Ephesians 3:14-15
My question is ~ Will you be my child? ~ John 1:12-13
I am waiting for you ~ Luke 15:11-32
Love, Your Dad, Almighty God
Shalom, all!
Lori, I'll have to get some white chocolate chips and try out that recipe. I was going to copy it into a file I have on my desktop for things I just want to keep around, when I came across the message I just posted. I don't know when I picked it up or from whom or where, but I thought everyone might enjoy reading it again.
Regarding Todd Bentley, again.
Todd Bentley, angels, white light and spiritual manifestations
"Todd Bentley prophesied the following, which was published on the Elijah List on August 23, 2007. Bentley said: ‘There is an open Heaven in this place…….But the angels were messin’ around.’ (http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/5733 ) One wonders exactly what kind of angels Todd Bentley knows, and who they belong to exactly, who ‘mess around’ like this amongst the saints, as I certainly do not know any like that that belong to GOD, not have I read of any in the Bible - though I do know angels who hide as angels of light who are from Satan who love jerking the church around and mocking them and ‘messing around’.
Todd Bentley continues in this ‘prophecy’: ‘And I heard that angelic sound last night and I saw it as lightning. I saw sound as white light.’ White light is a known occultic buzz word and belief, particularly popular in Spiritualist beliefs (and in ’white’ witchcraft). Spiritualist Mediums and white witches and other occultists will often cast a circle of white light around themselves as ‘protection’ from dark forces before going into a trance or before casting spells, or before allowing (what they think to be temporary) spirit possession by (what they think to be) benign helping spirits, and call on this white light to aid them or others. It is interesting to note that Patricia King of Extreme Prophetic, who helped mentor Todd Bentley, was involved in witchcraft before her conversion, and prophet Bob Jones, so revered by both Bentley and King has also testified to being involved in the occult and hearing demonic voices. (He claims that upon his conversion the demon voices automatically changed to angels voices). Sadly all too many New Age beliefs have continued in Patricia King’s and Bob Jones’ mindsets, and have obviously greatly influenced Todd Bentley.
This is what Bob Jones has to say about white light: ‘A lot of people see a lot of different colors [when in the third heaven], but when I take the children up most of the time, they see the “white light”. ’ Bob Jones, by the way, claims he can take anyone with him up into a third heaven experience, by his own will by grabbing their hand (more on that later). He claims he goes up ‘there’ daily.
I mentioned at the start of the article about Bentley claiming angels were messing around. On the following video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFp1tG9z7SM&feature=related he ministers to some people at Toronto (John Arnott’s church). At around 7.59 on this clip (you can fast forward to the place) after ministering wham bam sheba bam, bam he says ‘That was fun’. What kind of reverence for God, his anointing or Holy Spirit is that? Can you see any of the apostles doing this? It is not just what he says but how he says it. At around 5.08 on the video and again at 7.15 there are some troubling counterfeit tongues too."
I think it about sums up where he is coming from. If it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck...
God Bless!
Grany, Shalom!
I had come to the same conclusion Lisa had when reading that message. Andrew Strom runs the Revival School website. I didn't know if he actually contributed to that fourwinds10.com site, or if they just copied his material -- I've seen that same posting with the same maps on a couple of other sites, including Revival School. Given how he is such an F&B preacher (Fire and Brimstone), it's hard for me to imagine how he would have purposefully put his writings on a New Age web site.
However, Strom makes a big deal about the Christian Prophecy movement. I'm becoming very leery of that movement; because of that, I don't hang out on that site anymore. The whole deal with the maps; let's just say that for every one of those maps seen in a dream, I could point to any number of articles from Science Digest or Nature or other magazines like that, from the same period of time when the map was created, that talked about the same thing: Florida under water; New Madrid fault, etc. I've been reading right-wing materials for the past 35 years that have warned about America being invaded. Does anyone remember a movie called "Red Dawn"?
Given the level of inconsistencies between the maps (one map showed parts of Southern Texas along the Mexican border as being underwater, other maps didn't, for example), I have to conclude that this is all noise. The only message worth taking from all these "prophecies" is BE PREPARED! With that in mind, I've bookmarked this site along with some sites I found on the home page such as Millennium Ark and put them into my "Psycho Sites" folder -- you never know when a little insanity is the best way to explain things. I also plan to keep trying to analyze events of the day and warn people based on what I find. I don't have any problem with this or with other people doing this because I have never felt called to say, "Thus Saith the Lord" in regards to anything I have written. Lately I'm feeling drawn to write about a new Kristalnacht happening in America, but again, that would be just to warn people, not to say that this is what would happen, which is what I see these people with the maps doing.
<><
Virginia Woman credits prayer
Associated Press-5/3/2008 6:00:00am
A Virginia woman credits prayer for saving her and her husband from death or serious injury when a tornado struck their home this week.
Beth Catania says when a tornado smashed into her Suffolk, Virginia, home on Monday, she just prayed. "The closet I was in exploded. I was pushed by the tornado, I rolled four times. Every time I rolled I said 'I'm alive, thank you Jesus.' Rolled again. 'I'm alive, thank you Jesus.'"
When she and her husband were allowed to return Wednesday, Catania says she was surprised at what she found where her house had stood.
"Here sitting on the foundation of the house -- there's nothing else on the foundation -- is this Bible, whose pages were wet, so that it was open to Psalms 75. And I picked it up, and read it out loud. And it talks about a promise of God taking care of His children, me."
As for the future, she says God "has a new house for us somewhere. That's not a concern at all."
Jim Carroll, you is right mon! The maps were interesting to me because I can remember way back in the 40's a tent revival in my hometown and this man was saying the same things about God going to shake America Up and he had a big map on a pull up stand (like we used to use for movie and slide presentations) and the maps had all different areas marked in color blocks. Earthquake here, floods there, mud slides all over California and part of it falling into the ocean and on and on. All of this was due to the after math of the Roaring 20's, the depression of 1929, and then the cataclysmic move of Germany and Japan. This minister knew something was about to take place and tried in his own understanding to place his judgment where he thought God would do things. Of course, we know that WW2 happened and we were indeed embroiled in a horrible period of time with much loss of life.
Is it a trend that people go through when they know that the sins of the land will bring judgment? I don't know but it sure seems like that is the case. Maybe it has to do with our knowing our own sins should bring judgment and down deep inside we expect it. Again, I don't know for sure.
But one thing I am sure of, Todd Bentley is not referring to God's Angels in any way. I think if Todd Bentley, Bob Jones, or Patrica King ever saw a real angel they would do just like all of the other Bible people who saw them. Fall down in stark terror at the sight, size and Holiness of them. The only word that comes to mind with the sights those people connected with Bentley is bizarre. And I had a terrible time getting that word spelled correctly.
By the way JIM, RENO, NV?? You want her to go from wind blown to shaking like a leaf? LOL @;o) Oh Lord, help! She could move down here and get under the 91st Psalms with my household.
Tata!
Grany
GT, that was some very interesting stuff about Patricia King that I didn't know. I've been to her site out of curiousity. Her prophecies are vague and her use of scripture is sloppy. Let's pray that she moves another step closer to the Truth and wakes up.
Hi, this is Mia, Lori's daughter. I want you to say a prayer for my boyfriend. He is on his way to the hospital for what he thinks is an allergic reaction.
I appreciate you all, thank you very much.
Jim, I liked your 10:18 post.
Things are moving faster..
Exclusive: Saudi Crown Prince Sultan is dying - he is probably the most "moderate" Arab "ally" the US has in the ME....
Interesting DebkaFile analysis with some very biblically interesting comments:
http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1348
AG Mazuz: Olmert's suspension not being discussed
Three Pensioner MKs Bolt Coalition - this means Olmert's coalition is now down to a majority of 4 (in a Knesset of 120 seats)
Rice Arrives Ahead of Bush Visit - her 15th visit in 2 years!!
John
Has anyone here ever heard of the
2x2 cult?
mac;
I don't know about Patricia King myself but I would be very careful about Bob Jones, Paul Kane or anyone connected to "Kansas City Prophets" or Vineyard. It seems that in their search for "things of the spirit", they have thrown away God's Word (The Bible), and gone off into dominionism and other false ways, listening to prophetic words without checking with discernment againts God's Word. In fact it seems the whole "third wave" thing is suspect and no one will be corrected on it. The final outcome is stuff like Todd Bentley put out there.
God Bless!
Hey overcomer,
Sorry I didn't expand more in my last post. Personally, I believe in one rapture of the saints occurring at the end of the church age, the "mystery" Paul discussed several times. I do remember someone here posted over on Joel's site a while back and made a cogent arguement for another rapture at the end of the tribulation of the trib. saints. But that wasn't what I was referring to when I mentioned multiple raptures. I believe a rapture is when someone is taken to heaven directly in their physical body without dying first. This happened to Enoch in Genesis 5:24, Elijah in 2 Kings 2:11.
And it will happen to us, the Church.
Interesting side note on things that make you go Hmmmm
Jewish tradition says Enoch was raptured to heaven on his 365th birthday, the Hoch Sivot/Feast of Weeks. When is/was that this year?
I think you will all safely find this of interest on Jack Kelley's web site.
www.gracethrufaith.com/ikvot/the-blood-moon-scenario
Has to do with the discussion of the Blood Red Moon.
LORI, I Got it! Thanks and I will get an email off to you in a zip of a minute.
Love ya,
Grany
Thanks for the reply Scott. We are in agreement for I too believe in one rapture of the saints (church saints) occurring at the end of the church age. Where do you place the end of the church age? Would you be interested in building that timeline with me of D's 70th Week?
Someone here was asking about the various views of the Rapure and came across this earlier and thought I would just post it here. I really have not had a chance to go through the entire artice but I'm sure there are some out there that might like this.
http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/part3/rapture.htm
-Jec
Looks like it got cut off. Try again.
http://www.choicesforliving.
com/spirit/part3/rapture.htm
-Jec
Jec,
Since Paul teaches that believers will be resurrected and raptured at the event of the Lord's coming and Christ Himself places this event at some point after the AofD and after the great tribulation...it doesn't make any sense at all to me that there is a split or partial rapture. You'd have to have two second comings at its just not taught in scripture.
mac;
I sent you an e-mail, let me know if you received it. Thanks!
God Bless!
Lori, Shalom! No, I haven't heard about the 2x2's, but I had heard of the Coonyites.
<><
Hi GT. I haven't received the e-mail yet. You can leave a comment on my blog as well, if you want.
Hi Overcomer,
The link was just another understanding from the perspective of multiple raptures. I had a quick glance from this forum from someone asking info on it, so I posted that perspective here because they sounded like they were curious. I did go through some of that article on that web site along with some other articles and do have to say that there are some bizarre beliefs there on various topics. As for me, well I will just say that there are many here that love to engage one another, and it is good to do that as we can find ourselves growing in many ways by doing that. I can't say that I am as fortunate enough to sit and search for all of the verses to back up what I believe, but I do wish I could do that. I will just
say that I am a pre-trib rapture guy and nobody will change me on that one, nobody. BTW, I do struggle to find time just to have a quiet time with my Lord and pray. Also, why God would allow His children to go through the entire tribulaion period let alone the first 3.5 years is beyond me. Take care and God Bless.
-Jec
I've just heard that Hal Lindsey has taken a nasty fall. He is seventy nine years old and has broken a couple of ribs and sustained a head injury. He is finding it hard to breathe. Please pray for speedy healing.
praying
Thanks JIm, I did a quick Google search and it appears they are one and the same.
interesting article by Jack Kelly Grany. I must admit most of that had crossed my mind. While I think we're close I don't know that we're THAT close. I would agree however that Is 17 might just happen this summer. I would disagree however that Ex 38 has to take place before the Rapture. I agree with Joel, LaHaye and others who feel that while it is THE event that draws Israel back to God by and large as a nation the scripture also clearly says that He is doing this so that ALL nations will know that He is God and is still working and intervening in history. Wouldn't it be somewhat pointless for God to reveal himself to all the nations after the Rapture?
Sure Overcomer, I'll help with the timeline. As always on this and Joel's site, very time I look to scripture to research one of my views on eschatology I am blessed. One caveat... some of what we get into doesn't have 2 or more clear verses in scripture to support it, and, so, will fall under the heading of personal interpretation and we cannot/should not get dogmatic about it. Agreed?
Jec, I will be praying for you that you make that special time to be with the Lord for that is when we draw strength to be faithful in our walk with the Lord. As we all behold His glory in the pages of Scripture, we are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory. (2 Cor. 3:18 is one of my favorite verses!) Several verses before that Paul says our adequacy is from God. How important it is to spend time with Him!
(Scott, I think you will be interested in this too as the end of the age is discussed.)
Many, many of the Lord’s faithful since He ascended back up to the Father have already suffered great tribulation and persecution for their faith, even to the point of death.
Look at Jesus own words to us in Luke 9:23-26: “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.”
Are you familiar with the parable of the wheat and tares that Jesus tells in Mt. 13:24-30? He gives the meaning of the parable in verses 37-43. The context is the church. The time frame, the end of the age.
Jesus says that the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. The man’s enemy comes in and sows tares also among the wheat. When the wheat sprang up, the tares also became evident. Slaves for the landowner go to him and ask him how can there be tares when he sowed good seed in the field? The man replies that his enemy has done this. The slaves ask the man if they should gather the tares. He says no because it could disturb the wheat. He tells them to allow them to grow together until the time of the harvest. He will then tell His reapers to gather the tares and burn them but the wheat is to be gathered in the barn.
Awhile later the disciples ask Jesus to explain the parable to them.
Jesus says the sower of the good seed is Himself, the Son of Man. The field is the world. The good seed are the sons of the kingdom, the wheat, true believers. The tares are sons of the evil one. They are look-alikes, they are not true believers. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. What Jesus says next is very important in understanding when the wheat, the true believers, are gathered, or raptured. Jesus says the harvest, the gathering/rapture of the church is the end of the age and the reapers or gatherers are His angels.
Let’s jump ahead now to Mt. 24:3. Here the disciples ask Jesus the sign of His coming and the end of the age! Now remember, Jesus already told them His true followers will be gathered at the end of the age. Jesus places the sign of the end of the age immediately after the great tribulation. Don’t forget, He instructs that the great tribulation will be cut short for the sake of the elect, His true followers! (Mt. 24:22) The great tribulation will begin just after the midpoint of D’s 70th Week but it will be cut short before it reaches the end of D’s 70th Week. What cuts it short? The sign of the end of age, the sign of the Son of Man, the Son of Man coming with His angels, His reapers! What do His reapers do? They gather the elect, the wheat, the true believers! Do you see it? Oh I pray you do!
God’s Word is very clear that we are not destined for His day of the Lord’s wrath. It cannot be falling while the wheat is still in the field, waiting for the harvest. No, He will wait until the wheat, His true followers, are safely gathered. It’s the tares who will face His wrath. But the wheat is never promised to be spared from tribulation.
Luke 9:26: “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.”
Scott, I think we were posting at the same time. I'm off to church but will check back in with you this afternoon. Please read the post above this one and tell me what you think.
Thanks!
interesting article about an earlier mentor of Obama, one apparently even disowned by the NAACP of Hawaii at the time!
Early Obama Mentor
I read another article I think off of Drudge that quoted an elderly white woman (yes the identified her that way) who was a long time Republican voter who was going to "vote for Obama because McCain just didn't speak to her heart the way Obama did" scary.
Overcomer, Shalom! I've enjoyed that parable about the wheat and the tares for almost 20 years, ever since I lived in Kansas. On the Sunday where that was the Gospel reading, the priest stood up and said he had done a wedding the day before where the father of the bride was a local farmer. After the wedding when everyone was gathered at the farm the priest asked the farmer about this parable, and the farmer took him to the fields. After looking for a while, the farmer pulled up two handfulls of plants. "This", the farmer said, showing him one handful, "is wheat, and this," showing him the other handful, "is weeds."
As a townie who grew up in corn country, I had absolutely no experience with wheat. It was amazing. As the priest showed us the plants, it was impossible for anyone to tell the difference between the two just by looking at them. You truly had to have an expert eye to be able to tell the difference between the two. What's more, it was evident how the root systems of both the wheat and the weeds had intertwined. Even if you could know you were pulling up weeds, you could be certain that you would be damaging the wheat.
<><
Jim, that's an amazing story and gives us a lot to think about. How thorough Jesus is in His teaching!
I'm thinking about the many people I know who speak about knowing God but seem to be dependent on their own works for their righteousness. Their actions are honorable, but their trust is not in Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Oh, how truly we need the discernment of the Holy Spirit!
If you carefully study Mt. 24, the end of the age culminates at the event of Jesus coming. The sign of the end of the age, the lights going out, falls somewhere in the latter half of D's 70th Week. How do we know this? Because the AofD occurs at the midpoint of the Week. (Dan. 9:24-27) Then great tribulation commences...then it is cut short by the sign of the end of the age and Jesus coming.
Since Jesus teaches in Mt. 13 that the wheat, His true followers, the church, are gathered at the end of the age by His reapers, the angels, this makes Mt. 24:31 the rapture, the gathering of the church at the coming of Christ which is exactly what Paul teaches in 1 Th. 4.
Jesus tells us at the very end of Mt..."and lo I am with you (the church) always, even to the end of the age (when He returns)."
Jesus says in Mt. 24:10 that many will fall away and deliver up one another. The end of the age has not occurred when this falling away happens. We know this because Jesus says in verse 13 the one who endures to the end (of the age) will be saved.
So who are the ones that fall away? It can't be anyone else other than the tares, the look-alikes. They've been playing church but when they are put to the test of remaining faithful to the one true God and facing death or worshiping AC and living, they will fall away, proving they were not God's in the first place.
Does this make sense?
Outlawing the Pig
Overcomer,
You seem to be very focused on Matt:24.
When I try and look at it from your perspective it does make sense.
However, when I look at other scriptures and parables in addition to the ones you mention I see a "bigger picture." (If you could call it that.)
The "Church age" will end when God places his focus back on Israel.That is why the Church is not mentioned throughout most of the book of Revelaion. There are some people however; who will repent and return to the Lord in that period. These are the Tribulaion Saints.
But we have all been through this debate many times. It could not be more clear to my eyes. I'm not saying that my opinion is cast in concrete but you would have to explain away the passages which support the pre-trib view as well the overall meaning and theme of the "Marriage of the Bride & Bridegroom."
But this difference is not a factor in the issue of Salvation so how important is it really?
If the Trib happens in our life time like it seems-Then we'll figure it out.
We just have to be doing the will of the Father , keep our lamps lit and be ready for whatever challanges befall us.
But for me-I'll be looking up and listening for that trumpet.
If your correct and I live through 1/2 or the entire Trib (which I doubt w/my big mouth-I'll probably actually be screaming from the rooftops by then)then that's just the way it is. I'll just have to accept what is-is.
I think the reason why God didn't place me in the Middle East is because it wouldn't have taken me long to get my head chopped off.
In my life I see God already seperating the wheat from the tares and calling out his Church from all legitimate denominations.
I just had a dicussion with a 7th day Adventist today on that very topic in which she was the one who mentioned that fact 1st.
Mere coincidence? I don't think so.
Lisa
Lisa
nicely said
Mac
they can't take my bacon away I forbid it. How ridiculous has this all become?
Jib,
Of course depending upon how bad the war of Gog & Magog becomes-like the US getting a few nukes-as a starter(As we know the US was not promised protection)
I think most Christians would like to see God's "Supernatural intervention". We have personally never been witness to anything like that before.
So, we'll just have to see what happens. I think it's just a guess at this point.
I was thinking today that it might be an interesting Bible study to determine just what a "Christian culture" should look like in view of the "manifesto" to be published this week.
We are to be like Christ and have His mind but just how do we work that out on a regular basis in our daily lives. How does that work in society in general? People want to say "you can't legislate morality" and yet we do every time some one is convicted on robbing, beating, murdering and raping some one else-why else would we even have those laws in the first place? All are immoral behaviors.
as a starting point-what attributes should we posses that would make us like Christ and how do those play out in our daily lives?
Hi..just thought I'd check in...its' been pretty busy around here..
the Jack Kelly article was really interesting...thanks for posting it grany.
I will try to catch up on posts asap
You are all in my thoughts and prayers...and it was really sad to hear about hal lindsey thanks for the update, mac
thanks for the prayers and talk with you all soon
maranatha
I just wanted to respond to JIB's last post.
I was taught that if we trust Him, He will santify us; we can not change on our own.
If we trust Him, t6he Spirit will put to death the deads of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit will become apparent.
It's a process.
I know there are other schools of thought on this, but I believe this is what the Bible teaches about sanctification.
<><
Hi all,
Hope to have time to post more later, but thought I'd pass along this article I found about the Reno area quakes. The statement, "We see a lot of sequences like this in volcanic areas, where they are associated with stresses as the magna moves around" caught my attention.
"Volcanic" isn't a word I associate with Nevada!
Here's the article:
Reno's swarm of quakes defies the odds
Blessings,
Jen
This is kind of grosse.
Dead Italian Monk Saint Dug up
Mac, Shalom! Coming from the state that produces the most number of pigs in the nation, that Frontpage article is scary.
<><
FYI,
In case someone brings this up.
Film about proof Jesus had a son
It has actually no proof but people only hear what they want to.
"In 2004, a Muslim-owned investment company, Arcapita (formerly Capital Crescent Investments) acquired the 1,200-unit Church’s Chicken chain. In 2005, Arcapita, with a net income of $70.5 million and assets worth $1.2 billion (2004), enjoined a franchisee from selling pork products. In correspondence with the franchisee, the corporate owners cited violation of shariah law as the reason for prohibiting the sale of bacon, ham and sausages. The restaurant owners were thereby forced to surrender to corporate demands and operate under shariah law."
That is scary!
Try again Jesus child
Lisa, Lisa! A little respect, please!
For one thing, Padre Pio isn't a saint. He is on the road to being declared a saint (which simply means that there is enough evidence to conclude that he is in heaven), but isn't a Saint yet. One bit of evidence would be incorruptibility: the body was exhumed to see if it had decayed. There are confirmed reports of saint's bodies that have been exhumed after 400 years where the flesh is still pink, firm, and exhudes a scent of flowers. In one case, there was a legend of a saint being buried near the altar of the cathedral. When the area around the altar was being dug up while being remodeled, the workers were surprised when a pickax went through a coffin. They were even more surprised to find the body of a nun, dressed exactly like the legend said, and the body still so fresh the cheek was bleeding where the pickax had cut it.
Well, in the case of Padre Pio, his body was not incorrupt -- some decay had occurred, although not as much as would be expected after 40 years. Incorruptibility is not a requirement for sainthood, and there's plenty of other evidence that shows he lived a life of heroic virtue, including a number of miraculous healings.
<><
donna;
"I was taught that if we trust Him, He will santify us; we can not change on our own."
That is my understanding also as stated in the following passage:
Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
The "good work" being our sanctification.
God Bless!
Shalom, all! I need your prayers. For the last couple of days I've been trying to discern if the Holy Spirit is leading me to start a Catholic Charismatic group in the university town where I live. I feel as if I'm experiencing some spiritual oppression when I've been trying to think and pray about this. My big concern is that I do not know if I am spiritually capable of starting or possibly leading such a group. In other words, I don't know if I have enough faith.
After church today, I was asking my priest if he knew of any existing Catholic Charismatic groups in the area. I figured if he did, great, I'll just join that group. Turns out he didn't know of any, but he would really like it if I started one! He's got too many things on his plate right now, but if one was available he'd like to be able to drop in when he could. Then he said something that stopped me in my tracks: that this period now, between the Feast of the Ascension and Pentecost, is the perfect time to be praying about starting a charismatic group. What stopped me was the timing: I really started thinking and praying about this on Thursday -- the Feast of the Ascension.
<><
I don't disagree with either Donna or GT but ya'll really didn't answer the question I asked. Yes, although the Spirit is the One that does the work, we have to be willing to be worked on. So my original question remains-what are the attributes that Christ had that should be identifiable in our lives through the work of the Spirit and how should they manifest in the minutiae or our daily lives or in society at large? We have prominent evangelical leaders publishing a manifesto in a few days because faith is too political. If we are really true to what the Bible says, if we exemplify the likemindedness of Christ-Can our faith really be too political?
Jim
best wishes as you start on this journey. My God direct and guide your path. perhaps this is why you have no job? surely it would have been more difficult if you were employed full time?
JIB, I don't know if this is what you were looking for but I'm going take a good look at it for my own edification!!
GOD-GIVEN RESPONSIBILITIES AND DUTIES
For Jeri & Adi...
What cancer Cannot do
Cancer is so limited...
It cannot cripple Love
It cannot shatter Hope
It cannot corrode Faith
It cannot destroy Peace
It cannot kill Friendship
It cannot suppress Memories
It cannot silence Courage
It cannot invade the Soul
It cannot steal Eternal Life
It cannot conquer the Spirit
It cannot lessen the power of the Resurrection
Author Unknown
God Bless you & your family -- still in my prayers.
WOW - What a great link Mac! Thanks. (that one's going on my blog link for sure)
Where's Harold & Nate off to?
Oh, & Grumps er.. ATTY too?
JEC - I concur with your 11:38 post!
Lori - How's the job going?
Donna - still praying
Hey, did anyone catch that those tornados were in DAMASCUS Arkansas?
hmmmmm, interesting.
Jim,
That post on the dead saint was not a personal attack.
You are very knowledgeable in Catholicism and reasonably view most things from that perspective.
But for those of us who have nothing to do with dead saints - I've got to tell you-it's bizarre behavior.
I know nothing about dead saints so your explaination from the Catholic perspective does help to clarify why someone would do this.
Isn't Catholicism the only branch of Christianity which places an emphasis on saints?
For me personally I would find this practice very distracting as I rely upon Jesus as the only one to pray through.
But Jim, I try really hard to consider your perspective and I'm thankful your here to clear things up for us at times.
Your always in my prayers and I'll be praying for you to be sesitive to the calling of the Holy Spirit and have the faith to follow his lead.
We are never called to do something we cannot accomplish.For it is not accomplished under our own will or power but it is accomplished through us from the power Upon High. It's really amazing he uses us earthen vessels to accomplish His work for the Kingdom of God.
We should never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.This only becomes a problem when we forget our humility and begin to misuse this power for our own egos.
How your situations unfolded sure seems like a calling to me.
I knew something about this as I heard something similar on a talk radio show a year ago.
Mutlitated Cattle Map of United States
But what I had heard was about a particular area I think in New Mexico where these beings would appear on earth through a different dimension. They were trying to get them on film and had cameras mounted on telephone poles. (And they did not show up w/UFO's but came through a vortex or something) The cameras were destroyed or blank but these (evil spirits) beings would always mutilate animals in the areas where they appeared.
So when I saw this it reminded me of that radio show.
Yes, Yes," Mutilated"-sorry.
Mac
that was an excellent link. it will take me some time to get through that all.
yes that is partially what I was asking about.
my goals were
1-to spark discussion on something we hadn't discussed per se
2-to kick around ideas of what the impact of a life who by the aid of the Spirit actually tried to do all those responsibilities and if there were many such people what could be accomplished.
I have some concern over this upcoming manifesto by concerned evangelicals. while I realize that our first duty is to God and that we are called to win others to him we are also called to be a perservative (salt). Salt can be a very irritating thing. I think it is important before this manifesto comes out or as this manifesto comes out to have clear in our own minds how a godly life does impact society from all perspectives. I got the sense in reading the preliminary article about this that these guys pretty much think that Christians should just keep our noses out of the big issues of the day and stop being salt because they feel it is driving the general population away from God and causing us to fail at winning souls.
Mac
the whole site of this church is just amazing. there is so much stuff to read it is nearly overwhelming. to thoughtfully and prayerfully read and study everything on their site would take a very long time!
Cyclone
Terrible disaster!
Lisa, Shalom!
That post on the dead saint was not a personal attack.
No worries, I know it wasn't personal!
But for those of us who have nothing to do with dead saints - I've got to tell you-it's bizarre behavior.
Granted. To me, it's just part of the culture in which I was raised. Frankly, if it was any other dead body, I'd be a little creeped out -- there's a reason why I didn't visit Lenin's tomb when I was in Moscow. But in cases like this, it's a chance to experience the miraculous, a chance to be present when and where there is a physical manifestation of the extraordinary love G_D has for us.
In the case of Padre Pio, the thing people most want to see are his hands. Padre Pio was blessed/afflicted with the Stigmata: the physical wounds Christ experienced on the cross. Padre Pio bled from his head, feet, and sides, but the most prominent and noticeable wounds were on Padre Pio's hands. During his life, there were hundreds of photos showing the holes in his hands, and several films of him offering the Mass where it is clear that the light of the candles behind him are shining THROUGH the holes in his hands. When his body was exhumed and examined, however, there was no evidence to indicate any wounds or injuries anywhere on his body. His hands, in particular, showed no signs of injury or scarring that would have occurred if he had been inflicting the injuries on himself. In fact, when he was buried, there is documented evidence (photos, medical reports, etc.) to prove that the wounds were present and visible on his hands when he was buried. In other words, over the period of 40 years, his hands healed to the point where there was no scarring, and the healing occurred while he was dead.
I know nothing about dead saints so your explaination from the Catholic perspective does help to clarify why someone would do this.
Ah, but don't forget: the saints are not dead but live forever with Christ! Rev. 5:8 and 8:3 both describe offering to G_D golden bowls and golden censers filled with incense, "which are the prayers of the saints."
Isn't Catholicism the only branch of Christianity which places an emphasis on saints?
It depends on your definition of "Catholic." Most people assume "Catholic" means "Roman Catholic." As I've mentioned before, there are a number of Orthodox Churches, which for historical reasons can make the claim "Catholic" (which is Greek for "Universal"). All of these Churches, which can claim to be descended from churches founded by the Apostles, do acknowledge and revere saints as part of a historical tradition that dates from the times of the Apostles. So strictly speaking, no, Roman Catholicism is not "the only branch of Christianity which places an emphasis on saints."
For me personally I would find this practice very distracting as I rely upon Jesus as the only one to pray through.
As do we. Only G_D the Father, through His Son Jesus, can offer us salvation through the Blood of the Sacrifice of Jesus and His Glorious Resurrection. To use a mundane analogy, even though your family may find its life and support through the work of your father, that doesn't mean you can't ask your brother for help with your homework, your sister for help doing the dishes, or your mother for help with anything a Mom helps with. That's part and parcel of being in a family.
But Jim, I try really hard to consider your perspective and I'm thankful your here to clear things up for us at times.
Your always in my prayers and I'll be praying for you to be sesitive to the calling of the Holy Spirit and have the faith to follow his lead.
We are never called to do something we cannot accomplish.For it is not accomplished under our own will or power but it is accomplished through us from the power Upon High. It's really amazing he uses us earthen vessels to accomplish His work for the Kingdom of God.
We should never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.This only becomes a problem when we forget our humility and begin to misuse this power for our own egos.
How your situations unfolded sure seems like a calling to me.
Thanks. We'll see what happens.
<><
I think at is happening with your new acquaintance is pretty well summed up in a article in Saturday's Tennessean. I can't do links but the address is whhttp://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080503/NEWS06/805030358/1023. Choices here in Middle Tennessee are very limited if you want to hear the Word in a sermon. I try not to get discouraged in my little town, but it is hard not to be.
Lisa,
The reason I go to Mt. 24 so often is because it is Jesus very own teaching on His return. That makes it the biggest picture of all. From there we should be looking to see how the other prophetic puzzle pieces fit in.
A great day to All -
Kathy
Sara,
To make an active link: first, replace each ( with < and each ) with >
(A HREF="the-full-URL")article title(/A)
The (A HREF= identifies intent)
"the full URL") opens and closes with quotation marks followed by the >
Provide a brief article title
Then close with (/A)
Now see if this will help. Hopefully, I instructed clearly..
Blessings! (Mary)
Hi all,
Wow, Sara...did you read the comments after that article? Lots of people lost along the way, even those attending "church" (ie. "no sermons, just lots of love and testimonies")
Along those lines, we're planning to get back into a regular church-going routine but are considering looking for another church home because we feel our non-denom may be getting into the "coffee cafe" group too much. We haven't detected any error in Scripture, but like hubby said, the elders of the church are being pushed aside and the young ones (our age) are doing too much of the leading. The traditional service went from Sun to Sun PM and now we notice it's not listed on the website at all.
Hubby grew up strict Presby and he looked up 3 in our area. One is Orthodox, one is Presby Church of America and one is Presby Church USA. I need to do a lot of homework and praying before I agree to start down that road, but I do know that we have to make an informed decision, esp. since we both seem to feel concern about our present church home. Anyway, would love to get everyone's input. I think Lisa was dealing with a similar issue, no? I grew up between Methodist/Presby but that was tiny town stuff and 2 decades ago. Things are different now, so much has changed in the doctrine and now I have kids to consider.
Lord, come real quick!
Blessings,
Jen
Sara,
I'm also in Middle Tennessee.
Overcomer,
I agree Jesus teaches his return in Mat 24. It's the famous 2nd coming and the End of the Age.
A seperate event from the pre-trib catching up senario in which Christ the Bridegoom returns to hide his Bride (The Church) for 7 years.The same event the Jewish Wedding traditions symbolize.
So we can go back to Mat 24 all day long. I agree with you. I just don't agree it's the only event which believers are saved from the wrath of God.
That's what I mean by a bigger picture. There is more to it than the final event of the 2nd coming of our Lord.
That is why it's referred to as "a Mystery."
Anyway, I was thinking about Jesus sweating blood in the garden today and came across this article:
Jesus sweat Blood
Alesia,
I don't hurt as much today as last week. I'm learning to remember what to do. My boss told me my drawer balanced to the penny on Friday. Wahooo!
I asked today if the corp. would consider giving personality bonuses. That got a chuckle!
Shalom! Has anybody heard anything more about this?
Volcano eruption on Argentina-Chile border forces evacuations
Boy, things are really starting to shake in Alaska, too.
<><
Hi Jim,
I did see that new item over the weekend. That's why when I read that article about the Reno quakes being more like 'volcanic' tremors, I really perked up my ears! I have a cousin who is a park ranger out in one of the National Parks near Yellowstone area and I've felt the need to pray for her alot lately. Could be that I think her direction in life is headed away from God and there's a lot of turmoil in her family life/marriage, but it could be something else pushing me to pray for her as well.
Blessings,
Jen
lisa;
This is kind of grosse.
Dead Italian Monk Saint Dug up
I knew something about this as I heard something similar on a talk radio show a year ago.
Mutlitated Cattle Map of United States
Please anyone, Don't take this the wrong way but, lisa from "dead saint" to "mutulated cattle". WOW you are all over the map LOL. I really had to laugh in how you change subjects LOL. Again, please no disrespect.
jib;
So my original question remains-what are the attributes that Christ had that should be identifiable in our lives through the work of the Spirit and how should they manifest in the minutiae or our daily lives or in society at large?
It probably is not the answer you were looking for either but, maybe the "fruit of the Spirit".
Why don't you start the discussion with an example of what you mean, give an attribute that you think should be manifest.
God Bless!
lisa;
"I agree Jesus teaches his return in Mat 24. It's the famous 2nd coming and the End of the Age."
"A seperate event from the pre-trib catching up senario in which Christ the Bridegoom returns to hide his Bride (The Church) for 7 years.The same event the Jewish Wedding traditions symbolize."
"So we can go back to Mat 24 all day long. I agree with you. I just don't agree it's the only event which believers are saved from the wrath of God."
"That's what I mean by a bigger picture. There is more to it than the final event of the 2nd coming of our Lord."
I agree very well said, there is more to eschatology then fitting this and that event in here or there. I began my personal search with the big picture of what was God's plan for the redemption of his creation. Then I worked my way down to the details and how they relate to this big picture. Thats my take on it anyway.
God Bless!
Lisa, in the past we have discussed many of these Catholic traditions and issues with Jim and many of our discussions have gotten heated.
Many of us who were raised Catholic (like me) have a difficult time with most of the Catholic teachings as they can not be found in the scriptures and often contradict what the Bible teaches.
Jim knows how those of us who have expressed our thoughts feel...and we know how he feels, too.
He has taken lots of our insults in stride, I think for the most part, and has listened to what we've had to say.
So...just thought you'd want to know that.
:)
<><
Oops, I guess the word "insult" was probably not the best word to use....
what I meant to say was that Jim has taken a lot of our CONCERNS about Catholicism in stride and has listened to what we've had to say.
Reincarnation vs Creation
where is everyone?
"where is everyone?"
Me, I've just finished vacuuming, changing beds, feeding mac etc
The others? Maybe I should change the coffee brand and biscuits.
...a hyde's work is never done...grumble.
Yes, Mr. Hyde! The strongest coffee you can find!
I've been reading the posts, but spending all my free time recovering from the weekend. I did manage to get 2 new posts on my blog...feel free to check them out and see how far we've come the last 3 years :-)
Blessings,
Jen
GT,
I know I must be Schizoid- I've found something else now:
The Mafia of Crop Seeds
Honestly,
Whatever I find interesting relating to End Times or Religion is what's posted. It's nothing personal at all. That's why I don't stay on topic unless there is a particular discussion going on.
Donna,
I'm not getting on Jim's back about dead saints.If you or he took it personally , I'm sorry.
So if I find anything considered "Catholic" that is unusual or questioning I should be sensitive to Catholics and not post it?
I just want to know that answer.
Since Jim is representative of that faith he does get more heaped upon him than most since the Catholics stand in the lime light.
I hold Jim Caroll in high esteem and appreciate all that he adds to this group and look forward to any and all of his contributions.
I know he's a Catholic but to me he's just a fellow brother in Christ.
Lisa
Crop Seeds again
That link doesn't seem to be working to well. Here is part of it:
Monsanto already dominates America’s food chain with its genetically modified seeds. Now it has targeted milk production. Just as frightening as the corporation’s tactics–ruthless legal battles against small farmers–is its decades-long history of toxic contamination.
by Donald L. Barlett and James B. Steele May 2008 - Vanity Fair
Gary Rinehart clearly remembers the summer day in 2002 when the stranger walked in and issued his threat. Rinehart was behind the counter of the Square Deal, his “old-time country store,” as he calls it, on the fading town square of Eagleville, Missouri, a tiny farm community 100 miles north of Kansas City.
The Square Deal is a fixture in Eagleville, a place where farmers and townspeople can go for lightbulbs, greeting cards, hunting gear, ice cream, aspirin, and dozens of other small items without having to drive to a big-box store in Bethany, the county seat, 15 miles down Interstate 35.
Everyone knows Rinehart, who was born and raised in the area and runs one of Eagleville’s few surviving businesses. The stranger came up to the counter and asked for him by name.
“Well, that’s me,” said Rinehart.
As Rinehart would recall, the man began verbally attacking him, saying he had proof that Rinehart had planted Monsanto’s genetically modified (G.M.) soybeans in violation of the company’s patent. Better come clean and settle with Monsanto, Rinehart says the man told him—or face the consequences.
Rinehart was incredulous, listening to the words as puzzled customers and employees looked on. Like many others in rural America, Rinehart knew of Monsanto’s fierce reputation for enforcing its patents and suing anyone who allegedly violated them. But Rinehart wasn’t a farmer. He wasn’t a seed dealer. He hadn’t planted any seeds or sold any seeds. He owned a small—a really small—country store in a town of 350 people. He was angry that somebody could just barge into the store and embarrass him in front of everyone. “It made me and my business look bad,” he says. Rinehart says he told the intruder, “You got the wrong guy.”
When the stranger persisted, Rinehart showed him the door. On the way out the man kept making threats. Rinehart says he can’t remember the exact words, but they were to the effect of: “Monsanto is big. You can’t win. We will get you. You will pay.”
Scenes like this are playing out in many parts of rural America these days as Monsanto goes after farmers, farmers’ co-ops, seed dealers—anyone it suspects may have infringed its patents of genetically modified seeds. As interviews and reams of court documents reveal, Monsanto relies on a shadowy army of private investigators and agents in the American heartland to strike fear into farm country. They fan out into fields and farm towns, where they secretly videotape and photograph farmers, store owners, and co-ops; infiltrate community meetings; and gather information from informants about farming activities. Farmers say that some Monsanto agents pretend to be surveyors. Others confront farmers on their land and try to pressure them to sign papers giving Monsanto access to their private records. Farmers call them the “seed police” and use words such as “Gestapo” and “Mafia” to describe their tactics.
Monsanto to buyout leading company vegetable seeds
That's it. I can't take it anymore.
This company is going to have a monopoly on our agriculture if they buyout all the leading seed manufacturers. Pretty funny they started out in the pesticide poison industry.
I'm either having a TMI or paranoia breakdown.
Lisa
Last one, I promise.
The Great AG Boom
They are also in deep w/the corn gas producers. This video talks about wheat/ag prices and what is the driving force and why their stock is a good bet.
lisa;
Thanks for not taking offence at what I said. It just made me laugh how those posts were listed together but so far apart in content. Maybe it my strange sense of humor sometimes LOL!
God Bless!
On Jan Markell's site this week.
Dr. David Reagan talk and Joel Rosenberg Q&A
Lisa, Shalom. That stuff about Monsanto is truly frightening. I saw something about this on the CBS News last Saturday. What gets me is that announcement about Monsanto purchasing that Dutch seed factory. Now, if the European Court can bring a lawsuit against Microsoft charging them with violating European anti-trust laws, why can't they work to prevent this deal going through?
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Lisa, Shalom! If you find something "Catholic", go ahead and post it. If it contains incorrect information about Catholic teaching, I'll provide correct information.
As a point of interest, I've come across some material that I've been hesitating to post on here. Specifically, they are prophecies by Catholic saints concerning the end times. One of the saints around 400 AD wrote about a "diabolical device" that would allow you to speak with someone on the opposite side of the world. I'm trying to organize what I've found into some semblance of order and I hope to post them here in a couple of days.
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A flood as in the days of Noah? Flood predictions from the National Weather Service:
Significant River Flood Outlook
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Jim, I would love to see what you have about the saints' prophecies! I have wondered for some time about a "vision" I heard about predicting the genocide in Rwanda. I believe it was Mary, but I don't remember the details.
FYI, I am not Catholic, I attend a Baptist church which I love, but I listen to what many of the different denominations say. I thoroughly believe in the gifts of the Spirit, I read Luther at times, I like the Episcopal Prayer Book (I think that's what it's called) and I have in the past attended a Weslyan Methodist Church, which was great! I even worked closely with Mennonites and have never seen such a trustworthy bunch. I have a problem with "churches" which deny things such as the atonement, or hell, or have another prophet (such as Joseph Smith), but I think we can learn much from mainline denominations without having to be members.
So, even if what you have to say causes me to think, "hmmm, I don't know about that one", I have come to value your opinions.
Blessings
Here is an article that may be of interest to some. It concerns the social gospel and how it relates to the real Gospel. It may also relate to what jib is saying about the christian manifesto.
The Kingdom of God Won't Come Through Big Government
Commentary on the News
Saturday, May 03, 2008
Jan Markell
Linda Harvey writes in World Net Daily that Christian churches should have caught on to the quasi-Christianity of Jim Wallis and Sojourners by now. Unfortunately, a "Social Justice Revival" came to her church recently. But sadly, the gospel was hard to find on the podium.
The election year faith posturing could not have been more transparent, yet many young attendees were misled to believe that this might be authentic "revived" Christianity.
She states, "What was on the menu? Perhaps how religion can prop up left-wing priorities like race divisiveness, perpetual poverty, and America-bashing as the important issues 'real' believers should care about, rather than fighting homosexual marriage and abortion."
Wallis states in his new book The Great Awakening that the right is obsessed with fighting abortion laws and stopping "gay rights." Both are way too divisive and not nearly as important as programs for the poor, climate change, and giving away American sovereignty, preferably to illegal immigrants. The Christian right does not care about the poor and many other social issues, according to Jim Wallis.
Wallis, his associate Tony Campolo, and many others who emphasize the social gospel are sadly now called "evangelicals" or "progressive evangelicals." These advocates for social justice go beyond the antics of the religious left and suggest that the kingdom of God on earth will come about through big government. They stress the "red letters of the Bible," and are often called "red letter Christians."
They would advocate some of the following:
• Christians are too war-like when we should love our enemies.
• Universal health care should be provided by the government.
• The U.S. should pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan and address the real problem of terrorism by creating a Palestinian state and addressing the root cause, poverty.
• Christians should be offering sanctuary to all illegal aliens.
• The U.S. should cut the military budget and expand wealth-redistribution programs.
In other words, since such concepts and issues are the red letters of Jesus brought into the 21st century, "red letter Christians" have just about made Jesus a socialist. Jesus also said that we must be born again (John 3:7) but you likely won't ever hear this crowd talk about that.
Apparently at Harvey's church, money, guaranteed jobs, and worldly goods better be part of the package or else Jesus can just pack up and go right back to Israel - whoops, I mean "Palestine." So the pastor of the church and Wallis suggest that the church today has "failed." Harvey states, "Well, next time there's a Katrina or a tsunami, we conservative Christians might want to boycott the relief efforts, stay home from mission trips, and let's just see if the deficit is made up from the 'social justice left' or, perhaps, a coming Democratic administration's expanded social programs."
While Wallis gets standing ovations on college campuses including my alma mater, Bethel University in St. Paul, Minnesota, there are many who join me in saying that the religious left doesn't frame my priorities, my gospel, or my vote.
Jesus' perspective pervades the entire Bible, not just the red letters. There is nothing in the red letters that is at odds with the rest of the Bible. There is no contradiction between the red letters and the black letters -- but not to "red letter Christians."
When one of these men visits your church, would you ask them about spreading the good news of sacrifice, repentance, forgiveness of sins, spiritual renewal, and rebirth? Ask them to tone down the news of redistributing the wealth, faith in government, the gospel of global warming, and moral relativism.
To better understand this, visit the "Spiritual Deception" category at my Web site.
God Bless!
Hi GT,
Thank you for sharing that article. It speaks exactly about the turmoil I have in dealing with my parents in recent years.
I grew up in rural PA and both of my parents were raised in rural areas in farming communities surrounded by working class families, etc. So the issues they have been saturated with all their lives involve the very things that article highlights, esp. the poverty issue. It took many years after I married and moved away to the suburbs to see that there were bigger issues involved in choosing your political persuasion. In my hometown, both parties believed that abortion and homosexuality were wrong, for example, but you were Democrat because your parents were teachers or farmers and you were Republican because your parents were more likely to be higher educated and involved in business. The moral issues were never discussed but now I see that that's where the parties have drawn their lines. My parents are still loyal to their party, however. I can't totally blame them because they still live in a small town where unemployment is increasing and businesses are leaving. They're isolated from the bigger issues, unless they watch the nightly news.
Until a few years ago, I couldn't have imagined leaving the Democratic party either. It felt like treason to all the people I knew back home. But living closer to the city, I began to see other issues I couldn't ignore, so I switched to Independant.
They know it and think I've sold my soul to my Republican in-laws whom they regard as upper-crust and hoity-toity because they have lived in much more comfortable surroundings all their lives. The funny thing is, my in-laws are totally not upper-crust in our area and my father-in-law doesn't have a college degree. He comes from a solid working class lineage and my mother-in-law is the daughter of Irish immigrants. But they're Republican mostly for the values issues, having grown up in the city all their lives and seen the issues that my family out in the country never had to deal with. I think if our parents could somehow forget that they are registered in different parties, they'd actually agree on most subjects! Having them in the same house over the weekend was a major cause of my stress, but thankfully (even in this election year) the trigger topics never came up and we had a good time. I'm just going to keep praying for them to have teachable spirits and growing discernment.
One another topic, I need to apologize for not following up with my request last week about the topic of multiple raptures. I was the one who asked for a refresher on it and then I didn't explain why. I read everyone's comments and thank you for them. I didn't mean to stir up another debate about who, when and where but I'll briefly explain why I asked.
A week or more ago, Lisa posted some thoughts along the line of whether or not someone was truly saved based on the fruits that they bear and what about Christians who have no interest in watching the times, etc. It's a topic I've mulled over quite a bit as well because I'm surrounded by so many friends/family members who have absolutely no clue or no interest in the topic. So I began to wonder if Scripture had anything to say about a division of believers in end times. I've always believed that the difference was in 'crowns' or rewards given in Heaven, but I felt I needed more exploration on the topic to make sure I wasn't going along with traditions over Scripture. The thought occured to me (without any input from the Bible...just a random thought) that maybe a rapture in stages was a possibility. "Watching" believers would be ready to go at first, then believers who weren't ready would be further refined and ready to go at a second stage. Then I remembered that there had been some discussion about mutliple raptures back at Joel's, but I couldn't remember the reasons given, so I asked about it in my post.
Now, before anyone gets worried, the thought was ONLY a random thought passing through my mind as I mulled over the concerns I had about these family/friends who don't seem to care about the times. It's not something I'm proprosing or trying to support with Scripture. I'm still sticking with my pre-trib single rapture belief. But I felt I needed to clarify my original post since I never followed up on it and it did cause a bit of fresh debate on the rapture timing topic.
Well, gotta get some housework done so I'll wrap this up.
Blessings,
Jen
PS. Lisa, I forgot to mention that you're starting to remind me of Erin Brockovich! LOL!
Blessings,
Jen
Came across this this morning..
Rice applies more pressure
What will this result in for us back here? We're getting lots of warnings...
Blessings,
Jen
yes GT that is a lot of what I'm talking about. These guys want us to let our culture go to hell literally and figuratively and concentrate on stuff that does less to advance the kingdom like global warming. We should be good stewards of the earth but I take that more to mean proper land management, not wasting resources and not worshiping the creation over the creator which is so often what the green movement does.
we are to have the mind of Christ, we are commanded to love all, to have the fruit of the Spirit, to give to Caesar what is Caesar's but really what does that mean on a grander scale than just eh individual so a couple of thoughts-
1 We are supposed to have the mind of Christ-which I generally take to mean to call a sin a sin (as well as other things like compassion, patience etc) so what did Jesus do with His culture? He did engage the culture of His day and call for a change. He called for change on both an individual level (the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, the apostles) and a national level (the moneychangers at the temple was more a national problem I think than an individual one and the religious leaders of the day). Sometimes he spoke the truth in love-when dealing with the individual and sometimes he did not-see the money changers and religious leaders. Paul also called for cultural change although on more of a personal level than national level. Convert enough individuals and the overall culture will change? I'm going to guess that when Christ spoke out on national (by this I mean Israeli not roman-interesting though that Christ never actually had much teaching on dealing with an actual immoral ruling government on social policies)failings His comments weren't exactly welcome and likely caused a bit of division. In fact wasn't that one of the "charges" that the Jewish leaders raised to Pilate that "he stirs up the Jews"?
2-the problem however that I see with just working on an individual level in this time is that the government wants to legislate immorality-abortion,gay marriage etc. So if Christ had been faced with the government of his day legislating immorality (not just committing immorality which I am more than sure they did if you can believe half the programs on the Roman rulers) what would his response have been? I doubt highly that he would have totally left the subject alone.
I personally think we should be speaking out on a national level about these things and trying to prevent them. Telling people they are living in sin and committing sinful behavior isn't going to be popular and likely is going to cause some hard feelings. I would submit that if Christ were dealing with an individual as an individual he would speak in love to that person about whatever they were doing however if he were speaking on any other level I don't think he would be speaking in love.
Jen
some off the cuff remarks
you poor thing. We have only one democrat to deal with and that's an inlaw. She would fall very neatly in the red letter Christian camp I think. I have dealt with similar issues with my family only over church attendance. I was raised Baptist and my dad nearly had a coronary when I started attending a Southern Baptist church. He didn't squeak much at all when we started attending a Presby church here in town. I suspect if we had to leave this church and go back to a baptist church he might heave a sigh of relief although I am intrigued with the calvary chapel folks and we do have one here in town. I think however attending a Charismatic church might be more over the top than the Presby church.
regarding the multiple rapture thing-as I recall Boatman was the one who thought that there might be three raptures. On pre trib for those who came to Christ during the church age, one at the mid trib time for those who came to Christ during the tribulation but before the AOD and one at the end of the trib time for those who came to Christ after the AOD but before the second coming of Christ to reign on the earth. He can correct me if I have misinterpreted what he said. I don't believe it but as Marge said the prophecy about calling Christ out of Egypt didn't make a whole lot of sense either until after the fact.
I would hope that those who are actively watching for Christ would be actively doing something for Christ. Similar to Joel. There is no question in my mind that he truly believes we are at the end of time yet he isn't just sitting back with a let it happen attitude. He is out there working to sound the alarm and is actively working to bless Israel and her neighbors. He believes we are living in the end times but he lives like we aren't. I think perhaps there will be greater rewards for those who watch but I don't think that those who aren't actively watching will be left behind to be further refined.
JIB -
re: your 7:32 post
I like how your mind works!
:-)
I have my moments.
I think in addition to my reasoning being logical it is also scripturally accurate. I have noticed that some Christians fail to apply the rules of logic to some of the things that they are saying since if one actually follows their reasoning out to it's logical conclusion sometimes one ends up with something that might actually contradict scripture. Logic isn't a dirty word.
Hi jib,
Thanks for your comments. Yes, it's been a struggle esp. in the last few years as I see things spinning further away from the core (isn't that chaos theory?) and my family sees the same thing, but it doesn't impact them in any meaningful way. (To be fair, my in-laws have no interest in end times either. They're waiting for things to swing back upward, just like things have throughout history.) I suppose if I had married a farm boy and stayed near them I'd feel the same as my mom and dad. Interestingly, my dad now admits that "the end" is probably approaching whereas last year when I brought up the topic of end times, he scoffed and said well then he'd better cancel all his magazine subscriptions. He also feels that there isn't a "way back" for our society because with each successive generation, the know-how to say 'enough' and restart the values we are losing grows less and less. In his mind, it's not a pendulum, it's an hourglass. And I guess that's Scriptural, but it frustrates me to no end that they're willing to go along and be sand slipping through with the rest. These are the people who gave me my faith roots and my mom is known as the Jesus freak in our family (she had a powerful, tangible salvation moment during a Bible study as an adult when I was young and since then has been gung-ho to spread the Word, but it's the red-letter words now....that's a very good description, by the way. I plan to use that if I get an opportunity to discuss this further with them.)
Some time ago when I was praying over this issue, the Lord gave me the Scripture that Jesus (ironically) spoke about the fact that the poor with always be with us. It was an epiphany of sorts because I realized at that moment that no matter what efforts are made by any political or charitable group, the poverty problem is not going to be resolved in this age. We're given the command to reach out to and aid those in need, but according to Jesus, we're not to expect that the condition of poverty will ever be eliminated. So the groups that do that, although honorable and morally sound, will never be fully successful. I don't want to sound harsh and it certainly hasn't deterred me from giving to various outreaches, but it was a thought I had never considered before.
I think alot of these red-letter groups are focusing their mission on just that, at the expense of sharing Truth and doing the tough love teaching that WILL have a lasting and permanent impact.
Lots to think about and pray over...
Blessings,
Jen
just so you all know
my response to Alesia was not meant as arrogant as it sounds-really. Had we been conversing face to face you also might have caught the dryness with which is was spoken as well as some of the sarcasm and irony. not sure that this explanation makes it any better but thought I'd give it a shot.
Jen
hour glass-intriguing concept
just to dig my hole a little deeper the last post was in reference to the logic comment not the I have my moments comment which I should have put a smiley face after. :-)
I think I'll shut up now
~giggle~
I don't think anyone took it that way JIB - It's cool. ;-)
boy, I hope we don't do 29 more comments before Hyde wakes - I have nothing prepared & I know he does!
BTW: I think Lisa is secretly the President of the X-Files Fan Club!
bwuhahahahaha
(I loved that show too)
Alesia,
Thanks for the post on cancer! I am still lurking but finding it difficult doing mom's taxi with the kids, homework, sports, grocery shopping, posting or trying to, as well as running a business. A bit much at the moment...
Still enjoying catching up though.
God bless to all my brothers and sisters.
jeri.
Shalom, all! Wow. What a perfect way to waste an entire morning. I was going to comment referring back to the author of a book (a couple of books, actually) that I recently read, although I couldn't remember the author's name. I knew I had been to his website, but lo and behold, I hadn't boomarked it. I knew that SOMEONE had posted an excerpt from the book (about the Arc of the Covenant), but I didn't know when. I knew I could just load up all the comment pages one after another and search for the word "covenant", but why do it that way when I can just use Google to search the comments. Right?
WRONG! I've spent the last couple of hours trying to find how to get Google to search the comments on Blogger. Apparently, Google doesn't index them. At least I couldn't find any way that lets mere mortals do that. The only solutions I could find were geared for the blogger his-or-herself, and usually amounted to copying the entire blog (comments and all) to your hard drive, both for backup and to search.
So, after spending 3 hours trying to find an easier way to do the search, I finally gave up and loaded the comments for each March entry into a separate Firefox tab. Within five minutes, I had th answer. I remember reading somewhere that you know you're a geek if you spend two hours arguing over the expected results of an experiment that will take five minutes to do. I think I've just proved that.
Oh, and the poster was Harold, the author was Grant Jeffrey, he runs Grant Jeffrey Ministries (which I now have bookmarked), and wrote the book “Unveiling Mysteries of the Bible".
Now I can actually write my comment, if the discussion hasn't gone too far off track in the last three hours. Cheers.
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Here is more on the Cyclone. I remember when it started with 350 or so dead, then blood brought's post of 10,000 and now look at it.
Cyclone Update
The government there won't let the US or France assist them. (I bet they'll take the money though.)
More on the Chile Volcano. What a mess. Look at their homes.
Chile Volcano
Why do I always do this?
Chile Volcano
Jen, Shalom!
I really enjoyed your post of 7:21 AM, esp. with the bit about political party affiliation. Having grown up in a small town, I knew exactly what you were talking about! It reminded me of an old "Lake Wobegon" story by Garrison Kiellor, where he talked about how all the Lutherans in town drove Fords and all the Catholics bought Buicks or Chevys; and how once a Lutheran was thinking about buying a Chevy until the Lutheran pastor sat him down and told the man that the pastor knew for a fact that the owners of the Chevy dealership were taking the money from selling Chevies and using it to buy Korean orphans to raise as Catholics! Where I grew up, political party affiliation was almost as important as your religion, although it didn't break along the same lines.
And GT, that was a really good posting of 6:23 AM. I was thinking about how the illegal alien problem is so much different today than it was 20 years ago. Back in the 80's, most of the illegal aliens I knew or knew of were from Central America, where there were so many civil wars. Since the US Government was usually on the side of the people in power, it denied refugee status to all these people running away from the wars. In that context, it made sense for me to help these people find safety. Now, however, it appears to be strictly a matter of economics. It's not entire families coming here for safety, it's the husbands and older sons coming to find work to send money back home. It's a form of economic slavery that seems geared towards breaking up families. I'd like to see some of these "red-letter Christians" work to build sustainable industries in Mexico and Central America (i.e., "address the root cause, poverty"), so the families can stay together.
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Lisa, Shalom! About the Cyclone, I've heard that rather than let international NGOs in, the government wants aid to be sent to the local Buddhist monasteries for distribution. Don't know if they're set up to handle things like food distribution, but it's an idea.
And as for the volcano in Chile, while things look bad now, within about 6 years this will be a boon for the area. The volcanic ash should be very fertile, and if someone is very industrious, volcanic ash makes BEAUTIFUL glass for decoration. My ex-wife and I once bought a glass Christmas tree ornament that had been made from the volcanic ash of Mount St. Helens. To this day, that simple ball is the most beautiful example of glasswork I have ever seen.
For a story closer to home, here's a story about vog, or volcanic smog in Hawaii. Apparently Mount Kilauea has doubled the amount of sulfur dioxide it's emitting, which is killing plants and causing respiratory problems in people.
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Alesia-that's funny! I think I may have seen the X-Files a couple times. It's an investigating type show?
Jen, you could be right about Erin Brockovich. My husband did some work on that case so I'll see if he thinks I'm starting to resemble her.
And to think I used to be an Interior Designer. What happened?
(:
Oh gosh, Jim, don't get me started on Chevies! LOL!
My father-in-law is a dyed in the steel wool Chevy man (red preferably) and anyone who pulls into his driveway had best know it! When I was dating his son and my future husband, I visited their home for the first time in my Pontiac Grand Am (red, fortunately). I had no idea that I had just failed my first test!
That was almost as bad as my effort to get on my mother-in-law's parents' sweet side by sending them a card on St. Patrick's Day (remember, they were Irish immigrants.) It never occurred to me that they were NORTHERN Irish and Protestant to the core!
Thought you'd get a chuckle of out that one :-)
Blessings,
Jen
Jib, Shalom! You wrote:
I think in addition to my reasoning being logical it is also scripturally accurate. I have noticed that some Christians fail to apply the rules of logic to some of the things that they are saying since if one actually follows their reasoning out to it's logical conclusion sometimes one ends up with something that might actually contradict scripture. Logic isn't a dirty word.
This statement by you is what made me spend 3 hours this morning trying to find the author and title of a book I recently read (“Unveiling Mysteries of the Bible" by Grant Jeffrey). I don't have the book at hand -- I checked it out from the library -- so I'm going to be a bit vague in the details. In it Rev. Jeffrey tackles the lineage of Jesus. Short version: The different genealogies in Scripture (Mat. 1:1-17, for Mary, and Luke 3:23-38, for Joseph) both fulfill different prophecies. Mary is related to David through Solomon, while Joseph is related to David through Nathan. Rev. Jeffrey spends an entire chapter on this, showing how Joseph could NOT be the biological father of Jesus, because Joseph's lineage passes through a king of whom the Lord promised, that none of his descendants would sit upon the throne of Israel. He also makes a comparison to the Ark of the Covenant, about how it had to be perfect, without defect or stain, and in the end concludes that if Joseph had been the biological father of Jesus then Jesus would have had the Original Sin passed down to Him, making Him unworthy of His Sacrifice.
However, Rev. Jeffrey does this in such a way that one is forced to conclude that he believes Original Sin is passed down ONLY through the father! In other words, either women do not contain the stain of Original Sin and so can't pass it on to their children, or the children only inherit Original Sin from their fathers and not their mothers, which I don't think is right seeing as how children inherit all other characteristics from both mother and father.
The sum of the chapter in this book, is that Rev. Jeffrey proves the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: the teaching that G_D used the Sacrifice of her Son to preserve Mary from inheriting Original Sin, so that the child she bore would have been conceived without sin and so be a perfect Sacrifice. Since the Ark of the Covenant contained the glory of G_D and was without defect or stain (so much so that no man was allowed to touch it), so also the Ark of the New Covenant (Mary) was to be without defect or stain so she could carry Jesus.
In any case, your description of logic not being a dirty word made me think of this. You can either deny the Immaculate Conception because it isn't specifically mentioned in Scripture, or you can take all these descriptions from Scripture and say, "This must be so, because it follows from this and this and this, which we know to be Scriptural truths."
Let the flaming begin!
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So many comments to comment on, so little time.
I, too, am surrounded be red-letter Christians. It tells me how badly I need to continue to keep my focus on Jesus and reading His word. I pray for discernment for all of us! I find it difficult to find that line between speaking the truth in love and holding my tongue, being checked by the Spirit. I have to trust God to help me, because on my own I will blow it every time.
One of my sins is cowardice. So, maybe God is letting me be surrounded by people with such different belieifs so that I will gain strength to stand up to the apostacy/delusion of the end times.
I am really wondering what will be in this manifesto. And, I'm wondering who the signers are. I greatly respect Os Guinness and am hoping that there is nothing seriously wrong in it.
Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Alesia, I am a closet X-Files fan! It's one of those new-agey, aliens are with us kind of shows, so I have to admit I am cautious about mentioning it to some of my Christian friends. (Evidence of the cowardly lion in me) Maybe that is compromising my beliefs? I am willing to give anything up, if I'm led.
Am I rambling? Do I need a nap?
Help me out, Jim...
You said, "the teaching that G_D used the Sacrifice of her Son to preserve Mary from inheriting Original Sin, so that the child she bore would have been conceived without sin and so be a perfect Sacrifice."
I'm not clear how the future sacrifice of her son gave Mary a pass on original sin...from her birth? At the moment of conception?
Blessings,
Jen
Anne, Shalom! You wrote:
Jim, I would love to see what you have about the saints' prophecies! I have wondered for some time about a "vision" I heard about predicting the genocide in Rwanda. I believe it was Mary, but I don't remember the details.
I'll see what I can find for you on that vision. If I remember correctly, there were 7 visionaries, who predicted the genocide if people did not return to Jesus and pray. However, of the 7, only 4 were declared to be authentic.
This is something that makes prophecy in the Catholic Church an event that makes bishops shake their heads and reach for the aspirin. For example, there is a priest who has been reportedly been receiving interior locutions from Mary for the past 20 years. (An "interior locution" is basically where you hear voices in your head. Unlike the voices heard by schizophrenics and the like, or by demonic influence, these voices are described as coming from the source of the person's being. Only that person can hear them. An "exterior locution" is where other people in the room can hear the locution, although they cannot understand what is said, or it only sounds like the rustling of leaves.) This priest went on to form an organization dedicated to improving the prayer life of priests. None of his locutions has been ruled as authentic, but his early locutions have received an "Imprimatur". This means that the writings have been examined either by the local bishop or by someone delegated by the bishop to do so, and have been found to be free of doctrinal errors. It's not a mark of approval by the bishop or anything like that, just a statement that you can read this without being exposed to error.
The problem is, there have been problems with his later locutions, and unless you're a big believer in conspiracy theories none of his prophecies have come true. So you have a case where you cannot believe any of his prophecies, yet his earlier writings have been found to be free of error and have been very enriching spiritually.
Like I say, it's one reason why you don't find a lot of prophecy in the Catholic Church.
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HUMOR FOR LEXOPHILES
I wondered why the baseball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
Police were called to a day care where a three-year-old was resisting a rest.
Did you hear about the guy whose whole left side was cut off? He's all right now.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.
The butcher backed up into the meat grinder and got a little behind in his work.
To write with a broken pencil is pointless.
When fish are in schools they sometimes take debate.
The short fortune teller who escaped from prison was a small medium at large.
A thief who stole a calendar got twelve months.
A thief fell and broke his leg in wet cement. He became a hardened criminal.
Thieves who steal corn from a garden could be charged with stalking.
We'll never run out of math teachers because they always multiply.
When the smog lifts in Los Angeles , U .C.L.A.
The math professor went crazy with the blackboard. He did a number on it.
The professor discovered that her theory of earthquakes was on shaky ground.
The dead batteries were given out free of charge.
If you take a laptop computer for a run you could jog your memory.
A dentist and a manicurist fought tooth and nail.
A bicycle can't stand alone; it is two tired.
A will, is a dead giveaway.
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.
A backward poet writes inverse.
In a democracy it's your vote that counts; in feudalism, it's your count that votes.
A chicken crossing the road: poultry in motion.
With her marriage, she got a new name and a dress.
Show me a piano falling down a mine shaft and I'll show you A- flat miner.
When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds.
The guy who fell onto an upholstery machine was fully recovered.
A grenade fell onto a kitchen floor in France , resulted in linoleum blownapart.
You are stuck with your debt if you can't budge it.
Local Area Network in Australia : The LAN down under.
He broke into song because he couldn't find the key.
A calendar's days are numbered.
A lot of money is tainted: 'Taint yours, and 'taint mine.
A boiled egg is hard to beat.
He had a photographic memory which was never developed.
A plateau is a high form of flattery.
Those who get too big for their britches will be exposed in the end.
When you've seen one shopping center you've seen a mall.
If you jump off a Paris bridge, you are in Seine .
When she saw her first strands of gray hair, she thought she'd dye.
Lori, those are great! Reminds me of the enjoyable yet hard part of teaching English to foreigners....the idiomatic language.
And my favorite - the three-year-old resisting a rest - which is what I'm dealing with right now!
Blessings,
Jen
Jim
one of you has it backwards with Christ's lineage
the LEGAL right to rule came via Joseph (since only men can rule it would have to be via the father) which would mean via Solomon. That line was indeed cursed such that no one from that line could sit
on the throne of David. This is the main reason for the Virgin Birth.
Mary's lineage is what makes Christ of davidic lineage and thus gives him the required bloodline to be on David's throne.
it was very important that Joseph recognize Christ as his first born son although no biological relationship exists since were the curse not in operation Joseph not Herod would have been king. Makes Joseph kind of amazing doesn't it
Actually your argument that the sin nature coming via the father making the immaculate conception true doesn't hold water since I believe the immaculate conception concept strictly applies to Mary's conception not Christ's conception.
Jen, Shalom! You wrote:
You said, "the teaching that G_D used the Sacrifice of her Son to preserve Mary from inheriting Original Sin, ..." I'm not clear how the future sacrifice of her son gave Mary a pass on original sin...from her birth? At the moment of conception?
It was from the moment of her conception, which is when Catholics believe the person is ensoulled. (That's why we give her the title "Immaculate Conception.") Keep in mind that heaven exists outside of time. There is no past or future, only the eternal now. Lots of people find that very disturbing, and if you're one of those, then just stuff that idea in a box and put it in a corner, out of the way, and look at it this way:
Imagine walking along a road at night, and falling into a hole. You need someone to help pull you out. In Christian terms, Jesus is that person who pulls you out of the hole. BUT another way is to not fall in the hole in the first place. In Catholic terms, we see Jesus as having prevented Mary from falling into the hole in the first place.
We believe that Jesus died for ALL men FOR ALL TIME. We know this because of the Creed: "...suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He desended to the Place of the Dead, on the third day He rose again." Why is there a need for the Place of the Dead? If the Sacrifice of Jesus was only for those who lived and died after Jesus lived, died, and rose again, then there would be no need for a Place of the Dead. All those who had died before Jesus would simply have been sent to Hell. The same applies if Jesus hadn't died on the cross. There would be no hope of salvation, so everyone would have been sent to Hell.
Therefore, the Salvific Nature of Jesus's death on the cross extends for both everyone who died before Jesus as well as for everyone who died afterward. It provided protection for those who had died before, and in the process, provided protection for His mother to be preserved from Original Sin.
Clear as mud?
<><
OK, I pronounce my innocence! I did not start this Catholic debate neither am I going to participate.
Rather, I will gladly read in silence.
Lisa
Hi alesia,
I am still around, I just haven't had a chance to read the blog in a couple of days. I probably have missed all kinds of great stuff! :-(
As usual, I have too many books on the go right now and I am getting bogged down. Reading all the news articles lately is also very time consuming. So...to help lighten the load, I went to the Creation bookstore (I love that store!) and picked up another book to read. :-)
I picked up "23 Minutes in Hell", which if memory serves me correctly, you said you liked. I also picked up another copy of "Mere Christianity" and "The Last Jihad" (I lent my copy to someone and they never returned it).
There is a guy at work I have been witnessing to for a while. He is extremely intelligent and quite the intellectual. I have so far talked him into reading "The Case for Faith", "The Case for a Creator", and he got partway through "The Case for Christ" before he said "uncle". Today, I talked him into reading "Mere Christianity" (hence the reason for my trip to the Creation bookstore today). I am really impressed that he keeps reading the books I give him. Only if all non-believers were that co-operative. :-)
I have been very slowly working my way through a book called "Notes, Explanatory and Practical, On The Book of Revelation" by Albert Barnes. I couldn't find a new copy of the book anywhere, but I did manage to order a copy that was printed in 1851. I have to be careful not to wreck it as I read it.
Reading this book has really made me rethink some of my views on the end times. There is so much in this book. I am slowly organizing my thoughts and writing down some of what I have gleaned from this book. I will hopefully have something to post in the near future.
God Bless,
Harold
Mary is the ark of the covenant?
Where do these crazy teaching come from?
Good to hear from you, Harold. Mere Christianity is an old favourite of mine too. I'd be interested to hear any new thoughts you'd have on Revelation/end times scenarios. I have Clarence Larkin's books and I find I frequently go back to his take on Revelation.
Hi Jim,
Clear as muddy water, perhaps :-)
I've learned something today that I never realized I didn't know...the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary's conception, not Jesus'. I'll just blame my Protestant upbringing on that one ;-)
That brings up another question for me that I never knew I needed to ask....so Catholics believe that Jesus provided this one-time example of protection against original sin to his future mother? How does that fit with Romans 3 (All have fallen short of the glory of God)? I've always understood that even Mary needed redemption which came through accepting her son as her Savior, though she was considered favored because of her willingness to serve God in such an important and unique way.
No gas on the fire here....just gathering facts!
Blessings,
Jen
Hi mac,
You have posted some links to some really great articles over the last week or so. They have been too numerous for me to mention, so I will just say thanks for all of them. :-)
I don't think I have heard of Clarence Larkin before. I will have to check him out.
Albert Barnes presents a very compelling case that much of Revelation has already taken place. It really made my head spin when I started reading his Revelation book. However, he maybe absolutely correct! There is a lot I don't agree with his book, but Albert wrote this book in the early 1800's. He did not have the advantage that we do of knowing that Israel was going to get its country back in 1948. That would really slant your point of view living 100 years before that happened.
Albert has written a commentary on pretty much every book in the Bible (maybe every book as I haven't bothered to check if he excluded any). He got up at 4 or 5 a.m. everyday and wrote his commentaries until 9:00 a.m.. He would then start performing his pastoral duties for the rest of the day. I wish I had his discipline!
You can read most of them online if you go looking. I also downloaded a pdf copy of his Revelation commentary for free.
Grumpy and I are still talking about Mark Blitz's blood red moon videos. We both think that this maybe the biggest discovery in end times prophecy ever! It maybe even bigger than Earthquake Resurrection and you know how much we like that book! :-)
God Bless,
Harold
Donna - Wasn't that Dan Brown in the DaVinci Code? hehehehe
Harold - Glad to hear from you! I know exactly what you mean! I keep buying books & can't catch up to read them all before my eyes get big & want to buy more.
"23 minutes in hell" was disturbing, but good in that after reading I just wanted to tap everyone I met on the shoulder & say "Hey, I need to tell you something..." :-)
Jen - Good question/statement!
Larkins wrote his books before Israel became a nation, yet he expected this to happen and wrote as such.
Charts and Maps by Clarence Larkin
Hal Lindsey Injured in Fall At Home
New post is up.
I need another coffee!
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