When we worship the Lord, let’s remember that He is in control. Nothing alarms Him, or takes Him by surprise. Nothing is too big for Him to handle, or so small it escapes His attention. When the winds of my world begin to blow, He remains seated. When raging waves surround me, He governs their temper…I need not be moved … Because the Lord is seated and sovereign…He alone is sovereign.
- Ronald James -
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136 comments:
still beat ya! ha
Not hard to do.
Beat me as well...grumble...mutter.
Prayers needed.
MORE than 200 relief workers in quake-hit China have been buried by mudflows over the past two days, the Transport Ministry reported on Monday.
Hey Lisa,
Your comments about the RenFair and an article I saw this morning about Putin and the return of the Tsars reminded me of something I found out last week when I met an old teaching friend for lunch.
Her husband is a higher-up exec in a software company and they regularly travel to other countries for his work (she tags along as a tourist). I asked her what she was going to be doing over the summer and she said that over the 4th holiday she'll be with her husband in St. Petersburg, Russia, at a conference that some Russian software company is hosting for other companies they do business with. The final evening of the conference will include a formal ball and get this - she had to send in her dress measurements and her husband's clothing sizes as they are getting custom-made gowns and suits in the style of the old Russian tsars. I said "like Anastasia?" and she said yes...it's a whole re-enactment of that period.
I found it interesting on a variety of levels.....I told her to send photos so I could see what things looked like. I guess everyone dressing like Putin wouldn't be much fun ;-0
Well, off to star the day.
Blessings,
Jen
Oops!
Start the day, rather. Hopefully it will be a gold star day, too!
Another great post, Alesia or Mac!
Bin Laden lashes out at Arab leaders
Article and video.
Alesia
most amusing with the comments on the last post. I take it you don't have even a bedside lamp? the have little computer lights that plug into usb port made especially for laptops.
Lisa
while if we need to be at Grany's cave we'd likely be there sounds like Scott would be of more use. You really don't want me plying my trade outside the hospital.
Jen
wow, sounds fantastic. Man I would love to go to a costume ball like that. I have always wanted a to attend a ball done in period style from either the Georgian/Regency England but more especially from the late Tsarist period of Russia.
didn't read the article the picture was scary enough
Obama in Oregon
Children cause unhappy parents so say Oz Profs
are they kidding me? even though I work the time I spend with my son is the highlight of my day!
I wanted to link you to the Mark Blitz site but this was a newsletter and could not find it.
I thought Overcomer would especially like this and to tell you the truth-If I had a continual burden like I did the other day I would also feel strongly about rushing into the midst of the fire instead of watching from the sidelines.(But my kids-take them up-I could get much more done!)
Here it is:
"Shalom to one and all! Reading the response is like that parlor game "Pass It On." More than a few conclusions have been drawn on something other than what I said.
From reading some of the blogs, I find people are really misunderstanding what I said and what I am trying to say. It may be because of different definitions of terms.
First off, concerning the rapture, never do I mention the word. When I talk about the second coming I am not referring to the rapture but to Messiah’s feet landing on the Mt of Olives in Zech 14. I am not setting dates for the rapture. The only dates I am giving is the dates Nasa gives us for eclipses and the dates God gives us on His calendar and then I bring in the connection. You can do whatever you want according to your own theology with this information. With much humor I say, “Put it in your own theological pipe and smoke it however you want.”
I did say, and again say, IF these eclipses in 2015 are what the Lord was referring to, then 2015 would look like a possible year for His feet to land on the Mt of Olives. And, IF this is true then the tribulation could, not would, start this fall at the Feast of Trumpets, (which technically is 2 days long: KJV Matthew 24:36 36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only). In light of all the prophetic events going on I would say it is likely but I’m not saying definitely. As far as the rapture, if you’re pretrib then 2008 could be interesting, if you’re midtrib, 2012 could be interesting, if you’re prewrath then 2014 might be interesting, if you’re a posttribber then 2015 might be interesting and if you’re amillennial just sit back and watch the show!
If you want my own personal view of the rapture it is this:
It’s not even on my radar! I’m not focused on it, I am focused on the mission at hand. I will work till Messiah comes. Believe me He will take whoever He wants to take, whenever He wants to take them and no one will lose points for being wrong. If your house is on fire and you escape are you satisfied that you are out or will you do all you can to get your children out as well? With any fire there are people rushing out and firemen rushing in. I guess it depends on what you feel you’re calling is. I don’t remember who, but someone said,
“Some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell;
but I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell!”
That is my motto. If the Lord wants to keep me here during the tribulation on a mission run, I’m happy to stay. If He wants me out, then I’m happy to go! It’s not my will or rapture theology that will take me or leave me but His will.
After the sin of the golden calf God told Moses to go on and take the children of Israel into the Promised Land, but He wasn’t going. Moses said, “Hey! If you ain’t goin, we ain’t goin!” So what God told Moses next, you only notice in Hebrew not in English. God said, “Okay I’ll go with you” but Moses said that is not good enough. The reason is that the word “you” was in the singular not the plural. So in effect God was saying He would go with Moses but not the children of Israel. Moses, even though God was going to be with him, was not satisfied unless God went with the whole group. That is the difference between a “Greek Mindset” where it is all about the individual and the “Hebrew Heart” which is it being all about the community. I have a Hebrew Heart. My relatives died in Auschwitz. And I say never again! I am a pit bull for Yeshua and He will have to pry me off the enemy before I let him take any more of my relatives! Come hell or high-water or the tribulation I am running to the sound of the roar! As a mother or father who sees their child about to be taken, like a laser I am focused on the rescue! The Father wants His children saved and until He calls me out I’m going in. I am not afraid to run into the fiery furnace if I know God is with me. This is the culmination of all of history! What angels and all those before us have been waiting for. My hearts cry is to put me in. When it’s all over I’d rather be telling of the miracles of being in the furnace and God’s protection rather than being outside as a spectator.
Remember when Messiah said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church! Gates are a defensive piece of armory, not offensive! The church has been terrified of being attacked by gates?! The truth here is that the gates are trying to keep people in captivity and the church is supposed to storm the gates of hell and rescue the people held captive! The truth is that Satan and his minions are terrified of us! It’s time to storm them and that’s my heart. Be Blessed! Listen to the song below and watch the video and may you be inspired to join me as we Wake, Watch and go to Work! Pass this on to other Warriors! We need to quit squabbling over the dating of the rapture and unite to the Work! Keep this going, time is short, and the battle is near! "
Wasn't that a great speech? Here is the video.
Run To the Battle
Strange link inside Jerry Goldens
The Golden Report
...every American should read very carefully for terrible things are about to happen there, and the government is getting ready for it American DeathCamps and the majority of Americans are living in total denial to what is happening or about to happen.
Maranatha soon...
Mike
Not wanting to clutter up the comments on this blog, especially since it is a long post, I have published a new article om my blog...
The Deception of the Nephilim
John
Lisa, WOW. Thanks for taking the time to post that. I'm going to email it to others along with the link for the video.
This expresses how I think:
"If the Lord wants to keep me here during the tribulation on a mission run, I’m happy to stay. If He wants me out, then I’m happy to go! It’s not my will or rapture theology that will take me or leave me but His will."
Pan-trib, right Jim? It will all pan out in the end.
Kathy, I read the excerpt for The Appearing and it does sound interesting. As far as the study goes, it definately gives good reasons for pre-wrath, but I think the above quote will be my motto, too, for awhile.
John, I know you asked me a question, but I was too tired to answer last night and now I'll have to go back to the last thread (is that the right term?) and see what it was again.
The case against Olmert strengthens...
State Prosecution Announces Suspicions Against Olmert
If I was to be cynical, I would say that this is an attempt to gather public sympathy, and delay any court proceedings againts him... Read the article to see why.
Olmert To Undergo Test for Prostate Growth
John
Anne,
You said,
Since the only sin that cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and taking the mark of the beast separates us from God permanently, do you think that the mark will somehow include blasphemy against the Spirit?
In the context of when Jesus said it, it was addressed to the Pharisees, because they would not accept that what He, Jesus was doing - all the miracles, signs, healings, casting out of demons, etc, was of God.
If that as the cae then, we need to be very careful that we do not do likewise. The Pharisses were thje religios leaders of the time, they probsably knew more abotu the Old Testament scriptures that we do today, and they STILL got it SO wrong.
As I have said before (and I am only paraphrasing Jesus), the traditions of men and religion are the two most dangerous impediments to real Christianity. They make, according to Jesus, the Word of God (that's both the written word - the Logos, the spoken word of power - the Rhema, and the Son of God Himself ineffective to be able to work in people's lives.
That is why the sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven - people who commit that sin have for all intents and purposes rejected Jesus, and have called the work of Holy Spirit the work of the devil.
As far as that relates to receiving the Mark of the Beast, if you have already rejected Jesus, why would you not accept the Mark?
John
John,
Don't tell me now that I have to post an article "The non-Deception of the Nephilim" on my blog.
Oh Bother.
I have enough on my plate at the moment. Now it's dealing with my own Church and those books.
texanforchrist,
That was some article. I'm going to scan outside for those reflectors. One of the "death camps" is not far from our house.
I did some study on the illuminati and also the Amero situation so if our economy does collapse to that degree- hate to say it but sounds somewhat plausible.
Here is the picture of the "Lady in Red". Looks like she's carved out of rock. That site said she could be a "sign" of the "Great Harlot". Although the Catholics might see her as being Mary.Jim?
Lady In Red
Hi Mike,
I read Jerry's message, too, but didn't follow that link til you posted it. I need to sleep with my blankie now! If any of that is true, it's right out of the Left Behind novels stuff. The thing that freaked me out the most was the rows and rows of plastic coffins. However, it occured to me that if the gov. was going to do mass elimination, would they take the time to bury everyone in plastic containers? Wouldn't that leave evidence behind and take alot more time? I thought perhaps they were made for the next natural disaster when bodies had to be removed quickly. In China, they're taking pictures and hair samples of all the bodies they find, then burying them in mass graves to stop the spread of disease. Small comfort for the families who will have to mourn their loved ones.
Now I need to go look for a yellow reflector on my mailbox!
Blessings,
Jen
Oops, forgot to mention the whole reason for posting....
My Bible reading today (I actually just flipped the Bible open and it came the Esther 5, the very same chapter we studied in church yesterday. I finished the whole book (through CH 10) and read that King Xerxes allowed the Jews to take revenge on their enemies on the 13th day of Adar. That stuck out to me because that article Mike posted from Jerry Golden's site mentioned that the evil elements of the NWO do a lot of their work on the 13th day of the month.
Haman had planned to have the Jews exterminated on the 13th of Adar, but because of God's intervention through Queen Esther, not only was Haman hanged that day, but all those against the Jews were destroyed as well. Just thought it was an interesting coincidence between church yesterday, my Bible reading today and the link Mike posted.
Blessings,
Jen
smile, somebody loves ya
Boatman,
I have a question for you.
I understand about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as your example in Jesus case because if you hinder people from believing in His miracles and say they are from an evil source then people will not believe they come from God and the Holy Spirit can't work in their hearts to save them.
So what about those of us who feel in Todd Bentley's case these "signs and wonders" are real but coming from and evil source and speak out against them?
I'll try this again...
I thought this might be of interest to folks, found at Prophecy Today
www.prophecytoday.com
Tony Blair says that he will be the president of Europe if they give him the power
May 19, 2008
As the EU prepares to name the first permanent president of the member-states, 27 of them now and sure to include additional states in the future, one name keeps surfacing as the very first European president, Tony Blair, the former PM of Great Britain.
French President Sarkozy, German Chancellor Merkel, Gordon Brown, current PM of the UK, and even US President George W. Bush have suggested Tony Blair would make a great president of Europe. In response to these suggestions, the former UK PM said that he is increasingly willing to put himself forward for the job if it comes with real power to make a difference.
Jimmy's Prophetic Prospective on the News
The EU with a permanent powerful president is a page out of Bible prophecy for the Last Days.
The former PM of the UK, Tony Blair, is today the Middle East Peace Envoy for the Quartet, the US, EU, UN and Russia. Blair has an office in Jerusalem where he has been playing a major role in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. This European leader has been holding discussions with some of his oldest allies on how he could mount a campaign to become the first full-time president of the European Council. The President of the European Council is a post created under the Lisbon Treaty and he would chair Europe's chief decision making body. The EU-Lisbon Treaty to be implemented in 2009 would set in place a perfect prototype of the political power and position that is called for in Bible prophecy.
Daniel, an ancient Jewish prophet, revealed 2,500 years ago a scenario that calls for the revival of the old Roman Empire. It will have a leader known as the Antichrist, a very powerful political leader, Daniel 9:7-24. Do not misunderstand me now, I am not saying that the EU is the revived Roman Empire and that Tony Blair is the Antichrist, what I am saying is that both the EU and Tony Blair are perfect prototypes of what Bible prophecy calls for in the Last Days.
I had met w/a friend a couple of weeks ago and told her the scoop on Gog/Magog and some other prophesies.
She's just told me her friend Dick Morris-(I think he was a former political advisor to Clinton)had mentioned to her w/o prompting that the US is going to war with Iran this summer. (Isn't that what we have been hearing?) He's a talk show host now.
Hi Lisa,
I wrote you some more at my blog. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I had photos I had to get edited.
Anne,
Thanks for taking the time to look at it. Kristen's novel is really enjoyable if you are looking for an end times novel that breaks the mold. I gave a review of it at Amazon.com
=)
...and I personally see her novel as more scripturally plausible than the Left Behind series, obviously! It has a great ending!!!
Lisa,
Very simply, you have fallen into the same error as the Pharisees.
Satan will not, ever, bring about healings and miracles, especially if the people involved are giving God the glory, as is happening in Florida. This is a work of God, even if some of the things Todd Bentley says and does may not be totally scriptural. As Jesus said, only he who has never sinned is in a position to throw stones.
Jesus harshly rebuked the Pharisees and scribes for their statements that he had a demon and was casting out demons in the power of the devil (Beelzebub). In fact it was these very comments that caused Jesus to make the statement about sinning (blaspheming) against the Holy Spirit being the unforgivable sin. See Matthew 12:21-37.
22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw.
23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
26 “If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
27 “And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29“Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.
30 “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 “Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
36 “But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
If someone casts out demons or heals someone through the Name of Jesus today, then it is God at work, irrespective of how off-the-wall the person doing the ministry appears to be. God has to honor His Word - the Name of Jesus is above everything. If we invoke that Name just as someone did in the Gospel accounts who did not appear to be a follower of Jesus, take note of what Jesus said about him to His disciples.
38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 “For he who is not against us is on our side.
41 “For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. [Mark 9:38-41]
Even if someone seems to be in error, and yet God is working miracles through that person's ministry, then God is in control NOT the devil.
There is too much talk of how the devil will try to delude Christians by false miracles and signs and wonders. This has reached the point where, unfortunately, MOST Christians will refuse to accept, or will challenge, every miracle or sign that happens, calling it of the devil. This is because, fundamentally, they have no REAL experience of the supernatural, rather they have been taught to believe this, and are too afraid to find out what the Bible actually says, and put it into practice.
According to Jesus "if you believe in My Name" you WILL be:
1) casting out demons;
2) speaking with new tongues;
3) taking up serpents [aka dealing with demonic forces];
4) drinking anything deadly, it will by no means hurt you;
5) laying hands on the sick, and they will recover.
[Mark 16:18
There are MANY, MANY things we do not know about the spirit realm. There is a lot of false teaching, and down right error and confusion in the Body of Christ on this subject, so much so, that, in my estimation, probably 80% or more would not be able to rightly judge the truth of any miracles, signs and wonders they saw. Most would immediately say it was of the devil - which is for all intents and purposes, the unforgivable sin, and the rest would not believe it, even if it happened in front of them. They would find a way to deny that it had happened, or say that it was not of God, or it was just a coincidence. I know, I've seen it happen too many times, in churches that profess to be spirit-filled!!.
Satan cannot and will not divide his own house - to do so will result in his own destruction. Therefore, until the Antichrist comes, and a"great delusion" is sent by God, it is actually going to very difficult for Satan to truly blind or deceive the elect, contrary to much teaching today, unless they persist in ignoring what the Word of God says.
In fact, the most damaging and deceiving force in action today is that of the traditions of men and religion masquerading as the true faith.
Stan doesn't have to do anything - we are doing it to ourselves, by allowing traditions and religion to make the Word of God of no effect in our lives and in our Churches.
Any Church that does not believe in healing for today is actually saying that the Word of God is lying. There is no other possible conclusion. I know that this may upset some who are reading this, but it comes down, simply to:
Do you, REALLY, believe what the Bible says. (That is actually a very good definition of faith in action).
Peter makes the statement that
"...[Jesus] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed.". [1 Peter 2:23].
It is not a question of whether healing is for today, it's the fact that Jesus' sacrifice has ALREADY paid the price for our healing, and if He has ALREADY paid for our healing, why on earth would we continue to accept sickness and disease in our bodies. That's just plain foolishness - brought about by the traditions and religion of men.
The Greek word iaomai translated "healed" in this passage means being cured and made whole in all forms of physical, mental and emotional and spiritual wholeness and health - literally "to cure (literally or figuratively):--heal, make whole".
It is NOT limited or only for being healed of our sins (which are the root cause of sickness anyway) - there is another word used for that in the NT - sozo, which correctly translates to being saved from our sins (see Luke 7:50).
Now either the Word is true, and we can walk in health and wholeness because of the stripes Jesus suffered 2000 years ago, or it is not. You cannot have it both ways, or even legitimately argue that God does not want to heal us. For does it not say in the Word that God said to the children of Israel:
I AM the God who heals you [Exodus 15:26]
If God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever, and He does not change, neither does He lie, then this is still true today.
There is a false teaching that God sends sickness on us to teach us things. This is so anti-scripture that it's positively evil, a lie form the deepest depths of Hell.
The Word is quite clear - the Holy Spirit is the one who will lead us into ALL truth. Nowhere does it say God uses sickness to teach us things. In fact, the Word says that we are in error if we think that.
If, according to the Word,
... God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him [Acts 10:38]
you cannot say that God sends sickness, otherwise, you literally would have Jesus delivering people from sickness and diseases that God had put on them - which, as Jesus said, would be like a kingdom divided against itself.
Sickness and disease is from the devil - it entered the world because of Adam's sin - God did not send it.
According to Deuteronomy 28:61, sickness (ALL kinds) is a curse of the Law. Jesus has delivered us from the curse of the Law [Galatians 3:13]. Therefore, God is not going to curse us with sickness, when He took all that trouble to send Jesus to deliver us from such things.
Again, the Word does not say that God sends tests, trials and temptations upon us to test us.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift [not bad, and sickness is bad] and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. [James 1:13-17]
God ONLY sends us good and perfect gifts - I do not call sickness or disease a gift, and it is certainly not good or perfect.
Furthermore, it is God who tests our hearts [1 Thessalonians 2:3]
and
8 “So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
9 “and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. [Acts 15:8-9]
God purifies our hearts by faith, not by sickness and disease.
It's your choice to believe the Word or not, no one can force you - but make sure you are receiving the WHOLE Truth from the Word, before you try to make judgments on others who are doing or saying things you may not agree with - make sure that you KNOW what the Word says first.
John
Well, on this one I'll just sit on this comfy fence post and watch, listen and pray (at least for now.) But I do have 2 questions...
What does Scripture tell us about the different territories of the spiritual realm? I'm specifically asking about the holy, the flesh and the unholy. In my mind, I view it in one of two ways....
Either holy on one side and unholy (with flesh included) on the other, basically with a fence between them (a black/white situation) or holy on one side, unholy on the other and the flesh as sort of a demilitarized zone in between, or maybe a no-man's land that both sides are vying to control (black/white/gray). I'd like to have some verses to study as this is one of my current focuses in prayer and Bible reading.
Secondly, John, in your newest article at your blog, you said that,
"If you think about it, Satan is the father of lies, and he would have no compunction about putting the blame on his fellow angels, if it meant he could maintain some form of deception over mankind that helped keep them from repenting and finding their way back to God."
Then on your post here at 4:39, you said, "Satan cannot and will not divide his own house - to do so will result in his own destruction." Wouldn't ratting on his cohorts cause division of their power? Can you clarify the difference?
OK, back to the sidelines.
Blessings,
Jen
Dear John / Boatman,
Let me first say that I believe what the Bible says, and I also believe those miracles can still be performed today by those who truly follow Jesus.
Let me ask you, do you believe that Satan can cause someone to have the symptoms of sickness and the take away those symptoms to make it appear that the person is healed?
What do you think of what Jesus said...?
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23
Just before He says, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
John, are you saying there is no such thing as a false prophet? What would be a false prophet in your estimation?
You say, "Now either the Word is true, and we can walk in health and wholeness because of the stripes Jesus suffered 2000 years ago, or it is not. "
Are you saying that God will heal everyone who has faith? And if they aren't healed, they don't have enough faith? Could it be that some people won't be made whole until Jesus comes?
Thank you,
Vicki
2 Cor 12:7-10
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
"Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Sara
Abbas Rejects US Mediation in Peace Talks
Amen, Nate!
Vicky,
You are just confirming what I said. When the Lord says "Depart from me, I never knew you" He is NOT saying that what they did was wrong or false, but that they were not born again - they had not personally made Jesus Lord of their lives. Jesus only saves you once He is Lord of your life - not the other way around.
The Name of Jesus is above every Name. if you believe that, and your speak to the source of sickness in the Name of Jesus, it has to obey. Similarly, if you cast out a demon in the Name of Jesus, because you have the faith that this will work, it will. It does NOT mean that you are saved - becasue using the power of the Name of Jesus for someone else does not save you.
Jesus explains this in Mark 11:23 - that, in paraphrase, anyone (including unsaved persons) who believe what they say, they will receive it or cause it to happen. Or - you get what you say - both good and bad.
To be saved and eligible for Heaven, you MUST believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead AND you MUST confess Him (with your mouth) as Lord of your life. It has NOTHING to do with what you do or say "in the Name of Jesus".
If you are not born again by the Spirit of God, you CANNOT go to Heaven, however many "good deeds" (including supernatural ones) you did.
Defining a False Prophet depends on whether you believe as is described in the book of Hebrews) that we are under a different covenant than the OT prophets, who were specifically anointed by God, along with the Kings and priests. Nobodyelse was anointed by God under the Old Covenant. Under the Old covenant, a prophet was judged by whether what he said was from God by the prophecy coming true with a 100% accuracy. (A little difficult in practice, since many OT prophetic utterances concerned the coming of the Messiah, and the last prophet in the OT (with the exceptions of John the Baptist and Jesus Himself, lived 400 years BEFORE Jesus came.)
Under the new covenant, this rule no longer applies, as God gave us ALL the ability to receive the empowering of the Holy Spirit [Acts 1:8] (it's not automatic - you need to ask for it, once you have been born again). The purpose of this empowering is to effective witnesses for the Gospel.
One of the manifestations of Holy Spirit is the gift of (simple) prophecy [1 Corinthians 12:10], which is manifested as the Holy Spirt wills [1 Corinthians 12:11] - man cannot cause this to happen, they can only respond to the Holy Spirit's prompting them to speak out what Holy Spirit tells them, and being only human, we WILL make mistakes - it takes practice to learn to prophesy under the guidance of Holy Spirit. If you have not received the baptism of Holy Spirit (what Jesus called "being endued with power from on high", and if you cannot speak in tongues, it will be very difficult, if not impossible to do this.
In any case, the role of prophecy in the NT is now for "the edification and exhortation and comfort of men." [1 Corinthians 14:3]. Nowhere does it mention prophesying about things to come, in a manner like the OT prophets.
However, Jesus said Holy Spirit, when He came in power upon the believers, would lead us into all Truth, and would tell us of things to come.
There are two gifts related to the manifestation of the gift of simple prophecy, the Word of Knowledge and the Word of Wisdom. [1 Corinthians 12:8]. These "gifts" cover these two aspects of Holy Spirit's ministry in the church.
In simple terms the Word of Knowledge is an expression of the mind of God concerning the past and present, having to do with people, places and things. It is exercised under the direction of Holy Spirit, through the gift of (simple) prophecy.
The the Word of Knowledge is an expression of the mind of God concerning the future, having to do with people, places and things. It is likewise exercised under the direction of Holy Spirit, through the gift of (simple) prophecy.
Simply put, these manifestations operate through any believer who has received the baptism of Holy Spirit, and who makes themselves available to Holy Spirit, in a local church setting, to be used to manifest these supernatural spirituals, for the benefit and edification of the local church.
There is no requirement that these New Covenant prophetic utterances are to be 100% accurate - that is not their purpose. Very often the Word of Wisdom is conditional on our actions, so we can therefore cause it not to come to pass.
I have personally been involved in a situation in a church that believed in these manifestations, where a Word of Knowledge and a Word of Wisdom was given in a message to the elders of the Church concerning the appointment of a new pastor. They chose to ignore it (for reasons I will not go into here), and it caused no end of problems. It nearly destroyed a young minister's family and ministry - just as the prophetic word said it would do, if the instructions given were not followed. It was very sad and devastating for all concerned. I do not think the church ever recovered, and the teaching there does not even touch on supernatural, and the manifestations of Holy Spirit. Simply put, they let their lamp go out and became lukewarm [Revelation 3:14-19].
In answer to your question:
Are you saying that God will heal everyone who has faith? And if they aren't healed, they don't have enough faith? Could it be that some people won't be made whole until Jesus comes?
A simple answer to your first question is YES!!
In the four Gospels, there are 19 different cases of healing recorded. Three of these were as a result of Jesus casting out a demon. In 13 of the remaining 16 times, Jesus either said or implied that it was the person's own faith that resulted in their healing.
This in itself should answer your question from the Word.
Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by repeatedly hearing the Word of God. In this particular verse, the word translated "Word" is "Rhema the spoken word of God.
So, you must receive the Word of God in power - in other words it must get into your heart - your spirit man (NOT your mind), before it becomes alive and effective.
The Bible is the Logos - the written Word. You need to hear and hear and keep hearing the written Word of God until, suddenly, it comes alive - it becomes the Rhema word to you personally - as if had been spoken by the mouth of God Himself deep into your spirit. {Note, when you are born again, it is only your spirit that is recreated, your mind remains unregenerate, and needs to be renewed by you (not by God) through the reading and hearing the Word of God [Romans 12:2]).
The Bible says that by Jesus stripes you were healed of all physical, emotional and mental illness and diseases. If you believe it, if you have received the "Rhema" word that says "I am healed by Jesus stripes", then you will have the faith to receive your healing.
The Bible also tells us that we can "build up", "edify" ourselves in our most holy faith by praying in the Holy Spirit.
Praying in the Holy Spirit is praying in tongues [1 Corinthians 14:4, Jude 20] - in reality this is our spirit praying directly to God in utterances that we cannot understand, because they are not in our natural language, but in a supernatural heavenly language that only God can understand. [1 Corinthians 14:2].
We are also, when we pray in tongues (= praying in the Holy Spirit according to [1 Corinthians 14:4, Jude 20]), praying out the perfect will of God [Romans 8:27] (I do not want to argue this again, this is what the Word of God says!)
So, it is God's will that we are all to be able to walk in perfect health and wholeness. If this is the case, why would God want anyone to suffer unnecessarily. Remember, all sickness and disease comes form Satan. We are called to be "more than overcomers". It is up to us to believe (have faith) in what God's Word says. In fact, in Mark 11:22, Jesus says we are to "Have the faith of God" - this is the literal translation of the original Greek - I looked it up. It is a command. God NEVER tells us to do something we cannot - we just need to learn how to do it, which takes effort and time.
You cannot expect, having succumbed for example to cancer, to declare once that "By Jesus stipes I am healed" and get up off your sick bed. This Truth has to be a part of your inner most being, so that when you say it, you REALLY believe it, even if for the time being the symptoms remain.
The symptoms are temporal, subject to change. The Word of God is not. The symptoms MUST eventually bow their knee to the word - you just need to make sure you are around long enough to enjoy the benefits!
If you have studied the Word, and allowed it to become a Rhema Word to your spirit, then when sickness strikes, you will have the faith and the authority to speak to it, and it will go. However (as it says in Mark 11:23), if you start saying "Oh, I'm sick, I have this cancer in me", then it will not go, and it will take hold of your body. If you keep saying you have cancer, it WILL destroy you. If, however, you keep confessing, continuously if necessary, that "By Jesus stripes I am healed", then the cancer will eventually go from your body.
It really is simple as that.
I hope this answers your questions (although, as you said you were a 7th Day Adventist, I know for a fact that your denomination does not believe in healing for today, and most certainly not in the baptism of holy Spirit with power, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.)
John
My original question:
"Since the only sin that cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and taking the mark of the beast separates us from God permanently, do you think that the mark will somehow include blasphemy against the Spirit?"
John, the last part of your response:
"As far as that relates to receiving the Mark of the Beast, if you have already rejected Jesus, why would you not accept the Mark?"
During the tribulation, and before the mark, not everyone would have already committed the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But, I'm thinking that the taking of the mark will somehow include blasphemy of the Spirit.
Matthew 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Mark 3:28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—
All sins, every sin can be forgiven except blasphemy against the Spirit.
Revelation 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Worshipping the beast, its image and receiving the mark, it seems to me, must be connected to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Remember that even blasphemy against Jesus can be forgiven (Matt 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.)
This is just a curiosity for me and I only wondered if others had already thought of it or had read about it elsewhere.
Anonymous Sara,
I am not quite sure what it is you are trying to say,in the passages ytou quoted.
Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was NOT a sickness - it was a demon sent to harass him, to stop him from preaching the Gospel.
It manifested through the actions of the Jews, who tried to kill Paul, and chased him out of 3 cities (Acts 13- 14 - Antioch, Iconium and Lystra). They even stoned him and left him for dead at one point.
What God actually said to Paul was that, rather than God Himslef deal with the problem, He told Paul that His grace = operational power, was sufficient to deal with the problem, and all Paul had to do was avail himself of that power and rebuke the demon - as it says in the Word, we are to "Submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee (in terror) from you".
Since Paul never mentions this problem again, (in Acts 14:21 it is recorded he returned to the three cities where the Jews had tried to kill him, without further problems), he must have successfully dealt with it - you do not see the Jews attacking him, and trying to stone him to death again for a long while after that - only when he got back to Jerusalem for the last time.
John
"...it takes practice to learn to prophesy under the guidance of Holy Spirit."
Sorry but I don’t think that statement has any biblical standing. None of the OT prophets needed to practise prophesying.
These aren't my words - they're taken from the Middletown Bible Church site:
1 Timothy 5:23
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." Timothy had a stomach problem and he was often sick and ailing and infirmed. Paul did not tell him to see a healer, nor did Paul tell him that his physical problems were due to sin or a lack of faith. Paul merely gave Timothy a common sense prescription. [It is possible that Paul was recommending unfermented wine to Timothy rather than alcoholic wine. Athenaeus, the Grammarian (280 AD) wrote the following: "Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called protropos, the sweet Lesbian glukus, as being good for the stomach; for sweet wine [oinos] does not make the head heavy" (Athenaeus, Banquet 2,24). This is an example from ancient literature showing that unfermented wine was recommended as a remedy for stomach problems.]
2 Timothy 4:20
"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick." There is no indication that Trophimus had a spiritual problem (sin, lack of faith), but he did have a physical problem and Paul did not heal him.
Mac - that's so bizarre that you used Timothy.
I opened my bible this morning at random to Timothy & got all engrossed.
Very good point!
This "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is a vision from my past as a Jehovah's Witness.
(I had this revelation today and that is why I asked John that particular question)
I was told that since I was aware of "the Truth" that if I ever said anything negative about the JW's that it was a Blasphemy against Holy Spirit" and I was forever doomed.
Therefore I knew something was fishy but when I left I didn't say anything negative because I was not sure what I believed at that point. So to be on the "safe" side I kept quiet. Just in case.
Well here I am again-but this time-I'm really standing at the edge and at the beginning of the 7 year Trib.
Now I have someone telling me if I disagree with a particular Church's "Signs and Wonders" (Any Church no doubt-as long as they're performing miracles in Jesus name-they have to be legitimate) I am back in the same boat and liken to a Pharisee. I've blasphemed the Holy Spirit. I can never be forgiven. I'm doomed again.
I hope the rest of you can see the implications of this thought process.
I'm telling you I can't seem to win here. Sounds like a familiar "spirit" speaking to me.
John, I knew you were going to say that very thing and that is why I had asked you the question.
I think you have revealed yourself quite well and that's all I have to say on this subject.
Lisa
John, you said
"We are also, when we pray in tongues (= praying in the Holy Spirit according to [1 Corinthians 14:4, Jude 20]), praying out the perfect will of God [Romans 8:27] (I do not want to argue this again, this is what the Word of God says!)"
Well, you don't have to argue this anymore, but it isn't what the Word says, in my opinion.
1 Cor 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
None of these verses say that praying in tongues is the only way to pray in the Spirit, though of course praying in tongues, one would be "in the Spirit".
From my previous post:
In the Jude passage there is no mention of tongues. The Romans passage mentions "groanings too deep for words" (tongues speak words). I have, in prayer, most certainly groaned with something too deep for words, from the depths of my heart. But, there have never been words which I could not understand.
OK, I'll quit now. John, I hope you know that I agree with you on much of what you say.
Blessings
Lisa, I see your point. I know we are supposed to test the spirits, but it seems like there is a line that we can cross.
I remember thinking when I was a young believer that I had committed the unpardonable sin. I spent a day or two feeling crushed and terrified until I read something Billy Graham said. Something like, if you have committed it, you won't have God's Spirit and therefore you won't care if you have Jesus, in fact you probably won't want Him. I desperately wanted Him, and still do.
I'm off to bed. Goodnight, brothers and sisters!
Lisa, IMO too many people tday call themselves prophets or apostles of God and purport to be filled with the Holy Spirit - and they claim that anyone contesting that fact are blaspheming. Just read up on Benny Hinn's antics.
Oh, yeah,
Mac, I'm so glad you pointed out Timothy.
John, you said,"...although, as you said you were a 7th Day Adventist, I know for a fact that your denomination does not believe in healing for today, and most certainly not in the baptism of holy Spirit with power, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues."
I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. The Seventh-day Adventist church most certainly believes that God can do miraclulous healings today, if it is in His will and to His glory.
Our fundamental beliefs state: "Given by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who apportions to each member as He wills, the gifts provide all abilities and ministries needed by the church to fulfill its divinely ordained functions. According to the Scriptures, these gifts include such ministries as faith, healing, prophecy, proclamation, teaching, administration, reconciliation, compassion, and self-sacrificing service and charity for the help and encouragement of people."
And as I stated before, I / we also believe that the Holy Spirit will still bestow the gift of tongues, though we believe that this gift is used to proclaim the gospel in a known language.
Could you please answer this question simply for me--Do you believe that Satan can cause someone to appear to be sick and then take away those symptoms to make it appear that the person is healed?
Vicki
Lisa -
PLEASE do NOT feel that way!
"I am back in the same boat and liken to a Pharisee. I've blasphemed the Holy Spirit. I can never be forgiven. I'm doomed again."
THAT statement is sooooo not true, honey!
Mac, you are right. There are an abundance of Elmer Gantrys out there.
I really, really need to go to sleep, and I will quit now.
Alright guys, that's a bit harsh....
For those who don't know the reference, Elmer Gantry (from Wikipedia) is a novel about a
"young, narcissistic, womanizing college athlete who, upon realizing the power, prestige, and easy money that being an evangelical preacher can bring, pursues his "religious" ambitions with relish, contributing to the downfall, even death, of key people around him as the years pass. Gantry continues to womanize, is often exposed as a fraud, and frequently faces a complete downfall, yet he is never fully discredited and always manages to emerge triumphant and reaching ever greater heights of social standing."
Blessings,
Jen
Jen,
I love you sister....
But of all the comments tonight - you chose to mention THAT ONE was harsh?
Really?
Jen, I've heard the name Gantry but wouldn't have associated it with anyone nor ever call anyone that. However, we do/did get Hinn here in Oz TV and I am not afraid to say that he IS a false prophet.
Anne, Shalom! Back on May 15, you posted a link to a Rodger Oakland video about the Marian apparitions at Fatima. I have not watched it, because there are a number of similar videos making their way around the blogsphere. Their reasoning basically goes like this: Since "Fatima" was the name of Mohammed's youngest daughter, AND these apparitions took place outside the village called "Fatima" in Portugal THEREFORE these are either demonic apparitions or they are proof of the coming Islamic-Catholic World Religion.
I know this topic upsets some of you. For that, I apologize in advance, and advise you to just scroll on past this message. I'm sure someone will be posting something on tongues or pre-trib VS post-trib soon. I know many of you reject the reasoning behind considering Mary the Ark of the New Covenant, and state that she was an ordinary woman. Fair enough. However, that view neglects to consider another position Mary holds that was and still is very important in human cultures: Queen Mother.
Whether or not the mother of the king was given the title of Queen or even married to the king, after a king ascended to his throne, his mother was referred to as the Queen Mother. Throughout Israel's monarchy, the Queen Mother held a unique and powerful position. There was a special word in Hebrew for her: Gebirah. The Queen Mother acted as an advocate, or go-between, between the people and the king. In 1 Kings 1:11ff Nathan did not approach King David himself to ask if Adonijah would be king, but asked Bathsheba to approach King David first. This reinforced her position as the gebirah through her son Solomon; if she were not the Queen Mother she would not have approached the king the way she did. Again, in 1 Kings 2:16-20 Adonijah said,
"Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite for my wife." "Very well," replied Bathsheba, "I will speak to the king for you." Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king's mother, who sat at his right. "There is one small favor I would ask of you," she said. "Do not refuse me." "Ask it, my mother," the king said to her, "for I will not refuse you."
The gebirah is a role that can be taken away (1 Kings 15:13), but cannot be given. It must be assumed, as one assumes the role of being king.
So the Queen Mother is a powerful figure. And when people say that Mary was just a woman who did an extraordinary thing (bearing the Christ) but who deserves no further notice or recognition, they are ignoring one very, very important detail: JESUS CHRIST IS KING! That makes Mary the Queen Mother.
Now, if you choose not to believe that Mary appeared at Fatima, that's cool. That was a private revelation, and though the Catholic Church has ruled that it is "worthy of belief", there is nothing that says anyone MUST believe it. But to claim that the apparitions at Fatima and other places are demonic, that's a different matter. When Mary at Fatima urged people to fast and pray for the conversion of sinners, how can that be demonic? When she gave us a prayer, "Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy," how can that be the work of the Evil One? I fear that those who are preaching the demonic role of Mary at Fatima and at other approved apparitions are doing more than discouraging belief. I fear they are insulting the Queen Mother. I'm trying to find out what the penalty was in Biblical times for those who insulted the Queen Mother. I don't think it would have been as bad as insulting the king, but somehow, I don't think it was very pleasant.
<><
I think a joke is what we need....
God Grants a Wish
A man walking along a California beach was deep in prayer when all of a sudden he said aloud, "Lord grant me one wish". The sky clouded and a booming voice said, "Because you have tried to be faithful I will grant you one wish." The man said, "Build a bridge to Hawaii so I can drive over anytime I want to."
The Lord answered, "Your request is very materialistic. Think of the logistics of that kind of undertaking; the supports required to reach the bottom of the Pacific; the concrete and steel it would take. I can do it, but it is hard for me to justify your desire for worldly things. Take a little more time to think of another wish, a wish you think would honor and glorify me".
The man thought for a long time and finally said, "Lord, I wish that I could understand women. I want to know what they feel inside, what they are thinking when they give me the silent treatment, why they cry, what they mean when they say 'nothing', and how I can make a woman truly happy?"
After a few minutes God said, "How many lanes do you want on that bridge?"
Lisa
I second Alesia-so not true and don't even go there. We are commanded to test the spirits-if the bad ones couldn't fake the good stuff there would be no reason to test them. You are in my opinion being faithful and being a Berean. Marge even sent me a newsletter from a charismatic preacher who has significant doubts also.
I would agree with Mac that I don't think prophesying requires practice nor for that matter do I think speaking in tongues takes practice (they certainly didn't seem to need practice at Pentecost.) Both might in this day and age require letting go of preconceived notions about tongues and prophesy, or not wanting to appear foolish or weird to those around us but to my way of thinking miraculous gifts shouldn't take practice. may be I'm being too simplistic. personally I don't want the gift of tongues because I think I'd get too puffed up about it and I really don't want to be looked at as weird. If God were for some unknown reason to bless me with that particular gift I would want to be able to speak Farsi. I work with a number of Pakistani muslims and I would love to be able to testify to them in their own language with them knowing that is was being done miraculously. Actually what I really want is to be able to touch someone and be able to speak their language instantly whatever it might be because it would make my work sooo much easier. Guatemalan Spanish is not the same as Mexican Spanish, Costa Rican Spanish etc.
Jen
as far as the Elmer Gantry comment goes, there are a number of preachers that I can think of that might not have started out as Elmer Gantry's but certainly could be considered to have ended up that way. Jim Bakker springs to mind. And just over this last weekend the pastor of another megachurch was caught in an FBI sex sting for solicitation and intent to have sex with a 13 year old girl and they indicated that this wasn't the first time he'd done this. So the shoe actually sometimes does fit. Personally I think sexual sins are the biggest blind spot of the church-bigger by far than theft, booze and drugs put together. I think it can be hidden a lot easier and for a longer period of time than the others. People think that they can resist temptation without God's help and find out they can't.
done with the soap box for the night
Amen! JIB
especially since you are agreeing with Mac & I
bwuhahahahahahahahaha!
:-)
Anne,
The correct rendering of Jude 20 is
"But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit"
There's no "and" in the original text - meaning you "build yourself up" by "praying in the Holy Spirit". It's not two different things.
(Check the original Greek, together with the Concordant Literal Version of the Bible (included) - recognized to be the most accurate word for word translation - if you do not have a copy get the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer from here - it's free and runs on Windows PCs)
Another, perfectly valid way of expression being "built up" is to liken it to "charging up a battery" - so by praying the Spirit, in tongues, we are charging up our spiritual battery.
Note that "praying in the Holy Spirit" does not give you faith - that comes from hearing and hearing the Word of God [Romans 10:17]. Praying in tongues charges up your faith, so that it has some spiritual energy to run on - so that your light can shine!
You see the same phrase in 1 Corinthians 14:2
"The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself" - i.e you cannot do that without tongues.
The "building up" is therefore done by praying in the Holy Spirit, in tongues.
Now, in Romans 8:26 it says:
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. [NKJV]
The expression "weaknesses", sometimes translated "infirmities" [KJV] correctly should be translated "shortcomings" - our shortcoming in our prayer life is that we sometimes don't know either what to pray, or how to pray or both. That's normal - we don't know everything about any given situation - we can only observe things from a natural standpoint - we don't know the future, and therefore we need some help from Holy Spirit.
As far as the expression "groanings that cannot be uttered" (or in your translation "groanings too deep for words"), here is another example of the translators not knowing or fully understanding what they are translating.
The Greek should, more correctly be rendered as "groanings that cannot be uttered in articulate speech", according to P.C. Nelson, who was regarded as one of the finest scholars of NT Greek in North America in the last century (He could speak and write 32 different languages!).
The expression "articulate speech" refers to our regular kind of speech, in our native language.
He also pointed out that these "groanings" included praying in tongues. Please understand that it not the Holy Spirit who does the praying for you (another common error), but that He helps us pray in groanings.
The AMPlified version of 1 Corinthians 14:14 shows us this more clearly:
For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays...
The Holy Spirit gives you the utterances (words to say) but it you who do the talking.
If God says you need to "build yourself" up (and the instruction in Jude 20 is a command), and to do this you have to pray in tongues, then people who do not want to have a problem obeying God! Wow!!! That REALLY sets the cat among the pigeons!
God NEVER tells us to do something we cannot. It's really all up to you, if you want to.
John
funny Alesia
I'd seen that one before.
Jim
your post was interesting to say the least. The one thing I will say is that I do think that Protestant churches in general do not give Mary her due in some ways. She must have been something special as a person for God to entrust with her the responsibility of raising Messiah. I don't however think that makes her the queen mother but since I have become a mother of a son I have gained a whole new perspective on her as a person and she is one of the people I most want to talk to in Heaven. I also want to talk to Joseph. What an incredible man he must have been. Too bad he is hardly mentioned. While he should have been the king of all Israel he was a carpenter and also entrusted with the responsibility of raising the Messiah. I have a 5 year old who is good looking, smart funny and who is the light of my eyes but definitely not perfect. I know we as parents like to think we have the perfect child but Mary and Joseph really did have the perfect child. What do you suppose that was like? It boggles the mind.
Alesia,
Yes, I agree that there have been lots of harsh references lately and I've cringed alot and held my tongue when I felt the sting on the receiving end. However, the subjects were somewhat on topic and related to the issues being discussed (ie. heretic, false prophet, Pharisee, demon-possessed, etc.) "Gantry" goes into another realm (see my previous post) (although I think Anne probably threw it out there without considering the full association behind it.)
If I call someone a Daisy Buchanan (from the Great Gatsby), I probably just mean she's an airhead or someone who relishes the party life. But the whole scope of that characterization entails alot more....adultery, seduction, betrayal and an utter lack of compassion. Maybe my literary background is coming too much into play, but I just feel if we're going to battle each other, we need to stay focused and not let ourselves open the door to petty molotov cocktail slinging.
We had enough of that at Joel's and used to find the cave a place of refuge.
If we're this confused now and we have the advantage of the Holy Spirit in us, imagine what life will be like for those left behind.
Bring your peace, Lord Jesus.
Blessings,
Jen
oh and Jim
your post was a complete non sequiter which while it wasn't really funny just struck me so because it WAS a complete non sequiter. I loved it!
Vicki,
You said Do you believe that Satan can cause someone to appear to be sick and then take away those symptoms to make it appear that the person is healed?
Yes it is possible - but for what purpose?
The problem is that the symptoms of sickness can mimic an actual sickness. The devil can put symptoms on a person and then take them away. If the person gives God the glory, who has really won - God has!
If a person does not give God the glory, then there is nothing that a born again believer has to judge - it is obviously just the work of the devil.
However, if the devil puts symptoms on a born again believer, and they take authority in Jesus' Name, and tell the symptoms to go (it's called "resisting the devil", and they do, then God gets the glory, and the devil is defeated.
Simply put, all sickness (both actual and symptoms) is of the devil. If a person is praying in the Name of Jesus for someone to be healed, and they are, then give God the glory. If they are not healed, then either the person ministering, or the receiver, did not exercise their faith in a proper manner. This is almost always due to a lack of understanding about what the Word says.
If you are a believer in Jesus, the Word says you can lay hands on the sick, and they will recover. Period. The real question is "Do YOU believe that?"
If the person being laid hands on does not believe that "By Jesus stripes I am healed", or that God wants everyone to be healed, whole and living a healthy, sickness free life, it's very hard to get them to a place spiritually where they are able to receive healing - their faith is not operational. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word (Rhema) of God. You need to take time to teach them that.
Jesus made it very clear that our faith is intrinsically involved in receiving healing for ourselves.
So, in conclusion, yes, the devil can put symptoms on a person, and then remove them. But you can tell that it is just the devil playing games if God does not get the glory.
John
Jib, why didn't you just say logical fallacy. Had to drag out the old dictionary! Brain hurts.
Jen,
I see what you are saying.
BUT, that is my point exactly - we are battling, instead of discussing & are doing so disrespectfully at times.
Yes, of course we will disagree, at times. But that does not give reason to be disrespectful & hurtful. We need to love one another & respect that others have different views.
sorry for making your brain hurt Mac but I was taking a little liberty with the phrase
it is Latin for "it does not follow". Jim's post didn't follow the line of the other posts and just came out of left field as a completely new topic like wow where did that come from.
Lisa, now I understand better where you are coming from.
The Jehovah Witnesses can REALLY mess you up in your thinking, and it's a MAJOR job to fix the squirrelly thinking in your mind.
The ONLY thing that will fix it is the Word of God.
You have NOT blasphemed the Holy Spirit - you are just struggling with the vestiges of what you were taught by the JW's.
God loves you - He does not and will not condemn you. Just keep studying the Word, but most of all, PRAY, PRAY PRAY in tongues - all the time if possible (even if it under your breath). You WILL see the difference.
Also, study the Word. Read the Gospels and Acts over and over - try and read all four Gospels and Acts in a week, then repeat for 3 more weeks - it's hard - I know - I am doing (trying) that now.
Also, stay away from researching odd stuff (I think you know what I mean). You need to be solely in the Word - don't even read any novels or books on subjects that are not directly related to the Word, stay away from too much TV, just allow the Word to really get deep down inside of you.
God bless you sister..
John
Alesia,
I LOVED the joke - thanks,
By the way, you said that you thought you might get "puffed up" if you had the gift of tongues and that and you really don't want to be looked at as weird.
Looked at as weird by whom? Not us lot here, that's for sure - we are already weird enough -we don't need anyone else to tell us.
If you look at what I said in my post to Anne, God gives us all the gift of a special private prayer language (aka tongues) for our spirit to pray to Him in private.
Nobody except God needs to know you pray in tongues - as Paul says, anyone who is does not have understanding of such spiritual matters would think you were crazy anyway, so why tell them, or let them hear you speaking in tongues.
So, if you look at "tongues" as a special love gift from your Heavenly Father, to enable you to express your love for Him in a deeper way than is possible in English, and so that you can, when necessary, pray to God privately in situations where you do not know what or how to pray - in other words you cannot articulate what you want to say in your native language, but you just HAVE to pray, then this is what tongues is for.
You don't need to tell anyone else, you certainly don't need to pray out loud in tongues in church - it's a private, personal means of talking to your Heavenly Father, which He wants to give you, so that your relationship with Him can grow deeper and deeper. Just ask Him, in faith, and see what happens. There is nothing to be afraid of.
Love you in the Lord. You are a great encourager (and gentle but firm moderator) to all of us here.
John
Thanks John.
Wasn't me that said that though!
Alesia, you are right, it should have been addressed to JIB - sorry JIB.
In any case, it really is applicable to all of us here.
God bless, and good night.
John
What generation or people was it that sought after signs and wonders? Also I remember reading somewhere in the Bible that Satan can perform signs and wonders. Now where did I read that?
Isn't Satan good enough that if time wasn't cut short he could deceive even the elect?
I mean he is really good! He deceived the very beings that walked with our Lord in the Garden of Eden.
You know he even copied some of the things that Moses and Aaron did. Shoot didn't one of the major prophets of God run scared from one of the prophets of Baal?
And which POWERFUL angel was delayed in the Old Testament because he had to deal with a Prince of Satan?
I think we need to be very careful today. Satan is loose an preys on our emotions and feelings. Instead of trusting in truth, we trust in our emotions and experiences. There is a way that seems right to man...
Well I don't know where I am going with all of this of course. I just know that the earth is Satan's domain for right now and he is ALIVE and WELL and VERY ACTIVE. And he is Deceiving many with his lying signs and wonders!
In His Love and looking up!
Debbie
Jeri, if you're reading this, please drop a line and give us all an update as to how you are all going.
You too, Harold and ATTY.
God bless.
Are 32,000 Scientists Enough to Question Global Warming 'Consensus?'
Iran's Lebanon Game
The BBC's Birthday Present to Israel
Middle East Peace in 2009?
I think I'll just be quiet for a few days. I had no idea I was being hurtful or disrespectful and so I apologize to all.
I haven't read Elmer Gantry, only saw the movie.
No, Anne,
I need to apologize to you. I knew my post last night (as soon as I had posted it) was not communicating what I was trying to say. I probably should have deleted it. I meant my comments to us all (myself included) in a general way. I don't know about the rest, but I can feel myself being pulled toward "sniping" which is totally not the Spirit of love we have for each other here.
I'm trying to discern if I'm being led to take time off as well just because I think I don't have enough balance in the time I spend reading/posting and the time I'm in the Word and prayer. As much as I would like to consider it as such, I don't think blogging counts as time with God, even in a fellowship setting.
So please, please accept my apology and don't excuse yourself on my account.
Blessings,
Jen
Lisa
I sent you an email yesterday
interesting commentary from wnd
As in the Days of Noah
on a lighter note
POW's of WWII given "Get out of Jail Cards"
this is quite ingenious!
Anne - Please know I was in NO WAY talking about YOU when I made that comment!!!
I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way.
Me like when you make comments, keep em coming & don't back into that far corner of the cave (that's MY spot) :-)
Good posts Mac & JIB!
Where ARE all of the others?
There are so many missing these days.
Can you all just give a shout out & say HI at least, so we know all is well?
If we believe Jesus and we believe the Bible, we will not worry about the "American Death Camps". They will probably have something like this during the tribulation, but we won't be here. Besides, this is an old ploy from the 90's updated to fit today's news. Back then they were telling everyone to be on the lookout for vehicles in army convoys that were painted white (i.e. the UN) that were driving up and down our interstates and taking over our army bases.
Sara, Shalom! I went one level up from that page (about the FEMA death camps) and got a list of web pages. NONE of the pages, including the FEME one, have been updated since the middle of 2002. If you'll remember, "The X-Files" movie had a similar scenario involving FEMA.
"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."
<><
All is well
Can I say something without anyone getting angry?
There's a few ministers that have been mentioned here recently with scorn.
One I am not familiar with, the other I am. I personally know someone who worked for him for several years in close proximity. This minister has made mistakes, but the anointing on his life is real. The healings that were shown on television we're verified with medical professionals before they were broadcast, that is their policy.
I guess I say all this to remind us of the words of God, "touch not mine anointed." We do need to be careful about what we subject ourselves to but each one needs personally seek the Lord on discernment.
Shalom all. I think our prayers are needed for him and his family:
Sen. Edward Kennedy has malignant brain tumor
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
Shalom, all! Don't be fooled if you hear anything about this:
A brazen publicity stunt from the House of Saud. Claims cheap souvenir is "pontifical award"
On May 8, Saudi royals placed a full-page ad in the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Times of London, and other papers proclaiming that a charity founded by Prince Alwaleed bin Talal al Saud, a nephew of King Abdullah and the world's 13th-richest person, had been honored by the pope. Directly under a Koranic passage on tolerance, the headline declared: "Alwaleed bin Talal Humanitarian Foundation, representing Kingdom Foundation, awarded the Pontifical Medal by Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican."
At the center of the page was depicted a medallion bearing the image of Pope Benedict XVI, which the ad labeled "The Pontifical Medal." The Holy See's coat of arms was displayed bottom center, implying that the ad carried the imprimatur of the pope.
...
In the end, it was consultations with an independent expert on the Vatican and interviews with several recipients that solved the mystery: The medal shown in the ad is a common souvenir.
It is minted each year by the thousand and handed out as a memento to those granted an audience with the pope. All the staffers at the American embassy to the Holy See, for instance, have received it. It was given to White House officials when Pope Benedict met with Bush. It is for sale at the Vatican bookstore. It confers no honor at all.
This next part is probably the most frightening of all:
But if the ad's immediate purpose may have been to cast the appearance of a papal blessing over the growing Saudi presence on Western campuses, it also served a larger Saudi aim. The Saudi monarchy has begun using the model of the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church to position itself as the authoritative voice of Islam worldwide. This is new. In the history of Sunni Islam, theological authority has been located in various centers, but never in the House of Saud.
The recent ad directly supports this power play. It sets up visual parallels between the pope and the king, the Vatican and Mecca. A slogan at the bottom reads, "Two great faiths, Sharing one cause: humanity." Using its control of the hajj and the vast wealth it pours into foreign evangelism, funding mosques, schools, libraries, and academic centers worldwide, the House of Saud is patiently pursuing its quest to make the Saudi variant of Islam -- Wahhabism, with its warrant for the murder of heretics, apostates, and infidels -- the Muslim norm. This is the ad's chilling subtext.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
<><
2 prayer requests to ask...
1) I got a call today from our church about a young mother with a 9-month old baby who is also expecting triplets. She's at 25 weeks (28 weeks you can breathe a little easier if they are born then) and I've offered to serve as a "mentor" mom to her. I don't think they have family in the area, so she will really be in need of strangers' help and I'm hoping that I will be able to serve her so that she sees Christ working through me to be a blessing to her. Prayers for the babies' health (all 3 are girls) and peace/strength/providence for the parents.
2) Also, the daughter of very dear friends of ours is getting married in July to an atheist. He's French and comes from the post-modern European mindset. Katie was raised in a Christian home/attended Christian K-12 but believes love will conquer all.
Her parents are heartbroken but resigned to her decision. Her mom is deeply saddened at the thought of her future grandchildren being raised in a home where the Lord isn't honored by both parents.
Thanks,
Jen
Jim,
"So the Queen Mother is a powerful figure. And when people say that Mary was just a woman who did an extraordinary thing (bearing the Christ) but who deserves no further notice or recognition, they are ignoring one very, very important detail:.....
Really? Let's see what Jesus says:
Matther 12:46-50
While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brother stood outside seeking to speak with Him."Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with you."
But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is my Mother and who are my brothers?" And He stretched out His hand toward His diciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
To me it doesn't seem like He has a higher regard for her more than anyone else who is obedient to the calling of the Holy Spirit.She is even listed last His line when she was spoken of first by whoever asked the question. We are all called to operate in the body of Christ and have different positions in His kingdom plans.
Hers happened to be in the use of his birth. Remember, God is not a respector of persons.
Otherwise this would have been the perfect opportunity for Jesus to exalt her.
Lori, I did not intend to offend by mentioning that pastor's name. Please forgive me if I have done so. The best of intentions are sometimes lacking in tact. I'm not in the discernment business but I do worry about people who consider themselves anointed and then teach extra biblical doctrine etc. I'll refrain from naming people from now on. The fellowship here is too important for me. Let's all pray for each other & love each other.
Blessings
mac
Looks like you boys and girls have been very busy lately!
I have lots of catching up to do...
<><
Deb, you made an excellent point about the importance of testing the spirits. I was going to write about Pharoahs magicians copying aarons signs and wonders, too.
It is very worrisome to think that anyone would swallow every sign and wonder that may appear to be happening.
One of the signs of the end times are deceptive signs and wonders.
We are called to be discerning.
Perhaps we should look into this whole discenment thing a bit more.
Great post Deb! And right on Mac....the OT prophets did not have to practise prophecizing! Not sure where that came from!
seems like folks are getting a bit stir crazy in the cave!
:)
Vicky (and everyone else),
This is not meant to be confrontational, but given in a spirit of Love.
I am going to try and take a purely factual, logical approach to the subject of why we need to know God's Will when we are praying, based solely on the Word of God.
According to the Word:
Without faith it is impossible to please God [Hebrews 11:6]
Anything [deed, thought action, prayer] that is not from faith is sin [Romans 14:22]
According to Mark 11:22 we are commanded by Jesus to:
"Have the faith of God"
or, more literally:
"Have the God kind of faith"
As many translation do not usually say this, here is an accurate rendering of the original Greek:
"And answering, the Jesus is saying to them, "Be ye having faith of God"
So, what is the "faith of God"? It would seem that it is very important to know this, since, as given above, without this faith it is impossible to please God, and that anything that is not of this kind of faith is sin.
This is what the Word says!!! Wow!!
Fortunately, God gives us a comprehensive answer in just one chapter of the NT (and I am not speaking of Hebrews 11 - which just adds more practical details to this matter of faith)
In Mark 11:12-25 Jesus gives His disciples an object lesson in how the God kind of faith operates.
When Jesus is going up to Jerusalem, having spent the night with His disciples in Bethany (by the way, Jesus NEVER stayed overnight in Jerusalem, once He had started His ministry), He is hungry, and sees a fig tree in the distance (this is not a symbolic reference to Israel - it's just a fig tree).
He goes up to the fig tree to see if it has any figs on it, but there are none. So, in the hearing of the disciples He speaks (calls to) to the fig tree (here is another hint - God calls those things that are not as though they were), and says "Let no one eat fruit from you ever again." (v14)
At first glance, this seems a bit harsh, since the account tells us that it was not the season for fruit. Remember, however, that Jesus is setting up a visual object lesson on the God kind of faith in this situation.
He continues on to Jerusalem, with the disciples - who probably took no real thought as to what they had witnessed. Having "drive[n] out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves", He then returns at the end of the day to Bethany. Some day!
The next morning He is again setting out, with the disciples, to go into Jerusalem.
This time, it is Peter who, obviously in great surprise, points out the fig tree they had seen the day before. It has dried up from the roots (v20). Peter cries out, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away." (v21)
Now listen to Jesus' response to the disciples (which includes us!),
"Have the God kind of faith!" [Mark 11:22]
Now stop and consider what is happening. Jesus has spoken to a fig tree, and basically told it to die. It did! Within the space of 24 hours. In fact, it may have already been dead when the disciples, with Jesus, had passed by the evening before, but since it was late (and dusk falls early and quickly in Israel - between 6:00 and 7:00 pm almost all year round), it was probably too dark for the disciples to have noticed.
Now, when you consider Jesus' response, it is very remarkable. What did he mean? Well, we will see in the next few verses exactly what He meant. These verses are ABSOLUTELY critical to our understanding, if you want to have ANY understanding of how to operate in a God kind of faith-filled life - which we are commanded by God - through Jesus - to do so.
(Again, God NEVER asks us to do something that we cannot.)
Let's take them verse by verse, trying to show what the original meaning of the text actually says to us.
Mark 11:23
Truly [verily, assuredly, literally Amen] I tell you, whoever says to this mountain, "Be lifted up and thrown into the sea!" and does not doubt at all in his heart but believes that what he says will take place, it will be done for him.
I think this is one of the most amazing verses in the Bible.
First, it's not talking about prayer - this is covered in v24-25.
It's addressed to "whoever" - meaning this applies to anyone who follows the instruction in the rest of the verse. The do NOT have to be saved. ANYONE can do this!!
Notice that use of the verb "say". Obviously we must speak out what we want to happen, in order for it happen. Is this the God kind of faith?
Well, according Romans Ch4, Paul gives a very reasoned argument as to why Abraham, the father of our faith, was accounted righteous, made in right standing with God, by his belief (=faith) in God, and in what He had said. (You should go and read it - it's too long to be included here).
God had said to Abraham "I have made you a father of many nations." [Genesis 17:4-5]
This was said BEFORE Abraham had any children, and at a time in his life when, as the Bible puts it, he and Sarah were as good as dead, and beyond any natural ability to have children.
For as Paul puts it in Romans 4:17, it is "God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did", and because Abraham believed the word of the Lord, it was accounted to him for righteousness. [Romans 4:3]
Well the same applies to us. If we believe the Word, then we should be as Abraham, who did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform [Romans 4:20-21].
(Note, for us to be able to believe God, and what He has said, we need to KNOW what is in the Word - if you don't know something, or know but do not understand, you cannot believe it! True belief is not in your head, it's in your heart, in your recreated spirit man. You can always tell what someone REALLY believes by what they say - as Jesus said, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks").
So, we see now that the God kind of faith involves the belief, contrary to hope, without wavering, that what God has said will happen. So if we are to have this same kind of faith, then we to should do as God does:
Call those things that are not as though they are, having an unshakable certainty that what we have said WILL happen, irrespective of our situation or circumstances, and in some cases, in spite of them.
I hope that you can now better understand Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the assurance [literally understanding] (the confirmation, the title deed) of things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [evidence, as presented in a court of law] [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]" [AMP, with some minor additions].
So, what Jesus is saying is that, in order to have the God kind of faith, when we speak to a mountain (a better explanation would be any apparently insurmountable obstacle blocking our path - whether that is any form of lack, sickness, disease, trouble, danger, etc.), we must:
1) first identify it - call it by name, whatever the mountain is, then speak to it to be removed (i.e. for the sickness to go, for lack of finances or anything else to be replaced with plenty - all sufficiency in all things, for natural circumstances to be settled and at peace - including the weather, the ground, etc.), and
(2)most importantly of all, BEFORE we speak, have already settled firmly and absolutely, with no shadow of doubt, fear or any other negative thought or feeling in our heart, not just in our mind) that what we are about to say has ALREADY happened.
(3) after we have spoken we must NEVER say anything to the contrary, whatever the situation or even the facts seem to be telling us, and we must continue, without wavering or doubt even crossing our minds, to believe that what we have said WILL come to pass.
Only then, according to Jesus will we have what we say.
(As an aside, this principle is what the New Agers and all those "positive thinking" and self-help" gurus are promoting - which is why they work, after a fashion).
Now, here comes the difficult part.
Jesus then moves on to the subject prayer, and how to get what you pray for from God.
Before we start to look at this, please go back and read all the above. if you do not understand it, you are going to get very upset by what Jesus says next.
"For this reason, I am telling you whatever you ask in prayer, believe (trust and be confident) that it is granted to you and you will [get it]" [AMP]
First, what does Jesus mean "for this reason"? What reason? The reason that, in order to receive what you are ask for in prayer, you MUST have already believed that you have ALREADY received what you are asking for, BEFORE you pray!!!
My initial, immediate reaction to that was "If that's the case, what's the point of praying? How can I know that what I am praying for I know that I am going to receive, without ANY doubt?"
In effect, what I really need to know, before I start praying for ANYTHING, is "What is God's Will for me in this situation?"
If you cannot answer that with absolute assurance, then you had better not pray, because you will not get it!
James goes one step further, and say that if you do not have faith (i.e. believe) in what you are praying for, you are a double minded man (or woman), unstable in ALL your ways [James 1:6-8], and according to Romans 14:22 you are not praying in faith, you are praying in sin! Whoa!!!!
Now, a common prayer that many Christians make tags the phrase "if it be Thy will" on the end, almost as a safety net, in case they do not get what they are praying for - they can then make the excuse that God does not want them to have it.
Oh, mankind! Why do we ALWAYS try to blame someone else, and refuse to take responsibility for our actions. It's the same sin Adam committed, back in the Garden We truly have not changed!
The only thing that Jesus says will hinder our prayer of faith, if it is done according to Mark 11:22-24, is unforgiveness - see v25-26.
Interestingly, in v25, Jesus says that it is only when we forgive someone else can God forgive us our failings and shortcomings.
Notice the word "shortcomings".
I have already mentioned this, but in Romans 8, Paul speaks of how the Holy Spirit will help us in our "shortcomings" - when we do not know how or what to pray.
The Greek word translated shortcomings or infirmities or weakness in Mark 11:25 is paraptoma, meaning "a side-slip (lapse or deviation), i.e. (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression:--fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass", and in Romans 8: is astheneia, meaning "feebleness (of mind or body); by implication, malady; morally, frailty:--disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness".
You can see the obvious similarities, meaning that God recognizes our infirmities astheneia, and has provided the Holy Spirit as a means to help us overcome those, especially when we pray, because He recognizes that it is hard for us to come to that place that Jesus speaks of in Mark 11:22-25 by ourselves.
Please, please, now do you understand why I keep on insisting that we all pray in tongues, in the Spirit. Paul clearly says that this is the ONLY way we can guarantee that what we are praying is inline with the perfect will of God, and will therefore get an answer to our prayers.
Now concerning the phrase "if it be Thy will". Many Christians think that they are being very correct and spiritual when they tag this onto their prayers. But, as I have said, with one exception, this is not praying in faith, it's praying in ignorance of what the Word of God says, and will not get the desired response from God.
The ONLY time that this phrase occurs in the Bible is in the accounts of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, crying out to God:
"“Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”" [Luke 22:41].
Jesus was praying what is called the Prayer of Consecration. God had required of Him that He go through the scourging, torture, abuse and finally the crucifixion. Now remember, Jesus was 100% man, and it would be unreasonable for His flesh to NOT cry out to God. Jesus KNEW what was going to happen to Him. He KNEW that this is what He had come to the Earth to do. But, understandably, His human nature was recoiling at the thought of the pain and suffering He was about to endure.
He KNEW what God's Will was - it was just the cry of His soul (not His spirit) to God that if there was any other way to complete his mission, please would God allow it, but that He would accept whatever God determined for Him and go through with it. By the time He left the Garden, He had settled in His spirit and soul to go through with God's perfect will for Him, whatever it cost. Nothing would shake Him from that determination. He had accepted, totally, God's perfect will for Him.
The ONLY time we can pray the Prayer of Consecration, using the phrase "if it is Your will" is when we are praying about God's plans and purposes for our lives. For example, it may be that we believe that God is calling us to the mission field, full time, in some distant land. Now, in our soul, we have a very strong desire to do this, but we want to be absolutely sure, before we get on that plane or ship, that this REALLY is God's perfect will for us. Please understand that God will not stop us doing something if we are really determined, but this would be a case of being in His permissive will, not in His perfect will. He will not override our will - if we decide to do something He cannot stop us.
I don't know about anyone else, but I want to be in God's perfect will for my life, not just doing something that I think is a good idea - it needs to be a "God idea".
So, you can see that praying "if it is Your will" is actually a statement of unbelief, unless you are praying the Prayer of Consecration.
So, to quote Vicky, and her assertion that The Seventh-day Adventist church most certainly believes that God can do miraculous healings today, if it is in His will and to His glory.
According to what Jesus says in Mark 11:22-24, unless you KNOW what God's will is, you shouldn't pray. If you do, you are not in faith, but in sin. If you want to know what God's will is, read the Word. But remember, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Rhema word of God - the Logos has to become Rhema to you personally before it has any effect on your life. But having got the faith (assurance, substance of things hoped for, of things not seen), you need to, according to Jude 20, "build yourself up in your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit" which according to 1 Corinthians 14:4 means to "pray in tongues".
So, based on that, unless you TOTALLY, COMPLETELY, WITHOUT A SHADOW OF DOUBT believe the promises in Mark 16 that whoever believes in the name of Jesus "will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover", you should NEVER pray for the sick.
The question you may ask is "How do I know that it is God's will to heal someone".
Simply put, because the Word of God SAYS SO. God is not a respecter of persons. If He heals one, he HAS to heal another. Nowhere in the Word does Jesus ever say to someone, it's not God's will to heal you. In fact, it says quite the contrary. As I said previously, Jesus makes it clear in the Gospels that receiving of healing for our bodies has EVERYTHING to do with our faith, not whether it is God's will.
However, and I hope all of you agree, it is never possible, in the natural, to always know what God's will is for a particular situation, especially if it involves someone else.
This is where the instructions about praying in the Spirit can be applied. It clearly says that we CAN pray the perfect will of God, IF we pray in the Spirit - and I have shown that that means, amongst other things, praying in tongues. I agree it is not limited to praying in tongues, but if you do not start there it is VERY difficult to get in that place called "in the Spirit"
In answer to Vicky's assertion, that her denomination states that "we also believe that the Holy Spirit will still bestow the gift of tongues, though we believe that this gift is used to proclaim the gospel in a known language." This is contrary to Scripture. Paul CLEARLY teaches that a person who prays in tongues is praying mysteries to God, that no one except God can understand.
"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries." [1 Corinthians 14:2].
Furthermore, the statement of doctrinal belief Vicky quotes, concerning the "gifts" of the Holy Spirit to the Church are not totally in line with Paul's extensive teaching of the same in 1 Corinthians 12 - 14.
In 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 Paul writes:
"1 Now concerning spirituals, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: [Thank God He does not want us to be ignorant conerning the things of the Spirit!]
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He [the Holy Spirit] wills." [1 Corinthians 12:1-11]
Clearly, from this teaching there are many diversities of gifts, differences of ministries, and diversities of activities, that are bestowed upon men and women. The Bible says that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance - He gives them, and does not take them away, and they are under the direction and control of the person who receives them.
However, as signalled by the word BUT in verse 7, these are DIFFERENT from the Manifestation of the Spirit, which are usually termed, inaccurately, the "9 gifts of the Spirit" - but are in fact not so much "gifts" but rather the manifestation - the evidence, the spiritual illumination of the Spirit. They are not "gifts" because they are not given to any one person on a permanent basis, for as the Word says, they are given as and when the Spirit wills. Man has no involvement in when or how these 9 manifestations occur. All we can do is cooperate and make ourselves available to be used by Holy Spirit in the supernatural manifestation of these things, in order that the Body of Christ might be edified - built up.
Now, if you have never seen these manifestations in operation, you will not be able to properly understand them.
Jesus gave the Church "gifts" - these were the appointments, in the Body of Christ, of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers - the Elders of the Church [see Ephesians 4:11]. They operate in these callings by means of the manifestations of Holy Spirit - those identified in v7-11 of 1 Corinthians 12, and are empowered in these positions of ministry for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. [Ephesians 4:12-14]
These are the "differences of ministries" under the same Lord, that Paul itemizes in 1 Corinthians 12:5.
Note that the "work of the ministry" is NOT what the pastor does (or any of the other "ministries" established by Jesus, it's what the saints (that's the whole company of believers) are called to do. That is why we should expect the supernatural manifestations of Holy Spirit to operate, to a measure, within every believer's life, as the Holy Spirit deems necessary. I know this to be the case in my life. One of my "jobs" at church is to run the sound and recording facilities during the service. It is intended that any words of prophecy that come forth, or tongues and interpretation, are recorded. I have learnt to be guided by Holy Spirit to prepare for such moments.
A week ago, I knew not just that our pastor was going to give a tongues and interpretation, but I also had an understand of roughly what she was going to say a few minutes in advance. This particular event was unusual, as she gave a few sentences in tongues, complete with arm and body movements, then gave the interpretation in English, with the same movements repeated. It was quite an involved and extensive prophecy that came forth. I knew that we would likely have tongues and interpretation at some point during that service, because I have learnt that, at least in our church, if we have visitors then this usually happens. Otherwise we are usually only having simple prophecy, Words of Knowledge and Words of Wisdom coming forth. This is quite scriptural, since Paul clearly teaches that tongues and interpretations are a sign for unbelievers - meaning those who do not know about or are unschooled in spiritual things. We also have spiritual songs come forth [Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16] on a regular basis from several of the church members.
In addition, it says in 1 Corinthians 12:28:
"And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues."
The context refers to the operation of these ministries and activities [1 Corinthians 12:5-6] in the local church - it is not talking about individual believer's lives.
The list is in fact the same as that in Ephesians 4:11. The "miracles, then gifts of healings" are for the evangelist, helps, administrations refers to the pastor, and varieties of tongues has to do with the teacher of the Word. Paul explains what the "varieties of tongues" are designed to do: to give the Body revelation, knowledge, prophesy and teaching - see 1 Corinthians 4:6.
Furthermore, Helps are all those activities that have to be accomplished in the local Church, under the direction of the pastor, for it to function properly, which in practice includes, but is not limited to, ushers, greeters, the worship team (singers, musicians, worship leaders), book stall manager, media (overhead projector, sound technician, recording technician), visitations, help for the poor, prison ministries, etc, etc. - a real cornucopia of "diversities of activities". People have natural "giftings" that God gives to each person, to enable them to function in one or more of these "activities" that need to take place in the Church.
So we see that there are "differences of ministries", "diversities of gifts" and "diversities of activities". All involve people, and are necessary for the successful task of completing the "work of the ministry". As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12:29-30, not everyone is "called " to be an apostle, a prophet, a teacher, and evangelist (worker of miracles), gifts of healings or bring forth revelations and knowledge through speaking in tongues. The latter gifts tend to be the province of the pastor(s), since they are the ones who are in charge in the local church, and can minister on a regular basis to their congregation, whereas the evangelist is usually out on the road, preaching the Gospel
However, all these are NOT the same as the manifestations of Holy Spirit, as listed in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11. These manifestations of supernatural power are available to any believer, irrespective of their calling to the ministry, or the giftings that they have received to enable to them to fulfil their God given roles in the local Church, but only as Holy Spirit wills.
Paul is VERY careful to distinguish between these manifestations and all other spirituals that God has given to the Church, because they are not given to anyone person on a permanent basis, rather to whomever is available and willing at any given moment.
Anyway, this is another penny's worth - I hope someone finds it helpful.
John
Alesia has a new post of a Pastor Chan sermon on her site. I highly recommend it. It gave me something to think about.
Joel has a new post....
John
Famous evangelical apologist changes his mind
John,
I have come to understand many of the things you just posted because I've been studying those matters for awhile now.
If I act upon those things you just mentioned: seeking the Lord in prayer, praying in tongues, asking for Wisdom, Knowledge, Dicernment, and Revelation concerning a particular matter and believe that God will provide the answer. Then when I receive the answer or revelation should I believe it was God given?
Or should I doubt it and just think that it "could" have been an answer from God but not be sure about it?
Mac,
Yeah for RC Sprowl! Finally someone who changes for the good instead of the bad !
Yippee!! Praise the Lord!
I hope this will be contagious!
Other than the Bible-and Yes I do read it everyday. I'm now onto the Feasts of the Lord. My typical day I spend at least 6 hours studying if not more. (This will now change since schools out.)
Just wanted to be rooted in the Jewish Feasts and meanings.
So if this 2014/2015 Sun/Moon sign has anything to do with the end of the Tribulation then we should be looking out for June 9th which is Shavout and Sept 30th-(but there is a 24 hour window-don't no the day or hour)which is Rosh Hashanah or Feast of the Trumpets.
Let's mark our calanders just in case. Something significant usually happens on these days anyway.
A Christian lady I spoke with today just had a dream she was at a large circular table with some family. The table was decorated beautifully and on each plate was a muffin/roll with a cross on it.
(I told her what I thought it meant but any takers?)
Lisa
SELF-MADE NAKBA
(I told her what I thought it meant but any takers?)
Sorry, Lisa, I failed dream interpretation exams when I was a New Ager.
My mom always gets the traditional 'hot cross buns' for Good Friday (see a photo/history at Wikipedia.)
That's what came to my mind first.
Lisa,
You said:
If I act upon those things you just mentioned: seeking the Lord in prayer, praying in tongues, asking for Wisdom, Knowledge, Dicernment, and Revelation concerning a particular matter and believe that God will provide the answer. Then when I receive the answer or revelation should I believe it was God given?
If the answer is completely in line with the Word of God, then it is God's answer.
However, if there is the slightest doubt, it's not.
Having said that, you need to KNOW what the Word of God says.
You can ask God for wisdom. You can ask Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth. However, you should not seek revelation or discernment - the enemy can counterfeit these. The Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom, discerning of spirits are not something you can get as a gift from God - they will come to you ONLY as and when the Holy Spirit gives them to you. If you seek them, Satan will accommodate you, and give you something that is NOT from God.
The Word is the final authority in everything. You get revelation ONLY when the Logos becomes a Rhema word for you - it comes no other way, unless someone (an Elder in one of the 5-fold ministries) is given a Word of Wisdom for you from Holy Spirit - and that should alway be received with care, making sure it conforms to the word of God, and with what you already know in your own life.
"Discernment of spirits" is a manifestation of Holy Spirit - it's the ability to see into the spirit realm - not limited to demons or angels; it is not the ability to discern evil from good, or make a judgment on a person's behavior and actions, or even their ministry. The only way we have to determine if someone is in error is to look into the Word and see what the Word says.
John
Hi mac,
I am still here, but dropping in less and less frequently I am afraid. Part of the reason for this is I have been really busy. However, the main reason I haven't been dropping in as much is that there has been a discussion going on now for at least two weeks that I am extremely tired of. This is only the most recent of many, many discussions that have been held on this particular topic on this site and on Joel's site over the past year or so. I am not the only one who feels this way, but we have kept silent so as to not make waves. However, I can't sit on my hands any longer. It has gone way too far.
I recall someone complaining about too much talk about Nephilim, but this other topic has far surpassed in volume any discussion we have had on Nephilim or any other topic to date.
I agree with overcomer's comment may days ago. I have never prayed to get this "gift", and I have no desire to ever get it. For that matter, I don't even belief in it. I think it was a gift given to the apostles for a specific reason. Period.
I have been a Christ follower for over three decades now and in that time I have met, heard speak, seen videos by and read books written by many pastors, missionaries, Christian apologists, Christian authors, etc. Of all these people that I look up to and consider to be spiritual giants, I can not name one of them who possesses this particular "gift" or if they do, they have never felt it important enough to mentioned it. I have yet to meet a man who is more spiritual, more humble and prays with more fervor than my brother's father-in-law. If anyone has a more direct link to God, or is in more touch with God than he is, I have yet to meet him or her.
This is a pretty good barometer for me. I have also found that things that are controversial in the church are 9 times out of 10 things to keep away from. This definitely falls into the extremely controversial category.
Saying that someone is more spiritually mature who possesses this gift and that it is a gift for all believers is also a big fallacy and by saying it, it does a lot more harm than good.
My primary purpose for existing is to bring others to Christ. I have asked myself, if I was a non-believer and I heard and saw someone using this "gift", am I likely to be intrigued and want to experience what this person is experiencing, or am I more likely to runaway and think that this person clearly has something wrong with them. I would have to definitely say the later of the two.
People think Christians are weird and deluded enough as it is without giving them further reason to think so.
Well, that is all I have to say on this topic. I am sorry if I offended anyone, because that is not my intention. I felt I had to be honest, and I feel I have been more than patient as this discussions have continued.
Please do not bother responding to my post (yes boatman, I am particularly talking to you). I have heard it all before (many, many times). You are not going to convince me, so don't bother wasting the blog space trying.
I think I am one of the most berean people I know. I will listen to people's arguments on just about anything, but I have heard and seen enough on this topic to know what my opinion is and will always be.
God Bless,
Harold
Regarding "discernment" in these times... and being deceived by lying signs and wonders...
Scripture tells us to be knowledgeable in the Word, so that we are able to distinguish between good and evil. [Hebrews 5:14]
In 1 Timothy 4:1-3 it says:
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
This is speaking of people who follow after deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. It also gives guidelines as to how we can identify these people - inveterate liars who are forbidding their followers to get married, and forbidding certain foods.
In 1 John 4:1-3 it says we are to
test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
This passage tells us how to test the spirits of the prophets, and to judge whether or not their lifestyles and utterances agree with the Word (i.e. what manner of people are these prophets - like the FLDS cult leader, Warren Jeffs, or some of the other self styled messiahs or polygamous cult leaders?) - if they confess Jesus as Lord, they are of God, if they don't they are not.
One also needs to look at the fruit and lifestyle - polygamy, adultery, fraud, child sex, forced marriages, taking children from their mothers, requiring that they be worshiped - I think its pretty clear these people are not of God.
Now, concerning being deceived by evil spirits in these last days, with lying signs and wonders....
I cannot find anything in the NT that indicates that this can happen BEFORE the AC shows up. Afterwards is a TOTALLY different story.
We can be deceived by "empty words" [Ephesians 5:6]
We can be deceived by "persuasive words" [Colossians 2:3]
We can be caused to depart from the faith by giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. [1 Timothy 4:1]. You can avoid this by knowing the Word. Some of the issues I have been bringing up, that concern the traditions of men and religion overshadowing what the Word clearly says, include such doctrines:
* that healing is not for today;
* God sends sickness to teach us;
* that tongues are of the devil,
* that the "gifts" of the Spirit are not for to day and any such manifestations are of the devil.
All of these are "doctrines of demons". Much of the Church has been deceived into not reading the Word, or not believing what it says by these doctrines.
We can deceive ourselves, by being hearers and not doers of the Word. [James 1:22]
We can deceive ourselves, by thinking we are religious and by not bridling our tongues [James 1:26]
We deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin [1 John 1:8]
It is only when the subject of the AC - the man of sin - is introduced is there any reference to being deceived by lying signs and wonders [2 Thessalonians 2:9-10]:
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved..
Note that the ones in this case who are being deceived are those who are not saved. There is nothing about the saints being deceived.
Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:24 is directed to those who are living during the Tribulation period, not before, which ties into Pauls comments in Thessalonians.
I don't think we have quite reached that stage yet.
In conclusion, this focus on the Church being deceived by lying signs and wonders seems to be a religious tradition, not backed up by the Word. It's a doctrine from lying spirits and demons, who are attempting to nullify the power and effectiveness of the Word of God.
In other word, as I have said before, the biggest risk of being deceived comes from not knowing what the whole counsel of God says, not knowing what the Word says, and being more receptive of traditions of men and religion than of the Truth - which, since we have the Word, is no excuse.
John
Loved ones,
I hate so much seeing or sensing the underlying 'tensions' among some of us who post here and hurt for those who possibly visit but don't post and might be 'turned off' by some of the comments and interpretations, and even more so by our attitudes.
Though I believe that each one of us should be allowed to hold to and have the freedom to express our personal convictions, I think that 'after a while' we should discontinue the discussion in length on this site. When individuals express an ongoing interest in a particular topic, would it not be more feasible to take the continued discussion to your personal blog site. In this way, the 'cave' could maintain a welcoming atmosphere for everyone and no one would feel threatened or intimidated.
I just don't want my brothers and sisters to feel 'put down' because of their personal convictions or 'intimidated' because they don't share the same personal convictions.
I learn something each time I visit the cave, and my convictions are made stronger regardless of whether I agree with your interpretations or not. Many times I am sent straight to the Word to clarify or verify or dismiss specific teachings or topics. I think hearing from each other is important.
I agree with Harold (not in the topic he discussed tonight) but in the point he made. The 'keeping on''keeping on' on certain topics really can be tiring. BUT...certain topics interest me and I might like to discuss further. In a situation like this, I need to click on the name of the one who is leading that particular discussion and take my questions and comments to his or her blog site. That way, if others care to, they can do the same...and the cave stays warm and cozy and inviting to all.
I am concerned that we don't allow Satan to win in any situation among us...in our words, in our actions, and especially in our attitudes. I'm reminded of the scripture in Matthew 10:34-39 where Jesus said, Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's enemies will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. and he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Come on, guys and gals, let's get it together and get our focus back on track. Let's keep our eyes on Jesus Christ and on the prize of our high calling. Let's stay together and keep loving each other and considering one another more than we consider ourselves. Are we willing to lose our life for His sake? If so, we are assured to find it.
Blessings to all! (Mary)
Well said, Mary!
Harold, it’s good to hear from you and I’m sure you know where I’m at with all this. Please do continue to fellowship. We need, and look forward to, your input (and Atty/Grumpy’s) – especially in these exciting “end” times.
As for the controversial stuff - there’s some stuff said here that I disagree with and some stuff said here I think is downright misleading. But it isn’t my blog and it isn’t a church. This is a place for fellowship, sharing, prayer and support - not preaching. That’s the way I see it, anyway. Stay in touch and say hi to ATTY.
John, you said, "Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:24 is directed to those who are living during the Tribulation period, not before, which ties into Pauls comments in Thessalonians."
All Jesus teaching in Mt. 24 was applicable and relevant to His audience. How can we tell? He was speaking directly to His disciples. He uses the pronoun "you" all through out His discourse.
He gives a warning just before He begins His instruction. "See to it that no one misleads you."
When does the text shift from His disciples to a different audience?
I've said it before. His disciples were believers. He doesn't say, "You will be taken out of here therefore you have nothing to worry about but for those left behind this and this and this will happen." He starts out with a warning and then uses "you" all throughout His discourse.
Paul's comments were just as relevant to his audience as well when he tells them that the day of the Lord, which the Thessalonians thought they were in, would not come before the man of lawlessness is revealed first.
If you read 2 Th. 1:7 you can see what Paul is saying had relevance to his audience:
"...and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire..."
Comparing scripture with scripture, what Paul is referring to above is exactly what Jesus is referring to when He says in Mt. 24:13 - "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved."
(I'm hoping to steer the discussion back to end times...)
I didn't sound like I was preaching did I? Just giving my observations of the text in Mt. 24 and 2 Th.
Hey Y'all, I must admit that I didn't see Mary's post or Harold's or Mac's before I posted. I'd just caught a glimpse of John's. Before I turn in I'd just like to leave you with the words from Psalm 100:
"Shout joyfully to the LORD, all the earth. Serve the LORD with gladness; Come before Him with joyful singing. Know that the LORD Himself is God; It is He who made us and not we ourselves; We are His people and the sheep of His pasture. Enter His gates with thanksgiving, And His courts with praise. Give thanks to Him; bless His name. For the LORD is good; His lovingkindness is everlasting, And His faithfulness to all generations."
Shalom, all!
There's a new post at Joel's.
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
Hi Everyone,
I agree with Mac, Harold and the others.
I believe we need to get back to end times discussions.
Also the long posts make it hard for the dial ups to get on to read the whole blog. I would suggest that if you have a long post, that you give a brief description and provide a link to it.
Debbie
In His Love and looking up!
Harold,
Many feel as you do, unfortunately. This makes me sad because I value the fellowship here immensely.
There are many that no longer post here, that I was learning sooo much from. I miss each & everyone of them, tremendously.
Good points Harold, Mary, Mac, Kathy & Deb.
God Bless,
Jim - this is for you!
Have you seen this? The Roman Catholic Church is in negotiations with Saudi Arabia to build a Church. The Catch is that the Catholic Church must recognise Mohammed as a Prophet of God.
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=1.0.1993520344
http://www.pewsitter.com/view_news_id_7306.php
I am still desperately trying to catch up on all fronts. Hope all are well!
Yours in Christ
jeri.
First of all--Hi jeri!!! Hi Harold! I have missed you!
I finally got to read Dead Heat and I know you have all probably done so and discussed...but as I am just coming back--I wanted to say something about it I found interesting.
I always wonder, if we are truly in the end times, how is the US not a factor? In Joels book, it is because the US, after years of supporting Israel--doesnt veto a vote that is harmful to them.
"He who blesses Israel the Lord will bless, and those who curse Israel, the Lord will curse." (Genesis 12:30)
Sooo--what about this...
Obama gets voted in, and changes our entire approach toward Israel.
That would explain it, no?
Thoughts?
In His Name!
Just to let you know that I read every post for the most part and love the learning here! I just do not feel like I have alot to contribute.
Mary~~~awesome post and response and I agree 100%! Beautifully put!
We really need each other right now. I feel like I get more spiritual food here than at the church we currently attend.
We can all see that we are approaching something very big and that the birth pangs are increasing.
This is not the time to allow the enemy to cause this kind of trouble. Stand for the truth, YES! Fight with each other, NO!
Grace
John,
Your comment:
"However, you should not seek revelation or discernment - the enemy can counterfeit these."
Interesting that these two are singled out. I look into this more.
Lisa
I agree with what Harold, Mary, MAc, Deb, Alesia and others have said as well.
I think its a great idea for some folks here to lead folks to their blogs is they are interested in pursuing some of these unusual/controversial topics.
:)
Interesting article. No one is coming to the defense of Israel. Poetic words but no action.
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3545490,00.html
JCChick~
If our current president is all flowery words and no action, what will Obama do? Good point.
I think this country is on the brink of change just like his campaign slogan promoted. The change is not going to be good.
Grace
I forgot who made the suggestion but I think that solves much of the upheavel here.
If there is something we want to hash out with one another-we can do it on our blog pages. Then if someone is interested in viewing that particular discussion you can
go look it up. We can post what the discussion is and where to find it but not make everyone here read it and take up space at the cave.
Some of these topics may include:
Rapture/Day of the Lord sequence
Catholic view on Mary & the Saints
Spiritual Gifts & tongues
(And others I'm not recalling)
Some people don't appreciate the bantering back and forth and it creates a tense atmosphere.
I'm an exception to the rule but certainly would like to respect the feelings of others here.
Lisa
Grace,
That was interesting and thought this comment was quite wise:
"Therefore, it would be proper to treat America as an ally, a partner for peace, and a supporter during war - not as an apron that we can hide behind when the moment of truth comes"
Mac,
"Sorry, Lisa, I failed dream interpretation exams when I was a New Ager."
Is that a joke or did you really look into dream interpretation in the New Age venue?
I don't mind the topics per se it-s the interminable discussion of them when the majority have let their opinions be known. I don't know that any of the topics listed by Lisa should be off limits completely.
the one caution about pulling it to other blogs is that not all have other blogs to post on and if there aren't more than a couple of people we don't need a I said you said thing going on either with people taking sides.
From my perspective the issues that have been discussed to practically the point of beating them to death are tongues and pre wrath views. If we're going to include any contentious subjects like Mary and sightings of then to be fair we should include anything about nephilium, things like earthquake resurrection, seals open now or not, emergent church good or bad, osas, saturday vs sunday, faith healing vs medicine, dominion now theology etc. Do you all see where I'm going with this? I don't mind the occasional post from Jim about Marian sightings and Marian doctrine since it gives me a better idea of where some Catholics are coming from. If I had to read several days worth of posts I'd probably be a little disgusted and not post either. Same however is true of some of the other things that have been discussed like all the stuff about Earthquake resurrection. We can not turn this into a places of cliques divided along thought lines or the enemy has won.
so for me
1-the occasional post and even a couple of days of discussion is not a problem even if I don't agree with the subject. I completely don't agree with any of the Marian doctrine but I also don't think Jim pummels us with it or other catholic theology either and he generally only brings it up in response to something someone has specifically asked. The man doesn't believe quite a bit of what any of us believe yet is always courteous and you don't really hear him complaining about endless discussions of the rapture for example. If a topic drives you crazy-don't read the posts on it. If I have strong feelings on something I generally don't read posts from that person while a discussion about certain topics is ongoing or I read just enough to make sure it is still being discussed by that person and move on.
2-if someone brings something up that is likely to touch off a new debate with the same old material being drug out- if you feel the need to respond please respond with "you all know how I feel and I won't belabor the point. we can discuss it at my blog" Do not rehash the same arguments that have been rehashed ad nauseum and likely won't be solved in this lifetime. If you have a new point to make for or against by all means post. When things deteriorate to the same old same old please take it elsewhere and make it all public so that there is a record of exactly what is said and by whom.
As far as Obama goes
I heard an interesting comment from Glenn Beck on an Obama presidency last night
"His would be the most toxic politically correct Presidency ever seen"
I think if Obama is the one elected that ISrael will be on her own-one only has to look at the people the man surrounds himself with both in his younger years and now-quite a few are anti semitic. It ain't rocket science.
Good points, Jib, at 7:04 and I personally agree.
JIB - I quite agree with your 7:04 post as well.
I don't think we should say certain topics are completely off limit. But I think all of us are wise enough to see when a topic is causing division & should then be respectful of the group, as a whole.
Are we ready for a new post? Someone said they were having a hard time with dial-up due to the long posts.
Lisa, Shalom! RE: the Christian lady's dream:
Not a whole lot to go on, but I'll give it a shot. (BTW, if she's of an English background, this interpretation would make a whole lot more sense.) Circular table, beautifully decorated = festive occasion, where all are equal. Where there is a circular table, there's no head; with no head, there's no assigning prestige by the distance from the head, i.e., the Knights of the Round Table. The muffin/rolls with the cross on it sounds like a hot cross bun, a tradition food served at Easter in England (if I'm not mistaken).
<><
Jeri from SA, Shalom! Yeah, I saw what the Saudis said about no churches in Saudi Arabia until the Catholics recognize Muhammad as a prophet. That'll happen when we start using grape juice and potato chips for Communion. It does tie in with the post I made yesterday about the Saudis trying to claim pre-eminence in the Islamic world, of being "the Vatican of Islam." I believe the present Grand Mufti of Mecca is appointed the the King. I tell you, if we start seeing a collection of inmans getting together and electing the next Grand Mufti in a secret ballot, we'll be seeing the creation of a true anti-Church, assuming all the dignity and ritual with none of the legitimacy.
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
Alesia, bring on the new post!
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Jim - Your wish is my command.
New post is up & I'll even let someone else make the first comment.
Feeling generous today!
hahaha
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