We ought to give thanks for all fortune: if it is good, because it is good, if bad, because it works in us patience, humility and the contempt of this world and the hope of our eternal country.
-CS Lewis-
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150 comments:
Nate - I gave you two whole minutes to make the first post!
Slow poke! hahaha
Christian Pilots run out of gas
Great post, Grany!!
Now....the rest of you....get your butts back here....NOW!!!
We miss and love ALL of you!!
The Scientists have it all figured out now.
Natural Disasters Perfectly Normal
Shalom, all! Lisa, "The Happening" is on my summer movie list -- I love M. Night Shyamalan! Doesn't look like a movie for your girls, though.
Grany, her graduation ceremony was 90 minutes away (and that's when I'm only slightly breaking the speed limit), so, NO, I did not ride my scooter there! I've been riding it everyplace else, though, and I can tell how little gas I'm buying.
Personally, I think the activity has died down on the blog because there's really not that much happening that's worth discussing. I just feel a sense of waiting, of anticipation. It's almost like what I felt before 9/11 -- I remember for almost the entire month of August thinking that things were too quiet, that SOMETHING was going to happen. I know I'll probably feel better after June 2 -- that's when the 40th year of the Unification of Jerusalem ends -- if nothing has happened by then.
I don't know if any of you get EWTN, but there's a show coming up some of you may find interesting. On June 4, there's a half-hour program on "CHRISTIANS OF NINEVEH: An overview of the Christian history and present day life of the country of Iraq." It's on at 3AM Eastern (Midnight Pacific) and again at 6:30PM Eastern (3:30PM Pacific). Mac, if you're interested, I'll get the dates and times from the Pacific Rim schedule.
<><
Lisa & whoever else is interested,
Here is a site I found on Olive Tree Ministries with multiple interesting articles (some are a few years old but still applicable):
New World Order
Well, Jim, maybe you are right.
BTW, your graduation day sounded like a crazy day! I'm glad you made it to both! They must have appreciated it! The weather sounded scarey!
Are your daughters twins? Or one graduated from high school and the other jr high?
Also...remember I told you all that my husband had not gotten paid, etc? He finally got paid last week for that work!
Unbelievable he had to wait that long!
Night!
slow day today on all fronts.
Nate
you were too funny with all those posts.
Shalom, all! This has to do with the Church of England, but I think the attitudes affect us all:
Bishops battle it out over Muslims
Church of England row over Muslim conversion
Jesus I trust in you.
<><
Interesting articles, Jim. You have to wonder when churches don't want to rock the boat and don't want to reach the lost.
Bolton: Little Alternative to Iran Strike
Disasters: A Megaphone of God?
By Jan Markell
Thanks to mac and alesia for this place to read and rest...the new post was for me.The past few weeks have been challenging and I have felt like a failure on all fronts...looking for how to have joy and finding it elusive since I seem to be surrounded by so many that are "blind"...and not just to the times but to the BASICS of kindness, love, and courtesy!
I know complaining is like poison to the soul so I have been listening to worship music and praying and reading my Bible...and of course reading here for encouragement. Last post had 2 great ones...the "eighth day" and the one on "joy"...thank you to those who posted the links!
'Endure to the end' and 'staying in the race' are my mantras for now ....while I wait on Him to lead me ....
Anyway...many thanks again for the words of wisdom and multiple links to encouragement that I find here....and also for each and EVERY one of you...you are all loved and prayed for! hugs from VA!
Here are some thoughts on the "Florida Revival" from a Charismatic's perspective.
Revival Debate
There were some parts of this lecture that were interesting. Specifically the greek meanings of
"taken" and "left" in Matthew 24:40
One Taken the other Left
Anyway, something to consider.
Lisa
Lisa
I think that was a nice balanced article on Lakeland. I remain unconvinced however than one needs to roll around uncontrollably to be viewed as being filled with the Spirit. There more than likely are visible signs of being filled but not sure it involves behavior which could easily be interpreted as being other than Spirit filled. Shouting for joy, falling on one's face in awe in gratitude and humbleness of heart at what God has done, singing songs of praise, telling others about Christ but more than that I would think that being Spirit filled should lead to a obviously changed life in the long run. For me, being filled with the Spirit is not just a revival thing, expressions of whatever at a revival and in church but a lifelong thing, a daily thing even in the mundane. Being Spirit filled should impact my life daily not just at a revival or in church. Also food for thought. There hopefully is proper discipling being set up.
Joel's talk at the past present future conference is finally up
PPF Archives
MommyJen, Shalom! You wrote:
I know complaining is like poison to the soul... Don't think of it as complaining. Think of it as discharging a noxious byproduct into the sewage system. Complaining goes on and on. Discharging happens just once and can be done with a friend, with a group, or to G_D.
<><
excellent commentary from Jeffery Lord on Spectator about not being able to see evil
Seeing Evil
then today there was an excellent letter to the editor from someone named Glen on this article-it's about half way down. both are well worth reading.
Suite at the Hanoi Hilton
love the definition Jim
I needed that one today
Shalom, all! Just a few comments before running some errands.
A few days ago I posted a link to the Vatican's document on Christianity and New Age religions (JESUS CHRIST, THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE) Yesterday, someone on the Catholic Answers forum brought up this document in discussing the differences between Catholic/Christian mysticism and New Age mysticism. Lots of the responders touched on different styles of prayers, some of which may be practiced in your churches. If you're interested in the discussions, you can read them here.
One of the responders is a monk (a friar, actually, but that's beside the point) who runs the St. Padre Pio Center for Deliverance Counseling, which provides spiritual counseling for those who are suffering from Spiritual Warfare problems. He wrote an essay for their Spiritual Warfare Library called Three Secret Strategies
of Satan to Destroy our Children, our Families, our Culture, and our Church. The third secret strategy he lists is "Never step on toes", which I found this interesting in light of the article I linked to yesterday about the Church of England hesitant about evangelizing Muslims in England.
Another link from this site is a song called Ten Thousand Angels, which is available at this link. It was written by a woman who was looking for a song of healing and mercy after a friend's daughter had been diagnosed with Cystic Fibrosis. After praying to the Lord, this song was what was given.
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
Jib,
I thought some might like to read that article. I posted it so we can undestand the Charismatic viewpoint.
After I dissected the root of "Todd Bentley" and his claims-you all know my perspective on the matter.
Even if we don't agree with a viewpoint it's still valuable to try to understand where other people's thoughts and ideas are coming from.
Our backgrounds and experiencs all effect us on how we relate to these situations that will no undoubtedly arise.
Lisa,
I learned about the usage/meaning of "paralambano" when I was watching a video of Robert Van Kampen teaching on Matthew 24. Those "taken" are "received near" to Christ and it is the same Greek word in John 14:3 when Jesus told the disciples that He was coming again and would "receive" them to Himself.
There are so many articles of interest on the foxnews page, I'm just going to link the home page.
For example
'Hezbollah Makes Al Qaeda
Look Like Minor Leagues'
'Iran Targeting Christian Converts'
Video Purportedly Showing Space Aliens to Be Released
- Creative Marriage Proposal Sparks UFO Alert
Yes, that's how it was defined but in a different context. But following is what I realized from taking another look at this passage & the "received near" explaination.
Pre-Matthew 24:36 There is great distress. False Christs, Natural Disasters,Christians being killed, Jews fleeing to the mountains.Judgment and general havoc. He says when you see all these things happen you know the 2nd coming is near.It seems like the Christians will at least know the "season" & when the sun and moon are darkened here He comes. (This time period does not seem like everything is business as usual as in the days of Noah.This is a time of calamity)
(Previously when I said Matt:24 doesn't have anything to do w/the rapture I was wrong. Now I realize how confusing it is because it switches back and forth-like Revelation does.)
Then in Matthew 24:36 you have a different time period. It's happy. People are not concerned with much but are eating,drinking,marrying.
Life is going on as usual.Then suddenly the righteous are "taken" or "received near" Christ.The others are "left" on earth.
Then is goes onto the wise servant,virgins,& talents. Basically saying be responsible,watch,and be ready for His return beause you don't know when the master is coming back.
Then in Matt 25:31 It switches back again to the 2nd coming when the nations are gathered for judgment. People are seperated like sheep and goats.
So that in my opinion is the reason for all this confusion.
(I know your prewrath-and I don't want to start another debate but thought I better clarify my lightbulb moment.)
And to think we were getting no news? I guess we just had to wait a couple hours.
Iceland Rocked by 6.1 earthquake
Jim C.,
We need you. What's up with this? It can't be good.
Ahmadinejad wants to meet with Pope
Pray for our Christain Brother 21-year-old Mojtaba Hussein
“He may not be willing to give up the names of other Muslim converts. He may not be willing to recant his faith himself,” Moeller said.
To those lost souls bound in mortal sin:
THIS IS YOUR HOUR OF MERCY!
To those enslaved by pornography,
Come to Me, the Image of God
To those who are committing adultery,
Come to Me, the Faithful One
To prostitutes, and those who use or sell them,
Come to Me, your Beloved
To those engaging in unions outside the bounds of marriage,
Come to Me, your Bridegroom
To those who worship the god of money,
Come to Me, without paying and without cost
To those in witchcraft or bound in the occult,
Come to Me, the Living God
To those who have made covenant with Satan,
Come to Me, the New Covenant
To those drowning in the abyss of alcohol and drugs,
Come to Me, who am Living Waters
To those enslaved in hatred and unforgiveness,
Come to Me, Fount of Mercy
To those who have taken the life of another,
Come to Me, the Crucified One
To those who are jealous and envious, and murder with words,
Come to Me, who am jealous for you
To those who are enslaved by love of self,
Come to Me, who has laid down His life
To those who once loved me, but have fallen away,
Come to Me, who refuses no soul…. and I will blot out your offences, and forgive your transgressions. I will remove your sins, as far as the east is from the west.
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I command the chains which hold you to be broken. I command every principality and power to release you.
I open my Sacred Heart to you as a hiding place and refuge. I will refuse no soul who returns to Me trusting in My infinite Mercy and Love.
THIS IS YOUR HOUR OF MERCY.
Run home to Me, my beloved, run home to Me, and I will embrace you as a Father, clothe you as My child, and protect you like a Brother.
To the one in mortal sin,
Come to Me! Come, before the last few grains of Mercy fall through the hourglass of time…
THIS IS YOUR HOUR OF MERCY!
Thank you, Jim, that was beautiful.
Netanyahu: We won't leave Golan, Jerusalem will never again be divided
YAY Bibi!
I signed up for this newsletter and really like it. They have a new one out today which is great but it's too long to post the entire thing. I'll give you a clip.
El Shaddai Ministries Newsletter sign up
Zep 1:14-18 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
I think from the plain meaning of the text, this sounds like the tribulation. Then in chapter two, notice how many times he says “before” almost like hurry, hurry, hurry, it is so close to coming upon you like a tornado out of nowhere, get in the basement! This is what God says to do just before, as He told Noah what to do:
Zep 2:2,3 Before the decree(of the tribulation) bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
(That’s a good thing)
So, here we have the warning that the tribulation is basically upon a generation; followed by the urgency to prepare. Then God gives the generation one of the first signs that the tribulation is at the door, in the very next verse:
Zep 2:4 For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation!!
Ashkelon has been coming under attack even as recently as last week! It is the beginning of the end coming for Ashkelon!!
The good news is it goes on to say:
Zep 2:5-7 Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, (Gaza strip) I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant. And the sea coast shall be dwellings and cottages for shepherds, and folds for flocks. And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah; they shall feed thereupon: in the houses of Ashkelon shall they lie down in the evening: for the LORD their God shall visit them, and turn away their captivity.
Eze 9:4,6 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
The word “mark” in Hebrew is actually the word for the Hebrew letter “Tav” so He was saying put the letter Tav on each of their foreheads. Strongs #8420
So what did the letter Tav look like in those days?
Now let’s look at the word “Torah” which is mistranslated as “law”. It actually means instruction or teaching. Hebrew is right to left and here
is how it looks in modern Hebrew:
cant see
but I want to show you the ancient Hebrew:
The first letter is the Tav or a cross. A mark or a sign
The next letter is the Vav or a nail; to attach
The next letter is the Reysh or a head; means the highest person
The last letter is the hey or a window; means to reveal Torah
When Moses wrote it in the picture language it showed what it really meant:
To Reveal / The Highest person / Nailed / To the sign of Covenant!!!
Maybe we should keep our eyes on Ashkelon, no?
City of Ashkelon
History of Ashkelon
Ashkelon News Today
Lisa, Shalom! You asked if I could make any sense out of the actions of Ahmadinejad. All I can say is that this chess player is setting up his pieces VERY carefully.
If you check the dates on the stories, the one about A-jad asking for a meeting with the Pope was filed yesterday, and the one about the Christians being arrested in Iran was filed today. He's definitely setting up something to use the Christians as pawns in order to extract something from His Holiness. He will probably never mention it outright to anyone in the Vatican, but it will always be there -- the Vatican statesmen will know about it, and A-jad will know that they know it.
The Christian persecution may be something as simple as wanting the Vatican to act as a go-between in some negotiations (with the US? Israel?) or even more simple: to ensure a meeting and not an audience. In a meeting, both A-jad and the Pope are treated as equals. Since they are both heads of state, that would be the expected action, especially if there were "views" that needed to be exchanged face to face.
However, the Pope could have chosen to grant A-jad an "audience". In an audience, things are unequal -- the person comes to the Pope, and while there may be a conversation, it is either the Pope accepting a report or handing down some information. It sounds like the Vatican was trying to decide whether to have the Pope meet individually with each leader during the summit or whether to have a general audience with all the leaders at once. A-jad's actions towards the Christians seems to be a way to insure that no matter what else happens, A-jad will get his meeting with the Pope.
My guess is that A-jad will try to get the Pope to use his influence to get world opinion to move against the US and Israel in order to prevent either of those countries from attacking Iraq. In exchange, A-jad will promise to ease up on the Christian persecution. Personally, I think that after working so closely with John Paul II for all those years, Benedict won't be easily flim-flammed by totalitarian promises. Still, there's no telling what kind of threats A-jad may make during a face-to-face meeting. He may go back to Iraq and tell the people that he's given the pope one of the three warnings required for conversion to Islam before attacking. I don't think that's something that can be discounted.
Waiting in prayerful hope...
Jesus, I trust in you!
<><
Lisa,
I left you some observations I made of Mt. 24 at my blog in the comment section of my fig tree post.
Jib said:
"For me, being filled with the Spirit is not just a revival thing, expressions of whatever at a revival and in church but a lifelong thing, a daily thing even in the mundane. Being Spirit filled should impact my life daily not just at a revival or in church. Also food for thought. There hopefully is proper discipling being set up."
Amen to that.
Egypt Playing A Role In Moving
The Prophecy Clock Forward -
Bill Wilson
Acting Up In Church
One Sunday in a Midwest City, a young child was "acting up" during the morning worship hour.
The parents did their best to maintain some sense of order in the pew but were losing the battle.
Finally, the father picked the little fellow up and walked sternly up the aisle on his way out.
Just before reaching the safety of the foyer, the little one called loudly to the congregation,
"Pray for me! Pray for me!"
The Miracle of Jerusalem's Reunification
Bloodline: Another Unholy Hollywood Hoax?
Livni: Rising star of Israel's troubled political establishment
Thanks for the posts, Mac..
It will be really interesting to see what takes place in Israel, with all the problems Olmert is facing.
I agree with what Jim G said the other day about watching Israel and Jerusalem as far as God's timeclock goes.
Mommyjen I hope you have all recovered from the school bus scare!
<><
Wow! Some of you have been busy with the links. (it's going to take me forever to catch up)
Psst - I think Mac is turning into a link hog! bwuhahahaha
Lisa, Jim, etc., - looks like good links, can't wait to read em.
Thanks Jim for the "This is your hour of Mercy", I like it very much.
Lisa - thanks for the newsletter link!
Lindalou - saw your post elsewhere & just wanted to say AMEN sister! Couldn't agree more!
very funny
Carbon Belch Day
but also has a petition to sign to oppose legislation here in the US on global warming
I forgot if this was posted here or not-I found it through one of Jim's links.
The 1st one of 3 strategies has to do w/the Pope's position in the Church but the next two I thought were really good.
Don't Judge Anyone & Never Step on Toes.
Three Secret Strategies of Satan
Hi all,
I have a question. Has anyone heard of Andrew Womack? I went to there website and they seem right on, but I am concerned.
There is a guy a work that I talk with often about biblical stuff. He and I differ on our support of Israel. He believes we shouldn't do it or not do it as much. He believes the Jews have us hood winked. He says that we are the seed of Abraham through faith.
Kinda like the replacement theology.
He doesn't study prophecy alot so when I ask him about Israel being the center of prophecy, he just says, "well I don't know about that."
He does not support our president or the war and thinks Hagee is a nut.
Anybody have particular way they would handle this fellow? Oh yeah and he is a democrat and hopes Obama wins.
Crazy World!
Kewl links all. Love reading about everything.
Debbie
In His Love and looking up!
Debbie
Hi Debbie, I've never heard of Andrew Womack. Your friend at work certainly sounds like he believes in Replacement Theology. Here are just a few links that might help but you won't change his mind in a hurry.
Israel’s Right To The Promised Land
The Importance Of The Modern State Of Israel
The Postmodern Abandonment of Israel
Is The Modern State Of Israel Prophetically Significant?
Answering Those Who Oppose Israel
Thanks Mac.
I know I probably won't change his mind. But I think I can give him something to think about.
Let me know if you come up with anything on this Womack fellow.
In His love and looking up
Debbie
(You know..I am shock at how many people don't study prophecy. Even had a Christian fellow tell me today that he doesn't study it because it is spooky. Can you believe it?!?!?!?! )
This is probably too much information now but it's good to know it's there.
A Comparison and Contrast Between
Israel and the Church
What is Replacement Theology?
Dispensationalism
Deb, here is Andrew Wommack's home page. Looking at the statement of faith, I didn't see anything unusual. They have a Bible College and TV program and I think are charismatic. Couldn't tell what their end times beliefs are, but I didn't spend much time on it.
Debbie, here is a site which "exposes" false teachers and this page is about Wommack.
TRUE REPENTANCE
C Spurgeon
If I avoid sin today because I am afraid of being lost if I commit it, I have not the repentance of a child of God; but when I avoid it and seek to lead a holy life because Christ loved me and gave himself for me, and because I am not my own, but am bought with a price, this is the work of the Spirit of God. And again, that change of mind, that after carefulness which leads me to resolve that in future I will live like Jesus, and will not live unto the lusts of the flesh, because he hath redeemed me, not with corruptible things as silver and gold, but with his own precious blood - that is the repentance which will save me, and the repentance which he asks of me.
O ye nations of the earth, he asks not the repentance of Mount Sinai, while ye do fear and shake because his lightnings are abroad; but he asks you to weep and wail because of him; to look on him whom you have pierced, and to mourn for him as a man mourneth for his only son; he bids you remember that you nailed the Savior to the tree, and asks that this argument may make you hate the murderous sins which fastened the Savior there, and put the Lord of glory to an ignominious and an accursed death. This is the only repentance we have to preach; not law and terrors; not despair; not driving men to self-murder - this is the terror of the world which worketh death; but godly sorrow is a sorrow unto salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord.
These pictures were really great.
Muslim Pilgrimage to Mecca in Dec
This is a celebration of the time Abraham was going to sacrifice "Ishmael" to God.
Jim-- thanks for the change of thinking suggestion..I really liked it!
Donna -- you're sweet to remember the whole 'bus' thing...and yes, we have recovered and rejoiced for God watching over us..
I am so thankful that the Lord doesn't let me wallow long or stay critically minded for any length of time without kicking me back into gear.....or more appropriately, back into Him! I sat and read through Phillippians yesterday and was humbled by The Words that are truly ALIVE! Donna reminded me of one recent incident for joy and the Lord showed me many more!
What an amazing gift we have been given to experience through Jesus just some of what He lived and sacrificed for us... when I am accused unfairly for whatever it is or told what I have done is not enough because more is expected from this 'entitled' acquaintance... I have the BEST friend and mentor EVER to go to and see just how He dealt with the same situations ! My meager attempts to live like Jesus will never be close to what I should be doing, but I do have faith that He will work to get me there if I only continue to let Him. What an Awesome God to allow us this opportunity for such an intimate relationship...we are all so blessed!!
I'm praying for all of you here and for all those suffering in our world right now...may we all find and rest in The Peace and The Way...The Savior, Lord Jesus Christ! hugs to everybody!
My wanderings took me over to this area of the blog page. Specifically the JW video and teachings were great (Stuff I didn't know) and look at the Mormon handshake video.
Test All Things
It's some things you could bring up w/these folks.
Lisa
would anyone be open to doing a book/bible study on the sermon on the mount?
the book is
"The message of the sermon on the mount: Christian Counterculture" by John R Stott.
the book is out of print but there are a lot of copies out there to buy
Counterculture book
it was written some time ago-20+ years I think. I remember the book as being quite good although to be honest I haven't read it in 20 years or so. so I don't know if it would be free of emergent church stuff but think that is a relatively new thing so from that perspective might be ok. Plus I had just come out of a Christian college situation and don't remember thinking there was anything that countered anything I had studied there. our Christian student group, a very broad denominational group, met once a week and did it as a study for several weeks I think. ( I had my copy out to thumb through it recently and now can't find it. oh well has to be around here somewhere. ) As I recall we divided it up into different sections, all read the pertinent section, studied it and a different person per week was the leader of the discussion.
just a thought.
Looking at that website about false teachers it was promoting a "predestination"theology.
Stating such and such was a false prophet because they did not acknowledge "predestination." One part I had ageed with. This part I didn't.
Which I've always had a real hard time with. Something about it rubs me the wrong way as I have other biblical scripture pop up in my head that don't mix with that belief.
I went to see what the "Grace thru faith" site had to say which confirmed my thoughts on the matter.
The key is that God who is outside of time knows in advance who will accept his call.We do all have a free choice to accept it or not-but if we accept it- He will shepherd us and keep us on the right path through the power of the Holy Spirit. At this point it's through the power of the Holy Spirit we are conformed into His image-not by our own will.He will not allow one of His sheep to remain lost.
Predestination Study
Think about it.
For example: At this point in my life (@ other points in my life this was not the case-I went back to the world) there is some kind of engine driving me to seek all truths. I know this is not from my will as it is so much bigger. My will is not longer valid as I had submitted it to God's care.It started with the desire to learn and follow His ways until I eventually gave it up and threw it at the feet of Jesus. This conforming was not instantaneous but a process all accomplished by the power of God.
But-at the beginning of time as we know it-He knew the choice I would eventually make.
He tells us to beware of false prophets and teachers. He knows some will heed those words and search the scripture & rely fully in Him to be guided.
He also knows others will eventually follow what their own hearts want to hear and be led astray by not scrutinizing what is being presented as truth.They rely upon their own understanding or the wisdom of the person they're following.
So for these people-they were never really "sealed" to be His, even though they may have "appeared" to be for a season.
Everyone has been warned and without excuse.
John 10:27-30
"My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.I give them eternal life, and they will never perish-ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. The Father and I are one."
Shalom, all! I've got to dash to pick up my daughters, but I wanted to make sure you all had a chance to read Mark Bennet's latest blog entry, Made in China? It deals with questions that I know I've had, such as why America and Canada are going to be punished for the sins of abortion when places like China are so much worse. Very interesting read.
<><
interesting post on Drudge about a tribe not contacted by others. There is an estimate that there are about 100 tribes still in existence who have not had any contact with modern civilization so likely no contact with the gospel either.
Uncontacted tribe
Lisa, I'm not sure if you are talking to me about the predestination stuff. But, if you are (since I posted a link about false teachers) I was only giving Debbie info about what others are saying about Wammack. I have no opinion about what that site promotes since I haven't looked closely at it. Does that help clear things up?
I agree that God knows, at any given point in time, what an outcome will be, because He is out of time. Given this, He knows who will choose Him and who won’t. I think that no matter what He does in some people’s lives, some will only reject Him. I wonder, maybe He continuously intervenes and every intervention changes the final outcome. If He stopped intervening today then we would have a particular end outcome, but He engineers the outcome He wants for any individual who is going to accept Salvation. I’m only thinking of some instances in my life where I know that God has intervened to bring me here, whereas had He not, I’d still be lost.
JIB - Sorry - meant to respond earlier but got really bust at work.
I think that may be a great idea (your May 30, 2008 8:45 AM post)
I'm going to order the book!
FYI - my regular email is down this weekend, not up till Monday am. So, if anyone sends me email I won't get it till then. (not ignoring you, I promise)
"got really bust"??? ~gasp~ Oh no!
should have been: got really BUSY!
scuse me
and so it begins...
Blair Launches Faith Foundation to Overcome Global Problems
Alesia you busted me up with that one!
Jack Kelley of gracethrufaith.com has a new comment up and the title is "The Florida Healing Outpouring
Selah » Spiritual Life
Opinion by Jack Kelley. Well worth the read and I agree with him for whatever that is worth.
Hope you are all staying cool and collected because it is almost 9 p.m. here and it is still in the 80's and humid, oh bad! This is the kind of weather that forms those wild swirling clouds that drop down from above and change the complexion of the land.
Jib, I am very interested in the book and will get mine ordered this evening.
Everyone take care,
Grany
ha
now I have to find my book. well that's three of us-Wilma is interested.
let me know when you get your books and we can start.
thought the "bust" comment was quite funny-wasn't sure if we had to bail you out of jail :-)
or find you a new job
Josh Harris founder of New Attitude, same guy who wrote "The Room" - story on my blog - if you've not yet read, you really should! But the New Attitude is for youths & this is a great story.
Thousands of Young Christians Adopt 'Humble Orthodoxy'
I'm loving the Christian Post site!
Hi Grany! Funny - I JUST commented on that Jack Kelley article on Lisa's blog, because I thought she would be interested & was afraid to post it here!!!
Also, was that "pun" intended? hahaha
JIB - yep, work oftentimes feels like jail!
Grany
loved the article by Jack Kelly. he articulated it much better than I did in an earlier post. it is exactly what I meant.
Alesia, Pun intended and just be glad that I am trying very hard to be a "Good Girl" tonight! There were alot more remarks that came to mind but I was conservative.
I have to admit that I re-read Jack's comments and then Emailed him to tell him I appreciated his take on the revival. I hesitate to say anything about it because I don't want to hurt anyone's faith walk. But there is an old saying that I think is appropriate here, "if something seems to good to be true, it probably isn't". Well, I know that God loves to bless, heal us, and fill us to the brim with his Holiness but he does so in Order to convince us of Who He is and that his word is his promise. I just have a lot of problems with this particular man. I am praying that he really come face to face with the Master and that he receives a Real Touch from The Master, big time.
But there are other things we need to address right now and I think that as we live out each day from now on, we have to know what God has said and know it right down to the very depths of our souls, hearts and minds. Your Bible is your best friend, and if you want to hear a word from God, pick that Bible up and start hearing. He has seen fit to preserve it just for this hour (and all of the past hours) so that we don't have to walk in darkness. Keep your eyes on Him and His Word and enter His gates with praise on your lips.
I feel a big one coming on!
Grany
anne,
I was not thinking about you at all re:that link. As I was reading the arguments against that preacher is when I really started thinking about predestination. It was so pro-predestination the more I kept reading the more something didn't seem quite right.
(I don't know if anyone here believes in that theory or not.)
Mac, I agree w/your comment.
That's why Jesus says "No one will snatch them out of my hand." (We know there is someone always trying to at every opportunity.)
I was emailed this sermon and I really recommend it. The minister gave this right after 911 but it definately applies for us today.
He exposes how the false prophets/teachers are infecting the Church. What to look out for and really the point is - ground yourself in the word and make sure you rely fully on God to lead you. Even to the point that you may not even be able to stay in a public congregation.
Great sermon
He brings up 1 Samuel 18:10
"And it happened on the next day that the distressing spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied inside the house."
He said the origional word for "prophesied" here means "jerking movements" which is one way to tell a false spirit in action.
He gets so emotional at the end of the speech you can feel the pain just split your heart in half.
Hey Jib & all,
Are you ready to go on a Mission trip and contact those tribes?
Looks like we could be
Shish- ka -bobed!!
Lisa
re:Jack Kelly
I knew I liked that guy!
Lisa
This is true.
Withholding Aid for Christians
Another account from "Heavens Family":
"If you've been following the news about Myanmar, you know that the U.N Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon toured part of the devastated Irrawaddy delta earlier this week. After a walk through a makeshift relief camp where 500 people huddled in blue tents in Dedaye township, he told reporters, "I'm very upset by what I've seen."
One orphanage director bringing relief to that same area told me that the government opened the refugee camp and clinic just for show. After Ban Ki-moon left, all the refugees were forced to return to their destroyed villages. Within a few hours, all the blue relief tents were occupied by Burmese soldiers."
My mistake, Lisa. Just wanted to be clear.
Now we have preacher gone "Reality TV". (Although I can't really classify this as even a preacher. More like a fraud.)
Pussycat Preacher
Lisa,
A little while ago we had a discussion of predestination and once saved always saved going on at Overcomer. I see two sides to the salvation issue. Below is a statement made by my friend Kristen during that discussion.
"There are two perspectives when it comes to salvation. God's and man's. Scripture gives us both. From God's, we're told that before the foundations of the earth He chose us (Ephesians 1:3-5) and that our salvation is secure in His hands (John 10:27-30). From man's, we're told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12,13) and that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). So there has to be a balance. God is in control, but we are never to be lax about it. Works is the evidence of saving faith."
I think she said it very well.
Kathy
Okay. I talked with my co-worker and he said that he didn't mean that Israel didn't have a right to exist and all, but where is the call to support it the way we do. As a nation and as individuals?
I tried to explain to him that if God made a big issue about Israel so should we. He then replied that Israel is not his concern, it is God's concern.
Boy he is really out there.
He says that God will take care of Israel and that he (my co-worker) is to take care of his family and his church and to witness.
This Andrew Womack fellow teaches a good sermon but he made it seem that the Church is "Spiriutal Israel" Because we are the spiritual seed of Abraham., Gal 3.
I told him I don't think we are suppose to unconditionally support EVERYTHING that Israel does, but that as a whole, we should support it because God supports it.
Sometimes people amaze me!
Oh and Thanks for the Predestination Link, Lisa. That is another topic that throws me for a loop sometimes. I believe God chose us because we chose Him because He chose us because we chose Him....no no no.
I believe that God knew who would and so therefore He did. Still if He knew who would, why did He create those who would not only to send them to Hell? Unless someone can really nail it on the head, it is going to remain a mystery to me. I am just glad that I am one of His.
The other thing that really confuses me is when souls are created.
Also how about our spiritual life? The verse that says we were dead but now alive to Christ. Does that mean we were "spiritually dead" period? Or is our spirit actually alive and until you make Jesus your Lord, it is alive unto???? Satan? Sin? Nothing? Hell?
Or is this one of those mysteries?
Sorry to throw so much out there, but these are some of the topics this coworker and I talk about!
In HIs Love and Looking Up
Debbie
What is spiritual death?
When Adam disobeyed God, he did not drop dead physically. He continued to breathe; his heart continued to beat and all vital signs were fine. But spiritually a drastic change had taken place with respect to His relationship to God. When he sinned he was separated from God in the sense that he no longer enjoyed God’s fellowship and approval. He was now guilty and ashamed and unable to enjoy the relationship with God that he once had. Those who study the Bible often speak of this as “spiritual death.” Because of man’s sin it is impossible for him to have the spiritual relationship to God that he was meant to have.
Plain Talk On Death
But I guess we knew this already,
As things look, Israel may well attack Iran soon by Joschka Fischer, Germany's foreign minister and vice chancellor from 1998 to 2005.
"Although it is acknowledged in Israel that an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities would involve grave and hard-to-assess risks, the choice between acceptance of an Iranian bomb and an attempt at its military destruction, with all the attendant consequences, is clear. Israel won't stand by and wait for matters to take their course."
"Wars and rumors of war."
We sure have "rumors" now don't we?
The stage is being set for the next step in deception. The acceptance of "Aliens." Like the study on Chuck Missler's site: We will start to hear about them more frequently-and now this guy is setting up a "Legal" approach when communicaiton arrives.
(good picture of one too. Makes me want to close my blinds)
In Ephesians 2- Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air."
Latest Alien News
This site tracks UFO sightings & is up to date. Interesting to see if they significantly increase in the near future.
MUFONCMS
Click on this column-(good video but bad language.)
"UFO sighting in Hermosa Beach, CA April 22nd around 12:45 am"
Read this one-it's everything I've been trying to piece together.
The Upcoming Great Deception
And Others:
John Velez Testimony
John Mack Interview
Harvard Divinity School does study Alien Encounters & Abductions.
Psychology Today
Jib, could you elaborate a bit more on the book:
"The Message of the Sermon on the Mount: Christian Counterculture" by John R Stott.
I looked at it online and still could not get a clear idea of what its all about.
I realize its a study on the sermon on the Mt. but what is the Counterculture part all about?
I am not familiar with John Stott. It looks like he's written lots of books and they all sound good...
Thanks for any additional info you or anyone else can provide.
Thanks
This is my last "Alien" article for awhile. But Jim C- Your our man.
See what you can find on this:
The Omega Secret
Ok, and to think this all started w/Todd Bentley & the Florida Revival. I then asked for a "revelation" -was granted one-now all this. I never saw this information on rapture alert before.
Rapture Alert Article
Click on the links in the article too. Maybe you want to forward this to some friends "Just in Case."
I'm really missing Harold & Grumpy/ATTY.
They would love these articles you posted Lisa.
Who knew there was a UFODigest site?
Going to read all the new comments...
Lisa, shalom! You wrote:
This is my last "Alien" article for awhile. But Jim C- Your our man. See what you can find on this:
I'll start looking, but it will be some time. Our library is having a grand re-opening today and I definitely have to put in an appearance. IN addition, I have to talk to my youngest daughter about her building a nuclear reactor in the back yard. Turns out it may not be a joke after all.
Seriously, though, I would like to ask your prayers for my middle daughter, Merci. She has some reports due by Tuesday if she's going to pass one of her classes, and she's feeling VERY overwhelmed right now. I was supposed to take her and her sister for the weekend, but when I heard how much work they had to do before the end of the school year, I told their mom that I just could not in good conscience take them. There's no way I could make sure they would be doing the work they needed to do, and I know they would just be goofing off down here. (That's the main reason for being here.) Anyway, please say a prayer for Merci that the Lord support her, ease her anxiety, and help her get the work done.
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
Donna
I'll admit it's been several years since I read the book but as I recall the book was about actually putting the sermon on the mount into practice in our daily lives and how our culture as Christians should look as opposed to the culture of the world around us-it should be radically different.
I shall see if I can find a synopsis somewhere.
As I said, this was written either in the late 70's or early 80's well before the emergent church philosophy came into being.
a review of the book can be seen Here
it has apparently been republished under a different name
it is now the Sermon on the Mount in the bible speaks series. one can find it new at Christianbooks.com or there are several places where it can be bought used.
I found a book by Stott on the Baptism of the Spirit and Fullness from christianbooks.com that I think I'm going to purchase. I think I will purchase a newer copy of the book since mine might be slightly different since it is older?
Jim, I'll be praying for your daughter Merci....JIb thanks for the link, I will check it all out.
well I got onto Christianbook.com and spent waaaaay to much money. Most of it was on my son-found several books of a veggie tales series that he likes on sale (bday or Christmas) and several books for about $1 on not whining,being a bad sport, paying attention etc.
I found an entire bible (in 4 volumes) with the complete greek, hebrew and english text with a literal translation of the greek and hebrew into english on sale also. didn't buy that one but it was reallly tempting. maybe I'll print it off for hubby to buy for bday!
the interlinear bible can be seen Here
it is even cross reference to Strong's concordance!
Jim - am praying for Merci.
Jib - my book is due to arrive June 8th.
All - check out this website:
You've been left behind
You've Been Left Behind
"You've Been Left Behind gives you one last opportunity to reach your lost family and friends For Christ. Imagine being in the presence of the Lord and hearing all of heaven rejoice over the salvation of your loved ones. It is our prayer that this site makes it happen.
Our purpose is to get one last message to the lost, at a time, when they might just be willing to hear it for the first and last time."
I haven't gone through the whole site, but it seems like a good idea?
I won't be able to start anything I don't think until about the 16th or so of June. Should give everyone who wants to join in time to get.
Jim
if you are interested in joining in I have a history assignment for you :-) could you give us a concise synopsis of Jewish and Roman culture at the time of the sermon on the mount?
btw for those concerned about denominational issues with the proposed book the group that I originally studied this with was comprised of a broad section of Christians-charismatic, catholic, plymouth brethren, baptist, united church of Christ etc.
Mac,
It's that spiritual deadness that puts me in the predestination/election camp. Deadness is unable to respond to anything. I see our choice coming into play after the Holy Spirit breathes spiritual life into us. Now we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
I don't know if you have to sign up to see this video but it was really good re: Laminin.
Preacher Laminin Video
Overcomer,
"after the Holy Spirit breathes spiritual life into us."
Huh? When is this suppose to happen for you?
I've already been baptized in the power of the Holy Spirit as probably most people on this blog are.
It's the workings of the Holy Spirit within me which keeps my eyes and motivations set upon the Lord. Not by my own fallen sinful state. This inturn creates a fear & desire to serve the Lord which naturally leads to good works.
So I guess I don't understand what this "spiritual deadness" refers to.
I'm not spiritually dead but made alive through the power of the Holy Spirit in my faith in Jesus Christ.
Hallelujah, Praise be to God!
Lisa
I bought an illustrated study Bible but I found something interesting in the wording of Colossians 2:18 & 19. It caught my eye because the wording is different than my usual NKJV.
"Let no one disqualify you, insisting on ascetic practices and the worship of angels, claiming access to a visionary realm and inflated without cause by his fleshly mind. (Does New Age & Todd Bentley come to mind?)
He doesn't hold on to the head,from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and tendons, developes with growth from God."
Not only that but Paul written it to Laodicea at the time.
Col 2:2-3 " For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you, for those in Laodicea, and for all who have not seen me in person. I want their hearts to be encouraged and joined together in love, so that they may have all the riches of assured understanding, and have the knowledge of God's mystery in Christ. In Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden.
Then in Revelation the Church of Laodiceans (people's opinions) would be a reference to New Age thinking today.
Do you think this is a mere coincidence or is this a "revelation" for us today?
Remember "In Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden"
And these things are revealed to his Church as needed.
Lisa
Lisa,
I was referring to the state that we are in before we are made alive (Eph. 2:5) in Christ. Paul says in Eph. 2:1: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."
Paul says in verse eight that even our faith is a gift. But once we've been made alive then we've got work to do!
Verse ten: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Kathy
Kathy, it's too early in the morning for me to crank my brain up re the predestination and election ideas. At some point, even though we are spiritually dead, we have an opportunity to choose Him. Dave Hunt addresses this in his book "What Love Is This?" He got a lot of flak from the Calvinists in it's first printing and he even had to self publish the second time around as no publisher wanted to produce it. Well worth taking a look at.
The Bible does seem to teach that He leads us to Him so that we will choose Him.
The Bible seems to teach that it is much more about Him than it is about us...whether it's salvation, justification or sanctification.
He is the Potter and we are the clay.
We are to trust Him, and walk by faith, not by sight.
Alesia, Shalom! You wrote:
Who knew there was a UFODigest site?
(raises hand slowly, then pulls it down quickly and slouches in his chair...)
<><
i found my book-the main thrust of the book on the Sermon on the Mount is best described by the author in the preface
"For Jesus did not give us an academic treatise calculated merely to stimulate the mind. I believe he meant his Sermon on the Mount to be obeyed. Indeed, if the church realistically accepted his standards and values as here set forth, and lived by them, it would be the alternative society he always intended it to be, and would offer the world an authentic Christian counter-culture."
Jim
LOL I knew you would know that. While I didn't precisely know about it I am unsurprised about it's existence.
Jim, too, too funny!
Yes Jim, that was funny!
Paul seems not to have had a choice in the matter when you read about his conversion experience in Acts 9. But once he was made alive he sure ran with it, didn't he, being an excellent example to all of us?!
We are starting to go through the Psalms in ladies Bible study at my church. A friend sent me John Piper's remarks regarding the Psalms. I am really looking forward to this study.
Here are a few things that John Piper had to say about the Psalms.
"More explicitly than all the other books in the Bible, the Psalms are designed to awaken and shape our emotions in line with the instruction they give. What happens when you read and sing the Psalms the way they are intended to be read and sung is that your emotions and your mind are shaped by these psalms."
"The Psalms are inspired by God. They are not merely the word of man but also the word of God. What that means is that God guided what was written and arranged so that the Psalms teach the truth and, when properly understood, they give the right direction to the emotions."
"We learned that in the new birth the Holy Spirit raises the spiritually dead by giving them a new mind and a new heart that believe the gospel and love God and want to be conformed to Christ. And yet born again people are not perfected. They are truly new, truly alive, truly spiritual, but in many ways unformed and immature—just like newborns in our families."
"So the question for the first Christians—and for us—was this: How does the new mind and the new heart, with all of their imperfect thinking and feeling, pursue the fullness of right-thinking and the fullness of holy affections. One of the main answers of the early church was to immerse themselves in the Psalms. The Psalms is the most often-quoted Old Testament book in the New Testament. It was the songbook and the poetry book and the meditation book of the church. Alongside the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, Psalms was the book that shaped the thinking and the feeling of the believers more than any other."
Okay.
That was me talking about our spirits being dead before being made alive in Christ.
I was asking, are they really dead dead? I just read somewhere that our "spirits" are not dead per se. Just not "alive" to Christ.
not sure how to really explain it.
HEY! I am in Augusta Georgia and just found out from the History Channel that we have a very dangerous live deadly nuclear bomb right off the coast of Savannah that was drop off by our own there during one of the wars. They won't try to deactivate it because it might go off. Scary stuff. Who knows what else the government is covering up!
In His Love and looking up!
Debbie
On the spiritual dead thing.
If a person is spiritually "dead" before he accepts Christ...wait. If a spiritually dead person dies...What happens to his spirit? When you die what happens to your soul and spirit, where you are saved or not.
Now I know as a saved person, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Is that soul and spirit? Or just spirit? If just spirit, what happens with our soul when we die? I know what happens with the body.
Okay, now back to the lost person. What about them? What state is their "spirit" in? Where does it or the soul go immeadiately after death?
Does anyone understand what I am trying to say?
In His Love and looking up!
Debbie
Debbie:
When Adam died spiritually I don't think he "half-way" died. =)
Okay.
That was me talking about our spirits being dead before being made alive in Christ.
I was asking, are they really dead dead? I just read somewhere that our "spirits" are not dead per se. Just not "alive" to Christ.
not sure how to really explain it.
HEY! I am in Augusta Georgia and just found out from the History Channel that we have a very dangerous live deadly nuclear bomb right off the coast of Savannah that was drop off by our own there during one of the wars. They won't try to deactivate it because it might go off. Scary stuff. Who knows what else the government is covering up!
In His Love and looking up!
Debbie
Debbie,
Your question drew my mind to Luke 16 regarding the parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus. The rich man "saw" Abraham afar off. He asked Abraham to have mercy on him and send him Lazarus that he might dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue for he was tormented in flame. I don't know if the rich guy actually had a body but to say the wicked cease to be conscious when they die would contradict what we see going on here.
My MacArthur Bible Study notes says "Christ pictured Hades as a place where the unspeakable torment of hell had already begun. Among the miseries featured here are unquenchable flame, an accusing conscience fed by undying memories of lost opportunity, and permanent, irreversible separation from God and everything good."
The point is that the unsaved exist after physical death as well. Whether it is just in spirit/soul form, I'm unsure, but they do live on forever too.
Overcomer,
I guess what I am asking or trying to figure out is this. If someone is lost and dies and their spirit is dead, what ends up in hell? Their body and soul? What about their (dead?)spirit?
Do you see what I am trying to get at or ask?
Thanks
In His Love and Looking up!
Debbie
debbie;
Here is an answer about spiritual death from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/
spiritual-death.html
Hope this helps. There are other threads you can follow for answers.
Question: "What is spiritual death?"
Answer: Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God.
In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.
When Jesus was hanging on the cross, He paid the price for us by dying on our behalf. Even though He is God, He still had to suffer to agony of a temporary separation from the Father due to the sin of world He was carrying on the cross. After three hours of supernatural darkness, He cries, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:33-34). This spiritual separation from the Father was the result of the Son’s taking our sins upon Himself. That’s the impact of sin. Sin is the exact opposite of God and God had to turn away from His own Son at that point in time.
A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.) The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God.
When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. “And you hath he quickened [made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ” (Ephesians 2:5). “And you, being dead in your sins . . . hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (Colossians 2:13).
To illustrate, think of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ, “the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25). At Christ’s call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us” (Titus 3:5).
The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God. Only those who have never experienced new life in Christ will partake of the second death (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8).
God Bless!
lisa;
Good article on "The Upcoming Great Deception", it does tie together all those loose ends about aliens and deception. One thing we must remember though, is I don't think anyone knows exactly how it all will play out, there is certainly more to it than just the "aliens". We are seeing this "space alien" idea becoming more prominent in the news every day. It certainly makes me wonder what is up with that!
Maranatha!
Debbie,
You’ve got me digging now. I first looked in my Strong’s concordance for verses using spirit and soul together. I came across 1 Th. 5:23 where Paul says “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Verse 24, “He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.” (A great promise, yes?!)
Now, MacArthur says this in his notes on those verses: “Whole spirit, soul, and body. This comprehensive reference makes the term “completely” more emphatic. By using spirit and soul, Paul was not indicating that the immaterial part of man could be divided into two substances. The two words are used interchangeably throughout Scripture. There can be no division of these realities, but rather they are used as other texts use multiple terms for emphasis. Nor was Paul a believer in a 3-part human composition, but rather two parts: material and immaterial.”
I can give you the verses that MacArthur lists where spirit and soul are used interchangeably if you like. Just let me know.
We also know from Scripture that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected. The saved at the coming of Christ just as Paul said in the verse above. Here is MacArthur again in his notes on Rev. 20. The bodies of unbelievers of all ages will be resurrected at the Great White Throne judgment. (Rev. 20:12,13). Scripture teaches two kinds of resurrections: the “resurrection of life” (believers) and the “resurrection of condemnation” (unbelievers). Believers enter the kingdom in resurrection bodies along with the believers who survive D’s 70th Week. The second kind of resurrection will be the resurrection of the unconverted who will receive their final bodies suited for torment in hell.
So, believers who die before Christ’s coming are separated from their bodies but their souls are with the Lord. Unbelievers at death are also separated from their bodies and they of course go to hell. At Christ’s coming the dead in Christ will rise first and those who are alive and remain will in the twinkling of an eye put on incorruption. (1 Cor. 15:23,50-54)
Unbelievers are then raised after the millennial kingdom at the Great White Throne Judgment and then will face the second death, as gt noted. (Rev. 20:11-15)
That’s what I learned.
Kathy
Debbie,
Remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus?
They both were in Hades, a place designed by God to hold the spirits of the righteous and the unrighteous. Hades was partitioned, the righteous were on one side (called Abraham's bosum or Paradise); and the unrighteous were on the other side where torment was evident.
Upon Jesus' death he went to Hades and took the spirits of the righteous with Him to Heaven (including the thief who had believed before he died on the cross. The unrighteous are still in their partitioned portion of Hades where they will remain until the 2nd Ressurection which will bring all the unrighteous before the White Throne of Judgement at the end of the 1,000 year Kingdom. After they have been judged they will then be thrown into the Lake of Fire for eternity.
Since Jesus' resurrection, all believers spirits go straight to heaven, Abraham's bosom is empty.
sara
Good question Deb.
This is what I think you are asking (if I'm wrong, someone jump in, cause it's quite possible I am)
There's our body, spirit & soul.
Now, my thinking is, the spirit is the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us. So, if we are unbelievers, it's not. If we died unbelievers, it would be our body & soul that eventually (like Sara said) goes to hell - not the spirit.
Make sense?
Sara,
This is what MacArthur says in his notes in Luke 16:23 regarding Hades:
"In NT usage, 'Hades" always refers to the place of the wicked prior to final judgment in hell. The imagery Jesus used fit the erroneous common rabbinical idea that Sheol had two parts, one for the souls of the righteous and the other for the souls of the wicked. But there is no reason to suppose, as some do, that "Abraham's bosom" spoke of a temporary prison for souls of OT saints, who were brought to heaven only after He had actually atoned for their sins. Scripture consistently teaches that the spirits of the righteous dead go immediately into the presence of God. And the presence of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration belies the notion that they were confined in a compartment of Sheol until Christ finished His work."
The Moses/Elijah comment makes sense to me. Interesting.
Alesia,
I don't see Paul's mention of spirit in body, soul, and spirit in 1 Th. 5:23 as referring to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead and I would understand our spirit as the immaterial part of our being.
Thanks Kathy, for making me look it up! I went digging & this is what I found:
What is the difference between the soul and spirit of man?
Do we have two or three parts? Body, soul, and spirit?
(1 Thes. 5:23-28) Bible.org commentary
The spirit (pneuma) is the part that enables man to perceive the divine. Through this component he can know and communicate with God. This higher element, though damaged through the fall of Adam, is sufficiently intact to provide each individual a consciousness of God. The soul (psyche) is the sphere of man’s will and emotions. Here is his true center of personality. It gives him a self-consciousness that relates to the physical world through the body and to God through the spirit. This analysis of man had been Paul’s training in the OT and no impressive evidence has surfaced to eradicate such a picture here (Milligan, p. 78; Olshausen, p. 457). Yet, it must be confessed, much unresolved mystery remains regarding the interrelationships between man’s different parts, including the body. How one affects the other is fully understood only by him who is the Creator.
For such a composite creature Paul therefore prays, seeking an unblamable wholeness in the presence “of our Lord Jesus Christ” (23; cf. 2:19; 3:13).172
Regardless of one’s view of this passage, clearly, the emphasis is on the completeness of the sanctification that God is committed to promoting in the believer in all aspects of his being.
Bottom line from digging: Everyone typically scratches their heads over this verse!
to go along with the how weird is that-one of the papers around here recently published that the risk of dying from a rattlesnake bite has gone up. seems the snakes venom is becoming more potent and scientists don't know why.
however it makes sense to consider man as material and immaterial as opposed to 3 parts. i think
one recent development that has me scratching my head is the new teaching of some that we don't go to heaven when we die and that to teach such is erroneous doctrine. I truthfully don't know much about this new concept except that it can't possibly be scriptural as scripture does teach that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. not sure what they do with that verse. perhaps someone who has actually read their theory might be better able to comment.
Sheol / Hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “Paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a "great gulf fixed" (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to Heaven, He took the occupants of Paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of Sheol / Hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to Sheol / Hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.
sara
In Luke 16 we read the account of the rich man who died and went to Hades. There in Hades (i.e. his soul was in Hades and his body was buried in the ground) he was in torment. He realized also that the beggar that sat at his gate and ate the crumbs from his table was in Abraham’s bosom. He could reason and think. He desired water and someone to return back from the dead to warn his brothers of this place. There was full consciousness of being, thinking, feeling, and remembering.
The Death of Death
Alesia,
I almost fear to leave this comment, because I am not certain on part of this.
i.e., I believe that our soul and spirit is what leaves our body and goes directly to Jesus upon our physical death. I know many good theologians who think that soul and spirit are the same. I have always understood that our soul is our mind, our intellect, our personality, etc. And that the spirit (which emcompasses the soul) is what is regenerated, made alive by the Holy Spirit.
It is true that the Holy Spirit indwells each believer. But He is our teacher, helper, comforter, and He does not lose His identity as he lives inside of us.
I know that the soul/spirit thing is not easy to grasp. And theologians even in the same denominations do not always agree.
But, I do know that when we die, our old bodies are going to lie in that grave waiting to be resurrected, empty of our soul and spirit.
I remember teaching my 3 year old this when we had lost a loved one, to try to help her understand death. This loved one was a believer.
I took her out for a walk to see if I could help her understand, as we were walking we came across an empty snail shell. I stopped and picked it up and I asked her if she knew what it was. She said yes, it was a snail shell. So, I explained to her that the shell was the house that the snail had lived in. Then I went on to explain to her that our loved one had left the house that God had given him to live in, and that he was in heaven with Jesus, but his house was still here. I took her to the funeral, and she was just wonderful, comforting those who were crying, and explaining to them that he was in heaven with Jesus, and no longer in his house.
And from the parable in Luke we know that Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich Man, were spirits with their memories intact and able to converse. Whether they are one or both combined, I am not sure. I do know that the Bible speaks of Body, Soul, and Spirit. I think I will probably just have to wait until I see Jesus to understand completely.
sara
Now I think we are getting to the question I want to know.
Let's go to Lazarus and the Rich man.
Lazarus was born again, right. But the rich man wasn't.
Okay so they are in Shoel/Hades talking. I assume that Lazarus had a spirit that is alive to Christ and along with his soul, his spirit is now in Heaven.
But what about the rich man? What about his spirit? Is it dead?
I guess I could say we as Christians have 3 "working" parts, ie, body soul and spirit. The lost on the other hand have only two, the body and soul, and are only dragging a dead lifeless spirit around. How will this spirit behave in hell? Will it be unfeeling? Is it the soul and body that feels?
Is our spirit "active" or "alive" to darkness while we are lost and then when we accept Christ it becomes active or alive to light, Christ?
I think I am making it more confusing, the question I am trying to ask.
I have saved the links and will look at them later. Thanks everyone for your imput! It all matters!
In HIs Love and looking up!
Debbie
Is our spirit just alive until we accept Christ when it will be alive to Him?
Are the spirits of the lost actually DEAD or is it a term to signify that once we accept Christ it is then "alive" to Christ?
sigh...I don't think I am saying this right.
Debbie,
I think what is confusing you is that you are not thinking about "spiritually alive" and "spiritually dead."
God told Adam that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, that they would surely die. They did not die a physical death, but a spiritual death, combined with the curse of beginning to die physically.
So, all of Adam and Eve's descendants were born "spiritually dead," along with the dying process.
At that point, the only way they could be redeemed was to "place their trust in the redeemer" that God said He would provide. God initiated the sacrifical temporary covering of sin at that time too.
Abel was obeying God's instructions but Cain was not. And then as you read through the OT, God shows that many people were "trusting in the LORD's promise of a redeemer," Seth, Enoch, and Noah to name a few. Their faith was counted as righteousness, and their spirit was made alive when they placed their trust in God's promise. The Holy Spirit came "upon them," but they were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit as the Body of Christ is.
Every person since Adam and Eve was physically born with a "dead spirit" which had to be born again from above, just as we were. The only difference was they were believing God looking forward to a coming redeemer. We on the other hand, looking backwards, put our faith in the redeemer Jesus who did come 2,000 years ago. For all of us it is grace based on faith alone in the work of Jesus on the cross.
Everyone's spirit is "dead" until it is born-again from above. Those who are not born-again have a dead spirit. They are not able to communicate with God.
At the Great White Throne judgement, those who died in their sins will have been resurrected with eternal bodies that will be sent to the Lake of Fire for eternal punishment.
Hope this helps.
sara
Deb
what I think you're asking is how could the rich man be conscious etc in hades if his spirit were dead right?
People who are dead are unable to respond to those who are living in the physical realm. At a funeral they can't leap out of the casket and comfort those they have left with kind words, hugs or kisses. Nor can they be comforted with hugs, kisses, kind words by those who are living. Paul uses very stark imagery to show the state of our soul/spirit- Incapable of response of any kind to God just like the corpse at a funeral can't respond to love ones. I think when we are presented with the Gospel however at that moment in time God gives us the ability to respond and we decide yes or no. When we decide yes he restores our soul/spirit to the living state-capable of response to him. Just as when Christ raised Lazarus from the dead he restored Lazarus' body to its living state of responsiveness.
Not sure if that helps but life of the material component of mankind is separate from the life of his immaterial component(s) for a time. For the believer at the time of the Rapture they will be come one and the same and no dichotomy will exist-likely what Paul refers to when he talks about seeing through a glass darkly now but someday being seen as we see. Frucht says that the Old Testament saints and the saints who died during the Tribulation are not resurrected until the end of the Tribulation just before the Millennial Reign. (I always thought that the OT Saints were resurrected at the time of the Rapture but he says that the Rapture is just to get the Bride of Christ and that while saints they are not part of the Bride of Christ -they are actually part of Jehovah's wife-and therefore are not resurrected until just before the marriage feast at the beginning of the Millennium) The dead of all ages are resurrected just before the Great White throne judgment-they are fused if you will at that time and spend eternity in judgment. How heartbreaking is that going to be for God. We will be heartbroken at first because we will know some there but God will wipe away our tears-not our memory-but our grief for them. Who wipes away God's grief at the loss of any of his creation or does/will he accept that it is what it is and nothing could have changed that outcome?
something that startled me as a kid was when my dad noted to me that Adam and Eve were not physically eternal beings at the time they were cast out of the garden. God was quite merciful in casting them out of the garden before they could eat of the tree of life after they had sinned.
Joel has a new post up on the nuclear threat to america
Sara - Fear not!
I think this is a good discussion.
My first comment I admittedly stated I wasn't sure if I was right in what I was thinking. Which, really, is why I said it, I wanted feedback!
It DOES look like there is a human spirit, as well. BUT, everywhere I went looking for info., no one seems to have a good understanding of these spirit/soul references. My previous links give more detail into it.
Thanks!
Deb - Good questions!
I like when someone throws out a question like that. It gets us digging for answers & working through it together.
This is turning out to be a great discussion. I just peaked in to see what was added since last night.
Being spiritually dead means you cannot understand the truth about God, correct? Unbelievers walk according to the course of this world, according to the power of the prince of the power of the air. Look at the apostle Paul. Those who are not saved are said to be blinded by Satan. God needed to remove the blinders so Paul could understand the truth about God.
Those who are spiritually dead and are never made alive in Christ, will they understand the truth about God after their physical deaths? Now my mind is really going and I want to do some more digging, but, I need to get ready for church so I'll check back in later!
Popping in one more time before heading out for church...
I was thinking about my own question. My mind went to a discussion going on at my blog awhile back. I do believe there will be those who realize the truth about God after death. Hebrews 6 was brought up. A friend made this comment:
"When you study the whole letter (Hebrews) you find that it was written to a couple different mindsets in that church. There were the faithful believers who were facing persecution and struggling with the desire to fall back to the Old Covenant worship and adherence to the Law. The second group were those who had been associated with the church, had seen the hand of God changing lives - even saw miracles and participated in the fellowship but were ready to walk away from everything they saw because they couldn't fully surrender their lives to Christ. These are the apostates. If you study Hebrews 6, John MacArthur as well as other commentators, point out that the words used to describe the ones who are falling away are not the normal words to describe believers. For believers - sanctified, justified, saved. For this group - enlightened, tasted, partakers. These are words that can describe people who have been associated with the church and the work of God. Being near the light can be enlightening. We don't taste of the Holy Spirit - He dwells in us. Taste implies a sampling. So I think Hebrews six is describing someone who choses to walk away from God, knowing exactly what He offers but rejects it. If you read verses 7 and 8 it describes just that. The rain (God's goodness) falls on two soils but the one which produces fruit is blessed by God but the one which produces thorns is burned."
Kathy
the answer to that question is a resounding yes. I think there is scriptural support for unbelievers knowing the truth about God and Christ after death.
Going back to the rich man and Lazarus-when the rich man finds that Abraham will not allow the beggar Lazarus to come soothe his torment Luke 16 27-31 records his response-
"Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. This suggests to me that the guy knew he had missed the boat so to speak and that he very much wanted his family to avoid his own fate.
Romans 14:11 and Is 45:23 both talk about every knee bowing before Christ and taking an oath or confessing. To which one must ask confess what and that is found in Phillippians 2 9-11:
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
so yes I think unbelievers will know since they have to confess-that includes Satan and those who fell with him by the way-that Christ is Lord. and they will know for eternity. We torture ourselves in the here and now with the whole "what if" scenario so can you imagine undergoing eternal physical torture along with the eternal what if I'd just responded differently, believed differently thoughts running through your mind?
Kathy
good points
speaking of church I'd better go get ready myself. our new pastor starts today.
let's try this again-I used a colloquialism without thinking and it could be construed as offensive
would anyone else like to comment on this article.
The Healing Power of Music
I guess my problem with this article is that it is ascribing the healing power of music and prayer to out bodies being tuned to certain frequencies (ha now I sound like Lisa-LOL) and that is responsible for the healing not the One to whom one is praying or worshiping in song.
Jib,
I was going to add one final thought. There will definitely be those who after death will say, "I should have trusted Christ!"
Debbie,
There have been so many great answers, but I just want to say one more thing for emphasis.
Our spirit man, whether we are saved or remain unsaved, is eternal. The spirit never perishes.
Those who are cast into the Lake of Fire will suffer for eternity. They will have regrets, even those who during the tribulation realize that what all those old fogey born-again believers said was true, many will stubbornly shake their fists at God and cry out for the rocks to cover them from the wrath of God.
I think their understanding of what they missed will be their greatest agony for eternity.
sara
MMMMMmmm.
Let me put my question this way.
Does the lost person have a spirit?
Is this spirit dead?
What HAPPENS to this spirit at physical death?
Does this spirit become "alive" to the eternal torture that the soul and body experience in hell or is it still dead and does not experience hell?
Does only the soul and body experience hell?
I Know that our spirits are "dead" TO Christ "before" salvation. But is it dead as in being totally, overall, completely unresponsive to ANYTHING? Is it "alive" to Satan?
Please tell me someone understands what I am trying to say.
In His Love and looking up!
Debbie
Sara!!!!
There you said it!
The spirit never PERISHES!!!
So it is never DEAD!
Only, if you could say in a manner of speaking, that it isn't "attuned" or "active" to Jesus until after the new birth.
It is never Dead actually, just not awakened to Jesus. ALIVE to Jesus!
It drives me crazy when I can't wrap my mind around something like this. Kinda like the Trinity. It is that kinda mystery!
In His love and looking up!
Debbie
Jib and everyone,
I just want to let you know how honored I am to be known for "vibrations", "Aliens" and all the weird things of the world.
The real ironic part is that previously I've tried to stay away from those things and much as possible.
I just told my mom about this "Alien/demon" theory and her comment was "That sure doesn't sound like you." (But she didn't discount the idea.)
Last month I had not even the slightest inclination that any of this type of "Alien" thing would be involved in the Tribulation. I had come to the "New Age" conclusion as you know but this? Hah!
It really does seem "far out." But now that I think about it. Maybe not.
I've always believed there were demonic alien creatures so why wouldn't I have thought to connect them w/end time events? Probably because the "new age" mindset had to connect in first before this could be added.
This is so much bigger and complex than any of us have the ability to comprehend-(Unless the Holy Spirit wills it.) The EU,Islam,etc...
Through the "channelers" source the spirits quoted: "Your govts. and many other govts. of the other countries have been interacting w/what you call extra-terriestals for many years."
I took this a step further last night and looked up Area 51. Well, as many have suspected-looks like they're in on it.
So then I was thinking ( & me thinking can be dangerous) about that article Harold? or someone posted about the concentration camps & reflectors on your mailboxes or homes to identify you as a "rebel" to society.
If this is indeed the case-then that "consentration camp" certainly ties in w/this theory.
(I'll post some Area 51 links.)
But in closing - just being aware to some of these things makes it easier to spot ie:the music link Jib posted.
New Osama Video to Europe
New Osama Video US
Did you know that Bhutto had said in an interview that Osama Bin Ladan was killed in 2001?
Jib, Shalom! In your message of May 31, 2008 10:26 AM you invited me to join something. I've reviewed your messages but can't figure out what you're inviting me to join. Could you explain it to me? And "...a concise synopsis of Jewish and Roman culture at the time of the Sermon on the Mount?" ???!!! That sounds like an advanced philosophy final exam question: "Define and analyze the Theosophical Society's formation and growth in America. Give concrete examples of its European influences and the role it played in the 1960 Presidential elections. Use the back of the page if necessary."
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