42:1 Then Job answered the LORD and said,
42:2 "I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
42:3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
42:4 'Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.'
42:5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;
42:6 Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes."
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150 comments:
Thank you Mr Hyde!
Yes, Happy Mother's Day to all the mommies!
Pentecost and the Rapture of the Church
Thank you so much Mac and Alesia for taking such good care of us in the cave!
Mac, what a great post from Job! Thank you.
I love the article from Jack Kelley! Thank God for him! What a great teacher. I just printed it out so I can reread it to understand it all better.
I do wonder what he is basing his statement on when he says that children and those who are mentally challenged will be saved. I was not aware that there was scriptural backing for these hopes?
It should be noted that in the article it says that this weekend is the celebration of Pentecost...when he suggests the possibility of the rapture taking place....perhaps he wrote this in the past...as Pentecost falls on June 8 this year.
Nate, I totally agree with where you and others are coming from with your caution re: healings and other signs and wonders. I too believe we all must proceed with caution, particularly during what appears to be the end times.
Please know that you all and your loved ones will be in my thoughts and prayers today and all days.
Happy Mother's Day!
FYI
With Alesia & Mac's approval I've invited another guest to the cave.
She's a Christian I met a couple of weeks ago and she's from Michigan. Also, particularly interested in earthquakes and end time events.
Hopefully, she'll join us.
Lisa
Mac,
Thanks for that update on GracethruFaith. I really like his teachings as he seems to really think things through.
I found: "The first phrase is "full number". It was a nautical term .."
really interesting as I was not aware of that. (In fact I would have never even thought to check on it.)
Lisa
Morning, Donna and Happy Mother's Day, moms!
(I was up all night with a fevered little one and started the morning with a headache, so I'm just having a plain old "Mothers' Day" ;-) LOL!
Donna, I have an article somewhere that I have about the Scriptural backing for children/mentally incapacitated going to Heaven. I'll try to dig it out and post it at my blog soon. That used to be a topic that caused me great turmoil until I read that article.
Great link to Jack Kelley...I love doing the word studies and often wonder how much we're missing because we don't know all the idioms/connotations, etc.
Well, off to start the day. Will check in later...
Blessings,
Jen
I just checked the dates of Pentecost and came up with these dates for 2008:
Jewish June 8, 2008
Western Protestant+Catholic May 11
Eastern Orthodox June 15
Nothing like a bit of confusion!
Hi Jen,
Give your adorable little children and hug and kiss from us!
I hope you all will feel better!
Let me know when and if you get to posting the article and thank you ahead of time.
I agree about the probability of missing so much due to our not knowing the idioms and connotations.
Talk with you all later!
Ok, one last thing before I leave the keyboard. My best friend (mom of 3 boys, God bless her) just sent this YouTube video to me...had to share it here....now I'm smiling and ready to go!
The Mom Song
Blessings,
Jen
happy mother's day to all the moms!
Hi there, Just wanted to pass this along. As I was surfing around last night I thought to check out part of a Utube-clip from that Toronto Blessing pastor. I've been reading quite a bit but did not actually watch any video. Since John's pastor thought it was acceptable I figured well maybe this particular clip I could watch. It was not specifically the popular one posted.
Within 2 seconds I had to turn it off. The Holy Spirit was giving me a personal warning. Then last night before I went to bed I felt a need to pray for protection. There was some wierd things going on in my mind but after the prayer they ceased and I fell asleep.I think I only had this feeling once before so it's not my usual routine.
(1) WARNING About VIDEOS
-by Josef Urban.
I just want to share a warning with you all about watching the
videos of this thing on the internet and of watching the videos of
those things related to it. Also of listening to the worship music.
Even of videos and music and such from people associated with
this that are of the same spirit.
I know a brother who was having serious spiritual attacks the day
after he watched a video of the revival and spoke against this, and
they persisted, until he prayed and broke the demonic curses and
they left instantly.
Also, last night a dark presence came upon my house after
watching a video. As soon as we prayed, it went away. And then I
knew there was truly something there.
A brother here also had the same thing happen to him last night
after watching these videos. He said a dark presence and a wicked
spirit entered his house and he and his wife both discerned it and
commanded it out and it left and that he too has been warned not
to watch these things any more.
There is something really powerful at work here and it's something
that the Word of Faith preachers haven't even fully tapped into.
Saints, be careful of these videos. I have personally had my severe
warning from the Lord not to watch them anymore, and these other
two brothers have also. There is more than just words in conflict
here, this is a conflict of spirits. So be warned, and be covered
with the blood of Jesus! If you must watch them for the purpose of
discernment, and for speaking against it specifically as is
profitable for the souls of men, then be covering yourself in prayer
for protection as you do, and when you're done, break all curses
over you and command any evil spirit to depart from your midst!
For those of you who have been watching it, and have embraced it
and are accepting everything that comes from this move and from
Todd Bentley, I believe you are potentially in serious trouble and
you really need to seek the Lord to open your eyes and renounce
everything that is not directly from the Spirit of God.
Matt replies:
Just chiming in to say I agree with you wholeheartedly. I've only
watched ~6 minutes of one video and had to turn it off. I felt the
Holy Spirit warn me not to ever watch again, His words to me
were "don't allow this into your home." After some prayer I know
this is truly a Word from the Lord.
(2) DAVID WILKERSON Gets FEW INVITATIONS?
Yulandop writes:
I called David Wilkerson's ministry and I asked why Pastor David
doesn't minister within the states very often. She stated that he
does not get many invitations to minister within the states.
'Apple' replies:
I am saddened to hear that David Wilkerson is not invited to preach
in the US so much anymore. This is a mighty man of God with
years of good fruit to vouch for his ministry and character... he has
almost been a lone voice calling America to repentance.
Andrew Strom comments:
I almost can't believe what I'm reading. If it is true, that is one of
the most terrible things I have ever read. David Wilkerson to me
should be one of the most in-demand preachers in America.
I believe he is one of the last prophets of real stature that the
USA has - and really a 'giant' you could say. Can this be possible -
that he gets few invitations?
If you have any information on this, please let me know.
How awful! God help America.
(Who is David Wilkerson? I've heard about him but don't know much.)
Nate,
My understanding is that a "creative miracle" involves the creation/recreation of missing body parts.
Here are two examples that I know of.
The first involves a young newly married woman (who attended the same Bible School I attended some 8-9 years ago), who was involved in a very serious car accident shortly after she was married (and just after she started Bible School). As a result, she had her entire womb removed.
About a year later, she came to one of the Bible School teachers, also a woman, who has a great deal of understanding concerning the manifestations of Holy Spirit (this was her subject, which she taught and demonstrated(!!!) in Bible School).
The young woman had a specific request, that she might have a child. Now that's what I call faith in action!
There was a time of ministry, with laying on of hands, and a prophetic word was given that said that by the same time the following year, she would have a baby!!
Sure enough, when she attended the graduation ceremony the following year, she had a new-born baby with her. In fact, she now has 4 children!!!
It seems that God REALLY did a creative miracle and completely replaced her womb.
The second happened last year, during a crusade by our pastors' son-in-law. He is a healing evangelist, who has seen some amazing miracles. This one, according to him, even surprised him. A man came up for prayer who was missing an eye (he had been born with only one eye, the other socket was empty). He had hands laid on him, and Pastor Jon commanded his sight to be restored in Jesus' Name. Jon says that he actually saw the eyeball grow back into the eye socket!! They checked, and the new eye functioned normally!! Wow!!
John
If you are interested in Evangelical Resources this looks pretty good. I viewed "Hell's Best Kept Secrete" which seems like an effective method to reach people. There are also tracs on Haloween,America,etc...
Ray Comfort Evangelism
I wish I had some tracs yesterday. I was at the very large Iroquois Steeplechase event and have never seen so many young people in my life tailgating,partying, and getting completely loaded. They didn't care one iota for the horse race. It was all a giant party.
(Not disimular to the Del Mar Race Track but this was "southern style". People all dressed well but unlike CA-this was a free for all in terms of Alcohol & Driving.)
I had this all access pass and could go anywhere. So I saw what the "rich & elite" were up to as well.It was unlimited alcohol in those circles.And believe me-they know how to pour it! (Unlike California where they measure it to the line of the shot glass)
They had taxis available for those who shouldn't drive as long as they picked their cars up by noon Sunday.
As we left I walked through the "young party crowd" and looked into the eyes of these beautiful young girls. It was just heartbreaking.(I had vivid flashbacks of my youth) All I could think of during this giant party was how this represented the old "Roman" empire.
Most left piled high into flatbed trucks w/their coolers. (open air-no seatbelts)Many of them drunk.
Judgement is knocking on our door. Even in this so called "Bible belt."
Lisa
Grany knows David Wilkerson personally. He has a ministry in Manhattan, and wrote a book that became very popular years ago, "The Cross and the Switchblade", that dealt with David's assistance in converting gangs to Jesus...one in particular who became a nationally recognized speaker, NIki Cruz, who I had the honor of listening to years ago.
A movie with the same title was also produced.
click here for his website or go to www.worldchallenge.org in case that doesn't come thru.
Hi, I'm Lisa's new friend from Michigan.
I appreciate you letting me join you and share Christian fellowship.
Lisa and I found so many things we have in common...we even check the same earthquake watch site!
I'm looking forward to "meeting" you all.
Vicki
Welcome Vicki,
I hope that you will enjoy all the followship and learning the cave has to offer..
Maranatha,
Mike
ok I meant fellowship - preview preview
nate;
"Has anyone heard of any follow up on these healings?"
I found this about Todd and the so called revival. Use discernment. There is some info in this post about the "healings". Also quite long.
Todd Bentley MOST “CONTAGIOUS” ANOINTING - Florida - WARNING
Todd Bentley has declared that his Florida anointing is the most “contagious” that he has ever imparted to people. (In other words, the most easily transferable). And indeed this seems to be the case. It is spreading rapidly throughout the world.
But what exactly is this anointing? One observer of the Florida revival notes: “Todd Bentley constantly manifests his “anointing” by shaking his head back and forth, and by his body physically shaking. These manifestations also happen frequently in those who he imparts to. He will even wave his arms over the audience, shouting, “Fire! Fire! Fire!” and then people in the audience will start manifesting. Some appear to be convulsing, and some even as if they are being thrashed by a spirit.”
In a CBN News interview, Todd stated: “Our focus here in Florida every night is I lay hands on every single person who comes - whether it’s 5,000, 10,000 - And I’m praying every night, ‘God, give it away, give it away, give it away.’ And that’s the focus here: Impartation.”
And indeed there are more and more reports of this anointing being transmitted from Florida to other states and nations across the globe.
As we have already seen, a report from England tells of a preacher who brought Todd’s anointing back from Florida and now it is manifesting in his UK meetings: “Fire, a burning sensation, was felt all over people’s bodies… There were outbursts of joy, drunkenness and spontaneous healings throughout the meeting.”
A man from Clearwater, Florida says that a number of people from his fellowship have attended the revival and then brought the ‘anointing’ back with them. Here is what he personally saw:
“These are the effects that I have witnessed on people who have attended this movement and either have had hands laid on them or claim to have been imparted with “the spirit”:
-They come back with this kind of childlike drunken stupor.
-Descriptions of a burning sensation either in their veins, heads or stomachs.
-Descriptions of being washed back and forth like the waves in the ocean;
-Dancing about like drunk…
-Inappropriate yelling and screaming like they’re at a football game;
-Young men whistling over and over and holding their heads and claiming that they “feel the Holy Spirit about to split them in two”;
-One young man’s back two teeth turned completely to some metallic finish.
-People with their eyes rolled in the back of their heads and weaving around like they’re lost.
-Women just gyrating and pulsating like they’re being ravaged from behind from some unseen force.
-Drunken uncontrollable laughter in the middle of a solemn prayer time…
-People being “slain in the spirit”… just falling down and being unable to move (like something’s holding them down)…”
Another eyewitness from the USA writes:
“A friend of mine invited me to a church where the ministry team brought back a “Fire” from the Lakeland revival… The pastor’s wife was moderating, but she could not complete her sentences because she was ‘drunk in the Spirit.’ She imitated the type of sounds I read in your blog. I saw people breaking out into
uncontrollable laughter. I came with my Bible to receive a word… There was no teaching or preaching. Just testimonies. They talked about their experience in Lakeland… Where was the word? I did not find any. I also heard a sound BAM and then I saw someone being slain in the spirit.”
A Spirit-filled pastor that I know from the UK who has been following Todd Bentley’s ministry closely for some years wrote to me about what he himself has observed since the year 2000:
“My difficulty with Todd Bentley’s ministry is not whether he has recently covered himself with tattoos or pierced himself silly, but the SOURCE of his power. He keeps changing his position on this. Sometimes he says it’s the Holy Spirit and a lot of the time it’s his angels…
“Many have said that they believe that Florida is a ‘mixture’. Personally, I do not believe ‘mixture’ is involved. I believe these deceiving spirits have hi-jacked Todd’s ministry… Either the healings are of God or they are not. Which is it?
“People can be healed in spiritualist churches. I have witnessed, close-up, first hand, people being instantly healed by mediums and faith healers. I have also seen people healed by the power of the Holy Spirit. To begin with there is no discernible difference. However the counterfeit healings soon begin to either go wrong or something far worse comes upon the person. “When God heals someone - He adds ‘no sorrow.’
“I know Todd started off OK - I was there in his early meetings… In September 2000 I stood in front of Todd and gave him the warning that God gave me for him. “Beware, the leaven of the Pharisees, lest an angelic leaven enters your ministry.”
“One month later, according to Todd’s own account, at a meeting in Grants Pass Oregon, Cal Pierce walked in with Branham’s ‘Healing Revival’ angel in tow, Todd saw and accepted this spirit without reservation. His ‘angels’ have been with him ever since.
“I have written to Todd on numerous occasions and reminded him of God’s warning, alas to no avail.
“When Todd Bentley conducted a healing meeting in a large charismatic church here in England in 2005, he laid hands on many people who were apparently healed. I know of at least one instance where a pastor’s wife with cancer was prayed for by Todd. Soon afterwards she heard voices in her head telling her to ‘drown herself just like her father did’. The poor woman ended up in a mental hospital, I believe she still has the cancer.
“No-one is following up or keeping records of what happens to people who have hands laid on them by Todd or others like him.
“I have kept records as far as I can, concerning this particular church. Over a relatively short period, there has been a dramatic increase in premature deaths, cancers, marriage break-ups, sickness and disease amongst the congregation where the leadership have allowed this type of ministry into their church. Many people left the church in fear.
“These are the consequences of following this type of ‘ministry’ which no-one is either aware of, or wants to address. I know, I have visited the people in hospital and attended one of the funerals…”
[END QUOTE]
Meanwhile we find a number of prominent leaders beginning to declare that this will be one of the greatest revival movements in history. Some even see it as the beginning of a “new awakening”.
Bob Jones declared that “This move will be a global move, traveling with signs and wonders all over the world! The third wave is here!”
As this ‘anointing’ spreads worldwide, I believe there are some serious questions that we need to ask ourselves:
Isn’t it possible, with all the dubious ‘anointings’ and angels and manifestations associated with Bentley’s ministry, that what we are really seeing is a giant ‘counterfeit’ revival? Isn’t it possible that if it continues to grow at the present rate, that it may literally become one of the great “delusions” of the Last Days - a great deception that has the power to actually deceive, if possible, the very elect?
These are very serious questions - but I believe they must be asked - because this ‘anointing’ is already beginning to circle the globe.
If you have been to a meeting where someone has brought the “fire” back from Florida, please write and tell me what you saw. I am collecting accounts from people about this.
God bless you all.
Andrew Strom.
God Bless!
Welcome Vicki! Hope you enjoy the fellowship.
Donna, I had similar thoughts about what Jack Kelley said re the children etc. There is no direct sriptural support for it and he probably arrives to that belief using deduction. I'm not convinced.
I was over at Constance Cumbey's blog and someone provided these interesting links. Who are the Jerusalem Peace Academy? Has anyone here heard of them before?
Jerusalem Academy
There is a PDF file on their site A Proposal for Israel, Palestine and
Jerusalem
Go to page 123:
I. 7. 2 Jerusalem – the City of God (a Peace Proposal)
Look at the Fifth proposal…
Fifth, the religious leaders will come to an agreement about rebuilding Solomon’s Temple, which will be located on or near its original site, which is not the site of the Dome of the Rock. Then each of the religions will have a beautiful building on its ancient holy site. Moreover, Solomon’s Temple will symbolize the convergence of the three religions to spread God’s truth around the world.
That's quite a dream Nate and it seems many people are very uncomfortable about this guy and the videos are having a very strong negative effect on folks. I have not watched any of them and do not plan to!
Please let us continue to lift each other up in prayer.
Mac, I keep thinking about your mom and your brother and that whole situation you wrote about recently. Very powerful stuff.
You will all be in my thoughts and prayers!
Welcome Vicki!
Nate that doesn't suprise me about your dream after what I went through to see one for 2 seconds.
Jen also had a reaction.
That sounds like a warning to me.
Someone recently said, I forgot who it was-that pretty soon we would not even be able to watch TV.
Well that remark just hit me today. I thought at the time-well it's bad but we can always change the channel and possibly find something worthwhile.
What if this type of infestation is TV bound? Can't you see this on some type of reality show? I think they have almost run out of new ideas for those things.
Don't they already have "Medium" and "Ghost Hunters" now?
When I visited my mom she had a movie called "Tribulation" by the producers of Left Behind-the movie.
(I didn't see that one) It was end times related so I thought to bring it home and watch it.
I thought it was going to be corny but it turned out pretty good. The part that got me was that the Anti-Christ had this helmet type device that his pawns would try to get you to wear. You would be transported mentally to him where he would convince you to recieve "the mark." They were hunting down the Christians at the time-couldn't buy or sell, etc..
I thought sure-yeah right-a helmet-how Hollywood!
Well what if it's your TV or any method of Communication?
I wouldn't really have gone off the deep end this far if I had not been affected by that Tod Bentley senario.
This is so unreal I can't even believe I'm saying this.
I never imagined evil influence could come through the computer screen!!!
(Vikki-glad you can join us! You'll have to excuse me-I'm usually the one to go off on these mental excursions.)
Lisa
Hey Mac, love the pentacost link. Thanks! My wife and I were just sitting here discussing our roles in the Church. One interesting thing is that many Bible-believing and committed Christians are still not as focused on current events and what all of us on this site perceive as the imminence of our Lord's coming. My care group we met with tonight are always a little surprised when I bring up events in the middle east. Are we (all of us on here on this website) meant to be watchmen on the wall? And what is the watchman's job?
welcome vicki
To all
I lent one of my copies of Epicenter (I have 3 don't ask) to one of my Jewish colleagues who is fascinated by the book. He said apart from the whole prophecy stuff the other info is absolutely dead on for accuracy. He has decided he now needs to go read the book of Ezekiel. Joel will be at a meeting in Tucson so may be I'll mention that to him. I also have a dvd of Joel's interview with Glenn Beck that we made that I will be giving him. Pray for Paul and his family.
I finally discovered where my sister in laws brother was sent with the national guard-Kuwait which would be ok except that he drives trucks for transportation of others into the war zone. to my knowledge Dustin is not a Christian. my sister in law has had significant losses over the last 2 years-her mom and step dad just months from each other and this is her favorite nephew.
Scott
I think we are and I have been praying about that. I'm starting small.
I know my family (not my hubby) thinks I'm a little over the top with this stuff and hubbies family by and large raised in amillennial tradition. oh well.
Michigander here...
For some reason I can't seem to sign on, so will have to post this as Anonymous.
Thank you for the welcomes!
If I may just make a few comments...
I used to watch Benny Hinn and others like him on TV...not because I believed them, but just to see what was going on "out there". After a while I realized (with the Holy Spirit's prompting, I'm sure) that I was in danger of deception and this was not the best use of my time. Now I steer clear of such false shepherds.
As you know, everything we hear from the pulpit must be compared to Scripture. Even from those we think we can trust!
Acts 17:11 - "These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so."
And we must be careful we don't tred on Satan's ground. God's holy angels will not accompany us there. We must be careful what we watch, read, and let come into our minds.
Philippians 4:8--"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
If someone we care about is in danger of deception by a false shepherd, we must point him to the Bible and use that as his proof. Feelings just don't cut it!
Vicki
on the last post I think someone posted the different dates for pentecost-I'd go with the Jewish date as being the most accurate since it is first and foremost a Jewish feast. There is reasonable evidence to support that the date for Easter was changed to de-emphasize it's Jewish roots and of course the western traditions differ from Eastern orthodox.
Mac
interesting article by Jack Kelly. I don't always agree with his stuff entirely. I had recently begun wondering some of that myself-like why did the Church have to be raptured on a Jewish holy day. While I can't argue with the day of Pentecost theory (it certainly seems reasonable given the circumstantial evidence) there is another that might hold equally true-Tisha B'Av. Since other calamitous things have happened on that day and the Rapture according to some is going to be used of God to cause Israel to be jealous seems like the day that Israel mourns the fall of both Temples, Jerusalem etc would be equally likely
Welcome Vicki!
Hope all the moms had a great day.
I was just watching the news.... has anyone heard from Wilma since this last round of tornados hit her state?
Shalom, all!
I'd have to disagree with Jack Kelly on this issue with the Jewish Holidays and the eclipses, mostly because his objections are based on his belief in a pre-tribulation rapture. And Jib, I'd also have to disagree with Tisha B'Av, simply because in Zechariah it says that "the fasts of the fourth and fifth months (Tammuz and Av) shall become feasts of joy." Now some might argue that having all the Christians disappear would be reason enough for the Jews to celebrate, but I don't think that's what the good Lord has in mind.
Lisa, normally I'd be making some smart remark about "telling me where to find these videos so I can avoid them", but after reading all the testimonies here, I don't think I'll go there. I'll steer clear of these videos.
<><
I too am going to steer clear of those videos.
I would think that we are watchmen on the walls. I talk about it a lot to people. Most folks have no clue about any of it or don't care.
Mainly I seem to talk about Ahminijab (or however you spell it hey its 4:30 am) and how he wants chaos so the 12th Iman can appear...(lots of people think we should be able to come to peaceful agreements with this guy) and how we are at the crossroads with Christians, Jews and Moslems all anticipating their Messiahs to come soon, how countries are forming alliances just the way the Bible described they would in the last days, and temple preparations, etc.
I was talking with one of my daughters friends the other day about the cyclone in myanmar and she said that it seemed like the world was coming to an end....so of course tht opened the door for me to spout off to her about it all...again.
Vicki, nice post...its nice to have you onboard.
I have some family roots from Michigan...some family migrated from Virginia to Mich right before the civil war...I'm pretty sure they were part of the underground railroad.
My mother and grandparents moved but there are still folks there that I am distantly related to.
Jim since you broght up Jack Kelley articles I was wondering what you thought about Mark Biltz theory about the blood red moons in 2015 and all of that.
These are all theories....they are fun and interesting to hear and talk about.
China: 107 dead, 900 students buried in quake
www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/05/12/china.quake/index.html?eref=rss_world in case that linkdoesn't come thru
Please pray for these people and families
<><
not sure what i am doing wrong regarding those links!
Donna,
I do that all the time. If you have one space or something out of line it does that.
The update on the deaths was estimating 3000-5000.
Who cannot take notice of what is happening now? The contractions are getting stronger and more frequent.
Lisa
Praise You in This Storm
words by Mark Hall/music by Mark Hall and Bernie Herms
I was sure by now,God, that You would have reached down
and wiped our tears away,
stepped in and saved the day.
But once again, I say amen
and it's still raining
as the thunder rolls
I barely hear You whisper through the rain,
"I'm with you"
and as Your mercy falls
I raise my hands and praise
the God who gives and takes away.
Chorus:
And I'll praise you in this storm
and I will lift my hands
for You are who You are
no matter where I am
and every tear I've cried
You hold in your hand
You never left my side
and though my heart is torn
I will praise You in this storm
I remember when I stumbled in the wind
You heard my cry to You
and raised me up again
my strength is almost gone how can I carry on
if I can't find You
and as the thunder rolls
I barely hear You whisper through the rain
"I'm with you"
and as Your mercy falls
I raise my hands and praise
the God who gives and takes away
Chorus
I lift my eyes onto the hills
where does my help come from?
My help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth
I lift my eyes onto the hills
where does my help come from?
My help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth
Chorus
Officials: Suleiman visit last-ditch effort to prevent IDF strike in Gaza
Last Ditch Effort Israel
Hey Dudes! (Remember I'm from CA)
Mac, I can't believe what you've found! Did ya'all read this Jerusalem Academy Mac posted? (Now I'm faux TN)
Here are some highlights:
"bridging gaps within Israeli society, bringing about reconciliation between Jews and Arabs and to create the necessary spiritual, psychological and economic conditions for peace and well-being throughout Israel and the world."
"Rediscovering and applying our psychological, mental and spiritual powers we are able to turn the destiny of permanent descent into a path of upliftment and growth on all levels - individually, economically, socially and of course in the field of culture and civilization. Returning to the transcendental source of our own sensitive soul, we will be able to draw light divine from the realm of spirit into the darkness of this world in order to transform this land – and this entire planet – into a garden of blessedness and prosperity."
Hello, Anyone out there?
What do you think this is?
I like this one:
"Returning to the transcendental source of our own sensitive soul,"
This is right up Oprah's alley.
Anti-Christ here He comes!
Look at the affiliations of this Jerusalem Academy. This is one of them-It's "New Age" and infilterating the "thought process" of this Jewish Organization.
Wold Commission of Global Consciousness and Spirituality
"When we expand our rational consciousness across the spectrum of worldviews we rise to a global perspective in which striking patterns become more evident in our cultural evolution. In this higher dimensional lens we can see, for example, that the human condition has matured, evolved, and arrived at a critical threshold, and which direction we now choose to take will determine our future sustainability."
This is why we have been recently made aware of the return of "New Age" thinking. The "wording" of these statements may have been strange to me before I knew about it but now it SCREAMS out.
I'm taking a break now. Overload.
Lisa
I was clicking down the windows but now saw this:
Here's your swami:
Swami's Report
Has anyone heard from Grany? I know that she lives somewhere along the Oklahoma/Arkansas border because she talks of going to Ft. Smith all the time.
Let's be sure to keep her and Jim in prayer.
Grace
Farwell Israel Movie
Farewell Israel
I don't think it's a Biblical perspective but looks good.
Jim
while I would agree that Tish B'av will at some point be a time of joy there are only four circumstances in which I think it would be a time of joy for Israel and I am biased I admit toward the last.
1-God intervening in the war of Gog and Magog rescuing Israel in an obvious fashion.
2-dedication of the third temple or at the very least serious active commencement of building of the third temple
3-the AC confirming a covenant with the many for peace (hey we know it's a false peace but they won't think so, in fact it would a major historic milestone)
4-Christ's second coming to set up His millennial kingdom
As far as the Pentecost goes-irrelevant of why who celebrates it for what reasons Pentecost was originally a Jewish holiday whose ultimate fulfillment was with the coming of the Holy Spirit. We as western Christians and even the Eastern orthodox do not celebrate Pentecost on it's appropriate day. The timing of the Jewish feast days has not changed since they first observed. While we might have celebrated Pentecost this last weekend it really isn't until June 10th because it still should be a Jewish holiday only they don't celebrate the right reason for Pentecost-yet.
link for donna
China Quake kills thousands
Donna
I must admit I have the website for html bookmarked in my favorites just in case. most of the time however it just won't let me post the silly thing and it's usually because the "" marks or the <> marks are missing or not in the right place
Blue link tutorial
it took me awhile to find the town where the tornadoes just went through but it is a rather significant distance from where Grany lives so she's likely fine she's just cleaning out her inbox :-)
Scott Robinson,
When I read this I thought of you.
What? Me Worry?
Lisa, Shalom!
One thing struck me about that "Jerusalem Academy": I clicked on your link to read about the swami, then I clicked on the "We about Us" button, and I suddenly flashed on something I had read in a comment to a newspaper several months ago. It was something to the effect that very few Jews raise objections to their young Jewish people going to India and studying Hinduism under some swami, yet they will cry to the heavens and rend their garments if their young Jewish people decide to become Messianic Jews.
The other thing about that site is that there is music in the background; very nice music, to be sure, but there is no way to turn the music off. If forces me to pause my music player for as long as I'm at that site. DEFINITELY something I'm going to complain about.
Donna, Shalom! As for the "blood red moons" in 2014 and 2015, I view them as signposts, not destinations. When a date is important in Scripture, that date will be noted. In Deuteronomy 1:3,7-8, it says, In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses spoke to the Israelites all the commands that the LORD had given him in their regard. ... 'Leave here and go to the hill country of the Amorites and to all the surrounding regions, the land of the Canaanites in the Arabah, the mountains, the foothills, the Negev and the seacoast; to Lebanon, and as far as the Great River (the Euphrates). I have given that land over to you. Go now and occupy the land I swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, I would give to them and to their descendants.' This passage gives a date: the first day of the eleventh month (i.e., 1 Sh'vat). In this year, 1 Sh'vat corresponds to 8 January, which is when Bush stood before the Jewish people and said that Moses was wrong.
In other parts of scripture, though, no specific dates are given but enough clues are left to guess a season. In Isaiah 17 (the Oracle on Damascus), verses 5 and 6 say:
5 Like the reaper's mere armful of stalks when he gathers the standing grain; Or as when one gleans the ears in the Valley of Rephaim.
6 Only a scattering of grapes shall be left! As when an olive tree has been beaten, Two or three olives remain at the very top, four or five on its fruitful branches, says the LORD, the God of Israel.
For those who haven't grown up in farming communities, gleaning is when you go through the fields and pick up the bits of grain that got knocked off the head during harvesting. So, the Oracle on Damascus can be expected sometime after harvest season; either late spring (for winter wheat) or in early autumn (for the summer wheat.) Vs. 6 talks about beating the olive tree to get the olives at the very top of the tree. This is normally done only during the fall harvest, since those olives would be larger and have more oil. HOWEVER, I can imagine when you'd want to do that during the spring harvest too, if there was (for example) a shortage of food and you got top shekel for every kilo of olives you could produce.
So here we do NOT have a specific date, but we do have clues to a season: either late spring or early autumn.
Likewise, we have four eclipses occurring on significant Jewish holidays. It's a warning to the Jewish people that SOMETHING important is about to happen; however, that doesn't mean the event will happen on that holiday or ANY holiday, for that matter. It's a warning to prepare, not a promise of immediate action (especially since these eclipses occur over a period of two years). That's why I'm not convinced that the Tribulation will begin this fall, but I see it as a warning that it will be coming soon: maybe in two years, maybe in five, but no more than seven.
<><
Grumpy & Harold (you have to listen to this)
2015? 2015? 2015?
Well, Well, Well. Last night I saw an interesting Biblical Numerology book. I thought to myself-that sounds interesting since I know nothing about it.(so I ordered it last night)
Then today I'm looking around and found someone talking on this very subject. And guess what? He feels the Day of our Lord is 2015 and the 7 years starts Sept 2008. (This was recorded in 2006)
If your interested listen:
Prophesy 2015
(I don't particularly agree w/his America assessment @ this point.)
Then this jumped out at me today:
Read Isaiah. Particularly 3 & 14
14 says:
"The Lord has mingled a perverse spririt in her midst; And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work, As a drunken man staggers in his vomit."
Is this not the Toronto Blessing?
Lisa, Shalom! I'm a little confused? Do you mean all of Isaiah chapter 3? The section you quoted about Egypt comes from Isaiah 19:14. I personally am of the belief that Isaiah 19:1-17 is a fulfilled prophesy.
Ever since Egypt became an independent nation, it has had one cruel master after another. The present president is preparing his son to take over from him, and no one dares tell the president when there are any problems (such as food riots).
The Aswan Dam was built to stop the flooding of the Nile and to generate electricity. It has become the worst ecological disaster in the world. Because there is no more regular flooding of the Nile river delta, there is no more flushing salt back into the sea. (Salt from the sea is leaching into the soil further and further inland, since it's not getting flushed out.) The land is no longer getting regular doses of fertile mud from the flooding, so the farming productivity is going down. The river is drying up, and the reeds and rushes are withering away. This is fulfilling verses 8-10 about the fishermen, the linen-makers, and the workers.
Verse 15 ("Egypt shall have no work to do for head or tail, palm branch or reed") has come true. The government is the largest employer, and unemployment is rampant. This has lead to growing influence of the Muslim Brotherhood, causing brother to war against brother (verse 2).
Since the rest of chapter 19 deals with Egypt's coming to recognize the G_D of Israel, and the coming Egypt-Israel-Assyrian highway, I think all of Chapter 19 has to do with Egypt rather than Toronto.
<><
Hi Jim,
I didn't mean it in terms of that fulfilled prophesy but yes the Chapter 19 was an accidental ommision.
"The Lord has mingled a perverse spririt in her midst; And they have caused Egypt to err in all her work, As a drunken man staggers in his vomit."
But rather:
There is a perverse spirit mingled (Holy & Evil)in the midst of that congregation and have caused these Christians to err in all their work (Even though they mean well), and as you know they fall around like they are drunk in their own "self experience"(vomit)egos.
This guy see's these "Angles" and has one named just like Oprah and her clan. This "New Age" spirit of desiring a higher spiritual "experience" is infiltrating the Church. Remember the Laodiceans-"I will vomit you out of my mouth."
Notice that God did this on purpose in Egypt. Has God also allowed this in Florida to test those Christians now? To see if they have discernment?
That's the type of "shadow" I meant & the why it jumped out at me.
Not the bigger picture of the chapter. But thanks for reminding me of the Dam as that's also very interesting.
Lisa
I may have posted about this before, I know I did at Joel's.
Concerning the "blood moon" theory, or any theory for that matter. This may be something to keep in mind if you think this teaching may be correct. It is certainly something to consider when looking at "timing" theories. I think he makes a very good point.
Any comments??
Blood Moon Follow Up
Ask a Bible Teacher
Q. I have been reading the articles about the moon and eclipse and frankly, it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Date setting tends to give me the creeps. One web site did say that it was not an attempt to set a date, but rather to give info that might lead to further study on the subject, which I intend to do. We all know that the "birth pangs" have gotten stronger-that is apparent. What we don't know is how far the Earth has to be "dilated" in order for the Rapture to take place. Can you give some insight as to this dilemma? Have I overlooked something?
A. From my studies I have concluded that the Rapture is not connected to any other end tines event, nor is it "scheduled" to take place on a given day, and certainly not on a Jewish Feast Day, which are fulfilled in a manner significant to Israel.
The key to its occurrence is in Romans 11:25 where Paul used what I think were two carefully selected phrases in writing, "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in."
The first phrase to which I refer is "full number". It was a nautical term that described the number of soldiers and sailors that had to be contracted and on board before a ship could set sail. As soon as the full number was accounted for the ship left the harbor but not before. Often some of the crew were obtained in suspicious ways, so the ship left the harbor the minute all were on board. In effect, no one knew the exact day or hour of departure, and the ship often stole away in the middle of the night, before some of the most recently contracted crew members woke up from their drunken stupor to discover what had been done to them.
The other phrase is "has come in." It was another nautical term that meant "to arrive at its destination". You've probably heard someone say, "I'm waiting for my ship to come in" meaning he's waiting for his fortune to arrive at its destination, in this case his bank account. It's a play on words that came from this term.
When I put it all together, I think that Paul was telling us that the Rapture is a number specific event not a date specific one, and that's why no one will know the day or hour. There is apparently a "full number" of members in the Church and when the full number has arrived at its destination, heaven, then the Lord will turn again to Israel and fulfill the last seven years of Jewish history, Daniel's 70th Week.
That being said, since no one knows the full number, no one can guess the day and hour of the Church's departure. But as soon as the full number is reached the Church will set sail for it's destination no matter what day or hour it happens to be. Then the scheduled End Times events can begin to happen, because they're all geared toward accomplishing 2 things for God. One is disciplining Israel and the other is completely destroying the unbelieving world (Jer. 30:11) and the Church has no part in either.
God Bless!
Concerning the current revivals, angelic visitations, etc.....
The leadership of the church involved in the Toronto blessing freely admit that they allowed things to get completely out of hand. This is why the Blessing stopped... They have admitted that they allowed things to go on that should never have happened, due in part to their lack of knowledge concerning the things of Holy Spirit.
Lisa's previous post concerning what being "in the flesh" and my previous comments about the meeting a few weeks ago here in Niagara need some further comments.
Similarly Lisa's comment on being "drunk" in the Spirit.
When God's Holy Spirit falls on a congregation, you will see some strange things happening. Some of this, but not all, is the result of people's old (=flesh") nature coming out.
For example, barking like a dog, simulated copulation, wild unrestrained behavior, can usually be regarded as "in the flesh' behavior. As can undisciplined worship, overly loud music, excessive and loud clapping, abandoned dancing, violent jumping about, shouting - such things people will do out of ignorance when they are "trying" to get "into the Spirit", as we are commanded to. However, much of this is just fleshly actions and emotional exuberance. Being "in the Spirit" is being in a place - the place where God resides, not a state of mind or way of behaving.
However, such things as being "slain in the Spirit", being "drunk in the Spirit" have scriptural backing.
When the Glory Cloud (the "Shekinah") came down at the inauguration of Solomon's Temple, the priests could not stand because of the power. [1 Kings 8:10, 2 Chronicles 5:14, 2 Chronicles 7:2].
When Ezekiel had a vision of the glory of God, he fell on his face. [Ezekiel 1:28]. it would appear that he might have died, because the next few verses in Ch.2 say that the Spirit had to enter him to get him back on his feet. Similarly n Ezekiel 44:4.
When Paul had his experience on the road to Damascus, he too fell down under the glory of God. [Acts 22:6]
When John first saw the glory of God he fell down like a dead man. [Revelation 1:17]
Even in Heaven, it seems there are times when no one can stand before the glory of God in His temple..[Revelation 15:8].
Regarding being "drunk in the Spirit", if you think about it, why did the people in Jerusalem assume that the disciples were drunk on the first Pentecost - they must have appeared "drunk". It is possible to be so overcome by the power of God that you cannot walk, and if you try, you will appear to be very drunk.
Similarly, "laughing in the Spirit" - this can appear at times to be almost hysterical. Having experienced that, it's more that you cannot control the laughter, and you end up literally unable to do anything except laugh and giggle, with the tears streaming down your face - most undignified, but wonderful.
Thee are times when I have seen people "running in the Spirit" - the most notable that I have personally seen was a friend who had had major back problems for years, and couldn't run to save his life, running round and round a huge auditorium after he was healed. He ran for at least 10 minutes, but never appeared to be out of breath or labored in anyway.
When I talk about "people exhibiting "fleshly" behavior, I mean doing things that hinder a move of God. For example:
Applauding a prophecy, or a worship song. This is just bringing God down to our level, as if we were at the theater or a sports activity.
Jumping around with total abandon, such that they distract from the rest of the worship - including excessive jumping, body movements.
Choreographed dance - this is just entertainment - and can be very distracting, especially for the men if women are involved.
Flag waving - can be major distraction - although it seems popular with Pentecostals - has no basis in scripture.
Any behavior that smacks of sexual activity, including simulated copulation, or women dancing in an erotic or explicit fashion
Having said that, it may seem to our eyes when Holy Spirit moves through a congregation, that there is chaos and confusion, but you will find that people will do strange things. Remember that when the early Church was "of one accord" they were "filled with the Holy Spirit and the building shook!!" [Acts ]
You need to remember that God's ways are most definitely not our ways.
Just think of some of the bizarre things Jesus did when he healed peopl...
Spitting on their tongue, sticking His fingers in their ears, spitting on the ground and making mud, which He then plastered on a person's eyes.
What would we say today if people tore a hole in the roof of the building during a church service so that they could get a sick friend down to be prayed for - it happened to Jesus!
God is not a "tame" God, nor is He a "safe" God, in the sense that He requires us to be without emotion, or behave in a manner reminiscent of the Victorian age, quiet, submissive, silent, hands together in pious prayer, never talking in church, with the women not allowed to wear makeup or pretty clothes (based on that verse in 1 Timothy 2:9).
If you actually take the trouble to read the original text, Paul is saying that women (the context is refering to "wives" not all women) should not FOCUS on just (merely) their outward adornment - he was NOT advocating that they should not adorn themselves with makeup and jewelry, and braid their hair attractively; if he was, and you want to be literally correct, then he is also saying they should not wear clothes - the word "costly" or "fine" does NOT appear in the original text (although I am sure husbands would appreciate their wives not wearing any clothes at home sometimes!!)
I find it sad when one visits some denomination churches where even the slightest levity or expression of joy is frowned upon, everybody either is silent or speaks in whispers, thinking that this expresses reverence. Church is supposed to be a gathering of God's family, where joy and love manifest, where we can be ourselves, and where we can come together to express our love for God to Him in worship, praise, laughter, joy, happiness, good food....
Scripture tells us that God delights in the praises of His people, that He sings over us with joy, that He laughs with us, that He claps His hands over us, that He laughs. He also has a great sense of humor, as I am sure many of us can testify.
Jesus commands us to "love the Lord your God with all your heart [innermost being], with all your soul [will, emotions, senses], and with all your mind [thinking ability, intellect]".[Matthew 22:37]
Personally, I would rather have some wild-fire, that might need to be damped down occasionally, than be with a bunch of wet blankets who wouldn't catch fire even if a blow torch was directed at them, and if the wind of the Spirit blew through a building would probably run out screaming "tornado alert", and shouting out that the devil had come!
Regarding angelic visitations and instructions to believers - if you read through the New Testament, there are constant occurrences of angels coming to assist, comfort, direct or even warn believers about events and people that could harm them.
The Bible says that one of the main purposes of angels is to be ministering spirits to US, sent from the Throne of God to work on our behalf [Hebrews 1:14]. It would be very strange if we were never aware of this activity. They are also assigned by God to be in charge over us [Psalm 91:11], to protect us.
See Acts 5:19 - The apostles' miraculous escape from prison.
Also Acts 8:26-39 - Philip's encounter with the Ethiopian Eunuch
Acts 10 - the story of how an angel visited the gentile Roman Centurion Cornelius, and told him to send for Peter, resulting in the Gospel being given to the Gentiles for the first time
Acts 12:5-19 - Peter's miraculous escape from prison.
Acts 27:23-44 - Paul's visitation by an angel whilst on the ship taking him to Rome, just before it was shipwrecked
According to Revelation, every church has an angel assigned to it.
Furthermore, in Revelation we see that angels have a very key role in the events of the end-times. It is clear that they constantly do battle for us in the heavenlies, so it would seem that we should expect more and more angelic activity to become apparent to us as the time draws near to the end of this age.
Finally, John clearly states at the end of Revelation that God will send His angel to us "to show His servants the things which must shortly take place" [Revelation 22:6]. If we really are almost at the Tribulation we should EXPECT angelic visitations to be occurring more frequently.
We ALL have guardian angels - the relevant texts indicate we probably have more than 1 each. [See 2 Kings 6:17, Ps. 91:11, Matthew 18:10].
Although we are commanded not to worship them, they are fellow servants and citizens of heaven [Revelation 22:9], and as such are, I believe, going to be increasingly visibly involved in our affairs as this age comes to a close. There is even the promise that they will be dispatched to preach the gospel during the Tribulation.
John
Boatman, Shalom! You wrote:
We ALL have guardian angels - the relevant texts indicate we probably have more than 1 each. [See 2 Kings 6:17, Ps. 91:11, Matthew 18:10].
My mother KNEW that I definitely have more than one guardian angel, since I actually made it through childhood alive!
<><
Hi Folks, thanks for your responses and posts JIb I added that hyperlink site to my favorites, thanks.
Jim...did Bush really say moses was wrong? I must have missed that. What was he referring to?
John, I believe in the gifts of the spirit, too...but we have to be s-o-o-o-o careful because Satan has a counterfeit for every true gift of God.
Careful study and prayer is required for discernment. Because if we fall for Satan's counterfeit, we will be deep, deep trouble. Just because we think something is okay and similar to an event in the Bible, doesn't mean it is!
One example is that when someone in the Bible had a visit from a heavenly being they fell on their faces...not bowled over backward like is seen in some churches.
As for your reference to the apostles being called drunk. Acts 2 says "And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."
These were doubters and mockers who said this. There was no evidence from the previous verses that the apostles were acting in a drunken manner. They were given the gift of tongues to preach in known tongues to the many people from foreign lands who had assembled there.
The mockers and doubters couldn't understand or explain it, so they were trying to cause unbelief and disparagement against the Christians.
Vicki
John,
That was a very good teaching.
When the Spirit falls on our Congregation we don't exhibit much "fleshy" expression.People are certainly not "dead" but raise their hands and say prayers.Probably most non-denominational Churches are similar. It would be closer to soaking in the suns rays.
From what I can understand it's typically the Full Gospel Churches that very "expressive." And as you pointed out many of these actions are acceptable.
When I see these guys "Laughing in the Spirit" (I wasn't sure about that one but have heard legitimate ministers saying they've had that experience) and running around "slaying in the Spririt" with people falling around all over the place.
I just need to know- What is the purpose of that? Sure looks like the preacher is having a great time. But for the life of me I can't figure out the purpose of it.
I completely understand about the "weight" of God's Glory in scripture and how it can still apply today.But I don't envision the Diciples in the "Party" atmosphere of these wild eyed ministers.
"When the Glory Cloud (the "Shekinah") came down at the inauguration of Solomon's Temple"- This is funny because this Sunday when we went into the Church there was a smokey haze throughout the building. I immediately thought of the Shekinah glory cloud but we were the first service (plus I've never seen it before)which wouldn't make sense that He would be waiting for us. Ok so it's smoke.Couldn't figure that out either. It was youth day and they were doing the worship & skit for us. So FINALLY I saw they had some type of smoke machine up on the ceiling for effect. (Really-how dumb is that.Sometimes I wonder)
And I LOVED this one:"if the wind of the Spirit blew through a building would probably run out screaming "tornado alert", and shouting out that the devil had come!"
That one just cracked me up!!
But I'm relieved about:
"The leadership of the church involved in the Toronto blessing freely admit that they allowed things to get completely out of hand."
But I'll believe that when I see it.
Most Christians I know believe in angles. But when you have Oprah and other New Agers w/their own psuedo angels and then see this preacher w/his own personal angel who's feathers fly over the congregation- please.
The minute you don't think you can be decieved by counterfit miracles and wonders your in trouble.
Lisa
Michigander,
"They were given the gift of tongues to preach in known tongues to the many people from foreign lands who had assembled there. "
That's what I thought too not so long ago but there is alot more to speaking in tongues than that one particular function.
John would be one of the experts on that here as I was finally set straight. It's all scriptural of course.
I finally "got it" after wrestling with the concept for 6 months.
Lisa
I promise this will be my last comment of the day & night.
In the mail was a 6 page flyer called "Larry Oakley's Conservative Speculator."
It's basically an ad telling me how much money their stock is going to jump in this GPS tracking devise system. This tracking data can be viewed by Cell Phone,Computer, Or PDA.
For people they are starting with the SHOES but they say it can be embeded into anything. 19 countries have placed unsolicited requests for this system.
"Personal Location Services are projected to reach more than 20 million North American consumers by 2011 and 300 million worldwide.."
"Investors will have the opportunity to benefit from our miniaturized, embedded device, designed to work with branded consumer products used to track children, people with Alzheimer's, outdoor adventures, military, police, fire, public safety workers and many more.
The Discovery Channel filmed a special on this company as well as CNBC.
GTX Corp
This is the investor publication:
Wall Street Corner
Oh Vicki!
I'm liking that you're here!
Good answer.
I lied. Please forgive me ):
After I read this link I discovered it had some great resources on it for End Times study.
Resource Links
Thanks for the Biltz link, Nate.
Hey, Grany, you OK what with all those tornadoes?
Anyone else getting the feeling this old world is getting some warnings? Earthquakes, storms, volcanos!! I hear foot steps.
Vicky (michigander)...
You said:
but we have to be s-o-o-o-o careful because Satan has a counterfeit for every true gift of God
Jesus expressly said that if we ask God for the "gift" (read baptism) of the Holy Spirit He would give us this:
9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 “For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
11 “If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?
12 “Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” [Luke 11:9-13]
It is interesting to note that the very next portion deals with the deliverance of a demon-possessed man. Upon studying other portions of the NT, you find that references to "serpents" and "scorpions" usually refers to demonic beings [c.f. Mark 16:18], so what Jesus is saying is that God will never give us something that is not good, or could in anyway be considered evil (or demonic).
When some Jewish exorcists (the 7 sons of Sceva, Acts 19:14-16) tried to invoke the Name of Jesus to set a demon possessed man free, they ended up severely beaten and stripped naked by the demonic power in the man.
As Jesus said, if Satan casts out demons, then his house is divided, and it will surely fall. [Luke 16:17-23].
I do not know of anyone, ever, who, having asked for the baptism of Holy Spirit, got something else.
Now, if you got this far, I am also not sure if your statement above is actually correct. It's hardly in Satan's interest to perform healing miracles in a Holy Spirit led meeting, similarly the operations of the manifestations of Holy Spirit (often referred to as the "gifts" of Holy Spirit) are as Holy Spirit wills - Man cannot choose to exercise any of them, as it says in 1 Corinthians 12:11:
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
There is a very great deal of confusion, even amongst Pentecostals and Charismatics concerning the manifestations of Holy Spirit, leading to error and confusion, and sometimes a great deal of pain in the Body of Christ.
There's a lot of religoin and tradition that promotes the view you have expressed, but I think its main purpose is to actually discourage people from seeking to be used by Holy Spirit to manifest the gifts. Many pastors are terrified of their congregations actually moving out in any significant way to exercise these gifts, partly because they themselves do not understand them, and because they have been taught that Satan can counterfeit them (show me the scriptural evidence), so rather than risk a little "wild-fire", they quench the move of Holy Spirit.
For example, are you aware that there is a world of difference between "praying in tongues" in private, using the tongue language you should have received when you received the Baptism of Holy Spirit, and the "gift of tongues" and the "gift of interpretation" [1 Cor 12:10] which are "as the Spirit wills" and which is for use in congregational settings as a sign to those who do not believe in tongues [see 1 Cor 14:22], as an alternative to the gift of (simple) prophecy [1 Cor 12:10]?
Did you know that you are supposed to pray regularly in your private tongue language (which must, of necessity, be under your control), in order to "build yourself up in your most holy faith" [Jude 20]? Praying in your private tongue language is also the means by which you pray out the perfect will of God for your life - see Romans 8:26-27.
The word used to "build up" in Jude 20 is a construction/building term, meaning to construct or erect an edifice, building, so you can liken praying "in the Spirit" (because that is what praying in tongues is) to adding rooms, floors, whole extensions to your spiritual self - increasing your ability to "walk by faith" and walk (and live) daily "in the Spirit".
You may also find some of the entries on my personal blog of interest.
John
Just a general question for you all.
How many of you here read Tozer?
I bought a couple of books of his for my mother and I've actually read a few chapters myself. He reminds me so much of C S Lewis and I love his devotional passion. I can't wait to get more of his material. I may use some of his thoughts for future posts.
"TEARS OF JOY - AMEN!"
Donna
happy to help.
this is a really cool looking picture
Lightening over volcano
Donna, Shalom! re: President Bush's speech of Jan. 8, 2008, the answer is no -- he did not come out and say that Moses was wrong. He didn't make any biblical references at all, so I doubt he had a clue about the significance of his speech. His speech was very political, about how Israel had to make nice with its neighbors and give their enemies this land that Israel had captured from their enemies after their enemies had attacked them. If it weren't for the date, it would have no significance at all. It's just that, as I said, on the anniversary of Moses reminding Israel that G_D had given them all this land for all time, Bush was telling Israel that they had to give up this land in order to keep their enemies from attacking them. In other words, Bush was telling Israel that they could not depend on the promises of G_D.
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Hi Everyone,
I am not real good at posting long scriptural post with comments. But I would like to be able to share what I believe with others here. I read through all the post almost everyday and I read everything that is written.
Since I am not good at explaining some things in great length, I would like to post a link and I ask that anyone who has an interest or has expressed their beliefs on the same issue to please read thru the whole link.
I do not know how to post links so you will have to copy and paste. Sorry.
I am not trying to divide, I just want to express what I feel is truth on this subject.
With much love to all and
In His Love and Looking up!
Debbie
"I Speak in Tongues More Than You All" by G. F. Rendal
post this link...
http://www.users.on.net/~joeflorence/tongues.html
Let me know what you think.
Thanks
I agree, Vicki and I too am really glad you are onboard!
Jim, thanks for the clarification...very interesting.
Mac, yes I agree, the cyclone, earthquake, tornadoes all seem to be saying "something" even to the "average" person.
Our prayers are all needed for all.
Deb, I am going to check out that link asap...among other things!
I changed the scenery...for a change. I'll put the other photo back if people want.
Obama: Israel a 'constant sore' that 'infects...foreign policy'
The cost of Middle East peace
Hi GT and all-the blood moon/feast days info has really captured my interest. The way all of the timelines the LORD has used in the past to fulfill His prophetic word-feast days, sabbath years- are all converging in 2014-2015.This is definatly a time to watch, pray and share the Salvation of our LORD Jesus with everyone! This is the first time in history that our LORD may come for us before we go to Him.
Jim- are you still thinking of starting a charismatic church? I found it interesting that you were being led in that direction. A minister from my denomination has also decided to start a charismatic church-which is unheard of in my sleeping church!
BTW, Mac, I LOVE the boats and water picture!
Everyone knows about Mt.Etna
erupting right? JIC (Just in Case)
Mt Etna Video
Thanks Lisa for that update.
I have family within driving distance to Mt. Etna.
Actually, it erupts frequently. It's pretty cool, they use the lava for their roads & sidewalks!
Mac - Nice picture. Should we be worried that you have a knack for color coordinating your pictures with font colors? hehehe
Deb, thanks for the link. I started reading it but ran out of time. Will continue later, as it does look very interesting.
Thanks,
WILMA? Where are you woman?
dibdabdeb,
I have perused the book you provided a link to.
Unfortunately, this man, as does many others, fails to understand the expression "praying in the Spirit". He never even mentions it. The two key passages are in Romans 8:26-27 and Jude 20.
You can ONLY do that by praying with your private tongue language.
The other thing I particularly noticed is his confusion between "translation" and "interpretation". A message in tongues given in a church setting requires "interpretation" (as per Paul's careful instruction in 1 Cor 14), which does not necessarily mean literal translation. I have (recently) personally witnessed a message in tongues, together with it's interpretation, where the tongues was an unknown language, yet one of the congregation, a visitor, understood and heard it in Portuguese, and what she heard was different from the "interpretation" - in other words a special message just for her (just as happened on the first Pentecost, when all the 120 disciples spoke in other tongues, and the people around heard them in their own languages). Remember, Paul explains that tongues and interpretations are for a sign to "unbelievers" - those, even if "born-again", who don't know about or understand or believe in these supernatural gifts.
Lastly, Paul expressly says that all the public 9 "manifestations" of Holy Spirit listed in 1 Cor 12:7-11 are "as the Spirit wills". This is obviously not true concerning our private ability to pray in tongues - I for one can and do pray at any time - in fact we have been recently instructed by Holy Spirit, as a Church, that we MUST all pray in tongues MUCH, MUCH more than we have been doing, as this is key to us being strong enough (i.e. being built up as per Jude 20, both spiritually and physically) to withstand what is about to happen on the earth - the final fulfillment of Joel's prophesy concerning the outpouring of the "former and latter rain of Holy Spirit" [Joel 2], in preparation for the world's greatest revival.
There is SO much more than just being able to pray in tongues. All I can do is strongly recommend the book "Tongues Beyond the Upper Room" by Kenneth E. Hagin. This gives the best, and most complete explanation of why we ALL need to be able to pray in tongues in this day and hour. There is also a collection of mini-books that cover all the questions that people ask, such as "Why Fall Under The Power" and "The Gift of Prophecy", giving sound biblical explanations for these things.
Don't let traditions and religion steal God's Truth away from - Jesus even said that mens' traditions can make the Word of God of no effect - destroy its life giving power!
John
Well...all I can say is that there are different schools of thought on a wide variety of biblically related topics, including tongues and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Personally I try not to get to riled up about too much of it, )except of course for the topics I've gotten riled up about already Mary, Saints, etc....we all have out triggers, I guess!)
I do have a real problems when people either try to force tongues on people, or treat people as if they are not full Christians because they have not spoken in tongues and therefore have not been 'baptized by the Holy Spirit'.
I have been familiar with this theology for over 30 years and personally do not agree with it.
I doubt there are any of us that think exactly alike on each and every topic there is.
I'm sure not ever single think I think is accurate.
We live in a fallen world...soon, and hopefully very soon, He will come back again and the scales on our eyes will be removed.
John - I have to ask this question...
Are you of the belief that people that can NOT speak in tongues, are not filled with the Holy Spirit? You've never come right out & said this but you HAVE strongly implied it.
I would have to, respectfully, strongly disagree with you.
I can admit that I am somewhat envious of the folks here that have this gift. I can certainly see that you have great passion for this (rightfully so).
But John, I think you need to keep in mind, that MANY of us cave dwellers do NOT have this gift. The way in which you approach this topic, implies we are doing something wrong & are made to feel guilty & even shamed because we don't have this gift.
There's also the simple truth that some here do not completely agree with you. ;-)
For those of you asked the question about tongues...
My understanding is that being baptised in Holy Spirit is something we have to ask for, in faith, and which happens AFTER we have been born again.
If you want it, you just ask for it and God, not being a respector of persons, will give it to you.
As far as being dogmatic that you haven't received the baptism of Holy Spirit until you speak in tongues, well, just look at the accounts in Acts.
The one thing that was recognised by the Apostles as indiciative of people having received the baptism was that they spoke in tongues. Read the account in Acts 10 -11, where the Gentiles first received the gsopel, and beleived. The question you need to ask yourself is "How did Peter and his 6 Jewish companions KNOW that the Gentiles had recieved the baptismof Holy Spirit?" The answer is there in the text.
God is not a respector of persons. If He did it for Cornelius' household, to the great surprise of Peter and in fact the whole Church at that time, then He must do it for us.
I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks for people to actually start speaking in tongues is answered in Acts 2. Again the question you need to ask is "Who is doing the 'talking" - speaking in tongues?" Careful study shows that it was the disciples who were speaking - the Holy Spirit gave them the "utterances" - the words to say, which welled up on the inside of them, just as Jesus had promised -
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. [John 7:37-39]
and also Luke 24:49:
“Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
This being "endued with power from on high" is a different experience from being "born-again", because in John 20:22 we read that Jesus, after His resurrection (and on the same day), "breathed" on the disciples and gave them new life, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit”, which indicates that they, at that point, became born again, and the Church was started - Jesus being the first member, and the Head, of the Church.
I certainly do not wish in any way, to make the claim that those who are "baptised in Holy Spirit" and speak in tongues are any better than those who do not. My only comment is that Jesus made it very clear that this was something He wanted to give the whole Church, and this would be to their advantage [John 16:7, 13-14].
I know this may upset some of your theology, but Jesus, when he wsas baptised in the jordsan by John, also received the "baptism of the Holy Spirit". He operated in 7 of the 9 gifts of the Spirit - he did not need to have the gift of speaking in tongues because He could speak freely and easily to His Father in Heaven. We, still having our old nature (only our spirit is recreated at the new-birth, we still have to deal with our unregenerate soul (mind, intellect, will and emotions) and our bodies. We therefore need all the help we can get, and one of the tools God has made available to us is the ability to pray "in the Spirit" using our private "tongue language", which is received when we receive the baptism of Holy Spirit.
I am not going to make any dogmatic statements concerning the baptism of Holy Spirit and about tongues - all I can suggest is that one study the Word, especially the Book of Acts, to see what actually happened.
If you are "born again" you are a citizen of Heaven, and we will all meet at the Cafe after the Rapture...
John
John,
Thank you for the response.
I agree that we should ask to receive the Holy Spirit & that it is in fact different than being saved/born again.
For all the rest... I, with great love & respect, am going to have to agree to disagree with you & leave it at that!
Thanks,
John, I agree with you in many ways. However, I disagree with the assumption that praying in the Spirit means praying in tongues. I do not speak in tongues, but I know the difference between praying in the Spirit and just uttering an almost mindless prayer. I have been very open to the gift of tongues and have had hands laid upon me with others praying in tongues for the baptism of the Spirit. I have been full of faith that I could receive this gift. (Lisa, your experience reminded me of mine, except I sensed the Spirit telling me this is not the gift I have for you.) I do not have it and am satisfied that I am fully sealed and filled with God's Spirit, and that I can grieve Him as well. I have a number of other gifts, though admittedly don't always put them into practice. I, of course, desire to be more and more like Jesus and to exhibit more of the fruit of the Spirit daily.
Also, I see no scriptural evidence that there are two forms of speaking in tongues. If you are using the scripture that includes being or praying "in the Spirit", remember I do not accept the assumption that this means speaking in tongues.
Jude 17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
In the Jude passage there is no mention of tongues. The Romans passage mentions "groanings too deep for words" (tongues speak words). I have, in prayer, most certainly groaned with something too deep for words, from the depths of my heart. But, there have never been words which I could not understand.
Lastly, I am sceptical of Hagin after hearing him speak several years ago. I was amongst a crowd he was speaking to when he proclaimed with great fervor that he was going to live to be 120. Not long after he died at I believe the age of 79. He has been challanged by many including those from Oral Roberts University, where I think he strted out. I haven't looked closely at him for some time, so my facts might be off.
I'm hoping that you will hear this in the spirit in which it is intended: expression of the reason I believe the way I do and not critisism of you, personally. I have come to know you as a person who loves the Lord and has had interesting and compelling experiences in the areas of the gifts of the Spirit (ie: the healings you mentioned in one of your last posts).
If the Lord ever chooses to impart on me the gift of speaking in tongues, I will accept it with gladness and thanksgiving.
(In previewing my comments, I saw your last post which came while I was writing mine. I think I could expound further, but we might both still come to the same conclusions, so I'm going to put this to rest and go on to other things for today. God Bless you, John. I hope this doesn't cause dissension.)
Alesia
sent you an email from the health club and it had the wrong email address appended to it so sent you a note with the correct one
JIB
Got it & sent ya one back!
Thanks
Lightshine, Shalom! You wrote:
Jim- are you still thinking of starting a charismatic church?
I want to emphasize that I am not considering starting a church. There is a group called the Catholic Charismatic Movement that encourages more scripture study, a deeper prayer life, and making oneself more open to the Gifts of the Spirit. It is not a church, but a devotional movement similar to a number of other movements in the Roman Catholic Church that involve prayer and scripture study with a particular focus (i.e., there are several groups that are dedicated to praying for an end to abortion; or are praying for the mothers who choose abortion, the doctors who perform abortions, and the souls of the children who are aborted.)
I was involved in it for about a year back in college and didn't pursue it after I left -- partly because I couldn't find another group where I moved, and partly because towards the end the group appeared to be moving in a "who has the greater gifts of the Spirit" direction. I realize now that attitude was the result of poor leadership of the group. The question I'm asking the Holy Spirit is if He is calling me to form such a group where I live now; and if so, am I being called to lead it. Trying to discern this has lead to a great spiritual struggle in the last couple of weeks, as well as impacting my other duties such as looking for a job, etc. So the topic is still on the table.
<><
Just dropping in to say hi and invite anyone interested to my blog to join in on the discussion regarding eternal security. You'll find it in the comment section of the first two postings.
on May 6, 2008 at 11:16 PM mac said...
I'm just letting everyone know that I have invited someone, who used to post at Joel's, to the cave. His name is Jim (2 Jims now) but he may post as Adopted. Please welcome him when he posts. Thanks.
I'm the "Jim" Mac mentioned. I just wanted to say hello to everyone. While you won't recognize me (I don't believe I ever posted a comment on Joel's blog), I certainly recognize many of you who were regularls at Joel's blog before comments were blocked. I had an opportunity to see Joel speak and to meet him briefly at a church in Tualatin, Oregon several weeks ago. He clearly loves the Lord and is being used by Him.
Alesia, Grumpy, Harold, Late Night Lisa, Jib, Jim.Carroll, Boatman909, and Nate Lewis. I remember you all (and a few more here I'm sure). I really enjoy reading your thoughtful posts.
I'd like to especially thank Overcomer whose blog I was fortunate enough to visit and bookmark. She connected me with Mac. Mac, thankyou for following up and inviting me to this blog. I think I'll probably hang low and not comment much. I imagine I'll be too busy reading comments and following links to related articles and websites to be able to comment much myself.
Looking forward to dropping in regularly though. Phillipians 4:8
dibabdeb,
I read most of that book and made a good point of why tongues were given to the Gentiles as well-To prove to the Jews they were now included in the plan of Salvation. That the whole world could be saved through Jesus sacrifice.
That point was accurate as I had already understood it from reading the Bible on my own.
But then he just get's off on a tangent trying to prove we should not use tongues. And at that point I part ways. I can list scripture to also prove otherwise but that's not my point here.
You all know I was fairly against speaking in tongues not long ago. The only thing that changed my mind was submitting myself fully to God and being sensitive to where the Holy Spirit was leading me in God's plan & will for my life.
I really had to throw out the window all preconceived ideas & go back to the basics. My mind had been filled with alot of "garbage" through the years which needed to be purged.
I pray often for wisdom and discernment to find the truth in scripture. (Being deceived as a JW has alot to do with this) So I feel blessed with those gifts & have continually requested them for some time.
So when I personally read the book of Acts and others- I'm certain that gift is available for Christians today. My eyes have been opened to see that. A few months ago I doubt that would have been the case.
But He has been slowly and gently guiding me along. (Of course I wish he would just club me over the head - but that's not His motis operandi.)
There is so much revelation in scripture we have no idea about. But when God sees fit he uses the Holy Spirit to reveal it to us. So that's another great gift to ask for-the gift of Revelation.
If I know anything-it's that I have come to realize Satan does not want us to obtain ANY gifts of the Spirit. To claim our power over Satan and darkness through the Blood of Jesus and to use it for Kingdom purposes. Christ is the Head and we are the Body. His will on this earth is accomplished through us. If we remain ignorant of what is available to us then we can't be used effectively.
But the bottom line of all this is - If we approach God with the open mind of a child- he will lead us into all truths and reveal his will for our lives.
It doesn't matter what any preacher,priest,minister,denomination tells us. What matters is our burning love,desire, and soul searching relationship with the Lord. He'll never steer us wrong.
No matter what branch of Christian Church we are affiliated with-We are all the Body of Christ. But admittedly we are influenced by our fellowship.
But soon it seems-That will be a concern of the past as Jesus our Lord and King will have us all straightened out. (Whew!!)
Lisa
Nate,
I hope he hurries up and finds that ark. I want to go HOME!(waa waaa waaaaa!)
Looks like Einstein may have had the Baptism of fire!
Whoever finds it better be careful. Remember what happened while David was having it moved to Jerusalem. Who knows, it may have been found lots of times since it was lost, and the finders ashes are floating somewhere in the desert.
I just have to pop in and tell you all Hello. I've been too sleepy to get online.
My husband can count all the dreams he's ever had on his hands. He woke up the other day and told me that he had a dream. He saw the earth with huge chains around it. The chains were tightening and had a loop at the top and the earth was being dipped into water.
I was really surprised. We'll be married 25 years this Oct., I don't remember him mentioning a dream like this, ever.
Jim,
Now you have the Ok to read my crazy posts on strange encounters.
(Of course I think they are demons and not "alien life forms.")
Vatican OK's believing in Aliens
RaptureAlert had posted this song and I thought you might like it.
We sing it @ our Church.(Maybe you do too!)
The Revelation Song
Lisa, Shalom! I want to point out that the Vatican astronomer didn't comment on reports of "alien interactions", just that faith in G_D does not mean you can't believe that life (or even intelligent life) exists somewhere else in the universe.
As for UFOs, I'm withholding judgment. I'm not willing to say all of them are demonic in origin. I do believe that if there ARE some that are legitimate, i.e., intelligent alien life, then the creatures would be from a fallen race. I don't believe G_D would permit a non-fallen race to contact us. This means that any race that would contact us would have a sinful nature like ours, and so would need to be treated with great caution.
Actually, I had more interest in the story right after that one: Pastor to Catholics: 'Great whore' no more
John Hagee, who endorsed John McCain, apologizes for 'hurtful' comments
Should be interesting to see where this leads. Is this a real change of heart for Hagee or is this a ploy to help get McCain elected?
<><
Nice to have you onboard, Jim and we hope you DO have the time to post!
:)
Jim,
In all honesty-I think it's a ploy.
It's hard to believe anyone involved in politics.
But:
Crop circles, Mutilated Cows,Aztec Calander signs,Alien sighting,New Age nonsense,The Jerusalem Academy's acceptance of New Age concepts,Higher Trandesence Spirituality permeating our culture. Angel feathers & Gold dust. (Year 2012)
Doesn't anyone see the connection?
Spirit of the Anti-Christ perhaps?
Hi, John and all,
I want to reiterate that I do believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but I interpret the Bible differently than you regarding the gift of tongues.
I'm sure you are sincere in your belief. But I still want to reiterate that we need to be careful and test the spirits as well as the teachings from people who say they are Christians!
I know you have probably heard these verses before, but I think they bear repeating...
Jesus said in Matthew 24: 24, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
2 Cor. 11:13-15, “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."
1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
And remember, Satan himself knows the Bible better than we do. He even quoted the Bible to Jesus! SO he is not above trickery and deceit in every form. He is the father of lies.
Also I believe that if we are told not to do something in the Bible, and we want to do it anyway, but ask for the Lord's protection while we do it...we will not be protected. I've had people tell me, "Well, they asked God to protect them..." while the person went ahead and did something that the Bible strictly forbade! That's pretty presumptive!
Please know that I'm just saying these things in general and am not specifically addressing tongues.
And please don't take offense at anything I've said. I'm the newbie and don't want to step on too many toes...at least not yet!!
In ending...God is infinitely stronger than the evil one so we have nothing to fear if we stay in God's will.
Have a good evening all!
Vicki
Vicki,
Just to let you know. I was led by the Holy Spirit to pray in tongues.
I'm on fire for the Lord and not demon possessed so I don't know what to tell you on that one.
Possibly, just to keep your mind a little more open when you read the Scripture about it.
Although I used to be against it for myself, I only based that on what I was taught through particular Church associations. After enough study-I came to realize that the Pentecostals and Full Gospel Churches who are Bible believing Christains do have & practice these gifts.
(Although there has been some issues in the past but who doesn't have those at times?)
I'm in a non-demonational Church and just found out they have a seperate class to teach people about Spiritual Maturity and the use of these gifts. All of them.
Otherwise I would have never known anyone elce prayed in tongues in my congregation although I did suspect it because there is a strong sense of the Holy Spirit moving on our congregation.
So my experience with this has been completely outside my Church setting. I love going to my Church but spend most of my time studing apart from them and on my own.
I would have loved to take that special class but with kids/husband gone-it difficult to commit to anything for just me.
But no worries-we comment and debate about many things so please feel free to voice your feelings or concerns.
Ya'all know I do (:
Late Night Lisa
Thanks for the link. It was a good summation of what I've been feeling. I never thought that being a watchman, ready for His coming, was a command. I'm not sure I totally agree with his implication that only those with oil, those watching will go. I think there are many of very mature Christians who may not be focused on His coming right now. Maybe it's like Nehemiah and the wall.... a few of us are working with the bricks and wearing our swords, a few are standing at the top of the wall watching, waiting to sound the alarm if the enemy appears. Maybe we are taking our turn on top the wall right now.
In His Grip,
Scott
"Mac - Nice picture. Should we be worried that you have a knack for color coordinating your pictures with font colors? hehehe"
Alesia, I'll worry if he starts fussing over furniture colors. And if he starts mincing...oye!
Nate, I'll get onto that dehumidifier.
Jim, good to see you post!
Oh, dear, Lisa!
I know you are a good Christian and I never implied you are demon possessed!
If you got that impression from my posts, please forgive me!
Your Michigan friend,
Vicki
Hey, do we get to choose our own colors for our rocks? And do we get to choose rugs & stuff?
The events in Jerusalem this week will be interesting to follow. Let us all pray for the world leaders and for peace in the Holy Land and throughout the world.
Anne - but of course.
But your are responsible for buying your own paint. Please nothing too "girlie" for the rugs - no flowery stuff. We have too many boys here.
Oh & WELCOME Jim!
Yoo-hoo Wilma? Anyone hear from her? I'm starting to worry. ;-(
Shalom, all! I thought this was a joke when I first saw the headline -- I guess not:
Giant Pythons Could Spread Quickly Across South
Quoting from the story:
As if killer bees and kudzu weren't enough, the southern United States may soon have another invasive species to contend with — giant Burmese pythons capable of swallowing deer and alligators whole.
Approximately 30,000 of the big snakes, which can reach 30 feet and 200 pounds, already live wild in Florida's Everglades, thanks to thick-headed pet owners who've released them into the swamps when they've grown too large to keep at home.
In 2004, wildlife researchers found a gory tableau in the Everglades — a 13-foot python had swallowed a six-foot alligator whole. Then the snake's abdomen burst open, killing it and leaving both animals forever conjoined in reptilian mutually assured destruction.
One million live Burmese pythons were legally imported into the U.S. between 2001 and 2006, according to Fish and Wildlife. Almost all of them ended up as pets, and half of them came in through Miami.
Apparently, they can survive and thrive in the lower one-third of the continental US. How far north they can settle and remain viable is up for debate. Since they're related to Indian pythons which live in the foothills of the Himalayas, and which can survive quite well when the temperature dips to 40 degrees Fahrenheit, the northern border has a lot of wiggle room. (sorry!)
This is something for Grany to consider when she comes back on the board. If they make it to the wide open spaces of Oklahoma, does that make them snakes on the plains?
<><
I live only 1 hour from Miami. I have never seen a python outside of a pet store, or online. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, we just don't see them slithering thru our neighborhoods.
What we do see, is an infiltration of exotic lizards; huge green iguanas, night green anoles. Two times I've seen 5 foot long monitor lizards wondering thru small neighborhoods.
Too many people buy these things as pets and turn around and release them when feeding them gets too expensive or the critter grows larger than expected. They become a real nusance.
I'm not freaked out by lizards so it doesn't trouble me as much as say, a spider.
I've held alligators, it's no big deal. ONe was about 8 inches long. The other was quite large, but his mouth was duct-taped shut! LOL
But keep those spiders away from me.
Thanks for keeping a clean cave Mr. Hyde!
"Lastly, I am sceptical of Hagin after hearing him speak several years ago...."
Anne, I've just done some looking into Hagin and I echo your thoughts. I'd advise caution. Test everything.
Being a newbie, can someone please fill me in on the cave references I've been reading about here? Is this refering to hiding in caves during the tribulation?
Thanks and have a good day!
Vick
Viki,
I'm being somewhat sarcastic because there is a time (many years ago) when I was told that by a particular Christian group.(So that's coming from my own mind.)
The "cave" is the nickname or secrete name of "Mr Hyde's Place."
We should have clued you in on that one.
When people were posting on Joel Rosenburg's site there were a couple of really nasty divisive bloggers who used to drive us nuts. So some would escape to "the cave" code word-to chat.
Sorry-it's nothing really. I guess were in a way "hiding" here but that was not our origional intent. It just happened because Joel's comments were shut down due to the bad apples.
When it was shut down the 1st time-I think some of us went into a panic because we kind of became friends and enjoyed the fellowship.
So that's when the backup plan was developed.
Scott Robinson,
I agree with you. The thought of only the "watchmen" making it is a little severe.
I found some of the comments here quite interesting:
Bush Mideast Trip Israel
"And our two nations have both relied on the same principles to help us succeed. We built strong democracies to protect the freedoms given to us by an almighty God. ."
(I wish he would have said "The" Almighty God)
There are some other good things though in the article.
Mac,
What's the dirt you found on Hagin?
I read a couple books written my Hagin Sr. There is also his son Hagin Jr. Which in turn makes it confusing to me when we speak about Hagin.
What I've read from Hagin Sr.(so far) has been well written.I think he preached for 50 years.
Now I recently viewed a Utube video of Hagin-& I think it was Sr. but I don't know what his son looks like. Hagin Sr. died in 2003.
Admittedly what I saw in this clip was what I consider a little "Super Freaky Yeah!".
But I don't immediately throw the baby out with the bathwater.
There are many effective Godly ministers who at some point in their lives-go off the deep end.
Does that corrupt all the good things they have done beforehand?
Or just what they do after they veer off the narrow path?
As foretold for our times today-Many will be veering off.
The full gospel guy I like right now is Perry Stone. But he teaches more on prophetic things in regards to Israel.
Hi Lisa and all,
Your comment about ministers veering off and knowing how that affects a person's ministry is the crux of my prayer time right now (prayers when I am seeking further discernment and understanding.)
I'd like to hear what others think and what Scripture says about the subject. (ie. If a teacher veers into questionable teaching, does that negate all previous sound teaching so that I should not spend time in that person's material?)
The Hagin book that John mentioned (and I know Lisa has read as well) has been invaluable to me. However, in my search for teaching on a few other subjects, I've encountered questions about Hagin's views that I don't know how to mesh with what I think I know (although look at what I thought I knew about the Holy Spirit a few months ago!)
Also, for years, I steered clear of the name Hagin because I was deeply influenced by Hannegraff's radio program "Bible Answer Man." I used to drive several hours a day for work and his program was on the radio during my commute. His knowledge of the Scriptures astounded me and without looking into his beliefs, I took what he taught as gospel truth. He was EXTREMELY anti-Hagin, et al. and so I followed suit, never looking into the beliefs of either man on my own. Interestingly, for years, I had Hannegraff's magazine as an item on my wish-list but no one ever picked that as something to give me (for Christmas or birthday.) I now suspect that the Lord was protecting me from getting further into something that I had no understanding of.
Blessings,
Jen
Oops, forgot to ask Lisa -
Which link are you and Scott talking about?
Blessings,
Jen
Good Morning All,
I was reading in 1 Cor. 12 this morning and something jumped out at me.
Paul says in v. 7 that “to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one (he doesn’t say all) is given the word of wisdom…and to another the word of knowledge.” He works his way through the list. “…to another (he doesn’t say all) various kinds of tongues.”
In verse 13 Paul writes, “For by one Spirit WE WERE ALL baptized into one body…”
When would we all have been baptized into one body?
Based on what Paul says here, I understand the baptism of the Spirit to occur to every believer at the moment of salvation. It is not something we experience outwardly or can feel.
A great day to Everyone!
Kathy
Some of you have talked about demon possession and I have been wondering about my daughter. Stranger by the minute I do have to say and I can go no further with this relationship with my daughter Deanna.
I will just say that when we first met, her boyfriend unofficially diagnosed her as having Borderline Personality Disorder, a very cruel disorder. I know there are some very smart people here that are grounded very well in the Bible and have had Biblical schooling and all that.
Can anyone determine if there is any corelation between demon possession and sexual sins of one of the parents? Does anyone else out there see more and more demonic activity out there when it comes to do with their relationships or is it just me? My daughter cut me out of her life about a year ago after I wrote her a very long letter and shared in that letter everything a dad would ever want to share including the Gospel. She then asked me to never contact her again. Let me back up and say that she found me and we met for the very first time at the end of 2004. There was a break down in communications with each other because of mental problems that were evident in her, I felt the door was closing and she even asked i send her a letter, in which I did. Now a year later on 4-3-08 I attempted to call her and when she answered she just gasped and said don't call me, and then threatened me with a protective order.
Yesterday i text her and said "thinking of you and want you to know in spite of you being mean spirited toward me, i love and care about you and i am praying for you. I encouraged her to open the bible and read it becasue the days are getting darker and the end is coming nearer and nearer". She then wrote 4 hrs later, "Leave me alone! You'll be recieving a protective order on your door step soon! Don't bother praying for me ever again! I don't need it! Don't text me again!"
I am trying to determing if this might be demon possession??? Any way, I expect to never hear from her again (except her myspace shows she is due to have a baby in the mid of july and she is not married), but I care about her soul and I am praying for her everyday and that she doesn't follow through with the restaining order.
The sexual sins are running rampant in her family as they all seem to be afraid of marriage and are living with boyfriends and having children after the mother went through 3 marriages and now divorced and living with her bf, and ponography running rampant in the younger boy. I am sorry for going on and on about this you guys but I feel i need closure some how here and encouragement from you all. I seem to only get that from this forum and feel comfortable sharing this with you.
As to the mother, I feel that I need to simply ask her if the doctors have ever determined if any of the alters (officially been diagnosed as having 8 personalities) are demonic and tell her that I can help her only if she is willing to become a Christian. I need clear direction from God to follow through with this and discernment. I will need guidance in seeking a deliverance ministry to help with that but if the mother is not willing to accept my help than I can only pray.
Pray that my daughter won't follow through with the restraining order and that she is just full of hot air. Pray for me for wisdom in writing to the mother, presenting the Gospel clearly and offering her help from demon possession if there is any(i think there is a good chance that she is)and getting the help she needs. There is a very small crack in the door open in getting my very last and final good bye letter to my daughter by giving it to her mother along with dvd's i have had from Answers in Genesis and Fight The Good Fight Ministries. Thank you all and I know this is very heavy but needed to let you all know. God Bless you all!
-Jec
JEC,
I'll need a little bit of time to think about this one before properly responding.
I know nothing of demon possession, so can't comment on that part.
What jumped out at me immediately: Is this Deanna's 1st child? If so, pray for patience until AFTER this child is born to try to reach out to her again. Having a child WILL alter the way she looks at things & may possibly open that door more than a crack. I know that is going to be very hard for you to do, but the more you reach out to her right now the more she is going to push you away.
The best thing you can do, for right now, is pray, pray, pray!
Will continue praying for you & family.
Hi All---
Loved reading each and every comment on here--!!! I need some prayers--and I am RIGHT NOW going to walk through my house with my Cross and my Bible and demand that satan GET OUT--just reading your posts...and that gut feeling about something evil being around..I have felt that! Its so bad that last Sunday at Church--i could barely HEAR the service!
Nothing BAD has happened per se, so dont worry about that. But I do feel as though I was on fire for so long--that maybe I became a threat...and something is trying to stop me. Does this make sense?
Please pray for me...I'll check in later...
God Bless you for being here...
JC
One last thing I wanted to say is my daughter started having sex with her boy friend at the age of 13. (they aren't together now as she has moved on to another one) Her boy friend was heavily entrenched in the occult with eastern mysticism and was a 10th degree black belt is some ancient chinese art. He has some very bazaar new age beliefs with is why I wrote the long letter to my daughter in the first place and started sharing the Gospel and truths of God's word with her. Let me know if you want to read the letter I wrote. I think some of you now have a better understanding into this sad situation that God has allowed me into. Thanks for hearing out.
In His Love
-Jec
-Jec
Jec,
I have no experience with demon possession either but I do know that the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. (2 Cor. 4:4)
I'm praying that the Lord will step in and remove that blindness.
Kathy
Hi Alesia,
Yes this is her first child due in the middle of July.
Thanks, & God bless you today.
JC, I am praying for you and understand a little bit about those things. You are on my pray list. Have you by any chance been dabling into anything that might be questionable? Horiscopes, new age beliefs or anyone else in your house doing anything that might be against God and what He wants His children doing? Let us know.
with love,
-Jec
I had a very unsettling experience yesterday afternoon just before I posted. I was looking at videos from China and started to cry. Something inside of me said to not cry for them but to cry for my own (as in Luke 23). I pray that it is not a foreshadowing of disasters here in America.
Hey Chicky!!!
Yep, know what you mean. Am praying for you & family, as always.
BTW - Did you get my email I sent you a few weeks ago?
Jec---
Yes...a little dabbling...but I dont want to get into specifics, if thats ok...
I cried as soon as I read your post and then I just had the strangest but good feeling....
I dont know what took me so long to get back here...but this was what I needed...thank you so much for your prayers....I am praying for you as well....
God Bless..
Alesia...yes I did get your email...it is saved as new as I wanted to say lots....
You will hear from me today!!
xoxoxoxo
Jec,
Oh my.
I do know a little about demon possession and it's likely she could be affected.
Especially since she has been diagnosed with mutiple personality disorders. You can be possessed with several different demonic spirits.
Not everyone with mental issues is possessed but it can be a great indicator.
The problem is when the person who has these evil sprits wants them-there is nothing you can do to kick them out.
If they are bothered by them and don't want them - then the evil sprits are required to leave.
Many people have come to Christ after the spirits were expelled.
A Minister with this type of experience is recommended but any Christian has the autority over these evil spirits given to us by Jesus Christ.
(Would I want to do it @ this point in my life ?-No I would not.But if I felt I had to- I would.)
You don't get possessed by the sins of your parents.
But dabbling in New Age and Occult beliefs opens the door wide to it.
I can see how much this is hurting you. But she obviously does not want any help at this point so I would just leave it be. You can pray of course. Just please-focus on your own walk with the Lord.There are many people who need help and also want it.There is so much you can do for God's Kingdom which will be a positive influence in your life.
(MY Bio-Dad is a selfish-ruthless-nasty man under his faux charming exterior. I really think he could be possessed. He's been written off in my book. I'm polite when I have to deal with him & he just scoffs at my Christianity. So be it.If he ever wants to seek the Lord I'll be there.)
Lisa
Jec, Shalom! I'll write a longer post later, but I wanted to let you know I'm praying for you and your daughter; and to jump in and give my two kopeks.
As a Roman Catholic who spent some time studying possession and exorcism (but that's a different story), I can tell you the following things:
1. There is no correlation between sexual sin of the parents and demonic possession in their children.
2. Be cautious in using the word "possession". There are three stages of demonic control: demonic influence, demonic obsession, and demonic possession. Given what you've said in your post there's no way to know what demonic influences are occurring in her life, but I CAN tell you the chances are it's not possession.
3. According to the present rules of the Catholic Church, if her behavior can be explained by an existing recognized medical condition, then it cannot be demonic possession. You wrote, ...we first met, her boyfriend unofficially diagnosed her as having Borderline Personality Disorder, ... Do you know if she was EVER officially diagnosed by a licensed practicing psychiatrist as having that or any similar disorder? If she has been, this does not rule out either demonic influence or demonic obsession.
4. I say "by the existing rules of the Catholic Church" because as we learn more about how the human mind works and more about how demons interact with people we learn better how to deal with these things. We have known for centuries how the Evil One uses physical illness to spread despair. We are now beginning to recognize how the Evil One uses mental illness to spread even more despair.
5. Regardless of how you feel and what you want to do, do not contact her again or attempt to contact her again for one year. Protective orders in most states are good for one year only and need to be renewed every year. By not attempting direct contact for a year you are shielding yourself from any legal action charging you with harassment.
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Hi Lisa,
Thanks your insight. You are right about letting go. The mother is Multiple Personality Disorder and my daughter is Borderline Personality Disorder, two different ones. I know that we have that authority to cast the demons out, but if those that are possessed want that, they have to be willing to become a Christian, otherwise the demons will come back with a venjence. If these people don't want them, they have to be cast out by someone who knows what they are doing and are familiar with it and I don't know if I want to do this but could find someone maybe to do it. I know there nothing I can do for my daughter but to pray. As for the mother, I have never posed the question to her if she knows of herself being demon possed, if she wants help, and if she is willing to become a Christian after clearly declaring the Gospel to her. What do you say to a person like that? Um- by the way,
are you deomon possessed? I think, if God is really leading me toward helping the mother, then a short letter to her asking if she needs help and go from there. I feel I need very clear direction here as when I go to the restraunt where the mother works, I feel so, so uneasy. All i can do is pray and pray, and thats it and let it go.
-Jec
Jim's right about the "Stages."
The Catholics and Pentecostals seem to tackle these issues head
on in their ministry.
I don't know about the other denominations but so far have not heard much from other sources regarding this issue.
The Pastors may deal with these things on an individual basis but I don't think the knowledge of demonic things are widely known in the general context of the congregation.
Any thoughts? Since we all come from different denominations we can take a tally on this subject.
What information I have gleaned on the topic has been trough personal study.
Jec, if you did a little investigating into multiple personality disorders-Does you mom admit to having one? You could give her examples of how people have been cured of these things after seeking the Lord and go to a minister which works with these types of problems.
Just a thought. I'm not sure if people actually realize they have a demonic influence/possession or not. I know they realize they loose control and don't like that.
Lisa
Jec, a little levity...if you give us an inch (by asking our thoughts/advice) we'll take a mile!
But, more seriously, I have just been praying for your family situation.
(Interestingly, Sara's comment about the Lord telling her to pray for our own people kept coming to mind. I found myself just praying for the Father to rescue us. Don't know what that means.)
My two pieces of advice and please forgive me if I am too blunt: I agree with Jim, don't contact her.
But, if somehow you are in contact with her, choose your words very, very carefully. Here's what I mean. When you texted her,
"...in spite of you being mean spirited toward me I love and care about you and am praying for you..."
I'm convinced she heard "even though you are a low down slug, I, being superior to you in righteousness, will pray for you because you need it so badly."
This is not what you said, nor anything close to what you meant, which was probably more like "I love you so much, it hurts"
Being pregnant, she also might be more emotional than normal.
My heart goes out to you, Jec. BTW, I am so surprised at the number of Christian families who are in similar situations where adult children are turning their backs on parents. There are several I can think of in my church just off the top of my head. Parents and grandparents not knowing what to do or even what they did to deserve such treatment. Love is growing colder and colder.
Overcomer:
1 Corinthians 12
Explains that there are is one Holy Spirit who distributes these "gifts of the Spirit" which come from the Father to us. They are distributed individually as needed to accomplish the work for the Kingdom of God. We are all granted different gifts and should not compare amongst ourselves. There is one Spirit but different gifts, ministries, activities , and manifestations.
So we should not expect to have all of them nor can one person do everything that needs to be done.
But-the more gifts one does have-the more is expected from that person.
The Answer to your question:
"In verse 13 Paul writes, “For by one Spirit WE WERE ALL baptized into one body…”
Is that we individually are all a member of the "Body of Christ". God has made us and has a unique place for each of us in His body. We need to be satisfied where He has placed us, knowing He has placed us there for His specific purposes. We may not always draw the most attention (ie:Pastors) but our contributions are vitally important to the whole functioning of the body. (that part was paraphrased from Chuck Smith as he says much better than I could)
This is explained from verse 12-27.
The head of this body is Christ. The body represents the Church.
Then in 13:10
"But when that which is perfect has come, than that which in part is done away with."
When Jesus returns we will not need to use these gifts anymore.
Chapter 14 tells us we should desire Spiritual gifts. Also giving you the other reasons why people speak in tongues.
But the bottom line is you can ask for certain gifts but untimately He will give you what is needed for you in your life.
Joel 2:28-29 Says God will pour out His Spirit "in those days."
Jen,
Scott & I were talking about the "What,Me,Worry?" Link about 1/4down the page from the top.
Jen,
I have (finally) posted a response to your question from last week on "confession" - see here.
Hope it helps your understanding
John
Lisa,
My point was not to argue whether or not tongues are for today. I have no desire to get into a discussion regarding the issue.
In 1 Cor. 12:13 Paul says, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”
In 1 Cor. 12:30 Paul asks, “All do not speak in tongues, do they?”
In 1 Cor. 14:5 Paul says, “Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues…” Obviously they all didn’t.
Based on what Paul said above, do you think he would tell us today that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues?
Paul says in Rm. 8:9 "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."
That clearly means that all believers have the Holy Spirit. If all are baptized into one body by the Holy Spirit but not all speak in tongues, it makes much more sense to me that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an event that occurs when the Holy Spirit initiates faith at the time of the believer’s salvation.
I do not see the baptism of the Holy Spirit as something that should be pursued and sought for after salvation.
2 Peter 1:3 says, “Seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness...” How? “…through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.”
What I believe we should throw our whole being into is letting the word of Christ dwell in us richly. That is where our vitality and power comes from to live as effective Christians.
I just heard from Grany (Wilma).
She's OK - Thank you Lord!
She told me to tell everyone she's been busy trying to wade through her work but will return to the cave soon.
Me happy now! (well, I was happy before -- but now I'm really, really happy) LOL
REPORT: Orlando Revival.
I know a pastor here who is a Godly man. He went up to the Orlando revival to "check it out" since everyone was talking about it.
He said it is very real and Biblical.
The media including the net, hasn't reported on this properly.
Just as there are several opinions here, some who have attended have not agreed because of their opinion of what is from God and what isn't.
I think John described on an earlier post that some shaking and such may be someone being delivered and that is the general consensus.
We should not be concerned, but we should pray that God raises up an army of believers to follow up on the conversions and deliverance that is going on in Orlando.
Note on Baptism: Maybe John or Jim can expound on this? I read recently that Moses baptised. Can you give us more information on the Jewish tradition of Baptism?
:)
Overcomer,
I didn't know you had a point. I thought you had a question.
So I tried to answer it regarding Spiritual Gifts.
I honestly don't even know if you speak in tongues but since the topic followed next where we were in Scripture I had mentioned it in case someone wanted to read on further.
I'm not going to add to what I previously posted to you. Apparently it was not digested.
Lisa
I was listening to this today and found it to be a good sermon. The only trouble is he's preaching in Panama and has a translator- so if you can get beyond that distraction-the infomation is valuable.
Getting to Know the Holy Spirit by David Wilkerson
Kathy,
Thanks for that post.
I need to think about that some more, for it does make a lot of sense to me.
Lisa,
You are right. You were posting on spiritual gifts. I missed that. Please accept my apologies. My post was regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Sorry again for any misunderstandings on my part!
Alesia,
I was just trying to help out those who may have felt like they need to speak or pray in tongues to live a vital Christian life. Our power does come from the Holy Spirit but I believe walking by the Spirit is directly related to one's walk in the Word.
I take Scripture at face value. Jude 20 says: "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit." Does the Holy Spirit mean tonques? I don't see it. What I do see is that we should be praying in line with what God's Word says.
Kathy,
Yep, I'm in complete agreement with your first paragraph & was trying to softly have your back. :-)
New post is up!
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