14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,
21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
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148 comments:
Numero Uno!
What the? Do I have a big L tattooed on my forehead?
Mac - The secret is...
You have to make a comment BEFORE you announce the new post is up!
Doh!
Great post, Mac, thank you!
Oh dear, Mac...did I butt in too quickly?
I'll delete mine so you can be first. I think I've said enough for one day anyway :-)
Blessings,
Jen
mac,
Thanks for the Clarence Larkin stuff. The charts look very interesting!
We have been talking on and off about Oprah and all the new age junk she is pushing. I think this article is the best article I have read on the garbage she has been pushing for the last few years:
Oprah Shifts to the Dark Side
God Bless,
Harold
Oh dear, Mac...did I butt in too quickly?
Noooooooo, not at all! Hyde does this on purpose. He posts and waits for bit before he tells me just so I don't get in first.
Harold, I agree with you and Grumpy on Mark Blitz's report on the Cosmic signs & Feasts.
I emailed the link to my former pastor and I'll be mentioning it to my current Church tomorrow.
Grace thru Faith made some points on it-I don't know if you two have gone over those. Something about Damascus and Turkey that should happen 1st and if it could happen that quickly for all those dates to work out.
The one thing about it-we are soon to find out.
You'll never believe this. Remember last week we had a major discussion on Tithe? I had missed Church last Sunday and watched it today. Guess what? It was exactly on that very subject. Tithing.
Spiritual Maturity and how it ties into tithing and what God requires from us.
I had to laugh. How the Holy Spirit works is awesome.
(Joel has a new post up)
Lisa
Mac,
That is one of my favorite Pauline prayers, and one I like to pray for my family and friends. Ephesians is one of my favorite NT books. Colossians is right up there too.
To be filled up to all the fulness of God...what a thought!!!
Hyde/Mac
love your choice of scripture
Harold
sounds like the book you're reading is from someone who espouses replacement theology and given the time the book was written was likely amillenial so i'd be careful about it
breaking report on drudge or at least developing report-hilary talking to super delegates to see if she should step down! not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing
Israel to honor Al Gore
You've gotta see this one:
A retreat for World Leaders
I wonder if Oprah would be invited?
Jen, Shalom!
That is an excellent question! Be advised I'm going to be copying and pasting from multiple sources -- I don't have the experience to have these answers readily available. A lot of what I'll be posting comes from two answer pages on the "Catholic Answers" web site (Hail Mary, Conceived Without Sin, and Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.) I HIGHLY recommend these pages to everyone interested in biblical prophecy, as they detail how Mary fulfilled and completed a number of Old Testament prophecies.
Romans 3:23 says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." First John 1:8 adds, "If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him." What’s more, Mary herself said, ‘My soul rejoices in God my savior’ in Luke 1:47. She clearly understood herself to be a sinner if she admits to needing a savior.
Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was "saved." Indeed, Mary needed a savior! However, Mary was "saved" from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be "saved" completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression. Protestants tend to emphasize God’s "salvation" almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed. However, Sacred Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact (Jude 1:24-25).
On the surface, including Mary in Romans 3:23 sounds reasonable. But this way of thinking carried to its logical conclusion would list Jesus Christ in the company of sinners as well. No Christian can deny the plain texts of Scripture declaring Christ’s full humanity either. Thus, to take 1 John 1:8 in a strict, literal sense would apply "any man" to Jesus as well. So if we have one exception to "all have sinned", do we have others? Yes—millions of them.
Both Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:9 deal with personal rather than original sin. (Romans 5 deals with original sin.) Original sin is not something we do; it is something we’ve inherited. Romans chapter three deals with personal sin because it speaks of sins committed by the sinner. With this in mind, consider this: Has a baby in the womb or a child of two ever committed a personal sin? No. To sin a person has to know the act he is about to perform is sinful while freely engaging his will in carrying it out. Without the proper faculties to enable them to sin, children before the age of accountability and anyone who does not have the use of his intellect and will cannot sin. So, there are and have been millions of exceptions to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8.
We also have biblical proof that Mary was conceived without sin. When Gabriel greeted Mary, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!" The "Hail Mary, Conceived Without Sin" article goes into more detail about this, but simply put, the greeting in Greek (Kaire, Kekaritomene) is giving a new name to Mary: Kekaritomene. This word literally means "she who has been graced" in a completed sense. This verbal adjective, "graced," is not just describing a simple past action. Greek has another tense for that. The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being. "Full of grace" is Mary’s name. You and I sin, not because of grace, but because of a lack of grace, or a lack of our cooperation with grace, in our lives. This greeting of the angel is one clue into the unique character and calling of the Mother of God. Only Mary is given the name "full of grace" and in the perfect tense, indicating that this permanent state of Mary was completed.
Catholics also refer to Mary as "The Ark of the NEW Covenant." Just as G_D dwelt in the Ark, Jesus dwelt in Mary. Just as G_D required that the Ark to be without blemish, Mary was also to be without blemish. Luke draws many parallels between the Ark of the Old Testament and Mary. Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:
In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord" (Luke 1:39–45).
* Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided) are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.
* When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" Elizabeth uses almost the same words: "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke is telling us something — drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.
* When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
* When the Old Testament ark arrived — as when Mary arrived — they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.
* The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22).
As I said, I highly recommend that you read the two web pages I linked to earlier, as they go into much greater detail on Mary's fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Or, as St. Augustine wrote, "the Old Testament is the New concealed, but the New Testament is the Old revealed"
<><
Harold,Grumpy,
Here is another article to consider as you go over the Blood Moon senarios.
It gives details of what happened during the previous 2 Blood Red Moons.
Both Temple Mount Related.
Temple Blood Red Moons
jib,
Taking an amillennial view is one of the things I don't agree with Albert Barnes about. That being said, it in no way invalidates some of his other insights. I have yet to read a book where I agreed 100% with the author on everything.
I still have a lot to read in Albert's book. It is very heavy wading. :-(
His book has not changed my point of view as to what the next event will be in prophecy.
I still think we are waiting for a war to occur between Israel and Syria and its allies. This will fulfill Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83. This should soon be followed by Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38 and 39).
I am not sure where the rapture fits in there. I still believe in a pre-trib rapture, but there are some pretty strong arguments for pre-wrath.
Before I saw the Mark Blitz videos, I was thinking the tribulation may start in 2012 and end in 2019. 2012 would coincide with the Mayan and other calendars. I thought maybe next year would be good timing for Gog and Magog as it would give the Israelis 7 years to burn the weapons of Gog and Magog up to the midpoint of the tribulation. I didn't think they would be able to burn them beyond that as the A.C. would chase them into the wilderness.
However, after seeing Mark's videos, the 7 years of tribulation starting later this year makes a lot of sense.
Now, where does what Albert Barnes has to say fit into all of this?
As far as where we are currently in Revelation, I believe we are waiting for the seventh trumpet to sound (Revelation chapter 11), which I believe is the rapture.
I should say right off the bat that this is NOT Albert Barnes view at all. He is amillennial. I came to this conclusion on my own after reading some of his Revelation notes, and reading various other sources.
The historical information that Albert provided in his book, much of which is taken from Edward Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire" helped convince me that seal judgments 1 to 7 and trumpet judgments 1 to 6 have already occurred in the past. Now we all know that history repeats itself, so this is not to say that some of these judgments could not reoccur or are not still in effect.
Now before anybody jumps all over me, I have significant proof which I have gathered from different sources to back this claim up. I just need time to properly write it down and sum it up. This could take awhile as I keep buying more books to read instead of doing my homework. :-)
So...I probably shouldn't have let the cat out of the bag before I had my proof ready. Maybe we will get raptured first and I won't have to write it all down. :-)
In all seriousness, I am going to post my reasons for this point of view when I have them written down.
God Bless,
Harold
Hi lisa,
Thanks for the link. That looks pretty interesting.
God Bless,
Harold
Have your heard that when a Tarantula gets bothered they rub all the hair off of their abdomen?
That's how I feel when I read about all this Mary stuff.
If I were to let my nerves surface I would probably be bald right now.
But my lips are zipped.
Sorry Jim, I have not figured out why yet but it almost gives me a physical reaction.
Lisa
LISA!
You're killing me, woman!!!
Have your heard that when a Tarantula gets bothered they rub all the hair off of their abdomen?
If you only knew what a silly mood I've been in ALL day & reading that almost made me wet myself.
(My honest physical reaction was that I was laughing my hind end off as I was typing the last post.)
Laughter IS the best medicine!
My frustrations have now been released! Whew!!!
Lisa
lisa,
I have only scanned very briefly what Jim had to say, but I am with you.
Mary was a normal woman whom God chose to use in an extraordinary way. Period. She was not perfect and does not deserve to receive any special recognition from us.
Just as we as believers have been chosen by God to be the "elect". There is nothing special about any of us that makes us any more worthy of saving than anyone else. Why God chose us we will never know this side of heaven.
Sure we as believers made the decision to accept Jesus as our Savior, but if the Holy Spirit hadn't already moved in our hearts to prompt us to make that decision to accept His Son, we would be destined for Hell like all non-believers are. We have ZERO ability to save ourselves. We have ZERO power to even make a decision for Christ without the Holy Spirit prompting us. He chose us first, we didn't chose Him first. Salvation is all about God and nothing that we in any way earned or deserved.
I will get off my soap box now. :-)
God Bless,
Harold
lisa,
I just finished reading the Blood Red Moon article you posted a link to. That was very interesting!
Thanks,
Harold
Lisa and Harold, Shalom!
I've got no problems if you don't accept the Catholic view of Mary. I only ask that you read the two web pages I linked to, and tell me a) if the view there is scriptural (as in, the view is backed by scripture), and b) if not, where is the scripture that refutes it?
(I have no doubt that with your knowledge of scripture, this should be no biggie.)
<><
Mary: Saved from Birth
Catholicism asserts that Mary never sinned and, hence, was redeemed (saved) from the moment of her birth:
"By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long." Pg. 124, #493
"Espousing the divine will for salvation whole-heartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son..." Pg. 124, #494
"Mary is the most excellent fruit of redemption (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life." Pg. 128 #508 (See also Pg. 191, #722)
If you are wondering if this doctrine is taught in God's Word, it isn't. The Catechism admits that it is another church tradition:
"Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, 'full of grace' through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception." Pg. 123, #491
But the Bible identifies Jesus as the sinless One, not Mary:
"For he hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21
Aside from the Lord Jesus, the Bible is quite clear that nobody else has ever been sinless:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10
"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Romans 3:12
Notice, none of these verses say "all have sinned, except Mary."
"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin..." Galatians 3:22
Mary knew she needed a Savior
In Luke's gospel, Mary herself admits that she was a sinner. Otherwise she would never have concluded that she needed a Saviour:
"And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." Luke 1:46-47
Yet, the Catholic church demands that members worship Mary:
"The Church' s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." Pg. 253, #971
Did Jesus exalt Mary?
Here's how Jesus referred to His mother when Mary asked to see Him one day:
"Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matthew 12:48-50
Jesus did not say, "Usher in this blessed woman."Rather, He replied that anyone who obeys God' s Word is equal with Mary. Jesus refused to exalt her.
When Others Exalted Mary
When a woman came to Jesus and attempted to exalt Mary, look how the Lord responded:
"... a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28
Jesus announces that those who hear and obey the Word of God are blessed above Mary. Perhaps the Lord inserted these verses for those today who choose to ignore the Word of God so they can follow church traditions.
A Pattern
True to the pattern we have seen throughout this book, Jesus is again robbed of glory and honor that He alone deserves. Rather than recognizing Him as the only sinless One, Catholicism contradicts Scripture and insists that Mary was also sinless. Why?
Conclusion
Was Mary sinless from birth? Catholic tradition wants you to believe she was, but God' s Word says she wasn' t. Who will you believe?
"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Ecclesiastes 7:20
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12
Sara
I'm just letting everyone know that I have invited someone, who used to post at Joel's, to the cave. His name is Jim (2 Jims now) but he may post as Adopted. Please welcome him when he posts. Thanks.
Prime Minister Livni?
Kafir Dreams
I have only glanced at some of the posts written since last night...but I agree with others about this Mary stuff...it is a real turn off to read the catholic viewpoint on this and other things. It makes me feel ill.
Jim, I personally do no think it is a good idea to be posting stuff like this blog.
There must be Catholic blogs out there.
It's really creep stuff, if you aks me.
Donna,
Had you read more posts, you would have seen that Jim was responding, I believe, to a question specifically asked of him.
This is a place where brothers & sisters in CHRIST dwell & converse. Most have different Christian religions.
While I don't agree with Jim on catholic views, I do respect him.
Honestly though, when I see he's posting catholic things, I just don't read them, maybe you should do the same!
I certainly don't think advocating going to a different blog is the spirit in which we should be fellowshipping.
YSIC
(sorry, probably should have counted to ten first ;-) )
Well, I'd like to say good morning, everyone, but it doesn't seem to be all that good of a morning! I had planned to apologize for causing any alopecia overnight, but I guess I'll skip the humor and get right to the point.
Jim - Thank you for the time you took in sharing your views. I feel I better understand some things that I didn't before. I can't make the leaps that such beliefs require but I never felt that you were pushing your ideas over mine in this exchange.
Anyone who was offended by Jim's posts - please remember that I was the one who asked him to further explain the Mary issue. (I went back and checked the original posts to be sure I wasn't mis-remembering. I questioned something he said in response to jib and it went from there.)
I don't get the same visceral feeling about Catholic topics as others do, although I have plenty of experience with Catholics (my mom was Catholic into her 30s and my grandmother was Catholic until the last year of her life. There are many others in various family branches as well. And most amazing of all to me is the fact that a Catholic man in his 50s whom I knew only casually was the MOST comforting and SPIRITUALLY supportive person I talked with while I was dealing with the grief over my miscarriages. I often think he and Jim must be the same person. But that's an entirely different story...)
I do share many of the concerns that have been expressed about Catholic views, but I feel it only strengthens my belief when I understand why I don't believe something else. That was the point of my questions, not to give Jim an opportunity to hijack the blog (which I didn't sense he was doing.)
Alright, off my soapbox now. I'll wander off somewhere else for awhile.
In Christ's love,
Jen
Oops, sorry about that. I raced thru messages and did not realize Jim was responding to people's questions! My mistake!!
Also, I did not mean for Jim to go to a different blog, just for the catholic postings to go to a different blog.
I realize I can clickety-click and perhaps that is what I should do.
I just get frustrated that sound Biblical teachings are hard to come by for the average person.
People in general do, however, get bombarded by lots of false teachings...and it is disturbing to me.
Again though, I apologize to Jim and others as I did not realize Jim was responding to questions.
It does get emotional for me as I was raised Catholic and did not hear the true gospel message there.
Perhaps I should count to 100!
:)
Who is this "Sara" that posted as anonymous at 10:32 p.m. last night?? I was sound asleep at that time as I have to get up at 3:30 a.m. to get to work on time.
Shalom, all!
I have been reading and posting within this community for almost a year, shortly after seeing Joel Rosenberg on "Glenn Beck" and reading "Epicenter." During that time, I have tried to read the articles linked to or mentioned by people of this community, including those that deal with religious content and scriptural interpretation. I've done so both to gain an understanding of what drives my fellow seekers and to glean what spiritual truth G_D has granted these writers. I've done so despite the anti-Catholic bias and content inherent in many of these writers, some mildly, some not-so-mildly.
It was not my intent to bring division to this group; rather, it was a desire to show some of the people who have asked about the Catholic view of things what those views are and the scriptural support behind them. As someone who has stood by and watched all the blood and bile being vented over pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, single rapture, multiple rapture, and a host of other topics foreign to my Catholic faith, and as someone who has endevored to understand the reasons behind your beliefs, I have found my knowledge of Scripture and my faith in Christ Jesus have both grown tremendously. It was in that spirit that I offered the Catholic view of Mary having been preserved from Original Sin. In return, all I have asked is not that you believe, but that you read the pages I have linked to and tell me if you think the views are scriptural and if not, why not.
In other words, I am simply asking for the respect that the Baptists on the board show the Presbyterians, or the Methodists show the Foursquare Gospel believers.
These views and the scriptural support behind them may challenge you, some to the point of a visceral reaction. That is good. As Christians, we need to be (not just "are" but "need to be") challenged in our faith daily, lest we become spiritually flabby. It is this challenge that keeps us on our toes and strengthens us, not by defending our beliefs through our own intellect, but by relying on prayer and the Holy Spirit to guide us on the path that G_D knows is best for us. (And by giving us the opportunity to practice our Christian charity towards those who are just WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! :-)
You are all in my prayers. Shalom Aleichem.
Yours in Christ;
<><
Jim,
Please know that I'm sorry to see that you have been treated so disrespectfully. I would not want my daughter (who is Catholic) treated in such a manner.
I was in a hurry when I spouted off this morning (and everyone knows my temper) Yeah, still need a LOT of work on that! Oh, can we just call it passionate?
It's not true that I never read your Catholic comments - only those regarding Mary. I actually, at times, find your comments very useful in understanding where my daughter is coming from - so thank you!
Jim,
As you wish.
I was really going to try and keep quiet but if you really want me to go over the articles I will.
This may take me awhile since I'll go over them scripture by scripture.
But if I return with some conclusions that don't coincide with their views-I hope you can understand that it comes from what I honestly perceive to be the truth in scripture.
Lisa
Lisa, Shalom! You wrote:
But if I return with some conclusions that don't coincide with their views-I hope you can understand that it comes from what I honestly perceive to be the truth in scripture.
That is all I ask. If agreement here can't be reached on the pre-trib/post-trib question, I certainly couldn't expect agreement on an issue such as this.
<><
Anonymous Sara's post was very good.
Harold,
I certainly would like to see how you come up with the trumpets already sounding. Just the first trumpet alone is going to leave a third of the earth, trees, and green grass burned up. (That's a mighty big chunk of earth!) Trumpet two leaves one third of the sea as blood!
Sooooo,
How about the weather?
Here in Ohio, it is cloudy, windy & looks like rain. 80.4 F
In a speech celebrating the 60th Anniversary of Israel's statehood, Knesset Speaker Dalia Itzik said:
"The State of Israel is an extraordinary success story. It is a wonder by any historic standard. A miracle did not happen to us. We built this wonderful enterprise with our own hands. There are richer countries than Israel and certainly quieter ones, there are larger ones, but there is none like the state of Israel. [emphasis added]
So sad that even the Speaker of the Knesset does not understand, nor obviously read the statements in the Tenach (OT) regarding the return of the Jews to their Land as being a fulfillment of a promise of HaShem.
John
Bible Trivia game:
Heaven Trivia
Joel has a new post.
Well i guess we all have our touchy areas and mine happens to be with some of the Catholic teachings...obviously! :)
Hey, many of my very good friends are Catholics. My mother in law whom I love is a devout Catholic.
It's not them that I have a problem with, its the church teachings.
When it comes to mary and the saints I liken it to breaking the first commandment.
God does not want other gods placed before Him. He does not want us praying to other people. He is a jealous God.
I personally see RC teachings on Mary and the saints upsetting and am basing my viewpoint on what I believe to be sound Biblical teachings.
So that's really all there is to it.
I do apologize if I caused any sort of uproar about it!
Jim, I think Nate hit the bull's eye. I agree with what he said. I do value your contribution (as I do others) even if I disagree on many points.
But, Nate - drooling during service??
That is all I ask. If agreement here can't be reached on the pre-trib/post-trib question, I certainly couldn't expect agreement on an issue such as this.
Jim, you left some tribs out, but that's OK...we know it'll all pan out etc. I think I'm pinching your line here. I'll mail you a cheque (check).
Oooh, I'm glad to see a few more comments. I was thinking I was going to have to start yodeling or tap dancing a bit! OR, at the very least bake some cookies to fill the cave with the delicious aroma, to draw people back.
Um, Nate? You couldn't poke your head in when I was giving you a shout out? Thanks.
I dunno, some of these fire and brimstone type preachers would probably make me pee!
Nate, going over 150 makes it slow for the ones who have dial up.
I've heard Chuck and Jan Markell say the same thing. I believe in various US cities some Christians have been evicted by "Emergent" pastors and have had to fellowship in House churches. The danger there is having a good pastor to lead them. Certainly for me, the Internet IS providing the sort of fellowship I can't find elsewhere around here. Even Melbourne is experiencing the "Emerging" church and red letter Christian wave.
Kathy, I hear trumpets all the time. Could be my neighbours though! Noisy lot!
I've been thinking (yes I know that can be dangerous to one's health - all those little gray cells getting woken up all at once might be a bit traumatic, but....)
The whole business of the Emergent Church, Red Letter Christians, etc...if it pushes some people out of their comfort zone, so that God can get their attention - there's nothing quite like a little bit of "Christian love" that puts you out of the doors of your church to make you start asking God for help...
Maybe, just maybe, some of these people, who have been sitting comfortably in traditional, denominational churches, but who really should have left a while ago and sought out churches that really taught the whole counsel of scriptures, might now have no choice...
Just a thought. God can use all sorts of situations to get us to where we should be, even if we go kicking and screaming... (thinking of you Jen, with your 3 little ones...)
John
I'm thinking you could be right, John.
"Islam today is part of Europe. One should not see Islam as outside Europe. We already have an important presence of Islam and Muslims among our citizens," Mr Barroso said, adding that the inter-faith dialogue proved that the "preachers of a clash of civilisations are wrong."
EU Invokes Bible and Koran
Hi John and thanks for the shout-out :-) Speaking of shouting, kicking and screaming, let me just say that it's NOT the twos that are terrible...try threes! But there's also a whole lot more laughing going on around here these days, too. An elderly friend came over today to see the kids (they call her Nana) and she brought them birthday cards. They tore into them and Matt yelled, "Where's the money?" I was SO embarrassed!
Lauren has named herself Princess Lolly and she expects everyone to marry her (or at least dance with her while she sings the song from Sleeping Beauty) and Josh spends hours entertaining us with his stories of "great owls" and scary dinosaurs and sharks and bats. I'm sure he'll be the one with an imaginary friend.
I apologize if I go on about kid stuff too much. I get out of the house maybe once a week and I'm truly saturated with all things "children" for about 80% of my waking hours I, too, value this fellowship more than you'll ever know since it fills an empty spot I've had for a long time (since college) in terms of growing in my faith with the help of others and it also provides some of the only adult conversation I get on topics that I'm interested in. So thank you to Mac for keeping the cave open and to all the others here who keep the place thriving.
Along the lines of John's comment....I was pleasantly surprised last week when hubby asked me if I felt we should start looking into other churches in the area. We've both felt that our current church (Mennonite roots, but now a non-denom) is moving too much into the seeker-friendly realm. I noticed that one of the pastors (of the most progressive service) is reading a book called "Blue Like Jazz" which I recently read is associated with the emergent church movement. That was a big red flag for me, so I was thankful when hubby mentioned he felt it might be time to look around. He started by searching out the Presbys in our town, but he's open to other churchs as well. It's a major answer (or beginning of an answer) to prayer for me because I've been wanting to attend some other services as well and this will make it easier for me to do that (we figure we can try new places every other week while one of us stays at home with the kids and then attend our church on the following week as we want the kids to have a regular Sunday School program.)
So I see God moving in our own family to get us aligned with His word.
Blessings,
Jen
Well, here it is,
An Evangelical Manifesto
USA Today's article about it
I haven't read it yet, so I have no comment.
jen;
"We've both felt that our current church (Mennonite roots, but now a non-denom) is moving too much into the seeker-friendly realm. I noticed that one of the pastors (of the most progressive service) is reading a book called "Blue Like Jazz" which I recently read is associated with the emergent church movement."
I never thought that a Mennonite based church could move into a seeker realm. In our area we have many Mennonite, Amish and Brethren churches and they seem to be conservative in their beliefs ect.
I guess any church can slide into this kind of thinking, and you did say they were non-denom now. Most of the Mennonites that I have known are very service oriented and it would not be much of a change to take their focus off forwarding the Gospel to more of a social gospel thinking. Anyway it is sad to hear of any church forgetting their purpose of preaching the Gospel and being salt and light.
God Bless!
No Good Way to Stop a Nuclear Iran
Fishers of Men -
Charles Spurgeon
The preacher is compared to a fisherman. The fisherman’s vocation is a toilsome one; woe be to that minister who finds his calling to be otherwise. The fisherman must go forth in rough weathers, and at all hazards; if he should only fish in a calm sea he may often starve. So the Christian minister, whether men will receive the word with pleasure, or reject it with anger and wrath, must be ready to imperil reputation and risk comfort; yea, he must hate his own life also, or he is not worthy of the heavenly calling.
The fisherman’s is a rough occupation; no dainty fingers may come in contact with his nets. It is not a trade for gentlemen, but for rough, strong, fearless men, who can heave a rope, handle a tar-brush, or scour a deck. The ministry is not meant for your dainty souls who would go delicately through this world without a trial, an offense, an insult, or a sneer. Such work is meant for men who know how to do business on great waters, and can go abroad upon the sea, not fearing the spray or the waves. The fisherman’s calling, too, must be carried on perseveringly; it is not by one grand haul that a man makes his fortune; he must constantly cast forth his net. One sermon makes not a preacher; he who shall but now and then deliver himself of some carefully prepared oration, is no true minister of God. He must be instant in season and out of season; he must cast his net in all waters; he must in the morning be at his work, and in the evening he must not withhold his hand. To be a fisherman, a man must expect disappointments; he must often cast in the net and bring up nothing but weeds.
The minister of Christ must reckon upon being disappointed; and he must not be weary in well-doing for all his disappointments, but must in faith continue in prayer and labor, expecting that at the end he shall receive his reward.
From a sermon entitled "The Two Draughts Of Fishes," delivered April 6, 1862.
Nate, I'm wondering the same thing. I'm curious if this will cause further division among us. I haven't had any time to read it yet, though. I hope to get to it tomorrow (busy time right now). I did, however glance at the signers and noted that one Baptist minister only signed with his first name, Greg. Is he concerned about controversy and why?
I've already heard some discussion about this on the radio.
I'm offline for the day and will see you all tomorrow.
Mac
check out
Lighthouse Research
you might want to add it to your discernment links
so a question for all-
so if your church goes down the emergent pathway-irrelevant of your denominational underpinnings-what are you going to do. Most of these sites state that the emergent church is making vast inroads into nearly every denomination, some more than others granted. at what point do you leave one church and try for another church without said underpinnings? if your local church has not been infiltrated but the national group has, and I get the impression that most if not all have to a certain extent been infiltrated, do you still go there, give money there knowing that some of your money will be funding emergent programs that you can not and will not agree with? it's a dilemma. we haven't many choices where we are. likely our next best choice is a calvary chapel fellowship church which will send my folks, especially my dad, into orbit-or may be not. May be I'll present it as which is worse speaking in tongues or emergent church doctrine. (said with some humor and tongue in cheek for those of you who speak in tongues)
I understand what they are trying to say yet think the whole thing is going to back fire on Christians as a whole. I don't remember who was quoted but another evangelical says this manifesto is going to be interpreted by many both Christian and non to mean that Christians shouldn't speak out at all. What I think these signers fail to realize is what I pointed out on a previous post Christ engaged groups of wrong doers much differently than He approached individuals especially if the groups in question had some sort of authority. I'm not sure that they get that when we speak out both as an individuals and as a more organized group AGAINST behaviors that are condemned in scripture it really doesn't matter what your label is we will still be viewed as backward and wrong. Whether they go back to our roots or not when they condemn wrong-they will be vilified. period. I do agree however on principle that perhaps we haven't been the best stewards of the earth God has given us I don't think we have to buy into the green philosophy or global warming.
got to go to work now
catch you all later
For any interested in the blood moon theory:
If you haven't seen this yet, here is a commentary by Jack Kinsella.
Blood Moon 2015
Yet Another ''Sure Thing?''
In Defense of the Faith
Thursday, May 08, 2008
Jack Kinsella - Omega Letter Editor
My email boxes have been filling up with messages about the Blood Moon of 2015 and questions about a theory it signals the 2nd Coming of Christ. The 'Blood Moon' story has also made the rounds of our forums, some of whom must be getting some of the same emails that I am.
The premise is irresistible; a series of lunar and solar eclipses will occur during Passover and Succot (Feast of Tabernacles) seven years from now suggest a date for the Second Coming of Christ.
Mark Blitz, pastor of El Shaddai Ministries in Bonney Lake, Washington, notes that the only string of four consecutive blood moons that coincide with Passover in the spring and the Feast of Tabernacles will take place between 2014 and 2015 on the standard Gregorian calendar.
It then follows that the Second Coming of Christ will take place at the end of the Feast of Trumpets -- at the last trump, as it were. Blitz has put together a very compelling argument:
"The fact that it doesn't happen again in this century I think is very significant," Biltz explains. "So then I looked at last century, and, believe it or not, the last time that four blood red moons occurred together was in 1967 and 1968 tied to Jerusalem recaptured by Israel."
Moreover, according to a WND report, Blitz noted a pattern of blood moon events that took place in 1948, two others in 1949 and 1950 took place on Passover and Succot.
According to Blitz (I haven't done the research myself) the last time that the astronomical phenomenon known as 'tetrads' had taken place prior to 1948 was back in the 14th century, but "none of those fell on Passover or Succot," he said.
Pastor Blitz' research makes a compelling case, as I noted earlier:
"You have the religious year beginning with the total solar eclipse, two weeks later a total lunar eclipse on Passover, and then the civil year beginning with the solar eclipse followed two weeks later by another total blood red moon on the Feast of Succoth all in 2015."
It was so compelling that J.R. Church of 'Prophecy in the News' is convinced:
"If you think that this is a coincidence, I want you to know that it's time! There are no more of these for the rest of the century."
I'm somewhat less convinced. Call me a hopeful skeptic.
WND interviewed Jim Bramlett, a former VP at CBN and author of a regular email newsletter and Hal Lindsey for the column.
Bramlett was very excited about it. After watching a video of Blitz' interview, Bramlett enthused:
"I have just watched the program two times and do not think I have ever been more encouraged or excited about the soon return of the Lord!"
Hal, not so much. WND quoted Hal's comments as follows:
"In my 50-something years of studying prophecy, to me the greatest indication of the time of Christ's return is based around the general things of prophecies coming together in the same time frame . . . I see the whole sweep and panorama spinning together in a precise scenario."
What Hal is referring to is the Big Picture -- the one Bible prophecy actually paints.
I talked with Hal about it the day after he spoke with WND. Hal was blindsided by the interview; unlike Bramlett, he hadn't heard of Mark Blitz or his research.
But he and I had discussed the whole theory tying the return of Christ to the Feast of Tabernacles many times over the years. On the surface, this does sound a lot like just another 'sure-thing' -- like Edgar Whisenant's "88 Reasons Why Christ Must Come in 1988" and Harold Camping's "1994".
The Apostle Peter wrote: "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (2nd Peter 3:3-4)
I've even had that verse thrown at me in debates with date-setters who knew for sure they'd calculated the date of the Rapture as the last day of this year's Succot or the start of Yom Kippur.
But disagreeing is not 'scoffing' and I admit I disagree entirely on principle -- this is one of the most convincing arguments I've yet run across -- assuming the research is accurate.
If Blitz' calculations are correct and the 2nd Coming will be during the Blood Moon Succot of 2015, then that would mean a Pre-Trib Rapture would have to occur at least seven years earlier.
Assuming the theory that the Rapture and 2nd Coming are symbolically linked to the Last Trump (Succot) and Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) is correct, the Rapture MUST take place no later than the conclusion of this year's Feast of Tabernacles.
(The Second Coming of Christ takes place at the conclusion of the Tribulation during a blood moon -- "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." [Joel 2:31])
I confess I haven't much of an argument to rebut it, and frankly, I'm tempted to think that maybe this time, somebody has finally figured it out.
But no matter how hard I try, I cannot make it past the Scripture that says: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
I've tried to parse that verse and find a way to justify some argument that will nullify its meaning. Maybe no man knew then -- but what about now? I can't get there from here.
After all, these aren't the words of an Apostle under Divine Inspiration concerning the 2nd Coming of the Lord. These are the Words of Jesus Christ concerning His own coming -- if He isn't THE final Authoritative Word on the subject, then there isn't one.
I admit that I don't know if Blitz is right. I didn't know if Whisenant was right until the last trump of 1988, or if Camping was right until the last trump signaled the conclusion of the 1994 Succot celebration.
Every year, somebody sends me their calculations proving that this year's Succot is The Last Trump and I don't know if they are right until after it's sounded and I am still here.
So I don't know if Blitz is right, but what I DO know keeps me from going off the deep end with them.
I know that when it comes to setting dates, Jesus has been right every time.
God Bless!
Beth called yesterday afternoon. They just got the latest report on Geoff's cancer markers.
For the first time in 3 years, they went DOWN-- from 85 to 71. Geoff said his emotions knew
the whole gaunlet wondering at first if they had given him someone elses till it really sank in.
We are so blessed to worship a God who answers and honors our prayers. Praise His Holy Name.
Gore Used Fictional Video to Illustrate ‘Inconvenient Truth’
Praise God, Lori.
Shalom, all!
Wow. I've just been browsing througn the "Lighthouse Trails Research Project" web site, and all I can say is, "Wow."
Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I truly don't know where to begin. It seems as if this group is totally rejecting anything tainted with the description "contemplative", without looking at any subtlety or nuance of use or meaning. I certainly reject the statement by the group on their home page that, "The premise of contemplative spirituality is pantheistic (God is all) and panentheistic (God is in all)." I particularly reject this statement based on their list of "Christian Mystics of the Past". To lump St. Catherine of Siena and St. John of the Cross together with Meister Eckhart shows a true lack of understanding of their writings. Meister Eckhart was charged with and found guilty of heresy for his teachings and writings about contemplative prayer, and while the pantheists may say that he "...was one of the greatest of Christian mystics," I think being found guilty of heresy kinda rules that out. (The jury is still out on Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.)
I think when considering this we need to consider the word "heresy". As I heard it defined years ago, a heresy is a teaching that emphasizes a truth out of balance with other truths. We can agree as Christians that Christ was both "True God and True Man", what is called the Hypostatic Union of divine and mortal nature. You can (as some have in the past) emphasize Jesus' human nature, pointing out that Jesus was like us in ALL things (except sin.) If, however, you start emphasizing His human nature to the point where you start saying that Jesus was not fully divine, but that G_D created Jesus as a divine person, then you've stepped over the boundaries. You've emphasized a truth (Jesus' human nature) out of balance with another truth (Jesus' divine nature) -- in this example, into the heresy of Arianism.
In like manner, you cannot define "contemplative spirituality" in strictly pantheistic or panentheistic terms. There is one particular heresy that you need to consider: Quietism. It's a heresy that arose in the mid-to-late 1600s, and its principle errors are that it "Denies the necessity of human activity in contemplation and sanctification. Asserts that the highest spirituality is attained when the mind and will are completely inactive; any sort of attachment to a divine image and all external forms of worship are hindrances to union with God." QUIETISM
Quietism is a caricature of genuine mysticism as taught by Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. While they also preached detachment from the senses in the highest levels of mystical prayer and a simple, loving union with God that didn't depend on active effort, they also emphasized "corporal mortification" and active prayer. ("Corporal mortification" refers to giving up simple pleasures, such a candy or television, as a sacrifice to bring you closer to G_D.)
When I read about some of the "contemplative terms", I can see elements of Quietism in several of the practices. But I also see good and valid spiritual exercises being marked as evil because they contain some element of contemplation. For example, "Lectio Divina" is where you take a line of Scripture and spend fifteen minutes or so simply thinking about ("contemplating") that one line and how it relates to your life. Heaven forbid that we should take any part of Scripture and consider how it relates to our lives!
What I find dangerous in this group's philosophy is this sense of danger involved with any type of contemplation, including contemplation of Scripture. It is theology out of balance. It's thinking like this that gives us Emergent Churches (because ANY type of firm belief is dangerous to your union with G_D), or hypocritical churches where there is such emphasis on "Once Saved Always Saved" that the people do not see a need to apply the messages of the Gospel to their everyday lives -- there is no need to, because they've been saved.
In other words, proceed with caution.
<><
Lori, Shalom! That's great news about Geoff! I'll keep praying for him and his family, and offering my thanks for this sign of hope.
<><
Violence rekindles fears of Lebanese civil war
Joel has a new post up, put up at 10:45 AM, about "60 Ways to Bless Israel at 60"
<><
Jim, I recall a certain Lectio Divina teacher actually suggesting that the words are not important as much as the feeling of the verses. This may well be an aberrant form of it but it is being practised this way by some. Wiki covers this subject quite well, I think:
The principles of Lectio Divina were expressed around the year 220 AD by Origen. He affirmed that to read the Bible profitably it is necessary to do so with attention, constancy and prayer. Origen also emphasized the value of reading scripture with attention to possible different levels of meaning.…. As long as those different levels of meaning do not depart from the whole meaning of scripture.
I think contemplation should be just that, contemplation – where you engage your mind in prayer and thought over a matter or scripture verse. When I was doing my martial art, we were taught meditation. But we were asked to actually practise active thinking and listening. The exercise was designed to increase awareness beyond our average daily level. We even engaged in concentration tasks where we would try to recall small details about an event or what items were in another room.
However, when I began to study New Age ideas, I found the opposite was taught. One had to empty the mind. In fact, the first instruction I got was from some Episcopal and Catholic priests who studied under Japanese Zen teachers. Their method was to just think about breathing or count breaths to try to disengage the thinking process. After some years of doing that, I DID get some experiences that I won’t share here. Suffice to say that I do not recommend this method as it IS dangerous. Empty your mind and it will fill with something. Check out the New Age and see the loonies for confirmation of that.
Unfortunately, I think the New Age proponents have hijacked the real meaning of meditation and contemplation. When you meditate on something, you think about it, not go into catalepsy. I would say that some discernment folk lump everything into a bucket and throw out the baby with the bathwater. These people can get legalistic and negative, unfortunately. For example, Crossroad rips into C S Lewis and his Narnian books and I totally disagree with them. But they DO keep track of other areas of - what I think is - legitimate concern. I think we need the discernment ministries. However, I think we should keep our hearts and minds wide open, along with the Bible.
I don’t think fundamentalism is causing the “Emergent” phenomenon, nor the OSAS doctrine. This has been happening since the early church – nothing new here. Gnosticism was creeping into the church in Paul’s days. Gnosticism IS a form of the New Age and is becoming part of the Emergent church evolution. The Emergent church leaders are anxious to find any reason to depart from scriptural Truth (IMO) because it grants them freedom to do as they will.
SECTARIAN CLASHES ESCALATE IN LEBANON
New civil war breaking out?
BEIRUT (AFP) - Clashes between government supporters and the opposition escalated in Lebanon on Thursday, with gunfights in several parts of the country, roads blocked and the international airport virtually shut down.
Lebanon’s highest Sunni religious authority, Grand Mufti Rashid Qabbani, lashed out at the "armed gangs of outlaws" and call on Hizballah leadership to immediately withdraw them from Sunni neighbourhoods and warning that Lebanon’s Sunnis “had had enough”. He also pointed the finger at Iran as having a hand in today’s violence.
Hezbollah blamed the pro-Western democratically elected government for the Hezbollah rioting.
Reports are available at Naharnet.com, but the site feels like it's bogged down slow.
<><
BTW, Jib, if there was a Calvary Chapel within reach of me, I'd probably attend it. I think Chuck Smith has a balanced view on the Gifts of the Spirit. I am aware that some CCs are starting to depart from Chuck's leadership, howver.
Survey: 36% of bee hives lost in U.S.
Remind me again how this land-for-peace thing is supposed to work...
PA anti-terror units running scared
Hi GT,
Yes, it's kinda funny to think of going from Mennonite to emergent, but there's been a 50-year nondenom phase in between and I can't call them emergent or really backsliden yet. The gospel is still presented each Sunday (at least at the service we attend) and I haven't detected any departure from the full teaching of the gospel, but the groundwork I think is being laid...the new addition that includes a coffee shop open to the public, complete with kids' playland, the more progressive service I mentioned (I checked that pastor's blog today and found that he's now reading a book by MacLaren :-{ and the recent departure of the Sr. pastor. Alot of open spaces left that can be quickly filled with the wrong spirit. What's the verse about exorcising a demon, but leaving the house empty so that another one moves in? And like jib said, the choices are getting limited.
If you want to see how/why they left their Mennonite heritage, read this.
Nana, the lady I mentioned earlier, was one of the founding members, along with her husband Irv. She told me that they had to hide their TV anytime someone from church came to visit because that was taboo (the article mentions that the splinter group was initially called the TV Mennonites!) It also mentions that the splinter group wanted to read the Bible and apply it to their daily lives, not just treat it like a holy book too mysterious to read or understand. I can't imagine being raised with that kind of thinking regarding the Scriptures. Today, I think the opposite happens alot. People use the Bible regularly, but often as a tool to prove their view or out of context in order to support a point. Like Mac said, it would be prudent if everyone got back to being Bereans and spent more time seeking discernment from Holy Spirit. But that takes time, committment and ugh, maybe some things to deal with that aren't comfortable. And we know how society feels about time, committment and comfort these days!
Blessings,
Jen
jen;
The Mennonite churches in our area are split also. We have the strict Mennonite, that you would hardly be able to tell apart from old order Amish. Then we have the reformed (don't know if thats the right term) which are like other evangelical churches. The Mennonites I have known however, did put a great deal of emphasis on obedience and service. So much so that they are accused of salvation by Grace plus works. So I can see how it would be hard for some to not get involved in a social gospel type of thinking(that service to the community and the world becomes more important than bringing people to the simple truth of the Gospel). Don't get me wrong, I admire greatly their dedication to service, but when it becomes a condition of salvation it obviously becomes a salvation by works. And yes, I remember the discussions we all had on works and grace before. LOL
God Bless!
Pray that aid gets to these people quickly.
Grim fight for survival after Burma cyclone
I would probably attend a calvary chapel were there one around where I live, too.
36% of the bees are gone...wow.
Lots seems to be going on.
GT your post at 11:27 was very much appreciated! Think I will print it out now and read.
LOri, great Goeff is doing better.
Jim, thank you for being so respectful and polite in spite of the expressed RCC concerns.
Thank you Nate for all your links.
I appreciate you all so much..
Jen interesting stuff about all the Mennonites...I will try to read these posts asap.
Jeri your family continues to be in our prayers.
Oh God, please continue to keep us all close to You and continue to teach us Your ways in these confusing times. May others see Your shining light though us. We are here for you to use in any way that You would like. We offer ourselves up as living sacrifices for You. We thank You for all things, in Jesus name, amen.
I'm now up for air!
Jim, I've responded to your request on my blog page.(Long post)
Hail Mary & Ark of the New Covenant
Lisa
Leave it to me, I do it everytime.
Hail Mary one more time
Interesting article about the UN and crisis situation in Myanmar...
Anyone else know about this 'policy' or when it has been used before?
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/07/europe/cyclone.php
"France urges UN to force cyclone aid on Myanmar"
Blessings,
Jen
New Scientist Brings up Old Arguments
“In the wilderness He fed you manna which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do good for you in the end.
“Otherwise, you may say in your heart, ‘My power and the strength of my hand made me this wealth.’
Deut 8:16,17
That's what Knesset Speaker Dalia Itzik said about Israel now in our time which Boatman posted.
What happened to the Fear of the Lord?
Read the rest of Deut 8. He basically says He's going to kill them for this.
Yikes, I wouldn't want to be in the presense of God when he was listening to that one. I can only imagine how His righteous anger would begin to boil over.
Do you think since He has turned His face from Israel that recent comment would slide and not merit punishment in our time?
Do you consider the war of Gog and Magog to be a blessing to Israel and the Jewish nation in a way?
We know it will be a sign of His renewed presense and attention to that nation yet it will also be a time of their testing and judgment.
Maybe this will "Bring it On!"
Lisa
Joe VanKouvering has another series of interesting videos on his site.
Airdate 03-18-08: IPC '08 - Convocation - Part 1
Lisa, left a short response to your posting at your blog.
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Mac, Shalom!
I wanted to say that I agree completely with your posting of 3:00 PM. I also want to clarify that I don't think fundamentalism is "causing" Emergent theology (as in "pushing the button will cause the bomb to explode"); rather, that most people generally look for something to be against rather than something to be for. Emergent theology allows people to be against fundamentalism while still calling themselves "Christian."
<><
Shalom, all!
This is a Youtube video of a beautiful Arabic (Lebanese) hymn.
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TEACHING ROCKET SCIENCE
May 6, 2008 -- United Nations officials say they're shocked - shocked! - to learn that the headmaster at one of their top prep schools in Gaza was also the chief rocket-maker for Islamic Jihad.
Thankfully, Awad al-Qiq, for the past eight years a science teacher at schools run by the UN's Relief and Works Agency, won't be assembling any more weapons: An Israeli airstrike last week took out his bomb-making operation - plus him.
Brewing Confrontation in Lebanon
Morning, Jim!
I, too, was SHOCKED to read about the teacher-turned-rocket scientist ;-) However, I only now learned through your post that he was indeed a science teacher. That opens up another line of investigation in my mind...how many of his science-class students may have also learned his skills under the guise of a UN-funded education program?
Blessings,
Jen
I had some thoughts about the time line of the AofD with the blood moon scenario. If God told the Jews to pray that your flight not take place during the winter, do you think God knew that his people figured it all out as to when Satan would declare himself to be God and also the 2nd coming of Christ? I'm thinking also they are able to determine the start of the Tribulation period because their eyes were finally opened to the truth. With that said, if we take into consideration the blood moon scenario, then there will have to be a lot of stuff going on this summer and fall. Isaiah 17, war of Gog of Magog, the world government, and the application process for the grave diggers, and some kind of temple for sacrifices. Perhaps it will be a makeshift temporary one until they finish building the actual one to be used. I can almost hear the footsteps of the Antichrist. I'm also wondering why God said to pray that it not be in the winter time when in fact He knows the exact timing of the AofD?? Wow, lots to ponder! The grave diggers will be busy all throughout the tribulation up to the end of 2015??? I don't want to date set, but it looks to me that if all this stuff starts to happen, October, November and first part of December would be a great time for the Rapture to occur. I just had to think out loud here, thanks.
-Jec
You know this is really scary:FYI
Not only does is deceive these people into receiving a false sprit but it discourages any Christian from receiving the infilling & spiritual gifts from the true Holy Spirit. Any logical thinker in their right mind would be say forget it. Why take a chance?
Look at the DECEPTION. How much of this can we stand watching? Oprah and this at the same time!!!Not to mention everything else.
This is REALLY REALLY SICK!
Lisa
MOST "CONTAGIOUS" ANOINTING - Florida - WARNING!
-Andrew Strom.
Todd Bentley has declared that his Florida anointing is the most
"contagious" that he has ever imparted to people. (In other words,
the most easily transferable). And indeed this seems to be the
case. It is spreading rapidly throughout the world.
But what exactly is this anointing? One observer of the Florida
revival notes: "Todd Bentley constantly manifests his "anointing"
by shaking his head back and forth, and by his body physically
shaking. These manifestations also happen frequently in those
who he imparts to. He will even wave his arms over the audience,
shouting, "Fire! Fire! Fire!" and then people in the audience will
start manifesting. Some appear to be convulsing, and some even
as if they are being thrashed by a spirit."
In a CBN News interview, Todd stated: "Our focus here in Florida
every night is I lay hands on every single person who comes -
whether it's 5,000, 10,000 - And I'm praying every night, 'God, give
it away, give it away, give it away.' And that's the focus here: Impartation."
And indeed there are more and more reports of this anointing being
transmitted from Florida to other states and nations across the globe.
As we have already seen, a report from England tells of a preacher
who brought Todd's anointing back from Florida and now it is
manifesting in his UK meetings: "Fire, a burning sensation, was
felt all over people's bodies... There were outbursts of joy, drunken-
ness and spontaneous healings throughout the meeting."
A man from Clearwater, Florida says that a number of people from
his fellowship have attended the revival and then brought the
'anointing' back with them. Here is what he personally saw:
"These are the effects that I have witnessed on people who have
attended this movement and either have had hands laid on them or
claim to have been imparted with "the spirit":
-They come back with this kind of childlike drunken stupor.
-Descriptions of a burning sensation either in their veins, heads or
stomachs.
-Descriptions of being washed back and forth like the waves in the ocean;
-Dancing about like drunk...
-Inappropriate yelling and screaming like they're at a football game;
-Young men whistling over and over and holding their heads and
claiming that they "feel the Holy Spirit about to split them in two";
-One young man's back two teeth turned completely to some
metallic finish.
-People with their eyes rolled in the back of their heads and weaving
around like they're lost.
-Women just gyrating and pulsating like they're being ravaged from
behind from some unseen force.
-Drunken uncontrollable laughter in the middle of a solemn prayer time…
-People being "slain in the spirit"... just falling down and being
unable to move (like something's holding them down)..."
Another eyewitness from the USA writes:
"A friend of mine invited me to a church where the ministry team
brought back a "Fire" from the Lakeland revival… The pastor's wife
was moderating, but she could not complete her sentences
because she was 'drunk in the Spirit.' She imitated the type of
sounds I read in your blog. I saw people breaking out into
uncontrollable laughter. I came with my Bible to receive a word…
There was no teaching or preaching. Just testimonies. They talked
about their experience in Lakeland... Where was the word? I did
not find any. I also heard a sound BAM and then I saw someone
being slain in the spirit."
A Spirit-filled pastor that I know from the UK who has been following
Todd Bentley's ministry closely for some years wrote to me about
what he himself has observed since the year 2000:
"My difficulty with Todd Bentley's ministry is not whether he has
recently covered himself with tattoos or pierced himself silly, but
the SOURCE of his power. He keeps changing his position on this.
Sometimes he says it's the Holy Spirit and a lot of the time it's his angels…
"Many have said that they believe that Florida is a 'mixture'.
Personally, I do not believe 'mixture' is involved. I believe these
deceiving spirits have hi-jacked Todd's ministry… Either the healings
are of God or they are not. Which is it?
"People can be healed in spiritualist churches. I have witnessed,
close-up, first hand, people being instantly healed by mediums
and faith healers. I have also seen people healed by the power of
the Holy Spirit. To begin with there is no discernible difference.
However the counterfeit healings soon begin to either go wrong or
something far worse comes upon the person.
"When God heals someone - He adds 'no sorrow.'
"I know Todd started off OK - I was there in his early meetings…
In September 2000 I stood in front of Todd and gave him the
warning that God gave me for him. "Beware, the leaven of the
Pharisees, lest an angelic leaven enters your ministry."
"One month later, according to Todd's own account, at a meeting
in Grants Pass Oregon, Cal Pierce walked in with Branham's
'Healing Revival' angel in tow, Todd saw and accepted this spirit
without reservation. His 'angels' have been with him ever since.
"I have written to Todd on numerous occasions and reminded him
of God's warning, alas to no avail.
"When Todd Bentley conducted a healing meeting in a large
charismatic church here in England in 2005, he laid hands on
many people who were apparently healed. I know of at least one
instance where a pastor's wife with cancer was prayed for by Todd.
Soon afterwards she heard voices in her head telling her to 'drown
herself just like her father did'. The poor woman ended up in a
mental hospital, I believe she still has the cancer.
"No-one is following up or keeping records of what happens to
people who have hands laid on them by Todd or others like him.
"I have kept records as far as I can, concerning this particular
church. Over a relatively short period, there has been a dramatic
increase in premature deaths, cancers, marriage break-ups,
sickness and disease amongst the congregation where the
leadership have allowed this type of ministry into their church.
Many people left the church in fear.
"These are the consequences of following this type of 'ministry'
which no-one is either aware of, or wants to address. I know, I have
visited the people in hospital and attended one of the funerals…"
[END QUOTE]
Meanwhile we find a number of prominent leaders beginning to
declare that this will be one of the greatest revival movements in
history. Some even see it as the beginning of a "new awakening".
Bob Jones declared that "This move will be a global move, traveling
with signs and wonders all over the world! The third wave is here!"
As this 'anointing' spreads worldwide, I believe there are some
serious questions that we need to ask ourselves:
Isn't it possible, with all the dubious 'anointings' and angels and
manifestations associated with Bentley's ministry, that what we
are really seeing is a giant 'counterfeit' revival? Isn't it possible
that if it continues to grow at the present rate, that it may literally
become one of the great "delusions" of the Last Days - a great
deception that has the power to actually deceive, if possible, the
very elect?
These are very serious questions - but I believe they must be
asked - because this 'anointing' is already beginning to circle the globe.
If you have been to a meeting where someone has brought the "fire"
back from Florida, please write and tell me what you saw. I am
collecting accounts from people about this.
Send any emails or feedback to- prophetic@revivalschool.com
URGENT - PLEASE PASS this EMAIL ON!
Our website- http://www.revivalschool.com
God bless you all.
Andrew Strom.
Jim
Sorry I caught something in my last reply to you on my blog.
I said that a priest had mentioned that kaire’ in the Greek, means ‘be joyful’but it was actually Pope Benedict XVI.
Lent & Beyond
It’s a shame about Todd Bentley. I watched a video of him the other day where he talked to a group of people at some meeting and he was getting things wrong about them. Embarrassing! He reminded me of Benny Hinn although, to be fair, I know nothing about Bentley. It is this sort of thing that casts a dark cloud over the reality of healing by Faith.
I have a vivid memory of my baby years. I can remember when I was back in Italy, three plus years old and my mother put me and my younger brother in a pusher to travel for miles to find a healer. My younger brother had big ugly boils and his head was covered in puss. None of the doctors had any solution. I remember the boils well! The healer was a little old lady who prayed a lot and worked in the fields. Mum had to wait for hours for this lady to return. This lady prayed for my brother and laid her hands on his head. Within a matter of days the boils disappeared and the docs couldn’t believe it. I witnessed my first miracle at three and witnessed my first act of Faith on my mother’s part. Admittedly, she was pretty desperate at the time. Sometimes it works like that.
I just read Andrew Storm's main page. His main interest is in Revivals.
Since he studies them alot I figured he would know something about Todd Bentley.
In his own personal opinion he thinks there is a seperating going on right now and there will be an anointing of Christians called out to be the Bride of Christ.
This Bride will preach in the street so to speak and come out of all the denominations. They won't have a main "church" but be unified in the preaching and glorifying of Christ. They will have gifts in the 5 fold ministry.
I see nothing about Gog/Magog,Rapture, or Israel in his theory. The focus is really just on this Revival and not the other things going on in the Tribulaiton. Alot on dreams and visions about it. He must be pre-wrath since the Bride eventually gets banged up and the remaining saved at the end.
I think his focus was narrow but an interesting thought.
Lisa
Jen, I think you would like to read this one.
Protection from Deception
Lisa
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Mohammed spoke with an angel and he wrote the "koran".
Joseph Smith spoke with an angel and he wrote the "book of mormon" ect.
New agers speak with angels and spirit guides (some calling themselves Jesus) and we get "a course in miracles" ect, ect.
Then their is Todd Bentley, is there a pattern here???
And this is only a partial list...
We could very well be (I STRONGLY believe so) in the age of deception. Can anyone imagine it getting worse . God says it will get worse. That is why Jesus says multiple times "do not be deceived"
as you see the time approaching. And Jesus didn't waste words, so it must be "extremely" important to not be deceived.
God Bless!
Hi Lisa,
Thanks for finding that link. I read the first section and it gives some really good pointers about identifying the difference between the Holy Spirit and counterfeit spirits. The author makes a good case about the danger of "mixture" and how even Godly, Spirit-filled believers can get involved with both.
Lately I feel like I'm in one of those "choose your own ending" books where you get to the bottom of a page and have to make a choice: "If you want to open the door and see what's inside, turn to page 72. If you want to turn around and run away, turn to page 114." I don't want to be misled so I end up not making any choice or try to make both decisions and keep my options open so when I do discern the wrong choice, I can still go back and follow the right one. But that requires ALOT of post-it notes and open tabs on the computer!
I agree with GT that we're in a thick fog right now and most people either have no clue or don't have the desire to wade through it. Some days, I feel as if my spiritual journey is like breathing with emphesyma...a literal struggle to get a full breath. I absolutely can't wait until we don't have this pollution to contend with! Can you imagine how amazingly sweet life will be once everything corrupted is removed?
BTW, did my most recent message (from earlier today) come through on your blog? I had trouble posting it, so I'm not sure it ever made it to you.
Blessings,
Jen
Hi everyone! I haven't even tried to read the comments yet but I will as soon as I post this. I have been gone for a few days and managed to leave home without my laptop (don't like it anyway). My granddaughter is getting married on June 15th and we have been scurrying to get all the necessary things to doll up and pretend. At my age, it takes a lot more stuff to accomplish the job. As soon as I get my flash eyelashes, hair colored and my new nails on, people will see the real me!
Hope you all stayed safe and secure. I guess some terrible storms went through in some of the areas last night but we were safely taken through them while we shopped.
JIB, got your message and I am so sorry I wasn't here to respond. Thank you for your prayers and concern.
We were in a huge mall in Houston and just having a ball. Feet are tired but I did get to visit with some wonderful christians while shopping.
Might not surprise you to know that everyone is feeling a kind of blink in their spirits and don't know what it means. As we were all talking and sharing what our faith was and is, the subject of laying stores aside for some reason came up and everyone started talking at the same time. Now know this, I didn't know any of them before we started talking in the mall. I tell you, GOD IS DOING SOMETHING BIG. And we are in the middle of a spiritual battle of some kind.
JIM Carroll, I met a woman there whose last name is Carroll and she is originally from Iowa. Her parents lived on anIowa State University testing farm and her father was in research there. I asked her if she had ever known of a Dr. Carroll (because of the same last name) and she said she didn't but her folks might have. Anyway, I thought it rather interesting that of all the people there I would meet someone with you last name. She never married. Teaches at the U of T in Houston. Serves on the board at one of the major oil companies.
Anyway, I guess it is good to get home again and sleep in my own bed but the accommodations there were not bad either. I will check in later, I have a lot of reading to catch up with.
Grany
DON'T PANIC!
(Notice the large, friendly letters?)
I'm starting this message out this way because of some browsing I was doing trying to find out more about the situation in Lebanon. I've been trying to see how this situation could develop in the period between May 10 and June 2 (the beginning of the 60th year of Israel and the end of the 40th year of the Unification of Jerusalem). Suddenly, I noticed this news link at the bottom of one of the pages I was viewing: The case for invading Myanmar.
Suddenly, it all came together: Hezbullah takes over Lebanon. While this is happening, the US, with the blessing and approval of the UN, does an "incursion" into Myanmar. (It's not an invasion, which would be a hostile takeover; it's an incursion to ensure the people of Myanmar get the food and aid that they need an that their government has been "misplacing"; and if it should result in the leaders of the junta leaving the country on a permanent vacation, then all the better.) However, incursions take resources, resources that cannot be used elsewhere. Russia and China are allies of Myanmar. Russia is a supporter of Syria, which supports Hezbullah which is taking over Lebanon. A UN incursion can't take place without Russia and China's approval. If this incursion is approved, it means the US probably won't have the resources needed to effect any changes in Lebanon. There simply won't be the resources available to spare for any further action in the Middle East. If Hezbullah succeeds in taking over Lebanon, how much longer before Gog-Magog?
I think I'm going to be keeping my eye on Myanmar...
Grany, glad to see you back!
<><
HI Everybody,
I haven't been posting but I have been trying to keep up with the reading the comments and the links.
Just wanted to tell EVERYONE that you all are like family to me.
I noticed a few folks aren't posting as much and I am hoping I haven't said something in my last round of post to cause any problems. I love everyone and believe we can still fellowship even if we have a difference of opinion.
I believe EVERYONE that was and has been posting had contributed greatly to the Cave.
Okay now I will go find a rock to sit on.
In His Love and looking up
Debbie
Obama Needs a History Lesson
Debbie, I'm not offended, just tired! I have been lurking every few days and trying to get in as much sleep as possible.
You all have been posting some interesting articles.
I'm especially interested in what Strome had to say. A fried of mine who lives in Va beach called to ask if I heard about the healing revival going on in Orlando. I hadn't. Apparently, it started in April and so many are getting saved and healed, they've continued it. They're using a stadium. I think the name of the church is Ignited Church, or something similiar. Has anyone here heard about this? It's only 2 1/2 hours away, I wonder if it's worth a trip to check it out.
Here's their website Ignited Church
Revised Prayer for Israel
As we celebrate 60th anniversary, Uri Orbach offers revised version of Prayer for State of Israel
Uri Orbach Published: 05.07.08, 22:07 / Israel Opinion
Our Father in Heaven, Rock and Redeemer of Israel, bless the State of Israel, the first manifestation of the approach of our redemption. Shield it from its own ministers, leaders, advisors, contractors, merchants, celebrities, beggars, journalists, and bureaucrats, and bestow Your light and truth upon its statesmen, rabbis, judges, and intellectuals, and grace them with Your good counsel.
Strengthen the hands of those who defend our holy land, grant them deliverance from indifference, grumbling, draft-dodging, and insubordination, save them from blatantly illegal orders and elusive legal orders, fill their hearts with dedication, responsibility, and perseverance, and adorn them in a mantle of victory.
Salvage your nation, the people of Israel, from any kind of pettiness, self-pity, exaggerated satisfaction, folly, and apathy, and from any harm, slander, and needless hatred.
Defend the State of Israel against those who rise up against it from the outside and from those who rise up against it from within, and safeguard it against its exploiters, manipulators, and defamers. Call on our brethren, the entire nation of Israel, on all its parties, and sects, and views, bless them with the understanding that the State of Israel is the carrier of your mercy, light, and salvation, grant its inhabitants love and dignity, and bless them with its fruit.
Our Father in Heaven, prevent uprooting from you estate and needless hatred from your sons, grant wisdom to your leftists and responsibility to your settlers (in some synagogues this shall be recited the other way around,) as well as dignity, and fraternity, and consideration, and understanding among all Your believers and heretics, as is written in the Torah: “Even if your outcasts are at the ends of the world, from there the Lord your God will gather you, from there He will fetch you.”
Manifest yourself in the splendor of Your boldness before the eyes of all inhabitants of Your world, and may everyone endowed with a soul affirm: What a state! What a state! What a state, special and unique. Amen forevermore.
I have a question which I think I asked before, but don't remember anyone answering.
Are there two Gog/Magog wars?
Rev 20:7-10
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Finally I am getting around to reading the latest posts and
I just had to requote Jen as I totally agree:
"I, too, value this fellowship more than you'll ever know since it fills an empty spot I've had for a long time (since college) in terms of growing in my faith with the help of others and it also provides some of the only adult conversation I get on topics that I'm interested in. So thank you to Mac for keeping the cave open and to all the others here who keep the place thriving."
Lori,
Please read Late Nite Lisa's post of May 9th 10:14PM.
After reading this I did a little more checking into this and it is pretty off base. Be sure to read the stuff about the angel he is in contact with.... it is pretty scary stuff. Be careful!!
The Ignighted church link is Todd Bentley.
I think people are so hungry for something from the Lord and to see God move in our country that we grasp at what could possibly be it.
I have a dear friend who is into the prophetic movement and alot of the times the grounding of scripture goes out the window.
There is no belief in the Rapture on their part either. Mostly that it is our job to "bring the kingdom of God to earth" and that we will bring the change about.
Mac, I am with you. If there were a Calvary Chapel somewhere by me I would go for sure.
Grace
PS: My daughter's grades are pulling up and she is not pregnant. Thank you for your prayers. I am so grateful for this but most importantly, she needs to be saved!!!!!!!!!
oops...make that Lisa at 10:14 AM...
Then read several others comments beyond that..
Grace
Hi Grace,
So glad to hear that your daughter is doing better! We will continue to lift her up in our prayers.
I concur with your post about the Todd Bentley website. It was actually very Providential that I read the link from Lisa (link to Derek Prince's message on avoiding deception) before hand. In it, he talked about how he's not too enthralled about the laying on of hands as it can be a 'middle man' between the Lord and the receipient. He gave the example of when he was a missionary in Africa and had to drink water that was collected in a cistern. Rain that fell directly from the sky was fine to drink, but rain that had first been collected in a cistern had to be boiled because it became fouled. He said the same can happen when people receive healing through another. (I don't think he was saying the practice is unScriptural, just that the frequent use of it by so many leaves the door open for lots of unholy stuff to enter as well.) I'd really recommend reading that link (Prince) as I gained alot of understanding (and more avenues to study) from it.
As for the ignite church link, I did look at it, but almost immediately felt the need to pray a hedge of protection around me. On the blog section where people can leave their healing testimonies (ironically, it's called "the desperate"), several reports were given about people receiving healing just through watching the meeting on TV and one woman was healed by a voice mail that her friend left her after watching the meeting on TV. Another report said something about a woman 'floating' to the stage....not sure what that meant. And another report encouraged the reader (me) to put my hands on my computer and receive healing for whatever my problem was. That's when I prayed and got off the site. The Scripture about Satan being the prince of the air came to mind as well.
We all need to proceed with ultra- caution as Scripture says that the end times deception will be so great that even those saved will be influenced and tempted astray.
Blessings,
Jen
Anne
it depends on whose interpretation you read but I do think that the scripture does support two different battles. Joel does a great job of covering this in his book Epicenter.
off the cuff
the players in the wars are different-a limited coalition vs a world wise coalition, the end points appear to be different-revival in Israel vs setting up of millenial Kingdom of Christ, the leaders of the war are different-the former being Russia et all against Israel and the latter is Satan indwelling the AC vs Christ. That's about all I can remember from what he said. I think if you took the two passages and wrote down who, what when where etc you could come up with a clearer picture (which is essentially what Joel did)
Grace
great news on the daugher
Grany
glad you were safe and sound elsewhere. I was concerned for you. As I said-since your electric was on to leave a message I figured your part of the area must have come through relatively unscathed.
Did you by chance happen to go to the Galleria in Houston? a very nice mall indeed.
make that daughter
I agree that the cave fills a void in my life also. given my schedule it is difficult to get together with people and socialize but in truth I am the more social being between me and my hubby (although our son is the actual social butterfly)-hubby just doesn't feel the need to interact with people and have friends, do things with other people such as go out to eat, play dates etc. drives me nutty and not going to change anytime soon.
Lori,
That Todd Bentley is the one who we have been checking up on this week. I didn't know it was called the "Ignited Church."
I read some people are even levitating like Jen mentioned.
This is Satanic.
So-Don't Go.
Maybe you can expose what he's doing and warn others since you are somewhat nearby.
After reading Jen's post-I woundn't view it either.
We are under MAJOR SPIRITUAL ATTACK right now. SIGNS AND WONDERS!!!!!!!
Andrew Storm is the one who is warning about this and he is a "Revival" guy.
confounded concoctions,
I really didn't know anything about the "Prophetic" movement but after reading Strom's stuff that is what I gathered about it as well. Maybe a Revival like that could happen during the Tribulation when those saints try to save people in a last ditch effort but I didn't feel it was for our time right now.
Right now I think the "GREAT DECEPTION" is happening as well.
Let's not let Satan "Zap" us through our computer screens either.
Lisa
Grace,
I have been in prayer for your daughter and prayed for her yesterday. I am glad that things are working out. Is your relationship with her getting better? Could you keep my two daughters in your prayers? Mandy who is saved and will be coming back home from a residential treatment center after being there for 10 months and needs to put God first in her life, and Deanna who is so lost too and needs to be saved and does not want me to talk with her ever again. I have a son who is lost too. I will be in pray for you and your daughter's salvation.
Did anyone have any thoughts on my post of May 9th at 9:37 a.m.?
Since some are talking about a healing revival, I thought I would mention that last Sunday, I took my wife and daughter to a very good church that focuses on healing. My wife nudged me when they ask if anyone needed healing and we went up front and I gave support to my wife while a lady layed hands on her and prayed. I know God heals and I want so bad to see my wife healed. And sometimes God heals instantly and sometimes over a period of time. But I hope I can continue to get my wife to go with me and allow God's hand to heal her. Pray that she would not give up but to go with just the faith she has. Getting her to go is the biggest problem.
-Jec
V a vis Olmert's view of himself... To quote:
"I was elected by you, the citizens of Israel, to be prime minister. I do not intend to shrug off this responsibility," he said. "However, although not required by law, if the attorney general decides to file an indictment against me I will resign."
Straight off, he was NOT elected to be PM, anymore than Sharon was - the Kadima party won the last elections, and they CHOSE Sharon to be PM. When Sharon had a stroke, the PARTY nominated Olmert - the people of Israel had NOTHING to do with him becoming PM.
Likewise, Ehud Barak, even though he is Defense Minister, is not even an elected member of the Knresset!!
John
Hi JEC,
Thanks for sharing the needs of your family...we can put those specific concerns in prayer now.
Also, I want to be sure that no one thinks I'm anti-healing because of my last post. I'm coming to understand daily now just how much warfare is going on and what is required of us in order to repel those attacks. This isn't for wimps and I think I've been in the wimp camp for awhile now! LOL!
John, when I read your Olmert quote, I found it ironic that he considers his responsibility so important when it comes to maintaining his position, but not so important when it comes to maintaining the intergrity of the state in general...how often has he given in on matters of security, borders, etc. and not seemed to view that as a failure of duty?
Blessings,
Jen
LISA, I had a note to you all typed up and something happened to my internet connection and now I have to start all over again. Weird things are happening right now and my Jim has said very loudly that we are supposed to be getting some very bad storms in a few minutes. Nah! Ain't gonna happen! I haven't removed my pleading for protection and don't plan on it either.
What I wanted to tell you is that I went to the link about a Retreat for World Leaders and that was very interesting. Then I was a link to another site and got really excited about that one too. Here is the link:
www.inthedays.com/the-history-of-tomorrow/
It is a PDF file that can be downloaded free and it is the book "The Manasseh Effect" and I read some of it. It really sounds interesting and I am goint to download to my hard drive for further study. I want to thank you for sharing that site with us.
TEXAN FOR CHRIST: wow! I have been listening to the CD's and they are great. Terri Blackstock writes some very interesting things and I am enjoying the audio books greatly. I have listened to the first one and it sure brought up some very interesting points to keep in mind if things do go a stray with nature or other forces. Seemed to fit in with what we have been talking about here.
I haven't even begun to dig into my Email inbox; in fact I am really dreading it. The last time I did that something in my box sent hundreds of messages and brought down my ability to send out mail. Trend Micro has supposedly taken care of that but I don't trust it any more.
All of this new threat is out of my knowledge cycle and I am having to depend on the IT's to take care of it for me. But I am learning and trying to keep up.
LORI; That stadium gathering is not for you! Todd Bentley is the Werewolf of the pack of wolves sent out to destroy and scatter the sheep. Go back to the previous posting here and look for the comments about Todd Bentley. Please don't get mixed up with this guy and his group. We are supposed to be peculiar but not weird and Todd scares me BIG TIME!
OK, now back to catching up with you all.
Love you all,
Grany
I see that I must have been signed into my art blogger name~Confounded Concoctions~ when I posted last time. I just wanted to assure you all that it is me...Grace!!
I have an art business that I use that blog for. Don't use it much since I have not posted to it for awhile...
Just wanted to assure all of you that I am not a security risk!!
I agree Grany about Todd Bentley. I hope others in the prophetic movement see this error too.
Grace
Re Todd Bentley...
2 weeks ago my pastor, together with his son-in-law who is an established healing evangelist in England, were in Florida, and went to one of the meetings in the "revival" being led by Todd Bentley.
They went to verify what they had been hearing.
Miracles ARE taking place, people are getting saved. God is being glorified. That being said, there are some issues and concerns.
Healing through the "laying on of hands" for healing is perfectly scriptural..
Mark 16:15-18:
15 “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 “And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 “they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Acts 8:17:
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 6:1-2:
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
James 3-4:
3 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.
4 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Note also that in the four Gospels, there are 19 different cases of healing recorded. Three of
these were as a result of Jesus casting out a demon. In 13 of the remaining 16 times, Jesus either said or implied that it was the person's own faith that resulted in their healing.
Of course, because we are human, and because, in my personal estimation, some 90% of born again Christians do NOT understand either about healing, nor about how to truly walk, live and be "in the Spirit", you will get a LOT of the flesh manifest, in any revival meeting.
I also witnessed that two weeks ago, when we had, for the first time EVER, a multi-denominational praise and prayer meeting in the Niagara Region, with an attendance of more than 800, with the specific goal of praying for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the churches here.
There was SO much flesh evident, that I think we barely scratched the surface of what Holy Spirit wanted to do - most of it was due to ignorance and a misunderstanding of what constitutes "decently and in order" - as is often the case that focused on the manifestation of "tongues and interpretation" and simple prophecy. There was no instruction to the congregation as to how to behave properly in such a situation, and it degenerated into chaos at the end - which was VERY sad, as there were many people needing ministry for both the receiving of the baptism of Holy Spirit and for healing that never received because of the lack of organization, excessive noise levels (both from people and the worship team) and ignorance on the part of the majority of pastors who were supposed to be doing the laying on of hands.
However, hopefully the next one (and there WILL be another soon), there will be proper, educated and managed ministry time, and the congregation, will, hopefully, be given some instruction as to how to behave. For example (and I know this will upset some), there is NOTHING in Scripture about giving "clap offerings" or "applauding the Lord". We are told to raise "holy hands" to God in worship, NOT clap! Wild, abandoned clapping just brings God down to our level, as if we were at a football match. It makes Holy Spirit immediately step back, not something you want to happen if you want to see God move miraculously. There is no such thing as "clapping in the Spirit". Clapping to hold the beat during worship songs is acceptable, as long as it does not hinder the flow of Holy Spirit.
When God moves, you will, unfortunately, see a LOT of the flesh manifest, but that does NOT mean that the healings and other miracles are NOT of God. What you will see however, is that a lot of people do not maintain their healings because they misunderstand that it is their faith, and what they SAY afterwards that is VERY important. You find many people, when (if) the SYMPTOMS return, start saying that they are not healed - and, what do you know, they aren't.
God's Word says that it is by Jesus stripes that we WERE healed - that's the TRUTH, anything we say that is contrary to that is NOT, and we receive our healing BY FAITH, NOT by sight or experience, and by confessing the TRUTH (which may be different from the facts, but these are temporal - subject to change).
If we say we are "waiting for our healing" to manifest, once we have received prayer, then we will do just that - be waiting for ever!!
Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things NOT seen. - Hebrews 11:1
In law, Evidence is something you can see, touch, feel. In this case, that is the sure, unshakable knowledge that you already have what you are expecting, even when, in the natural, you cannot "see" it. You CAN see it and touch it in the SPIRIT realm.
As it says in Ephesians 1:3:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.
The things of the spirit realm are the eternal, REALLY real things, and everything in the natural originates from the spiritual realm. In the spiritual realm there is healing, health, prosperity, freedom from all manner of disease, sickness, lack, poverty, and according to Ephesians 1:3, we have ALREADY been given ALL those REAL blessings - all we need to do is take them and bring them down into the natural realm, so we can benefit from there in the here and now. We do this by exercising our faith.
Faith is NOW, Faith is active, Faith is the ABSOLUTE assurance that we have ALREADY received what we ask God in prayer for - Mark 11:24.
That is why it is SO important that we learn to step into the realm of the Spirit, ideally we should learn to "live in the Spirit" - then it becomes EASY to get anything we need for our natural life.
John
Jen ( and others),
On a lighter note - yet still serious, last week our pastor had a revelation about praying for a "hedge of protection" around ourselves.
He pointed out that we should actually be praying for a "wall", as hedges have holes in them...
John
jib, thanks for the comments about Gog/Magog. I'll pull out my copy of epicenter and check it out.
jec, I'm so sorry that you are having difficulties with your children. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a child say she didn't want to hear from me again. I will be praying for your family.
I saw a clip of Todd Bently on You tube. He is weird, but I didn't see anything weirder than some of the other "healing" type services I've seen before. That said, I think Strom's warnings should be taken to heart. I also wouldn't have watched it if I had read Jen's post first! Through the computer?!
I was appalled to see children coming forward to be "slain in the Spirit", even a two year old. (BTW, I may be a Baptist, but I don't have anything against healing, laying on of hands, etc. In fact, I believe in these things and have had hands laid on me in prayer, we do this in our church, and also in baptism of the Spirit)
I didn't see any piercings, but you can see tattoos peeking out from his shirt.
Grany, thanks for your concern for all of us about this, but my impression is that no one here is at risk of being taken in by this guy.
Great post Boatman,
I think I agree with you. I can't think where in scripture, but wasn't there a time when Jesus healed someone over a short period of time and through a series of steps? I also agree how we need to pray for a hedge of protection on everything we have, home, cars, wife and children and business. Also, keep in mind that Satan and his demons are lurking around and waiting for us to mess up where we put a hole in that hedge by our own actions. He'll do anything he can to attack us or pounce on us and bring us down.
-Jec
Yeah, I'm NOT going to that church. My friend who initially told me about it had an opportunity to check it out online and also saw a special about it. She said to stay away from it, I agree.
Last Sunday after church, we had a meeting with other workers at Calvary Chapel Jupiter. The church is promoting a 15 week study course on the Holy Spirit. After it's over, they are going to have a service after Sunday services called After Glow. They explained it will give believers the opportunity to operate in the gifts of the Spirit. I'm so excited because I've been going there for 5 years and never heard any mention tongues or the gifts. This is really good news. It'll be interesting to see who in the church shows up.
...but wasn't there a time when Jesus healed someone over a short period of time and through a series of steps?
Hi, Jec, you may be thinking of the time when Jesus healed the blind man. First he restored the man's sight, then he corrected the man's vision as he was seeing people as trees. Apparently this is a noted medical condition and validates the account. I have an article on it somewhere - will try to find it.
My daughter told me to go read what's on the computer. Some of you know, we've been to the mill and back with this one a few times. So many of you have prayed for her and I appreciate it. With her permission, I am posting what she wrote. I hope you'll be as blessed as I when I read it.
You know the saying "Jesus died for your sins." I have heard that phrase for years. I know what happened; Jesus came to earth, was born fully human and fully God to a virgin, He lived a sinless life, performed miracles, inspired millions with His unconditional love, was crucified for our sins and arose from the death to sit at the right hand of God, but I've never really, really thought about exactly what that means quite literally.
I know that means I'm saved from death and have the gift of eternal life, which is really important to understand. What makes this different is that Jesus didn't die for the righteous, goody-goody people who don't have a problem in the world (those people don't exist anyways). Jesus died for the undeserving, the evil, the wicked, the sinners, the screw ups, the doubtful. Quite a humbling thought.
When you hear about a person who gave their life for someone, isn't it always a sacrifice for someone who deserves to be saved? You don't hear about someone jumping in front of a bullet to save a terrorist? Maybe an innocent little girl or war vet grandpa, but never a criminal. Wouldn't the media make that person, who sacrificed their life, out to be a fool or a lunatic?
Paul says in Romans 5:6-8 "But Christ at this time, because of our weaknesses, died for the sake of the wicked. Hardly would any man die for the sake of the wicked; one for the sake of the good, one might be willing to die. God has here manifested his love towards us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
The reality of it is that I'm no more deserving to be saved than the terrorist. We both have sinned. I've lied, lusted, coveted, and disobeyed at the least and who hasn't? Paul says later in Romans (6:23) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through our Lord Christ Jesus."
It doesn't say that the wages of some certain sins are death. No, it says sin. And that means me. There's no escaping it either. It happened. But what is amazing is, that to be saved from my sin earned death, all I have to do is say it, believe it and live it:
"So if you will confess with your mouth our Lord Jesus and will believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For the heart which believes in Him shall be declared righteous, and the mouth that confesses Him shall live." (Romans 10:9-10)
What I guess it comes down to is that I'm a screw up, a sinner. I know that sounds awfully negative and I hate being negative, but it's the truth. But because of a seemingly foolish sacrifice, I am saved! It's the truth for all of us. Jesus knew that the return on His life sacrifice would be the saving of billions of people who He loves unconditionally, no matter how undeserving and what sins I've committed against Him.
I'll I have to do is accepted the gift that He has given me. I have and it's life-alteringly wonderful! ;) Join me? Mia
Campmore,
All I can say is out of the mouth of Babes! And I know she is not a baby, that was really great! Plese give your daughter a hug for me!
-Jec
Mac & JEC,
I posted the "men like trees walking" article a few weeks ago on my blog (Walk this way) in response to Lori's (I think) blind friend who is beginning to see again. Remember how Lori said that her friend saw her baby's foot? I thought that was odd, just to see one part of the body, but then I rememembered I had that article stashed away and so I posted it for her. It talks about a similar experience with another man who had regained his sight. He could only see the paw or tail of a cat until his brain fully learned how to process sight. It's also a great piece to use when arguing the accuracy and dependability of Scripture. The author of that passage did not have the benefit of medical knowledge like we have today and so couldn't have been writing about a faked miracle.
Also, Lori, great news to share about Mia! She's made a realization that can really make a deeper impact on a person when they consider what it is they are believing about Jesus. BTW, how is her boyfriend? I know she posted a prayer request for him last week and I've been meaning to ask about him.
I'll continue to offer up prayers for all our parents-of-young-adults here. I look ahead to those years and hope we're outta here by then! And I look back and remember what trials my own family went through with my ultra-rebellious brother. At one point, he was literally the prodigal son, returning from life as a homeless person. But today, praise God, he's married with a son and a good job, plus 1/2 way through his college degree. God is great and faithful, too!
Blessings,
Jen
Jen, Mia's boyfriend is back to his normal self. They couldn't identify what caused the reaction, but they were able to bring it under control. Thanks again for all your dedicated prayer.
Well since we have been in discussion about tithe lately take a look at what Todd Bentley says about it. This guy picked up on it.
Bentley Tithe Comments
Boatman,
I'm with you 100% on the Gifts of the Spirit as well as healings.
Maybe your pastor & his son- n -law saw this guy on a good day or they were put in a trance and didn't know it.
Look at what he "SAYS". There is no way I can consider this legit.
Healings and Miracles w/some Gospel do not mean it's the power derived from the "Holy" Spirit.
Lisa
I don't know if anyone here is interested but there is a Missionary called "Orphans tear" that has a few places in Myanmar.
The orphans need our prayers. Fortunately not one orphan died but their houses are damaged or ruined.
Orphans Tear
lisa;
"Healings and Miracles w/some Gospel do not mean it's the power derived from the "Holy" Spirit."
Amen!
John,
"When God moves, you will, unfortunately, see a LOT of the flesh manifest,"
Is this what you mean?
Spirit Feelings
Or what is "flesh Manifest"?
Is that eyes rolling back ? Dog barking? or fainting? or ?
I saw our pastor jump up and down a little when the Holy Spirit decended upon the congregation.I would guess that may be an example.
I'm just trying to figure this one out as I'm learning more all the time.
Lisa
Gee...more tornadoes...now in Oklahoma...Grany we are assuming you are ok.
Praise God for Mia, Lori! Wow, how wonderful!
Hey Lori,
Make sure to print Mia's testimony out and date it, then stick it in her baby book or Bible. I wish many times I had done that with some of my writing and/or important dates in my spiritual growth so I could go back, when needed, to remember and appreciate those special events.
Blessings,
Jen
This is a video from Rodger Oakland w/Calvery Chapel. It did touch on the Torento Blessing.What I liked about it is that it takes a bigger picture and narrows it down to what Satan's ultimate plan is. One of which to get us accustomed to more "Higher Supernatural" events which will be unleashed during the Great Tribulation. People will become much more excepting of those things since they were already exposed to them.
End time Deceptions
It's probably a little premature but I put up a new post. Otherwise I'll still be sleeping when the posts go over 150.
Happy mother's day to all the moms tomorrow!
on May 6, 2008 at 11:16 mac said...
I'm just letting everyone know that I have invited someone, who used to post at Joel's, to the cave. His name is Jim (2 Jims now) but he may post as Adopted. Please welcome him when he posts. Thanks.
I'm the "Jim" Mac mentioned. I just wanted to say hello to everyone. While you won't recognize me (I don't believe I ever posted a comment on Joel's blog), I certainly recognize many of you who were regularls at Joel's blog before comments were blocked. I had an opportunity to see Joel speak and to meet him briefly at a church in Tualatin, Oregon several weeks ago. He clearly loves the Lord and is being used by Him.
Alesia, Grumpy, Harold, Late Night Lisa, Jib, Jim.Carroll, Boatman909, and Nate Lewis. I remember you all (and a few more here I'm sure). I really enjoy reading your thoughtful posts.
I'd like to especially thank Overcomer whose blog I was fortunate enough to visit and bookmark. She connected me with Mac. Mac, thankyou for following up and inviting me to this blog. I think I'll probably hang low and not comment much. I imagine I'll be too busy reading comments and following links to related articles and websites to be able to comment much myself.
Looking forward to dropping in regularly though. Phillipians 4:8
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