The soul which gives itself wholly and without reserve to
God is filled with His own Peace; and inasmuch as we are prone
to grow like that to which we are closely united, the closer
we draw to our God, so much the stronger and more steadfast
and more tranquil shall we become.
- Jean N. Grou (1731-1803) -
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Psalm 98:1,2
"Sing to the LORD a new song; Sing to the LORD, all the earth.
Sing to the LORD, bless His name; Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day.
A blessed a joyful day All You His Beloved!
since I posted this at the end of the last string I'm going to repost it.
I don't mind the topics per se it-s the interminable discussion of them when the majority have let their opinions be known. I don't know that any of the topics listed by Lisa should be off limits completely.
the one caution about pulling it to other blogs is that not all have other blogs to post on and if there aren't more than a couple of people we don't need a I said you said thing going on either with people taking sides.
From my perspective the issues that have been discussed to practically the point of beating them to death are tongues and pre wrath views. If we're going to include any contentious subjects like Mary and sightings of then to be fair we should include anything about nephilium, things like earthquake resurrection, seals open now or not, emergent church good or bad, osas, saturday vs sunday, faith healing vs medicine, dominion now theology etc. Do you all see where I'm going with this? I don't mind the occasional post from Jim about Marian sightings and Marian doctrine since it gives me a better idea of where some Catholics are coming from. If I had to read several days worth of posts I'd probably be a little disgusted and not post either. Same however is true of some of the other things that have been discussed like all the stuff about Earthquake resurrection. We can not turn this into a places of cliques divided along thought lines or the enemy has won.
so for me
1-the occasional post and even a couple of days of discussion is not a problem even if I don't agree with the subject. I completely don't agree with any of the Marian doctrine but I also don't think Jim pummels us with it or other catholic theology either and he generally only brings it up in response to something someone has specifically asked. The man doesn't believe quite a bit of what any of us believe yet is always courteous and you don't really hear him complaining about endless discussions of the rapture for example. If a topic drives you crazy-don't read the posts on it. If I have strong feelings on something I generally don't read posts from that person while a discussion about certain topics is ongoing or I read just enough to make sure it is still being discussed by that person and move on.
2-if someone brings something up that is likely to touch off a new debate with the same old material being drug out- if you feel the need to respond please respond with "you all know how I feel and I won't belabor the point. we can discuss it at my blog" Do not rehash the same arguments that have been rehashed ad nauseum and likely won't be solved in this lifetime. If you have a new point to make for or against by all means post. When things deteriorate to the same old same old please take it elsewhere and make it all public so that there is a record of exactly what is said and by whom.
very funny. loved that even the bird wouldn't talk to the police
:-)
Lost Parrot tells vet where he lives
Hi
Grany - That's it?
That's all we get is "Hi"?
LOL :-)
Question,
Our personal blog pages are public are they not?
(At least I thought they were-but I would be considered new at this)
Lisa
New topic:
Grandpa’s special pancakes
Ingredients:
1 egg
About 1 1/2 cups of milk
2 cups of flour
1 tablespoon of whole-wheat flour
1 heaping tablespoon of fresh baking powder
1/2 tsp salt
2 tablespoons of sugar
4 tablespoons of vegetable oil
1/2 cup of shelled pecans
Method:
1. Beat together the egg and milk.
2. Add the rest of the ingredients. Mix (can add more milk if needed).
3. Pour 1/4 cup onto skillet heated at medium.
4. Cook for a couple of minutes on one side (until edges are brown and bubbles form in batter).
5. Flip and cook on other side a couple more minutes.
6. Serve immediately.
7. Don't forget: Mighty good on Saturday morning!
Notes: When Jacob made these, he used buttermilk, which made them extra fluffy. He also used less than four tablespoons of oil. And my uncle Austin recalls that Grandpa insisted his secret to great pancakes was in using a fresh and hearty tablespoon of baking powder.
Rise to the power of baking powder.
Grany
Jib,
"the one caution about pulling it to other blogs is that not all have other blogs to post on...
(Anyone who wants to create their own discussion on a blog page can do so by logging in to their account. It's free.)
and if there aren't more than a couple of people we don't need a I said you said thing going on either with people taking sides."
"We can not turn this into a places of cliques divided along thought lines or the enemy has won."
These two comments I just don't understand how that would come about. If we broke off into groups on someone's blog page to discuss something?
Or is it if we publically state we agree or diagree w/a particular person on a subject matter? Does that create a "clique"?
I know you understand what your saying I'm just not reading between the lines very well.
(I'm the detailed type-sorry ):
"tongues and pre wrath views" So we agree to discuss these two items on someone's blog page unless something new pops up?
Then when that new thing surfaces we shouldn't go back and state the same scripture and points already stated for the 100th time.
Correct?
This is a repost from the old blog.
Lisa, Shalom! RE: the Christian lady's dream:
Not a whole lot to go on, but I'll give it a shot. (BTW, if she's of an English background, this interpretation would make a whole lot more sense.) Circular table, beautifully decorated = festive occasion, where all are equal. Where there is a circular table, there's no head; with no head, there's no assigning prestige by the distance from the head, i.e., the Knights of the Round Table. The muffin/rolls with the cross on it sounds like a hot cross bun, a tradition food served at Easter in England (if I'm not mistaken).
<><
This is a repost from the last blog.
Jeri from SA, Shalom! Yeah, I saw what the Saudis said about no churches in Saudi Arabia until the Catholics recognize Muhammad as a prophet. That'll happen when we start using grape juice and potato chips for Communion. It does tie in with the post I made yesterday about the Saudis trying to claim pre-eminence in the Islamic world, of being "the Vatican of Islam." I believe the present Grand Mufti of Mecca is appointed the the King. I tell you, if we start seeing a collection of Inmans getting together and electing the next Grand Mufti in a secret ballot, we'll be seeing the creation of a true anti-Church, assuming all the dignity and ritual with none of the legitimacy.
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
I am going out of town until Tuesday so I will not have access to a computer. I will pray for each of you while I'm away. To Lisa: when anyone brings up Bonnaroo in Manchester, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING unless you really want to be offended (the steeple chase and the renfair were church socials comparatively speaking). You will thnk you got time warped back to the 60's because the typical goer on TV looks very hippyish and drugs/drunks are rampant.
I just wanted to again say that I agree totally with what JIB stated at 10:31.
Any topic is fine, but when we go over it a zillion times and it monopolizes everything and turns people off, its time to take it to whoever's blog.
I also have to bring up a bit of a change in me.
As you know, I've been somewhat freaking out whenever the Mary and Saints thing has come up.
Well, I connected with our very own Grany for some sage advice. Among other things she suggested I pray about it...and guess what..for the past couple of days I no longer get freaked out when it comes up.
I think I may be able to discuss it rationally! :)
Not that I think differently about it, I just don't get filled with serious anger and frustration over it!
And that's a good thing.
Normally I am a pretty mellow person, but that particular topic (and some other RCC things) would get me going every time. NO MORE!
Halleluliah! (or however you spell it).
:) <><
I'm really not trying to limit any topic per se but those would be two that I am truly sick to death of.
yes the blogs are public spaces but Mac, Boatman, Grany and myself to name 4 have moderator enabled blogs which means that stuff gets posted on our blogs at our discretion and only after we review the material and decide to post it. so depending on the discretion of the person whose blog is being posted on some of the comments might not be posted because they don't agree.
as far as others not having blogs. several people who post here do not actually have active blogs despite the fact that they have blue names. others like Sara and ATTY you have to be an invited participant to even see or post on. A little hard for jim to take any discussion of catholic teachings to his blog when he doesn't have one despite the blue name.
people can abide by what I said or not-it's quite frankly everyone's personal choice. They are after all a suggestion to keep things civil and fair. No one seemed to want to be the one to lay down any ground rules so I took it upon myself to do so since those are my personal ground rules. Further I am used to herding stray cats (what most docs are) at work and working with disparate personalities all of whom are prima donnas (thankfully none of you even come close to being prima donnas). I'm not chief of my service for nothing.
hello???????????
no one can think of anything to say?
just checking in... where is everyone?
a cousin sent this in the mail-not sure that the sentiment is entirely scriptural but it does seem to be more about agape love than anything else.
Dancing in the Rain
It was a busy morning, about 8:30, when an elderly gentleman in his 80's arrived to have stitches removed from his thumb. He said he was in a hurry as he had an appointment at 9:00 am.
I took his vital signs and had him take a seat, knowing it would be over an hour before someone would to able to see him. I saw him looking at his watch and decided, since I was not busy with another patient, I would evaluate his wound. On exam, it was well healed, so I talked to one of the doctors, got the needed supplies to remove his sutures and redress his wound.
While taking care of his wound, I asked him if he had another doctor's appointment this morning, as he was in such a hurry. The gentleman told me no, that he needed to go to the nursing home to eat breakfast with his wife. I inquired as to her health.
He told me that she had been there for a while and that she was a victim of Alzheimer's Disease.
As we talked, I asked if she would be upset if he was a bit late.
He replied that she no longer knew who he was, that she had not recognized him in five years now.
I was surprised, and asked him, 'And you still go every morning, even though she doesn't know who you are?'
He smiled as he patted my hand and said, 'She doesn't know me, but I still know who she is.'
I had to hold back tears as he left, I had goose bumps on my arm, and thought, 'That is the kind of love I want in my life.'
True love is neither physical, nor romantic. True love is an acceptance of all that is, has been, will be, and will not be.
The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.
'Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain.'
Bush Organizes Summit to Divide Jerusalem
What a sweet story JIB, thank you for sharing it with us.
I'm headed inside to watch the American Idol finale...will check in later!
Donna - your headed inside?
Your computer is located outside in a barn or something????
I thought this was a good article!
The only link was to my email so I am copying the article and posting it here. It is by J. Lee Grady of Charisma Magazine.
Whatever Happened to the Fear of God?
If we want the same level of supernatural anointing that was evident in the New Testament church, we should also pray for a higher level of holiness.
We charismatics yearn for a return to the raw intensity of the early church—the angelic visitations, power encounters, prophecies, mass conversions and missionary adventures. I want all of that! The book of Acts is the gold standard for normative Christianity, and we shouldn’t rest until we see it manifested in our generation.
But those first-century miracles didn’t happen in a vacuum. They flowed from a praying church that was bathed in humility and holiness. The early disciples had not only been baptized in the Holy Spirit; they had also been baptized with fire (see Matt. 3:11). And the fire of God is a cleansing flame that burns up sin and produces the fear of the Lord.
We tend to forget that the same people who experienced tongues on the day of Pentecost, and then witnessed the healing of a lame beggar in Jerusalem, also watched in horror as Ananias and Sapphira—two influential but compromising church members—dropped dead because God’s presence was so strong. When their bodies were carried away, the Bible says, “great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things” (Acts 5:11, NASB).
“We love the ecstatic joy and the goose bumps that accompany revival meetings. But revival is not fun and games. Are we ready for the terror?”
Do we want that level of God’s presence? The fear that came on the early church is also called a “sense of awe” in Acts 2:43. We often downplay the fear of God by saying that it really means “reverence.” But the Greek word used in Acts 5:11 and Acts 2:43 is phobos, which can be translated “exceeding dread, alarm or terror.”
We love the ecstatic joy and the goose bumps that accompany revival meetings. But revival is not fun and games. Are we ready for the terror?
As I pray for revival in my own life and in my nation, I have started praying regularly for the fear of the Lord. And I think it will manifest in some key areas:
1. Truthfulness. When we walk in close fellowship with the Holy Spirit we will feel an immediate sense of conviction if we say anything false or misleading. That conviction will hound us until we repent and repair the damage we have done with our mouths. We will hear the word of the Lord echoing in our conscience: “Do not lie to one another” (Col. 3:9).
I realized a few years ago that I sometimes lied when someone asked me if I had read a certain book or knew of a certain celebrity or sports figure. Even if I did not know anything about the subject of the conversation, I would nod and pretend that I was informed. I recognized later that I did this out of insecurity, hoping to appear knowledgeable. I had to repent of pride and ask God to help me be honest.
This may seem minor, but little white lies breed serious deceit. If we have no fear of God, we will exaggerate and think nothing of it. This can become a crisis when church leaders, in their zeal for revival, are careless when reporting miracles, healings or numbers of conversions. Exaggeration is lying. If we build a ministry by stretching the truth, we stand on shaky ground. Christ’s kingdom cannot be built on hype.
We often assume that the sin of Ananias and Sapphira was greed. But the Bible actually says they were struck dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit (see Acts 5:3). They sold a piece of property and pretended to give all the money to the apostles when in fact they had kept some of the proceeds for themselves. They were trying to look good in the eyes of church leaders. They were attempting to buy favor and influence—and God caught them in the act.
2. Sexual purity. All of us know that the American church is facing a sexual crisis. Some denominations, such as the Episcopal Church, have bowed to the spirit of Baal to embrace homosexual practice as acceptable behavior. Recently, Episcopal bishop Gene Robinson announced that gay marriage is a new truth revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Thankfully the charismatic world hasn’t slipped to that level of depravity. But we have never witnessed so much moral failure in our ranks. Many ministers are living double lives and hiding their girlfriends and out-of-wedlock babies. In my city, one prominent minister had an affair with a stripper and went right on preaching from the same pulpit without skipping a beat.
If I am walking in the fear of God, I will not peek at pornography, entertain fantasy or cross a sexual boundary. And if I am in church leadership, I will never allow ministers with questionable sexual reputations to defile the congregation by allowing him to lay hands on them or impart his defilement. I don’t care how “anointed” a man of God is or how accurate his prophecies are. If he has been engaging in immorality and has not been restored properly, he will infect people with his sin if we give him a platform.
3. Financial integrity. We should learn from the example of Eli’s reprobate sons, Hophni and Phinehas, that God does not wink at extortion—especially when it involves money that has been given to God. These “worthless” men were judged severely because they had their hands in the offering plate (see 1 Sam. 2:12-17).
The eighth commandment forbids stealing. Yet in the “Spirit-filled” church today, ministers think nothing of robbing the saints. Too often the collection of the offering turns into a circus involving manipulation, theatrics and the twisting of Scripture—as well as arms—to meet a budget goal. Why should we be surprised when God’s presence lifts at that point in the service?
If we truly fear the Lord we will be conscious of the fact that He watches how we handle money in His house. He sees every dollar that is given. Heaven keeps accurate accounting. God knows how we word our financial appeals and if we use the money for one thing when it was pledged for another.
4. Reverence for God. In some charismatic churches today, leaders have introduced a trendy new teaching that compares God to drugs. They proclaim that “Jesus is my D.O.C.”—my “Drug of Choice.” In a bizarre attempt to be relevant with our culture, they compare a spiritual encounter with God to a heroin overdose. In one instance, a group of people pretended to shoot invisible needles into their arms as they prayed for one another and asked God for His anointing. And this was in a so-called “revival service”!
One minister in Oregon refers to God as “Jehovahjuana”—implying that the Lord can give you a marijuana high. Another conference speaker in California put a plastic Jesus from a nativity scene into his mouth and encouraged a group of teens to “smoke baby Jesus.” The kids all laughed and everyone thought this was a hoot.
Actually, mishandling the name of the Lord in such a flippant manner, and comparing God to an illegal drug, is what the Bible calls blasphemy. We do not have permission to dishonor His character by changing His name to something sinful and degrading.
How desperately we need the dreadful fire of His holy presence! I hope we will all cry out together the prayer of David in Psalm 86:11: “Teach me Your way, O Lord; I will walk in Your truth; unite my heart to fear Your name.”
J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma.
Grace
"Is that a joke or did you really look into dream interpretation in the New Age venue?"
Lisa, I DID study dream interpretation, and a few other things I won't mention now.
Grace
excellent article. I particularly appreciated the points the author made about sexually impure ministers continuing on in their preaching while engaged in immorality. I would have to say that anyone involved in a position of leadership in the church, especially the pastor, who engages in immorality and hides it is no longer one of God's annointed. So my comments about Jim Bakker stand-sorry Lori. The man imo ceased to be an annointed one of God when he willingly and actively chose immorality. Granted he repented but I must cynically admit I was never sure he was sincere about being sorry for what he did or just being caught. Didn't help that Tammy Faye divorced him afterward because that just made me more cynical. I won't deny that the man likely had a bigger more positive impact than most and did a lot of good but one false step and he is remembered more for his sin than anything else-especially in the eyes of the non believing public.
I know growing up that I was taught that if you were caught in a sexual sin and in the pastoral leadership-your career as a pastor was done even if you were truly repentant and restored. A missionary physician that I worked with overseas and had a great deal of respect for him was fired or asked to leave the field he had served on since the early 1960's (this was in the early 90's I think) because of an adulterous affair while on the field. His wife reconciled and stayed with him after the affair but he was finished in the ministry as far as they were concerned. Overly harsh-may be. There was a church member caught embezzling from the church as church treasurer in the small church I grew up in (they were quite poor). He was restored and paid back the money but was never allowed to handle money again and in fact I believe was never allowed to have any position in the church after that point. I think that's likely a little over the top (not the money part)
while certainly any one can fall into sexual sin I think it is a particular blind spot. You can not avoid temptation of any kind without relying compeltely and utterly on God's power. If you think you can go it alone because you are a famous pastor or a member of a little church in the middle of nowhere you will fail. Not might fail, will fail.
the whole drug part-just bizarre and I would agree very inappropraite and very disrespectful
JIB - SERIOUSLY!
That story made me a blubbering idiot. Reminded me of "The Notebook", which made me bawl my eyes out & vow to never watch sappy movies, ever again.
Really, thanks, it was beautiful! :-)
Shalom, all! I've been out trying to get some work done and been in trying to get some praying done! My Russian ex-wife left today to go back to Russia for a couple of weeks to get some paperwork so she can go back to grad school. Apparently, things have tightened up again so academic records can't be mailed out of the country; you have to go in person to get transcripts, etc. We're still on good terms, and I'd like to ask that you pray for her safe journey and return.
I wanted to pass on this blog that I got from a guy named Mark Mallett. It's from a prophetic image he received about two years ago, and it's titled “THE RESTRAINER HAS BEEN LIFTED”
It's based on 2 Thess. 2:3, and I think some of you might find it interesting.
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
Donna, Shalom!
That article was dated May 2, and the summit was supposed to have been on the 17th and 18th of May, so we don't have to worry about that just yet.
<><
I think several people had good ideas about not beating a topic to death and not forming cliches. Several people have asked about ATTY. I am not sure if ATTY will post here again. He, like myself, wants to discuss end times prophecy. That is after all the topic that brought most of us together in the first place.
That doesn't mean that is the only topic I think we should discuss, but end times prophecy frequently seems to get shoved to the bottom and other topics that many of us don't care for dominate the discussion. We all need a happy medium. :-)
I think, Mac, Campsmore, Nate, Alesia, Lisa and others (sorry for the people I left out) do an excellent job of postings links to some very interesting articles on everything from the fallacy of Global Warming, to Food Shortages, to Politics, to the Middle East, etc. It saves me a lot of time and effort looking for articles on the Internet. I would not be one tenth as informed about what is going on without those links. I really appreciate all you guys and girls doing this and I would like to say "Thank-you".
Jim and I often don't see eye to eye on religious matters, but I do appreciate his posts on Catholicism and other topics. I have learned a tremendous amount from them and I would like to thank you as well Jim for them.
God Bless,
Harold
Well, I for one hope we do get back into focusing on end times and current events.
Not that those are the only issues we have to talk about...but it would be nice if that were a main focus.
Jim, I will be praying for your ex-wife and for her safe journey, as I am sure others will, too.
Now I have to ask you guys for some prayers.
My husband and son have been building a house. They have been working very hard on it on and off for over a year.
It's really nice, efficient and in a great neighborhood.
We would love and need your prayers that it sells soon...like immediately! lol
The market here is still ok...slow..but ok.
We really could use and need your prayers! I know it may sound a little selfish...but we really need your prayers for this!
We've been in the process of getting a realtor involved...and things should kick in with them in the next few days.
Please pray that this house sells very soon!
Thank you!
Donna
Praying, Donna.
Thank you, Mac, I really appreciate it..and everything else you do!
I appreciate everyone here!
Sara - wishing you a happy & safe trip! Praying for your safe journey.
Jim - praying for your ex.
Donna - praying for your house to sell (wish I could have helped with the building - I'm a wanna be carpenter)
Hey jib, I liked your discussion of the content of this blog. Here's my two cents.(verbose as usual)
1. All of us here are servants to the Lord and the Spirit in us may lift up things to post here. I think if the Spirit puts something in our heart, we should post it. Hopefully, we also have the discernment to hold our tongues/keys when it's just a rehashing of an old topic.
2. Some of us may have a special interest in certain areas. Each may have a useful take on an old topic triggered by a new news article. For instance, if thousands of UFO's were to appear around the world, I might want to revisit the nephilim/signs in the sky topics.
3. Some of the main reasons I hang out and post here is because I love the interaction and because I am often challenged to get back in the word and re-examine what I believe.
In His Grip,
Scott
Ditto Scott,
Now we seem to be beating the "beating the dead horse" issue!
-GRIN-
Ya just gotta love the Cave Dwellers!
In His Love and looking up
Debbie
Where are the kewl links?
Somebody had forwarded me this link which pretty much sums up what I feel is happening on the spiritual battlefield.
They Want Your Mind
I've been running around in circles trying to fend off so much of these ideas and concepts that I thought this article layed it out well. (there are a few that may not agree w/everything-I know)
"The Image that Lives" & "Christain Mind Powers" hit a couple things home for me.
There is a benefit to have knowledge about these things because when we see them tucked in somewhere (especially our churches) we can recognize them.
I can't even tell you how much this New Age thought process is permeating every aspect of our life and culture right now. Everywhere I turn it's there.
I really believe this is the spirit of the Anti-Christ preparing the way for his acceptance.
This thought process will be ingrained like cancer into several different positions/areas then combined into one universal idea.
Lisa
Here we go-straight to Israel!
Al Gore says Israel should lead the way in renewable energy
Peace talks with Syria a national obligation
Jim and Sara, praying as well. My aplogies, my forces have been scattered today. I'm only reading some of this stuff now.
lisa;
"I can't even tell you how much this New Age thought process is permeating every aspect of our life and culture right now. Everywhere I turn it's there."
I agree, it is often very subtle, hardly noticed at first.
Thanks for the link to that article, it does tie together some important information that we all need in this "time of deception".
God Bless!
Jim,
Thanks for the link to the article titled THE RESTRAINER HAS BEEN LIFTED. This Protestant enjoyed it! Then again, I really appreciate the writings of Peter Kreeft, Antonin Scalia, G.K. Chesterton, and Pope John Paul II (I know, he's in heaven now but that brother spoke the truth definitely had a pastor's heart!)
Interestingly enough, my grandfather was born in Sicily. He was raised Catholic of course and came to the United States as a young man with his mom and brothers. His dad was killed by the mafia in Sicily. Anyway, there was an Italian Pentecostal evangelist who came from New York to San Jose to minister to the Italian American community there around 1910-1920. His name was Brother Mario Bongiorno. I believe my grandfather was the 1st person who he led to the Lord. Apparently my grandfather had no personal relationship with Christ. When he was saved (born again), he naturally figured the Catholic church didn't get it. They never presented the gospel message to him (or he never heard it). I've since realized that I have many brothers and sisters in the Catholic church who have placed their faith in Christ.
Keep up the great posts, brother!
Jim G. (the other Jim)
Please pray for Steven Curtis Chapman and his family.
Just saw this news story:
(AP) — The 5-year-old daughter of Grammy-winning Christian music star Steven Curtis Chapman was struck and killed Wednesday by a sport utility vehicle driven by her brother, authorities said.
Jim G.
A Week in the Holy Land
Who knows, maybe the UN WILL eventually move there too! Wouldn't that create a stir in prophetic circles?
Success in Iraq
Commander: Al-Qaida in Iraq is at its weakest
Russia wants Arctic oil - a story that reveals the unpleasant truth about Putin's Russia.
God is always on time
Donna---I loved your post at 1:50! Good for you!!! I am praying for your house to sell---keep us posted!!! :)
Jim--praying for a safe journey for your ex-wife....
Grany, Imagining myself eating the pancakes...however, much to my dismay---I am on weight watchers and basically have to seriously watch everything I eat! Ohhhh why did I let myself get to this point?? Ahhhhh!
God Bless....
Thanks, Chick, and everyone else.
So sad about Steven Curtis Chapman.
This same type of things seems to be happening around here, too.
In the past 2 months 2 teens whose families are Christians have died in separate car accidents.
Thanks for all the posts and links which I shall get to.
Maranatha!
<><
I just re-read that "Mind" article.
Remember when I mentioned that some lady behind me in Church was saying "Jesus,Jesus,Jesus" over and over-& my red lightbulb went off? Not only was it irritating but I thought it was strange.
"Schuller suggests using the phrase I AM over and over. Others suggest the use of the Name of Jesus. This surely is a blasphemy of the highest order. When supposed men of God teach thousands of gullible Christians to take the Name(s) of the Holy God in vain, just to serve their own natural needs, - or, worse, to open their minds to demons - then we have truly come to the dividing line between Christianity and apostasy."
Some people must have brought in this teaching to my Church. I don't hear it very often but there must be a handful that do this during worship.
I wonder if I should bring this up? I'm such the troublemaker they're going to send me back to CA-ASAP.
Lisa
Lisa,
What you are seeing and hearing is ignorance gone to seed. It comes up all fleshy, and is not even fit for animal consumption.
John
Here's what the Jewish Tanarch (that's us Christians' OT) says about the Nephilim (you want to talk about "end-time" subjects?).
They were the offspring of the sons of Seth (the righteous line) and the daughters of Cain (the unrighteous line).
The commentary that goes along with the verse is the opinion of the Jewish sages from 1000's of years.
It appears that the "fallen-angels" idea is thus something out of a bastardized Christianity (when Christianity became a recognized "religion") - I suspect it became a Church tradition at the time of Constantine, when the true Church was overrun by all sorts of weirdos, after Constantine made Christianity the only religion, and in order to get work, you pretty much had to declare yourself a Christian.(This is what led to the Dark Ages, when true Christianity is any real sense almost died out in Europe and the Near East).
I also had the opportunity to study the original Hebrew, and it is clear that the last sentence in Genesis 6:4 actually says that the subject of the first sentence - the Nephilim, were men of old, men of great destruction".
(I think we can trust the sages (not the Pharisees and their ilk - I'm speaking of the great Torah sages of ages gone by- they've had twice as long as we have to study the Word of God - they were there when it was written!)
There is no mention of angels, fallen or otherwise.
I think we have been hoodwinked by the devil - this is a "doctrine of demons" we were warned about.
If I were you, I wouldn't touch the subject with a 10-ft (or even a 100-ft) barge pole.
John
You guys here at the Cave SAY you want to go back to the study of the end-times - as if the various subjects that have been discussed are not related.
You (most of you) do NOT! (I say that as a verifiable fact, not because of your attitude toward me in particular)
What I do see is that you, for all all intents and purposes, ONLY want to talk about certain things, most of which are nothing more than bunny trails, making mountains out of a few words or less of Scripture, and IGNORING what Scripture ACTUALLY says about the end-times.
It gets, worse, because not only do you want to limit discussions to things you are "happy" with or "agree" with, but worse, you continually ignore the Scriptures, and are continually making up your own interpretations, mostly to fit the events of the day or week, and somehow connect them to prophetic passages in the Word of God.
I can PROVE this ABSOLUTELY from the Word - but what is the point - I doubt many of you will have actually read this far - once you saw my blogger tag. That in it itself proves my point.
You say you want to be Bereans - I see no real evidence of that, merely a rehash of ideas, traditions, other people's teachings - but never personal, reasoned, thoughtful deep study of the word of God - open to correction, new ideas, or even fresh (to you) revelation.
The statement by someone that they don't want tongues (for example) because they do not want to be considered weird by the world(!!!!) is NOT the behavior of a true believer in Jesus - "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" - you have, my friend, just convicted yourself - just as Jesus said you would. (PLEASE read what Jesus has to say about people who are more concerned about what men say about them than what God says about them!). This alone just doubly proves my point.
(Other statement about not wanting the baptism of Holy Spirit are actually FAR more serious - but enough already...)
What I also see is many people being seduced by "traditions" and "doctrines of demons", and the teachings of those who satisfy their "itching ears". [1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:3, 1 John 2:26]
Now, THAT is end-time prophecy come to life - and you, my friends are party to it. I'm deeply saddened and grieved in my spirit for you.
Rather we need to be like Timothy [1 Timothy 6:20].
God bless you all.
John.
P.S- if you get this far - you CANNOT ask God for the "gift of tongues" on its own. You ONLY get the ability to pray in tongues as a result of being baptised in Holy Spirit - it's simply a question of "cause and effect" - tongues are an "effect" of receiving the Baptism of Holy Spirit, which is the "cause".
You CANNOT have tongues without the Baptism, and you SHOULD speak in tongues as "evidence" of Holy Spirit coming upon you with "power from on high", contrary to what many teach.
Anyone asking JUST for the "gift of tongues" - or any other supernatural gift ( a popular one is the so called "gift of discernment" - which does not exist - not according to Scripture) is putting themselves in a position to be taken advantage of by the enemy, and begging for trouble. It is not scriptural to do this, and Satan will wipe the floor with you if you persist in trying. You risk becoming "demon oppressed" - a true believer CANNOT become "demon possessed" - the Holy Spirit dwells in their spirit man.
Hi John,
I just read everything you wrote..as I am sure others will as well.
I assume you must realize that there are different schools of thoughts regarding tongues.
I for one, have gone round in circles for years about this issue...and have no real interest in continuing to go back and forth about it again and again.
I personally do want to move on to other topics....end times and current events would be one topic I personally would like to focus on.
I do not think that there is anything wrong with wanting to move onto other topics, since this one has been talked about so much already.
If others wish to continue conversing about it...great! Where and when should be decided.
I do not get the sense that this is the best place to continue on with this dialogue though, from what I have been reading that others wrote.
There are different schools of thought on this. We all need to be open to the fact that there are different schools of thought on this, and other, topics.
We just keep getting "stuck" and go round and round about it.
I realize you feel strongly about it. You must feel frustrated that others feel differently. I get that way too, but on other topics. I'm sure you realize that others feel strongly about this topic, but with a different school of thought about it than yours.
I'm not saying anything new. Some folks, including me, would just like to move on to other topics.
<><
Donna,
As I thought, people would latch on the subject of "tongues" - that is why I put it as a PS, because, looking at some of my previous posts, I realized I may have, inadvertently, given the impression that you ask for the "gift of tongues", or you focus on that particular aspect, when you are seeking to know, understand, and receive the Baptism of Holy Spirit.
The WHOLE point of what I was saying is that if you cannot rightly divide the Word of Truth on this subject, which is extensively discussed and explained in the NT, and which is INDISPUTABLY an End Times subject of great importance, how can you POSSIBLY expect to be able to grasp the complexities of the topics in the Book of Revelation, Daniel and other last days prophetic scriptures.
The evidence I see is that you cannot.
You have, therefore proved my initial point. You DO NOT REALLY WANT to discuss the end-times - only subjects that interest your minds.
Your minds are NOT renewed when you are born-again - they need to be renewed by the study of God's Word. You cannot trust what your mind says concerning the Word, only your spirit man.
The ONLY part of you that is recreated is your spirit, and your mind has to come into subjection, and be under the control of your spirit. If you cannot distinguish clearly between the two, this will cause you to be led into error.
If you reject teaching in the Word, because you don't agree with what it says, you leave yourself open to demonic deception - which is also clearly happening here. THAT is why what you all doing is SO dangerous.
John
John,
I am very saddened by your comment.
Rather than tip-toe around this topic, I'm going to be brutally honest with my thoughts on this, so that you have a proper understanding of where I (and perhaps others) stand.
This blog exists as a means for us (brothers & sisters in Christ) to FELLOWSHIP with one another & lift each other up spiritually. This is NOT a CHURCH where we should be forced to attend, against our will & preached to.
John, the manner in which you make comments, is preaching & demanding us to see things the way you do. We are made to feel that we are catastrophically wrong if we don't agree with you.
Most other comments are done in a manner of "Hey, check this out -this is what I found or think - let's discuss"
That is NOT the manner in which you post.
The truth is: There are many that simply don't agree with some of the things you say. (there are some that do) Rather than let it go, for the sake of this fellowship, you feel the need to clobber us with a sledgehammer. No matter how much you want, we're not going to agree or see some/all things the way you do.
I, personally, don't think ANY topic should be off-limits.
Here is a comment I made to Mac regarding this:
...which is why I do think this fellowship is so important. I don't mind when things are stated that I don't maybe agree with. That, in itself, is a learning mechanism - to be exposed to other thoughts, so that you can feel more secure in the thoughts you have and/or to challenge what one believes...
So you see, I do think it's invaluable to be exposed to various different thoughts/denominations/interpretations. But it gets old & insulting when we've covered the same topic over & over & it is obvious people don't want to hear about it any longer.
I made the plea last week - because we are losing folks here because of this!
John, can you NOT see this??? Look at how many people are not posting any longer.
This place is incredibly important to me - I don't want to see that happen.
John, I love you as a brother in Christ, I don't wish to be hurtful to you.
I JUST ask you to step back, look at this objectively & see what this is doing to the cave!
I don't want to tell anyone that they can't speak of certain things. But I DO ask that we all be respectful of others feelings, religious diversities & love one another in the manner that gives Glory to God. First & foremost.
I don't think that's asking for too much.
God Bless you & everyone else here.
Shalom Aleichem to all, my brothers and sisters in Christ! Alesia wrote:
This blog exists as a means for us (brothers & sisters in Christ) to FELLOWSHIP with one another & lift each other up spiritually.
With that in mind, I'd like to throw out a question that may point out the differences between us, and give a view as to how we can fellowship with each other. Simply put, how many of us are in churches that practice some form of Communion?
I'm not interested in getting into debates about the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine. The Catholic Church teaches that the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Jesus exists in the bread and wine that have been consecrated by the priest. It's what forms the basis of our worship: while we do have study and learning of the Word, the primary reason people go to Mass is worship G_D through the reception of Him through Holy Communion.
I understand that many of you view Communion as a symbolic act. What I'm interested in knowing is how often do your churches celebrate Communion? What do you use for the bread, and do you use wine or grape juice? Does sharing bread and wine among believers play ANY part in your faith?
Any answer is acceptable. I'm just trying to get a feel for people's feelings about the subject.
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
Jim,
Interesting that you brought that up. Just last night my husband and I were talking about the pros/cons of our current church (remember, I said we were thinking of looking around; well, 2 things have happened that might give us pause. 1, we went back to church for the first time in awhile and found that the message was fully rooted in the Word and there was an alter call at the end with the Gospel message clearly given. 2, the pastor who has been leading the alternative service Sun. PM which is geared to the unchurched in our area is parting ways with the church because they DON'T want to broaden his methods/style to the larger church as he had hoped. He is the pastor I was concerned about since he's reading a lot of emergent church material, accrdg. to his blog. So we think we'll attend over the summer and see if we're still feeling led to look around.)
Anyway, one of the things that bothers my husband is that the church (at least at the services we attend) doesn't hold Communion. It never dawned on me to wonder about it, but I'm planning to meet with one of the pastors and that will be on my list of things to ask. I really can't think of a reason except that the number of people attending is so large (several thousand each service.) They might hold it at another time and we haven't been exactly regular attenders since the kids were born, but now that we're getting back into a regular routine, we'd like to get clarification on it.
I'll be interested in learning what others have in their churches. Growing up Presby/Methodist, it was monthly w/ Presby and 4-6 yearly with Methodist.
Blessings,
Jen
Alesia,
What you seem to be saying is that you want us all to discuss "opinions", "interpretations", "traditions", things that we are "comfortable" with, provided it does not rock anyone's religion and tradition.
There is very little of "searching the scriptures" - you seem to be saying that you don't really want to do this.
We have been assaulted by "opinions" such as the "Earthquake Resurrection" book, the "Nephilim", "pre-wrath" rapture theory, etc., and expected to lap it all up and discuss it, apparently without either strongly disagreeing, or what seems to considered worse, presenting chapter and verse from Scripture as a basis to show that these topics may be dangerous bunny trails spiritually.
What you seem to advocating is as long as we do not present what the Word says (not an "opinion" or an "interpretation"), and only on the basis of what people "want" to talk about - as long as it lines up with their own traditional belief systems, it's OK.
From what others have said, THIS attitude is a key main reason so many don't post - either because they get no traction amongst us with their ideas and opinions (e.g pre-wrath, as an example), because some of us present Scripture to refute it, or, so it seems to me, they cannot seriously and considerately present, to the best of their ability, what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say, because it tramples on our "traditions" and "opinions".
Case in point - according to Joel, there are certain things we should expect "in the last days". One of these is the outpouring of Holy Spirit in signs and wonders across the world. Please, at least agree with that!!
We KNOW what that means - Peter explains it in Acts. Since Joel unequivocally says these things WILL occur in the "last days" - which I think we all take to mean NOW - meaning the pouring out of Holy Spirit, which Jesus makes clear is a necessary part of being a witness for Him for the "last days" (read "essential" in the sense you CANNOT be a witness without it) - you CANNOT legitimately say, that just because it makes you uncomfortable, or worse you don't believe it(in which case, logically, you do not believe we are in the "last days"), that it is a subject we should not learn and understand.
So, to say,
(1) that this (Baptism of Holy Spirit) is not an end-times topic, is to deny the very words of Scripture, including Jesus Himself;
(2) that you do not want or need it is to effectively tell God that something He says you NEED absolutely, you think you don't need, something that He says you MUST HAVE in order to be a witness for Him, is the very height of arrogance and pride
(3) to refuse to discuss or study the matter because of reasons 1) or 2) above, makes it plain you do NOT REALLY want to study the Scriptures, in order to make yourself approved of by God.
I know many will get up in arms, saying, "Who does he think he is? We don't need any teaching on the Word here - we want to discus our opinions."
Fine. But please, don't say you are serious about understanding the signs of the times and studying about end-time events, and what the Word says about these days, when, out of your own mouths (and fingers on the keyboard) you have declared it not to be so.
John
From the Back to Jerusalem Team
Dear Prayer Team,
Here is an update and points for prayer regarding BTJ's involvement with the relief efforts to the victims of the earthquake in China. We are focused particularly on the house-church families affected by this disaster in accordance with Galatians 6:10: ".let us do good.especially to those who belong to the family of Believers."
What BTJ is doing:
Emergency Tent/Supply Kits for families are being assembled and distributed through the house-churches and a sister organization in Asia. The kits contain tents that are 9 sq. meters (approx. 100 sq. feet) in size and substantially constructed. These tents can house a family and their belongings for as long as necessary.
· Basic supplies: including flashlights, cooking utensils, first aid supplies, hygiene kits and blankets.
Points for Prayer:
The greatest need right now is shelter. Sources say that over 5 Million people have lost their homes and most are still without shelter of any kind.
People are without basic survival supplies.
Pray for all those affected by these disasters. Pray that the Lord's hand will cover our brothers and sisters in Christ and that others will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus through the relief efforts of the house-churches.
Pray for the Lord's provision for the cost of the Emergency Kits. With over 5 million homeless, the amount of kits needed is so much greater than there are resources available.
Thank you for standing with our brothers and sisters in China through prayer during this time.
Your friends at Back To Jerusalem, Inc.
John, I thought your comment to Lisa etc was a little over the top and it appears that you have an axe to grind. I, for one, understand where you are coming from - I have been reading your blog. But what you are now doing is only causing more division. Please use a little balance for the sake of unity.
In Christ
mac
Calif. quake scientists detail impact of 'Big One'
Weeping for Tammuz
John and everyone else,
I apologies for asking John about speaking in tongues here in the cave, I'll restrict my further questions to John's blog. I was not my intend to cause so much discord.
Mike
Mac, point taken - I will cool it...my apologies (it is your blog!).
I did find this article helpful and relevant to our discussions here...
What Holly Thinks: Mistakes People Make When Studying the End Times
Please note that I do not agree wholeheartedly with Herb Peter's stance on the end-times - that we have already entered the 7-year period of Daniel's 70th week (he cannot defend himself anymore - he's gone to be with the Lord), but his daughter Holly Pivec, who is the author of this op-ed piece, has, I think, hit a large nail foursquare on the head.
John
Boatman,
I'm glad you posted the information on the Tenanch. I'll take a look at that aspect of the Nephilium after I get done w/the feasts of the Lord and also on the Torah Prophecies. (I can only do so much as once)
But my recent observation regarding what we discussed still stands as truth in my mind/spirit but may not be related to this Nephilim view if it's some wives tale. I did look into this Nephilim concept but am not sold on it.So before I post anything more on the topic I need to know what I'm talking about.
But that's not where I feel led to go at this point in time.
I read all your posting and can feel your frustration in it.
But John, we need to have some patience with one another.
If the Lord can have patience for me while I fart around 1/2 of my life then I can be patient w/my brothers & sisters in Christ. Praise the Lord I wasn't struck dead in the meantime.He had every right to do so.
I'm sure back in Jesus day not every follower of Christ was as finely tuned in as some of the apostles were. We are all suppose to strive and grow in the Word but everyone's pace is different.
And we are all not going to agree on the same things. That's why a Church usually breaks off and forms it's own identity doesn't it?
We have an unusual situation @ the cave where we can learn & share w/each other.
Who are you to judge who and who has not been Born Again and is filled w/the Holy Spirit?
Just because we don't agree with every detail you post means we aren't Spirit Filled?
What happened to Humility? Realizing that we don't know everything? Nor do we learn everything we need to know all at one time.
Your passionate about what you believe and try to get everyone to see your view. What have you posted lately on end time events?
The Holy Spirit will rain down in the end times and there will be a great Revival. Signs and wonders will abound. Everyone doing these great miracles in the name of Jesus are using God's power. We're going to battle Satan in the name of Jesus and win many converts.
Sorry I don't buy all of it. And neither do some of the Revival belivers nor some of the Charismatics. That in it's self should tell you something. The only part I do believe is that there will be/is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
We've all read the false teachers, false Christs, warning, warning, warning. Then you want to tell me it does't apply until the Anti-Christ comes. Give me a break.
Instead you basically say we have made ourselves the "end time" example by not listening to you.
We can't understand the true meaning in the scripture because we don't have the power of the Holy Spirit to open our eyes.
Your quote:
" but never personal, reasoned, thoughtful deep study of the word of God - open to correction, new ideas, or even fresh (to you) revelation."
Oh yeah? When I give you a revelation which does not match your own you basically tell me I that I did it wrong & must have contacted Satan. What kind of open minded-open to correction,new ideas or fresh revelation is this?
You gave no consideration to what I had to say what-so-ever. It was immediately shut down. Why? Because you think you know it all. Your Spiritual Mind is so much more intuned w/the Word than the pawns @ the cave.
Please, take your own advice to heart before you preach to us about it.
If you do that-you might convince some more cave dwellers to listen to you.
It's the meek, humble & honest hearted that God typically chooses to use for the Kingdom work. Not the prideful and arrogant.
And yes, as you can tell I am frustrated with you.
(I apologize in advance-that was not a picture of tolerance and patience on my part.I started out patient then the more I thought about it-the faster the ball started rolling downhill.)
Lisa
Jen...there are several thousand people at each service?? WOW!!!
That's huge!!!
Lisa, I am guessing that you may not have read John's last post before your post?
Jim, do you know if there are any other denominations that also believe the priest literally changes the bread/wafer info Jesus' literal body and blood?
Episcapalians (sp is off on that I'm sure) seem similar to Catholics, do they, for example, believe this, too? Just wondering.
Now..let's all take a few DEEP breaths, and say some prayers that we will all play nicely!
:)
There is lots going on and we need to stay on top of things!
Two great news articles!! Very uplifting...and do we need it!
(Sorry, I don't blue...)
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=7932226&ch=4226713&src=news
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080521/ap_on_fe_st/odd_flight_prayer;_ylt=AmgF.S1mDCeNUP69csSGk_Ks0NUE
Grace
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080521/ap_on_fe_st/odd_flight_prayer;_ylt=AmgF.S1mDCeNUP69csSGk_Ks0NUE
trying again...keeps cutting off
Jim Carroll,
In both the Churches I attend they have Communion once per month on the 1st weekend.The congregations are around 2000-4000 in size ea.
It's grape juice and I think it's an oyster cracker.
They say the whole traditional "Take eat.This is my body......"
The SD church the kids don't partake. The TN church it's Family Sunday so the eldest daughter sits through the service and has Communion.
(When I was a kid living below the convent one of my nun friends took me to the basement where they actually made the wafers. I thought that was pretty neat!)
Can't they do some type of MRI scan to verify for the Catholics that it "actually" turns into Jesus blood & body? Pump out the stomach? Or is this a really dumb thought?
It's more of a supernatural thought of blood/body than a material one?
I did see that article, John. Holly does keep her finger on the pulse.
Wow. We are in desperate need of some prayers in the cave....
I dont feel confident enough in my knowledge to pretend I can debate anyone in this cave. I have no problem being honest about that!!! But I stumbled across Joels blog after reading his books, fell in love with many of you through your teaching and posting, etc---and am so very grateful for all of you! But as someone who is hungry for the word, I must say that when someone sounds harsh or demeaning...or if I feel like a thought I might have makes some on here GASP in horror---that's when I find myself feeling very "naked" and uncomfortable in these surroundings. (Which trust me, isnt a pretty sight these days!)
Ugh!!! Please--everyone should be praying very hard for discernment here.....myself included...
Hey all,
Two thoughts
First, On the discord recently experienced here... Be on guard against it, as I have found the closer we get to the end of the race, the more we become a target for the evil one. Wouldn't he love to disrupt a group of inter-demoninational believers scattered across the nation and back side of the world (Mac?) and cause division to rise up within us? I think John felt this too, judging by his response. I was always taught it takes a big man (or woman) to apologise. Well done, Brother
Next,
Jim, every church I have been a part of (not a visitor) has taken communion in a extremely serious way, with appropriate time for self-examination and use of the Last Room words quoted. Most strongly discouraged children from taking the host but left it up to the the parents to decide at which age the kid understood the significance. All Protestant churches I've been in use grape juice and either bread, dried bread or some form of wafer. As for the Episcopal's, it so happens my wife and I were married Episcopal and their underlying doctrine is true trans-substantiation like the RC's, at least in the views of the priest who married up. The slight differences in his and my views didn't stop him from marrying my wife and I. Also, I've taken the Host dozen's of times in Catholic churches, when visiting with my sister-in-laws, and felt it equal in the act of worship.
Knowing your love of history may I recommend "Early Christian Writings", the works of Polycarp, Ignatius, and others. They had very clear views of the unity of the Body of Christ that have altered my thoughts a lot lately.
Love in Christ to all, and as usual,
In His Grip,
Scott
Yes, prayers are in order for us all. I've seen discord here and elsewhere on a couple of other sites - even at the Omega Letter at times. I'm wondering if it might be a good idea for some of us to do a one day fast in the next week. I must confess that I had intended to but didn't. Scott is right, Satan does have Christians in his sight. Let's all pray.
Donna, Shalom! You wrote:
Jim, do you know if there are any other denominations that also believe the priest literally changes the bread/wafer info Jesus' literal body and blood?
All of the Orthodox Churches share the same view of the Eucharist as the Catholics do. The Episcopalian Church claims to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine; however, reading further, they apparently believe that Christ is only spiritually present, not physically present.
Lutherans believe in "Consubstantiation". Catholics and the Orthodox Churches believe in "Transubstantiation", that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Jesus while keeping the "accidents" of bread and wine -- taste, texture, etc., all the adjectives we use to describe the world around us. Lutherans believe that the bread and wine are the Body and Blood in addition to being bread and wine. It may be a subtle difference, but important: When communion is finished in the Lutheran Church, the leftover bread and wine become bread and wine again. In the Catholic view, the consecrated bread and wine remain the Body and Blood of Christ, for all time until consumed and digested or properly disposed of by the clergy.
As far as I know, all other Christian churches believe that Communion is symbolic only.
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
Alesia,
I agree with what you said 100%.
When Jesus was on earth, there were many great qualities He modeled and that He expects us to mirror. There was His love, forgiveness, patience, grace, mercy, etc. These qualities are often discussed even at liberal churches, with a heavy emphasis on His love (of course).
However, I think the quality that He demonstrated the most and maybe the one that is most important for us to mirror as Christ followers is humility.
Jesus was and is king of the universe. He is actually even higher than that as He created the universe and everything in it.
Despite that, He humbled himself to the point of being put to death on the cross for us, even though we are a bunch of unworthy wretches who deserve to spend an eternity in Hell.
Despite having little to feel proud about in my life, it never ceases to amaze me how badly I act in many situations. Reflecting back, I realize how much my pride got in the way of me portraying a Christlike attitude. I should have been humble, but I got all "amped up" and acted like a jerk.
Just about any sin we commit can trace its origins back to pride. Pride is what is going to keep most people out of heaven. I see it all the time when I try to witness to people. They are way too proud to submit to Christ. Pride was what caused Satan to fall.
As we all know, pride is just as big a problem for Christ followers as it is for those who are lost. I struggle daily with pride and I have to pray continually for humility.
As Christ followers, we should all be known for our humility.
The thing that bothers me the most about some of our posts is the lack of humility in the way many of them are presented. I may not agree with the content of a lot of posts, but I can deal with that if it is presented with an air of humility.
I am just as guilty as anybody else on this blog. I am pointing several fingers back at myself.
It is one thing to talk about spiritual gifts, those who have certain gifts, those that don't have them and how to get them etc. However, these gifts are all worthless if we don't have humility!
Of all the believers I look up to in my life, the ones that I admire the most and consider to be the most spiritually mature are the ones who are humble. These are the people I want to model my life after. I know a lot of believers who are very intelligent, those that are great speakers, those that are very musically talented, etc., but if they don't have humility, I really question their spiritual maturity.
God Bless,
Harold
Overcomer here. I just posted a web album of some images I shot at a local park in our area. Just click on my name and then on Shutterblog. You will see a link to the entire album from there. I pray the images will uplift your hearts to the Creator.
Kathy - You knew just what I needed!
Thanks so much for sharing those - nature pictures always have a calming effect on me.
Is it ok if I download a few of those, just to have on my computer? Me promise to do nothing beyond that with them.
Harold - Thanks! I agree completely with you as well.
I'm glad that someone understood my feeble attempt at communicating what I was trying to say!
Yes Alesia. Enjoy them! That is what they are for.
I heard a rabbi who recognizes Yahshua is the Messiah speak on the radio this afternoon.
He echoed something that I believe we have heard from a number of end time scholars lately. Namely, that Jerusalem is the epicenter or focus of all that will take place in the last days.
Joel clearly made this point with his book.
The point was made again by Holly in the article posted by John (boatman909) at May 22, 2008 4:52 PM What Holly Thinks: Mistakes People Make When Studying the End Times
Then this rabbi that I heard speak on the radio this afternoon said the same thing. In order to properly understand the end times, we need to recognize that Jerusalem is the epicenter.
Here’s a link to an
end times teaching series he has posted on the web. It is broken up into 29 parts. Go straight to part 29 and read about THE FINAL END TIME BEAST.
Here’s a link to
his ministry’s doctrinal statement. Look what he has to say about “Allah” being mentioned by name in Daniel 9:11. I realize that chapters and verses were not in the original manuscript (or is the correct term autograph?), but isn’t the 911 reference to Allah interesting?
Jim G.
Lisa, Shalom! You wrote:
It's grape juice and I think it's an oyster cracker.
Oyster cracker???! pu-LEEse! The least you could do is use matzoh!
You don't find many churches that roll their own hosts anymore. There are a few commercial bakeries that specialize in making communion wafers in a variety of styles, including whole wheat and gluten-free.
Can't they do some type of MRI scan to verify for the Catholics that it "actually" turns into Jesus blood & body? Pump out the stomach? Or is this a really dumb thought?
If you were to take a consecrated host and subject it to scientific tests (with the approval of the local bishop), you would find that it is bread. This is because the host has changed its "substance" into the Body of Christ but is exhibiting the "accidents" of being bread. (Sorry, I'm nodding off to sleep now. Ask tomorrow if you want a more in-depth explanation. Not TOO in depth, but more than I can give now.)
There have been quite a few Eucharistic Miracles throughout history -- miracles where the bread and wine did turn into flesh and blood. You can read more about them here. Perhaps the most famous is in Lanciano, Italy, back in 780AD, where after the consecration, the host changed to flesh and the wine turned into blood. The flesh and blood have been kept in a display for 1300 years, with no visible deterioration. The most recent scientific tests were done in 1970 where it showed that the flesh was human cardiac (heart) tissue; the blood was human blood with markers to indicate the person was in agony; that the blood type in both the flesh and the blood was type AB (universal recipient).
'Night, all!
<><
Jim,
I've just looked the link to the Rabbi's teaching on "allah"....
Um!! I looked up the original Hebrew text for Daniel 9:11.
I think this is another case of making a supposition, based on the sound of a single word - in Hebrew (romanised) e-alah or -eaw-law - the e- is the definite article "the".
It's literal meaning is
an imprecation:--curse, cursing, execration, oath, swearing, so we have the meaning in English of "the curse" or "the imprecation".
The Concordant Literal Version of Daniel 9:11 - a version that is the nearest, still readable English form to the original text, reads:
All Israel--they trespass against Thy law to withdraw so as not to hearken to Thy voice. Hence pouring forth on us is the imprecation and the oath which is written in the law of Moses, the servant of Elohim; for we sin against Him.
There is problem with taking a single word, and using the fact that it sounds like a word we are familiar with today, make a whole doctrine out of this to say that the AC comes from Islam, is highly risky - and not good theology.
In this case the Hebrew word is used 5 times in the OT (with the definitive article as a prefix, meaning a specific, identifiable curse), and with particular reference to Daniel 9:11, is used by God in Deuteronomy 29 three times and in Numbers 5:21.
"The Curse" and "the Oath" in the Mosaic law is described in Deuteronomy 28 -29. Daniel 9:11 is obviously referring to this curse in Deuteronomy 28:15-68 and the oath that God swore in Deuteronomy 29:15-29, that if Israel sinned, He would send, amongst other things, "all the plagues and sickness" on them that He had sent on their enemies.
I cannot see how one can legitimately use this, as it appears that the Rabbi has done, to build a whole mountain out of it about the AntiChrist and Allah - the god of Islam.
He also quotes from Jeremiah 30, saying that the Tribulation is the time of Jacob's Trouble. However, if you actually take the time to read it, you see the whole chapter relates to a prophecy that God gave Jeremiah, foretelling the return of the people of Israel to the land of Israel, following a period of very great terror - Jacobs' Trouble.
Now, if I am not mistaken, the Jews have already come back to the restored land of Israel, in 1948, and just before they did, 6 million died in the Nazi death camps. My limited knowledge of this event, based on what I have personally seen, the Jews I have spoken to who survived, the stories of people like Corrie Ten Boom, my sister's godmother who lost all the male members of her family to the concentration camps - not because they were Jews, but because they stood up to Hitler (her father was a Lutheran minister), I would say the description in Jeremiah 30 is a very graphic and accurate one.
In addition, the Rabbi makes this quote (on the first page of the article):
once we understand there’s no
such thing as the rapture
Oh, since when?
Daniel very clearly tells us that the AC will be from the people that destroy the Temple - which we know was, in actuality, the Romans.
In the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, concerning his statue, Daniel clearly shows us that the last great empire to arise would be the Roman Empire (NOT the Ottoman Empire), and that it would fade away and rise again "in the last days", as a combination of "strong" and "weak" nations. The ONLY major power that fits that description is the European Union. Notably, the decision making powers and control of the whole of EU remains in the hands of a 10 nation confederacy, which includes Greece (as of 1995), known as the Western European Union - WEU
Daniel does however say that AC himself will come from the vestiges of the Grecian empire, that was swallowed up by the Romans - limiting the geographic area to those nation states that lie within the intersection of the old Roman Empire and the boundaries of Alexander the Great's empire, which also fall now within the boundaries of the revived Roman Empire - the EU, together with those nation states aligned with it by what we now know are part of the European Neighborhood Policy - see map on the first page of the official website.
So, I've touched on less than the first page of this Rabbi's teaching and identified a number of serious issues, that call into question his approach
So, once again, you see the danger of building a doctrine out of a single word.
What concerns me is how easy it is to verify (or otherwise) someone's interpretations, ideas and doctrines against the Word, without reference to any other documents, and yet so few people seem to be willing to take the time....
John
John,
I appreciate the thoughtful insight and feedback.
It is interesting that the word "curse" is from a word that we would pronounce 'alah' or something like that.
I have often believed that Scripture often (though not always) is can contain several meanings (not contradictory of course). What I mean is that God's Word is so rich that if He chooses, He can say something that has not just one meaning but two or three and they are all true. I'm not saying that God ever contradicts himself, only that some things can be fullfilled multiple ways. Perhaps it is a foreshadowing and then an ultimate fullfillment. Perhaps at other times it is simply fullfilled or true in more ways than one.
I didn't mean to imply that I believed or endorsed everything the rabbi said. I certainly can agree with much in his doctrinal statement but perhaps not all.
Anyway, I think it is good to learn from others who know and love the Lord and I appreciate your comments. Keep 'em coming.
Your brother in Christ,
Jim G.
Any thoughts on this (from page 5 of the rabbi's end times teaching)?
"11 And I looked and another beast another beast - Revival of radical
Islamic religion/Jihad came up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb,
This end time beast is divided between Sunnis and Shiites. And to top it all off he declares the beast Islam to be a religion and
culture of PEACE! Comes as a lamb!
and he spoke as a dragon.
Islam looks like a religion of peace to the world and the mainstream media, but the false prophet Mohammed established it in innocent blood. The final generation will see the teachings of the false prophet Mohammed in the Koran causing more and more people to worship the beast marked by the name of Allah, and deceive many unsuspecting into thinking that the false prophet is really a lamb of peace propagating a religion of peace. In Mecca based Islam one cannot separate the political from the religious, as both are intertwined into one, and thus both the beast and the false prophet speak a political message,
fueled by spiritual fervor."
Jim G.
Looks like a lot of great posts!
Mac, I am wondering about the fasting. I know people fast in different ways...some from evening to the next evening. How do you suggest doing so?
I love hearing Messianic Jews take on things. I will definitely look those posts up.
Harold, I love your post about humility.
Holly's stuff looks great, too.
Thanks so much!
Thank you all so much!
jim c,
Man it is strange having two Jims here now? Welcome Jim G!
jim c,
I ran across the following article and I would like to know what your thoughts are on it:
A Catholic Wind in the White House
Thanks,
Harold
Harold--Loved your post on humility and could not agree with you more.
Jim.Carroll---do you have an email where you can be reached---??
Jim,
Oyster cracker???! pu-LEEse! The least you could do is use matzoh!
Does matzoh look like an oyster cracker?
Lisa
be praying for the past,present future conference that is going on right now in Tucson. thousands are to be attending and Joel is giving the talk on the final night which is tomorrow.
Lisa
no matzo is different than oyster crackers. matzo is unleavened for starters plus they look different. we use grape juice and these little white squares.
we celebrate communion once a month. I do find it interesting however that the early church seems to have celebrated communion every time they go to together-read that somewhere-likely from Frucht.
Lisa
could you give me your email address via my blog-I did try to send you an email via the health club and I did get your message that you hadn't receive it. I won't share your address with anyone
Hey, I just learned something!
Yeah, what are they doing using oyster crackers? If they are puffed up they have leaven in them.
Reading on the Jewish feasts they explained all this-and how leaven represents sin and @ Passover they sweep the house out to get rid of any traces of leaven and so forth.
So if we are representing the body of Christ in the bread it should be unleaven bread.
Really, with some of these Churches the attitude is too casual. At least research the tradition of the Jewish people and incorporate some of the traditions.
UGGGGGG! Show some respect.
(See, what you don't know doesn't bother you. Now I'm irritated)
Lisa
Our example from the Master Teacher and Lord Jesus Christ:
Matthew 26:26-29 - And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
Mark 14:22-25 - And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. And he said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
Luke 22:14-20 - When the hour had come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. Then he said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.”
These words from the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ took bread – actual bread which He broke and handed to His disciples to take a portion and pass on to another and as they partook of it they were admonished to ‘eat of Him’ (consume Him-my understanding) in like manner as they were to ‘eat’ the actual bread. Then our Lord took the cup of the fruit of the vine – actual juice, whether fermented or not, it was real juice from the fruit of the vine; and as they partook it the cup they were admonished to ‘drink of His blood’ (take/receive His blood for the remission of our sin) in like manner as they were to ‘drink’ the actual ‘fruit of the vine.’
In my simple mind, the interpretation of this is clear. Since they were eating the Passover meal, the bread would have been made without yeast; therefore, it would be wise that the bread we use for communion also be unleavened whatever the ‘shape’ of the bread (loaf baked and then broken into pieces or baked as single units). I don’t know if the wine used was juice in its simplest form, fermented enough to become ‘vinegar-y’, or wine (as we understand wine to be).
Also, our Lord Jesus did not leave us implicit instructions when or how often we are to partake of the communion merely that we are to partake of it and as we do so, we are to remember what He taught His disciples during His last supper with them and what each element symbolized.
In my church communion is partaken on Sunday evenings once a month (I believe the first Sunday evening). I’m sure there are some who will question why not on Sunday mornings; why just once a month, etc. But again…there are no wrong times…or the Lord Jesus Christ would have given more implicit instructions, wouldn’t He?
Also, let's not forget the 'cup' that Jesus took up after the supper as spoken of in the Luke passage, "Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.” (Was this not the cup that was always placed on each Passover table, called 'Elijah's cup'? I haven't done any study regarding this, but I have heard some mention of the cup of Elijah.)
Blessings! (Mary)
thanks lisa-sent an email your way
otherwise
I have seen this presentation given at church around the time of Easter or Passover one and it was most illuminating. It is a telling of the original Passover and what each thing symbolized and how it has ultimate fulfillment in Christ and it is a stunning retelling of communion which I would think would have to be a reasonably accurate portrayal of the nuances of the Last Supper as celebrated by Christ and the Apostles. It is I think a 40 minutes video
Seder and Last Supper
Shalom, all!
JCChick, you can reach me at jim DOT carroll2 AT gmail DOT com. I'm munging the address to keep webbots from picking the address up and using it for spam. This is the Gmail address I got when I got my blue name. You don't have to set up a blog to get a blue name, just a Gmail account. Of course, once you have the Gmail account, they throw in Blogger, YouTube, etc. I never use the account, and just checked and found the spammers haven't found it yet. If you send me an email there, then (after verifying) I'll send you my home email address.
Lisa, matzo (or matzoh -- I've seen it spelled both ways) is unleavened bread used during Passover. It's usually available year-round, because it tastes good! It's also popular because you can crush it, mix it with some eggs and chicken fat, roll into balls, and drop the balls into the pot with the chicken and vegetables you're cooking for soup, and you have matzo ball soup. Crackers usually have soda or some other leavening agent mixed in, but for Passover (and Holy Communion) you can't use ANY leavening agent. If you live in a large enough city you should be able to find it at the grocery store.
Harold, I saw that editorial when it first came out. I thought it was very interesting, but unconvincing. By that I mean, I don't know if Bush enacted his policies with an idea of true belief (i.e., this is the way things should work because I believe this is how G_D wants them to work) or if he's using "the lens of Rome" as a way to establish a "lowest common denominator" among Christians. For example, it's hard to find Christian Believers that are in favor of embryonic stem cell research based on a reading of Scripture. Those that do tend to be in churches that preach "compassion" in terms of removing the consequences of actions instead of "compassion" in terms of helping people accept and deal with the consequences of their actions. By going for a "lowest common denominator" (LCD) approach using Catholicism as the LCD, you can grab conservatives who can support the goals while differing on the actions needed to achieve the goals.
Boatman, I agree about having to be careful when dealing with languages. I remember reading that Mormon missionaries working in parts of China have to be careful not to use the name "Mormon", since "Mormon" in some Chinese dialects is the name of the god of the underworld. I do not know if this is the case and I have no way of verifying it, which is what would make it a very effective piece of anti-Mormon propaganda.
Having said that, I think we need to be cautious in that we don't apply modern mindset with ancient languages. Today, if I were to say that I was going to New York, most people would assume I meant New York City. It is only by listening to the context that the listener would know if I meant New York CITY or New York STATE. English is a language that requires that you specify talking about a city or a region. Ancient languages (Latin and Hebrew among them) did not make any such distinction: you didn't speak about the "Roman Empire" or "the city of Rome"; it was ALL Rome. So to say that the Antichrist will be from the people that destroy the Temple, you're not talking about people limited to the geography around the city of Rome, or people from Italy in general. You're talking about the people of ROME, meaning anyone in what we now call the Roman Empire who was a citizen of that empire.
Personally, I believe the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream refers to Istanbul, which bridges the East and the West, having one foot planted firmly on each side of the Bosporus.
<><
Jib, Shalom! Praying for the conference and for Joel. I'll be watching the video in a couple of minutes -- Thanks! Just wanted to get this message off and to expand on something Mary said in her Gospel quotes.
In Luke's account, Jesus says "...do this in remembrance of me." The Hebrew word that is translated as "remembrance" has a much deeper significance than just a memorial. It was used to describe what the Jews did when celebrating the Passover. In the Jewish belief at the time, when they shared the Passover meal, they were not eating it separately from everyone at a specific time and place, thinking about what their ancestors did. When they shared the Passover meal, they were also sharing it with Moses and the Israelites at the same time, and with all the Passover Meals that were shared since Moses and all the Passover Meals to come. An unbroken line of communion and community shared by all the Chosen People.
<><
Thanks Jim Dot--- :)
I left you an email!
Today's Quote
Live so that when your children think of fairness, caring and integrity, they think of you.
-H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Jib, Shalom! Thanks for the "Seder and Last Supper" link -- it was really enjoyable! (As well as eye-opening!)
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
Thanks for all your communion input today. I've seen the unleaven bread in the Jewish Aisle as the Grocery Store. I always see these things and think "how interesting" but don't know what to do with the ingredients.
And don't think I won't be having my eyeballs on that cracker @ the next communion. (I'll take a picture of it @ post it on my blog)
Lisa
Jim Carroll
you said:
Personally, I believe the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream refers to Istanbul, which bridges the East and the West, having one foot planted firmly on each side of the Bosporus.
Daniel says:
“But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these:
This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. “This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
....
This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. [Babylon] But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours [Medes and Persians - present day Iran - see Daniel 5:28]; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth [Greece, under Alexander the Great]. “And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron [Roman Empire], inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.
Conclusion: The last great empire was, and will be Rome - Rome has never been defeated, it's power and influence just faded away until the present time...
Another dream of Daniel, providing more information about the last days...:
In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts.
Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings [Babylon]. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it [Belshazzar was King Nebuchadnezzar's son, who ruled at the same time as his father]. And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear [Medes and the Persians]. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’ “After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird . The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it [Greece, under Alexander the Great, and then his four generals, who took over when he died suddenly at the young age of 32]. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet [The Roman Empire]. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
Conclusion: The last great empire was, and will be Rome - Rome has never been defeated, it's power and influence just faded away until the present time... It will give rise to a revived empire, based on the same geographical area, but under the rule of 10 kings (horns)
[see Daniel 2:40-43; 7:23-26].
The WEU came into being just after the State of Israel was reborn - the key prophetic marker [Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:29] that the "last days" have really begun, and the countdown to the return of the Lord Jesus has started. It's manifestation was the beginning of the creation of the EU (see link above). This group of 10 kings run the EU today.
The dream continues:
“I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words [The person who becomes the Antichrist].
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
[The Last Judgment - see Revelation 19-
:11-16, 20:4, 11-15]
“I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame [see Revelation 19:20]. “As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
Here we see the final victory by Jesus over the forces of evil, under the command of the Antichrist, and His establishment of the Millennial Reign of Christ on the earth.
Daniel has yet another vision - see Daniel Ch 8 (it's too long to post here, but, in essence, it just confirms the previous two dreams, and give more specific details. about them).
Key points:
v3: The ram with two horns represents the Medo-Persian kings Darius and Cyrus.
v5: the he-goat represents Alexander the Great, and the Greek empire he forged
v8: this predicts Alexander's sudden demise. He is replaced by 4 of his generals, who divided the kingdom between them (Cassander, Lysimacus, Seleucus and Ptolemy).
v9-11 Out of this situation came Antiochus Epiphanes (from Syria) - the anti-type (fore-runner) of the Antichrist, who defiled the Jewish Temple at some point during 171-164BC.
Daniel's vision then jumps forward to the days of the real Antichrist - see v11-14.
The rest of Ch8 concerns the angelic visitation that Daniel receives, in order to help him understand the portent of the vision. The angel focuses on the very last of the last days, and describes in more detail the rise to power and rule of the Antichrist himself, giving a detailed time line of what will happen during the last 7 years before Jesus returns.
(If you are not convinced that the ram and he-goat are as represented here, you should read v20-21 of Ch 8. The angel actually tells Daniel who they will be - the ram with two horns is the Medo-Persian empire, the male goat the ruler of a Greek empire, followed by his four generals. He also shows Daniel about the the forerunner of the Antichrist, and how long Antiochus Ephinanes will remain in power after defiling the temple (2300 days).
So, you can see there is no reason to consider any other "interpretation".
Finally, we come to Daniel's last major vision, concerning what is commonly called "Daniel's 70 Weeks" - Daniel Ch 9. Here the angel clearly explains that the vision applies to the people of Israel (NOT the whole world)- and that the Messiah would come after another 490 years (4BC?), and that the Holy City, Jerusalem would be destroyed for a season - which was just as Jesus also predicted, and which occurred in AD70, when the Romans leveled it - confirming absolutely that the "prince who is to come" (Ch 10:26), the Antichrist, would be raised up from out of this revived Roman empire at the end of days.
However, the remaining 7 years (2520 days according to the Jewish calendar, but since only years and not days are mentioned, it could be 37-8 days more than this according to our current Gregorian calendar) - would occur after Jerusalem was rebuilt - the text literally says "the squares and walls will be built again - but in troublesome times" - which we know started in 1948, but really began in earnest after 1967, when Israel took back control over Jerusalem for the first time in almost 2000 years.
The angel even says that, concerning Jerusalem and Israel, "even to the end there shall be war and desolations be decreed" - which has continued to be true ever since.
This last seven years would commence when the "prince" out of the revived Roman Empire would "confirm [or strengthen] a covenant with many" . To "confirm" or "strengthen" a covenant, it has to be already in place. It could be that this refers to the European Neighborhood Policy (ENP), but it might be a peace treaty with Israel's neighbors - it's not clear. In any case both seem to be possible right now, given the situation in the ME.
The angel then explains that the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14, would be placed in the Temple halfway through this 7 year period - implying that the 3rd Temple will be built by then.
Daniel is very distressed by these visions, and by their explanation, so he cries our to God for more understanding.
In Ch 11 we see that Daniel receives another angelic visitor, who comes to give even more revelation concerning the dreams and visions. Much of Ch 11 is concerned with the events that lead up to the rule of Antiochus Epiphanes (the AC anti-type, who, because of Jesus' words, cannot be the AC himself, as some would have us believe), but at the end of the chapter it becomes clear that the angel is also referring to the rise (and defeat) of the Antichrist by Jesus Himself.
You need to be familiar with the history of the ME during the period from 500-4BC, to clearly understand and see how accurate the predictions given to Daniel actually were.
Lastly, according to Daniel 12:11, it would appear that Temple worship, complete with the daily sacrifice, must start some time before or just after the start of the confirming of the 7 year covenant, because the angel tells Daniel that the daily sacrifice will be "taken away" and the "abomination of desolation" set up midway through the 7 year covenant period, and that things will reach a climax 1290 days after that (that's just over 3 and half years), with a final promise that those who wait until the 1335th day will be blessed (v11-12).
So, it seems clear that the AC comes from some location that falls within the territory that was under the rule of the 4 generals that succeeded Alexander the Great, but within territory that is connected politically and economically with the revived Roman Empire - the EU (see the ENP map showing the economic and political reach of the EU at this time here.
It's all very straightforward.... you don't need to be confused, or wonder about where the AC comes from, and whether the EU is the revived Roman Empire or not, it's all in the Word.
John
HI John....the conclusions you wrote about seem likely.
With all the recent talk about the Anti-Christ being a Moslem, I checked in with Jack Kelley's site a while back who responded to questions about this matter:
The Nationality Of The Anti-Christ
Ask a Bible Teacher
Q. I have a question about Daniel 9:26 and the nationality of the anti-Christ. I should explain that I was reading about kings of north and south and it appeared to me that you were presenting the possibility of a Muslim anti-Christ. I thought from Daniel 9:26 that he will be Roman/European. Could you elaborate on this?
A. The possibility of a Moslem anti-Christ is consistent with Daniel 9:26. Remember in Daniel 2:32-33 where the statue representing Gentile Dominion is first described, the two legs of iron represented the Roman Empire. There was a western leg with Rome as its capital that included most of western Europe. For a long time western commentators only considered that portion of the Empire in their explanations of Daniel 9:26.
But with the rise of Islam, they're remembering that it also had an eastern leg whose capital was Constantinople (Istanbul) and that was made up of the countries in the Middle East who are Moslem today. Someone from the Eastern leg could just as easily fulfill Daniel 9:26 as someone from the West.
Then in another article he ads:
"For many years scholars have assumed that the city on 7 hills is Rome, capitol of the Western leg of the Roman Empire. But the capitol of the Eastern leg is also known as a city on 7 hills. It's Istanbul, formerly known as Constantinople. The Eastern leg of the Old Roman Empire is made up of countries that follow Islam today, and the one that some believe is their messiah, al-Mahdi, bears a striking resemblance to the anti-Christ."
Here is an update on the Florida Revival, from Charisma Magazine, as of yesterday...
Lakeland Outpouring Reaches 50-Day Milestone
John
A very well respected leader in the Spirit filled church movement, Dr Dutch Sheets, has this to say about the Florida Revival..
I believe Todd Bentley has true gifts of healing and an anointing for miracles...I believe people are getting healed and saved...I do have some points of wisdom that should be considered in order for the fruit to continue and remain.
You can listen to the MP3 audio of his full message here.
John
P.S. my only comment is that for these "gifts" to manifest and produce the results indicated, then it is not so much that Todd Bentley has the gifts himself - a common misapprehension of what the Word teaches, but that, as an anointed evangelist, he is used by Holy Spirit to operate in the manifestations of such things as healings and miracles (as per 1 Corinthians 12:11), as one would expect if Todd truly was an evangelist appointed by Jesus according to Ephesians 4:11-12. As Todd Bentley says himself:
“Sometimes I think people think that I think that I know what I’m doing,” he said Tuesday 20 May. “But what God does is sovereign. I wish I could duplicate things, or just turn on the miracles, but I can’t.”
There is a whole 'nother issue concerning the New Apostolic Reformation led by Peter C. Wagner, of which Dutch Sheets seems to be apart of.
I think this whole movement is completely out of line with God's will - there is NOTHING in Scripture that requires the pastor of a local church be under an "apostle", especially if that "so called apostle" has had nothing whatsoever to do with that pastor's ministry or the building up of his church (the people not the buildings). This is to my mind, another manifestation of the dreadful "shepherding" movement of the 1980's resurfacing.
It's all about power and control, not a true move of God. It is almost the opposite extreme of the Emergent Church philosophy, which boils down to there being no need for pastors and other full time ministers - we can all do it as a Body without any leadership, going "house to house". Yeah, right!
Why do we always fall into the ditch on either side of the "narrow" road, instead of taking a balanced, middle of road position??
Lisa, Shalom! You wrote (about the matzoh):
I've seen the unleaven bread in the Jewish Aisle as the Grocery Store. I always see these things and think "how interesting" but don't know what to do with the ingredients.
Well, for one thing, matzo is really good with a little jam, or with a thin slice of cheese and a little meat. (But not ham. Show some respect for the food, please!) For another, if you can find it, get the matzo ball soup mix and follow the directions here: A MATZO BALL SOUP TO MAKE THE BUBBES KVELL AND SHIKSAS PLOTZ. Trust me on this: a good matzo ball soup is this side of heaven.
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
From the Charisma article on the Florida Revival I a link to posted earlier..
Another case involves a woman in West Virginia who had three heart attacks last Saturday, but was revived after family members had made the decision to pull her breathing tube. The woman’s niece, Darla Pence, told Charisma she received prayers of “healing, revival and restoration for your family” one week prior to her aunt’s heart attacks from someone who had been to Lakeland.
From FoxNews...
Woman Wakes After Heart Stopped, Rigor Mortis Set In
You can make what you want of it...
John
Lisa, Shalom! I left a message for you on your blog.
<><
Here you go-everyone can go the Florida annointing at the Airport and go fly on the plane and spread it around to all the passengers.
That's just what I want to be exposed to!
As for me- I'll be heading for the hills.
"This Friday and Saturday, the Florida Revival will be at the Lakeland Linder Regional Airport!
We are taking this revival to open-air meetings. It is Christ-a-palooza! Better than Woodstock; its GODstock!
Just like Africa, the people who are hungry for a move of God are too numerous to keep inside.
Bring your lawn chair.
Bring your passion.
Bring a worshipping heart, because we are celebrating this outpouring of the Holy Spirit at the City Airport on Friday and Saturday. On Sunday, May 11th, we will be taking the Florida Revival back to the Lakeland Center. We will then be planted there for 14 days!
Lisa - Your chosen blue name isn't for nothing huh?
Thanks, but I think I'll pass. Amongst obvious reasons, I have vowed to NEVER step foot in Florida, ever again. So if anyone lives there, don't invite me to your house! LOL
Sid's Supernatural TV Show
I don't know too much about TV Evalgelists but this Sid character has now teemed up with Todd Bentley.
Sid's video started up and I couldn't watch that either.
On his prayer page I think he's getting really excited about his new "Annointing" and thinks that this will boost his TV ratings and pull him up to a #1 spot.
I've spent some more time reading Todd Bentley's material.
I'm understanding even more now because after his origional "Alien Encounter" type testimony he has also been traveling to the several "Layers of Heaven". Now this particular part of his experience "Looks Good" on the outside "Seems what you would think of Heavenly" but there are some pecarious details intwined in this experience as well. In another article he will give you several "Keys" or "Points" to be able to go to the 3rd heaven and beyond. Here are some quotes:
"This is an hour like none other. Instead of a Western Hemisphere waiting to be discovered, there is a heavenly hemisphere or heavenly realms waiting for exploration by those who dare. As a matter of fact, in the natural, outer space has been probed by gutsy astronauts for about four decades—beginning about seven years before I was born! Perhaps some of you might remember the famous words of “ground-breaker” astronaut Neil Armstrong as he set foot on the moon’s surface [July 21, 1969]—“That’s one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind!”
Wow! Those courageous explorers and astronauts discovered new realms, and yet—don’t miss this—there is more “out there” that God wants us to discover and understand. In fact, today, there is a new breed of believers that God is raising up who have the same DNA as the explorers and the astronauts! These new pioneers are about to take a giant leap into new heavenly realms that for the most part have been unexplored, except by a few. This is God’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes.
God’s works and His ways are unendingly awesome! A whole new dimension is opening up for those who love the Lord, who are in the right position. Remember last week I shared that heaven is more real to me now than it’s ever been; all because I’ve been there! I’ve been taken into heaven."
So basically instead of waiting to get to heaven when we die or are raptured- Why wait? It's like a microwave-You can experience it all NOW!
I'm telling you he's seen them all. Jesus, the Apostles, Angels, all sorts of things. He's what you would call a "regular."
Somehow I just don't think we were told about this concept in the Bible. In the later days we could all gain this new "knowledge" and travel to heaven.
Kind of sound similar to "New Age" to me.
His defense is the apostles and that we can have the same access to these "visions and dreams" like they did.
NO THANK YOU! Come Lord Jesus because unless I hear that trumpet call I'm not going anywhere.
Lisa
"In fact, today, there is a new breed of believers that God is raising up who have the same DNA as the explorers and the astronauts! "
I just noticed this qoute in that article.
A new BREED of believers with different DNA?
Excuse me- Can anyone say Nephallim? How about one of those Aliens?
Now we've got Believers with different DNA? Oh I bet!!!!!!!
America in Ashes?
Florida Jews Worried About Obama
Sufficiency of the Cross
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
Eph 4:32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Ethiopia: A Great Assembly Shall Return
Zeph 3 also talks about His people from Ethiopia (Cush) returning to His land in the last days.
I read this online and thought it might be of some help here:
When I consider the many moves or those that have been deemed as moves of God a couple of simple questions needed to be asked -
1. Does it glorify Christ?
2. Is the preaching Biblical?
3. Supernatural manifestations are always present in revivals but do they draw attention to the speaker or point toward Christ?
4. Are souls being added to the Kingdom of God?
Let’s look at Pensacola Outpouring - there is no denying that the scriptures was taught, Christ was glorified, people were added to the Kingdom, lives were transformed, and the supernatural was manifested.
In fact when fleshy or demonic manifestations occurred they were dealt with immediately. Yes, there is emotion involved in revival name me one revival where emotion was not involved.
Anyway, I would suggest a couple of good books for folks to read regarding the manifestations that are taking place. By the way I do have a hard time with the angel thing but when one looks at the New Testament, especially the book of Acts, angels did appear but I don’t think there was an exchange of names!?!?! However, angels have announced themselves in the Scriptures. But they always delivered the message and pointed toward God.
Oh I mustn’t forget the books - When the Spirit comes with Power by John White; Azusa Street by Frank Bartleman, Let no one deceive you by Michael Brown, Jonathan Edwards on Revival by Jonathan Edwards, I saw the Welsh Revival by David Matthews.
There are many more I could mention especially about Holy Spirit outpourings and revivals. For a good online resource look up Leonard Ravenhill, J. Edwin Orr, and AW Tozer. You can find videos of Ravenhill and Orr to download. These men have a good grasp of revivals as they are both historians of moves of God and powerful preachers.
In closing, all I can say is this, if this is of God then nothing will stop it but if it is not of God then the darkness will be exposed and it will fall to the ground. I know the power and presence of God in my own life and Christ is my center.
Lord’s blessing to you all.
I don't agree with some of the "stuff" going on that I've read about, but it doesn't mean that God cannot touch those who diligently seek Him.
Trying to picture third heavens and seeking angelic encounters is not Biblical and in my opinion opens one up to a host of satanic influence.
We should seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.
Alesia, if God calls you to Florida you should come on down. It's hot and sunny, so bring sunscreen and a fan.
The field is ripe for the picking, and laborers are few.
Okay that article America in Ashes gave me the chills. That is incredible. I am literally shaking about the lack of response to the phone call by the guy at the restaurant!!! That is just completely unacceptable. Now--imagine a few months from now Obama as President....taking funding away from our security, etc...I cant even think about it.
Marantha!!!
Donna,
Regarding the Falasha Jews, it is not widely known that it was because of Christians (not religious Jews) who lived in Israel in the 1970-1980's that the Israeli government first got involved with these people. The first plane load of 200 Falasha Jews arrived in Israel in 1977.
The Christians showed senior government officials in the PMO the Scriptures demonstrating that these people were in fact part of God's chosen people, and should be allowed to make aliya to Israel as full fledged citizens.
John
John,
That was one part of the article I wasn't clear on... the article stated that some of the Falash Jews had become Christians. Were those ones making aliyah, along with the Jewish ones? Did they have to convert to Judiasm first?
Blessings,
Jen
Lisa,
Don't forget that for there to be a "counterfeit", there has to be the genuine thing.
If you don't know what the genuine thing really looks like, you find it hard to identify a counterfeit.
It is not enough to read the Word, you need to have personal experience in what the Word speaks of (e.g the New Birth"), to understand it, and know when it is the "real thing".
If you have no practical knowledge or experience of the supernatural manifestations wriiten about in the Word that of God, you are at very great risk of failing to detect the difference between counterfeit and the "real deal", and if anything, MORE likely to be deceived than not.
It's like Coke and Pepsi - you have to drink (=experience) BOTH to be able tell which is the "real thing" - not that I am at all advocating that you experience "New Age" stuff so you can tell the real from the false, but if you have, to continue the analogy, never drunk Coke, you cannot possibly tell if what you are drinking is the "real thing".
If you read the NT, as Campsmore pointed out, and as I listed a few posts ago, angels were VERY involved in the propagation of the Gospel. Since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, then this should be the case today. If anything, if we truly are in the "last days", we should, according to Scripture, being seen much, much more of this sort of thing happening.
Some (as is the case to day) of the early Church had experiences of being taken to the 3rd heaven, having "open" visions, being in "trances", having actual meetings with angels - these were the "real thing". Reading through Acts, there is never any sense of surprise indicated by these events (with the exception of Peter and his escape from jail - he thought he was dreaming, as did Rhoda when she went to answer the door - if you don't know who I am talking about - read the Book!).
The New Agers will try to manifest the same, but this will be a counterfeit. You cannot just say because it "sounds" or "looks" New Age'ish, that it is not from God. That's like looking at something through the wrong end of a telescope - you are focusing on the counterfeit, not the "real thing"
If anything, we should be looking for the "real thing", while being wary of the counterfeit.
If it gives glory to God, it will NOT be of the devil or his ilk. There will be lots of "flesh" displayed, but as I said, this is mostly ignorance gone to seed, which comes up all "fleshy", and isn't even fit for animal consumption.
Don't panic!
John
Jen,
As far as I understood, they were forced to convert to Christianity by the Ethiopians - but they never forgot their Jewishness (by the way - these people are "black" - no offense intended. They were more Jewish than Christian in their beliefs.
In fact, they celebrated the Jewish feasts (with the exception of going up to Jerusalem) and the weekly Shabbat just like religious Jews do.
I remember it caused a lot of soul searching amongst Orthodox Jewish leaders at the time. (I was living in Israel at the time (1975-76 and 1978-79).
John
Thanks for the info, John.
So if they were forced into Christianity (I think the article said 'they converted' rather than 'they WERE converted' so I assumed it was their own free choosing), they have all along still been Jews, judging from the desire of their hearts to practice the Jewish feasts, etc. right?
And if so, they still need to receive salvation...
Am I right in understanding that only Jewish Jews can make aliyah? I mean that these Jews (or anyone from a Jewish lineage) can't make aliyah if they don't hold to the Jewish faith? Our own Joel would be an example....he's from a Jewish hertiage, but is by faith a Christian, so he can't make aliyah?
I know he's stated that he would like to move his family to Israel, but would he have to do that as a visitor/non-resident?
Interesting subject to sort out...
Blessings,
Jen
pictures of the terrorist mentioned in the ashes america post by Mac
Wanted by the FBI
we plan on going to see Joel speak tonight at the past, present future conference. wish you all could be here! if I get the chance to met him and get him to sign my book-anything anybody would like to say or ask? keep it brief
John
btw I sent you an email via the address listed at the site/group Nate set up and posted it to your blog as well.
Jen,
You are right - huge, huge issue right now in Israel.
There are many people who have converted to Judaism outside of Israel that the Orthodox Rabbinate are now saying are not Jes.
They also regard anyone who is Jewish who professes Jesus as their Messiah to no longer be Jewish, and therefore should (potentially) loose their Israeli citizenship.
As I said, huge problems in Israel - huge fight going on between the ultra-orthodox and the rest of the religious Jews about this right now.
I have a friend who lives in Israel, who is a messianic Jew, and is pastor of a small messianic congregation. He's been living in Israel since the early 70's. He is regarded by the ultra-Orthodox as a danger to the State of Israel, if not the most dangerous "missionary" there (according to newspaper articles I read).
He tried to put on an operatic production of the story of David & Beersheba - that he had written and scored, as well as directing - taking the story line directly from the Tenarch, and with NO mention or even a hint of anything "christian" in it, and having got Jewish people from all over the world involved (major name opera singers, etc) he staged the production (and very beautiful and lavish it was too) at the Opera House in Jerusalem.
The ultra-orthodox forced him to shutdown after just a week leaving him and his backers out of pocket by a very large amount.
They truly are the "Pharisees" of this generation...
John
John---fascinating stuff!!!! THIS is the stuff I love to hear about...WOW!!!!
John,
Is that what the issue right now is (I've read a few headlines, but not checked it out in depth) about the Rabbinacal Court overturning thousands of conversions? Those who were converted outside Israel, then made aliyah?
And what of the Arabs who have Jewish citizenship? Are they trying to get their citizenship removed?
I know the Knesset members go at each other's throats quite a bit (Arab members vs. Jewish members). That probably drives the Orthodox ones nuts.
Blessings,
Jen
Alesia, (and JIB and others)
(sorry this turned out waaay longer than I expected... - but that's not unusual...)
You said:
Now, if I look at what the Bible says: I was under the impression the gift of prophesy is the ONE gift we are no longer privvy to - until the very, very last of days.
Am I wrong?
John, you've made that statement yourself, numerous times. Why all of a sudden, it's ok that this guy does it?
Also, where in the bible does it state we can go hang out in heaven with the prophets whenever we choose?
Yes, the bible mentions angelic visits often - but it ain't nothing like this guy is talking about!
Please bear with me...
In answer to your first question concerning prophecy (the second may be answered in the process)...
First, I have NEVER said that prophecy is not for today, or only for the "last days", if by that you mean the days just before the coming of the Lord as opposed to what the Word says they are.
Now, according to the Word of God - in the NT - (NOT my opinions), there is a "manifestation" of the Holy Spirit called "prophecy". (There are also the "Word of Knowledge" and the Word of Wisdom" - both of these operate through the manifestation of prophecy, under the direction of the Holy Spirit).
The Word of God also says that Jesus appoints "prophets" who are to operate within the framework of the local Church. If prophecy is not for today, then why would Jesus appoint prophets. This role is a "gift" to His Body.
This means that we should EXPECT, if our church is operating according to the method and prescription described in the NT (apparently problematic), to see/hear prophets giving prophetic words in our local churches. Paul also explains the purpose of this type of prophecy (including the manifestation of the gift of tongues and interpretation, which according to Paul (NOT my opinion) is the same as prophecy) - it is for edification and exhortation and comfort of the church, and is intended to give us revelation, knowledge, prophesying, and teaching. (Again NOT my opinion - this is what the Word SAYS - I have deliberately not quoted chapter and verse, so that you can go and study and prove these things for your selves).
Therefore, from these statements alone (made in the NT, NOT my opinion), prophecy is very much "for today" - since the Church is still around. (If not, we are all in big trouble!)
The NT also tells us that the "spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets", meaning he/she has a CHOICE as to whether they SPEAK the prophetic words Holy Spirit gives them.
Now, according to Joel 2, God will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, and "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy".
This will occur during the "last days".
According to Acts 2, if we are to believe this account (it is in the Word of God!!), then according to Peter, what happened on, and subsequent to, the outpouring of Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (BTW this is a Jewish feast day - not something invented by Christian tradition), when the disciples (all of them) spoke with other tongues, was a (beginning) fulfillment of Joel's prophesy.
Now, logically (not based on "opinions", "hearsay", or "I think this", or "it's my impression"):
1) If Joel was correct, and this was to be a major sign of the "Last Days";
and 2) Peter confirms this in his first "sermon";
and 3) the Book of Acts indicates that this was not a one, two or even three time occurrence;
and 4) we believe that we are in the "Last Days" now; (this is an opinion)
THEN
1) we should EXPECT to see similar things happening to day,
2) we should EXPECT to see people receiving the baptism of Holy Spirit, with the evidence (as per Acts) of speaking in tongues
4) we should EXPECT to see people doing the same miracles and greater ones than Jesus did (not my opinion - Jesus said this)
5) we should EXPECT more and more angelic involvement in the spread of the Gospel, helping believers in their every day lives
6) we should EXPECT (according to Joel - who I hope you agree has been accurate so far) to see major supernatural events taking place in the Church - since Joel said that just during the "last days", i.e. in the days (months, years) leading up to the "Day of the Lord", God would pour our a double portion of His Spirit - Joel speaks of this as "the former and later rains together".
Now, basing our understanding on what we KNOW has already happened, and upon the belief (which I believe can be fully justified by Scripture) that we ARE in the last of the "Last Days", we should be able to correctly determine what we should be seeing now.
We have seen the "latter rain" (see Joel) outpouring of Holy Spirit(BTW this falls naturally in spring in Israel) at Pentecost - as per Peter's "sermon" (you cannot surely disagree with me on this - it's in the Word), we have seen the "former rain" outpouring - this was the outpouring of Holy Spirit at Azuza Street and the Welsh Revival, and at Pensacola more recently (you might disagree with me on this, but if so, we have still to see this part of the prophecy fulfilled), so, according to Joel (NOT my opinion), if we truly are in the last of the "Last Days", we should EXPECT the outpouring of Holy Spirit in a way the world has never yet seen - the "the former and later rains together", in its season, at the time of the harvest (Jeremiah 5:24) - i.e. in "a" September (early Fall) around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles.
We cannot KNOW the actual year, but I think we can have a pretty good idea, especially if, as in our church, God is continually speaking to us about it happening "very soon".
Now, if you want to argue that "tongues" and the manifestations of Holy Spirit are not for today, then logically, you are saying:
EITHER
1) the Word of God is unreliable, or worse, is lying
OR
2) that the "Last Days" were in fact 2000 years ago, and ended when the first apostles died, and we have gone beyond the "Last Days" that Scripture talks of.
OR (even more serious)
3) that God is both a respecter of persons, giving to one person something He will not give to another, and
4)that He changes His mind, and is no longer the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Logically you have to make a choice, because to not do so is to be unwilling or unable to rightly divide the Word, which means you can also wrongly divide it.
Now, either we are serious in our desire to really study the Word, and discover what it really says, or we just want to discuss our "opinions", what we "feel", what we may "believe", what we "think", what our "impressions" are, without reference to what the Scriptures actually say.
You CANNOT, logically (not opinion), have it both ways.
EITHER
we rely on our "feelings", thinking", "beliefs", "impressions", "traditions", other peoples "teachings" (including any I might have tried to present) as a means to judge what we see and hear in the Word
OR
we should be obedient to the Word, and study to make ourselves, individually, trutung that Jesus was telling us the Truth when he said that Holy Spirit would lead us into all Truth (which means you need to be able to hear Him clearly when He says "come this way"), approved of by God (not man), becoming perfect (mature) believers, no longer swayed or blown around by every wind of doctrine, not able to endure sound doctrine, turned aside to fables, but rather we should be endeavoring to come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Furthermore, Jesus clearly said that the arrival of Holy Spirit, as described in Acts 2, has great advantages to us. Jesus said that it was only if Holy Spirit came "in power" upon us, would He be able to "lead us into all truth" and "tell us of things to come". Jesus also said that we needed this "power from on high" in order to be witnesses for Him to the ends of the earth.
In my understanding of the above, if that means that the Baptism of Holy Spirit is not an optional extra to put on and taken off like a rain coat on a rainy day, has a specific, evidential, visible results when I receive it (according to Acts), and enables me to operate in the supernatural - a prerequisite for the Great Commission (see Mark 16), AND, according to Jesus, I NEED it to be an effective witness - if so, then I want it - NOW!
Now, the real question is:
Are you going to honest about what you believe, and whether or not it truthfully lines up with the Word, and act on it?
Are you going to study the Word, and believe it unreservedly and completely (which is a definition of faith, and remember, without faith it is impossible to please God?
OR, alternatively (and there really is no other logical alternative), are you going to continue to rely on your "traditions", religion, opinions, beliefs, thoughts, ideas, impressions and whatever, in spite of, or in contradiction to what the Word of God actually says?
It really is your choice.
My main concern is that if you do NOT know what the Word says, and you are not learning to walk "in the Spirit (the place, not the state), as we are COMMANDED to do by God himself, than when disaster strikes, be that from natural causes or terrorists, it will be too late to learn - you just won't have the time.
It is my belief that we are about to enter a time of great trouble and danger (just look to what has happened already in the US this year - tornadoes, extreme weather, flooding, mudslides, earthquakes and fires), which will make even the events in Burma and China pale in comparison.
If you are not able to totally put your trust in God, when all around you may be, literally, slipping away, and when getting even fresh water and basic food becomes next to impossible, when the basic necessities of life are not available to you, do you KNOW that you KNOW that your God will supply all of your need, do you KNOW how to get what you need from your storehouse in Heaven, and have it manifest here in the natural for you to use it now, or will you, like many Christians, suddenly find that your faith is like that of the man who built his house on the sand?
Remember, Jesus said that when we see such things as nations rising against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places, that this is only the beginning of birth pangs.
I've no expereince of childbirth, except vicariously through my wife's experiences, but if the analogy of birth pangs is anything to go by, boy, we are in for a roller coaster of a ride, maybe literally.
Anyway,I'm not trying, in any way to say that any of us here are not "good" Christians, or that any of us are "better" than the others, because of our "knowledge" or "gifts", I am merely trying to show you what the Bible says, in the hope it might just help you, and in the worst case scenario, may literally save your life.
John
PS It has NEVER been my intention to cause pain or belittle anyone here, or to infer that they are not "good" Christians, or worse, that I am somehow "better" than others, because I have had the experience of the Baptism of Holy Spirit and speak in other tongues. Quite the contrary. I was hoping to show you all some things that are in the Word of God that have been of great help to me, and I had hoped would be of great benefit to you all.
If I have appeared judgmental, self-righteous or rude, please forgive me That has never been my intention. I love the Lord with all of my heart, and if I come across as somewhat outspoken or all knowing (neither of which were my intention), then it's probably because of the struggles I have had with "traditions" and "religion" and other such things, that just did not line up with what I read in the Word, but which my "elders" and supposedly more "mature" fellow Christians (my pastors and teachers) could not or would not explain - or worse, explained away, as not being for today.
I would not want anyone to go through some of the stuff I have gone through, because nobody shared the whole truth of God's Word with me.
John
Sorry that should read:
we should be obedient to the Word, and study to make ourselves, individually, trusting that Jesus was telling us the Truth when he said that Holy Spirit would lead us into all Truth...
John
An interesting article/video I found while browsing today...
(Israel taking ag technology to India to grow olives)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3981145.ece
(Jon Voight speaks about his passion for Israel)
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/12873.htm
Blessings,
Jen
Thank you, John, and the Lord continue to bless you abundantly. I so appreciate your giftedness, especially your knowledge of God's Word and your ability to discuss it. You are an encouragement to me and to others!
Blessings to all! (Mary)
I'd like to echo Mary's comments to JOhn.
Thank you for speaking the truth in love.
lori
I am late in joining the conversation about communion, but I hope I can still chime in.
My husband and I are in Florida for my niece's graduation. It's SO nice to see family. :)
In my church we celebrate communion 4x a year--quarterly.
We use grape juice and in most churches a church member will make the unleavened bread out of whole wheat flour. More like a soft cracker which covers a large cookie sheet, which is scored and broken in small squares.
We also celebrate footwashing (the ordinance of humility) beforehand. Does any other church do this?
We do it because Jesus said we should--
John 13:...
12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them."
It is a humbling, moving service...by renewing your baptismal vows and readying yourself for the communion service.
Vicki
John,
I deleted my comment before you posted yours, because I realized I was in error about it being YOU that said that.
My apologies.
Guys, new post is up.
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