My Goal is God Himself. . .
At any cost, dear Lord, by any road.
"...because you ... have not withheld your son, your only son — I will bless you... In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” Genesis 22:16
"At any cost . . . by any road" means submitting to God’s way of bringing us to the goal.
There is no possibility of questioning God when He speaks, if He speaks to His own nature in me. Prompt obedience is the only result. When Jesus says, "Come," I simply come; when He says, "Let go," I let go; when He says, "Trust God in this matter," I trust. This work of obedience is the evidence that the nature of God is in me....
It is through the discipline of obedience that I get to the place where Abraham was and I see who God is. God will never be real to me until I come face to face with Him in Jesus Christ. Then I will know and can boldly proclaim, "In all the world, my God, there is none but Thee, there is none but Thee."
The promises of God are of no value to us until, through obedience, we come to understand the nature of God. We may read some things in the Bible every day for a year and they may mean nothing to us. Then, because we have been obedient to God in some small detail, we suddenly see what God means and His nature is instantly opened up to us...."
Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest
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153 comments:
Kathy,
You wrote:
We need to let God have the sovereignty in our lives that He gives Himself in His Word!
OK. That made me chuckle a bit. I know what you are trying to say but you have to admit, it sounds funny if you think about it. If He is sovereign, it's certainly not necessary for us to let God have sovereignty in our lives? He's already got it!
I absolutely acknowledge and believe in the sovereignty of God but belief in the sovereignty of God does not mean that He has not, by His sovereign choice, given us freedom to accept or reject him, freedom to yield or resist, freedom to obey or disobey.
We bring nothing to God. Even our ability to choose is a gift from Him. But, I that gift is clearly given to everyone, not just "the elect."
He chooses us, he makes provision for our salvation, he opens our eyes to the truth of the Gospel, and yet He makes himself vulnerable by allowing us to freely accept or reject Him. That is the essence of His love.
He is still sovereign.
He is still the Alpha and Omega.
We are still 100% dependent upon Him to save us. But it is a two-way relationship that He invites us into -- a covenant relationship.
Anyway, that's where I find the Scriptures leading me. As I've said before, I definitely think that I can be wrong about this.
One thing that makes me more confident that I am not wrong is how frequently those who disagree with me (not you Kathy) totally misunderstand or mischaracterize the doctrinal position I hold.
I'd be more troubled if the criticisms against my position started out with a more accurate characterization or understanding of my position.
I believe we are saved by faith, not works.
I do believe God is sovereign.
I do believe that when Christians sin, God as our loving heavenly Father disciplines us.
I don't believe that Christians move in and out of God's saving grace each time we sin.
I do believe there are both warnings in Scripture about losing rewards and warnings to true believers about falling away from the faith (break relationship with God).
I do believe that the great apostacy that the Scriptures talk about in the end times refers to true believers apostacizing.
I do believe I'm first to post a comment here!
Shalom, all! I was going through some of the links Lori provided yesterday, and on one of the "Moscow News" links I a noticed a headline Foretellers: Russia will dominate the world. The link brought me to a page titled Russian Prophecies. It talks about a seeress called "Baba Vanga", or Granny Vanga. She lost her sight at age 12, but then grew to be able to use her psychic powers to describe locations of places she'd never been to, etc.
What I find interesting about this article is her prediction that "Russia will dominate the world." Specifically, she said, Everything will melt away like ice yet the glory of Vladimir, the glory of Russia are the only things that will remain. Russia will not only survive, it will dominate the world. (1979) Two things to note here: in 1979, you didn't speak of Russia, you said the USSR. And "Vladimir" is the name of the prince who founded the Kyevin Rus at a place now called Vladimir, which has one of the oldest monastaries in Eastern Europe. Vladimir, though, happens to be in Ukraine. Right now there is a political tug-of-war going on between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, both of which are laying claim to Vladimir. The Moscow Patriarchate views with great sorrow the actions of their Ukrainian brothers, who teeter on the edge of both heresy and schism by attempting to declare that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is separate from and holds no allegiance to the Moscow Patriarchate, when both history and Christian charity should make clear the close and fruitful bonds that unite these two great Orthodox traditions. The Ukrainians, for their part, are telling the Russians to BACK OFF. (With all Christian charity, of course.)
Vladimir also happens to be located on the western edge of the land controlled by the Scythians, and in fact, the Kyevin Rus were a mixture of Scythians and Norse traders, plus whatever slaves the Norse happened to bring along. It is the source of Magog, and I fear that it will dominate the world.
You can read more about Baba Vanga in this Pravda article, which also has links to a photo gallary of the Israeli "Merkava" tank, Condoleezza Rice's sexual worries in the White House, and a Kalishnikov in gold (which is very nice, but not as nice as the "Hello Kitty AR-15". The AR-15 is the civilian version of the M-16.) There is a more in-depth article about Baba Vanga here.
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Wish Hyde would clue me in when he does a new post so I can be first for once.
PS You make some excellent points, Jim.
Interesting summation of various views on the question Can Salvation be Lost? that I stumbled across. Here's a partial cut and paste.
1) How is Salvation "gained"? By works, by faith, or by decree?
2) How is Salvation "kept"?, By works, by faith, or by decree?
I'm going to propose 5 views, that come about through the way we answer these two questions.
View #1) Salvation is gained by works, it is kept by works. Net result: Salvation can be easily lost.
View #2) Salvation is gained by faith in Jesus, it is kept by good works. Net result: Salvation can be easily lost.
View #3) Salvation is gained by faith in Jesus, It is kept by faith in Jesus. Net result: Salvation can not be "lost", but it can be forfeited.
View #4) Salvation is gained by faith in Jesus, It is kept by decree of God. Net result: Salvation can not be lost once we have believed.
View #5) Salvation is gained by decree of God, It is kept by decree of God. Net result: Salvation can not be lost.
There are several scripturally reasonable positions that can be taken on this issue. And to be fair, none of the views are without difficulty. No matter what our understanding, may we show love to those believers who disagree with us.
I would add perhaps 3 more important questions, one which Kathy has already raised and we both agree is important.
1.) What is saving faith and where does it come from?
2.) What is meant by salvation? (heaven, relationship with Christ, etc...)
3.) What does "eternal life" mean?
Can Salvation be Lost?
And for those who missed the humorous link from the same guy, here it is:
Calvinist Dictionary
Jim G,
I think we are on the same page with much of our thinking. It's true believers apostatizing that I don't see supported in Scripture.
I agree with views 4 & 5. Four is from man's perspective. Five is from God's perspective.
I understand saving faith to be the ability to believe and submit to the gospel and that ability comes from God. Involved is repentance (which according to 2 Tim. 2:25 God grants)- a changing of the mind, and calling on the name of the Lord. (Rm. 10:9-10, 13)
Put simply, salvation is eternal deliverance from the consequences of sin, for all time!
I view salvation and eternal life as synonymous. Jn 5:24 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Good night! (And Good Morning to you Mac! Love the new post.)
Jim G; when you have time, listen to Jan's talk with sandy Simpson. Some time after the 20 min mark, he makes an interesting comment about eternal security.
August 2, 2008 - Hour 2
Making a clarion call for discernment, Sandy Simpson from "Deception in the Church" talks with Jan about his book, "The Discernment Tool Kit." Since the Bible places so much importance on discernment, why are so many lacking in it? How does one attain it? And how and why has it been abandoned in the last 15 years? These questions and more are tackled.
How sweet & beautiful - thank you Mac ;-)
Good morning all, have a God filled day!
I am listening to Sandy Simpson at the moment, and checked out his website...and his opinion on
this topic is the following:
"We also need to realize that there are some issues, such as the eternal security vs. free will debate, that present us with a paradox, or more accurately, an antinomy (two truths that are both true yet apparently opposite). The doctrine of the Trinity, for instance, is misunderstood by those who cannot fathom the concept of Three in One. Our finite mind is incapable of fully grasping every truth of God and His Word, and we will not fully know certain things until we meet the Lord (1 Cor. 13:12). But we still need to teach those antinomies with equal vigor and authority as best we can with the Light given to us.
I have been accused by people, from both sides, of teaching free will to the exclusion of eternal security, and vice versa. If you find yourself being accused from both sides, I believe this is a good sign that you are teaching balanced theology based on the Bible."
oops, this is where I found that quote from:
this is where I found that quote from
Good morning Alesia and all; excellent post Mr. Hyde and so on the mark for today's discussion; and yesterdays, and the yesterdays that preceded that yesterday's yesterday. The word for today:: YESTERDAY!
I just received this from a very dear friend in Ireland and I just had to share it with you all.
AN EMAIL FROM IRELAND
An email from Ireland to all of their brethren in the States...a point to ponder despite your political affiliation:
'We, in Ireland, can't figure out why you people are even bothering to hold an election in the United States.
On one side, you had a pants wearing female lawyer, married to another lawyer who can't seem to keep his pants on, who just lost a long and heated primary against a lawyer, who goes to the wrong church, who is married to yet another lawyer, who doesn't even like the country her husband wants to run !
Now...On the other side, you have a nice old war hero whose name starts with the appropriate 'Mc' terminology, married to a good looking younger woman who owns a beer distributorship !!
What in God's name are ya lads thinkin over in the colonies !"
Any responses anyone?
Grany
Jim G.
I didn't know Calvary Chapel held onto view #4. Especially since my understanding is more in line with view #3.
But then-I have not been attending Calvary long enough to become indoctrinated so my view has come from reading the Bible on my own.
At this TN Grace Chapel @ the start of this series "Christ in you the hope of glory" the message leaned toward view #4 but the further down the road we are & into what "abiding" entails-it looks to be heading into view #3.
This really may have something to do with the responsibilities of "New Believers" verses
"Seasoned Believers."
Remember the more one is given-the more is required from that person.
The criminal who confessed Jesus is Lord as he hung on the cross next to Him was saved. He didn't have any time to "work out salvation w/fear & trembling". He was saved then died. Rewards? probably not too many as he didn't have the time to do anything out of love for the Lord.
But as time goes by we are told to live in the Spirit, read the Word daily, abide in Christ, don’t be one w/the world, don’t sin, etc...
So in order to endure and persevere the trials of this life & remain faithful until death we have to be obedient to His will and follow what he has given us for instruction in His word.
Those who claim "Christianity" but do not progress & mature in their spirit & remain "as is", do not become a "new creation",-Are not exhibiting a love for Christ & His righteousness. They are still hanging onto and love the things of this world.Others progress for a season then fall back into their former ways.
Many of them find a preacher who says what they want to hear. They want to follow the god of their minds not the God of the Bible.
But He knew who would love Him and follow His commands before time began. He has the ability to know the future but-does He exercise this ability in every circumstance?
We don't know.
(Maybe He likes suspense too)
Since we are rotten to the core in our sinful state-it's only through the power of the Holy Spirit our desires & perceptions are changed.
I've felt that power change my life & perception. I used to worry about the "change" not realizing it wasn't though my effort that it would come about. I knew deep inside my effort wouldn't cut it.
We have been set free from the power of sin. In fact we have the ability not to sin if we abide in Christ. Jesus has buried sin & crushed the power of Satan over our lives.
We don't have to wait until heaven for that to happen. Through Christ it is attainable now & is described in the New Testament.
This concept is what He wants us to understand and strive for. Sure we'll sin once in awhile but the more we yield to His spirit the more of His nature will flow through us and out of us. If He's actively working in us & though us-then sin has no place. The ability and fullness of Christ are already there. All we have to do is become competent in "Yielding" to the Spirit so He can do His job within us. The actual "Yielding" is up to us. We are not automatically programmed to do that.
That's why the Bible says don't Quench,(Squash,smash,squish,press-I forgot all the actual biblical terms)the Holy Spirit.
So how much do we yield? 50% of the time? 75%? 99%?
Are we good at yielding when things are going smoothly? How about when it get's rough or irritating? (that's my personal nemisis-my yielding takes a hike)
I do pray for "yielding assistance" but I have confidence in the more I die to myself and live in Christ-the more authority I'll exercise over Satan & Sin and live a righteous & holy life even in the midst of this broken world.
All the fullness of Christ dwells within us. We can't forget that.(Although Satan would love us to)
1John 3:5-9
"And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
Little children,let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous,just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in Him;and he cannot sin,because he has been born of God."
1 John 2:28,29
"And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
Grany,
Response:
"I think it's due time for a Guinness!" or "Must be the toxins in our chemically modified beer."
Just a little of my thinking!
ACTS 17: 16 THROUGH 34
"In Him we live and move and have our being."--Verse 28.
WHILE Silas remained with the Bereans to strengthen and establish them, as Timothy had remained at Thessalonica and Luke at Philippi, the apostle Paul went on alone to Athens, then the center of the world's culture, intelligence and wisdom. It was a college city, where the most eminent philosophers of the world, as instructors in its great colleges, to which came the world's brightest and ablest thinkers, lived. Athens boasted that during one century of its intellectual dominance it had sent more intellectual giants out than all the rest of the world had supplied for five centuries. Jerusalem had been the center of true religion; Rome was the center of the world's imperial authority; and Athens was the world's intellectual capital.
We can imagine Paul walking through the streets of that great city, admiring its architecture--the most wonderful in the world--listening to some of the scientific teachers of that day, and wondering at all of the numerous monuments with which the city was fairly crowded. Pliny, the historian, declares that about this time Athens contained more than three thousand public statues and a countless number of lesser images in private houses. He noted the fact that in one street there stood before every house a square pillar supporting a bust of the god Hermes. Every gateway and every post carried its protecting god. Every street had its sanctuary.
No wonder the Apostle's heart was stirred within him as he saw this seemingly intelligent city wholly given over to idolatry, apparently ignorant of the true God! He had a zeal to tell these WORLDLY WISE men about the great Creator and His Wisdom, Justice, Love and Power. As usual, he found the Jewish synagogue; it was Paul's practice to seek out the Jews first and then to the gentiles; and there he reasoned with the Jews and with devout persons. Moreover, he talked daily in the market places with all who were willing to hear him out. My translation says that he disputed; but scholars generally admit that this word does not well represent the thought of the original, which rather signifies conversed or reasoned. Disputes, in the ordinary sense of the word, are of little value and accomplish little or no good.
Some even called the him a babbler, implying that there was neither reason nor sense in his presentations. Others thought more favorably, and were curious to have a formal discussion. So in the Lord's providence the way was opened for Paul to deliver a speech on the Plan of the Ages among the wise men of the earth on Mars Hill, probably in the great structure known as the Parthenon. This must have seemed a favorable opening to Paul-- to find intelligent people really inquiring about the Gospel which he was proclaiming. However, the curiosity of the Athenians, like that of some of the worldly today, was superficial. They wished to keep abreast of every new theory, particularly that they could defend their own position, a mind-set which they were already committed to wholly.
My translation says Paul begun his remarks by accusing his hearers of being too superstitious. However true the statement might have been, it would have been unwise for it would have needlessly prejudiced and offended his hearers from the outstart. The tone and custom would have been more likely for Paul to have said too superstitious instead of religious.
Paul went on to show that by the images which they had erected they recognized innumerable gods, and that in addition he had seen one altar to the Unknown God. This was being overly religious in one sense of the word--unwisely so. Reason should have taught them what Revelation teaches us; namely, that there is but one living and true God. The mind that roams about and grasps many gods is truly over-religious and under-wise.
The inscription on one of the altars, "To the unknown God," became the text of the Apostle's speech. He preached the true God and Jesus Christ, whom God had sent. He showed Divine Justice and its requirements, which the fallen race of Adam are unable to meet. He demonstrated that thus all mankind are under condemnation as unworthy of life everlasting. He showed that God so loved all of the people of the world that He sent His Son to be our Satisfaction-price, to redeem mankind from the condemnation of death and to grant them resurrection privileges. He explained that this true God was neither stone nor wood, nor were there any such representations of Him, but that "they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."--John 4:24.
The Apostle got the attention of the Athenians to a greater God than they had ever thought of. He showed the length and the breadth of Divine love-- that it was not confined to one nation or people, but that God had made "of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on the face of the earth," having determined the appointed season in which they should come to a knowledge of Himself, according to the place of their residence; for He desires that all should seek Him, and that, running after Him, they should find Him.
To some of us the Lord has revealed Himself, and has drawn us to a knowledge of Himself and to opportunities for still further knowledge and grace. Yet many are still in ignorance, His time or season for their being brought to a knowledge of the Truth having not yet fully arrived. He is being found out by those who desire to find Him--those who are out of accord with sin, those who are running after God with a desire to find Him. To this class alone does He appeal. How glad we are to know that after having gathered all of us to this Church Age, He will then ultimately cause every knee to bow and every tongue to confess, and will spread the knowledge of His glory to fill the whole earth!
The Apostle, in addressing philosophers, spoke from the standpoint of reason, instead of attempting to discuss the matter from the standpoint of Divine Revelation, as He would have done if he had been speaking to a congregation of Jews or of Christians. So to the Stoics and other learned men of Athens he became a philosopher, in order that he might be more able to assist them in the true philosophy and the Plan of the Ages. For instance, had he been speaking to Jews or Christians he might have noted the fact that all out of Christ are out of Divine favor and under Divine condemnation; but in addressing these philosophers, he stated the truth from another standpoint. He called attention to the fact that in one sense of the word the entire human family are brethren, and all of them God's children, or offspring.
Note the logic of the argument. If humanity are the offspring of God, they should, as His children, resemble Him in some degree. This being true, gold, silver, and stone images must be very poor representations of the true God. Man himself, as the child or offspring of God, would better represent Him, especially in the higher elements of character.
Grany
n. pl. Apostasies ().
An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion of departure from one's faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian's apostasy from Christianity.
1 Tim 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"
(You had to be in the faith to depart from it)
Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
(Kathy-The question is here-Well is it or is it not possible? It seems to allude to it's not possible. But IF it were-then the "elect" would be deceived. Otherwise wouldn't it say? "and they shall deceive even some of the elect.")
OK-then who are the "elect?" All believers or some specially set aside for specific purposes?
If there is no chance for the "elect" to be deceived then who are all the warnings-warning?
32 Occurrences of the word Elect
" ..Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Lk 18:8b
Let's back up and look @ this again from a fresh perspective.
Examples of the "elect" in the Old & New Testament.
Maybe who the "elect" are is causing the confusion.
(I'm just throwing this out there.For example the diciples were "elected" by God for a purpose although there were other people who came to faith in Christ.)
Hey all,
Great Granny, loved your post from your Irish friend. Since my wife is part Irish and I'm part Scottish, I have great respect for their, shall we say, tenacity.
Anybody read the debka report on the Turkish-Iranian-Syrian talks that are now coming to light? Could this be the shift of Turkey to the east we've been expecting.
In His Grip,
Scott
I understand the elect to be those who are chosen to be saved. God made His choice for those whom He would show mercy before He even created the world. Our calling is when His choice intersects time. (For me it was at a Good News Club when I was nine, forty years ago!)
Here is why I do not believe true believers will apostatize.
1 Jn. 5:1,4 says - "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith." (I'm a bit partial to that overcoming theme.) Since Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, all true believers will be overcomers!
Being "in Christ" is a most wonderful and secure place to be. Being chosen secures our salvation. (Eph. 1:4 - "Just as He chose us "in Him" before the foundation of the world...") Death will not even rip us from His grip, it only ushers us into His presence!
My blog's theme verse: Revelation 12:11 - "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death."
The blood of the Lamb shed on our behalf is our security!
...as I said previously, we know we are chosen by our fruit.
Jn. 15:16 - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you."
Grany
loved the post
Mac
wow, you don't know how timely this particular posting was, it is a real blessing today.
Scott
I shall have to look that up. might just be what we've been looking for
otherwise
not going to participate in this debate since we aren't going to change anyones mind about it. I still like my middle of the road approach which takes both into account.
Obama received campaign contributions from Gaza Palestinians
Iran: We tested new naval weapon
IAEA Official to Visit Iran
U.S.: Iran response on nuclear freeze is unacceptable or U.S.: Iran response on nuclear freeze is unacceptable
U.S. calls Iran nuclear letter obfuscation
A warning to Syria, Iran from Israel
Murdered Syrian officer knew too much
Gaddafi: Iran may suffer fate of Iraq
US Revokes Visas for Gaza Fulbright Students
IDF trains for simultaneous Hezbollah, Iran, Syria missile strikes
UNIFIL (United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon): We vow to try to rescue any Israeli soldier captured in Lebanon
Egypt uncovers eight smuggling tunnels north of Gaza crossing
Mofaz formally announced his candidacy in the Kadima primary elections "vows to keep Jerusalem unified as the eternal capital of Israel."
Damascus still lingering between axis of evil and West," said official at Ministry of Foreign Affairs Read Isaiah 17 for the future of Damascus
Last Ethiopian airlift lands in Israel
AP Exclusive: US removes uranium from Iraq
This caught me by surprise!
Report: Iraq could have $79 billion budget surplus
Scott,
Prophecy in the News just has a new clip on "The two faces of Basher Assad" if you haven't seen it. (It also mentions how Iran has dug over 300,000 burial blots)
"Space Aliens-A New Theological Perspective" was good as well.(This one goes into discussion WHY the Vatican would make the recent statements they did & re: Aliens possibly being "without sin.")
Words to live by
The following lines were penned by a young pastor in Africa and tacked to a wall in his house.
My commitment as a Christian:
I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made. I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ. I won't look back, let up, slow down, back away or be still.
My past is redeemed, my present makes sense, my future is secure. I'm finished and done with low living, sight walking, small planning, smooth knees, colorless dreams, tamed visions, mundane talking, cheap living and dwarfed goals.
I no longer need preeminence, prosperity, position, promotions, plaudits or popularity. I don't have to be right, first, tops, recognized, praised, regarded or rewarded. I now live by faith, lean on His presence, walk by patience, lift by prayer and labor by power.
My face is set, my gait is fast, my goal is Heaven, my road is narrow, my way rough, my companions few, my Guide reliable, my mission clear. I cannot be bought, deluded or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate in the presence of the adversary, negotiate at the table of the enemy or meander in the maze of mediocrity.
I won't give up, shut up, let up, until I have stayed up, stored up, prayed up, paid up, preached up for the cause of Christ. I am a disciple of Jesus. I must go 'til He comes, give 'til I drop, preach 'til all know, and work 'til He stops me. And when He comes for His own, He will have no problem recognizing me - my banner will be clear!
- Author unknown
Comment re: Iran's new weapon
(My 1st thought as well)
137. It's Russian
This was not developed by the Iranians. Big Lie Again!. A U.S. government report revealed last week that Russia provided Iran with secret high-technology related to a high-speed, rocket powered torpedo that Iran recently demonstrated. The Shkval rocket powered torpedo was developed by Russian weapons researchers at facilities in Kyrgyzstan, or Kazakhstan and the technology was transferred with the knowledge of Moscow and those governments, said the unclassified report by the U.S. Open Source Center, an intelligence unit that analyzes foreign news media.
James - USA (08/05/2008 20:54)
Look at the following English translations of Matthew 24:24. None of them translate this verse to read “if it WERE possible…” I think the reason is because the word "WERE" simply does not exist in the original Greek and it is not warranted as best as I can see.
Young's Literal Translation
for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
American Standard Version
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.
Darby Bible Translation
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall give great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
English Revised Version
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
World English Bible
For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
Suppose I say, “I’m going to go fishing and catch, if possible, even some rainbow trout.” That certainly does NOT imply that it is not possible for me to catch rainbow trout. The same logic can be applied to Matt. 24:24.
Get rid of the word WERE in the phrase “were possible” (since is not in the original NT Greek) and suddenly Matt. 24:24 becomes a real warning to believers from our Lord. Jesus did not warn us against things that are not really dangers.
Matt. 24:24 implies that it is possible. That is why Jesus essentially said, in Matt. 24:25.
"I'm warning you ahead of time!"
Be ready.
Kathy,
You wrote:
Here is why I do not believe true believers will apostatize.
1 Jn. 5:1,4 says - "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...
If I understand you correctly, you read the word "believes" in the above verse to mean something like "sincerely asks Jesus to be Lord and Savior (in other words, has a conversion experience in a point in time that necessarily results in a life that bears fruit).
I read the word believes to mean continues to believe. It is not so much a single event as it is a life of faith. But I guess that just brings us back to the fundamental question regarding what is saving faith and what (if anything) does our free will have to do with it.
I prefer to think of salvation as relationship to and fellowship with God that is available to all who will accept His gracious offer (as opposed to a ticket to heaven that God issues by divine decree to certain people and is thus irrevocable).
I think perhaps we are quite close in our views. I appreciate your (and jib's and Mary's and Grany's and Donna's and Alesia's and Mac's and Lisa's and everyone else who has chimed in) patience and willingness to dialogue about this with me.
Grany, good post @ 11:17!
Hi Lisa,
Really love your posts. You always give us things to chew on!
I am throwing you a curve ball on your ‘Elect’ theory. We are all hopefully striving to walk with Christ and drawing closer to Him and thus trying not too sin but as we all know we will always battle in this department. But when you look at the traditional churches where they have their ‘elect’ leading the church, teaching at bible schools, preaching to their flocks, etc. and you see and hear what they are saying then the ‘elect’ are definitely deceived and leading their flocks astray.
My roots are the Anglican Church and I have too say that I am very disturbed by what the Anglican world leadership are doing and saying, all because they are trying to be politically correct! The wisdom of man against the wisdom of God. These leaders are so filled with their own knowledge, pride and desires that they forget to listen to God and start making decisions for their churches that are not based on Scripture. Hence they are now ordaining homosexuals, even to the level of bishop; allowing same sex marriages; turning a blind eye to the abortion issues; and making plenty more rulings and decisions about their church without really listening to God. Hence the ‘elect’ is deceived and leading others with them.
I am sure that the Anglican Church is not the only one and from reading some earlier posts the RC is not far behind, even say that ‘aliens’ are sinless. The Evangelical Churches are not fearing any better, look at what has been going on with the ‘Lakeland’ and Todd Bentley saga. Please remember that they all consider themselves to be Christian!
Yours in Christ
Jeri.
Church/state wall beginning to crumble?
Fellow spelunkers,
Atty sent me a link yesterday to what I think is the most important and amazing video I have seen since Mark Biltz's Blood Red Moon videos.
The video is by Paster Steve Hadley of Harvest Family Fellowship. This is a must see for everybody!
Steve talks a lot about Mark Biltz's blood red moon scenario in the video, but he takes it a step farther. Among other things, Steve talks about the two witnesses in Revelation being killed by the A.C. and people celebrating by giving gifts to one another. Steve thinks this could happen on the Jewish Festival of Purim in 2012. This is the festival where Jews celebrate by giving one another gifts just as is recorded in Revelation after the witnesses are killed.
Steve accounts for the first 1260 days of the tribulation starting this Sept. 29-30th (with a possible rapture) and ending at Purim on March 8th, 2012 with the killing of the two witnesses by the A.C.. There is then a 30 day gap until April 7th, 2012 (Passover). Then the last 1260 days of the Great Tribulation begins on April 7th, 2012 (Passover) ending on Sept. 23, 2015 with Christ cleansing the Temple on the Day of Atonement. If you add up all the days from Purim 2012 until Sept. 23, 2015, it adds up to 1290 days. If memory serves me correctly, Daniel talks about there being 1290 days of the Great Tribulation.
Here is the link to Paster Steve's website:
Prophecy Update: A Purim Connection...?
The video is the Purim one at the top of the list.
Again, I cannot more strongly emphasize how important I think this video is.
God Bless,
Harold
anon
great post. I shall have to copy that.
to all
unable to go into specifics but a young lady came into our hospital last night and is dying from overwhelming infection. she has kids, husband is distraught. barring a miracle from God this lady will likely die in the next 24 hours or so. she is so far beyond anything we can do to cure although we seem to be delaying death but barely. they need a miracle. this is the kind of case where I have seen God intervene and they do survive but not a common thing.
JIB just got on the net and wanted to tell you I believe in miracles and am praying..believing~
Grany
Anonymous, what a wonderful statement of faith and dedication. I am copying and putting on my desktop for the whole world to see but especially for my own encouragement daily, hourly and by the minute.
Thank you for sharing,
Grany
joel has a new post
Subject: Picture taking
A little boy walked to and from school daily. Though the weather that morning was questionable and clouds were forming, he made his daily trek to the elementary school. As the afternoon progressed, the winds whipped up, along with thunder and lightning.
The mother of the little boy felt concerned that her son would be frightened as he walked home from school and she herself feared that the electrical storm might harm her child.
Following the roar of thunder, lightning would cut through the sky like a flaming sword.
Full of concern, the mother quickly got into her car and drove along the route to her child's school. As she did so, she saw her little boy walking along, but at each flash of lightning, the child would stop, look up and smile. Another and another were to follow quickly and with each the little boy would look at the streak of light and smile.
When the mother's car drew up beside the child, she lowered the window and called to him, "What are you doing? Why do you keep stopping?"
The child answered, "I am trying to look nice.
God keeps taking my picture."
May God bless you today as you face the storms that come your way.
Jib,
Joining with Grany, and you, for a miracle healing at the Hospital.
Alesia,
Great story! I loved it!
Jib,
Praying for that family.
Jim G,
I also looked it up in the Greek Interlinear to check on the word "IF" & it does say "if".
Now you know I'm not in the pre-destination "Elect" camp.
I'm just playing the devils advocate to see if the "elect" may mean something different than the entire group of true Christians.
The rezoning you stated may be accurate about the "if" in Matthew.It's how I've been looking @ it myself.
The warnings are there for a reason & the reason being Christians can fall away & be deceived. That I have no doubt of.
But if the "elect" are special prophets or people used by God for specific purposes then maybe that would explain some things.
I'm also leery about the action of
claiming "elect" status since some specific groups & denominations claim to be the exclusively
"elect" chosen one's from God.
So that's why I brought up the possibility of the "elect" being separate from the rest of us true Christians. Elect-or set aside. We know the 144,000 are sealed & could be considered "elect" because there is a specific number of Jews which are set aside for God's remnant.
Are the 144,000 the "woman" in Revelation? Or is the "woman" the Jews who will listen to God & flee. They have no specific number.
These are just concepts to think upon & meditate about.
I certainly don't have the answer but w/everyone here looking @ it objectively-it's possible we may keep our current individual conclusions or realize another possibility.
I believe God desires everyone to be saved. But the people saved choose to submit to God & He chooses us to be adopted into His family. I don't believe He picks & chooses who will or will not be saved & we have no free will in the matter. But we know from the past he does pick certain individuals to accomplish His will on earth. And if these individuals are defined as the "elect" then I don't think we could even know who they are in the present time.
But if He picks someone to do something-we also know from the past they better do it. (Otherwise they might end up like Jonah.)What He says goes. He has allowed His perfect will to be downgraded to His acceptable will (for reasons of teaching us a lesson) but the end result is always accomplished.
Therefore if the elect are chosen out of the main group for His purposes then isn't it possible God will not let them be deceived? Or does he choose those he knows won't be deceived?
He chose Judas because He knew Judas would betray Jesus to fulfill prophecy & the rest would not. Right?
Or I can just ignore this whole concept and leave it to "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts & My ways are higher than your ways." & give it up.(I eventually get mentally exhausted from this anyway.)
FYI
The church is the bride of Christ and part of the elect. But as you can see God calls those believers in the OT his elect also.
Listed below are all the scriptures that refer to the "elect."
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Ti 5:21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tts 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
2Jo 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jo 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
Alesia, Your story reminded me of my mom telling about my brother and I dressed in our Sunday clothes and standing in front of the large front window during a lightning storm. Just like the mom in the story, my mom asked what we were doing and we told her that God was taking our picture.
Jib, I'm pray for that lady.
lori
Jib,
Prayed for the lady, too.
My dd's Sunday School class recently saw God do an amazing thing in healing someone.
Their group leader recently became re-acquainted with a man whom he had helped come to know Christ back in Jr. High. The man is a believer now.
His wife was told this spring that she had inoperable cancer throughout her body. There was nothing they could do. This type of cancer doesn't respond to treatment.
The kids in that class have been praying for her. They sent her cards, and prayed.
Her cancer spread and grew around her organs. One kidney failed, then another.
Then, this July, she was praying and God spoke to her. She felt a breeze over her face and knew she was healed.
The Dr.'s were incredulous.
And one group of kids has a tangible evidence of God answering their prayers.
Praise God.
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Homeward Bound, well Glory! That is absolutely wonderful! Don't you just love it when God does it and then gets all of the glory! I still believe with all of my heart that the reason childrens' prayers get answered so faithfully is that THEY EXPECT HIM TO MOVE AND FULFILL THEIR PRAYERS.
My son would always end his prayers with "will you do right away?" and one very pious church lady got really upset with him. When she addressed him with her criticism he looked her in the eyes and said, "well, He didn't say that it was going to take a long time to do it and I just want to let him know I am expecting him to do it quickly". The funny thing is, he always got his prayers answered quickly! Still does!
Love you all and what an encouragement you have been today.
Grany
Mac, Shalom! You wrote:
PS You make some excellent points, Jim.
Which ones? The ones about Condoleezza Rice's sexual worries, or the one about the "Hello Kitty" AR-15? My daughters saw that last one and all wanted one for Christmas, but their mother put her foot down, so they'll have to wait a few more years.
<><
Anonymous,
As you stated-those "elect" passages refer in general terms to Israel in the OT & the Church in the NT.
Those set aside from Satan's children.
But now in looking into more on the "elect" I ran into "Eagles"
Check this out:(From Frank Caw)
Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body (Christ; Rev. 5:6) is, thither will the eagles (saints) be gathered together (i.e., Raptured). (KJV)
Matthew 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (KJV)
The word “carcase” in the Greek is PTOMA, and it can be translated as “dead body, corpse, carcase.” Accordingly, in the above two passages, the words “body, dead body, carcase” are all references to Christ Jesus, the “Lamb as it had been slain” (Rev. 5:6). Likewise, the word “eagle” in both of the above scriptural passages is defined by Strong’s Hebrew-Greek Dictionary as follows:
105 aetos (ah-et-os’); from the same as 109; an eagle (from its wind-like flight): KJV-- eagle.
So, there is no justification for saying the word “eagle” in Matthew 24:28 can also be translated as the word “vulture,” as some commentaries try to do in a vain effort to explain a difficult passage of scripture. Even more so since the above Greek word, translated as “eagle,” is used in yet another prophetic passage of scripture:
Revelation 8:13
....and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth.... (KJV)
The word for “angel” in this passage is actually a mistranslation; it should have been translated as the English word “eagle” because it is based on the same Greek word, AETOS, which we saw previously in Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37. In fact, many translations acknowledge this point by translating it as such. So, the context for this scripture and other parallel passages all indicate this “eagle” is, in reality, a reference to Christian saints in each instance. That clarification in identity explains the following biblical scripture:
Isaiah 40:31
31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. (KJV)
Therefore, in Revelation 8:13, we see eagle Christians warning people on earth that the last three Trumpet-Vial plagues, poised to strike the earth at that future point in time, will be even more severe in their catastrophic impact than the previous plagues. Then in Luke 17:37, we are informed that “eagle Christians” will be Raptured and gathered together wherever Christ, the “Lamb as it had been slain,” may be. Then finally, in Matthew 24:28, Jesus tells us that just prior to His Second Coming with the saints, eagle Christians, i.e., saints, will be gathered around “the dead body,” which as we saw earlier, is Christ, the “Lamb as it had been slain” (Rev. 5:6). So, in all of these prophetic scriptural passages, the word “eagle” is used as a direct reference to Christian believers.
Jim G and Lisa,
You might be interested in a new post I just wrote at Overcomer.
Kathy
Thanks Harold for that link.
Sure is a lot of info to digest.
VERY interesting and amazing stuff!!!
Nice story, Alesia!
Mac, Shalom! You wrote:PS You make some excellent points, Jim.
Sorry, Jim C - I was talking to Jim G but you snuck in before I could post it. I am a very slow typist. Slow at most things. But you do make very good points as well - as does everyone who comments here.
Except Hyde.
I will be praying for a miracle for the woman you wrote about, Jib.
Great links, Lori, thank you!
I agree, great posts and stories from all!
Jeri, Shalom! You wrote:
I am sure that the Anglican Church is not the only one and from reading some earlier posts the RC is not far behind, even say that ‘aliens’ are sinless.
I want to point out that the stories earlier about "aliens", etc. from the RCC involved people who cannot issue official statements on behalf of the RCC. What they were talking about (and what was not made clear in the MSM) is that those statements were speculations and theories. Yes, there may be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. If there is, they will have souls like ours. It may be that there are races that have been preserved from Original Sin. If so, it is very doubtful that these races would be allowed contact with humans (at least until the Millennial Reign), unless contact with us is that particular race's "tempting fruit." However, it is more likely that the only races we would be allowed contact with would be fallen races -- prone to sin and evil as we are.
<><
thank you all for your prayers-I am sure if the family had known they would have appreciated them also. unfortunately it was not to be and she passed away.
from the sounds of her mother and mother in law there appears to be an outside chance that the young lady might have at least heard the gospel at one time whether she accepted Christ or not is yet another story. unfortunately she has passed into eternity for all intents and purposes and her fate is sealed. sometimes I hate my work. I get very introspective when patients die at times because I wonder where they are now.
“But if the "elect" are special prophets or people used by God for specific purposes then maybe that would explain some things.”
God certainly elects people to fulfil his divine will. This applies to the disciples, Judas, Pharaoh etc; however, this does not negate their own free will in the matter.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
These are tough verses. I’ve been rereading Romans off and on for some time now. But I’m going to take a look at what some of the expositors say about this epistle as well.
The Epistle to the Romans
(A Verse By Verse Study)
Shalom, all! Just to add a lighter touch to the conversations, I'd like to point you (and especially those of you of a certain age) to these two web sites:
Retropolis: The Way The Future Was
Retropolis Transit Authority
"Retropolis" is the future as pictured by people who lived in the 1930's, the way the future was supposed to be. As the T-shirt says, "I Still Want My Flying Car." The first link connects to the main site for buying posters and original artwork based around this theme, while the second site lets you buy T-Shirts based on these themes. I bought the "Flying Car" for myself, and "The Retropolis Ladies' World Domination Society" for my daughter. (Their motto: "Don't Make Me Come Down There!")
Enjoy! (And I really do want my flying car...)
<><
Mac,
John MacArthur says the theme of Romans is found in the first chapter where it says the righteous man shall live by faith. We just have to trust the Word on the issues that Paul raises in Romans, especially Romans 9. God's Word is truth. We tend to want to argue with what we don't understand but by faith we should believe what we don't understand.
I enjoyed your post at your blog by MacArthur by the way.
Hi Donna,
Your welcome. I haven't been this excited about a prophetic discovery since I read "Earthquake Resurrection" two years ago. That being said, I think ATTY is even more excited than I am! :-)
One of the things that makes Steve Hadley's scenario extra complying to me is what a Jewish friend of mine told about the feast of Purim.
He said that Purim will be the only feast that will still be celebrated by the Jews after the Messiah comes.
Of course the Jews will think that the AC is the Messiah and that he is coming to earth for the first time.
My Jewish friend also said that Purim is the one time in the year that even the strict Orthodox Jews (the black hats) get drunk out of their minds. This would make sense if the Jews were celebrating the AC (their Messiah) killing the two witnesses that have been pestering them for 3 1/2 years up to that point.
It is interesting that Revelation 11 records that people will rejoice for 3 1/2 days and exchange gifts celebrating the death of the two witnesses.
Revelation 11:8-11 (English Standard Version)
8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
The festival of Purim in the year 2012 is a triple Purim, so the celebration would be over the course of 3 days. This has something to do with it being a Jewish leap year in 2012. The following link is to an article that has some excellent information on it:
"No one knows the day..." Purim?
Finally, in regards to Purim being the festival where Orthodox Jews get really drunk, consider this passage from Isaiah 28 that seems to fit perfectly with the Lord warning the Jews against getting drunk:
Isaiah 28 (English Standard Version)
Judgment on Ephraim and Jerusalem
1 Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,
and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord has one who is mighty and strong;
like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest,
like a storm of mighty, overflowing waters,
he casts down to the earth with his hand.
3 The proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim
will be trodden underfoot;
4 and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley,
will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer:
when someone sees it, he swallows it
as soon as it is in his hand.
5 In that day the LORD of hosts will be a crown of glory,
and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people,
6 and a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
7 These also reel with wine
and stagger with strong drink;
the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,
they are swallowed by wine,
they stagger with strong drink,
they reel in vision,
they stumble in giving judgment.
8 For all tables are full of filthy vomit,
with no space left.
9 "To whom will he teach knowledge,
and to whom will he explain the message?
Those who are weaned from the milk,
those taken from the breast?
10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little."
11 For by people of strange lips
and with a foreign tongue
the LORD will speak to this people,
12 to whom he has said,
"This is rest;
give rest to the weary;
and this is repose";
yet they would not hear.
13 And the word of the LORD will be to themprecept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little,
that they may go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.
A Cornerstone in Zion
14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers,
who rule this people in Jerusalem!
15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death,
and with Sheol we have an agreement,
when the overwhelming whip passes through
it will not come to us,
for we have made lies our refuge,
and in falsehood we have taken shelter";
16 therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am the one who has laid as a foundation in Zion,
a stone, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation:
'Whoever believes will not be in haste.'
17 And I will make justice the line,
and righteousness the plumb line;
and hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,
and waters will overwhelm the shelter."
18 Then your covenant with death will be annulled,
and your agreement with Sheol will not stand;
when the overwhelming scourge passes through,
you will be beaten down by it.
19 As often as it passes through it will take you;
for morning by morning it will pass through,
by day and by night;
and it will be sheer terror to understand the message. 20 For the bed is too short to stretch oneself on,
and the covering too narrow to wrap oneself in.
21 For the LORD will rise up as on Mount Perazim;
as in the Valley of Gibeon he will be roused;
to do his deed—strange is his deed!
and to work his work—alien is his work!
22 Now therefore do not scoff,
lest your bonds be made strong;
for I have heard a decree of destruction
from the Lord GOD of hosts against the whole land.
I am surprised that more people on this blog have not watched/commented on the video I posted above. If Pastor Steve Hadley's theory is correct, we could be raptured next month on Sept 29th or 30th. His suggested timeline for everything fits better than anything I have ever read regarding end times prophecy. I strongly encourage everyone to check out the video.
God Bless,
Harold
Harold,
Great link & info on Purim & the
"sending gifts to one another." From all the Islamic study lately the only thing in my mind was the ritual of Muslims celebrating w/candy over defeats or death.
But it makes sense that when the two Witnesses are killed after 3 1/2 years (In Jerusalem) that Purim & the passing out of candy of the Jewish Purim tradition would coincide w/the Purim date of March 12th 2012.(14th Adar) taking the Blood Moon 2015 date & scenario into account.
So this was really enlightening. (I also sent the link to my old SD Pastor.)
Mac,
We can see from Old Testament examples that people have always had free will. Otherwise God's divine will would have ALWAYS been followed. He allowed His acceptable (but not as good) will to be carried out instead because the Jews chose not to follow the original suggestions or commands.
So back to the chosen & elect status. The only way I can make sense of it is to view this concept as He knew before our existence began who would submit & follow Him (until death) & who would not.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if possible, even the elect.
So if your really the elect-then your going to finish the race by taking heed of all the warnings, remaining on guard & abiding in Christ.
At the end of the day-it was not possible to seduce the elect because if it were-Satan would have tricked them.(You know he's trying to get us @ every opportunity! Or at least silence us if he can't entirely seduce us)
Jib,
I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your patient. Not knowing if she was saved, or not, is hard, I know.
But it can motivate us all to be praying for other's salvation. We need to work while it's still day. Because the night is coming when no man can work. Something to keep in our heart of hearts.
Has anyone read, The Shack, by William P. Young? I just finished reading it, and while it's rather odd, in describing God? The key word here is it's a work of fiction. And it does get one to think about God, in perhaps a different light? Because God is good.
When Oral Roberts said that, (God is a good God) in the 1950's, he received all kinds of flack from Ministers.
Anyhow, I enjoyed the book, for the most part. Especially the last half of the book. It is especially good! Just my thoughts :)
Jib, my heart goes out to you.
Thanks for the comments, Kathy.
I admire (though not always agree with) John MacArthur. I love the way he regularly sticks up for the "Old Rugged Cross" against the post-modern, emergent types who are peddling universalism.
I agree; there are many things we need to believe by faith because our minds are finite.
Harold, I haven't had a chance to take a look at that video yet, but will do so soon.
Jib - Sorry, binky.
Harold - Ok, you shamed me into watching it (ha, ha) just finished. Very interesting.
The first thing I thought of when I heard about the 30 day gap was something I commented on awhile ago... there was talk about a 30 day gap between when those alive will rise & then 30 days (or thereabout) the dead will rise. Any thoughts about that? Could there be a connection?
Marge - There has been MUCH talk about "The Shack" & how it should be avoided, as it is New Age-y. I believe GT made a comment about it long ago? Perhaps GT, you could refresh our memories?
You may want to do a search for it to see what some scholars are saying negatively about the book.
Marge; I know that Lambert Dolphin (whose opinions I respect) recommends "The Shack"... Recommended: William P. Young, The Shack, This highly unorthodox novel is all about our intimate relationship with our God under the terms of the New Covenant.
Strongholds
A lot of the discernment ministries are warning against the book - for example, Jan Markell (who I also highly respect). But, apart from that, I can't comment as I don't know too much about it.
Alesia; you go sleepy now if you want to wake up bright eyed and bushy tailed!
I agree, I would highly suggest folks watch the link Harold sent in. It is kind of long...and I have a hard time sitting still...but I do plan to watch it again and this time will take some notes!
Jib, I am so sorry to hear that this young woman passed away.
Hang in there though! I am sure you did all that you could!
I agree with what Marge says...we must continue to pray for all people.
Grany, I keep thinking about things you've written lately, including how people thought FDR was the Antichrist.
I never knew that before.
You've been aware of all of this stuff for longer than most of us have been born. I was wondering if
you think these times do in fact seem like we are closer to HIs return...with all that is going on in the world.
It sure seems so to me! But I guess every generation has thought that!
Marge I have not read or heard of the Shack.
I am reading the Silence is Broken now and it is one of the most thorough books I have ever read on the end times.
The writer is a retired detective and is very into detail. He brings up many different perspectives and looks at many different angles on all of the different issues.
So far he comes to the same conclusions that many traditional eschatology teachers teach (such as from Dallas Theological Seminary).
Here's one of the reviews I ran across: A critique of The Shack
Quick question: is anyone else here going to do The Feast of Trumpets Wave?
<><
Jim C,
I am signed up to join in on the wave. It is the same time that Steve Hadley is suggesting that the rapture could happen.
I was looking at my calendar the other day to see what is going on for the day and asking God if I will be doing this by myself.
My family (and friends for the most part) have no interest in anything Israel or the rapture and are going to think I am a nut job.
I am going to listen to the link as soon as I get a bit of extra time. I have been listening to some of Steve Hadley's sermons lately Harold!
Grace
Grace
Dear Mr Carroll, is there any particular method of performing said wave?
MWA!
I can even blow that shofar I bought.The kids each have a plastic one. The ram's horn does smell a little if you stick your nose in it.It's not noticeable when you actually blow it.
Tip-you have to yield your lips & keep them loose.(Had to look up the trick on the internet as just blowing in it did nothing.)
Loose lips sink ships but they make the shofar work.
The Trumpet Video is loud enough on my computer to be heard by your neighbors.
Mac has an old bull horn. He's pretty good at blowing his own trumpet as well.
Harold; the Steve Hadley video is compelling. I must say that out of all the speculations I’ve heard of lately, his is the most interesting. I thought his placing the 2 witnesses in the first half of the week (rather than the latter) and their function in that period, was spot on! Thanks for posting and say hi to ATTY.
Mr. Hyde,
Your post on "The Eternal Goal" is wonderful. Thank you.
I don't remember right now who mentioned that he/she thought that Purim was going to be the only feast that would be celebrated by the Jews during the 1,000 year kingdom, but I think he is mistaken.
Zachariah seems to indicate that the feast of tabernacles will be observed and punishment will be meted out if not kept in Jerusalem.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Does anyone know where the Purim celebration is even mentioned in the Holy Scriptures? I do not know of any.
Several of my friends sent me the link to the sermon by Steve Hadley this morning. It was very very interesting. I think he has found the answer to the 1,290 days found in Daniel 12:11. Now, I can't wait until God reveals to someone the mystery of the 1,335 days mentioned in verse 12. The angel did tell Daniel to shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end...........
See you "in the air." soon and very soon.
Anony; you're right about the feast of Tabernacles in the Millennium. Here's an article I found on Purim linked with Esther:
The Feast of Purim: A Jewish Mardi Gras (Esther 8:1—10:3)
And this as well: Purim
Mac,
Thanks for that article. Boy, he sure brought out some things that I had never thought about.
Esther is not a book I have studied very often. I had even forgotten about the 2 day celebrations that was actually written in the book.
I had done a search of "feast of Purim" and came up empty. Then, when I just searched for Purim, it showed the verses in chapter 9 of Esher. Purim is not mentioned in any of the other scriptures. So, I really doubt if it will be celebrated in the future Kingdom.
Again, thanks.
Alesia,
I shamed you into watching the video? Exxxxxcellent! Mission accomplished! :-)
Donna,
The Silence is Broken is an excellent book. It is without a doubt the most thorough book written on the Battle of Gog and Magog.
Up until a little while ago, I thought Douglas Berner (and Chuck Missler and Tim Lahaye) had the timeline of Gog and Magog correct. They all thought that it would occur 3 1/2 years before the start of the 7 years of tribulation. Their reasoning was that Israel needed 7 years to burn the left over weapons and they did not think the Jews would be able to burn the weapons past the mid-point of the 7 years as they would be chased by the AC into the wilderness.
However, now I am trying to figure out how Gog and Magog can fit into Steve Hadley and Mark Biltz timeline. I don't think it is a coincidence that Ezekiel records that Israel burns the weapons for 7 years and the tribulation period is for 7 years. I think this has to be the same 7 years.
If we do get rapture on Sept 29/30th, maybe Gog and Magog occurs within 30 days of that (Octoberish). Since Steve thinks there is an extra 30 days between the killing of the two witnesses and the start of the second 1260 day period, that would allow a 30 day window for Gog and Magog to happen after the start of the 7 years (the rapture)and still give Israel 7 years to burn the weapons before Sept. 23, 2015 (provided some of the Israelis are indeed still able to burn the weapons during the AC's persecution during the second half of the tribulation).
Lisa,
I knew you would be on top of this "blood moon" related stuff. :-)
Mac,
Thanks for the Purim links. They look fairly long, so I will have to check them out later today (I have to go to work now :-( ).
I said hi to Atty for you and told him he should stop by. He is kind of "Grumpy" sometimes and doesn't like to leave his own cave. :-)
Anonymous,
I am not sure how the 1335 days in Daniel are explained. Maybe the extra 45 days are the period in which Jesus purifies the temple, or separates the sheep from the goats?
God Bless,
Harold
The Cutting Edgenewsletter has some interesting thoughts in it.
Mind Control using either HAARP or Scalar Electro-magnetic waves is one of the most important issues of this 21st Century. This technology might be used to fulfill this Bible prophecy...
Campaign To Discredit George Bush Seems To Be Moving Into Higher Gear".
The Israeli Air Defense chief announces that Israel can defend itself against ALL of the ballistic missile threats it faces in the entire Middle East!
If Israel deploys a "Tesla Shield" over her tiny country, it does not matter how many missiles Hizbullah, or Hamas, or Iran possesses.
NEWS BRIEF: "Former minister Sharansky Backs McCain, Calls Obama a 'Risk' To Israel", by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu, Israel National News, August 6, 2008
Obama site: Jews must be 'burned' - Anti-Semites congregate on candidate's official presidential campaign blog", By Aaron Klein, August 5, 2008
Joel's new post "IS WAR WITH IRAN "UNAVOIDABLE"? Yes, says the man who could be Israel's next leader" gives some food for thought.
Mofaz sounds as "hawkish" as Bibi.
It's interesting that Mofaz was born in Iran, in 1948 of all years.
Donna,
I had never heard about, the Shack, until a couple of days ago. I went into Borders Books and they had a huge amount of copies, so I bought one.
Also, my last candidate for the AC was Henry Kissinger :) Since then I've completely given up on looking for the AC. I'm more concerned with looking for Jesus Christ, in the rapture :) As I know we all are, right?
Mac,
I believe the book IS all about N.T. relationship with our Lord. If anyone wants to think "outside" the box for a couple of hours, I believe they will not only enjoy the book, the Shack, but they could very well benefit from it as well.
And I can understand where Olive Tree Ministries (Jan Markel) would be against reading the book. It could lead someone that isn't grounded in the Word of God, down a New Age path. I'll give her that. But then again, it is a work of fiction. IMO that says it all.
Alesia,
Thanks for the information. If I would have known it was a book that wasn't being accepted, I might not have bought it. But, I have to say, that the last half of the book, is pretty special. I enjoyed the book. A good read, for anyone willing to look at things from a different perspective, at least.
Just a few thoughts.
God bless, and enjoy a great day in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Donna,
I thought the year Mofaz was born and his birth place were very interesting as well. Who knows, maybe I should add him to the possible AC list. :-)
Interesting. I don't think I have ever considered anyone in particular to be the antichrist until recently.
It seemed that Solana might be a good candidate...then very recently it seemed Sarkozy could be a possibility, espec is he becomes the first permanent president of the EU.
NOw with all the talk about the AC possibly being someone with a middle eastern background, I have no clue what to think!
Seems to be pure speculation and not something I spend a lot of time considering.
It would be interesting to see a list you may have of possible candidates, Harold!
:)
It just happened to me again.
I was in the Christian bookstore purchasing a Bible & the Rosenburg Epicenter video for someone.
I get into the car and open the new Bible because I want to put the fabric bookmark in Matthew.
So low & behold where do you think the bookmark is when I open the Bible?
It's right @ Ester 8 & 9. "The Feast of Purim."
Donna, you asked about my remark rgarding FDR and it brought back many, many memories of my childhood in Iowa. I was born in 1934 (Christmas day to be exact) and as most of you know, those were very lean years for the whole world. The Great Depression didn't just affect the USA but in fact, the whole world was in decline. World War One was already being the fodder for the rage of the Fuhrer and true Germany had suffered greatly because of their role in WWI. I lived in a very nice Christian community that was the home of a very prosperous industrial complex. There was work available and the owners of this network were basically German and Dutch descent.
You have to remember that FDR came into power after his election in November of 1932. His greatest desire was to bring about the well being and financial health of the USA and to aid the countries that we were closely associated with. It wasn't as easy then as it is now simply because there was a different mind set as regards the sovereign right of individual nations. There was a general lack of good communication with those outside your national borders. There wasn't an organization of any type like the UN. Woodrow Wilson had attempted to create a League of Nations but that failed miserably.
The social programs FDR initiated were fought tooth and toenail by the elite group. Roosevelt brought about many changes simply by bypassing government agencies and legislative processes. The WPA became the source of recovery and you can still see a lot of those building structures throughout the USA today. A lot of the concrete bridges that you see along the old country roads and highway systems were WPA and schools, water works, sewerage plants, city halls, etc. were built with the workers who were employed by WPA funds. No one living through those times ever forgot how quickly it happened and what a drastic change it brought to their life.
By March 1933 there were 13,000,000 unemployed, and almost every bank was closed. In his first "hundred days," he proposed, and Congress enacted, a sweeping program to bring recovery to business and agriculture, relief to the unemployed and to those in danger of losing farms and homes, and reform, especially through the establishment of the Tennessee Valley Authority.
By 1935 the Nation had achieved some measure of recovery, but businessmen and bankers were turning more and more against Roosevelt's New Deal program. They feared his experiments, were appalled because he had taken the Nation off the gold standard and allowed deficits in the budget, and disliked the concessions to labor. Roosevelt responded with a new program of reform: Social Security, heavier taxes on the wealthy, new controls over banks and public utilities, and an enormous work relief program for the unemployed.
In 1936 he was re-elected by a top-heavy margin. Feeling he was armed with a popular mandate, he sought legislation to enlarge the Supreme Court, which had been invalidating key New Deal measures. Roosevelt lost the Supreme Court battle, but a revolution in constitutional law took place. Thereafter the Government could legally regulate the economy.
Roosevelt had pledged the United States to the "good neighbor" policy, transforming the Monroe Doctrine from a unilateral American manifesto into arrangements for mutual action against aggressors. He also sought through neutrality legislation to keep the United States out of the war in Europe, yet at the same time to strengthen nations threatened or attacked. When France fell and England came under siege in 1940, he began to send Great Britain all possible aid short of actual military involvement.
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, Roosevelt directed organization of the Nation's manpower and resources for global war.
But the charge of being the Anti-Christ was echoed in the Republican congress and his battles with the legislative branches of government are well documented. Of course, the common man, as everyone who worked for a living was called, loved FDR and to this day, that is the battle cry and criteria that all other presidents are judged by. He was not perfect but he had Charisma that paved the way for his success.
He was an Anti-Christ in some ways because the people as a general rule worshiped him and many thought of him as Savior. Of course, he had his despisers and they were many but the cadre of workers far out numbered them all.
Me? I was just a little kid but my household truly loved him. There was much about him that you had to admire but in the after years, things came to light that made him become what he really was, just a man who was ordained by God to serve a nation that had to have such a man as leader. Far from perfect and full of unrighteousness but never the less, a leader.
So, now you know the year I was born, the state I was hatched in and also, my families political foundations.
Sorry for the length of the comment but,,,,,
HAROLD, give my best to ATTY (The Grump) and tell him I am still praying for him to come through all of this financial mess with flying colors and enriched faith in the keeper of our souls.
Grany
Grany,
Thanks for a great lesson in history, as it really happened. And not re-writen.
Although I was born after WW2, (1947) I still remember my Mother telling me about a lady in our neighborhood, (and also a good friend of our family) who threw a PARTY when FDR died :( Needless to say, my Mother didn't attend, and she could hardly believe it. Me, either. Yikes, huh?
Thanks for the confirmation about who Atty was, too.
Harold,
Tell Grumpy hello, where ever he is, okay?
just a thought on the whole purim connection
while I haven't watched the whole video (i do intend to though) my inital thought is that it is artifical (I'll let you know if I still feel the same after I view the entire video).
if Hadley is basing this mostly on the feasting and giving of gifts at the death of the 2 witnesses (which in my reading takes place at about the mid trib time as they appear to be witnesses before the Abomination, before the indwelling of the AC by Satan and during the first part of the trib ie the 1st 3.5 weeks) I think he's wrong because the scripture says "the whole world" will rejoice-not just the jews and in fact it doesn't single the jews out at all. so if it is the whole world rejoicing at their death why is the whole world celebrating a minor jewish holiday? I find it more likely that the reason people are celebrating is that the witnesses were testifying to Christ and causing all sorts of mayhem (depending on your perspective) which was making the general population's life miserable. they would be speaking out against the rampant immorality of the day which is never popular with the immoral. so I don't find it at all amazing that when the AC destroys the 2 witnesses people would be overjoyed. in fact i would expect a carnival or mardi gras type atmosphere to ensue frankly.
further i have always gotten the impression that the only feast which will be celebrated will be the feast of tabernacles.
Wow, great story, Grany, thanks for sharing it with us!
Are we comparing oranges and apples here with the discussion of the celebration of Purim during the 70th week of Daniel and the feast of tabernacles being the only feast mentioned in the Bible as being mandantory during the millennial kingdom?
The two witnesses will be killed during the tribulation not the millennial kingdom.
We also know that sacrifices will be done at the temple during the millennial kingdom also.
Grany, Shalom! You might be interested in this book: The Plot to Seize the White House: The Shocking True Story of the Conspiracy to Overthrow FDR. It details the plans by industrialists and business leaders to use the discontent inspired by the Bonus Army to accomplish a coup d'etat and take over the government without firing a shot.
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This is a very disturbing story of child abuse and neglect. This girl will be in my prayers.
The girl in the window
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Marge: re The Shack - fair to say that I'm a big fan of Lewis' Narnian Chronicles and the discernment people give them flak as well.
Jib, you're correct about the nations celebrating the death of the 2 witnesses, although I didn't think it was a major flaw in Hadley's theory. It's also one of the reasons why I believe that the the witnesses appear in the 1st half of the week. The nations are unlikely to be celebrating at the end of the week under the final judgments. The 2 witnesses' roles in the first part of the week is also further indication of God's judgment beginning at the start of the week.
Harold, tell ATTY I have my own grumpy moments when I let Hyde out of the closet. Not as often these days, fortunately.
Rice on possible IDF Iran strike: U.S. has no veto over Israeli military ops
Britain Bans Israeli Citizens In Yesha from Embassy Functions
European parliament chief: EU ready to broker Israel-Syria talks
Why Netanyahu is ahead
Saudis to Christians: Get out
Report: Coalition Seeks to Impeach Pakistani President Musharraf
Olmert pushes ahead on Palestinian, Syrian peace tracks
Two and a half cheers for the Mediterranean Union
Secret EU report moots sharing personal data with US
Chinese Islamists Threaten Olympics: US Group
Hello all and thank you Grany for that long post. I thought it was wonderful!!!
Jib, concerning the world celebrating versus just Israel celebrating because of Purim, I think it was Joel Richardson at JoelsTrumpet.com (or some else since I can't remember) who makes an excellent case for the bible being Middle Eastern-centric and that references to the world in the bible are references to the Middle Eastern world. I haven't looked yet but maybe checking a concordance might help. I know when I checked the word "mixed" as in iron mixed with miry clay in a concordance, I was shocked at the word that came up, which now has me leaning to a Middle Eastern end-times paradigm, even though I still think the RCC will play some apostate role in it.
By the way, I highly recommend Pastor Steve Hadley's videos. I've watched almost all of them and they are all excellent
anonymous
I don't recall anyone implying or suggesting that the witnesses were in the millennial kingdom-my point was that they are in the first part of the week, not the second part of the week since I got the impression from what Harold wrote that Hadley was placing them in the second half of the week. I don't consider the sacrifices at the temple to be feasts so don't know that that counts. I just finished up Dr Frucht's book "footsteps of the messiah" and I do believe he did say that Tabernacles was the only feast to be observed.
I don't know that I agree with that-I guess it depends on whether one considers communion to still be passover. Christ gave a new feast He said that He would not partake of until He came again which suggests at leas to me what we know as communion will be observed but will it still contain elements of the old passover feast? I would venture to say that some of the feasts would be redundant to an extent since Christ and God and the Holy Spirit are daily and always present. Further I think that the sacrifices are for the Jews only and not the gentile nations-to make up for all the times they weren't done and in commemoration of Christ's work not in place of Christ's work.
Gee Mac-wonder why Hyde's less grumpy these days??? I agree about the Narnian books-they are wonderful and great literature. Of course I read a lot of greek and roman mythology when younger as well. I find the thought that it might have been true after a fashion in the form of the nephilium to be just fascinating and gives me new perspectives on the myths of old.
As to it not being an overwhelming flaw-perhaps not but if it is the main argument in favor of what one is hypothesizing I think perhaps one might need to consider it more than a minor flaw.
I will try to have a chance to listen to it tonight. I started it once today and had to stop we'll see
Grany
Still a great story though not an FDR fan-I think many of the problems we have today with the entitlement issues,gover't spending spiraling out of control, the devaluation of the dollar etc can be directly traced back to FDR. There are many excellent economists and in fact historians that point out that FDR's programs actually delayed the length of the depression and that WW2 is what actually pulled the US out of the depression.
ATTY
good to see you
Maybe but when the Bible says that Christ died for the whole world the same word for world is used in both places I believe. so if the end times stuff is only applicable to the Mid East "world" one could make the case then that Christ didn't die for us and we are just fooling ourselves.
sorry, don't by the theory that it's just going to be the ME involved in the end times because it is a judgment of the nations and people everywhere not just the middle east.
Jib; yes I do wonder...
Good to see you, ATTY. Thanks for stopping by. Take care.
jib,
It was a Jewish person that told me that it was his understanding that only the feast of Purim would be celebrated after the Messiah comes. This is from a purely Jewish view point. This person is not a Christian. He is a Jew who does not believe in Christ or the New Testament. His view that of only Purim being celebrated after the Messiah comes maybe a reflection of what many Orthodox Jews believe. If this is indeed the case, it makes sense that Purim would be the festival that is celebrated after the AC (who the Jews at this point will think is the Messiah) kills the two witnesses. It is only after the 3 1/2 days of celebrating, the witnesses are resurrected and the AC sets up the AOD in the Temple and demands that everyone worships him as God that the Jews realize their horrible mistake.
It becomes even more compelling when you add the fact that Purim in 2012 is a triple Purim. This is not likely just a coincidence. Purim is also not one of the 7 Jewish Festivals mentioned in Leviticus 23 (as the events in the book of Esther had not taken place yet) and is not a festival that Jesus is destined to fulfill.
As for expecting a Mardi Gras type atmosphere after the witnesses are killed, it is my understanding that Purim is the big drunk-fest of the year for Jews. As I mentioned previously, even the black hats get completely tanked out of their minds on this day. It totally fits with Isaiah's warning in Isaiah 28.
We have to keep in mind that the Bible is centered on Israel, particularly Jerusalem. Everything must be filtered through this. When the Bible talks about everyone celebrating, it could very well be talking about it being centered in Jerusalem where the witnesses are.
Along the same lines, I think a mistake that most end times Bible scholars have made over the years is assuming that the 4th and final empire represented by the statue in Daniel has to be the Roman Empire.
We have to keep in mind who had this dream and what their frame of reference would be. It was Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar would have been concerned with what empire would take over his empire of Babylon.
As we all know, Babylon was conquered by the Medes and Persians, and then by the Greeks. The next empire to conquer and occupy Babylon was the Sassanid Empire in about 610 AD followed by the Caliphate and several other Islamic empires for the next 1400 years. Roman never conquered and occupied Babylon.
So...from Nebuchadnezzar's point of view, the next empire after the Persians, and the Greeks to conquer and occupy Babylon was Islamic, or at the very least Arab.
God Bless,
Harold
Jib, I'm not asking you or anyone else to "buy" into Pastor Hadley or Pastor Biltz's theory.
By the way, the first three choices for "World" in Strong's Concordance don't reconcile with your interpretation of the word "World". Can you cite something for me?
I think it's reasonable to presume that Strong's has their choices listed in the order of importance or relevance as does a dictionary, thesaurus, or other reference book. I'm not saying "I know for a fact" that Pastor Hadley or Biltz is correct, but I haven't seen anyone refuting their theories with any evidence, and if so, with nowhere near the mountain of evidence they have cited to the contrary.
It's important not to be so dogmatic about things that one becomes absolutely closeminded, but I think it's worse to draw conclusions however qualified as "initially", while simultaneously acknowledging not having seen the whole video. (e.g., "while I haven't watched the whole video (i do intend to though) my inital thought is that it is artifical".
I'm not referring to you here in this next statement, but I'm always amazed that no matter how many times a Pastor or anyone else says they are not date setting, people will accuse them of such, for simply calling out to be watchful of signs in the heavens and the appointed times, the very thing we're commanded to do. And those things (e.g., signs in the heavens and apponited times) HAVE DATES, but that doesn't mean someone is date setting, just date watching, a big difference. Again, I'm not referring to you, but you got me going here, I think Pastor Biltz said in his video that the Church almost brags about being ignorant of these things, and I think he is ABSOLUTELY correct. It's the same thing that makes so many Christians (not those on this blog of course) unwilling to discuss or even acknowledge the relevance or importance of prophecy, even though we're learning more and more every day how much more prophetic the bible actually is, not to mention the most prophetic book in the bible (Rev) is the only one you get a special blessing for reading (Rev 1:3).
Jib, I also never said it's only going to be the Middle East involved in the end times. Please read what I posted. I said others have made an excellent case that references to the world are references to the Middle East, but this has nothing to do with what will actually happen elsewhere.
Think about this, other than the use of the word "World", which is an interpreted word, where in the bible are there references to the other 80% of the planet not surrounding the Middle East?
OK, I'm done. Be back next year for my annual rant ; )
Come on now, ATTY, don't make us wait another year to hear from you again!
It's wonderful to see you posting!
Grumps!!!!
Me so happy to see your name & post!
Please do rant away - I've missed it so.
Besides Mac frequently goes on rants & would love the company :-) LOL
Well said Atty! He is out of his cave and he is Grumpy! He is kind of like a cave bear that just woke up from a long hibernation. :-)
Very few Christians that I know of are into eschatology.
When I explain to people (who are Christians) that about 1/3 of the Bible is eschatology related and that its important to know what it says and pass it along to others, they look at me with blank stares or like I am nuts.
Non Christians seem more interested in it than Christians!
Jim C.,
Oh, that story "girl in the window" absolutely broke my heart - I'm feeling sick to my stomach thinking about it. Dear Lord, what that poor thing must have went through.
Praise God for her new parents. Yes, prayers are most needed for her.
Oh & also...
Thank you SO much Lori for posting the news links.
I know it must take a good amount of time to do so & I so appreciate you for it!
ATTY!
Yeah- I'm going to celebrate the return of your presence!
Your really not going to make us wait in suspense for another 12 months are you?
I was thinking about this today. What if we ask Jesus if He'll allow us to organize a Hyde's blogger reunion in our heavenly future?
We've seen a few pictures but wouldn't it be great to re-connect & get to know each other even better in the millenniums to come!
Wouldn't you know~ I took a longgggg nap this afternoon and missed our ATTY (The Grump)! Well, ATTY just seeing your name and comments cheered my over heated heart immensely.
This new discussion is really getting my heart rate up and I think the oil is flowing very nicely now in my bod! I have been reading E. W. Bullinger's book "Commentary on Revelation" and it is excellent material. Dr. Bullinger is of the mind set that the whole of the Book of Revelation is written to and addressing Israel. He has many solid basis for this theory and states that one of the reasons for the great confusion regarding the rapture and the subsequent Second Coming of the Jews' Messiah is because of the misapplication of trying to apply the book to the church. He is of the firm belief that only the first 3 1/2 chapters can even remotely be construed as church related. All of the symmbols are Jewish and relate to the time after the rapture of the church. Even the text to which it has been assigned (Greek) is a form of Hebrew Greek formation and structure.
I am still studying it but it is a very good read. If this is a fact, then the same thing could be said for other books of the New Testament. He also goes on to state something that Dr. Fruchtenbaum has said, that all of the scriptures are to the church but not all are about the church; All of the scriptures are about Jesus Christ and point to and bring the Glory of God.
OK, Harold I am going to break down and go watch the videos in discussion. I am sure my hubby will welcome the change from listening to my computer connection to the Prophecy Conference I have been watching.
JIB, some people truly do believe that FDR prolonged the depression but not the men who were starving in lines trying to find a job just so they could feed their families. The Depression was a prolonged period of time related to unwise credit and prolonged gambling. Hoover did nothing to redirect the tide of disaster because he really didn't know what to do. He was a great organizer but for some unknown reason, he found it impossible to function adequately in this debacle.
WW2 didn't find the USA well situated militarily and in fact, the legislature only missed by one vote to end the military draft, it was on August 12, 1941, 25 years after the U.S. entry into World War I, and just 98 days prior to Japan attacking Pearl Harbor by a margin of just one vote, the U.S. House of Representatives extended a hastily revived draft. ONE VOTE!
My uncle was a Colonel in the US Army and he told many tales of combat training with wooden guns and other such silly substitutes.
We were on the very brink of war, with Hitler running over everyone who got in his way and Japan taking on imperial plans of conquest. No one was stopping them and we were faced with a new element in this country: Pacifism and isolationism. The ties to the old world from which almost every citizen of this country came from, were strong and clouding the thinking of people in high places in their decision making process.
In 1933, there were 13 MIllion men out of work in the USA and people were dying because of it. It wasn't just Wall Street that was throwing their selves off of buildings and bridges. The railroad system of this country regularly carried men who were riding in boxcars from one place to another trying to get work. They were classified as bums by people who didn't have a clue what was really taking place. Cars? Well there had been cars galore but not unlike our situation of today, most of them were being kept parked and covered in garages or barns or whatever because there wasn't money for gas and all that goes into running them. No market to see them either.
Men were not failing because they wouldn't work; the factories were closed, the banks were closed, the hospitals were just barely functioning and no one was getting rich. People took drastic measures to survive and believe me, I remember the Salvation Army people collecting clothing with open arms and we wore hand-me-downs gratefully. We had brown shoes and block shoes and in the summer, white shoes but they were all gender neutral. You had to keep your Sunday best for Sunday and no slopping in the mud and water puddles with your shoes on. The family physicians made house calls to take care of the sick and to stem the flow of communicable diseases the health departments would place a quarantine posting on the front and back door of every home that was under attack. Small pox, measles, diphtheria, polio, typhus, yellow fever were not uncommon and the different diseases were represented by different color postings. These were about 14 X 16 inches in size and were nailed to the houses. If you had a brick home, they were stuck to the entrance of the house.
So, my point in saying all of this, it is easy to be critical of the methods FDR used to bring recovery to this nation and to be an encourager to foreign nations as well. It is always easier to be a Sunday Quarterback than a active participant in the real battle but true liberalism came about on the shirt tails of the recovery from the depression. Roosevelt showed them a whole new way and method of overcoming the Good Ole Boy organization and the perfect government is still trying to get it's motor started. There is never going to be a perfect government outside the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ. But, I truly believe there will be people who will find fault with that era also.
Now I gotta go watch the video that Harold and Grumpy (ATTY) recommended.
Grany
Donna,
Here is a latest "Christian" example of prophetic interest.
My next door neighbors. They are "Christian" I don't know what type. The wife is very friendly & always goes out of her way to say hello. (We share a driveway w/them)
Our kids play together & I visit w/her but she's never brought up any "Christian" conversation.
I mentioned a couple things but it's never amounted to any prolonged conversation.(Figured she was the "Sunday" type but I don't know.)
We are @ their pool yesterday afternoon so I brought my latest book to read "Mysterious Monuments-Encyclopedia of Secret Illuminati Designs, Masonic Architecture,& Occult Places", by Texe Marrs.
(I was going to tell you anyway-so far so good. Its thick w/lots of pictures. My Bachelor's in Fine Arts so it's quite interesting to me. Always wondered what those famous monuments really symbolized)
She was curious so she asked me about the book. I told her the just of it and asked her if she's heard of the Illuminati- "no" heard of the 33 degree Masons- "no." then you realize we could almost be at the war of Gog & Magog that Ezekiel speaks of ? "no"-What's that?
I could tell this really peaked her interest. She admitted to almost not wanting to know about these types of things-sounded scary.
Then I mentioned that we are told to "watch" & about the "special blessing" in Revelation. Plus there is nothing to worry about being one in Christ.
She agreed with that and asked me if I had any prophetic books or info she could see. (Oh boy-I had to restrain myself! Do I ever-But I know better. That would scare her off for sure!) So I thought of one to give her "The Silence is Now Broken" & she mentioned she would like to read it & wanted to get a new book anyway. I has asked her if she was interested in the "Mysterious Monuments" when I was done w/it-& she was.
So I guess the point is-you never really know until the right time & situation come up.
It gets discouraging. I've tried to talk w/Christians & non about End Times but more often that not-the interest just isn't there.
Not only are Christians not of the "World" but the prophetic minded Christians are even further removed.
I don't know if we are looked down upon by other Christians but rather just looked at as "odd."
The most effective way I deal w/the stigma & rejection is repeat to myself: Humility, Humility,...
When someone says something condescending or prideful - I just think of Humility & not to retaliate.
In fact Humility has been on my prayer requests. Since Pride is the root of most problems-Humility must be the it's antidote.If we just give it all back to Christ-He takes care of all things & knows our frustrations and struggles.
Then once in awhile-a big suprise like the lady next door appears.
Greg Laurie’s blog – on his son
Grany, when you said:
...No one was stopping them and we were faced with a new element in this country: Pacifism and isolationism.
It made me think. The only thing more naive and stupid might be pacifism and internationalism (or golablism) which is what certain elements in the United States (and I suppose elsewhere) now promote.
When history repeats itself, it often get's worse the second time around. Hold on to the Lord folks, we're in for a wild ride!
But those who hold on to Him to the end will be saved. Praise God!
Shalom, all! Forget Dubai and their "world's tallest tower" -- Kuwait is the place to be!
Kuwait building world's tallest tower, huge rail network
Just check out where those rail stops will be...
<><
Thanks Jim C. for posting the story about "The Girl in the Window".
It was very touching. We need to pray for her and her family but also praise the Lord for her and her family. She is precious and will be made completely whole someday. Still, even in her broken condition (we're all broken in some way) she reflects the image of God. Someday, we will see Dani in heaven and praise the Lord for his mighty works and redemptive power and mercy and grace side by side with Dani.
That is of course my son you see in the pic. His name is Daniel. He was adopted too! There is a wonderful story behind that as well. Please pray for his birthmom. Her name is Danielle. We really desire for the Lord to do a miracle in her life. We are so incredibly blessed that the Lord chose us to be Daniel's parents. He has been such a blessing. He's not even two years old yet and 2 nights ago on his own he reached up for our hands and wanted to pray! We can't yet understand what he says when he prays except for the amen at the end. But he closes his eyes, bows his head, and talks to the Lord already! He also loves the song Amazing Grace. Of course my wife and I do too.
ATTY
after some research I have found the following about the word "world" as used in the Bible
the word Kosmos is used for example in John 3:16 and
""is used to denote (a) the "earth," e.g., Matt. 13;35; Jhn 21:25; Act 17:24; Rom 1:20 (probably here the universe: it had this meaning among the Greeks, owing to the order observable in it); 1Ti 6:7; Hbr 4:3; 9:26; (b) the "earth" in contrast with Heaven, 1Jo 3:17 ( perhaps also Rom 4:13); (c) by metonymy, the "human race, mankind," e.g., Mat 5:14; Jhn 1:9 [here "that cometh (RV, 'coming') into the world" is said of Christ, not of "every man;" by His coming into the world He was the light for all men]; 1Jo 3:10; 3:16,17 (thrice),19; 4:42, and frequently in Rom. 1 Cor. and 1 John; (d) "Gentiles" as distinguished from Jews, e.g., Rom 11:12,15, where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cp. 2Cr 5:19); (e) the "present condition of human affairs," in alienation from and opposition to God, e.g., Jhn 7:7; 8:23; 14:30; 1Cr 2:12; Gal 4:3; 6:14; Col 2:8; Jam 1:27; 1Jo 4:5 (thrice); 5:19; (f) the "sum of temporal possessions," Mat 16:26; 1Cr 7:31 (1st part); (g) metaphorically, of the "tongue" as "a world (of iniquity)," Jam 3:6; expressive of magnitude and variety. "
aion which is used in various verses to mean "age" as in a period of time
and oikoumene which can mean either the whole inhabited world or can specifically refer to the roman world
Rev 3:10 is an example of the word usage for the whole inhabited world
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
gen 6 uses the word earth (strong's number 776) which means
land, earth
a) earth
1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
3) earth (inhabitants)
so essentially the same meaning as the usage in Rev 3:10.
You might note I never said a word about "date setting" I said I just thought it was artificial to say that because there was a massive 3 day party (which by the way only comes to an end because God raises the 2 from the dead in front of the entire world after 3 days) after the witnesses were killed, that since the feast of Purim is a 3 day feast, that it somehow must be connected to the feast of Purim. no more no less.
yes maybe we can know the time and season, and you are probably correct in saying that the vast majority in the church could care less but as Joel and others have said-you don't interpret the scripture in light of world events or happenings and then try to pigeon hole your eschatology to somehow make it fit with the news and events you should be interpreting world events and happenings in light of scripture. So what that the feast of Purim in 2012 is a somehow a special triple feast time. Why does that have to have any other significance than that?
My other comment still stands-why would the entire earth (strong's number 1093 with either meaning b or c here both essentially meaning the whole inhabited world-meaning a refers to arable land which doesn't fit the context) be participating in a jewish holiday to celebrate the death of two who according to Rev were affecting the whole earth (also word 1093 I might add).
Yes most end times events are centered around the ME, most of the events of the entire Bible are centered in that area because that is where God chose to have His people dwell both in the Garden and in the Promised Land (which by the way is why I also don't think that the US if the Babylon spoken of in the end times because most of the events take place there due to the AC's head quarters being there). I have no doubt that had God chosen to put the Garden someplace else etc we'd be talking about things being concentrated somewhere else.
However, there are those who say end times events are only about the ME (such as the reign of the AC which although I don't remember specifically which number it was, it definitely refers to the whole of the inhabited land) and those people are wrong. the language usage per strong's doesn't support that view. One could say it does if one forgets to take into account the fact that while the writers of the Bible did not know of other inhabited lands and had a more ME focus doesn't mean that the One who inspired the scripture didn't know about them and have a broader intent and focus. which is why to say someone makes an "excellent case for the bible being Middle Eastern-centric and that references to the world in the bible are references to the Middle Eastern world" could be over interpreted to mean only the ME world.
Interestingly enough the secondary meaning of the word 776 denotes specific geography such as country. I would submit that the secondary usage of the word is the intent when referring to Nebuchadnezzar as ruler over the whole earth since he obviously didn't rule over the entire earth.
Harold
While I agree that Nebuchadnezzar thoughts were of what would happen to his kingdom , I doubt God had entirely the same viewpoint in mind. He was interested in the immediate and God in the far off and very future-the end times. So I don't think you can exclude the Roman empire based on that.
Grany
I don't doubt that if one considers morale as the primary endpoint FDR did wonders for the country but seriously most reputable scholars have been saying for some time that the reason the depression lasted for so long in the US was all the government intervention. I'm sure it did a great deal of good for folks to get out and work and not take charity as such for their morale's sake but in the broader picture it was not the best thing in the world for the country as a whole
Just checking in briefly and have not had a chance to read all the posts but just wondered if anyone has seen the monument park in honor of FDR in Washington, DC.
It is really quite a moving and beautiful tribute!
I think there are all different scholarly opinions on FDR and on all sorts of topics for that matter.
Have a great weekend...and please remember my father and family in your prayers. Thanks!
Hi all,
Sorry to jump in and out, but just read this article about the developing conflict between Russia and Georgia....note the last line of the article, " as the military crisis intensifies in South Ossetia, Moscow may be expected to punish Israel for its intervention."
Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358
Blessings,
Jen
There has been a huge increase in the number of earthquakes in the last 2 days! There are currently 397 earthquakes recorded on the USGS site in the last 7 days. I have never seen it this high. It is very rare for it to be over 300. Lately, it has been hovering around 180 to 220ish. Most of the quakes are small ones off of the Alaska cost, but it sure is a high number.
Joel has a new post up.
our monsoon rains have been particularly abundant this year. we've had violent thunderstorms with torrential downpours nearly every night this week. It has happened before but it has been a few years.
sorry about that my computer said it was frozen apparently not
am reading Dr Corsi's book on the Obama Nation. One of the first things he notes is that BHO isn't truly of african descent. His family is apparently of arab descent-interesting tidbit. the book has been a little dry thus far.
American spectator interviewed someone who also wrote a negative book on BHO which sounds worth reading. you can read the interview here
Jib,
The Purim connection is intriguing in its self as a tie into Revelation but the real deal is the calulation of days w/Daniel's 70th week.
When you figure the math into the equation it gives the theory credibility.
If we were to have a very sinister person die "right now" the whole world hated-who do you think would celebrate by giving gifts to one another? We know the Muslims would but it's just not ingrained in our minds & culture to do that.
We would probably buy some champagne or mix up some special drinks for the occasion."Party till it's 1999"
(I'm also thinking in terms of a "world wide" celebration)
OK here we go again. I just grabbed my "The Feasts of the Lord" book. And where did I put the back jacket flap to mark where I have not read? "Purim,the Feast of Lots."
(Purim is following me around as much as those "Aliens" are!)
"Purim is the Hebrew word for "lots" in remembrance of the pur("lot") cast by the wicked Haman to determine the month & day on which the Jewish people were to be killed throughout the mighty Persian Empire. Ironically,the lots (landed on Adar 13) that were thrown for Israel's destruction actually set the date for the new national celebration."(Ester 9:20 & 21 Celebrate Adar 14 & 15th.)
Known as "the Feast of Esther" and in antiquity as "Mordecai's Day"(2 Macc.15:36), Purim commemorates the deliverence of God's people at the hands of Esther & Mordaecai.
It goes onto say the tradition of Purim has "Persian" roots. (Makes sense doesn't it? Muslim gift giving culture)In 538 BC the Persian Jewry chose to remain in Persia rather than return to their homeland under the leadership of Zerubbabel.....To avoid Persian anti-Semitism,they masked their Jewishness from the public eye.(Will they do this in the building of the new Temple? It's a site for all religions to use? Could the "Universal" religous system also adopt this Purim gift giving custom?)
"Esther's given Persian name was derived from the pagan goddess,Ishtar,and Mordecai's from the Babylonian god, Marduk,very similar to the name changes of Daniel & his 3 Hebrew companions living in the Babylonian court.(Dan 1:7)..."
"Purim is a time of "sending presents to one another & gifts to the poor."(Est 9:22) The practice of sending portions of food delicacies to friends is a widespread Purim tradition. This outward expression of joy usually involves the sending of a plate full of cake, pasteries,fruit, & nuts by the hand of a child to friends & relatives..."
"As part of the Purim joy, the holiday is often celebrated w/masquerades,costumes, & canrivals.(Mentions the Drinking part too) Traditionally, masquerading was banned under Jewish law because it often involved wearing clothes of the opposite sex.(Deut 22:5 "A women shall not wear anything that pertains to a man,nor shall a man put on woman's garment,for all do are an abomination to the Lord your God.")Because of Purim's great joy, masquerading was permitted by the rabbis & is a universal Pruim custom today. In Israel, the most well-known Purim event is the Adloyada parade & carnival with is held in Tel Aviv each year
"Yet, in the final analysis,Purim is far more than just the defeat of God's enemies; it is the deliverance of God's people."
"......Israel has no power to bring about her own deliverence. But it is exactly that humanistic,proud thinking that she can deliver herself that will prompt Israel to take her deliverence into her own hands & make the fatal covenant with the Antichrist."
I never knew this. Look @ the The Kids Costume Parade If you didn't know it Jewish & Purim I would have mistaken it for our custom of Haloween! It looks exactly the same! The kids dress as devils,monsters,& everything we do.
Take a look. From what I can tell it already has an International Flair to it.
Hum.
International Flair
Correction:("Party like it's 1999!)
They celebrate it in various countries. I have not noticed it in America-is it because Haloween is so prevalent?
The USGS count for earthquakes over the last 7 days (2.5 magnitude or better in North America, or 4.0 magnitude or better in the rest of the world) has just passed 400. I have been watching this thing for years and I have never seen it get anywhere close to 400 before.
Mr.Hyde I didn't know you were an International Sensation!
Then I never knew I was missing out on the Borat Dance Is this something we should all learn? (I'm not going to post what else I saw but there is also a perverted version of it w/a guy some type of g-string overalls.Satan gets to everything doesn't he?)
Gentlemenyou will be having a test so get ready.The Girl's Version in not quite as entertaining.
Ok-I need a break! Coo-Coo
Lisa, you need more than a coke break! I am sending a special team to rid your house of Aliens and any influences you might have picked up from the wild dancing Borat.
But I have to jump into this Purim discussion just a little bit. The main point to remember is the simple fact that Purim was not a feast or celebration that God instituted for the Apples of his eye.
I watched and listened to the video last night of Steve Hadley and it was very interesting. I ended up watching it twice because the first time Hubby kept interrupting so I put him to bed, made sure he was asleep and then donning my new Bose head set, I really listened to what Pastor Hadley had to say. Took a zillion notes and plan on doing some real checking this weekend.
JIM C. That story you shared about the Girl in the Window is really stirring my soul today. Thank you for sharing.
ATTY: Don't you dare think you are going to be left alone for another year. We are coming to get you if you try that again. Besides, we all get Grumpy just living in this lopsided world and it is alright. I wonder if Jesus was just a little Grumpy when he drove the money changers out of the temple. I can't see him saying, "Cheez, we gotta bring Change that we can believe in" and smiling broadly to the crowd, takes a limp noodle and cracks it over the changers heads. NO! I see real emotion in that episode and that isn't all folks! Wait until the earth starts shaking when the armies of Gog/Magog go to far into Israel.
Well, there is much to digest today and I didn't get started out right because I couldn't yell out "God's Good morning from Okieland" and I feel like I have failed you all somehow.
DONNA and LISA: Just sharing about the events taking place and putting a Biblical perspective on them gets the attention of the people who are searching for answers. JIb is right about trying to mold the events taking place in our arena of influence into bible prophecy being fulfilled. Just keeping the word in front of people's eyes will accomplish more to bring them into a closer relationship than anything. Acknowledging that God is doing something BIG TIME is a real door opener for me to share his love for all of us.
Can you imagine what the reaction would be if someone was really fearful of say, increases in earthquake frequency (Like Harold mentioned) and you knew from their conversation that there wasn't any kind of personal relationship with God in their life. But if you said "Well, I don't know if God really wants you saved or not" you would probably get whacked a good one. But if you said, "God's scriptures tell us that as the time grows closer for the taking away of the church, things will get worse" then they want to know more about it. You have to use discretion and wisdom that only comes from God when you are dealing with the unsaved and in lots of cases, even with the Christians.
Knowing when to share and what to share is 99% of the story. Starting out gentle and loving their souls as you would want someone to love yours is most of the battle beginning. Sometimes you have to just smile and say, God's timing is everything.
Now, I have to get to work and fix lunch for hubby. Oh, by the way, has anyone here been quickened that this new conflict with Russia and Georgia is really going somewhere fast?
Love you all,
Grany
Videos from Foxregarding this Russia/Iraq/Israel/Iran ME situation.There are 4 listed.
I'm thinking back. Its 8/8/08. Remember I posted something that this date was significant & something prophetically was going to happen. Was it Perry Stone? I forgot where I got the info from.
The Chinese picked this Olympic date & time 8:08 for their own superstitious reasons but what I posted has something prophetically/Biblically to do with this this 888 stuff.
I remember thinking to myself-"I wonder if something will really happen?" And now something has. Meanwhile I forgot about the whole thing until now of course.
I'm used to military aircraft coming from San Diego they roared overhead quite oven. (Especially the years following 911) Where I live here in TN-it's only been the last week where we have seen military airplanes & helicopters. They have been so loud & low I've come out of my house to see what's going on.
Whatever is happening w/Russia and this war now may be or end up becoming very significant.
Grany,
great post btw. you're ahead of me. fully intended to finish watching last night but the nightly thunderstorms and torrential rain over the house or near enough the house is getting old. We protect our equipment by shutting everything down even the power strip. I had to save the laptop batteries in case I got a call from the hospital since we have electronic records.
anyhoo-thank you for pointing out that Purim is not a feast instituted by God for Israel. that was my thought process this morning after reading Lisa's post but you beat me to it. what they should be celebrating is that God stood by them even in their disobedience-I don't think when God commanded the Jews to repossess the land after the captivity staying behind was a God given option. While I don't know that for certain, I could surmise that if they had been in the land and not Persia there would have been no need for a Jewess to marry a heathen to deliver her people. Perhaps we look at Esther wrong-perhaps instead of just being a story of deliverance it is a story of deliverance in spite of disobedience. Further when one looks at how it is celebrated-with things God clearly has said are wrong but the rabbis say are ok for this occassion-one has to wonder what God might actually think of such a holiday. We've had this discussion in relation to both Halloween and Christmas if I recall as well.
As far as purim being celebrated internationally-I do know Jews in my area celebrate this holiday. In fact, one of our docs named her daughter Esther since she was born during Purim. She'd have done better to name her Hadassah I think.
my point in saying why celebrate a minor feast by the whole world was to point out that the celebrating isn't just Jews who are celebrating, and in point of fact there may be very few Jews who do celebrate the death of the witness (keep in mind they are looking for a prophet to proceed Messiah and many of the Jews in Jerusalem at that time may well be religious Jews in which case I think appalled might be a better word)-it is the whole inhabited earth that is doing so which I think would be mostly non Jews. Non Jews have no reason to celebrated a minor Jewish holiday, of course then there is the philosophy of any excuse to get drunk.
well the news is certainly enough to give one the screaming heebee jeebies at times.
yes the events of this AM do kind of make the hair on the back of my neck stand on end just a bit. It will be interesting to see the aftermath with world reaction and how Putin comes out of this.
the Russian bear is showing it's fangs for sure, claws too for that matter. Georgia is on their southern border right? one small step away from the ME?
SEPTEMBER IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER EVERYONE! GOING HOME TIME?
By the way, I found this link out of the clear blue sky and you all just have to check it out.
http://bibleocean.com/OmniDefinition/Discovery_channel.
Please take a minute to see what I am talking about. I just spent close to $300 dollars on a wonderful bible study program from the makers of the Thompson Chain Bible and this link beats what I got and it is all free.
There are 3 different ways you can utilize it: Download it onto your computer, send for the CD which you can then install onto your computer, or the choice I made is access the web site and no downloading or hard drive usage is needed.
Let me know what you think of it.
Grany
Had you all heard the whole story behind Christopher Laurie's death. You can read about it here...
Christopher Laurie's Death
It is a tragedy, but apparently one that could have been avoided.
Vicki
Harold, I just checked the earthquake site you mentioned...something I frequently do...and I have never seen so many earthquakes in the US! It's usually around 700-800. Now up to 1300!
The only good thing is that I've heard that the greater number of earthquakes, the better.
In other words, little quakes help release pressure and prevent the big ones.
Still, an astounding number this last week!
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it or not, but tomorrow is the 9th of Av. With all the prophetic things going on right now, tomorrow could be interesting.
FYI-This Sunday, August 10th is Tisha B'Av(meaning 9th of Av)-The somber Fast of the 5th Month. It has come to be regarded as a symbol of all the tragedies of the Jewish people.
It's held on the 10th when the 9th is on a Sabbath.
Zech 7:3 "Should I weep in the fifth month and fast as I have done for so many years?"
Solomon's Temple destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC on this day.
2nd Temple destroyed by the Romans w/fire in AD 70 on this day.
AD 1290 All Jews were expelled from England on this day.
AD 1492 Catholic King Ferinand & Queen Isabella from Spain launched the Inquisition on this day.
This may become my own personal Tisha B' Av. My TN pastor sent out an email stating this Sunday he is going to announce some "big changes" going to take place.
(I hope it's not to cut off the Calvary Chapel ties & announce Saddleback Church support.)
Someone please remind me of the importance of the 9th of Av!
BTW, Harold, thanks for the link to Steve Hadley's site. I, like several others here, have to go back and watch the Purim talk again, this time taking notes.
I hope we can keep up the discussion on this. I badly need the loving back and forth on eschatology because I need to better understand the different viewpoints myself.
I must say, the Purim talk sobered me (if I can get any more sobered!). And the Russia/Georgia thing...well, I've been spending a lot more time on my knees the last few days. If Kathy's right and it's prewrath, we are in for some tough times. If pretrib is right, who of my loved ones will be left behind. Don't get me wrong, I look forward with great joy the rapture. But, that joy is tempered right now with the sadness of knowing so many will be left and even then might still reject God.
Oh, thanks Lisa! I was typing while you were posting.
Harold, what I've noticed about the earthquakes (I've been watching for 17 mos) is that they are increasing in frequency and moving eastward across the US, like a wave. Have you noticed this?
I heard someone say it's time to buy earthquake insurance even if you're not in a prone area. And it's super cheap if you're not in a prone area.
that might depend on whether there are known fault lines where you live. my house apparently sits on or very near a very large fault line-wish I'd known that before. as well. even though it is not seismically active in so far as we know I would have to wonder whether we could get such insurance
I almost forgot-one more interesting tidbit re: Purim.
Check THIS out:
"The truth unknowingly proclaimed each Purim season as the Purim chorus is sung:
Utzu etzah,vetufar;dabru davar,velo yakum;ki immanuel.
"It is actually the Hebrew text of the Lord's future warning to the Antichrist & his allied nations:"Take counsel together, but it will come to nothing;Speak the word, but it will not stand,For God is with us."(Isa 8:10)
Immanuel=God is with us-the other name for Jesus the Messiah of Israel.
Yesterday: EU's Solana urges Georgian president to resume talks with rebels
Russia bombs Georgia- Russian Troops Enter Rebel Enclave
1,400 people have died as a result of "Georgian aggression" against South Ossetia US and EU call for immediate cease-fire
Russian ship found off Okinawa, possibly monitoring U.S. radio waves
2 US aircraft carriers headed for Gulf
Georgia to impose martial law, port bombed: official
EU introduces new trade sanctions against Iran
We'll neutralize S-300 if sold to Iran
Israel irked over Iranian leader's planned visit to Turkey
Seculars Want Temple', as Fast of Av Begins Saturday Night "...the Temple must be rebuilt, and so I think it should be done... As a first step, we must show that we control the Temple Mount... I call upon all of Israel to come to the Mount on [Tisha B'Av] and show that it belongs to the Jewish nation"
Study: military strike on Iran's nuclear facilities could boost Tehran's resolve to acquire nuclear weapons
Analysis: Subtly and determinedly, Syria is taking over Lebanon
2 campaigns seek 'truth' about Obama's birth
Modern-day loaves-and-fishes miracle reported: 3,500 box lunches feed 5,000 ... with leftovers
Hi Anne,
In a conversation I had recently with my email friend, Kristen Wisen, daughter of Robert VanKampen who has written several books on prewrath, she told me something very interesting. She has traveled a lot, and so did her father before the Lord called him home. These were her words to me, "I can’t tell you how many foreign believers do not even bat an eye at prewrath – they understand persecution and expect it – Americans feel we are too privileged to be purified!"
I asked her what she meant by "purified" and this was her reply.
"As for purified – it is primarily an American mindset that the church will not be persecuted or go through any type of “purification” in the end times. If you go to Romania or China, even India, the church understands persecution and expects to go through even harder times before Christ returns. Prewrath is not surprising to them – they see it in scripture easily and I think it is because they understand persecution and don’t feel that knowing God exempts them from suffering. I use the word “purification” because it is commonly thought that the struggle/tribulation of the final days is a purification of Israel – but I think it is of the church also. The call to pick sides – the warning not to take the mark – it is all a separating time. Persecution always purifies – it separates the true metal from the dirt. It breaks down in order to cleanse. But the American church, who has not endured or even sampled true persecution, cannot fathom suffering in the way much of the church throughout the world does because we are free – free to believe what we want and no one can take that freedom away. After all, God loves us too much to have us suffer, so He’ll take us out of the world before it gets too bad. It’s a horrible mindset and it insults persecuted believers throughout the world."
I haven't responded to this email yet but I do think she is spot on. She is not talking about purification in the sense that we need cleansing from our sins. That is a done deal. But the church is full of look-a-likes, Matthew calls them tares in chapter 13. Of course you know I view Mt. 24 as a rapture passage. When Christ returns, cutting short the great tribulation against His elect, by that time the tares will be gone from the church and only true believers will remain and be willing to name the name of Christ, even to the point of death. Christ will return to a purified church, the gold will shine forth because all the dross will have been removed.
It sure makes sense to me.
Did anyone get to watch Joel's Epicenter on TBN tonight?
I had only read the book, so it was good to see it... finally.
Nate, it's kind of surreal in a way. It seems there are a few of us watching, waiting, hoping and praying and the rest are just running around like a disturbed ants' nest.
interesting articles from Lori and Nate tonight.
pure speculation here
Joel's post mentions that there are rising tensions between the President and PM and that most Russians consider Putin to be more powerful than the President.
could Putin use this as an opportunity to take over the gov't & declare martial law?
Overcomer,
I see your point.
I think of it a little differently perhaps.
If you’re not an OSAS type of believer then the standards for what may be considered "purified" are higher. In that believers who are serious about their faith & abide in Christ verses those who pay lip service but live in the world, or follow their own idea of who God is because they don't like the God of the Bible. It cramps their style.
Remember the Camel & the eye of the needle? If your friend doesn't think there is mental persecution but rather true Christians are comfortable and happy with life in America then she's out of touch with reality. At least in my reality its bitter sweet & I can't wait to be w/other saints and out of here. (and not just for the sake of escaping persecution but just to finally be home.)
We don't have the physical persecution portion happening now but we do endure the deception of: material wealth, false teaching, worldly attitudes, subliminal TV/Media messages, Educational indoctrination, and the list goes on.
If that can't weed out true sincere Christians from the rest in America then I don't know of a better method-the extreme being physical torture & death.
In America its sneaker & more deceptive. Not black & white as in
Physically Live or Die.
It's Spiritually Live or Die but most don't even know they are spiritually dead.
So to say we really have it better here and need persecution in order to "purify" us I can't agree with.
I think we have it worse.
Let's trade places and see how many of these persecuted Christians remain in Christ & are not distracted & become spiritually dead here in America.
(Remember-I come from the stand point of believing salvation can be lost.It makes a difference in the way this concept is viewed.)
*I do have great compassion for the needy & persecuted-so don't misunderstand me there.
So for the majority of so called American Christians-the rapture may just be as you consider-"wishfull thinking."
Galations 3:3
Are ye so foolish having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?
New post is up!
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