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152 comments:
News Flash: Lori's #1! HA!
(no, I'm not happy or anything...)
Thank you for the new post, Mac, I love it!
Also, for the record, mac posted a couple of links about google apparently closing down anti-obama blogs! I'm shocked!
You sure are on top of things jib and mac!
Well....apparently they were shut down or temporarily shut down as google thought spam was involved...
so it does not sound like it was a freedom of speech thing.
I sure wish folks would shut down all of the online porn!
Amen to that, Donna!
I do have to say that Google "muted" an email that I sent out last week regarding exposing you know who's birth certificate.
I was certainly disappointed.
It's even kind of strange that they took names off the maps on G/earth. They may have justified it by declaring they don't want to aid war/conflict. As if the nations do not have any other maps/satillites....
There is nothing vulgar or obscene in my emails, short of mentioning O's name once or twice a month.
BTY: I changed the subject line in that email, and changed a few names in the captions and resent it, received by all...
Morning, all!
Lori and Donna, in regards to
G--gle, I found an interesting tidbit about G--gle Maps this morning. I visit a website called "photoshop disasters" to see all the funny goofs that they find from print ads, etc. that are made using Photoshop (Kathy, you'd find this funny as a photographer.) Disclaimer: It's a secular site, so some of the material can be racy, but a lot of it is hilarious, like body parts sticking in the wrong direction, etc. Anyway, an example from G--gleMaps was given on Aug 12th that showed a zoomed-in map of Holland where a large section of land had been obviously 'cloned' in. In Photoshop terms, that means some flaw or unwanted object was being covered or replaced by copying a section of the photo and then pasting it on top of the unwanted section. Example...I might "clone" smooth skin on top of a patch of blemished skin to make a face look more appealing. They do this all the time in print ads to make models look perfect, etc. Anyway, a large section of trees is obviously cloned in the picture, leading people to wonder what G--gle was hiding. Why would you cover up a big section of land (poorly done, I might add!) other than to hide something or lead viewers astray? The fact that it's Holland has me stumped, too. But maybe there's a certain infrastructure being built or put into place that G--gle has agreed to hide? Then again, maybe
G--gle did a poor cloning job on purpose, knowing it would be found and allowing what they promised to hide to actually be found. Lisa & Jim....there's a new lead for you!
That, along with the blogs being shut down and the map names being removed has me realizing that there's alot more stuff going on out there than we're even remotely aware of.
Blessings,
Jen
Your message was "muted"? What exactly does that mean? It did not go thru?
I've been reading that Illuminati Architecture book & the bottom line of it is they are seriously into "Architecture" in and of its self. Consider them to be the Satanic Architects on earth.
They are driven to build monuments & incorporate symbols which please their deities but are not obvious to the general populace. They feel in doing so they will assist in ushering in the spirit world & material world into one entity. Their motto is something like: "As above, also below". One hand points up & the other points down. Two headed creatures are also popular. Two heads w/one body.
These buildings & monuments (like that pyramid in Russia we just saw)
are designed to invoke the spirit realm. The proportions create some type of "energy force" that the "other world" has a greater degree of access to the "material world."
That is why many monuments are created in the Greek (gods) Classical Style, Roman style,
Gothic style, Egyptian, etc...
Article on why the Dome of the Rock will be removed prior to the Anti-Christ
So this link does make some sense that they would also be occupied w/the Temple Mount.
Some of these Architects (not all) that build these Illuminati monuments have been 33degree masons. They also derive some of their ideas/plans from "higher sources."
When I knew nothing about Masons-other than a brief stint with the "Rainbow Girls" in which I was the "gate keeper" the feeling was that they are some way tied into the Bible & do good deeds & service the community.
My husband's Father & Mother were involved in it. (Maybe that is why they never embraced Christianity?)
Today we are taking an out of town Jewish Attorney guest (Can't wait to feel him out! Don't think he's really a practicing Jew-but don't know.Poor guy doesn't know what he's in for meeting me.) to the Nashville Parthenon. They have a gigantic statue of ATHENA.
The author of the book I'm reading interviewed the guy who designed @ built the statute.Here is the view I see from the street all the time but this is my 1st visit There is a slide show of more pictures if your interested.
BTW,
In case anyone checks out that site and reads the comments, I did, too, and can see where some of the stuff being cloned is due to cloud cover or missing pixels, etc. as some of the comments suggest.
However, if G--gle is willing to fix legitimate problems, what else could they start 'fixing'?
Blessings,
Jen
BTW so far they are allowing comments at joels new blog site.
MAC/MCHYDE:
I got interested in your article about the Osamabama thingy and did a Google search for the author of the web site that your article mentioned. You would be very interested in reading it I am sure. Here is the link that I have copied and pasted, copy and pasted, copy and pasted, ..............
http://laotze.blogspot.com/search/label/Barack%20Obama
Now people this author is presenting a picture of the Golden Calf that I have not seen before and believe me, I have worn my eyes out seeing! Me thinks the Golden Calf is nothing more than a trojan horse slickly covered with gold foil to deceive the elect! @;o)
How's that for a play on words Jim?
By the way, it is Good God's Morning from Okieland!
Now folks just for the record, I state this for the Benefit of the Google Nazi Camp -- censorship is an offense punishable by law in the USA.
By the way, I am in the process of removing my blog from Google Blogger and have already started the WordPress production. Not complete but it will be soon.
Grany
Someone on Joel's new website posted their end time Christain "Video" blog. It's good.
Prophecy Tube.com
I forward this one to "the Russian Beauty" as well.
Aha-Jen your I see your coming to the "other side" of Lisa,Jim, & Harold.
I wonder if the "concentration camps" in the US are "cloned in."
Alesia-were you not reading about cloning when the 3 locusts showed up?I'm sure it was in re: to physical body type cloning but now we have another "type" to consider.
"there's alot more stuff going on out there than we're even remotely aware of."
Yeah! The material workings behind the spiritual warfare.(That are hidden from obvious view.We are not suppose to think for ourselves but act as cloned "sheeple.")
congrats Lori :-)
actually on Joel's site the comments were "on" for the first post but the most recent post they are off.
Donna,
the anti BHO sites that were shut down were FALSELY and DELIBERATELY labeled spam by pro BHO folks to get them shut down. Google has a policy of shut down, look for proof later that the accusation is true.
Grany
Google could care less about censorship-if they did as was otherwise posted they'd shut down the porn! something to think about though to move over to where Joel's new spot is. their policy is to investigate FIRST then shut down if warranted.
Some churches have very long statements regarding what they believe. I ran across the following statement of beliefs today. Does it capture the essentials? Just wondering what others here at the cave think about this.
God is bigger and better and closer than we can imagine.
The Bible is God’s perfect guidebook for living.
Jesus is God showing himself to us.
Through His Holy Spirit, God lives in and through us now.
Nothing in creation “just happened.” God made it all.
Grace is the only way to have a relationship with God.
Faith is the only way to grow in our relationship with God.
God has allowed evil to provide us with a choice, God can bring good even out of evil events and God promises victory over evil to those who choose him.
Heaven and hell are real places. Death is a beginning, not the end.
The church is to serve people like Jesus served people..
Jesus is coming again.
The same fellowship has this as well...
Today I am stepping across the line. I’m tired of waffling and I’m finished with wavering, I’ve made my choice, the verdict is in, and my decision is irrevocable. I’m going God’s way. There’s no turning back now!
I will live the rest of my life serving God’s purposes with God’s people on God’s planet for God’s glory. I will use my life to celebrate his presence, cultivate his character, participate in his family, demonstrate his love, and communicate his word.
Since my past has been forgiven, and I have a purpose for living, and a home awaiting in heaven, I refuse to waste any more time or energy on shallow living, petty thinking, trivial talking, thoughtless doing, useless regretting, hurtful resenting, or faithless worrying. Instead I will magnify God, grow to maturity, serve in ministry, and fulfill my mission in the membership of his family.
Because this life is preparation for the next, I will value worship over wealth, “we” over “me”, character over comfort, service over status, and people over possessions, position, and pleasures. I know what matters most and I’ll give it all I’ve got. I’ll do the best I can with what I have for Jesus Christ today.
I won’t be captivated by culture, manipulated by critics, motivated by praise, frustrated by problems, debilitated by temptation, or intimidated by the devil. I’ll keep running my race with my eyes on the goal, not the sidelines or those running by me. When times get tough, and I get tired, I won’t back up, back off, back down, back out or backslide. I’ll just keep moving forward by God’s grace. I’m Spirit-led, purpose-driven and mission-focused so I cannot be bought, I will not be compromised, and I shall not quit until I finish the race.
I’m a trophy of God’s amazing grace so I will be gracious to everyone, grateful for everyday, and generous with everything that God entrusts to me.
To my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I say: However, Whenever, Wherever, and Whatever you ask me to do, my answer in advance is yes! Wherever you lead and whatever the cost, I’m ready. Anytime. Anywhere. Anyway. Whatever it takes Lord; Whatever it takes! I want to be used by you in such a way, that on that final day I’ll hear you say, “Well done, thou good and faithful one. Come on in, and let the eternal party begin!”
Another sad sign of our times. Random House has succumbed to the Islamic Threat, much like Spain caved after Muslim terrorists attacked that country
I think the statements are certainly admirable but not exactly what I want it a doctrinal statement as it is rather inclusive or everyone and while the right names and labels are there I get the sense and could see where people could interpret to mean what they want it to mean.
Further, it is important when looking at a doctrinal statement of a church (especially if you aren't sure where they stand or to see how important these statements of faith really are) to ask yourself-why is this statement important ie what is this impact of this statement being held as true on other doctrine and what happens if we decided this is not important and what impact does it have on other doctrine. a lot of the doctrine or statements of faith one sees in such articles actually and ultimately impact how one views salvation and surety. for example if I believe the Bible to be the infallible and inspired word of God, then I rest knowing that everything God has said either did come to pass or will come to pass and that there are absolutes. Now if we think only certain parts are true-which parts do we pick, what happens if we pick different things as true which does to an extent open the door to moral relativism.
as another example Christ HAD to be born of a virgin or we would have NO salvation at all. The doctrine of virgin birth is that important which is why one can't say-oh it really just meant a "young girl of marriageable age". We know Messiah had to be of the line of David, that His reign would be eternal but God put a curse on the last king prior to the captivity that no descendant of his would ever reign on the throne. Really that is quite a pickle. We also know in retrospect, as it wasn't quite clear at the time the prophecies were written, that Messiah also had to be both God and man. If you look at the genealogies in Matthew and Luke one has to consider to whom the books were written and the goal of the books. Matthew was writing to Jews and presenting Jesus as Messiah. He gives us lineage through Joseph Christ's adopted father. It is through Joseph that Christ has the LEGAL right to rule. by acknowledging Christ and raising him as his own son, Joseph was conferring on Christ the legal right to rule on David's throne. so we bypass the whole curse thing. Luke on the other hand is writing to gentiles and presenting Christ differently (yes and it's slipped my mind as to what perhaps I'll remember later today). So he proves that Christ is of the line of David via his mother Mary's lineage thus giving Christ the BIRTH RIGHT to rule. If Mary had not been a virgin in the truest sense of the word-one could claim that the child really was Joseph's and completely human making Him ineligible to die for our sins, it would leave an opening for sowing of doubts by Satan. Because Mary was a virgin and God created life with in her using her dna, Christ was fully human, fully God, of the lineage of David and by adoption with the legal right to rule on the throne of David.
so while I like the statements they are no substitute for more explicit doctrine shall we say because doctrine is more important than many want to realize and ultimately can affect faith. In their effort to include everyone, be seen as "less dogmatic" and more relevant, more loving etc I think they are committing error which will not serve their congregation well. If you don't know why you believe what you believe with good solid doctrine and arguments for those beliefs you can easily be lead astray.
Both rather sound touchy feely to me, almost emergent church like.
it also seems to have elements of the restoration movement, not to be confused with restoration theology, in it.
it took me some time to track down what I had read but here is the wiki version
Restoration movement.
going along with what I wrote earlier about doctrine is a quote I have pulled from the Ozark Christian College website from their statement of faith
"Every director [trustee], officer, and teacher of OZARK CHRISTIAN COLLEGE shall be an undenominational Christian, and must believe in the full and final inspiration of the Bible to the extent that it is to him or her the infallible Word of God, and therefore the all-sufficient rule of faith and life..."
if you go to the college website their core values sound very much like what you posted GT.
actually there is much to like about the above noted college but they appear to me at least to be just a little wishy washy on one of the very important fundamentals of the faith. one of their goals is to train folks in sound doctrine which is rather interesting in view of the first part of their mission statment.
I would note that there for a while on the community churches in our area actually had posted on their website that they didn't believe it was appropriate for the corporate body of Christians ie the church to take a stand on things like abortion or homosexuality either.
They are church of Christ if one wants to label them with a label.
Willow Church-their megachurch flagship is HEAVILY involved in the emergent church, contemplative movement.
I have a question.
I'm reading Joel Richardson's book Antichrist, Islam's Awaited Messiah, very interesting and informative. However, he says something that confuses me, that Gog is Ezekiel's name for the Antichrist. What? Did I miss something glaringly important here? I didn't think Gog was the Antichrist! I tried to find the answer by looking through all the prophecy related websites I have in my favorites, but I don't have all year.
Would someone tell me briefly or point me to a good site?
Also, has anyone else read this book? Or any opinions about Joel Richardson in general?
I think we should be praying for tonight's McCain/Obama forum at Saddleback. I sense it might be significant for many voters.
And while you are at it, please say a prayer for my husband, the Obama supporter. True confessions here, he is a friend of Rick Warren and will be in the audience, by Rick's personal invitation. "All" I can do is pray, my words accomplish nothing.
Anne
there are some who don't think that Magog and Gog have anything to do with Russia. Nor do they see 2 different wars spelled out in scripture only one. so if you accept the premise that there is only one war of Gog and Magog and not 2 different wars then yes you would believe that Gog and the AC are one and the same.
will be praying for you and hubby and for the conference however I personally think that Warren is doing this to give some sort of seal of approval to BHO but that's my opinion. God help us all if I'm right.
Thanks, Jib, re the Gog thing, that helps.
And thanks for the prayers. While I don't think Rick is disingenuous, I would not be surprised if he is hoping for an Obama win.
Anne, great suggestion! I will keep the event in my prayers! And your family and everyone else's family and loved ones, too!
<><
Anne,
And I thought I had it bad w/my hubby @ times-& a friend of Rick Warren to boot. (Remember my Church has supported Warren too)
I had read Joel R's book quite awhile ago but that is one part of the book I didn't agree with. I think he argued that Russia was not Rosh & as you say Gog was the Anti-Christ.
If my instinct is correct I think he's up to speed on what is happening currently with Islam and this seems to be his specialty. To the degree which it will affect the Tribulation period I just don't see that it is going to go as far as he takes it. Just because you have "beheading" in Revelation does not mean it necessarily has to be Islamic.
Does the same "spirit" operate in Islam & the Anti-Christ? I think so. The Mexicans are beheading people now & they are generally not Islamic but have Catholic backgrounds. So the same "spirit" can operate w/anyone who is willing.
Joel R is also Pre-Wrath or something to that effect. They are looking at all of this expecting to be overrun & overtaken by Islam dominating the world.
I don't know if he's changed his mind about Gog/Magog & Russia. He definitely knows of Joel Rosenburg & with all the events lining up its difficult not to at least consider it.
Now he's teamed up with Walid Shoebat so it's even more about resisting & exposing Islam.
When Ezekiel 38/39 occurs I'm not so sure Islam will be such a grand threat. The Anti-Christ with his new plan may substitute all of that theory. Islam could re-group and cause trouble but to the scale he is speaking of I think it's doubtful. (I could be wrong!)
The new book "God's war on Terror" Walid wrote and Joel promotes. He also has conference DVD called "The Islam & The End Times Conference." (I have not read or seen these)
I do understand how they believe it will play such a big role because I have studied Islam and their end time beliefs. It almost mirrors Biblical prophecy but w/a Muslim spin to it. (Since Satan copied the Bible-big surprise!)
So if you believe what the Quran says will happen to a large extent w/the truth being the Biblical prophesy aspect of the same described events-then it makes sense to go that route. Especially if you don't believe the war of Gog/Magog will wipe out most of the Islamic power or it's the same war of Armageddon.
Harold would you ask ATTY for us what he thinks now? Since he spends time over @ the Trumpet he's probably more up to speed on Joel & his end time beliefs.
Speaking of that very thing here is a recent quote from Joel's Trumpet:
And by Caucasian, it is referring to those who live in the Caucasus Mountain region. While I have argued repeatedly that I do not believe that the Scriptural evidence warrants any primary Russian involvement in the coming Gog / Magog Battle, this is certainly interesting nonetheless. Any Alliances and or Unions in this region are to be monitored closely.
Grany, note that Yahoo and Wordpress have similar policies to Google. I found one article that stated this. Ultimately, certain nefarious types can do damage to any blog by hitting the spam button, just because they can.
As for that Google Map from Holland that was edited? I think I can tell you just what the trees are hiding.
A nudist camp.
Seriously, I don't think it's a "black helicopter" site. The affected area is only 35 meters by 100 meters -- about the size of a soccer field. It's on the edge of a golf course. I can see several areas that have been "stitched together" -- the colors are totally different and the shadows are wrong. This is to be expected when you're trying to link up photos taken by orbiting cameras -- you're going to have areas right next to each other that were photographed on different days.
<><
MAC, I know it has similar but not immediate shut down, besides I intend to sponsor gambling on my blog. But my whole thing is simply this; Joel C. Rosenberg was shut down way after the cussing started. They were shut down way after all the liberal, and I mean extreme Liberals, took over the site. Joel shut off the comments because of all the trouble but then Google turned around and shut down Joel at least 6 months after all conversations had ceased. I have an inquiry into the right channels trying to determine why they did this without informing Joel. One of the biggest complaints I have is simply, explain the reasons why and allow rebuttal. Simple and not unfair.
But there is a way around the blogger sphere and that is chat! They are now, or at least have been, making group chat available. There are more avenues than we could ever overwhelm so, we are not to worry.
I still like the title of the new blog app; WORD PRESS! Now you have to admit that sounds really Good. The Word gets pressed! Yes!
Grany
Weird how things sometimes work out. I just finished my last comment and noticed I had a reply to one of my messages regarding Joels. This is what I have learned from the inquiry so far.
In June, Blogger was overwhelmed with reported Spam and malware blog sites. The number was so large that they shut them all down until they could investigate the truth of the matter. In just the last few days, most of them were reopened and the few remaining are only closed until the administrator of the blog site requests the site to be reopened. Google has a procedure for doing this and the problem can be resolved by simply filling out required forms.
There was some talk of another type of complaint but the response did not seem to include Joel's site.
Well, he is situated with Word Press and that might work out to his benefit in the long run. I will tell you all this, I was not in the least just a little bit upset. I WAS HOT UNDER THE COLLAR! Especially after reading at the link that Mac gave us on Obama on the previous post.
I gotta quit watching all of those conspiracy web sites. LOL
But I will tell you this and make no mistake I am very serious about it. I take our GOD GIVEN freedoms very seriously and this Country's freedoms are just as precious. I will defend the right of free expression and thought right until my dying breath and I will fight for your rights to the end also.
I will not become obsessed about it but I will become boisterous enough to wake you all up if need be.
Love you,
Grany
Hi Grany,
It's great to have you around to remind and teach us of the importance of free speech and all of that.
The only thing about it that bugs me is when they go too far with it...like allowing porn on the internet and allowing porn in libraries.
I guess libraries are not what they used to be!
I'm impressed that google responded to you. I can't quite imagine that they would have or could have shut people down due to their viewpoints.
I'm still watching Saddleback's Civil Forum on the Presidency (1 hour with BHO and 1 hour with McCain).
Before viewing this, there was no way I was going to vote for BHO. No way. He changed my mind.
I was on the fence about voting for anyone before viewing BHO. Just watching BHO made me want to vote for McCain!
Having watched McCain for the past 50 minutes, I'm sold. I won't abstain from voting. I definitely will vote for McCain.
He did an EXCELLENT job. I can't say I agree with the man 100% and I do believe he was positioning himself to answer in a way that would appeal to the audience in a few places. Nevertheless, I think he gets it. He is much wiser than BHO. I pray that both come to a saving knowledge of the Lord.
Based on what I have heard, McCain is FAR MORE QUALIFIED and CAPABLE to be President and FAR LESS DANGEREOUS than BHO.
Lord, please let your will be done whatever it may be. I know You're in control. Thank you for that.
By the way, C-SPAN will broadcast Rich Warren sermon on politics and faith tomorrow at 9:30am Pacific Time (12:30pm Eastern).
Jim G, I agree, McCain did very well. My daughter watched with me and said she still doesn't know anything about Obama. (BTW, I saw my husband as he was walking through the metal detector!)
It will be interesting to see how or if this changes anyone else's mind.
I just watched the Rick Warren Civil Forum on the Presidency, too.
McCain gets my vote! (living in WA. State, the election could be over before our votes are counted.)
I'm not a Rick Warren fan, either. But I thought he was fair with both candidates.
Just my two cents worth.
Donna, the person I inquired of is an acquaintance of a few years ago and we had computer connections back then of a whole different nature.
But, the person who was responsible for the comments being turned off the first time used filthy language and addressed one of the regular posters in a very derogatory manner. Our Lori (Campsmore) notified the webmaster at Joel's about it and then many others utilized the information that she gave us to chime in also.
But, Blogger stops spamming, porn, cursing and racial/religious/ethnic slandering and sexual slandering as a reason to close the blog until they investigate. The situation of the blog being closed is up to Joel to address it. We cannot get it changed because we are not the administrators. Does seem odd that we can get it closed by reporting it as one of the objectionables that I just mentioned but we can do nothing about unfair reports being submitted.
Oh, well, life goes on and we will survive it all.
Granny
Oops. I wrote:
By the way, C-SPAN will broadcast Rich Warren sermon on politics and faith tomorrow at 9:30am Pacific Time (12:30pm Eastern).
I meant Rick Warren. Like McCain, I don't really care if he is rich or poor. Why don't they point out that we already tax people at gradually higher rates the more net taxable income they have.
By the way, my wife and I are definitely not financially rich, even by BHO's definition. We're way below the cutoff for middle class folks.
Full disclosure though. My heavenly father owns the cattle on a thousand hills and he owns the hills too!
Good to know. I will have to watch it one way or other. Thanks for the info, Jim./
We just watched Phelps swim to win his 8th medal. Yay!
Obama/Mc Cain-BLAH. (Try a night out in this situation.)
I've just returned from my frolic & detour w/the Jewish Attorney. (The guy is very intellectually intelligent-I'm not a road scholar mind you-just Spiritually gifted through the grace of God. But in the end that is far more important.)
He does go to temple Fri/Sat is married to a Catholic who also attends. Does not know anything about Christian or Jewish End Time beliefs. Has read the Quran. Mentioned they had some good teachings in it until I mentioned that they did @ 1st then added in the bad ones as time went on. (I think he was surprised I knew something about it.)
I attempted and I say attempted to get a word in edge wise. I'll have to bring duct tape next time for my husband’s constant chatter. I wanted to give him "the look" but he wouldn't look my way to get it.
(Clueless I say!!!)
But finally after I suggested Champagne at dinner I got my chance to at least chime in since I sat in between them.
I mentioned some Christian End time beliefs/Ezekiel 38/39 and the like. Now he had read a book which I get the feeling "rocked his world" called "the book of Judas."
It's some scroll they found & published not too long ago and I believe has changed his perception.
National Geographic is working on airing a story about it. (Now I questioned the authority of National Geographic since they support "Evolution" and got an eye roll from my hubby.) I also questioned what creditable thing Judas would have to say since he's a liar/and traitor.
1. The point he brought out was that there were originally 14 disciples?
2. Who & why some books were omitted from the Bible.
I just asked him if God would not have the authority to ensure what we have today is what he meant us to have and that He reveals things as He sees fit. He could not disagree.
3. What they meant back then in their language does not necessarily mean what we now interpret it.
(I gave him the example of the division in Christian prophesy in that some take Daniel/Revelation Literally & include the Jewish Nation and the symbolic type think the Church has replaced them)
Something about the "Judas" book brings Christianity/Judaism/& Islam together. Like they are not so distant from each other after all. (Warning goes off-ding dong!)
He mentioned that the Catholics (Jim C. we need you!) the latest Pope in particular was given this Judas book to look at @ he would not comment on it.
He so wants me to read this book & he is going to send it to me as long as I promise to read it-give him my take on it-& return it. My husband told him OK as long as "he" will read the Epicenter book. (Touche')
"US must share power in new world order, says Turkey’s controversial president."
You all did read this article on Joel's Trumpet did you not?
New World Order-like it or not-here it comes. One chip at a time- until the big BANG. (Whatever that is.)
Good night.
The latest video on Joels Trumpet regarding a Muslim Political Unity Conference caught my eye.
I followed the link in the video to the conference site. The conference was TODAY, Aug. 16.
Here's what the site said about the conference:
The destruction of the Islamic Khilafah State over 80 years ago marked the beginning of dividing the Muslim World into countless nation states governed by a plethora of Kings, dictators and Western backed 'democrats'. Today three major regions of the Muslim World are under occupation - Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan. Oil and food crisis has pushed millions into starvation. Sectarian divisions are fuelled by occupying powers to further divide and weaken us.
The Muslim Ummah now needs a new political thinking and direction. It requires a new leadership that will unify the Ummah and utilize her resources to address these countless problems. This one day conference will address the obligation of unifying the Ummah under one leadership and discuss how political unity is the only practical way forward for the Muslim Ummah.
Conference: Khilafah - The Need for Political Unity
Don't forget, the next summer Olympic Games will be in London, too.
Conference 2008 Programme - Khilafah - The Need for Political Unity
This site might be worth watching in light of “last days” developments. Interesting and sobering.
HT sends delegation to all the rulers in the Muslim World. “Nice” (threatening) message.
Here's an excerpt:
We are writing to you so that you may take heed and consider the two facts that prompted us to address you and you may answer this call positively. This may lessen the burden of your sins and on the day of judgement, your books of accounts become when neither the huge amount of wealth and riches, nor your progeny will be in a position to help, except the one who comes with a pure and clean heart.
If you respond positively to our letter titled: “Our Support to the Khilafah”, our delegation will listen to you and will revert back to you accordingly. In you are to respond positively to this letter and our delegation is not sent you, our office addresses are given below. If we receive your response, we will some up with our suitable response on the issue.
If on the other hand, you choose not to respond, you will indeed not be able to harm Allah in the least, and neither will be able to hinder the formation of the Khilafah as promised by Allah (swt) and as foretold by His Prophet (saw). By this you only reach your humiliation and depravity in both the worlds:
وذلك هو الخسران المبين
“That is the evident loss.” [TMQ al-Hajj: 011]
And by this, we have given the call to you and warned you… and accomplished our responsibility.
Just found another Bible study resource.
Dr. Constable's Bible Study Notes
Jim G.
That site does give some great insight into their thinking.
Here is another perspective of interest:
THIS IS A TALE OF US EXPANSION NOT RUSSIAN AGRESSION
Here is another great "Global" thinking site to get another view.
They love to say "man made Bible."
The Emergence Of Evangelical Zionist Christians It's a 2004 article but well worth reading to internalize how we are thought of from the Global Mother Earth worshippers.
Scroll down to the bottom of that Global site I just posted.
You'll see a banner "WE ARE ALL THE CHILDREN OF ONE UNIVERSE." I have seen a few bumper stickers now which have these "signs" on them. (There are usually about 6 symbolic religious symbols.) I've been tempted to ask the drivers what they mean-although I'm pretty sure but it could be insightful to hear it out of their mouth.
My thought is that it's a movement to "meld all into one=PEACE"
When you click on that symbolic banner it takes you to some Anti-Biblical Utube videos.
Wow-these people really HATE religion. Patriarchal Tyranny: - The true origin of the three Abrahamic, Adam and Eve based religions; Judaism, and its two derivatives: Christianity and Islam.
(I'm wondering if this "book of Judas" is going to some of this type of thing in it?)
"The three (3) barbaric Abrahamic, Adam and Eve based religions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and their manuals of human slavery, subjugation, conquest, looting, murder and hate are humankind's problem all over the world, more dangerous and deadly than any weapons of mass destruction - WMD - ever invented. We must solve these deadly problems through conversation not confliction, by shedding the bright light of truth and common sense on Judaism, Christianity and Islam's criminal mullahs deceptive lies and their manuals.
Humanity has paid an extremely heavy price of time, blood and treasure in order to evolve, to reach, and gain the little wisdom that we have today. - We must realize that the destructive patriarchal extent of tribal religious supremacy wars for the past few thousand years have destroyed countless works of art, science books and the scientists who wrote them. - Undoubtedly humanity would have been in a much better place had it not been for the criminal atrocities of the tyrannical patriarchal religious men.
The scope of tribal religious supremacy wars is no longer limited to genocide, ethnic cleansing and burning down villages and towns on horse back anymore. We have now entered the age of religious Atomic Annihilation of our one, and only home, Planet Earth, and all of its inhabitants. The extremely dangerous and racist tribal supremacy if not stopped, it would stop all of us, the humankind."
So if they don't "stop" these "tribal" Christians(+Jews & Muslims) then we are going to blow up the earth & destroy the planet & humankind.
(This is from the previous article:
"The Book of Revelation written by John, is part of the man-made Bible book, which includes the foolish shortsighted description of the end of the world. Extremely well paid scholars are trying very hard to make YOU believe that Evangelical Church people and Evangelical Christians will be safely removed out of their clothes naked from the earth, before God's wrath is discharged in full measure on the rest of us, the non-Evangelical Zionists Christians."
I think I'm going to get ready for the "naked" rapture and put on some "tribal" paint for the trip.
Remember what Achmadinijad said: First kill the Jews then 2ndly the Evangelical Zionists
Daphna Ziman is a Jewish philanthropist in Los Angles. Her work with the African American community is well known.She was supposed to be honored. Instead she was subjected to a vicious Jew-hating diatribe by a supporter of Barack Obama. It's no secret: the black community is riddled with Jew-hatred. And with so many apologists for Jeremiah Wright on the left and in the Jewish community, well, Jew-hatred has found a comfortable home not just in the black community but in the Democratic party.
I got that video from this Jewish Blog which is quite good
Is the Russian Invasion of Georgia an End-times Development?
IMHO, here's a good, basic article that seems to sum a few things up well.. (traditional pre-trib)
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http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/press-centre/press-release/thousands-attend-london-khilafah-the-need-for-political-unity-conference.html
London, UK, August 16 2008 – Thousands of delegates attended Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain's national Conference: Khilafah – The Need for Political Unity in London earlier today, part of a month of global activities following similar events in Palestine, Iraq, Indonesia, Lebanon, Bangladesh, Ukraine, Mombasa, Australia, Pakistan and Yemen.
The key conference message was the need for Muslims to work for a new politics of uniting the Muslim lands under a unified leadership, the Khilafah. Speakers outlined how the complex and diverse problems that exist from the Atlantic coast of Morocco to the Pacific coast of Indonesia are almost impossible to solve when viewed in isolation, or through the outmoded prism of the nation state. It is an astonishing fact that the Muslim world possesses approximately 20% of the world’s population, over 60% of the world’s oil reserves and 55% of gas reserves, approximately 37% of the world’s gold and forex reserves, and almost 25% of the world’s defence personnel. Yet in the absence of the Khilafah to harness these bountiful resources, it remains weak, divided and colonised.
Lisa, Shalom! Wow! Sounds like you had an ... interesting ... evening with your Jewish Attorney. Just a couple of comments (as he shuffles through his papers...)
1. The "Book of Judas" came out about a year ago. Archaeologically and historically, it's a marvelous find. Theologically, it's a wet firecracker. Simply put, it's a gnostic gospel. One reason the gnostics are considered heretics is that they preach salvation through "knowledge" or "hidden knowledge" ("gnostic" comes from the Greek word for "knowledge") rather than through the saving sacrifice of Jesus. Many gnostics believed that Jesus's death on the cross was an accident. The Gospel of Judas portrays Judas as the only one of the apostles who understood Jesus and who understood that truth about Jesus. Together, he and Jesus conspire to have Jesus arrested, etc. in order to shake the other apostles out of their foolish view of Jesus and embrace the knowledge Jesus imparted, yada yada yada. National Geographic had a special on it last year where they dealt with the history of the document (it was kept locked in a bus station locker for a number of years) and how it was translated. Those parts were good. They presented the story told in the gospel, mentioning it was a gnostic gospel, without going into the details of why mainstream Christianity rejected gnosticism (bad, bad Christians, suppressing theology that doesn't agree with theirs).
I can't say if the Pope was given a copy of the Judas document or not; I can say there is no need for him to issue a statement on it other than what other bishops and theologians had said about it: that it's a gnostic gospel and so cannot be considered any way equal to the four Gospels in the existing canon; and not everything with the word "gospel" in the title is good, accurate, or true.
2. There were more than 12 disciples; there were many disciples. (There's something in the back of my mind that say 144, but the coffee hasn't kicked in yet so I'm not going to try to confirm that.) Jesus lost a lot of them when He preached that His followers would have to practice ritual cannibalism on Him, eating (the Greek word literally means "gnawing", so there would be no mistaking this for some symbolic consumption) His flesh and drinking His blood. ("For My Flesh is true food, and My Blood true drink" John 6:55 -- Anyone up for a debate on the Real Presence in Communion? ;-)
There were, however, only 12 Apostles. Some modern writers make the claim that Mary Magdalene and Mary, Mother of Jesus should also be considered Apostles, which would bring the number to 14; however, that view is mostly pushed by the people who support women's ordination. There is no scriptural or historical evidence to suggest that the two Marys served in any role comparable to the Apostles, either before or after His resurrection.
Good move on getting him to agree to read "Epicenter"!
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lisa;
About the Global site you posted, let me try to get this straight... All religions are accepted (according to the banner at the bottom) except the evangelical bible believing Christians. If you follow the true God and His Son Jesus you are obviously deluded at best and most definitely dangerous.
Wow that makes perfect sense, especially coming from such humanity loving people as the site portrays them to be...
I guess there is nothing new there except the prophecy of Jesus: Jhn 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
Maranatha!
we also watched the Olympic swim of Phelps rather than the Rick Warren show. some at church watched it and they felt Warren was clearly partisan toward BHO
Lisa
I have seen a lot of those bumper stickers around here and they are one of the biggest reason that I don't think that the one world religion will be islam. We actually have a fairly active Baha'i community near here-commune and everything and they are VERY active in their missionary work. The big sell is that you don't have to change your faith really all you have to do is agree that all religions are equal and valid as ways to God. we have a Greek orthodox monastery nearby also. rather odd combo. my answer to their cries of exclusion are I'm the messenger not the origin of the message. The Bible makes this claim itself. A poor analogy would be to ask if they established a scholarship for students would they not have certain criteria set forth that would have to be met to get that scholarship-area of study, maintaining certain gpa, be a certain gender or ethnicity etc. They certainly wouldn't bend the rules on an endowed scholarship for someone who didn't met the criteria so why on earth would they think that the God of the universe would do anything less?
btw, hubby recommending Epicenter represents a milestone for him does it not?
Jim,
Thank you for the "heads up" on the book of Judas. Why did I know that you would be the one to ask about it?
I guess my suspicion of what could Judas possibly have to say since he was a liar & a traitor is quite accurate after all.
So this book must have really confirmed this attorney's doubts of Jesus being the Messiah since he's so excited about it.
I had also asked that very question about this book-does it seem to disprove Jesus ? and he would only reply with: "you have to read the book." He didn't want to clue me in on that one.
Oh well. I'll read the book like I said I would and give him my opinion like I said I would.
How do I get myself into these things? God really does have a great sense of humor.He gets me to do these things which I would not eagerly volunteer for.(I'm sure it's for my personal growth & other
reasons unaware.)
Jim, I'll go head to toe with you on your supernatural beating heart body of Christ wafers but I don't always want to be the one to spur on debates in the Cave.
Some people may feel I'm against you because of what I bring up or say about Cathalosism but it's actually because I do like you so much that I'll always discuss these things.
Mr. Hyde,
Is this blogspot the home of former bloggers from Joel Rosenberg's blog?
I might have gotten the name wrong, but I thought I had the spelling right.
Are you discussing biblical end of days prophecies?
Tanya
anonymous tanya;
"Is this blogspot the home of former bloggers from Joel Rosenberg's blog?"
Yes it is and we do discuss end times related things from time to time.
Maranatha!
Jib,
Is that what it is-Baha'i? I've never heard of it. I think the same thing about Islam not being the one world religion either.
Interesting today our pastor brought up the very issue we touched on last week regarding Messianic Jews (Is that what they are? or something different?) trying to convince Christians to follow the Jewish Feasts/Laws of the OT.
I did not know this but apparently in our part of TN this is a big noise and quite an issue with the Body of Christ. They actually target Christians telling them this is a "better way" to get closer to God.
We were going through the entire chapter of Colossians 2. In it are deceptive heresies in which Paul was warning the Body of Christ about. (Same today as then)
A Gnostic philosophy which taught that you could somehow earn status by having a legalistic relationship w/ God by keeping the outward rules of the law.
verse 16) "So let no one judge you in food or drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."
There was another which taught God was so far removed from man that the best way for access was to pray through angels and other spirits. This is considered "false humility." (verse 18)
Then there was one which would be "neglect of the body." Such as people who nail themselves to crosses beat themselves w/spiked chains, etc.. (BTW the self-imposed chain type of thing was taken from Islam-they were the 1st to do that to themselves.)
verse 20) Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as through living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-"Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using-according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
The bottom line is verse 2:9,10
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."
Jesus is complete and dwells in us through the Holy Spirit. We don't need anything else nor is there a "better way" to approach God.
If you want to see the sermon on it Christ in you the hope of glory-Part 8
Lisa,
There are several different persons in the NT named Judas.
Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot
Judas, the brother of Jesus
(Sorry Jim C. but Matt. 13:55 and Mark 6:3 do refer to him as a "brother" of Jesus.)
Judas (not Judas Iscariot) mentioned in John 14:22
Judas son of James (Acts 1:13)
Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37)
Judas on Straight Street (Acts 9:11)
Judas (called Barsabbas) who was a leader in the early church (Acts 15:22-32)
Maybe some of the passages above refer to the same person but it is clear that there were several folks besides the one who betrayed Jesus who were named Judas.
I wonder which Judas supposedly wrote this "gospel" you were given.
Iran sparks US concern with satellite rocket launch
Chavez: Venezuela to launch satellite from China
Venezuelan President Chavez praised Russia's actions in Georgia
New Radar System In Place Against Iranian Missiles
Sarkozy demands that Russia comply with cease fire Play nice or I'll hit you with this EU flyswatter
Russia 'strengthens occupation' despite claims of withdrawal
Russia's Arctic ambitions challenged
Ukraine torments Russia with show of solidarity
Zawahiri: Pervez (Musharraf) has proven himself to be one of the biggest enemies of Islam, if the not the biggest Possible reason for the impeachment?
Russia considering arming Baltic fleet with nuclear warheads
US, allies contemplating action against Russia
Turkish prez says US must share power in 'new world order
Vajraprahar to Red Flag: Army, Air Force of India and U.S. Hold Simultaneous War Games around the World
The King of Bahrain Wants the Jews Back
Jim, are you CatholicDude on Joel's new site? I laughed like crazy when I saw it and thought of you.
AARRGGHH! There have been so many comments worthy of further comments, and yet, I'm feeling really run down tonight after having all 3 of my daughters this weekend! So please bear with me whilst I ramble.
Lisa, I think your attorney's haste to believe the "gospel of Judas" (I refuse to dignify that document by using a capital letter for "gospel") is because it gives him permission to ignore all other sources that prove Jesus' role as Messiah, in the traditional Jewish understanding of the term. It's like those tabloid stories about the baby supposedly fathered by John Edwards is actually the result of government research into cloning using DNA from both Elvis and Marilyn Monroe, as reported by a group of leading scientists. (Said "leading scientists" are never named, for their own safety of course, since it is a secret government program, meaning it must be true.) (Boy, I think I missed my true calling there...)
Let's see if, after he reads "Epicenter", you can get him to read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.
As for the "supernatural beating heart body of Christ wafers", I don't mean to poke you with a stick. I just find it amusing that so many of the Fundamentalists I know say that Catholics "don't believe in the Bible" because we don't accept a literalist interpretation of Scripture, yet when there is something the Catholics DO take literally ("Eat My Body, drink My Blood"), we're told that we're "misinterpreting Scripture."
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P.S. Lori, my copy of "Unlocking God's Secrets" came Thursday -- excellent book, and one I'll definitely be recommending! I'll let you know when I've finished reading it.
Lisa, Shalom! I've know something about Baha'i since I was a teenager, because one of my favorite groups was Seals and Croft, both of whom are Baha'i. They occasionally used Baha'i sacred writings as inspiration for their songs, such as "Hummingbird." They also had a chart-topping hit in 1974 called "Unborn Child", asking the mother to stop and think it over before aborting her baby. Not the most popular stance for a pop-rock duo to take at the time (or any time, for that matter.) Baha'i is not strictly "pro-life" but they don't encourage it, because the mother may be aborting the next Einstein or Shakespeare.
(For the bonus round, John Seals is the brother of Dan Seals, aka "England Dan" of "England Dan and John Ford Coley" fame.)
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Jim G., Shalom! The "Gospel of Judas" is supposed to have been composed by Judas Iscariot. In the Catholic translations of the Bible, the other Judas is referred to as "Jude" or "Jude Thaddeus" to avoid confusion. This is the Jude that wrote the Epistle of Jude and is referred to as the "brother" of Jesus.
For the record, this confusion over "brothers and sisters of Jesus" comes from the Greek word "adelphoi/adelphai" (brothers/sisters), which is commonly assumed to be used only to describe "uterine" brothers and sisters. However, its use in Mark 6:3 shows that this is not the case. In Greek it says ...ouch outos estin o tekton o uios tes Marias adelphos de Iakobou Iose kai Iouda kai Simonos... "Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of Yacob [James], Joses [Joseph], and Judah [Jude], and Simon?" If Jesus were the uterine brother of the other four (the brother to the exclusion of any other), then Mark would write ho adelphos. But no manuscripts give that reading. Adelphos without the article (ho) is non-specific and non-exclusive: Jesus is a relative, one of many, of the other four. Notice also the repetition (called polysyndeton) of the word "and" (kai) between the names of the other four. This suggests that Mark is presenting them, not as a cohesive group, but as four disparate individuals.
James "the Little" or "the Younger" is often called "brother [adelphos] of the Lord" (Matt. 13:55, Mark 6:3, Gal. 1:19, and elsewhere by implication). Twice he is named in series with Joses (Joseph), Judas, and Simon. Their "sisters" (adelphai) are also mentioned, but not named (Matt. 13:56, Mark 6:3). James is mentioned with Joses at the time of our Lord's death. They are there called "the sons of Mary, the wife of Clopas," a Mary different from our Blessed Mother (Matt. 27:56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25).
This "other" Mary (Matt. 27:61, 28:1) is called our Lady's "sister" (adelphe) in John 19:25. It is unlikely that two girls of the same parents were given the same name "Mary." So our Lady and the other Mary were related in a wider sense of adelphai (i.e., cousins). James, the son of the other Mary, a relative of Jesus, but not his uterine brother, became the first bishop of Jerusalem.
Joses (Joseph) is several times mentioned with his brother James and is mentioned alone as the son of the other Mary at the burial of Jesus (Mark 15:47).
So, to reiterate, the use of the Greek word "adelphoi" and its variants does not automatically mean "brother" in the uterine sense of the word,
It is possible that "Jude Thaddeus" is the Judas Barsabbas (son of Sabbas) of Acts 15:22-33 and the brother of Joseph Barsabbas, a nominee with Matthias in the apostolic election of Acts 1:23-26. If this Sabbas was the father of the Joseph and Judas of Mark 6:3, he was possibly also the father of James and Simon of the same verse. James and Judas were apostles, then, and Joseph just missed becoming an apostle by the fall of the dice (Acts 1:26).
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Lori, Shalom! Thanks for posting all those news links. I sympathize with the "copy/paste" syndrome, and thank you for your work.
And yes, I am "Catholicdude" on WordPress! For some reason, it didn't like any of my existing names and I had to come up with something totally new.
I was chilled when I read to the bottom of that article on the dummy satellite launch by Iran, and found this statement:
Sunday's launch came on the birth anniversary of eighth century Imam Mahdi, who vanished as a boy and who Shiites believe will return one day as the messiah.
Looks like there's another date to watch...
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Jim C.,
You wrote:
As for the "supernatural beating heart body of Christ wafers", I don't mean to poke you with a stick. I just find it amusing that so many of the Fundamentalists I know say that Catholics "don't believe in the Bible" because we don't accept a literalist interpretation of Scripture, yet when there is something the Catholics DO take literally ("Eat My Body, drink My Blood"), we're told that we're "misinterpreting Scripture."
I'm Protestant and I had the same thought regarding folks taking certain portions of Scripture literally and others figuratively.
Just curious, can you give an example of a passage that Catholics take figuratively that some others take literally?
Jim, you ought to consider being a contestant on some of those game shows on tv...you could win! You know so much about so many different topics! Or at least know how to access info quickly.
I can't imagine being able to remember and store so much information!
Jim C.,
Thanks bro for the explanation regarding the term brothers.
I'm not sure why it matters if Mary and Joseph had any children after Jesus was born.
Jim C,
You can go ahead and poke me w/a stick all you want to- I deserve it. As I wrote that "beating heart" sentence under the guise of a poop eating grin I knew it was going to get-cha!
I went out and bought the Epicenter book today and realized it is the 2.0 version "Updated & Expanded."
It has some interesting new things added. (My original old copy I had Joel sign for my hubby. I'm pretty proud of him to make that deal w/his friend. He’s going to deliver it to him tomorrow before he leaves.)
I'm afraid you’re right Jim C. about his quick support for this rogue Judas book. Even if you are not Christian-come on-Judas Iscariot? You’re going to believe what he would have to say over the entire New Testament?
I would not want to be standing before Christ and telling Him that my ultimate rejection was due to believing a book Judas Iscariot wrote.
I pray this man will come around to see the truth.
Shalom, all! The following was posted on the Catholic Answers Forum in the "End Times Speculation thread. We were discussing the sensation of "thinning of the veil" in terms of future events. I thought it was moving enough that I asked for her permission to repost it here.
So many things seem to change in my world on a day to day basis. Sometimes I forget where I am at in my walk of Faith. Like I wake up in the morning thinking about where I was 2 days ago, and realize the epiphanies I experienced the day before.
Imagine if it wasn't all about what God is doing. At least He never changes, so I can count on this as simply a growing closer to Him experience. I can't comprehend what people who don't believe in God are thinking about the winds of change in the air. They are so strong that I can literally feel them sometimes. Like in the LOTR movies, in the third one when Pippin is standing on the balcony with Gandalf. They can see that things are happening, and they are just waiting for things to materialize. Like I can see it on the horizon.
BTW, she has expressed an interest in visiting this blog, and I'll vouch for her. Does anyone have any concerns about my giving her this URL?
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Last night a 4.6 Earthquake in N.California.
Earthquake Map
BTW, she has expressed an interest in visiting this blog, and I'll vouch for her. Does anyone have any concerns about my giving her this URL?
Jim C, personally I don't a problem if the others don't. Given that you vouch for her and you're sure she's not Miss T in disguise.
Morning, all...
So what's up? No news today?
Will be out all day, but hope to check back in later.
Blessings,
Jen
Jim G wrote:
"I'm not sure why it matters if Mary and Joseph had any children after Jesus was born."
In my mind, it does not matter if Mary and Joseph had other children.
For Catholics it is important that they did not have other children, as the RCC church claims Mary was "ever" virgin.
(Jim C, correct me if I am wrong. I am basing my statement on what the RCC taught in the RCC Catechism classes. I doubt it's changed, but you never know.)
It's also fine with me if Jim C's friend wants to come on board.
I assume Jim will let her know that we are not Catholics...although many (or at least some) of us were former Catholics...so that she knows what she is getting herself into!
Yes, I realize that is a teaching of the RCC but I don't understand why it is important.
Paul said the marriage bed is undefiled. If Mary had sexual relations with Joseph after Jesus was born and after they were married, what does it matter?
It would seem WRONG for a married couple not to have sexual relations and we know they were married and together until at least the time when Jesus was 12 and taught in the Temple.
Anyway, back to my original question. Why would it matter if Jesus had brothers or sisters in the more usual sense that we use that word in English today?
Jim G and Jim C
it is as Donna said only important to Catholics and to those in protestant circles trying to prove that Catholicism is a false religion.
I'm with you Jim G, I don't think God would allow two people to marry and then call them to perpetual virginity. I do think however it has something to do with the immaculate conception, which refers to Mary btw, wince this holds that Mary was also sinless. If she had intimate relations even within marriage this would make her sinful (not sure how since this is commended by God as good and the only appropriate avenue for such). There is a verse elsewhere that after her days of purification that Joseph went into Mary and knew her-my understanding is that this is the same knew used elsewhere to describe sexual intimacy.
Jim C unless giving birth to Messiah made her sterile one should rightly assume that other children did result irrelevant of the greek words used. It may also be that particular word in greek was used because they didn't want to own up to a closer relation ship with Christ. I find it odd however that they would names specific names it they did not mean blood relations. Keep in mind that most thought Mary had sinned before marriage so would they have used the word meaning a uterine relationship if Christ's paternity were in doubt since those named would be half brothers?
Lori
the article on the King wanting the Jews back is most fascinating.
Joel has a new post.
Harold,
FYI the author of the temple book is now claiming that the Ark is buried in mount Nebo Ark Buried in Nebo. I note that he puts the distance at 25.20 nautical miles. Which I think given his current theory either means it was buried there in the year 25 (which regardless whether that was bc or ad is well after the Temple fell) or will be discovered in the year 2520-I really don't think this world has that much time left.
Lisa
if you want to read and learn more about the Baha'i The religion started after Islam that incorporates all others
JIM G. Why is it important for Mary and Joseph not to have other children according to the RCC? It isn't in their (RCC) script. The lights dim, the attendees are quietened and suspense fills the air. Suddenly a noise that seems to come from heaven roars in the vast caverns of time and the question:
Did they or Didn't they?
They were Jewish citizens living in the typical Jewish customs that were in place at the time. To abstain from wedded relationships was forbidden. God told them to multiply and inhabit the earth. Show me where in the Bible it says that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus' birth.
I know what the traditions of man says, but give me Book, chapter and verse. Traditions are the corruptions of scripture.
Grany
JIM C. that challenge to present Book, Chapter and verse was directed to you my round friend.
I think your catholic friend is neat but I agree with Mac; run her under the the ultrasound a couple of times and check out her pedigree for any signs of the "T" syndrome, OK!
I really am interested in knowing why this belief of Mary and Joseph's relationship was unnatural in the truest sense of the word. Not trying to be a smart aleck.
Grany
Another view of the Rick Warren Show which means I may have to at least watch the McCain part
Grany
I really to think it has to do with the immaculate conception but could be wrong. in my theology class we studied each of the doctrines that were part of the schools position and then we studied other things like transubstantiation, immaculate conception etc. so my knowledge is a bit sketchy after 25 or so years :-)
Russia revives the cold war
several of the most interesting sentences
"The Russian view is that the West has been well warned and if it didn't want to recognize the fact, that was its problem. "
"Europe's capitals and Washington are contorting themselves in avoiding the obvious."
"Russia, still effectively led by KGB-trained and experienced Vladimir Putin,..."
I think the second one is quite telling-contorting themselves to avoid the obvious-doesn't that rather sound like what will be happening when the war of Gog and Magog breaks out?
for all those who want to say that Joel was wrong on Putin being a rising czar one only has to look at the general consensus that Putin is STILL the leader of Russia and that the current President is a figure head only. Putin is still imho a rising czar!
Jib, I remember getting into a whole heated debate because I called Putin Czar Vladimir Putin and someone, can't remember who, really ate my lunch. I hope they have reason to remember those words echoing in their thick skulls right about now. If I remember right it was back in March of 2007 about the second comment I made. Also about the time the British citizen, ex-KGB agent was viciously poisoned. He accused Putin of doing it.
Anyway, Putin's selected Cardboard Standup is surprising very small physically and the thought went through my head, someone that Putin doesn't have to look up to when speaking to him.
I cannot seem to get rid of the 'HIGH ALERT' I find myself in this morning. I have done all of the normal things whenever this has happened but I mean EXTREME HIGH ALERT! Not fear, just being very aware!
Now this is for Lisa! I think you need to listen Andrew Strom's Nigerian speech, "THUNDERING IN NIGERIA" posted on his web site. Find it on the right hand side at his home page. Listen to what he says, how he says it and then pray, LISA! Let the Holy Spirit reveal to you what is driving this man. I am not going to give the link because I don't want to multiply the atmosphere here or anywhere else. You know the link and as born again believers, filled with the HS, we are responsible for keeping a building up of the faith in others. We don't it by tearing down and trashing.
I am not asking for a report back! I will know it when I see it.
Love you all,
Grany
Jib-from your link (this all sounds too familiar)
"...the five-million member Bahá'à community has become the second most widespread religion in the world."
"One of the most distinctive aspects of the worldwide Bahá'à community is the hopeful and yet pragmatic way in which its members face the future. Far from fearing it, Bahá'Ãs the world over are dedicated to creating a new and peaceful world civilization based on principles of justice, prosperity, and continuing advancement. This vision reflects not only an appreciation for humanity's historic longing for peace and collective well-being, but also our understanding that humanity as a whole has now reached a new level of maturity. That it is possible to create societies founded upon cooperation, trust, and genuine concern for others is at the heart of Bahá'à belief and action. Indeed, Bahá'Ãs believe that humanity is on the verge of an evolutionary leap that will carry humankind to a future where "world peace is not only possible but inevitable."
Bahá'u'lláh asserted, "So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth."
Grany,
You are on fire girl! (I'm ready for another blast. Ready & waiting that is!)
I listened to his Nigeria speech first thing this morning.
Mr.Strom is a person I greatly respect & admire. His calling seems to be in waking people up and shaking them to the core if necessary. There is a great love shown in him & though him for the sheep of Christ.
(I just got the goose bumps thinking about this & I'm not cold)
Who is willing to put themselves on the line-against the tide-to speak up & speak out in hope to save the souls of spiritually stripped and starving believers?
Andrew's end time beliefs & what I have in mind don't exactly fit together but no matter who has it right or wrong-God works through people both in timing and content for His purpose & glory.
In Nigeria they may have a chance to respond & turn it around.
In America-ok Grany. I'll pray.
Shalom, all! I had planned to write a reply to Jim G. first thing this morning; I'm glad I let myself get delayed so I can respond to everyone at once.
To sum it up, the question of "Did Mary and Joseph have other biological children after Jesus" is important to Catholics because we view Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant.
If you review the biblical descriptions and history of the original Ark of the Covenant, you find many parallels between it and Mary, Mother of Jesus. (Grant R. Jeffrey points this out in his book "Unveiling Mysteries of the Bible".) God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex. 25–30). It was a place where God himself would dwell (Ex. 25:8). God wanted his words—inscribed on stone—housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word — Jesus — to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless? This is where we get the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: As the Ark of the Old Covenant was to be perfect, flawless, and without stain, so is the Ark of the New Covenant (Mary) preserved from the stain of Original Sin.
(One of the problems that I have with Grant Jeffrey's description in his book is that he implies that the stain of original sin is passed down only through the father -- that the mother, even though fallen and in sin, would not pass on original sin to her children that grew inside her. I can find nothing biblical in that belief, and I can only assume that he takes this position so he is freed from having to defend against the Catholic belief in the Immaculate Conception.)
After the Ark was returned by the Philistines to the Israelites David went to retrieve it (1 Sam 6:1–2). While it was being carried back to Jerusalem on a cart a man named Uzzah touched the Ark and was struck dead. David ordered the Ark to be kept in the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judah until David could bring it back to Jerusalem, about 3 months. We also know that while it was being carried back to Jerusalem, David danced and lept in front of the Ark and everyone shouted for joy. Now compare that to the description of the Visitation given by Luke (Luke 1:39-45):
1. Mary went to the hill country of Judah, to a city of Judah, to visit her cousin Elizabeth. This hill country is the same area where the Ark was kept -- within walking distance of each other. Mary and the Ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.
2. When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" Elizabeth uses almost the same words: "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
3. When David approached the Ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb — and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the Ark.
4. The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22).
Luke is telling us something—drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel. It seems clear that Luke has used typology to reveal something about the place of Mary in salvation history. In the Ark of the Old Covenant, God came to his people with a spiritual presence, but in Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, God comes to dwell with his people not only spiritually but physically, in the womb of a specially prepared Jewish girl. There are many other parallels between the original Ark and Mary; PM me and I'll send you the links.
To summarize: if Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, then she, like the original Ark, was to remain pure and untouched for all time. It's not like every few years they'd build another copy of the Ark and give the old one to someone as a gift.
Mary also fulfills another typology: the Queen Mother. Catholics give Mary the title, "Queen of Heaven." Frankly, I've never understood Protestant's objection to that title. She bore the Son who is the king -- that should make her Queen Mother and she would be crowned as such. The alternative is that the mother of the king came from someone the father did not want to recognize, i.e. a royal concubine (aka, a royal whore). So I would think most Protestants would welcome this designation of Mary: an acknowledgment of her basic dignity.
In the Davidic Kingdom, the Queen was the Queen Mother. Since the kings at the time would have several wives, none of them could bear the title "Queen", so the Queen was the mother of the King. We see that in 1 Kings 1, where Adonijah attempt to claim the throne, since he was the brother of Absalom by the same mother. Yet it's not Solomon who goes to David and asks if he had made Adonijah king. That would have been the height of insult. Instead, it's Bathsheba, the mother of Solomon, who approaches the King. Adonijah trys to claim the throne by acting like a king, treating everyone to a party, and getting their support. Solomon becomes king because Bathsheba, his mother, acts as a Queen Mother should.
The story continues in 1 Kings 2. After David dies and Solomon assumes the throne, Adonijah wants a favor, but he could not approach the king directly. Instead, he goes to the Queen Mother and asks her to ask for him. He said, "Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite for my wife." "Very well," replied Bathsheba, "I will speak to the king for you." (1 Kings 2:17-18) This is where Catholics justify the practice of asking Mary to pray for us or to intercede for us: As the Queen of Heaven, the Queen Mother, that is one of her duties: to present the petitions of the people to the king her Son.
What happens next is important. Bathsheba presents Adonijah's request to Solomon, who promptly gets up, finds Adonijah, and kills him. You see, Abishag the Shunamite was one of David's concubines, and was now Solomon's concubine. If Solomon had given her to Adonijah, Adonijah could have used her to undermine Solomon's authority and claim on the throne. Likewise, while we today might not see any problem with G_D giving Mary to Joseph after Jesus was born, in that time any children from Joseph and Mary could have been used to weaken Jesus' claim on the Davidic throne.
But what of Mary and Joseph themselves? As Jib says, I don't think God would allow two people to marry and then call them to perpetual virginity. That is true. But what if they were called to perpetual virginity BEFORE the marriage?
When the Angel appeared to Mary to announce that G_D had chosen her to become the mother of the Messiah, she asked, "How can this be since I do not know man?" Now, the Annunciation occured after the betrothal but before the marriage. At the time, it was the custom for a betrothal ceremony, with the actual wedding taking place a year later. This allowed time for the husband-to-be to build and furnish a house for his bride. If Mary knew she was getting married, why would she be asking "How can this be?" The only reason would be because Mary had dedicated herself to be a perpetual virgin. Abstaining from marriage was not illegal, but not unheard of at the time. This "dedication to virginity" also would have had to have gotten Joseph's blessing, too. He could not have given full consent to the betrothal and wedding if Mary had kept that dedication from him.
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Also click on the "Universal House of Justice" link. It's located on Mount Carmel in Haifa, Israel. It has a similar look to the White House. Could this place be used in the future for "world peace" events?
Jim C.,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. It raises a few further questions though.
You wrote:
But what if they were called to perpetual virginity BEFORE the marriage?
That is a big "what if" statement.
What if we don't have any basis for that in Scripture. Sure, you might be able to assume it based upon parallels drawn between the Ark of the Covenant and Mary. But, you might also assume that Mary had wings and was made of gold based upon assumed parallels.
My point is that it seems to be a pretty significant assumption (no pun intended) to make about Mary without having more direct Scripture to support it.
You also wrote:
To summarize: if Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, then she, like the original Ark, was to remain pure and untouched for all time.
Isn't sex within marriage considered pure in God's site?
What does it mean to be "untouched" for all time. Could Joseph not ever physically touch her? Nobody would be able to touch her if human touch defiles. You have to be consistent with your parallel to the Ark of the Covenant. No touching. I'm sure Mary was physically touched by others in her life even if not touched in a sexual way by Joseph after marriage. But this leaves the problem of making sex inside the covenant of marriage as something that is unclean.
Another problem with having Christ have to be born from a sinless person (Mary) in order to be sinless is that it only removes the problem one step from Christ. Wouldn't Mary's mother have had to have been sinless too in order for Mary to have been sinless?
In other words, the doctrine of Mary being sinless doesn't seem to solve the perceived problem that Catholics apparently have with Mary being a sinner like all other persons who descended from Adam.
Jim C.
Bless you brother but I don't agree! Scripture, scripture, scripture. Remember, traditions pervert and divert.
I think it is great that the RCC esteems the Mother of Christ so highly but even Jesus retreated from her being more important than any body else at the Wedding in Cana.
John 1: "1: And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3: And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4: Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5: His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it."
And then there is this:
Mary, the mother of Jesus , and several of his kinfolk [the text uses the words "brothers and sisters" since there is no word for "cousins" in Hebrew or Aramaic] came to his home in Capernium. When they got there, there was a crowd sitting near the door. Someone in the crowd went inside and said, "Your mother, and your brothers and sisters are outside asking for you." Jesus replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?" Looking at the crowd at the door, he said, "These are my mother and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of God is my brother, my sister and my mother." [Mark 3:31-35]
But, in fact, the Immaculate Conception doctrine states that Mary, "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin." This meant that Mary herself was preserved from original sin, that she was born without a sin nature, and that she lived a sinless life.
There is no biblical support or scriptural basis for the Immaculate Conception of Mary doctrine. Mary, although favored of God, was an ordinary human being. According to Scripture, only Jesus Christ was immaculately conceived, born of a virgin, and born without sin. He was the only human being to live a sinless life.
For this doctrine to hold up, wouldn't Mary's mother have to be free from original sin also, else Mary would have inherited a sinful nature through her? Based on Scripture, the miracle of Jesus Christ's conception was that he alone was conceived as the only perfect and sinless one, because of his complete union with the divine nature of God.
I just cannot add to what the word of God is very clear about. I cannot make Mary more than what God intended her to be: A wonderful vessel to receive, nourish and give birth to the promised and precious Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the World. I love her for being the Mother she was to be and how she was faithful to her assignment but I cannot glorify her. I understand your passion Jim but I do not agree with the teaching and doctrine at all.
As for the reason Joseph was excluded and not Mary; it all began in the Garden of Eden on a very tragic day for creation. Eve was deceived by the serpent but Adam committed the sin or rebellion against God's orders not to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree. God didn't tell Eve not to but HE DID TELL ADAM AND EXPECTED OBEDIENCE. Adam could have easily said NO but he took the fruit and ate of it. Free Will of the first kind.
Enter the fig leaves and hide-n-seek! Also, the Adamic Curse.
I never realized there was a theory such as Immaculate Conception and I probably should have left it alone but at least now I know what it is and that's all that is needed.
Thank you Jim C., love ya brother,
Grany
IMO, lots of what the RCC teaches is not biblically based, which is why so many folks have left it.
IMO, it is basically a man made religion, very loosely based on the Bible...which is not cool at all and IMO has led many astray.
Jim C.,
According to Perry Stone, and other Bible teachers, the term, Queen of Heaven, is a pagan title.
In Islam, Mary is also highly revered.
As a Presbyterian girl, I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood. We lived near St. Pat's. (they also had a school) And as a Presbyterian girl, I also thought then (and now) that as Protestants we didn't give the Mother of Jesus enough respect. However, I do not believe in the Immaculate Conception.
I do have a question, though, Jim. Not being disrespectful, but what does (scripture reference would be most helpful) "the backdoor of heaven" really mean, as a RC? I have to say I heard this phrase quite a lot growing up, and the explaination I was given, was that Mary could let people in the backdoor of heaven. Okay, was this just a WA. State belief, or is it an actual belief from the RCC? OR is this explaination correct, from your standpoint? If you would be so kind to answer, I would appreciate it. (when time permits, of course)
My entire day has been re-directed today, in regards to prayer. Remember, prayer changes things.
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Here is more info on the pagan source of the title QUEEN OF HEAVEN
(The entire article is very interesting but here's a sample:)
1. "Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." [Jeremiah 7:17-18] In this section of Jeremiah, God is telling Israel why He is about to physically destroy them as a nation. God is acting much like a Prosecutor who is informing the accused as to the charges against them. Notice that God is very angry that these people are preparing to worship the Queen of Heaven. He is saying that this worship of the Queen of Heaven is "provoking" Him to anger!
3. "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows." [Jeremiah 44:25] We see that God has finally gotten the message, that the people are going to worship this Queen of Heaven no matter what He says. Therefore, God tells them to go ahead with their rebellion, because He is going to totally destroy them. You can read the full account of this Divine Judgment in Jeremiah 44:1-20-29, and we encourage you to read it, for God never changes, and He would be just as enraged today about this idolatrous worship as He was then."
"First, let us examine the ancient Queen of Heaven. Most of this information is taken from Alexander Hislop's book, "The Two Babylons", 1917. Hislop traces the Babylonian worship of the Queen of Heaven back to the days following the death of Nimrod. The dating of this event is not known exactly, but seems to date 400+ years after the flood. After Nimrod's death, his wife, Semiramis, was determined to retain her power and wealth. She concocted the story that Nimrod's death was for the salvation of mankind. Nimrod was touted as "the woman's promised seed, Zero-ashta, who was destined to bruise the serpent's head, and in so doing, was to have his own heel bruised." (p. 58-59)
'We can easily see that this story is a counterfeit to the true prophecy concerning Jesus Christ. To enable the Babylonian people to better worship this child, a woodcut portrait was created, depicting him in his mother's arms. The mother obviously drew her glory from her deified son. However, "the mother, in the long-run, practically eclipsed the son" in worship. The original picture obviously was meant to merely be a "pedestal for the upholding of the divine son...But, while this... was the design, it is a plain principle in all idolatries that that which most appeals to the senses must make the most powerful impression." (p, 74) The mother obviously created the most powerful visual impression, both because she was an adult and because she was so magnificently arrayed."
"Once people began to worship the mother more than the child, Babylonian priests felt forced to issue an edict deifying the mother also. After the passage of still more time, "her son's birth was boldly declared to be miraculous, and therefore she was called ...the Virgin Mother." (p.76) "The highest titles were then bestowed upon her. She was called the Queen of Heaven. In Egypt, she was styled Athor, i.e., the Habitation of God to signify that in her dwelt all the 'fulness of the Godhead'". (p.77) From this pagan beginning, the story of the Virgin Mother ( Queen of Heaven) spread throughout the world. In...
No doubt the conflict is more complicated than some of the media reports. Whatever the differences between Georgia and Ossetia, Russia is moving to take advantage of the situation.
Spinning Georgia
Brace yourself -we may be on our way back to an old world, where the strong do as they will, and the weak suffer as they must.
Brave Old World
"Intense curiosity and controversy I might add has been at the forefront globally as far as I can tell since the announcement of the discovery of an ancient limestone bone box dated 63AD, called an ossuary, (pronounced alternatively, "osh-oo-ary" or "os-yoo-ary") inscribed in Aramaic, which was the language of the Jews in Jesus day. The inscription reads, "Ya'akov bar Ysef a khui Yeshua" which translated is, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." Historical fact is, boxes like this were commonly used by Jewish families between 20BC and 70AD to store the bones of their loved ones. James is known to have been martyred in 62 AD, and the box has been dated 63AD. Tradition of that day was to place the body in a tomb until the flesh disintegrated, (1 year) and then move the bones to a ossuary to await resurrection. "
Taken from this article
Much more on the brothers & sisters of Jesus & Mary Appirations.
The Church of Mary Queen of Heaven Prayer :
"Oh Mary. Queen of Heaven. Mother of God. Bride of the Holy Spirit. We beseech thee. Please forgive us our sins. Please lay your motherly hands upon us and allow us to suckle at your breast that gives eternal life. Show your Son who was first. You begot a God and gave him life. Without you there is nothing. Oh Mary! Queen of all goddesses. Mother of all gods, great and small, we are your devoted worshipers. Mary we pray to you so that you may take our prayers to your son and change His heart. Amen.
(That one is so blatantly pagan & offensive it makes me feel ill to read it.)
HAIL MARY:
"Hail Mary, distributor of all graces the Lord listens to you.
Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed are the cakes of bread we offer you. [See Jeremiah 7:18-20]
Holy Mary, mother goddess, co-redeem us sinners now
and at the hour of death. AMEN"
That's the end of my Mary/Brother of Jesus research. The truth is there if (but my hope is when) anyone wants to see it.
Yesterday at 3:26 am mac sent out a link for what looks like a very good bible study resource.
This resource breaks down the books of the bible into outline form, and gives background info about the book..who the author was, who it was written to, under what circumstances.
Looks good!
thanks, Mac :)
Nate, I watched that video with Shep and then I watched a bunch more by private citizens who wanted to tell their own stories. Not professional by any means but it seems there might be two sides to this story and maybe we all need to listen with the ears of Holy Spirit.
Yesterday, i happened on a Christian Missionary who was serving in Ossetia and he told the same story about Georgia attacking them and then the people of South Ossetia called on Russia to send help. I will find the site and give you the link.
Grany
I have a confession to make.
At August 16, 2008 9:44 AM
I posted a statement of beliefs I found from a church. I was hoping to get more comments regarding it.
It was from Saddleback Church. I also followed it up with another list of statements that revealed some of the doctrines this church holds.
Thanks Jib for your thoughtful comments. Pretty discerning I must say though I'm not sure I see as much danger in these as you and Lisa probably do. I definitely value your thoughts and comments though. I don't take them lightly.
I heard portions of an interview of Rick Warren on Sean Hannity's radio show. He sounded very uncompromising on pro-life and marriage issues. I've also read much of Warren's book, The Purpose Driven Life.
I think he's a brother who loves the Lord and is proclaiming the gospel and trying to live it. For the life of me, I don't understand how he can give Obama such respect though. Yuk! He must answer to the Lord though, not me.
Saddleback Church – What We Believe
Saddleback Church – The Purpose Driven Covenant
Shalom, Marge and Lisa! Wow. 20 comments in two hours. I guess that will teach me to go have dinner and get some work done around the house...
First of all, Marge, if the term "Queen of Heaven" is a pagan title, big whoop. By that reasoning, we should know that George Bush is an evil and despotic character, because he holds the same title (President) that is held by Vladimir Putin and Hugo Chavez. And I would advise all of these ministers and bible teachers who say that the Catholic view of Mary Mother of Jesus originated with various Canaanite, Babylonian, and Egyptian goddesses to be EXTREMELY cautious. Because if you're going to say that Mary, the Mother of G_D is just another type of fertility or "mother" goddess, then it is a very short step to say that Jesus is no more than just another fertility god, dying and rising again like any number of agricultural gods: Osiris, Dionysos, Adonis, many others.
(BTW, Lisa, Hilsop's book is an interesting historical artifact, showing how research into pre-Christian Mesopotamian culture has changed in the last 100 years; however, it hasn't held up against more recent and comparative works on the subject.)
You may want to do some reading on the Council of Ephesus in 431. It was called in response to a number of teachings, primarily those of Nestorius and Pelagius, which attacked the divinity of Christ. Whereas earlier heresies taught that Jesus had been MADE or CREATED divine (rather than being BORN both True G_D and True Man), these heresies tried attacking the divinity of Jesus by attacking the role of Mary. Nestorianism taught that Jesus was merely the temple of the Word, and if Mary is the Mother of God she has been made a goddess. (Pelagianism is very similar, but different. Sometimes these theological debates are like playing horseshoes with dynamite.)
The Council of Ephesus condemned both Nestorianism and Pelagianism (as well as a number of other teachings) to be heretical and were condemned. In a single brief statement the Council declared that Mary gave birth NOT to a mere man, human nature, but to a Divine Person who assumed our manhood. She is properly, then, the Mother of God,
the human Mother who exists in time,
of God the Word who exists outside of time,
and not just the Mother of Christ, a title any good new ager of our day could accept. Consequently, she also is not a goddess herself, but a human person. So it is dogma of the Catholic Church that Mary is NOT a goddess, and any worship of her as such is anathema.
And Marge, the "backdoor of heaven" is a rather whimsical description. It's not a doctrine or teaching of the Church by any means. It's a reaction to those people who say that Saint Peter is at the Gates of Heaven, checking names off on a list as they try to pass through the Pearly Gates. St. Peter, being Heaven's doorman, might not be so sympathetic to some people trying to get into heaven. If that's the case, the saying went, you could go around to the back gates of Heaven, where Mary, mother of God knows who her children are and might be more willing to let people in.
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Jim C.,
Thanks so much for the explaination about the "back door of heaven." In my old neighborhood, it was mentioned quite a lot by my friends, and I didn't understand if it was RC doctrine, or what. I'm happy to hear it isn't a Church doctrine, though.
An interesting note about St. Peter at the gate of heaven. According to Jesse Duplantis (Evangelist) it is Father Abraham at the gate of heaven :) He (Jesse Duplantis) was taken to heaven, and he was surprised in his experience that it wasn't St. Peter, but Abraham. Does it matter? Not to my way of thinking it doesn't :) I'll be happy to see Abraham, and St. Peter!
Thanks again, Jim! I do appreciate your answering my question.
Grany, Shalom! I have to disagree on "traditions pervert and divert." That's only true when they contradict scripture. For one thing, until the Gospels were written down and the different Epistles collected, all we HAD was oral tradition.
As for the Wedding at Cana, you hit on one of my favorite stories about the relationship between Mary and Jesus. You'll note that the story starts out that Mary was there, and notes as a side note that Jesus and His disciples were there too -- the emphasis was on Mary. During the feast, Jesus is with one groups of people, while Mary is in the back with all the mothers, listening to the gossip, who just might get married next, "have you heard what they're charging for olives this season, and by the way Mary, I think I've found the perfect girl for Jesus, isn't it time he settled down and give you grandchildren for your old age?" And standing in the back, Mary hears the wine steward tell the groom that they're out of wine. So Mary finds Jesus and explains the situation. Jesus asks, "Honored Lady, what would you have me do? It is not yet my time." And Mary gives Jesus THAT look.
Every Jewish mother and every good Jewish son knows what THAT look is. It's the look that happens when the son comes home for the holidays two weeks before graduating from medical school, and the son won't examine the neighbor's little girl with the awful cough because "I'm not a doctor yet."
So Mary gives Jesus THAT look. And when the full force of THAT look has fallen upon Jesus, she turns to the servants, tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them to do, and walks away. Jesus says, "Ma? Come back. I know what you're doing, Ma. Ma? You're still angry because I stayed behind at the temple that year, aren't you? It was 20 years ago, Ma -- Let it go! MA? Oy, meshugga..." And then Jesus turns the water into wine, the best wine the steward had ever tasted.
Two of the lessons we can take away from this: One, that G_D never does things halfway. Jesus didn't turn the water into OK wine; He turned it into the finest quality wine. And Two, not even G_D can stand up to the will of a Jewish mother!
Another lesson is that Mary was acting as Bathsheba did with Solomon: The people needed something, and Mary made the petition to the King (Jesus). Jesus said, "It it not yet my time." In other words, the Miracle of the Water and Wine wasn't supposed to happen then. G_D had other plans for His first miracle. Yet the Queen Mother asked, and so it was given.
When you bring up the Scriptures that seemingly have Jesus denying His family, including His mother, what I see is not a denial of family, but the attempts by a teacher to keep His students focused on the subject, not on Himself.
As for there being no biblical support for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, that depends on if you believe that Luke (as I pointed out earlier) was trying to make a connection between the Ark of the Covenant and Mary, viewing Mary as a type of Ark. The argument about Mary could not have been sinless if her mother wasn't sinless is a red herring. It's assuming that only men or only women carry the burden of Original Sin. If Mary's mother had been kept free from Original Sin also, then Mary would have inherited Original Sin from her father. As it is, though, G_D preserved Mary from being stained by Original Sin so that she could be a flawless vessel for carrying G_D's Son.
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Lisa, Shalom! Re: your posting of 7:11, all I can say is "Ewww, gross!"
First of all, the "James, Brother of Jesus" Ossuary that the article talks about may very well be a forgery. There is some very good evidence to indicate that it is a forgery, where a period ossuary was taken and the inscription added, using various chemicals to make the inscription look old. Other scientists say the evidence for forgery is inconclusive. It doesn't help that the ossuary has been traced back to Oded Golan, who has been accused of running an antiquities forgery ring for the last 20 years, and is on trial now for forging a number of artifacts. In other words, it's not looking good for the ossuary, and I wouldn't be basing any arguments on it.
Second, I just skimmed through the article you linked to. I found it ... imaginative ... to say the least. Can you tell me where you got those last two prayers? They are definitely NOT Catholic prayers. As I noted in my previous reply, the Council of Ephesus declared any such worship of Mary to be cause for excommunication.
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Apparently McCain must have cheated because he outperformed Carpa...er, sorry Obama.
Rick Warren Says McCain Didn't Cheat
I first have to say I have not read all of the posts so I might be jumping the gun here but, I just had to stop and say that Mary is NOT the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus, the Son of God.
Jim,
The title "Queen of Heaven" for Mary IS a big whoop.
You don't want to see it but this shows & also proves where this entire concept of venerating Mary stemmed from. It should be a giagantic red flag warning & cause for research into the truth of the matter.
Some day we are all going to have to answer to Jesus. What has been more important to us in our lives.
Following His word in the Bible or remaining comfortable in our "religions?" Traditions & doctrines made up by man.
The bottom line of what we are ALL being tested on is if we love the TRUTH. His word is Truth.
Do we love Him more than the doctrines of demons & traditions of man?
Are we willing to let go of things which contradict His word? Even if it rips our hearts out because we are so attached to it?
I know. I've been there. I went through it.
We are in extremely dangerous times right now & it's going to take abiding in Christ & a love of the truth in order not to be swept away by deceptive teachings.
I just found out that a NIV Bible aimed at teenagers has changed every quote of "Lord Jesus" to "Master Jesus." Who cares? It just so happens that the New Age followers use the "Ascended Masters" title. So the bridge between the two is built.
The bridge between the RCC and the New World Order is also being built. All the religions will come together because "we all worship the same God." The white lines of truth will slowly fade into grey as the blackness of deception is mixed in.
And it's not just the RCC-Look at the Protestants/Evengelicals. Most of them are moving full steam ahead into this.
There is no one on this planet who is not affected.
Who is willing to swim against the socio,political,economic,religious current @ all costs?
How much do you love Him?
Donna, Shalom! Yeah, I'd say you're jumping the gun. To say that "...Mary is NOT the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus, the Son of God." is to go very close to (if not fall in the pit of) Nestorianism, which was condemned by the Council of Ephesus in 431AD. To say that Mary is simply the mother of Christ means that Jesus was not divine from the moment of His conception, but was totally and ONLY human, who later became "infused" with or partook of an "indwelling" of G_D's divinity. It means that the title "Son of G_D" must be viewed as a strictly symbolic title as in the New Age teaching that "We're all sons and daughters of God, man."
If you believe that Jesus is the physical and biological Son of G_D, that He is both True G_D and True Man, then His divinity was imparted to Him at conception; and thus Mary, having given birth to Jesus, also gave birth to G_D, making her the Mother of G_D.
<><
I'll chime in on the whole Mary thing just once
1-I suspect the whole Mary as the ark thing is peculiar to the RCC and maybe the Anglicans but that's about it and I don't see it and would consider that perhaps this tradition is trying to make scripture say what it doesn't or draw allegories that aren't there.
2-Lisa is right-it does matter about the whole Mary as Queen of heaven thing. LaHaye wrote a book about something on the end times and also touched on this subject. His comment was that the early church was SOOO effective at winning the war against satan, that satan felt he had to do something to stop the forward impetus because he satan was waaay behind in this war. The first thing was to stop the persecution and make Christianity the official religion of the empire and LaHaye feels the second thing that satan did was to introduce pagan elements or thought into the mix to dilute correct doctrine and LaHaye feels that ONE of the things introduced was this idea of Queen of Heaven (which whether you like it or not IS clearly pagan in origin) so that people would then also link Christ's death and Resurrection to the old pagan tales as well and over elevating Mary above where she should be elevated. Jim C there are a number of people who do point to this whole concept pf Mary Queen of Heaven from the RCC and therefore also do link Christ to the old tales as well and say -see it isn't any different than the old pagan myths it's just a different reworking of them, no more meaningful than they. just like the gilgamesh tale of the flood.
Jim G
fancy that-it was from Saddleback. go figure. my comments still stand and I would also note that the bible places significant value on sound doctrine-
1 tim 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
2 Tim 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
titus 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Mac
toooo funny.
Jim G.,
It's the same ole thing with Rick Warren.(BTW-my guess what that it was from RW.)
A little leaven ruins the entire loaf. Eventually the little leaven (false teaching or mindset) will grow into a monster.
Satan does not want to be obvious to Christians. So he starts in with just a little sprinkling here and there. Just enough so it's not noticeable.
That's how I feel about Rick Warren. He has an agenda and is on track w/the "world peace". His P.E.A.C.E.scenario. Coincidently who else is on track w/the "world peace" scenario-the RCC.(and many others)
Who are we suppose to be looking out for? The Anti-Christ & false christs & teachers. What does the Anti-Christ promote? World Peace.
What is the spirit behind those who promote "world peace"? The spirit of the "Anti-Christ."
Take a look @ what his critics say about him. Chuck Smith thinks it's bad enough that he has requested all Calvary Chapel affiliates to remove themselves from Calvary if they support Rick Warren.
Again-it’s are you going to love the truth or are you willing to go with a mixture?
Are you going to be discerning or are you going to go w/the flow because it sounds pretty good. The man loves God so how can he steer us wrong?
Honestly I don't trust myself. What did my own mind reasoning get me? It got me down the road following JW's. Aren't they pretty obvious as teaching false doctrine?
If I don't compare what the scripture teaches to what some preacher is proclaiming then off course I'll go again. If I get far enough down that road the drop off point is Hell.
So their doctrine is OK. Salvation is not compromised-yet? Do I really want to remain there because I'm so smart and discerning that when something serious happens I'll be able to spot it?
2 Cor 10:3-6 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fullfilled."
I think Jesus knows us pretty well since we were created by Him."Every thought"-not just 95 % of them-should be brought into capativity in obedience of Christ.
Are the teachings of Rick Warren & all his thoughts taken captive by Christ? Or have some of them been taken captive by fleshly worldy views? Good question? That is what we need to find out.
When it comes to the wiles of the Devil-unless we love the truth and abide in Him-we're really just a bunch of dumb sheep w/wolves in training at every corner.
We are end the end times.Are we suppose to go w/the flow and be loved by the world?
Luke 21:17,18 " And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But not a hair on your head shall be lost. By you patience possess your souls."
Who is hated today? Anyone who preaches the full gospel of the name of Christ revealed in the Bible. The people who don't compromise. The people who wear white & don't soil it with the grey thinking of Political Correctness.
(Am I turning into Martin Luther King or what? I'm serious but I have to laugh at myself-this is getting me all riled up.)
Jim, I don't know what you've already checked on Warren but this is an overview of why Chuck Smith has ousted him which I agree with.
JIM C.
Quite to the contrary, written texts of the New Testament have been preserved. Those written texts have been diligently preserved much like the Dead Sea Scrolls and verbal replay was not done by flippancy. As far as Mary being the Mother of Jesus, the WORD OF GOD tells us that, time and time again. But to argue that Mary is the Mother of God when the SCRIPTURES tell us that "God so loved the world that he gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON!, that whosoever believeth on him (JESUS)should not perish but have everlasting life." God's Word became Flesh and dwelled on earth with us.
Jim I can see where this subject is only going to take us to the flame pits and it isn't that I am afraid of the flame pits but we have a far more important purpose to pursue. We (you and I and others here) know what and whom we have believed and why, but there are many, many others who are searching for salvation and this conversation is going no where fast. I don't believe the scriptures left anything out regarding Mary, Jesus, God's parentage or for that matter, anything that pertains to salvation and relationship with God.
I am still of the firm position that is all Scripture based and no matter how much I would love to know the details of it all, I refuse to fill in the blanks with man's traditions and inventive theory. I also don't believe in Snow White and the Seven Snurfs either. Just as I do not believe in Obama's ability to bring change to a nation that prefers life the way it is and not for what it can be.
I love your soul Jim and I cherish your friendship but I just cannot buy into the current topic. I think you are a fantastic person and of great wit and certainly, very capable. Beyond anything, I don't want to hurt you in any manner and if I have, please forgive me.
Love you in Christ,
Grany
Jim C.
God has no beginning nor end. Mary is not the mother of God in the sense the RCC would like to uphold.
Are you going to tell me Mary existed before time and birthed God? Father/Son/Holy Spirit?
"To say that Mary is simply the mother of Christ means that Jesus was not divine from the moment of His conception, but was totally and ONLY human, who later became "infused" with or partook of an "indwelling" of G_D's divinity."
Why does it have to mean that? These are purely false presumptions to uphold the veneration of Mary.
We don't know all the mysteries of God or exactly how it worked when Jesus "the King of Kings & Lord of Lords" gave up His heavenly abode- turned into a DNA molecule and was birthed by Mary.
We can still believe he is fully human and fully divine by His word.The Bible tells us His attributes, He was birthed by Mary & that's about it.
I don't need to go try to "figure out" how this was done. If He wanted us to know right now it would be in the Bible.
It's by faith we believe what is in the word of God. Not because we have all the answers.
Let me say, that I appreciate the cave, because it allows discussion like this topic. It allows other views, and the right to discuss them. It's a healthy thing, IMHO.
Doctrine is important. I agree. But Jesus wanted us to walk in love, as well. In Gal.5:22, love is the first fruit of the recreated human spirit. And when topics are addressed in love, it's healthy and beneficial for everyone concerned. Certainly better than people not responding, out of fear, rejection or whatever concerns they may be experiencing.
Just my two cents worth, as I've also been on the other end of a discussion. One that is censored, and never takes place, because one person's views are held as never to be challenged.
Have a good day, and God bless everyone. And may God's love rule the day, too :)
Grany, Shalom! Yes, the writings of the New Testament have been preserved. FROM THE TIME THEY WERE WRITTEN! Generally, the time period for the Gospels appears to be between 70AD and 95AD (although I've seen some arguments for as early as 50AD.) That means there was almost an entire generation between the time Jesus died and the time his words and actions were written down. How, then, was the faith transmitted during these 30-odd years?
As for "Mary, Mother of God", I can only reiterate that the charge that Mary was only the mother of Jesus and not the mother of God was one of the arguments used by the Nestorians to deny the constant and eternal divinity of Christ. It is through His human birth through His human mother that Jesus, second person of the Holy Trinity, entered time. If Jesus was God (in the 2nd person) throughout His life, from conception through to death, then in fact Mary gave birth to God and is therefore the Mother of God.
And as for "tradition diverts and perverts," is a tradition that existed from the early days of the Church and passed down through the ages unchanged but wasn't explicitly written about in Scripture still a perversion? By that, I mean something that was taught by the apostles but was not written in Scripture?
<><
Interesting to know about the Nestorians but that's not what most of us believe.
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth,"Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses,"I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."
Micah 5:2 " But you, Bethlehem, Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose going forth are from of old, From everlasting." (Speaking of Jesus)
Since Jesus was not "created" (Which the JW's do teach) but always existed as God He is already Divine. Jesus birth process through Mary passed on the humanity.
So He is still Fully Divine and Fully Human.
The Bible does say Mary was the Mother of Jesus or Jesus' Mother.
(Acts 1:14,Luke 8:19,Mark 3:31)
But she can't be the mother of God as He was not created but always exisited.Jesus is God who became man.
John 1:1-4,14. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made;without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."
While it is true that Mary gave birth to God the Son, she did NOT give birth to God the Father.
Period.
This conversation could probably going round and round and round in circles, which is probably not all that useful.
I do, however, also wholeheartedly agree with Marge that we ought to be able to communicate about these things in love, as they are important.
This Article is a good overview how I also see things shaping up into a unified global religion. Having this view results in my cause for alarm when discussing RCC & Warren topics. (The only thing missing-probably premature-is a little UFO wierdness activity!)
I was linked to this picture yesterday. Aleister Crowley drew a figure of something he had contact w/in the sprirt realm. No suprise to me what it looks like.
Nate, thanks for posting that. I had seen it before, but it never fails to bring a tear to my eye. I need to be reminded!
Marge, as far as I'm concerned, there's no topic censored at the cave - not the rapture or tongues or whatever - well, maybe leave out the olympics (yawn). As long as we respect each other and balance it out.
Speaking of discussion topics -we haven't talked about food in a long while. I have this enormous craving for cheesecake. Wonder what that means?
Hmmm....mutter...mutter.
I would think it means you want some cheesecake :)
BTW, anyone know where Alesia's been?
Yes...Nate that was excellent...I'd never seen that before. Thank you so much.
Mac could likely fill us in on what's up with Alesia right MAc?
has anyone heard from Kathy?
btw I make the world's best chocolate cheesecake.
Marge
I totally agree.
Alesia has been extremely busy the last two weeks and her DSL has been down at home. Read catastrophes! Speaking to her right now. She says hi and she misses everyone.
Where you be, Kathy?
Poland 'won't be intimidated over missiles
Iranian missile test failed - US
Report: Iran to build more nuclear power plants
Russia hits back at Nato warning
Rice: Russia May Be Attempting to Rebuild Soviet Union
EU-Russia 'business as usual' impossible, Lithuania says
Russia says it can't support UN resolution calling for ceasefire compliance
Russia starts Georgia pullout, West urges speed
Russia weighs increasing military aid to Arab world
Army Moves Ahead With Mobile Laser Cannon
India okays arms deal with Israel worth over $1.5 billion
Jordan, China sign nuclear cooperation pact "Earlier this year, the Jordanian government concluded similar agreements with Canada, France and Britain.......Jordan and other Arab countries have focused attention over the past two years on building their own nuclear capabilities after Iran went ahead in its drive to possess advanced nuclear know-how"
Official: Yemen detains 9 people for converting
A 2,600-year-old clay seal uncovered intact in Jerusalem dig
interesting set of articles Lori
I was having withdrawal!
about that Rice article=I think somebody needs to go "duh" to Rice. hello, Putin has been saying for years he wants to rebuild the soviet empire. where has she been?
Prophecy Theory Surprise
Hi all;
In the "mother of God debate", in scripture Mary is never called this. I think there is a reason for this. She is the earthly mother of Jesus and nothing else. If it is not in the scriptures then what is the need for the debate? Just my view of it.
lisa;
Very good post @8:41 about the need to stay within the bounds of Biblical doctrine. The work of the Church is to make disciples not to follow some global P.E.A.C.E. plan.
God bless.
Maranatha
Jim C. you'll like this one.
The DNA test results on "BIGFOOT"
See you all late Sunday -going to So.Cal tomorrow.
Mr. Hyde,
I agree with Donna, you just need to wrap your lips around a big slice of cheese cake and JIB's chocolate one sounds good enough for me. Now a wonderful cup of Columbian Coffee made from fresh ground coffee beans, and allowed to mellow for a few minutes would just top it off. Might want to get a little creamer for Mr. Carroll but I'll take mine black and steaming.
IN fact, I think I will make a pot right now and spend the night reading.
MAC, thank you for the links and NATE, I am glad you warned us to have our kleenex's handy.
LORI, twinkle toes I have been praying for you and yours during Fay. I was considering a call but then I happened on here and there you were with your wonderful posts for all of us. I agree with JIB about Condi, Duh! Maybe if she spent less time trying to sell Israel down the road to the PLO she could keep track of the little Russian.
What do all of you think of Condi being a running mate with Osa-I mean Obama? That would make it a bi-partisan presidency and he is all about change! Would that be change enough for him?
Mac, please tell Alesia that while she is away, the mice will play!
Good nite all,
Grany
Grany,
The coffee sounds great! But I'm with Jim C. I'd need some creamer in my coffee :)
Don't stay up too late reading. And remember to leave a light on in the window!
Mac,
Thanks. I've always appreciated the opportunity for debate, or at least a good discussion.
God bless, and keep smiling!!!
With all the doom and gloom going on in this world, I feel it is important that we focus on what is really important in life.
Mr. Hyde,
Hon, you need some good home cooking and if I knew your address I would take the time and send you mine homemade cheesecake that has won several blue ribbons in my life time. Cover it over with some wonderful fresh berries or any good fruit and smack down on it real gentle and savor the most delicious, smooth, creamy delight your mouth could ever hope to taste. I mean it is good but I would love to try JIB's chocolate one.
I agree though, we need to be looking up for I think I can hear the faint sound of His footsteps heading our way.
Love you all and Goodnight!
Grany
3 pounds of cream cheese, 7 eggs, half and half, 1 large package of semisweet bits, covered with chantilly cream, pecans and more chocolate bits....I've caught people licking the plate clean.
joel has a new post up btw
Jib and Grany; don't tempt Hyde. He'll end up looking like Homer Simpson. "Ahhhhhhhh cheesecake."
China's Bible Problem
Jib, I gained three pounds reading your post at 10:21!
Here is an interesting news item;
Evangelist Bentley stepping down
Allie Martin - OneNewsNow - 8/19/2008 11:05:00 AM
Todd Bentley will step down as head of Fresh Fire Ministries, after the ministry revealed he had an "unhealthy relationship" with a female staffer. That announcement comes one week after Bentley's ministry announced he and his wife were separating.
The announcement from the board of directors acknowledged that Bentley had an "unhealthy relationship" on an emotional level with the female staff member. Bentley is best known for leading a series of public meetings in Florida since April that have attracted around 300,000 people to churches and a baseball stadium.
The Canadian evangelist will also cease all public meetings, including a 38-city stadium tour of U.S. cities.
In a recent article in Charisma magazine on the meetings, editor Lee Grady said many of those who defended Bentley displayed a "lack of discernment," in part because of a "raw zeal for God."
Grady also pointed out that Bentley had serious credibility issues from the beginning of the meetings, claiming to have talked to an angel in his hotel room, and bragging about tackling a man and knocking his tooth out during prayer.
"Many of us would rather watch a noisy demonstration of miracles, signs, and wonders than have a quiet Bible study," the Christian journalist wrote. "Our adolescent craving for the wild and crazy makes us do stupid things. It's way past time for us to grow up."
Grady also criticized GodTV for telling people that any criticism of Bentley was "demonic." GodTV carried the Lakeland meetings live every night.
Maranatha!
Ancient Bible to be Reconstructed Online
New Indian Bible draws Fire over Hindu References(A prime example of mixing truth w/error.*Notice how it "sold out.")
I just spent a couple of days with one of my childhood friends and her husband and son (They happen to be jewish) and the topic of politics came up and of course I started spouting off about Iran and how dangerous I think they are due to their presidents beliefs that he is to usher in their 12th Iman, etc, etc.
Funny, most people are not aware of this.
This husband is a recently retired proff from the national defense university in DC and did not appear to be aware of this.
But folks in general DO seem to be aware of the many end time type things that appear to be coming together...Mayan calendar stuff, Nostradomis (sp?), etc. and even a bit of biblical end times stuff too.
Their son was reading a book that had to do with demons and wizards, etc....ugh!
Please keep them in your prayers...I would love to see them in heaven! :)
so at some point in my busy day we are likely to change over to a new post. oh well.
interesting article about Bentley-go figure, and unsurprising. I agree with the point about noise and quiet Bible study also.
Donna
just don't understand how anyone could be so unaware. perhaps you should give them a copy of epicenter!
yes the cheesecake is rather rich I must say. I've made it so often though that I rarely ever eat it when I do make it.
Mac, feed that poor man some cheesecake. I'll see if I can get a good cheap flight to Melbourne and we will take care of him.
OH JIB, I am having a hard time just sitting here reading! I want chocolate, I need chocolate but my pants won't tolerate any more chocolate! If I do they will go past comfortable.
Now, as regards the Bentley thing, we need to keep him in our prayers big time. Think of the people he has touched with all of this and consider the repercussions this is going to have on all of them. Another fallen one isn't good news for the Kingdom of God. No matter what we thought and no matter what he did, God still desires our salvation and that until the very end. So, let's all pray for him and all of the others that out of this darkness God will show his LIGHT and Jesus Christ will be glorified.
As for me, I love the quiet, peaceful study and discussion of GOD'S WORD! I know I might get a little stubborn at times about it but if it isn't in God's word, I have no time for it. I appreciate the wisdom and insight God has given to other's in their faithful service to him but I refuse to be diverted from what "thus saith the word of God" by anyone, anything, or for any other reason. It has been a very painful lesson for me but it has been implanted firmly in me by the Lover of my Soul and for that I am eternally grateful.
Love you all,
Grany
OK, Here is mine:
Citrus Cheesecake by Golly
Makes 12 large servings
CRUST
1 C. sifted flour
1/4 C. Sugar
1 tsp. Lemon zest
1/2 tsp. Vanilla extract
1 Egg Yolk
1/4 C. softened butter
FILLING
5 ( 8 oz.) pkgs. cream cheese -- softened
1 3/4 C. Sugar
3 Tbsp. Flour
1 1/2 tsp. Lemon zest
1 1/2 tsp. Orange zest
1/4 tsp. Vanilla extract
5 Eggs
2 Egg yokes
1/4 C. Heavy cream
METHOD
FOR CRUST: In a medium bowl, combine flour, sugar, lemon zest and vanilla. make a well in the center and add egg yolk and butter. Mix until dough pulls away, and cleans, sides of bowl. Remove from bowl, form into a ball, wrap in waxed paper and refrigerate for 1 hour.
Preheat oven to 400 degrees and grease the bottom and sides of a 9 inch spring form pan. Remove side from pan and set aside.
Roll 1/3 of the dough to fit the bottom of the spring form pan, place in the oven and bake until golden, about 8 - 10 minutes. Remove and set aside.
Divide the remaining dough into 3 parts and roll into strips 2 1/2 inches wide and 10 inches long. Put spring form back together, leaving baked crust in pan. Fit dough strips to side of pan, joining ends to line pan completely. Trim dough so it comes only 3/4 up the side of the pan. Refrigerate while making filling.
FILLING: In a large mixer bowl combine cream cheese, sugar, flour, lemon zest, orange zest and vanilla. Beat, at high speed, until just blended. Reduce to medium speed and add eggs, and yolks, one at a time. Add cream, beating until just combined. Transfer mixture into spring form pan.
Bake 10 minutes, at 400 degrees, reduce heat to 250 degrees and bake 50 minutes longer. Check the cake after 20 minutes at 250 degrees and make sure the cake is still fairly soft in center. Recheck every 10 minutes. DON'T OVER BAKE! Remove from oven and let cheesecake cool completely on a wire rack still in the pan. Refrigerate 3 hours to overnight (better) before removing from pan and serving.
I love to decorate this cake with a couple of slices of candied orange slices (not the candy one) and at least one lemon candied slice. Then a sprig of Mint to finish it off.
Grany
Won't promise you won't gain weight but you will have a ball doing it.
GT,
The Todd Bentley article wasn't surprising.
Thanks!
I agree with Great Grany 5. Let's pray for the man.
Lee Grady has been on top of this revival all along. His point about people wanting to see the "spectacular" (noise, miracles) is excellent, IMHO.
Kinda like the crowds that followed Jesus for the loaves and the fish. However, God can move in just about any circumstance. So, let's continue to pray for people to be saved, healed and delivered. And for God to heal our land. (and the entire world!)
Be blessed, and have a great day!
Prayer request,
(BTW, Grany, I completely agree with your comments about praying for Bently.)
My sister badly needs prayer. 58 years old, alone in life, and now just fired (yes, fired, not laid off) from her job. Very limited education and training. Behind on house payments. Other problems which I would rather not specify, for her sake, but God knows. She is a believer, but I think she has a "why me" attitude. Call her "C". I told her I planned to ask for prayer but that I would try to speak of her in "generic" terms.
Lisa, Shalom! I checked out the article you linked to about the "New Indian Bible draws Fire over Hindu References" and then did some research of my own. As usual, the problem is both more simple and more complex than the article described.
For one thing, the article makes it sound like this bible mixes Scripture with quotes from Hindu scripture or takes major liberties with the translation. This is not the case. You can find an example of how the Bible looks here. The top half of the page is Scripture, the bottom half is commentary. It is the commentary that is causing the problems. It is the commentary that quotes traditional Indian literaray sources in an attempt to explain Christian concepts. It is like St. Paul debating the Greeks using references to Greek literature to make his points, rather than to Hebrew Scripture, which they would not be familiar with.
As for the picture depicting Joseph and Mary as Indian peasants, what's wrong with that? Hundreds of years of sacred art have had people making Jesus, the Holy Family, the Apostles, etc. all resemble the people living where the art was created. One of my dad's favorite souvenirs that he brought back from being stationed in Tokyo was a nativity set where all the people from the shepherds to the Magi to the Christ Child all had Japanese features. It's a way of showing that Christianity is for all people, not just northern European white people. (Unless you truly believe that Jesus had light skin, light brown or blonde hair, and blue eyes.)
Having said that, it does appear that there are major flaws in the commentary. For more info on that, I'll refer you to Ephesians 5:11, an Indian Roman Catholic ministry that works against New Age beliefs. Their motto is Metamorphose -- A Catholic Ministry for Exposing the Truth about Alternative Medicine, the Occult in Reiki & Pranic Healing and Oriental Spiritual Exercises of the New Age Movement. (Be advised: many of their links point to Word documents.) In addition, the work has drawn criticism from various Hindu leaders: "The move is welcome, but it remains to be seen if it's just another attempt to use Indian symbols to spread Christianity. In areas like north India where the roots of culture run deep, missionaries have often found it difficult to reach out to the masses with their philosophy," says Jaya Prasad, a professor at the Sri Narayana college, Kollam and office bearer of Bharatiya Vichara Kendram.
The comments by Hindu leaders must be considered in light of two things: the many Hindu subdivisions (what some consider to be holy scripture is considered by others to be literature, and vice versa) and the growing violence by Hindu mobs in North India against Christians. Since last Christmas over 1000 churches, rectories, convents, orphanages, and houses of Christians have been burned down and dozens of people killed by fundamentalist Hindus, most recently, an Indian Roman Catholic priest who was tortured, killed, and left by the side of the road this weekend.
Like I said, the situation is both simpler and more complex than the original article would leave you to believe. If you want to learn more about the persecution of Christians in northern India, click on this link.
<><
I absolutely agree 100% with you grany, marge and others that we should pray for the whole situation and every one that was involved in it as well as Todd Bentley. You are absolutely right grany, that anyone who falls is not good for the Kingdom of God, even if they were not discerning in what they were following. Good can come out of it if people are learning to be discerning and are drawn closer to God and His Word.
Maranatha!
Thanks for the shout outs.
I've had a brutal last few weeks,
it's been one catastrophe after another.
Starting with the death of my 18 yr old cat - devastating!
My car broke down, work server crashed, work computer's motherboard fried, home internet down from squirrels chewing on wires. I could go on but am getting depressed! ha, ha.
Now Grany, we may have to duke it out over the best cheescake award! I've been told I make the best cheesecake in all the world.
I'll let JIB keep the "chocolate" cheescake award, as mine's not chocolate!
Shoot, I forgot to say...
New post is up as well.
ha can hardly wait to try that recipe
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