That's why we are not discouraged. No, even if our outer man is wearing out, our inner man is being renewed day by day.
This light, temporary nature of our suffering is producing for us
an eternal weight of glory, far beyond any comparison,
because we do not look for things that can be seen but for things that cannot be seen.
For things that can be seen are temporary, but things that cannot be seen are eternal.
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152 comments:
I will be first and for a change I won't need to catch up! Hope all is well with my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
I think The Lord is giving the USA a wake up call and I pray that people will listen before it is too late.
G_d Bless
jeri
Good post Hyde.
(nag)
Unbelieveable!
I never heard this....
Irena Sendler -VS- Al Gore
Hearing His voice
As our Good Shepherd, Jesus promises that we can hear and know His voice. This does not, however, have to be some mysterious, mystical process. In fact, you may be surprised to learn that God speaks to you quite often. I would venture to say He has spoken to you lately and may be speaking to you right now in some way.
God speaks to us through His Word. God will never lead us contrary to His written Word. It is our litmus test, our bedrock, our absolute.
God speaks to us through circumstances. Those circumstances can include failure. Jonah certainly heard God through his mistake. God may even speak to us through tragedy or hardship. C. S. Lewis wrote that, "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains. It is His megaphone to arouse a deaf world."
God speaks to us through His peace. When we live in God's will, we enjoy His peace.
And once we have heard God's voice, what should we do? We must follow. Jesus calls, we respond. He whispers, we move. We follow—and then we keep on listening.
Irena sure sounded like an awesome lady! I'd never heard of her before either.
Hopefully she will get more recognition...she sure save a lot of young Jewish lives.
Great post and comments!
Sorry for monopolizing, but here's another good one...
How can hope for the future help me live today?
What we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, everything on earth was subjected to God's curse. All creation anticipates the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from pain and suffering. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children, including the new bodies he has promised us. Now that we are saved, we eagerly look forward to this freedom. For if you already have something, you don't need to hope for it. But if we look forward to something we don't have yet, we must wait patiently and confidently.
Romans 8:18-25 NLT
"Everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or property, for my sake, will receive a hundred times as much in return and will have eternal life."
Matthew 19:29 NLT
Facing trials
We have strength and courage to face the trials of this life because we can look beyond them to the glory that God has in store for us. We know the sacrifices we make now will be rewarded by God.
NO need to apologize about monopolizing!
These are the kinds of posts we (at least me) need to hear!
:)
Alesia, Shalom! Not to be cynical or anything, but how could a woman who saved the lives of a few Jews expect to compete for global acclaim against someone of such stature who is banging the drum of the Next Big Thing?
On a not-so-cynical note, I believe the State of Israel declared her to be a Righteous Gentile.
<><
Oh dear!
Really need to work on that gag reflex.
;-)
Alesia,
I just read John MacArthur's commentary on Roman's eight this past weekend. He says "nature's destiny is inseparably linked to man's. Because man sinned, the rest of creation was corrupted with him. Likewise, when man's glory is divinely restored, the natural world will be restored as well."
We know the world is going to be made new someday but we don't really get the details in Scripture of how God will accomplish that. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones wrote about how he wonders "whether the phenomenon of Spring supplies us with a part answer. Nature every year, as it were, makes an effort to renew itself, to produce something permanent. It has come out of death and the darkness of all that is so true of Winter. In the Spring it seems to be trying to produce a perfect creation, to be going through some kind of birth-pangs year by year. It doesn't succeed, for Spring leads to Summer, Summer to Autumn, and Autumn to Winter."
I personally love the seasons. Growing up in So Cal all I saw was "smoggy" and "smoggier". It has gotten better however! Here in the NW you definitely see more of a seasonal change and I love it. A fresh snowfall to me in the middle of winter is beautiful. The Lord uses it to remind me of my sin and His wonderful gift of salvation. There is deadness underneath what snow blankets. The deadness is a picture of my condition before salvation. Snow covering that deadness reminds me of how Christ's righteousness covers me and makes me positionally pure and clean!
In the meantime, we are "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body", at which point we will be forever practically pure and clean!
Joel has a new post.
Olmert announced his resignation to be effective Sept 17th.
Links, girl! Links!!
<><
Got the links here:
Israeli PM to resign, won't run in party primary
<><
Jim... Links? We don't need no stinkin links!
Olmert: I'll quit as PM when Kadima picks new leader
Olmert Ready to Give Away Golan in Exchange for Direct Talks
Poll: Netanyahu is public's preferred choice for next PM
Syria and Israel end 4th round of indirect talks, more set for Aug
Report: Obama 'gets the feeling' Israel to strike Iran if sanctions fail
Barak: U.S. to provide Israel with defense systems against Iran strike
Mt. Zion Gate Dedicated Again - on 468th Birthday
Chabad Temple seminar rankles Islamists
US still expecting M.E. peace before end of 2008
3,000 Blank British Passports Stolen with Delivery Van
Ugh, Jim, I was quoting a section of Blazing Saddles... just in case you were wondering.
although, it wasn't links, it was badges.
Well, this should be interesting!
I wonder if 'Bibi' Nentanyahu will be Israel's next Prime Minister.
I hope he does for their sake!
Yeah and isn't he an acquaintance of Joel Rosenberg? I'm sure I remember Joel mentioning meeting with him a few times.
Thanks for the stinkin links!!
:)
Yes, he writes about him in his book "Epicenter" (which is the only book of Joel's I have read to date).
They met when Joel was working in DC several years ago. I think Joel may have been and advisor for him at one point in time, but I'm not sure.
If he's had any real communication with Joel, I'm sure Joel wouldv'e informed him of what may come....
You know, that makes me wonder if he has had the opportunities and shared the information... how seriously the foreign leaders take the information.
... and how the information influences their decisions, if at all.
Lori, you is right twinkle toes! Bebe is a friend and former employer of Joel C. and I am expecting greater things from Bebe than he ever thought of doing before. I am praying that the Lord just give him an extra dose of courage coupled with an iron strength backbone to stand up to the likes of the USA State Department and tell them, Sail Away and leave us to run our own country. Or something to similar to that.
I have often wondered what our State Department and Department of Defense would do if Mexico demanded the land back that the USA acquired about 200 years ago or less? Do you suppose they would tolerate Canada, Britian, France, Germany or Russia coming in and demanding back the territory that they once occupied or claimed in the New Country? How about our Native Americans going to Washington and demanding all of the this nation be returned to them? Then you have another situation in that the Muslims here in the USA demanding land be given to them because they have outgrown their own countries that they came from.
Can't say that it can't happen but I am sure we would be singing a different story than what Condi has been demanding and warbling in Israel during her term of appointment as Secretary of State.
When i was in Israel in the early 90's, the first Bush administration was sending Jim Baker to dictate foreign policy to them. There were huge signs all over Jerusalem with some very good advice for Baker and Company. "Go Home! We don't need your dictates!" Somewhere in my photos I have those pictures and I don't blame them one little bit. Can you imagine what the next administration is going to be demanding of Israel! Ugly, ugly, ugly!
All of this while we sit around and shot the breeze. In case you are wondering what I am so upset about; the last time BeBe was PM of Israel, the USA coaxed him to make some pretty stupid decisions and BeBe got left holding the bag and then Slick Willy sent his buddy James Carville to help BeBe's opponent win the election for PM. BeBe was out and a very weak and misguided man,Ehud Barak who managed to stay in office from 1999 to 2001.
Never has so much been demanded from so few and never have so many people paid such a dear cost for their government leaders stupidity.
Now I can stop venting. At least for a little while.
Grany
Hey Dance teacher!
I hope you're doing great tonight. Thanks for chiming in on the topic. I think you were on Joel's site a bit longer than myself. I started on his site around March/April of 2007.
I hope Bebe gets the vote... that would be really interesting.
I wonder if there are posters up in Israel everytime Rice and Bush show up?
Good article from AIG on the Trinity.
The Trinity
Well said, Grany!
Jeri; good to hear from you and my prayers are with you.
Alesia; I agree about Hyde.
This is an article from November of last year. I just found it. It's extremely interesting considering the topic. It involves the next Israeli election and the billionare who plans to push Bebe into p.m. spot.
Israel's rising right wing
Oh, and thanks for those "stinkin" links, Lori.
He announced that he would back Netanyahu's bid to regain office, declaring, "Any politician that I will support will be the prime minister."
time to go nighty-nite... see y'all tomorrow
You go, Grany!
Lori, Shalom! "Blazing Saddles"? That's a new one to me. I was thinking "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" (1948, Humphrey Bogart, Walter Huston, and Tim Holt; directed by John Huston). According to IMDB, the full quote is by a character known as "Gold Hat": Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
<><
actually the last time I heard
Joel speak he noted that he was actually hired by Bibi to be a political consultant adviser and work on his campaign for re-election and then things fell through.
about that bubble-not so sure about that although it might be nice. my son steps on that foot or causes my to full weight beat on that foot several times a week so the bubble might keep that from happening.
nice main post
great links
Alesia great secondary entries
Jeri
while we might be getting a wake up call don't count on it doing any good. We have had some freaky weather lately. I grew up in Maine and don't ever remember tornadoes at all but they had sightings and such of 3 in the month of July, an unseasonal hurricane in Texas causing damage and an earthquake in an area that hasn't had one in awhile in California-kind of makes you wonder what might be up.
as I noted to someone else recently-each generation feels that their generation is the worst that ever lived and I think the current world climate as far as morality goes is the worst. I mean if we are not currently living in the worst morality can you imagine how bad it could get?
What's wrong with science as religion
Could we be sure, for example, that this new scientific religion would not give rise to the extremism and aberrant behavior that plague conventional religions? Would concern for the diversity of life, for example, inspire vegetarians to blow up slaughterhouses, and run the local butcher through his or her own meat grinder? Would reverence for the cosmos reinvigorate astrology? Would appreciation for natural selection bring eugenics back out of the closet? In other words, if science dismantles the traditional religious content that people use to satisfy their impulses -- many of which are quite passionate -- will we really be better off?
There is also no compelling way to get ethical directives from science. To be sure, religion has a version of the same problem, but that simply points up the challenges they both face, not the superiority of science over religion. Even Stephen Jay Gould, the peacemaking agnostic, suggested that religion should make the ethical calls.
Jim Carroll,
Can you send me an email, so that I can send you an email?
I have to tell/ask you something.
Thanks,
Joel has updated yesterday's post with more analysis about the Olmert announcement.
If this was already posted by someone, I apologize.
Something else to watch.
THE KEYS TO LIVING A CHRISTIAN LIFE:
DRINK, STEAL, SWEAR, AND LIE!
DRINK from the 'everlasting cup' every day.
STEAL a moment to help someone that is in worse shape than you are.
SWEAR that you will be a better person today than yesterday.
And last, but not least, when you LIE down at night thank God you live in America and have freedom.
I am not as good as I should be, I am not as good as I could be -- but THANK GOD I am better than I used to be!
<><
Islamic Terror Breeds in Iran
Israel: PM's chief of staff resigns
The geography of Tisha Be'av
Pentagon makes fighting extremism its top priority
Hamas' Christian convert: I've left a society that sanctifies terror
Non-Aligned Nations Back Iran
Netanyahu calls for new national elections
Cute, Jim!
Nice to see your post, homeward bound!
As Nate mentioned the other day, tomorrow is the 1st of Av.
One of the interesting bits of information that Mark Biltz is helping to create awareness of (for those of you who have not had the chance to check some of his findings out) is:
On the 1st of Av for 3 years in a row, 2008, 2009 and 2010, there will be total solar eclipses.
* Aug. 1, 2008 (1st of Av)(5768)
* July 22, 2009 (1st of Av) (5769)
* July 11, 2010 (1st of Av) (5770)
He's come up with other interesting bits of info about eclipses, etc, that of course is controversial, but you can read an article about it at Bill Koenig's site
wow thats a pretty shocking article lori posted a link to 120 countries (non aligned countries) are backing Iran's nuclear program
This is an interesting year for the eclipes. On July 31 - Aug 1, 2008 there will be a complete solar eclipse Then 2 weeks later, a partial Lunar eclipse on August 16,2008A crescent Moon.
Then.... Ramadan September 1, 2008-Sept.30.
Islam is looking for the Mahdi.
Now remember the Mahdi will have rule for 7 years The next Solar eclipses will be in 2010, 2012 and2015
I just watched Walid Shoebat on Youtube, Prophecy; Satan and Islam. It was excellent. The moon is pretty important to Islam. It's weird that all this has come up in the last few days for me anyway. Yesterday I got this idea that perhaps all we need to do is look at the symbols on their flags for clues. Kind of a weird thought, huh?
Just a little something to think about.
donna, some how I over looked the 2009 total eclipse
Hi Lori,
Yeah, all of this solar and lunar eclipse stuff is really interesting.
I just wish I had more time to spend on this and everything else I am interested in looking into further!
Good to "see" you Homeward Bound! Thanks for the update.
I LOVE IT - Jim C.!
Thanks for the links Lori - very interesting it's getting.
Jib - you still at Disney or home yet? Pray the foot is holding up.
just got back. we had fun.
good to see Lori's links-very time saving for me so I don't surf the net so much :-)
Jim C
how very funny and cute
it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few days.
homeward bound-good to see you again
prayer request-
hubby's favorite aunt is having major lung surgery on monday AM very early EDT for lung cancer-biopsy was positive but it is very small and if no nodes are found will be stage 1. pray for Deb and her family. she has a couple of somewhat fragile daughters emotionally. hubby's mom is nearly in a tizzy. Jim C you will appreciate that Deb was catholic and is now involved with the Vineyard and hubby's mom very devout catholic although oddly enough (and you and I have discussed this in the remote past if you will remember) they are true believers.
interesting-didn't go through to my email. guess the system is messed up again
Holy cow! Rare red bovine sold for $1 million
1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron: 2 "This is a requirement of the law that the LORD has commanded: Tell the Israelites to bring you a red heifer without defect or blemish and that has never been under a yoke.
Numbers 19:1-2
Commentary by Hal Lindsey. The world seems to be ready…
How Obama prepped world for the Antichrist
Scientist Suspected in 2001 Anthrax Attacks Dead in Apparent Suicide
More aftershocks in China, one of which was a 6.1:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080801/wl_nm/china_quake_dc_1
A link to this article was on my homepage this morning. exerpt:
"BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The clock is ticking for Iran to respond to an offer by major powers on its nuclear program, but European diplomats say they are ready to wait a few more days beyond Saturday's informal deadline for an answer."
Why does this remind me of bad parenting? ;-)
Here is link, although I don't know how to make them blue and clickable:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080801/wl_nm/iran_nuclear_eu_dc_1
bad parenting-what a great analogy
Mac
interesting points that Lindsey makes except I don't necessarily think Obama is prepping the way unless he is the false prophet. I know most commentators feel that the AC must be Roman due to the prophecy about the people who destroyed the temple being the ones from whom the AC would come and since it was the Romans who came ergo he must be roman. I guess it comes down to how one interprets this as there is more than one way.
1- he must be an actual white male from Rome. I think this is the interpretation of not a few scholars. however when one considers that being a roman citizen was not restricted to white males from the city of Rome or even of just Italians in general, e.g. Paul was a roman citizen and he was a Jew from Turkey, that opens up the possibility of other nationalities. I don't think necessarily that just being born in roman occupied territory is sufficient for this since those in occupied territory were not considered "roman" legally. those who were had certain rights that others from the same area who weren't "roman" didn't have. If you remember one of the folks who had Paul arrested and in chains was accused of violating his civil rights as a Roman and the guy was afraid because it had not evidently occurred to him that Paul might be a citizen and deserving of different treatment.
2- maybe it was meant more literally than that in that he would be an actual descendant of one of the soldiers who torched the temple. Roman soldiers sometimes stayed where they were stationed even after retiring from the military or even after the fall of Rome. who knows where such a man would have ended up settling or where his descendants would migrate to.
so I don't necessarily think we should be looking for a white male from Rome. As Marge said once in a debate in this matter the prophecy about God calling Messiah out of Egypt had many puzzled until after the fact. I mean how could Messiah be Jewish and from Egypt at the same time. What God meant was that He would call Messiah out of Egypt and back to Israel when the time came, not that Messiah was Egyptian.
so because roman citizenship was clearly conferred on men of other than European descent and even if one considers that the prophecy was quite literally meant since roman soldiers moved around a lot I personally think that we could be looking for someone other than an Italian male. May be BHO isn't the AC, may be this is just Satan testing the waters so to speak to see if the world is ready for the real deal. Or may be we should be looking beyond the white male from Rome construct and consider someone such as BHO as a candidate.
on a side note and referring back to the links that Mac posted a while ago about having longer than we think for the tribulation time etc I offer this
Frucht also feels the AC must be a roman white male but what intrigues me is the way he interprets the time line of events happening before the tribulation. He feels that we will have a one world government before the tribulation, that the AC takes over a one world government already in place from out side the political structure of that time with a violent coup.
as opposed to what Lahaye and Lindsey have proposed that the AC makes the one world government. the former certainly would be quite in line with the timetable proposed by the links Mac posted. Consider the time involved from where we are now for a one world gov't to appear for someone to take over. (Or since a lot of governments in the world take their cues from the UN, world opinion and the international court are we more there than we think?)
I think the guy who did the time table that Mac posted and many in Christianity under estimate the effect that Gog/Magog will have on the world-major power or powers fallen and so a rather substantial number of people in chaos from a governmental point of view. Further the economies of the world in general appear to be teetering on a precipice (as an interesting aside someone proposed on Glenn Beck the other night that perhaps the US would be better off scraping our current monetary system and just starting over if inflation gets too bad an intriguing idea in view of the economic chaos which I think will ensue with both Gog/Magog and the Rapture)-what would such a battle do to the global economy I mean can you imagine the stock market chatter when so much of the world revolves around mid east oil. There appears to be a world wide earthquake with that battle-can you imagine the damage to the world infrastructure (I wonder if the huge embassy the US built in Iraq is earthquake proof?) both physical ,economic and emotional (look at the impact of the earthquake in China for physical and emotional and now make that world wide and then consider that this earthquake might just go off the Richter scale so that no one can deny the involvement of God). We had intact governments with Hurricane Katrina, the two tsunamis in the far east and look at what has happened to rebuilding the physical infrastructure even in the US. Because we have such nanny states and or totalitarian regimes all over the world people won't be capable of rebuilding themselves for a variety of reasons. And with a world wide earthquake what kind of tsunamis develop from those anyway? may be the damage won't just be from the earthquake as many have assumed perhaps there will be horrible tsunamis associated with it also. is that island in the Atlantic going to drop off and the resultant tsunami going to level the eastern seaboard (which is our political and economic center)?
Coupled with the physical, emotional and economic devastation that will occur when millions of people of all walks of life disappear-the sheer numbers of this alone ought to give some idea of the impact this could make on the global economy- and given the world's current apparent readiness to accept a world leader, I think it is entirely possible that a one world government could be set up more quickly than we would otherwise think. I think we grossly underestimate the impact of just Gog/Magog on society as a whole. It isn't just going to destroy those nations involved against Israel it will be so that ALL nations will know that God is still around and still cares about Israel in specific. There will be chaos on a scale that the world has never before seen. Consider just the idea of a global earthquake from an emotional perspective-when has that ever happened before and what will people be thinking.
just a random thought or two.
wish ATTY were around to comment on what he thinks the economic situation would be like with just the war of Gog/Magog never mind adding on top of that the Rapture. or even if the Rapture happens first the world could be brought to a teetering position and Gog/Magog could push it over the edge.
Elmert, Sharon's last bad choice
interesting snippet from the above article
"The Iran option (an interesting header to be sure)
What makes the dance of bigwigs so compelling is that this is the crew that must defend Israel from the decidedly cocky Tehran tyrants, who are – this is not a game – coming on swiftly. A source told me weeks ago that Tehran has communicated to Cairo, Damascus, Beirut, Riyadh and Baghdad that once the Americans are gone from the region, it is attacking Israel to finish it off.
so if BHO gets elected the US will be pulled out of the ME and we will be seen as being unable or unwilling to protect our interests abroad including Israel. interesting times we live in.
hellooo out thereeeee. there, there there
did you all see this ad on obama by the McCain campaign? apologies if someone else posted it.
TV AD
Jib, Shalom! Great ad! I had to go to the McCain web site to watch it -- even on YouTube it would stop about three-quarters of the way through -- but it was worth it. My favorite part was where Obama was talking about having the light come down "from somewhere", touching you, and telling to to vote for Obama! All I could think of was someone mounting little track lights above the voting booths, so when people closed the curtain, the light would come on "from somewhere", shining on them to help them vote!
<><
alesia,
That was a great story about Irena Sendler. I wish I had even half of her courage.
jib,
I was reading your thoughts on whether the AC will be a white Roman or Roman at all for that matter. I am doubtful.
I watched a video recently, I think it was maybe by Pastor Steve Hadley (I will have to confirm this later) that mentioned that the Roman Legions that destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. were legions 5, 10, 12, and 15. According to Steve, these particular legions were composed of peoples from nations that are now Islamic (Arab or African). They were, of course, more than anxious to destroy the temple when they got a chance. The story goes that Titus actually commanded his troops not to destroy the temple, but at least some of the troops ignored him and burned the temple anyways. This would make sense if these legions were indeed composed of Arab peoples.
So... the AC could actually come from a number of different nations including several Arab and/or Islamic nations.
As for the world government being in place before the Tribulation, I suspect that comes later.
I agree that Gog and Magog will probably play a huge part in bringing the world government about quickly. Whether we are raptured before, during, or after Gog and Magog, I have no idea.
David Lowe could be right about a huge earthquake taking place that devastates the earth during the rapture. Maybe the earthquake mentioned during Gog and Magog will devastate the earth or maybe it is the same earthquake as the rapture earthquake.
However, I have run these scenarios through my head dozens of times and though I believe these maybe huge factors in bringing the world government about, I believe there is much more that has to happen to explain the rapture removing millions of people from the planet.
A world wide catastrophe like an earthquake would explain millions of missing people, but no matter how devastating it is, it is still not going to explain millions of missing children. There will probably be areas, probably large areas that will be relatively unscathed where the children will all have mysteriously disappeared. This cannot be explained by a natural disaster no matter how big. Even if there was devastation in all areas, there still will be no children's bodies discovered.
Satan has had thousands of years to plan his cover story to explain the rapture. As the master of deception, you know he has come up with something very diabolical. The only thing that makes sense to me is some kind of alien abduction scenario.
All the pieces are in place for people to be deceived by something like this. With all the New Age crap and even the Catholic Church's head Astronomer declaring that "Aliens are our brothers and they could be free from original sin", the earth is ripe for this kind of deception.
Pope's astronomer insists alien life 'would be part of God's creation'
Vatican says aliens could exist
Somebody has probably already posted a link to this website long ago, but in case they haven't:
Steve Hadley
There are some excellent videos on this site including one that talks about blood red moons. The Mazzeroth is excellent as well.
God Bless,
Harold
Jim G.
The Holy Cow article is very relevant to what is going on in the middle east.
What I loved is reading the caption on your post with your child with his arms out and the surprised look on his face.
His photo and the title went well together....LOL
Harold! Great to "see" you!!!
Jib - You came back with a vengence - wow - good stuff.
That's a pretty surprising ad by McCain.
GT - you have a B-day coming up, but can't remember if it's the 2nd or 3rd or TODAY??? Happy Birthday! (in case it is today)
Deb - Where are you?
Homeward Bound - really glad to see you commenting again!
U.S. Intel: Iran Plans Nuclear Strike on U.S.
Was this already posted? Sorry, if so.
Harold,
two things. Of interest it has come to light that BHO might not actually be of african descent but actually of arabic descent.
Two, You are of course assuming that all the children below a certain age will be raptured. I am less of that opinion than I used to be although I would note i would like it to be true. I asked Frucht his thoughts since he is a Messianic Christian and essentially he feels he can't give an answer based on actual scripture-he notes he has his beliefs on the matter but has no scripture to back them up. I would note that God did not spare the world's children from the noaic flood at all. I will grant you this might or might not be different since we are talking a different set of circumstances-ie corruption of the human line with a need for total destruction vs making a decision impacting eternity. Others like Jack Kelly also don't necessarily think that all children below a certain age will be raptured either-since even new borns at the time of the rapture would at least be 7 at the end of the trib time (assuming of course that the two are fairly closely juxtaposed) and therefore capable of making a decision (my problem with that is the decision making process doesn't come at the end of the trib time but toward the middle and they would therefore still be infants and more than likely not capable of making such a choice). Some feel that only the children incapable of making a decision who have at least one parent who is a believer will be raptured. An interesting speculation would be biological parent or parent raising the child but I digress.
regarding the earthquake thing-stated my opinion on that when it first came up before at Joel's and it hasn't changed so we won't go there.
IN OUR day, open miracles do not occur. According to the Jewish religious tradition, direct divine intervention to turn what we call nature on its head ended in biblical times. Still perceptible, though, in even our less holy times are more subtle Heavenly intrusions, twists of "fate" that might wrongly be dismissed as mere coincidence.
Good things happen
Jews Arrested for Reclaiming Jewish Jerusalem Land plot of land belonging to Cohanim
Barak: We'll Go to Elections If Need Be
Official: Olmert to give Palestinians state before quitting
Syria Chooses: Assad to Visit Iran; Israel Continues Talks
Hizbullah: Option of war awake
Europe: We won't make big fuss over delayed response to nuke offer
Syria willing to cut Iran ties for peace with Israel
Iran, ahead of deadline, says will resist foes "...Iran's president said on Friday the Islamic Republic would "stand against" its enemies with its "power"
Iran heading to nuclear breakthrough: Mofaz
Two polls predict tight Israel election race
Youths contribute to the advancement of the third temple
Christians, Jews praying on Temple Mount 'seek religious war
Seal of King Zedekiah's minister found in J'lem dig
al Zawahiri Dead? Awaiting Confirmation al Qaeda Leader Killed In Air Strike
HI Just checking in
Lori..wow thats a lot of links! It must have taken you forever to do that!! Thank you SO Much! I'll check them out tomorrow.
I certainly hope the link about Olmert giving away the land before he leaves office is not true! What a dumb thing that would be to do!
Jim G...the link about the cow... I am assuming you already know that the biblical red heifer has to be perfect...it can't have even one hair that is not red.
The Temple Institute Site has lots of info on the Temple, including the red heifer that still needs to be born, and other things they have been getting ready for the temple they hope will be built in the near future...the priests robes, sacred vessels, etc.,..which have all been made exactly how God instructed Moses they be made. Amazing and exciting stuff!
JIB glad you are home safely. Harold its GREAT to see you posting!
Happy Birthday, GT!
NIte!
It might be late but this lil ole hen is wide awake and has one more thing to say before shutting down the computer. But instead of me saying it and causing some people to duct tape their hands to keep from responding. Here is the link; just copy and paste.
/www.bibleprophecyinthenews.com/People_of_the_Prince.html
Just another slant on who and where the Anti-christ will be.
JIM CARROLL: You are on a swing aren't you! I love your humor and your intellect too.
Been running like a chicken all day and what little time I had free I was trying really hard to get cool. It is supposed to reach 104 tomorrow and the air is dry. That is a blessing considering we have been having 90+ humidity here in our Okieland area.
By the way, did you know that they have renamed this beautiful state? Yeah and they haven't heard the last of it yet. Someone called it Oklabama! Now listen, we all carry out in plain sight our six shooters, our 8 shooters and sling shots. We have shotguns, 22s, Fite Plains Game LR Rifle.300 Magnums, .338 Win Mag, .340 Weatherby and our Native Americans are great hunters. A few cowgirls are too. But them are hunting words in our opinion.
Just to show you how non-bama we are, our primary got behind Hill and proved their point. You see the idea behind all of that is really quite simple. No one wants to be a registered Republican because of the dire consequences it would have on business and jobs. So everyone registers as a Democrat and when it comes time to vote, we pick the least likely candidate to beat the real personal preference conservative. That puts Hill up as our delegates choice and they can do what ever they want to but they will have to answer to the voters if they want to continue representing us. As expected, they will make a big show of voting for Hill and then switch to Obama's Mama way of talking. That puts up Obama and considering this state is real loyal to veterans, McCain will carry Oklieland. End of Bama-Stoma.
Good nite all,
Grany
Yes, I knew that those interested in rebuilding the Temple are looking for a perfect red heifer. I thought the news article was interesting in light of that.
grany
interesting link and I do agree to a point-I think looking for a white european male of roman descent is more than likely barking up the wrong tree. I do think however folks are overly obsessed with Islam and Muslims in regards to end times. I could very well be wrong but it would do them well however to remember that except for Judaism and Christianity all other religions come from Satan so I don't know that Islam in particular is more likely than any other to take pre-eminence. Further, while it does not appear that Islam will be completely destroyed in Gog and Magog I do however think it will be substantially crippled both in manpower loss and the simple fact that when the nations see Israel's God act on their behalf I think we'll be seeing a world wide turning of some of the rest of those in Islam to Christ. Many feel that the AC's hatred for the Jews for which he tries to destroy them must stem from Islamic hatred but I disagree. The persecution of the Jews does not start and the beheadings do not start until Satan physically indwells the AC and the hatred that will be manifest is actually a hatred of God taken out on the Jews since Satan can not touch or harm God. Israel is the nation of which Messiah was promised and born and Satan knows he is living on borrowed time ever since Christ died and rose again. Satan will know quite well at some point exactly how much time he has left to try and conspire against God-since he can't harm or take out his hatred or frustration on God he'll choose the next most convenient thing in yet again an attempt to stop prophecy from being fulfilled-ie no remnant to call for Christ's second coming. He will use every trick in the book at that point to win and that includes using old standbys such as beheading which were formally instituted in other religions.
further thoughts.
Jib,
Thanks for inviting me to come and post again. I haven't caught up, so I'll just begin, and go from here :)
I do have a few thoughts about children going in the rapture, though.
It comes from a Kenneth E. Hagin teaching. He said, when he was a young minister, he used to give alter calls, about coming up in front and getting your names added in the Lamb's Book of Life. Then after a few years of study, he realized that there is only one Book of Life. Because if a person had to have their names writen in the Lamb's Book of Life, no babies/children would go to heaven, right? He said, that because there is the Book Of Life, that babies/young children go to heaven, upon death, until the age of accountability. (which is different with each person) And that is why the Book of Life is at the Great White Throne Judgement, for the unsaved. Because their names have been blotted out.
Anyhow, another thought on the question of babies/children going in the rapture.
God bless, and have a wonderful weekend! It's good to be back again.
Interesting stuff about the red heifer, Jim. Interesting also that more and more artifacts proving the presence of a Temple are coming to light. Judging from Lori's links, there's a lot happening right under the world's nose.
Harold; always nice to have you call in. Please give my regards to ATTY. I see his posts at Joel's Trumpet.
Homeward Bound, great to see your posts.
And Marge, I'm so glad to hear from you too!
Grany & co; I'm going to have to spend a little time catching up on some of this stuff.
Jib, I tend to agree with you that Koenig's timeline could be too far out. I think a major catastrophe like Gog/Magog would shake things into place very quickly - which is why I find Doug Berner's book so compelling.
Once, not many years ago, the people of the Temple Institute planned to import frozen fetuses of a red heifer from a Scandinavian country and implant them in the uterus of an Israeli cow. The aim was to create the rare animal whose burnt ashes served in Temple times to purify those who had become ritually unclean due to contact with the dead and enabled people to enter the Temple compound in a state of purity.
Wilma,
That's an excellent study. I just watched Prophecy: Satan and Islam by Walid Shoebat two days ago and was blown away.
It seems accurate and more biblically sound than some of the teaching I've heard on the subject up to this point.
Stay cool today.
lori
Greg Laurie talks about his son’s death.
'You choose, Dad!'
What a wonderful way to srart the day...seeing so many of you wonderful folks commenting on such great topics!
Marge, it is just so wonderful to see your comments again!
Gotta run for now!
<><
Hi Marge! So good to see your name!
I stumbled across this video of the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir. It should bless your socks off!
Hey everyone! (Okie greeting, you know)
Need a sauna treatment today? Come to this beautiful (bug infested) part of Okieland and we will just simply sit out under our magnolia tree and sweat! Best sauna in the world and you don't have to heat the rocks or pour water on them. Good way to relax and get some much needed skin cancer.
It is beginning to look a lot like Ole Timers Week around here. There is Marge and Homeward Bound and all of you. Twinkle Toes posting those confounded links. Confounded because they take a lot of time to do and then there is our Jim Carroll who keeps us all in stitches, along with educational rabbit trails here and there. Oh, the sweet green grass of home!
Now for a serious note; well, serious for me. I really feel that with Is. 17 getting ready to take place in the near future that Russia, inspired and lead by the Satan into the Gog/Magog battle, the end results of that battle, Islam will stop looking so attractive. The countries involved in the war of Gog/Magog are all Islamic and not Arabic. We have had this discussion numerous times so we are spared all of that. But there is a wilder and bigger picture involved here. Joyce is right about Islam being too easily ID'd as the conquering religion that will be ushered in. She is also right about the reason Satan hates Israel AND THE CHRISTIANS. He hates God and desires to destroy God's plans of restoring Israel and transporting the Church out of Satan's grasp. I love the story of Joseph, Mary and the child Jesus escaping into Egypt when Herod was trying to kill all of the little boys under the age of 2. God sent an angel to direct Joseph to gather up his family and go immediately to Egypt to ESCAPE the death squads. When it was safe, God then inspired Joseph to return to the Promised Land to re- establish Jesus' national heritage and to fulfill all of the scriptures about the Suffering Messiah's first advent. There are related episodes that paint the picture of the 2nd advent when Jesus, King of kings and Lord of lords, will appear in the clouds leading his vast heavenly army on white horses, wearing pure white garments (that's us folks) to do battle with the forces of satan at the battle of Armageddon. Jesus returns to establish his Kingly reign on earth and thus fulfill the prophecies of a powerful and God appointed 1000 year period of Jubilee.
One of the reasons that Satan desires to water down the gospel that we are supposed to be preaching to the World is to make it of no effect and thus enlarging Hell daily. I don't think that Satan is truly convinced that he will be cast into those pits. He has always tried to usurp God's domain and prevent God from receiving our praises and worship. The weapon he has used so effectively is distraction and spiritual blindness. Make something appear as one thing that is totally the opposite of what God's word tells us. Fussing and fuming, church splits, and cults forming!
Look at our world morals for example that has eroded until we are just as bad as in the days of Noah and Sodom/Gomorrah. When we took the penalty for sin (death) and dressed it up in Political Correctness (it is Ok honey, you are just human) we played right into the hands of the Fallen Angel. But it started long ago when we became "I" centered and McDonald's drive-thru minded.
When I was just beginning on this road of Christianity, I was told that just because I didn't agree with what the scriptures said, didn't mean that I was right and the Bible wrong. It just meant, I had a whole lot more of learning to get. Through the years I have seen the assigned personalities change where it came to the ID of the Anti-Christ. That is politics and wild imaginations. But this age, is coming to a close. It is the Church Age and when it closes, God will deal severely with Israel and the Goyim. Why? Because they didn't keep God's commandments and they denied the Christ. That age is called the Times of the Gentiles and Jacob's Troubles. Terrible times.
That is why I have no question as to when the Rapture will happen. We are to be separate from the World (Believers in Spirit and in Truth) and keeping our eyes on the Prize of His high calling. We are kept by the Power of the Holy Spirit unto righteousness and that through faith. God is able to complete the work that he has begun in us and No Man can pluck us out of the hand of God, for greater is He who is in me than the one that is in the world. That one who is in the world is Satan. He ain't my brother! You want to know the fullness of Jesus' desire for each and every one of us? Read John 17 and study it out. Get it down into your heart then let your mind dwell on it until it becomes a part of your very innermost parts. Eat it, drink and breath it! Then go out and share it with all of those who cross your path daily.
Love you and all of you stay cool,
Grany
Hello warm and toasty little friend in okie land.
Okay, so what you're saying is though the Damascus demolition project is getting ready to happen as well as the gog experience.
Somewhere in all this, we take the ride of our lives. Those left behind that survive tough it out and hopefully realize that there is a God who loves them.
Either way, Islam is the bad guy in all that and then the ac, whoever that is, come aboard and looks so honkey dorey that he's almost down right irresistible?
Still possible he's a closet muslim, no?
Marge
I knew I'd wear you down eventually LOL :-) welcome back
Lori
my 2 cents is that I don't necessarily think islam has anything to do with anything other than as we all know it is a satan inspired and directed religion-likely the most successful of all time due to the die or convert method. so Satan knows that is an effective method so why try something new? it's a lot like those folks who say evolution had to happen because systems work the same in general across the board whether you're talking about monkees or men and that such conservation of systems means that everything came from the same one cell. not so much. quite frankly if I were going to design something to work in different areas I'd keep it really simple and use the same system over and over-why invent something new to do the same thing in different places? I see evidence of a designer and I think this is one of the reasons that God says folks will be without excuse because his creation-orderly design and systems-testify to the existence of a designer. So when I read that the AC will use the die or convert method I don't necessarily see islam per se-I see a time proven method being used to accomplish the same thing in essentially the same circumstance.
I don't think the AC will be a closet anything although if we wish to ascribe to a closet something my vote would go for straight up satan worship. Frucht has an interesting theory in his book that the AC will be an exact mirror of Messiah which would be a supernatural birth. He thinks that Satan will actually impregnate some female and thus make the ultimate nephilium. either that or he's been watching way too many scary movies. It is an interesting concept to think about.
Alesia
meant to say "back with a vengenance" ? no, just have a lot of comment on and I hadn't posted much although I did read the various posts, mostly too tired and one thread of thought leads to another-next topic may be not so much.
Hi all;
Just checking in. Thanks for the b-day greeting alesia and donna. It is the 3rd, and I'm feeling older by the day LOL.
Very good posts. Good to "see" grany, homeward bound, harold, jeri from sa and marge again (sorry if I missed anyone)!
I've been a little down and its good to read the uplifting posts.
It's also been hard to keep caught up with all you guys, so busy posting links ect. God bless you all!! May He keep everyone close in the palm of His hand!
Maranatha!
oh and if you all read the post by Greg Laurie have tissues in hand please!
Over the last couple of years or so, I've read several bible teacher's teachings on the possibility of the AC coming from the eastern leg of the Roman Empire, whose capital was Constantinople, modern day Istanbul.
I had no idea there were so many similarities between Rome and Constantinople, including the 7 hills, until fairly recently.
I guess the AC could come from most anywhere being that the Roman Empire broke up into so many different countries and into so many different directions.
The link Grany sent out has him coming from Syria.
Well who knows and I don't think he is supposed to be identified till after the rapture.
I must say thought that Frucht's theory sounds a bit fruity! Hopefully that is not the only theory about it that he has!
OK DONNA, "I must say thought that Frucht's theory sounds a bit fruity! Hopefully that is not the only theory about it that he has!"
Are you trying to outdo Jim Carroll? Impossible you know because Jim draws word pictures on the right side of his brain and edits on the left. That is why he is such a comedian. By the way, while I am regressing about Jim C., it was Jim's comments on Joel's blog that I first heard of the Eastern section of the Roman Empire. Up until then I had them all packed snugly into Rome. I guess there was just too much garlic and pizza going on in Rome so the eastern half materialized.
LORI, anything is possible with the AC but the Bible does have certain restrictions regarding him. But I remember when I was a kid growing up that there were people who thought F.D. Roosevelt was the AC and then it was Hitler and then it was Stalin, and on and on we go. But I believe with all of my heart that we will know in our hearts the ID of him before we are raptured. Might be just a twinkling of an eye before but I just can't see the Holy Spirit not pointing him out. That is why Osama-bama is such a spine chilling persona. Gilded tongue that can make a whole nation believe any ole change that he has in mind is fine with us; that has the approval of the world community and is undefinable as to what he believes in or for that matter why he does so. Does he believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he lived, taught, was betrayed, tried in an unfair courtless trial, was hung on a cursed tree for all of us and that he arose from the dead and now sits at the right hand of the Father awaiting his orders to come get his bride? Lots of questions to ask him but one thing for sure. He has the people eating out of his hands where ever he goes. I wonder how many bridges he could sell or how many post holes he would get bids on at eBay?
Either he is a great impostor or there is something sinister happening in the atmosphere to influence normally intelligent people.
Shiver, shiver!
Shshshsh, do you hear the footsteps heading our way? Do any of you smell that wonderful aroma?
Grany
Wilma, Too much garlic and pizza? It is too laugh. h ehe hehehe
I feel like we will know who the ac is, but really don't like to say it because I don't want anyone to think I'm "looking" for him.
But you're right, all this obama talk has to make you think.
I just watched Farrakan on youtube saying that obama was the "stone that the builders rejected." Then he went on to say he was the messaiah. Farrakan never was in his right mind anyway.
Hey, need prayer for Joanne. She can no longer make house payments and has been trying to sell her house for two years. She is close to foreclosure. She really wants to sell this house. It's 5 bedroom, huge, huge home and it's just her and her little doggie.
thanks for praying.
Just read thru this once. I wonder which book Jack is talking about.
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley...
Saved From The Worst But Kept From The Best?
lol I couldn't resist!
And I agree...in no way or could I ever come even close to outdoing Jim!
From the Jack Kelly article to which Mac provided a link at 7:29 PM:
This is the parable of the Wedding Banquet, and the one ejected is a last minute wedding guest. The Bride is not a guest and could never be thrown out of her own wedding.
To accept the author's view that this parable is about the Church you have to start with the belief that some of the Church is the Bride of Christ and some isn't. But the Bible never even implies that. You can only come to that conclusion by departing from a literal interpretation if Scripture to make it say what you want it to say.
Jack Kelley goes on to say:
The man ejected from the banquet was a last minute guest, a tribulation believer not part of the Church. He was trying to receive the blessing of those invited to the wedding feast (Rev. 19:9) at least 7 years after the Rapture. He hadn't kept himself pure and had lost his salvation.
I think interpreting parables can be pretty tricky. While I certainly would not take the position that the author of the book allegedly takes (there is some middle position between heaven and hell for those who were justified but never totally sanctified), I did find it interesting that the author apparently arrived at his position from a OSAS position (which of course Jack also supports). As many here in the cave probably know by now, I don't see OSAS harmonizing with the whole of Scripture very well. I know, many of you don't think rejection of OSAS can be harmonized very well with the whole of Scripture.
Jack Kelley goes on to say in this article:
Here's how I see it. In Rev. 16:15, just after the 6th Bowl judgment and long after the church has departed, the Lord said, "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
He was alluding to the fact that the Doctrine of Eternal Security expires with the Rapture, a fact that Jesus taught in the Parable of the 10 Virgins. Tribulation believers will be responsible for keeping themselves saved. Still, their righteousness is symbolized by clothing.
Hmmmm. Now that's an interpretation that I've never come to or heard before. I'd be interested in what others think about it. Of course, the Scripture is not problematic for those of us who reject OSAS and view faith as something that God enables us to have but does not force us to exercise.
Grany, Shalom! You wrote:
Up until then I had them all packed snugly into Rome. I guess there was just too much garlic and pizza going on in Rome so the eastern half materialized.
Hey, waidaminut! I LIKE garlic and pizza! Especially thin crust, extra cheese, with the garlic-olive oil-butter dipping sauce on the side! Luckily I live in a college town, so I can get a late delivery!
re: the parable of the wedding banquet, here's how the good sisters explained it to us: The invitations sent by the king are the graces that G_D sends to us, calling us to join Him. The servants sent out are G_D's messengers, the prophets and holy men and women, who were sent by G_D to bring us all to him, but the people he chose to come refused to come (refused G_D's graces) and in some cases killed the messengers. After this the invitations (G_D's graces) were open to ALL people -- anyone could choose to accept the invitation and come to the wedding. Almost everyone who did accept the invitation did so by changing into wedding clothes. The responded to G_D's graces by changing their lives before coming to the banquet. Yet there was someone who had accepted the invitation but had not changed his life: he was still dressed in his street clothes. In doing so, he showed great disrespect for the king and for the wedding banquet, which is why he was cast out. Without explicitly saying so, it's seen as a parable against OSAS -- those who accept G_D's graces but do not change their lives will not be admitted to the banquet, even though they have an invitation. Don't forget: at this time Jesus was still dealing with those Jews who viewed themselves as saved because they were Sons of Abraham. They were "once saved always saved."
<><
"Hmmmm. Now that's an interpretation that I've never come to or heard before. I'd be interested in what others think about it."
Jim; I have come across it before. The idea surprised me when I first heard it. I'm not sure what to believe yet but it fits the dispensationalist angle.
Is it OK if a Protestant says AMEN to what the Catholic sisters taught re the wedding banquet? If so, then AMEN!!!
Well, Catholicism seems to be based on works, so it is not surprising that the nuns would explain the wedding feast in terms of a works based salvation.
Compare what Jim C. shared about his understanding of the wedding banquet with what Jack Kelley said in his article.
One has much broader application and instructional value in my opinion.
One (IMO) is also much more straightforward and parsimonious. I still tend to think (though there can be exceptions) that the following rule works pretty well when it comes to developing our understanding of Biblical doctrines.
"All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities.
If you have two competing doctrines, both of which can be supported by Scripture, the one that fits most easily into the whole of Scripture without requiring complicated (or sophisticated) extra-biblical assumptions is the better one. When I say extra-biblical assumptions, I mean assumptions that are neither prohibited nor required by Scripture.
The idea from Jack Kelley that: Tribulation believers will be responsible for keeping themselves saved seems to be extra-biblical at best and unbiblical at worst if we accept as a foundational doctrine that good works can NEVER keep a person saved. Saints in the OT as well as the new have always been made righteous in God's eyes through faith (which of course is active and ongoing and evidenced by good fruit in their lives).
Donna,
If we surrender to the Lord and die to self, does that qualify as works?
If I'm drowning and a person throws me a life ring to which I grab onto and then he pulls me on his boat (or ark), does that mean I saved myself?
Did Noah save himself when he obeyed God and got into the ark?
If your answer to these questions is yes, then I suppose the Bible does teach we are saved by works. Maybe it's just symantics.
I think the Bible teaches that faith and works always go together. Read Hebrews 11. It's a pretty long list of works that are evidence of or accomplished through faith. By faith, Abraham obeyed and went.
Why did God "commend" these great heroes of the faith if what they did was not commendable? God did not commend Himself. He commended them for their faith.
If it were impossible for them to NOT "still be living by faith when they died" why would God state in His Word that "All these people were still living by faith when they died." Heb. 11:13
Seems to imply that there is some human agency involved to which God calls us holds us accountable.
Seems to imply that there is some human agency involved to which God calls us and holds us accountable.
Yes, Hebrews 11 is the great FAITH chapter, and yes.. thru FAITH works will follow....no question about that!
Faith first... then works will flow.
The guy on the cross next to Jesus did not have much of a chance to DO anything...but he was saved by FAITH.
Mac, weird things are happening to my attempts to comment. First, the post didn't come through to the blog but Alesia received it in her email notices, then as I was typing the whole box cleared itself of all typing and just now, it took forever just to load the comment section up. Then I couldn't put anything in the comment box.
Do you suppose you might have a hitchhiker attached to your
\
Green Alien! I have done a complete safe mode scan by a very powerful security app and it came back clean. Also, did a system check and also, a URL scan and all of them came back fine. I guess I willl just keep checking until I find the source of the problem. If that fails, I will call on my reserve IT for help.
Anyway, my whole thing is about church! Paul never demeaned the purpose or value of the corporate body of Christ. It takes all of us together who are called the redeemed to form that body. Lonestar vigilantes don't carry much weight but neither does legalism. The law kills and more church bodies have been killed by Legalistic mindsets than any other means. Jesus offered his blood sacrifice once and it was acceptable to the Father. I don't have to be saved every week. I am SAVED! I have the responsibility to repent and ask God
's forgiveness whenever I sin! I know when i have sinned because the Holy Spirit convicts me of it IMMEDIATELY! No fooling around and no misguided human knowledge. He makes it personal; one on one.
God told us not to lean or depend on our own understanding because His Ways are NOT OUR WAYS. I don't wear a lot of makeup. After a certain age, you can't improve perfection (LOLL) and besides that, winkles don't putty in very well. But that doesn't mean I believe it is a sin to wear makeup. I don't drink alcoholic beverages but that is simply because they just always made me sick or very sleepy. I was called the Lemonade Kid when I was an adult single woman. I was always the designated driver and we all enjoyed my distinguished position in the group. So, if you didn't want the drive physically sick, you didn't spike her lemonade.
After I was saved I desired to live a totally different way of life. I had uppermost in my mind to cuddle in close to God and Jesus was too precious to take to places that would cause him to blush. He died for my sins and gave me the greatest gift of all, Eternal life. How could I shove that aside for some worldly pleasure that would only cause me to be ashamed and allow a foothold for the devil to get in. NOPE! I sinned but I repented and that is the difference. When I repented, I didn't go back to that same sin again and again. I REPENTED! Means turn completely and totally away from the thing I had just done.
So, we have a responsibility to God to live according to His word and we have a responsibility to The Word, Jesus Christ, not to grieve the Holy Spirit that lives in us.
It isn't church doctrine that causes me to live this way; it is Totally up to me and my value that I place on my relationship with Abba Father. It is a Holy Spirit way of life and I prefer it!
I don't know any other way to live and further more, I have no desire to pursue any other way. So, if it requires me losing my head for the sake of the Gospel, well, it was getting winkled anyway, so let it go!
By the way, did you all know that controlling other people is considered Witch craft? Yeah! Look it up!
Have a happy summer Sunday,
Grany
I justt learned of a new (anyway to me) search engine you all might really enjoy. Read about it in the business section of the Ft. Smith Times Record today. Here is the link: http://www.cuil.com
I am really impressed with it and according to the article they are not gathering information about the users of the engine. Very easy to read and deep in results.
Grany
GT -
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!
Don't be down, God loves you & so do we!
Jim G. - I've sat (somewhat) quietly by with all the OSAS talk - but have to state...everything you say is as plain as the nose on my face.
Not sure why people keep interpreting it as a "works" deal. I don't see what you say as that way at all. (Good thing Lisa is on vacation)--- I tend to be leaning towards your way of thinking on this.
Grany - I forgot to mention - when you made that post that showed up in my email but not here, it was because you posted it on an OLD post. You must have been looking at old posts & commented on it, instead of the new thread.
OH, Alesia, I feel so much better about that missing comment. I just checked my laptop homepage and no wonder it was on an old posting. I am getting too old for this multiple computer thingy.
Thank you dear one!
My pet squirrel IT just told me that the reason I was having all of the problems is due to the new anti-spam app that I installed. So please, tell Mac I found the problem. Needless to say the new app is past history now.
Grany
Donna, Shalom! Just for the record, Catholicism is NOT a works-based faith. We simply do not accept the doctrine of sola fides. As with the invitations to the wedding, G_D is constantly sending us graces to help us know and love Him. What is important is how we choose to respond to these graces, these invitations. We respond through our actions, showing that we have "changed our clothing." Works without faith is empty, and faith without works is dead.
Now, I'm sure that many of the people the King originally invited were good people -- paid their taxes, didn't beat their wives or kick their dogs, that sort of thing. Yet they showed a complete lack of faith in the King by rejecting the invitations. Maybe they thought, "What has the King done for ME lately," or maybe they thought the wedding banquet wouldn't be as entertaining as what was on TV that night. And through this lack of faith they found themselves excluded from the banquet. In extreme cases, their lack of faith in the King bubbled over into hostility, with the result that the King destroyed them and their households and their cities. Their works were without faith.
Those who remained HAD the faith to accept the graces, accept the invitation to the banquet. Unfortunately, there was at least one there who thought more in terms of "free food" than anything else: He had an invitation, didn't he? The invitation didn't SAY to dress for the occasion, did it? He wasn't like those people who were destroyed, he had FAITH in his King! And so he came into the wedding banquet without washing up, or scraping the muck off his sandals, or doing ANYTHING to mark what a wonderful occasion this banquet was. He had faith, so there was no need to do anything to change. So the King had him thrown out, for ignoring what the graces of the invitation were telling him: "This is special! YOU'RE special! Act like it!" His faith was without works.
<><
an addendum to Jim's portrayal of the Wedding Feast: the thrown out guest had a head knowledge and not a heart relationship. Out of the mouth the heart speaks but in order for it to be in the heart you have to absorb it, cherish it and firmly believe it. So that takes works and faith and submission! I can have faith in anything but Anything doesn't save me. Nothing can save us except the Son of God and his sacrifice. Or to put it in more recognizable terms.....It's the Blood that cleanes me. Nothing but the blood of Jesus, who can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Who can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
So, did that guest who was thrown out have the washing of the Blood of Jesus or was it just a head knowledge?
Bloody ole thing aren't I?
Grany
Alesia,
Thank you.
I hope everyone has had a lovely weekend thus far.
Although I've been busy, it's absolutely beautiful here in western WA.! (right Kathy and Grace?)
Many thanks to everyone who has welcomed me back, too! Thanks.
God bless, and keep fighting the good fight of faith!
Greetings all....
I refer you to this study - another view to that which I read being discussed here.
The Gospel
. . . . . . . . .
Now for my thoughts:
Eternal life is eternal life. It is the gift of God...Period! It cannot be earned; in fact, there is nothing man can do or must do to be recipient of eternal life EXCEPT believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died for 'my' sins - He paid the sacrificial price God deemed necessary - so that I can be related to Him and restored to God. Eternal life begins in a person's being when that person believes in/on Jesus Christ. That BELIEF resulting in eternal life is the beginning point at which the Holy Spirit begins to 'grow' or 'mature' that person spiritually. 2 Peter 1:1-11 or so teaches that it is after a person has believed on Christ that that person has any power whatsoever to make any changes in his/her life and only by yielding/submitting to the Spirit's power then.
Surely, works are to result in the believer's life, but did the Lord Jesus tell us anywhere that we are to spend our time concerning ourselves with whether this person or that person is evidencing good works from his/her being a believer and walking in the Spirit or whether he/her is 'faking' it and only talking a good talk? IMHO, He tells me that the only person's life I am to look at and judge is MY OWN!
From the above-referenced Scripture, it is evident to me also that a believer does not become a mature believer as soon as he/she comes to faith in Jesus Christ. It takes time; it takes seasons; it takes different climates and weather conditions; it takes proper amounts of rain and nutrients. All of these things are added as the Good Gardener sees fit and as the Gardener, it is up to Him (not me) what He allows or requires from that believer.
For anyone to say that that person is not a believer is quite presumptuous and is really violating Scripture - unless of course he is perfect himself and therefore without sin.
It seems to me that maybe many of us should spend a lot of time in the Gospel of John and learn from him since this man walked with Christ very closely and lived the longest and had opportunities to work out the teachings of Christ. Such a man as John helps me to understand the heart of Jesus Christ and His teachings.
Forgive me if I have offended any, but as I read from day to day...some of what I read flies in the face of what I have come to believe God's Word to say...thus, I felt compelled to speak about this. I realize many of us belong to many denominations....but we should put aside what our denominations, our favorite teachers, the sisters, etc. teach and go to God's Word for ourselves and stay there until He makes His Word come alive in our very spirit.
Blessings! (Mary)
Mary,
Praise the Lord! You are so right!
God bless you for your insight, and the willingness to share.
Love,
Marge
Mary,
You wrote:
Forgive me if I have offended any, but as I read from day to day...some of what I read flies in the face of what I have come to believe God's Word to say...thus, I felt compelled to speak about this. I realize many of us belong to many denominations....but we should put aside what our denominations, our favorite teachers, the sisters, etc. teach and go to God's Word for ourselves and stay there until He makes His Word come alive in our very spirit.
Amen. I totally agree with that and suspect just about everyone at the cave here would. Nevertheless, I've come to a different conclusion than you have regarding OSAS. I think it is important that I listen with an open heart to what you and Kathy and others have to say about this. Thanks for sharing. I am open (or at least I want to be open) to whatever the the Truth of the Lord is on this and how He wants us to understand the nature of saving faith. I've actually belonged to churches on both sides of this doctrinal issue. Precious brothers and sisters in Christ can be found in both. Anyway, thanks for your willingness to share your convictions and understandings regarding God's Word.
Well said, Mary! Very well said!!
Hi Jim,
YOu wrote:
"Just for the record, Catholicism is NOT a works-based faith."
Well, that is good to hear and I hope it is true.
The Catholic church or era I grew up in was most definitely a works based salvation.
You had to be "good to get to heaven", we were taught.
I hope and pray they are changing these teachings.
Mary,
I did check out the link you provided. It appropriately pointed to John 3:16 and the word BELIEVE which is found in that classic salvation verse (at least in many English translations).
So, I looked up the Greek word that is translated "believes" here:
John 3:16 in Lexicon with Strong’s Dictionary
It says:
pisteuo pist-yoo'-o: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ)
Just as important (IMO) is the verb tense that is used. We don't really have an equivalent verb tense in English.
verb - present active participle
From what I've read, it means that the belief is active and ongoing, not a one time confession of belief. Anyone who continually trusts and abides in Christ, has eternal life. Many folks make a sincere profession of faith and even repent for a season only to later fall away and deny Christ. They have ceased abiding in Christ and thus have walked out from under the covering of his secure and saving grace.
what? where? who? why? when? did I see the word leaning ?
Alesia, Was that you?
JK-Just Kidding!
Hi.
Great posts! I have much catching up to do. (I see you missed the latest genetic mutation that washed up on the beach on the East Coast.)
This is great-now I can kick back, relax & read away!
Lisa
Israel Presents New Data to Change US View on Iran Nuclear Capability
Bibi N. tells Jerusalem conference negotiations on capital 'political failure, jeopardize our security
Shas spiritual mentor Rabbi Ovadia Yosef praises Bibi Netanyahu
Surrounding the walls
Livini: FM tells CNN 'time is of the essence' in challenging Iran's nuclear drive, says 'when the international community shows hesitation, this is being perceived as weakness
Moscow Advances Military and Economic Ties with Tehran
Libya seeks arms deals, closer energy ties with Russia
Russia, Cuba set to boost ties
Russian expert warns against nuclear bombers in Cuba
Russia grants $10 mln in aid to Palestinian territories
Russia could place bombers in Latin America, N.Africa - paper
Russia's SS-18 Satan missile to stay in service for up to 8 years
Iran: Israel threatening world security
U.N. council must increase sanctions on Iran: U.S
Top Syrian general assassinated: reports
IRAN: CONVERT COUPLE ARRESTED, TORTURED, THREATENED
Cool Shofar call for Feasts of Trumpets
Jim G wrote:
"If we surrender to the Lord and die to self, does that qualify as works?"
I personally would regard the above as faith, not works.
Throughout much of these conversations, it could very well be that much of the times we are "splitting hairs" and basically saying the same thing.
Technically, there could be people who at one time or other have professed faith in Christ, but wound up turning away and denying him. I then would say if such a situation truly occured, then this person never had a "saving" faith in the first place...that the seed was planted on 'rocky soil' that did not 'take'.
The seed that does 'takes' will grow, and an abiding relationship will occur, to one level or other!
It is my understanding that when we believe, the Holy Spirit enters into us, never to leave us again. The Holy Spirit is our engagement ring.
As Grany was saying, we can 'grieve the Holy Spirit'. We do have responsibilities!
But we are saved, justified, sanctified and, as GT pointed out a few weeks ago when we were having this same discussion, glorified... ALL thru faith in Him to do these things for us and thru us.
Hey Lori, thank you for all of those links!
It is weird or what that Russia's missle is called the "satan missle"?
Creepy!
Hi Marge! I'm loving this weather, that's for sure!
Jim G,
I've been wanting to ask you about your understanding of abiding. I see the presence of abiding as confirming the reality and genuineness of salvation. It is a quality of genuine saving faith and the power to abide comes from Christ. Hebrews 7:25 says that Christ is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always live to make intercession for them. The reason I see those who walk away from the faith as never having been saved is because Jesus saves forever and He always lives to make intercession. We mustn't make abiding a merit for keeping salvation but a quality that confirms the reality of our salvation and the absence of it as pointing to lostness. The parable of the soils show us that some will make a profession of faith, receiving the gospel with joy, but the cares and worries of the world or persecution comes along and they cease to abide. I think this is indication that their faith was not genuine, saving faith. Genuine, God given faith has the quality of enduring...Romans 8 does say nothing will separate us from the love of Christ.
I think Jack Kelly's gone off the deep end. He needs a vacation to clear his mind.
I attended this service before I left. He narrowed in his focus this time on "abiding" in Christ.
What that means & how to abide.
It begins at about 36.00 min.
Christ in you the hope of Glory Part 6
(Also I'm a tattle tale! I e-mailed
Chuck Smith's church & told them my concerns about "The Purpose Driven Life" book & small group studies @ my Church.Someone here linked that Chuck Smith made a public statement to remove all Calvery Chapel logos/affiliations if any sister Church was going to promote Rick Warren's teachings. They quickly replied & said they were going to look into it.)
I'm the one that posted the link about the Calvary chapel folks not liking the purpose driven drivel. don't remember where I read it however.
Paul was certainly saved when he wrote the following:
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
1 Cor. 9:24-27
Can we all at least agree that Paul felt it was possible that he could be disqualified for the prize AFTER having entered into a saving relationship with Christ?
Jim G,
Do you mean Paul was saying he could sin his way out of salvation? He couldn't be referring to that. Not after his phenomenal treatise to the Romans. He told the Romans in 8:1 that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. In Romans 7 Paul describes his struggle with the flesh, but never once worries about losing his salvation, and then he exuberantly declares in 8:1 that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. He must be referring to something else other than losing his salvation in the 1 Cor. 9 passage. I think he is talking about self-control so that he will not be disqualified from his preaching. "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." Leaders are to be above reproach. (1 Tim. 3:2, Titus 1:6)
Kathy,
John, chapter 15, is the primary text and starting point from which I get my understanding of what “abiding in Christ” means.
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
John 15:4-5 (NAS)
The word that is translated “abide” in the New American Standard version is of course a verb. More specifically, it is:
verb - aorist active middle - second person
According to the lexicon at: http://scripturetext.com/john/15-4.htm
It means: to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) -- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), thine own.
The tense of the verb is aorist.
According to StudyLight.org, the aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time.
The voice of the verb is active middle.
According to preceptaustin.org, the active middle voice means that the SUBJECT initiates the action and participates in the results of the action. The middle voice indicates the subject performs an action upon himself or herself (reflexive action) or for their own benefit. E.g., “The boy groomed himself.” "Reflexive" - of, relating to, or constituting an action (as in “he perjured himself”) directed back on the agent or the grammatical subject - often translated with words like "-self" (himself, herself, themselves, etc).
The mood of the voice is imperative.
According to StudyLight.org, the imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.
It sure seems to me that this means the Lord commands us to abide and that we (the subject) are responsible for abiding in Him. He’s given us free choice just as he did to the Israelites in Deut. 30:15-16 when he said:
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
Note: The Lord had already established his covenant with them. They still had a choice in the matter though. Did he ever fail them. No way. But he gave them the choice to keep the covenant or not. Of course, we have a new covenant but the principles under which God keeps His covenants with us are the same. Yes, he chose them first. But they (and we) need to respond to Him as He commanded. God never treats us like robots in the Scriptures. In fact, we are created in His image. Maybe that is why we have free choice because it reflects His image.
So, if what you have just stated:
"From what I've read, it means that the belief is active and ongoing, not a one time confession of belief. Anyone who continually trusts and abides in Christ has eternal life. Many folks make a sincere profession of faith and even repent for a season only to later fall away and deny Christ. They have ceased abiding in Christ and thus have walked out from under the covering of his secure and saving grace." ...
is true, then a person may 'believe' on/in the Lord Jesus Christ 'by grace through faith', then that person cannot truly know that the faith he/she has just placed in Christ is the 'real thing' or not until way down the road, possibly even just the moment before he/she dies or until he meets Christ face-to-face.
If what you have just stated is true, then one's salvation is up to him/her to make sure he/she holds on, does enough good works, never falls down or stumbles in his/her faith, never gets so burdened down by heavy loads that satan and even 'some well-meaning' people might bring to pass. A belief such as this cannot produce a real joy and enthusiasm in living for Jesus, because ... who knows how long such joy and enthusiasm is going to last ... who knows when you are going to be tempted beyond your endurance at a moment when your faith is at its weakest and you fail to let Christ be your strength?
My faith in Jesus Christ for salvation [justification --forgiveness of my sin (past, present, and future)], and for salvation [sanctification --maturation in my faith and character and Christ-likeness]--and for salvation [glorification --His changing of my humanity into His spiritual likeness] -- to put it in my simplest manner of speaking -- totally rests in WHO HE IS and WHAT HE HAS DONE, knowing I (mankind) cannot make it any other way. I cannot come to faith in Him unless He draws me to Him. I cannot live a life pleasing to Him, unless He empowers me to live such a life. And then, for me to be totally faithful to Him, that would require that He 'overpower' me to live such a life.
Eternal life is a gift of grace from God given through His Son. It's just that simple. I KNOW that I am His child. I KNOW that Jesus is my Savior. I KNOW that I will stand before Jesus Christ at the Bema Judgment, and I long to be able to hear Him say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant!" But it won't be because I have lived a life of perfection or even lived a good life the whole time. It will be because I have a heart for God and a desire to please Him.
I've been a believer now for 42 years, and I know my Lord better now than I did at the first. My Christian life has known many struggles, many hardships, many trials, even some very real failures, but PRAISE GOD, I've NEVER doubted my salvation or the eternal security I have in Christ Jesus - both in this life and in the life to come. Who do I credit for this? Who do I boast of in this? Who do I praise in this? I boast only in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Like you, Jim G., my greatest desire as a believer is to always remain teachable - have a teachable heart, and when I pray and as I read God's Word, I ask for His guidance and understanding in hearing His heart; I ask for His wisdom in knowing how to apply His truth in my life; however, I am convinced in my security in Christ Jesus. I am also most humbled in my spirit and in my person for His goodness to me, in His grace and His mercy.
Blessings, all! (Mary)
Kathy,
I of course agree that "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
My point is that some folks don't abide or remain in Christ Jesus.
...There's much more I'd like to say ... in regard to now ... now that I am saved and my eternal security is assured ... as Peter (2 Peter 1) "make every effort to add to your faith ..." and He lists several character traits that we as believers are to make every effort at allowing to be added to our lives. These we work at - but not to keep our salvation - which we didn't work at to obtain. "For by grace are you saved through faith, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
Rest well; I must get to bed. It's 12:05 a.m. in my neck of the woods.
Blessings! (Mary)
Time for a little humor. Enjoy.
Calvinist Dictionary
Why don't they remain?
1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not really of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."
They don't remain because they were not really of us...not genuine believers.
Jim G,
We are told in 2 Peter 1:3 that "His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness..."
Abiding in Him pertains to life and godliness...this ability comes from Him...therefore it is evidence of genuine saving faith, not something we do in our own power to keep salvation.
I'm not saying we are without responsibility. As Mary pointed out, we are to add to our faith the virtues that Peter listed. If these qualities are ours and are increasing, we can have assurance of our salvation. Genuine saving faith is evidenced by obedience.
Paul received grace and apostleship to bring about "the obedience of faith". Rm. 1:5
I too wish you a well rest Jim G, but most of all that you will rest well in His power!
The comments that follow the link I just posted are funny too.
Dawn added the following entries to the Calvinist Dictionary:
Trinity: Augustine, Calvin and Spurgeon
Neo Trinity: MacArthur (or Sproul or Piper), White and Spurgeon
Kathy,
I think there are possibly 3 classes of people who don't make it to heaven.
1.) Those who never accept Christ and never pretend to be Christians.
2.) Those who are fakers and imposters (e.g. those claim to know God but deny the power of God or those mentioned in 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not really of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.")
3.) Those who really were a part of the church and but did not persevere to the end (per the warnings in Hebrews, 1 and 2 Peter, Jude, and elsewhere).
Doesn't the Bible teach that Christ died for all?
Why would he die for all if God only intended to atone for those He chooses.
People are eternally damned not because they are not elect but because they refuse to accept the forgiveness that is available to ALL.
Jesus himself said:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Jesus said "the world" not "the elect" and "whoever believes" (not whoever God predestines). Why would Jesus make such a statement if people have no choice in the matter? God doesn't play games with us (or our minds).
The God of Calvinism seems to distort the God we find in Holy Scripture. He loves EVERYONE and he died for EVERYONE and he makes salvation available to EVERYONE. Scripture doesn't say that people fail to get saved because God chooses to include some and leave others out. They fail because they (living souls with free choice) reject Him.
OK. It's late.
I'm choosing to go to bed now.
Of course, I can only do so because God has given me a home and a nice bed to lie down in at night. It is by His grace that I can even lie down and sleep. But he does give me the choice to accept and use what he has graciously provided. Good night;-)
Good morning all. This is sad and scary: From Crayons to Condoms
Oh Mac! That story was just horrible.
I get enraged (as you know) hearing things like that - awful it is.
BTW...Good morning everyone!
Oh, I forgot...
Welcome back Lisa!
Hope you had a great trip.
Jim G
I don't view that passage about running the race and the prize as something that suggests that one can lose their salvation. I view more as an instructional video if you will. The people he was originally writing to obviously wanted to know how to live their Christian lives. Paul used a metaphor that they would easily understand. He told them-you know only one person wins the prize in these races and they would know what kind of personal attributes such a person would have-focused on one thing/goal, dedicating themselves completely and utterly to that goal, letting nothing dissuade them from reaching that goal, making the goal their reason for living, spending hours in pursuit of their goal etc. He's telling them-this is how you should live and if you live this way you will get a reward and I don't get the sense that he's talking about their salvation here I get more the sense that he's talking about getting a well done from Christ and later within Romans I do believe he talks about several different crowns or victor's wreaths available to those who run well.
Mary
awesome words. you are right. I do think it is easier to be joyful.
My concern with running a good race is that I do want a crown to lay at Christ's feet, I do want things to survive the Bema seat, I don't want to be ashamed of my life. Recently someone posted or I read somewhere that we can't all live or have a position directly next to Christ. How presumptuous is that-to think ourselves so great that we deserve such a thing? I'm not worthy of such an honor for sure. Plus that seems to be more for the 1000 yr reign rather than all eternity-that our positions and what we do are directly related to how well we run our race now.
For those in the abiding discussion.
Can we just back up & look at one thing? I'm sure all of us here on this blog are abiding in Christ or we wouldn't be on fire to post and discuss these things.
Since we have been working on this particular topic in depth @ Grace Chapel over the last few weeks-my understanding has been increasing on this subject.
Trying to understand things of a spiritual nature doesn't come quickly & naturally to most of us.
It's a journey & a process of intense mediation, study, and persistence in drawing closer to God.
Some things I have come to realize through personal experience in that journey but when someone else who has a gift of teaching & can articulate some of these spiritual matters well-it can open up even greater vision & understanding. Even if you already thought you had "got" the concept.
Is there any finite depth to these
spiritual matters? Or is it a black hole in the level of understanding?
God has made us to be intellectually curious. No matter how far down the road we've come spiritually speaking there doesn't appear to be an "end" point in spiritual comprehension. We always have more to strive for and keep us engaged.
He has not laid it all out on the line but desires us to search it out. He reveals more as He sees fit. We have The foundation stone then build upon it stone by stone.
God has allowed disunity in the Body of Christ. Anyone have a guess to why?
This may just be the million dollar question.(and since I'm not a millionaire I don't have the answer-sorry.)
I ran across a prophetic website over the week that this guy claims to have figured out the end time events through Daniel & Revelation.
That the rapture doesn't happen until the end of the Tribulation but those who seek the truth will be included in the 144,000 & saved through the horrific events. He will also tell you the reason for disunity in the Church.(Since the 144,000 are Jews plain & simple-wrongo bongo. This reminded me of the JW's who think they are the 144,000.) Of course you have to buy his book to get these answers but he provides a 100% money back guarantee if you don't like it.
But never-the-less is this not a good question? Why the disunity? What is it's purpose in the Body of Christ?
Is it to see who will love their neighbor as themselves regardless of differences? Is it to see who will truly search out the truth in scripture? Is it to see who will abide in Christ at all costs? Is it all or none of the above?
I would like some input in the link just posted-"Christ in you the hope of glory part 6".
Alot was gained from it if anyone would like to engage in some discussion on how Christ abides in you in through you.
excellent treatise on prayer from American Spectator of all places and I also found two letters to the editor which I have copied in full-one from Mike Dooley and One from Bev Gunn and I am going to check out faithmap.com for certain. They are thought provoking for sure. I do not have permission from the authors to re post (since I have no means of doing so) but have copied their material verbatim
Do We Have a Prayer?"
From Mike Dooley (I bolded the part that I thought was so thought provoking)
"The reason why so many are surprised by the "unsecularity of the American public"is that secularization of society has been the confident prediction by intellectuals and "free spirits"since the end the 19th century. They freed themselves from the shackles of religion and it would be only a matter of time that everyone else would do the same. Even if a God did exist, He wasn't supposed to matter that much. He certainly doesn't care and He definitely doesn't talk to anybody.
When it comes to the issue of prayer, many who do not believe make what they think is a decisive question: "If your God is supposed to be so loving and compassionate, why doesn't He heal everyone?" Surely this is a question whose answer is hidden by the left hand of God -- that is that side of God He does not reveal to us. But there is a partial answer.
The question "Why doesn't God heal everyone has it all backwards."The real question is: "why does divine healing happen at all?"Readers who study the Scriptures will note that the miracles and healings are less about the healed and more about our Lord and the world to come. These are glimpses of the promised Kingdom of God that the faithful keep and contemplate them in their hearts praying "Even so, Come Lord Jesus."
-- Mike Dooley
From Bev Gunn
"I have always felt that the biggest privilege a Christian Believer has is to be right in the middle of answered prayer!!! And the privilege of being able to pray for an individual, even if God's answer to the prayer is not what we believed the best outcome, is no less powerful. For God gives comfort and sends graces we cannot imagine. And as a Chrisitan author has written, God either brings us through the event unscathed, or He carries us through the event in His arms with Heaven awaiting. And I could write volumes about the answers of NO! to some of my prayers and I am increasingly thankful for the times God did answer NO, for He knew the best for me and He has never failed me.
I find great comfort in prayer. It has always been so. A child born at the beginning of the '50s drought in Texas, my heart returns to the time when big men knelt in the living room of our home and in church and prayed for rain. I noticed, even at that early age, that they also thanked God for the provisions He had given that week and prayed that if rain wasn't in His plan for the coming week would He please give them the grace and comfort and provision to make it another week. And none of those ranchers that I knew that prayed lost their ranches during that 8-year period of hard drought.
My mother taught me at her knee to lift my voice to God, not in written prayers but taught me to pray from my heart. A child's simplicity is lovely to hear, as I listen to my grandchildren pray now. At my home they fold those hands and lift those voices as I once did at that age. And the things they remember to pray bring tears to my eyes. From God bless and care for Uncle Ben at war, to asking God to let us have rain and cooler weather and to see more butterflies and hummingbirds in our garden. One even thanked God for getting to watch the hummingbirds fuss and fight.
The privilege of prayer has saved my life on several occasions. During the early days of the Internet (invented by Al Gore) I was once injured terribly in a car accident (1991). Prayers were lifted for me in short order, thanks to the Internet, and soon folks from England and Germany and two churches in South Korea, were praying for a woman they had never met. This is the power of prayer, that we can cover the globe knowing no time and no distance and knowing God will incline His ear and listen to His children. Even my dear son-in-law developed, in part as a Christmas gift to me, a site to list prayers and have individuals pray for you from all over the world. It is called Faithmap.com
So, this day I pray, Lord bless my son and my country and those who fight to keep me free, and Lord please confuse the enemies here at home and abroad, that would desire to possess those things we hold dear. And Lord, may those that be for us be more than those against us!
Blessings this day from an East Texas Rancher,
-- Bev Gunn"
they posted them Here on 8/1
joel has a new post
Cutting Edge Newsletter
Some good topics:
The U.N. recently accorded two homosexual-rights groups
'consultative status'
"A top Syrian general who served as the country's liaison officer to Hizbullah has been assassinated, Arab media reported Sunday. General Mohammed Suleiman, who was an adviser to Syrian President Bashar Assad, was shot dead by a sniper in the Syrian port city of Tartous on Friday ... Syrian authorities had been trying to prevent news of Suleiman's death from being published."
Obama plans to grab oil company profits.Would turn dollars
over to states, green energy projects, families..
What does it mean to abide in Christ?
Rice Likens Secret Israel-PA Talks to Oslo Process
Don't fight Israel outside Lebanon
Israel urges int'l pressure to stop Hezbollah arms smuggling
Reports: Syria's Hezbollah liaison was assassinated
Syrian opposition member says regime ordered assassination
Possible USA VP Nominee: Jerusalem is Ground Zero
Israeli food company: We won't sell produce grown by Arabs
Iran says it won't halt nuclear work, talks to EU
Ahmadinejad to visit Turkey for nuclear talks
Interesting article 'EURANIUM' The Weaponized Fiat Currency
There is a young lady who desperately wants to attend a Christian college locally. She is short several thousand dollars. She has secured a job on campus that she will begin in about two weeks. So far almost 1/2 her tuition was miraculously covered.
Oddly enough, her last two employers left her high and dry without paying her. One was a photo studio. She got a lawyer who got this person to agree to pay her back this year, but not a cent was sent yet, and the amount is over $3000.
Then her last employer apparently had problems, because one day this young lady goes to work and there's a note on the door, "Closed." She hasn't heard from the company, the owner, nor has a check arrived.
This girl needs a miracle, and God's in the miracle business.
Please pray and ask God to loose this money whereever it is, as well as what she is owed so she can pursue her education at this college.
I was hoping everyone could remember Morgan Freeman in their prayers. I have no idea where he stands with Christ...but he seems to be a pretty cool guy and it would be nice to have him in heaven!
Also, my dad is celebrating his 88th birthday this Saturday...we will be heading down to LI to help celebrate.
Please remember him in your prayers as well and thank you for praying for him in the past.
:)
Welcome back, Lisa!!
A belated happy birthday, GT.
Sure has been a bit quiet today!
Guess I'll check some of the links out!
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Kathy,
I appreciate the article you posted -- What does it mean to abide in Christ?
The main problem I have with it is that it seems to ignore the NT Greek tense, voice, and mood of the verb translated abide. I'll try to briefly summarize what I posted earlier.
The NT Greek word that is translated "abide" means: to stay, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry.
The tense of the verb is aorist.
The aorist tense means the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time.
The voice of the verb is active middle. The active middle voice means that the SUBJECT (we who are commanded to abide) initiates the action and participates in the results of the action. The middle voice indicates the subject performs an action upon himself or herself (reflexive action) or for their own benefit.
The mood of the voice is imperative. The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding -- in the case here, that would be Jesus commanding us to abide.
Jim G,
I’ve not studied Greek, but I do know that Peter tells me that it is God’s power that has granted to me everything pertaining to life and godliness, this would include my ability to abide and continue in Christ. Jesus commands me to abide but also gives me the power to abide. That makes salvation completely His work, from start to finish, from His choosing me before the foundation of the world to my final glorification at His return. Jesus said He loses none that the Father gives Him. He chose me and in choosing me He secured my salvation. How do I know I am chosen? By my fruit. Those who are chosen will abide and will bear fruit. Sometimes the fruit we produce looks pretty sad, but Jim, I am thrilled to rest in His security. I also understand that since now I belong to Him He desires my obedience and service. I give it to Him joyfully out of gratitude for His mercy and grace on my behalf. I can now love Him because He first loved me. There was a time when I didn’t love Him. Romans 8:7 He tells me that before He gave me the capacity to love Him my mind was hostile towards Him. My mind would not subject itself to His law because it was not even able to do so. He needed to choose me because I would never have chosen Him. There is none righteous. There is none who seek after God. I was dead, dead, dead in my sin! He also tells me in Romans 8 that I will never be separated from His love now that I belong to Him. I will be disobedient and as a loving Father He will deal with it, but His love will never, never let me go and His love will never, never let me walk away from Him! Those who do not abide were never granted genuine repentence. (2 Tim. 2:25) We need to let God have the sovereignty in our lives that He gives Himself in His Word! It is a most wonderful place in which to rest!
Jim G.
This is from the article she posted:
To “abide” is to live, continue, or remain; so, to abide in Christ is to live in Him or remain in Him. When a person is saved, he or she is described as being “in Christ” (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17), held secure in a permanent relationship (John 10:28-29)....
It does state to:live,continue & remain so I didn't find anything contrary in it. In fact for a brief description it was quite well done & accurate (:
mac;
Thanks for the b-day greetings!
I'm still following the discussions.
blood bought(mary);
Very good post @3.38pm! You got to the heart of the matter!
overcomer;
Very good post on abiding @8.46pm!!
I believe the believer is given the choice of following the Holy Spirit prompting, that is one part of the definition of abiding IMO. It is His love for us that prompts us to abide, He is always faithful even though we are not!
lisa;
Very good question: "God has allowed disunity in the Body of Christ. Anyone have a guess to why?" Very good question, one I have asked myself about a lot lately. Why do you suppose we all have different interpretations of scripture? One answer I have is that our understanding is incomplete as long as we are in this flesh on the earth. If we completely understood God as He does us, we would not have the incomplete view we have now. How we understand God and His plan is how we apply this to our interpretations of scripture (just the way I see it anyway).
Maranatha!
Thanks for the welcome mats!
Banff, Canada was one of the prettiest places I've been. It would have to win the award for the most luscious overflowing vibrant flowers I've ever seen in my life.
There are baskets of flowers hanging all over & I could not imagine them being any healthier or lovelier.
It's a little town tucked in a valley located at the Continental Divide. Lakes rivers,hot springs,& even glaciers nearby.
Black & Grizzly Bears,Elk,Moose
, Big horn Sheep,Mountain Goats,Ravens,Golden & Bald Eagles, Wolves,Coyotee,Lynx & Mountain Lions.
Two interesting events.
One was the prayer @ the dinner. This trip was for a Defense Council of Attorney type organization. So to have a prayer @ a meeting w/a bunch of attorneys (they are not known to be a Christian majority) was really good to see. The prayer it's self was really well said. It began w/"Father God we....." but the end was "Amen." (She left out the "in Jesus name we pray")So I took it as an attempted "Universal" approach.
Then they had a family "Cowboy" party w/kids activities. I have to tell you- I can not escape UFO's so you'll just have to put up w/me.
They had a huge blow up UFO for the kids to play in. Inside was a maze with slanted eyed Aliens the kids could punch & push around. One was a grey @ the control station in the middle as the UFO driver.(They had little round windows around it so you could see inside.) Yes-I had to look!!
gt,
A friend and I were discussing that very question. Since we all have the same Spirit why do we interpret scripture differently? I think you are on to something!
Lori, I'm praying for that young lady. I meant to respond sooner but have been chasing my tail.
For all you nightbirds - a new post is up. All others; sleep well and have a God blessed day tomorrow.
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