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144 comments:
Jim G; you make a lot of very good points. You’re right, Kathy has asked about some of this stuff before, and Mat 24 & 28 has been discussed, and I and others have responded re the elect etc, etc. We tend to go around in circles with this. Where I said the great commission could be fulfilled by anyone who is a believer I meant that everyone (all of us) have that obligation as long as we’re here alive on this earth. The disciples accepted that commission as Jews before the church was formed at Pentecost. They passed away without completing it and the church carries it on. When the church is raptured, I would suggest the 144,000 and the tribulation saints also take on that commission till the end of the age. I don’t see any Scriptural conflict in that view.
Perhaps I should ask where prewrath sees the end of the age occurring exactly. Is it at the prewrath rapture? I see it as probably occurring when the Millennium begins (maybe it’s at the start of the 70th week –I don’t know). I said this the last time the question came up; if you think you have found a problem for pretrib then prewrath also has a problem. If you see the end of the age occurring at the beginning of the day of the Lord (at the prewrath rapture) and that occurs ¾ thru the 70th week, then that means all believers are raptured leaving only unbelievers. Has the great commission ceased at that point? Presumably people are still being saved after the rapture or no Gentile flesh would be saved to populate the Millennium, yet the church is no longer present. What happens to Mat 28 then and how are people saved in that short time? The later in the week you place the rapture the more problematic it becomes.
BTW, seeing as we’re asking questions of each other; let me ask this. On what basis does prewrath teach that the wrath of God occurs at the 7th seal when it has actually occurred by at least the 6th seal?
Rev 6:16-17 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Dave
it wsas so good to "see" you
Anne
you as well
seems my nightly prayer list gets longer all the time
anyone else want to come out of the woodwork
GT
I still think you need to consider the Jewish eschatology aspect. The sermon this last week at the church I attended noted that eschatology didn't start with we Christians but the Jews had well developed eschatology by the time of Christ. According to Dr Frucht and others, what they are asking about corresponds to what we call the Tribulation and then the millenial kingdom. If you look carefully at Revelation for example there is very little new information-most of the book ties together all of the remaining OT prophecies in a chronological order that didn't exist prior to the book being written. Jewish eschatology to an extent was geared to when the Jews rule and gentiles drool and are subservient and the nations get theirs-the whole concept of the church and rapture was unknown to them. Christ was the last of the Jewish prophets so most of what He has to say eschatologically speaking likely refers to Jewish eschatology and so should be considered from that perspective
Mac
nice answer btw on the Holy Spirit and the end of the age
watch your credit card statements if you have them folks
Credit card fraud with donations to BHO
Good morning to all!
Thanks, bloodbought for the radio interview link. I forwarded it on.
Lisa, I'm surprised you got a response with the deluge of e-mail he seems to be getting. Nice to read.
Granny, understand about Anne, Anne.... And, look! She appeared! ;-)
Mac, I too, got a chuckle out of the 'followers' section the other day. How is your following doing?
-HB
Shalom, all. Just popping in before I go crash. 3rd shift is messing up my schedule; but hey, it beats not working.
TTYL;
<><
jib;
I completely agree with the view you stated about Jesus answering the disciples from a Jewish eschatological frame of reference, in fact I posted on it a long time ago. I know you meant to address Jim G though.
mac;
I also agree that the 144K will be witnesses during the trib. The Holy Spirit is acting as a restrainer now (in the believer)as from the verse:
2Th 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
Of course pre-wrath doesn't see the Holy Spirit in this verse as the restrainer, but I cannot see any other logical "person" who could be the restrainer of "the secret power of lawlessness".
Maranatha!
Donna,
Do you know the mother of your child's friend drawn to witchcraft? Is it Wicca? Many people I knew in High School who liked Heavy Metal music were drawn into Wicca.
First of all in order to reason with someone attracted to or involved in a false religion it's very helpful to study it from a Christian perspective. People tend to close their ears when the person trying to help does not fully understand where they are coming from.
This is ironic that something like this should touch your life because I know the strong aversion you have to even remotely looking
at anything along this lines.
Could this possibly be something God has called you to overcome for the sake of someone you care about?
Witchcraft is one which is obviously a false religion directly connected to Satan but in reality ANYTHING that leads one away from Christ binds them under Satan & his plans. No matter what the "cover" looks like they all lead to the same eventual outcome of eternal separation from God & hell.
If you can visualize this as Spiritual warfare-it's really not scary at all. We have been called by God to fight & resist the evil Spiritual world in the physical realm.
We have Christ in us-what could there possibly be to fear? He is far greater in power & intelligence than Satan & his minions.
I would pray about it & buy a Christian book on the topic of whatever form of witchcraft this person is into. Then when you have a handle on it you could talk to the daughter &/or mother about what this is & reason w/them Biblically as to why it's a bad idea.
I think why people are drawn to this is a "feeling" of power & control. Possibly this child desires more security & feelings of confidence & the curiosity of the "mystical" side of things.
If you have a firm grasp on the "spiritual" warfare concept and realize that people actually do get power and sensations from demons under the guise of many religious titles-then if this child can grasp it - you can tell her she can also obtain something greater in Christ as He will dwell within her & she will have the access to the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. We Christians also feel the glory of God & supernatural things but our end result is Heaven & not Hell.
Of course there is allot more involved in being used by the Holy Spirit & we have to become a new creation-work in humility-& too much to even mention here but you know what I mean. We wouldn't want her to become a Christian yet be a "sign & wonder" seeker either.
If there is a cool Christian Youth group in your town-possibly that could help this girl as well.
People interpret this passage in different ways: "Wise as serpents yet innocent as doves".
I like to think of it as being knowledgeable about the wiles and ways of Satan in order to be on guard and defend ourselves & others yet grounded in the Word & filled with the Holy Spirit in Christ to overflowing.
Wise yet Holy. Here is a good sermon on the topic: WISDOM & INNOCENCE
Lisa
Anne,
I completely relate w/your experience in dealing w/husband types. (Just last night I heard "I'm striking that from the bench" when I made comment.) It was over "where" I had bought this good tasting Mexican flan dessert.
He asked where I had bought it and my reply was "Why does it matter where I bought it as long as it tastes good?" (I bought it at Wal-Mart but I never revealed my secrete!)
Our pastor has been on fire lately & this was a good topic & sermon for those interested.Understanding the Times part 4 "This is the fourth in a series of teachings on recognizing the spiritual battle we are in, how to pray for our nation and standing for righteousness."
(**It opened up a new insight for hubby & sparked his interest in reading about it in the Bible.)
Julie Meyer, worship leader, prophesies about 2008 election
Julie Meyer prophesies about 2008 election
The following is part of an e-mail I sent out this morning:
"We MUST remember: "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. THEREFORE, take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand THEREFORE, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the firery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--(and Paul ends this exhoration) and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak." Ephesians 6:12-220
In my spirit, I believe this 'election' is not about Obama and McCain; rather it is a battle between the spirit of evil and the Spirit of rightneousness. I have felt this in my spirit in each election since the early '90s. As believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, we MUST do as the above Scripture admonishes us to do....after having done all to stand...but the question that each of us must answer individually and honestly is, "HAVE WE DONE ALL?"
I am enclosing a video file for you to view if you'd like - which helped me to face up to the question, "Have I done all?" Its style of delivery may or may not speak to you, but the message resonated with me.
Julie Meyer, worship leader, prophesies about 2008 election
http://juliemeyer.com/
I will also enclose another audio file that you may or may not have heard or read anything about.
http://www.therothshow.com/demos/recent/hour2oct0808.mp3 (Rachelle, the second one is the one I already shared with you, Betty, and Karyn.)
Let's each make sure our armor is intact and we're ready to stand and see the glory of God revealed - if not NOW, then SOON and VERY SOON!"
Blessings to all,
Mary
Praying with you, Mary.
Hi Lisa,
This girls grandmother apparently was into this, reading tarot cards,etc ....as are lots of people I have come in contact with over the years.
It is not new for me to be confronted with this at all...my step mother has been involved with this sort of thing (channelers, for example) for many years.
One of my brothers dabbles in this a bit at timestoo (fortune tellers, etc.).
I learned years ago that He has power over it and that we should stay away from it, so that is what I do.
I do not necassarily have an 'aversion to looking at anything along these lines'...I just do not like to focus on it. I prefer to flee from it, as the Bible says to do.
I do not feel I have to overcome any of it, as He already has (and always has) overcome it all.
But, thank you for the suggestions, as I do need some and I do appreciate them and will look into them further.
Talk with you later!
Thousands of Christian pilgrims march for Israel
Here's a quote from this article:
"....Many said the annual pilgrimage, organised by the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem (ICEJ), represented a fulfilment of a Biblical prophesy that all nations would gather in Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles."
sorry GT you are correct I did mean Jim G-you just must have been on my mind.
pay attention to the last sentence or 2 of the entire article
Old synagogue reopens in muslim quarter
I have a humongus favor to ask. A friend of mine sent me this request.Her name is Sharon and she works with Family Life Ministries in AR. Her sister has some dementia. Well, just read the request. You'll get it.
************************
I wanted to thank all of you for your prayers for my sister Linda. She has been in the hospital since the beginning of October, and was just recently diagnosed with dementia. She will turn 61 on October 21, and God keeps laying something on my heart.
Linda has always liked receiving cards in the mail so I thought it would be fun for her to receive a bunch of birthday cards this year. Even though she may not realize that she doesn't know some of you, I'm hoping it will put a smile on her face.
Please don't feel any pressure to do this - I know life is very busy right now for lots of you, but if you do want to send a card here is where to send it to.
Linda Franz
P. O. Box 618
Sister Bay, WI. 54234-0618
So, I thought I'd broaden the card delivery area just a bit. Anyone game?
I'm game. Consider card sent!
How cute!
Lisa
Mac,
It is my understanding that the end of the age is synonymous with the DOTL and this is when the rapture occurs and here's why...
1) Jesus says He'll be with us till the end of the age - Mt. 28:20.
2) The tares and wheat are to be allowed to grow together till the harvest which is the end of the age - Mt. 13:30,39.
3) Peter tells us to be looking for the DOTL - 2 Pe. 3:12.
4) Paul tells us the DOTL will not overtake believers and he says this just after talking about what we all understand to be the classic rapture passage - 1 Th. 4:13-5:6. Just like Peter who says we are to be looking for the coming day of God Paul says we are not to sleep but watch...(1 Th. 5:6)
Why does prewrath place the rapture after the midpoint of the Week?
Because in 2 Th. 2 Paul makes the coming of our Lord and the gathering together to Him synonymous with the DOTL and says it, the DOTL, will not come before the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction exalts himself in the temple. Who the restrainer is, in my opinion, really has no bearing on what I believe Paul is saying with great clarity...the DOTL is tied to Christ's coming and our gathering and it won't occur before AC exalts himself in the temple.
Prewrath views the 5th seal martyrs as crying out for God's wrath..."How long O LORD till you avenge our blood?"
The wicked react in sheer terror at the opening of the 6th seal. They announce it's impending arrival when the earth shakes and the natural lights go out and they see the Lamb.
At the opening of the 7th seal there is silence in heaven for a half an hour, the first trumpet sounds, and then all heaven breaks loose with the wrath of God.
I'll talk about my understanding of salvation after the DOTL begins in a later comment...my husband needs ice on his knee...
Kathy,
In agreement, according to Matt. 18:19, for your husband's knee surgery, to experience an accelerated healing :)
God bless you, and your family!
Love,
Marge
Lori, you bet I'll send a card!
From Ray Stedman
ZEPHANIAH: THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH
by Ray C. Stedman
It was Zephaniah's lot to speak on the most unpleasant subject in the Bible -- the judgment of God. This is not the only place where this theme occurs, of course, but it is the most concentrated treatment of the judgment of God as the whole book is devoted to this one theme.
There are many people who would like to rule this subject of judgment out of the Bible entirely. There are those who tell us that the God of the New Testament, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the kind of a God who can never move in judgment. His heart is so tender, his love is so gracious, his patience is so infinite that there never will be a time when God will move in vengeance. It is remarkable, though, that in the New Testament the Lord Jesus spoke very frequently about the judgment of God. In the fourth chapter of Luke we are told that the Lord came back to his home town after preaching in Judea for many months. He had done many miracles and the word of his miracles had preceded him, so all the folks in Nazareth were very anxious to see him. He had not behaved like this when he was a boy growing up, and they were keen to see if he was going to do some mighty work when he came home.
Luke tells us that Jesus went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and he was given the book of the prophecy of Isaiah to read. Opening the scroll he found the place (which happens to be the sixty-first chapter of our version of Isaiah) where it read, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor." (Lk. 4:10) That passage predicts the ministry of the Messiah. Then he stopped right in the middle of a sentence, right at a comma, and his last word was that he had come to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord. But Isaiah goes on to say, "and the day of vengeance of our God." (Is. 61:2) Now the Lord did not read that because it was not the time to proclaim the day of vengeance of God. But the day of vengeance is coming, and it was the Lord himself who described the day of the Lord (recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke), and it is this day particularly that Zephaniah is talking about.
Zephaniah means "hidden of the Lord" and the prophet is speaking as if he were a representative of the remnant of faith -- those relatively few people who will remain true to God and be faithful to his word through the time of trouble that is to come upon the earth. They will be hidden, as it were, by God himself among the nations of the earth and God will watch over them to keep them in faith during this time. And it is about these people that the book of Zephaniah is written, and especially of that coming day, the day of the Lord, which is vividly described by the prophet.
In chapter 1, Zephaniah gives us the character of God's vengeance. It is not a pleasant passage. It begins after the prophet identifies himself as a great-great-grandson of one of the kings of Judah (verses 2-6):
"I will utterly sweep away everything
from the face of the earth," says the Lord.
"I will sweep away man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea.
I will overthrow the wicked;
I will cut off mankind
from the face of the earth," says the Lord.
I will stretch out my hand against Judah,
and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
and I will cut off from this place the remnant of Baal [the false god of the peoples around Israel]and the name of the idolatrous priests; those who bow down on the roofs to the host of heavens; [the star worshipers] those who bow down and swear to the Lord
and yet swear by Milcom; [one of the other gods the surrounding nations]
those who have turned back from following the Lord, who do not seek the Lord or inquire of him." {Zeph 1:2-6 RSV}
And Zephaniah says (verse 7):Be silent before the Lord God! For the day of the Lord is at hand; {Zeph 1:7 RSV}
There is a great deal of difference between the day of the Lord and the Lord's day. Sunday is the Lord's day, the day of resurrection, but the day of the Lord is something different and we should never confuse these terms. (It is like the difference between a horse chestnut and a chestnut horse.) The Lord's day was the day when our Lord arose from the dead and that is why we celebrate it on Sunday.
But the day of the Lord is the day of the manifestation of God's hand directly in human affairs. Notice the personal pronoun all through that passage: "I will sweep away every thing." I will sweep away man and beast." "I will cut off mankind." God is working through events in history, working through nations and armies and calamities of various sorts. His hand is hidden in the glove of history, but all the writers of Scripture agree that a day is coming when God will intervene directly in the affairs of men again.
A reference to this time, in the words of Jesus himself, is found in Matthew, where our Lord speaks of a time of great tribulation.
"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake." {Matt 24:9 RSV}
And the Lord goes on to describe this time. But still, this is not the day of the Lord that Zephaniah is talking about, because this is a time when the nations will still be moving against one another in warfare. Then Jesus says (Matt. 24:21, 22):
"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; ..." {Matt 24:21-22a RSV}
This is right in line with Zephaniah's prophecy. God says he will sweep everything off the face of the earth, "...but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." Then Jesus says Matt. 24:24):
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." {Matt 24:24 RSV}
And he says plainly (verse 25):
"Lo, I have told you beforehand." Matt 24:25 RSV
In other words, do not get excited about this. Then we come to the description of the day of the Lord (Matt. 24:29-31):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory: and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." {Matt 24:29-31 RSV}
The Apostle Paul speaks somewhat similarly and he uses the very term "the day of the Lord." In I Thessalonians you will find one of several references that Paul makes to this great event. In chapter 5, verses 1-6, he says:
But as to the times and seasons, brethren, you have no need to have anything written to you. [Why not? Well, because they already had it in the Old Testament.] For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When people say, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. {1 Th 5:1-6 RSV}
There are many other passages that also refer to the day of the Lord and they all agree that in the time when men are proclaiming peace, but preparing for war; in a time when they are holding to a form of godliness but denying the powers thereof; in a time when they are declaring that the problems of life are being solved. but when actually they are in greater danger than they have ever been before, then the day of the Lord will come.
Now let us return to Zephaniah and see what he has to say about this (chapter 1. verses 7-9):
Be silent before the Lord God!
For the day of the Lord is at hand;
the Lord has prepared a sacrifice
and consecrated his guests.
And on the day of the Lord's sacrifice --
"I will punish the officials and the king's sons
and all who array themselves in foreign attire ...
every one who leaps over the threshold,
and those who fill their master's house
with violence and fraud." {Zeph 1:7-9 RSV}
Now what is this feast and who are these guests that are invited to the day of the Lord? Well, this is the great supper of God that is also described in Revelation 19, verses 17-20, where John says:
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, "Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great." And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast... {Rev 19:17-20a RSV}
This is the great supper of God. It is the birds and the vultures that are invited, to feast upon the bodies of men. There is another description of this in Ezekiel 39. The guests are the buzzards, the vultures, and the eagles called to feed upon the dead, the millions that are slain in this terrible day when God again moves directly in human affairs.
"Well, now," you say, "How can this be? How can the God of love -- the God of the New Testament -- do a thing like this? How can God, who loves mercy and is slow to anger, ever come to this place?" And there are many who tell us that we should eliminate these passages from the Bible. They say we should read our Bibles in much the same way that we read literature. For instance, we read in Robert Louis Stevenson's novel Treasure Island of a character named Long John Silver. We read that he is a cruel, rapacious, untrustworthy individual. Now if, after reading that, somebody tells us that Long John Silver is really a great guy, that he is kind to his mother, and is a nice fellow once you get to know him, we do not believe this because we know Long John Silver and we know that he is not that kind of a man. Therefore, if anybody tells us that, we will not believe him. Someone with this attitude might go on to say, "I have come to know God as the God of love and the God of grace. Therefore, when I read in the Bible something that says he is a God of vengeance, and that he is going to destroy people, I just don't believe it. I just wipe that out. I say that someone else has insinuated that, because that is not the kind of God I know."
It is this kind of reasoning that suggests we should go through our Bibles and tear out every part that does not agree with our concepts of God. But what we have left, of course, is nothing more than what we like, what we think God ought to be like.
You can see how such an argument defeats itself. The very book that tells us that God is a God of love also says he is a God of vengeance. And any one who thinks carefully about himself and about love will understand why a God of love has to be a God of vengeance. For if we love someone, we hate everything that injures that person. We are against whatever threatens or destroys what we love. And the very love that moves the heart of God to pour himself out over the centuries in an unceasing effort to awaken man to his need and to hear the call of grace, is the same love that at last prompts him to eliminate those who refuse all the province of his grace, and identify themselves with that which is opposed to his will and to his work among men. Then he has nothing left to do but to destroy them. And that is why the prophet speaks so plainly about this.
Continuing in Zephaniah now, we read (chapter 1, verses 14-18):
The great day of the Lord is near,
near and hastening fast; the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter,
the mighty man cries aloud there.
A day of wrath is that day,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of ruin and devastation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
a day of trumpet blast and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the lofty battlements. {Zeph 1:14-16 RSV}
And God says in stark frankness,
I will bring distress on men,
so that they shall walk like the blind, because they have sinned against the Lord; their blood shall be poured out like dust,and their flesh like dung. Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them on the day of the wrath of the Lord. {Zeph 1:17-18a RSV}
Now it is not easy for God to speak this way. He himself says that he takes no delight in the death of men. He says that he does not delight in judgment. Judgment, the prophet says, is his strange work. His heart delights in mercy. But eventually, if his will is to be done, if earth at last is to break out into the glorious freedom of the promises of the prophets concerning man, if the dreams that lie hidden away in the hearts of men of a warless world, a time of prosperity. a time when joy floods the earth, when men live together in glorious harmony, when even the animals lose their enmity toward one another and peace shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea -- if that is ever to come, then God must deal with the entrenched evil of men. This is why the coming of the day of vengeance of our God is absolutely certain. The prophets warn of this and the word speaks very clearly. all through the New Testament as well, that when God's grace is turned aside, God's judgment awaits.
In chapter 2 we trace the extent of God's vengeance. Certain nations are named (verses 8, 9): "I have heard the taunts of Moab and the revilings of the Ammonites, ... {Zeph 2:8a RSV}
"Moab shall become like Sodom,
and the Ammonites like Gomorrah, ... {Zeph 2:9b RSV}
The Ethiopians are mentioned in verse 12 and the Assyrians in verse 13. The interesting thing is that although all these nations are long since lost in the dust of history, the promise of this day of the Lord is in the future. How can this be? Why are these nations mentioned here when they have long been buried in antiquity? How can they yet be destroyed in a day to come?
The answer is, of course, that these nations are used symbolically throughout the Scriptures as well as literally. They were literally destroyed in the course of history, but they are used symbolically with reference to the full and final meaning of the day of the Lord. Moab, for instance, is always a picture of the flesh of man -- his dependence upon his own resources. The Ammonites picture the same thing. Ethiopia is a picture of the stubbornness, or the intransigence of man. "Can the Ethiopian change his color?" the Scriptures say. And Assyria is man in his arrogance and his pride. Now God says he is against all these things, and as he moves at last in judgment on the human race, these are to be eliminated. In chapter 3 you will notice how extensive God's wrath is (verses 1, 2):
Woe to her that is rebellious and defiled,the oppressing city! She listens to no voice, she accepts no correction. She does not trust in the Lord, she does not draw near to her God. {Zeph 3:1-2 RSV}
This could be said of almost all the cities of the earth. As you read on you see that this is a world-wide matter (verse 8):
"Therefore wait for me," says the Lord, for the day when I arise as a witness. For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all the heat of my anger; for in the fire of my jealous wrath all the earth shall be consumed." {Zeph 3:8 RSV}
What for? What is God after? Is he just interested in getting even, wreaking his vengeance at last upon the stubbornness and willfulness of men? Is he visiting the earth with this terrible hurricane of destruction in order to leave it nothing but a smoking ruin, barren and desolate, without inhabitants? No, that is what men would do if there were another world war. We would leave the earth desolate, but God will never leave it that way.
After you read the description of all the darkness, gloom, and slaughter -- after the desolation and the destruction, what is the next word? Verse 14:
Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion;
shout, O Israel!
Rejoice and exult with all your heart,
O daughter of Jerusalem! {Zeph 3:14 RSV}
Why? You see, this is the new order that is to follow. This is why God is dealing with men, so that he might bring out songs instead of sorrow, service instead of selfishness, security instead of slavery. This will be the consequence of God's judgment. And we are told that the Lord God is in the midst of the people, not for judgment, as he is in chapter 3, verse 5: The Lord within her is righteous,
he does no wrong; ... {Zeph 3:5a RSV}
But here in verse 17: The Lord, your God, is in your midst, a warrior who gives victory; he will rejoice over you with gladness, he will renew you in his love; he will exult over you with loud singing as on a day of festival. {Zeph 3:17-18a RSV}
Furthermore, the Lord says (verses 18-20): "I will remove disaster from you, ... {Zeph 3:18b RSV}
deal with all your oppressors. And I will save the lame and gather the outcast, ... {Zeph 3:19b RSV}
... change their shame into praise
and renown in all the earth. {Zeph 3:19c RSV} At that time I will bring you home, {Zeph 3:20a RSV}
What a picture this is! Specifically, of course, it has to do with the remnant of Israel, but it is a picture of God's loving care during any time of despair or darkness. It is my personal belief that this is something that the church does not see. The church is caught away before these events occur but, in the time that follows, God calls back the remnant of Israel to himself and they will at last break out into the song of the redeemed. Now the singing here is led by the Lord himself in a marvelous, glorious melody of joy. It reminds me of that beautiful passage in the Song of Songs:
For lo, the winter is past,
the rain is over and gone.
The flowers appear on the earth,
the time of singing has come. {Song 2:11-12a RSV}
That is what follows the time of judgment. But no one but the redeemed can join in that song. Elizabeth Browning, in her poem, the Seraphim, describes the angels watching the work of the Son of God on earth and at last, seeing with stupefied amazement the incarnation and ultimately the cross, one angel looks at this host of ransomed souls and he says to the other, "Hereafter shall the blood bought captives raise their passion song of blood." And the other one replies, "And we extend our holy vacant hands toward the throne and cry, 'We have no music.'" You see, only the redeemed can sing like this. After the darkness, after the slaughter, after the terrible destruction comes the time of the singing. That is what God is after in your life. That is possible on the level of the Spirit right now when God deals death's stroke against the flesh within us and brings us through that painful experience of saying no to the ego and the self-life. There follows the time of the singing, the time that he is after, the reason he takes us through the pain and the darkness. What you see to be true of the individual life will also be true on the whole wide canvas of history as God brings human history to an end.
That is what Zephaniah tells us about. Although it is a painful scene, one that begins in darkness and gloom, it ends in joy and gladness and singing."
Lori, sending a card also. Prays for Linda in addition.
Sorry for the long post previously but not sorry to for sharing what Ray Stedman has studied to show his self approved by God to teach the Word, rightly dividing it and proclaiming for the edification of the Body of Christ.
Grany
"The wicked react in sheer terror at the opening of the 6th seal. They announce it's impending arrival when the earth shakes and the natural lights go out and they see the Lamb."
Are they not reacting in sheer terror because the wrath of God has already arrived? Seeing as it is God that shakes the earth – not man or Satan - isn’t that an expression of His wrath? How can their cry not be retroactive or in the present yet be predictive? Being unbelievers, how are they able to recognize the “signs” for what they are? How do they know God’s wrath is impending based on the fact that they are unbelievers and not prophets? If the DotL has not arrived at that point, how does this square with the following?
1Th 5:3-6 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
It seems that WE are not in darkness and unbelievers are, yet they are able to recognize the "signs" & prophesy God's wrath.
“Peace and safety”. Looking carefully at the first 4 seals, how can one conclude that there is peace and safety? Furthermore, if Revelation is God’s word being revealed to us and the rapture is not imminent or a secret, why is there no rapture or second coming recorded between the 6th and 7th seals. I’ve read Mr Rosenthal’s linguistic take on Rev 6 and here is part of Dr Gerald Stanton’s rebuttal:
Even a casual reading of Revelation 6:12-17 reveals that the cry in verses 16-17 is a scream of terror from the wicked, rebellious human leaders who have endured war and famine, death and destruction, a shattering earthquake and a frightful disruption of heavenly bodies under the earlier seal judgments. Obviously they are responding to past judgments and not judgments yet to come, for wicked men have no ability to speak a prophecy. True the aorist tense normally has no time significance. But the verb h\lqen is in the aorist tense and indicative mood. When this occurs it refers to a past not a future action. So the proper translation is "the great day of his wrath is come, " or as the vast majority of translators put it, "the great day of his wrath has come." It is a major error to force the translation to declare, "the great day of his wrath will come." One can only conclude that this strong reference to the wrath of God is the direct response of the wicked to their shattering experience under the first six seals, and not a veiled prophecy of coming trumpet judgments.
interesting set of "letters" that glenn beck sent to his family on what's going on with the economy
What Happened
What's coming next
What can we do
Thank you Marge! The surgery went very smoothly. My husband tore the meniscus in his left knee. The surgeon said it was a bad one, but he should heal up just fine.
Wilma, I hear what you are saying and I love you. Just know I love studying God’s Word and desire to be a student that is unashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Mac, I don’t view the seals as God’s wrath because He promises that believers are spared from His wrath and it is obvious that with the opening of the fifth seal believers are still on earth being killed for their testimony. What are the seals? False christs, wars, rumors of wars, famine, pestilence, death, martyrdom. Are these things not happening now? No one would say we are in God’s wrath now. Jesus refers to such things as birth pangs in Mt. 24 and birth pangs intensify. Between the 6th and 7th seal a great multitude is seen in heaven and is said to come out of the great tribulation and they are from every tribe and nation. These aren’t just Jewish believers. If you view the cosmic sign in Mt. 24 as the 6th seal in Rev. 6, the gathering of the elect can then be this great multitude seen in heaven that comes out of the great tribulation. You know that I understand this to be the raptured church. Those who have taken the mark will be able to buy and sell, this is what gives them peace and safety. They can eat and they aren’t running for their lives. Believers will be starving to death and will be slaughtered by AC, and while this is going on there will also be false Christs running around and wars and rumors of wars and famine and I would imagine some with the mark will obviously be affected, but they will be able to buy and sell…but all of a sudden the day of the Lord will arrive…no more peace and safety for those aligned with AC, for those with the mark. The church is raptured with the dead in Christ rising first…and then God’s wrath, sudden destruction, begins to reign down on those with the mark. At the opening of the 6th seal Christ appears, the wicked see Him and shrink back in terror, believers see Him and according to Luke their redemption is imminent…and remember, Luke had a gentile audience. That is my understanding…
Just thought I'd pop on and let you know that tonights presidential debate is taking place just a few miles from where I grew up, for what that's worth!
Looks like a lot of interesting posts today!
<><
Maranatha!
I have a VERY URGENT REQUEST!!
I just had the most amazing conversation with my (I think unsaved) 23 year old daughter. She said every time she turns around she is hearing scripture or seeing stuff pertaining to the Lord. She said that she just feels like he is stalking her!!
She did pray to accept the Lord when she was a child but feels like she is an "indian giver". She asks for forgiveness but turns right around and sins again. (welcome to the club). I gave her scriptures that talk about being saved by grace through faith. She says she always doubts that she is saved and wondered how she can be sure...couldn't He just send her a post card and tell her it is a done deal?? (smart alek..)
Anyway, she really wants to be right with the Lord but does not want to give me the satisfaction of being the one who brings her to that point. (kind of a rebellion, emancipation thing I think....)
My request.......PLEASE PRAY FOR THE LORD TO BRING HER TO SALVATION.
Today for the 1st time I overheard another lady sitting behind me telling some other women about an
"Earthquake" prophesy re:San Francisco. She was mentioning the new bill in CA trying to repeal the gay marriage act and if it did not pass then perhaps this prophesy would occur as God's judgment.
(My hearing got really good real fast catching onto this one although I remained incognito!)
Since I just happen to be moving back to CA this entire scenario has been on my heart. This gay marriage bill & judgment has also been a major topic @ my CA church.
I looked up this prophesy on the net-Here it is
Shalom, all! Sorry I haven't been posting lately. In addition to adapting to a new schedule, I've been supporting some other friends over at CAF, plus taking my cat in for surgery -- she's doing better, but has insisted on nesting in my half-closed underwear drawer, and DOESN'T enjoy the shots, the pills, or the ear drops.
I wanted to post this before dashing off to work, and already I've rewritten it three times. I'll just lay it out:
First is from "Spiritual Food For Thought", from the blog entry titled, Deluge of False Prophets - Part II. He has a lot of comments and quotes from people regarding the coming apostasy and persecution.
One of the things he links to is a report of a man in Israel who claims to be the new Messiah. (New messiah or evil anti-Christ: Just who is Rex Farrye?)
Finally, here is a link to a homily given by Fr. Joseph Esper of St. Edward on-the-Lake parish in Lakeport, MI. If you go to the link and scroll down halfway, you'll see the text of a talk given about "Religious Persecution In The United States?". There are two items I want to copy from that talk:
Recognizing a Coming Persecution
Experts agree that five stages of a coming persecution can be identified.
(1) The targeted group is stigmatized; its reputation is attacked, possibly by mocking it and rejecting its values.
(2) Then the group is marginalized, or pushed out of the mainstream of society, with deliberate efforts to limit and undo its influence.
(3) The third stage is to vilify the group, viciously attacking it and blaming it for many of society’s problems.
(4) Next, the group is criminalized, with increasing restrictions placed on its activities and eventually even its existence.
(5) The final stage is one of outright persecution.
Many commentators believe the United States is now in stage three, and moving into stage four.
And at the end:
Preparing for a Persecution: Steps to Take
(ideas in part from the book Storm Warning):
1. Realize that persecution is normal; many believers throughout most of Christian history have experienced it (including millions around the world today). If they can persevere with God’s help, so can we. Our attitude should be one of trust and acceptance, not guilt or fear.
2. Keep a proper perspective. Christians are persecuted not because we’re losing, but because we’re winning. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church (Mt. 16:18); Satan’s fury reflects the truth that his time is limited and his kingdom is crumbling.
3. Remember that persecution may come not only from the Church’s enemies, but also from fellow Christians who betray others out of fear or weakness (cf. Mk. 13:12, 1 Jn. 2:19). We must as shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves (Mt. 10:16), trusting others only after careful prayer and discernment. We must also resolve any quarrels with fellow believers.
4. Refuse to give into fear. If we suffer for our faith, the Holy Spirit will take away our anxiety and give us the words to say at the proper moment (Mk. 13:11).
5. Maintain links with other believers. “If the believer, because of fear, cuts himself off from all contact with other Christians, Satan will have won. A Christian cannot survive victoriously for long if he is spiritually cut off from fellow-ship, worship and teaching” – Brother Andrew of Open Doors Ministry.
6. Pray—for all who are persecuted, for our fellow believers, for those who persecute us and those who betray us. We must also pray for strength, courage, and discernment.
7. Remember that God loves us, is with us always, knows our limits better than we do, and will give us all the resources we need to remain firm in our faith and to emerge victorious from our trials.
<><
Beloved,
I just want to add that the Lord has given instructions to believers so they don't have to go into that time blind. The instructions are in Mt. 24. As Jim G pointed out, the Lord wants us to make disciples of all nations, teaching these new disciples everything He taught His twelve and it includes His instructions in Mt. 24. Believers are not to listen to those who say Christ is out in the wilderness or in a building somewhere. Stay put and in hiding! But when the light go out, look up! For your redemption draws near.
I love you all...Kathy
Speaking of persecution prophesies I was just readying one called
"Last Day's Assignments Against the Elect:SEDUCTION, LUST, AND JEZEBEL on the
Journal of the Unknown Prophet I would consider it in the top 5 of heavy duty spiritual warnings I've ever read.
The false messiah 1/2 space alien person in Jerusalem only seems to be reported by Derek Clontz. I'm suprised if this is really going on that someone else has not picked up on it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if something else surfaces.
In trying to find more about it I ran across an article on the "Holy Fire" The Miracle of the Holy Fire" by Christians from the Orthodox Churches is known as "The greatest of all Christian miracles". It takes place every single year, on the same time, in the same manner, and on the same spot.
Another prayer request...
First, please do not ignore my first request! My daughter is on the brink of a decision for the Lord, please keep her in prayer.
My mother is in the hospital. She is in her mid 70's with diabetes and liver problems due to Hepititis C. She is in the hospital with severe edema and asthma.
She is so blind...she is into a made up religion of her own. A little zen and a few other things thrown in. She has heard the gospel repeatedly as a child and as an adult but seems to have rejected it.
Please pray for her recovery but mostly pray for her salvation.
Grace
(FYI-interesting to know where some of these ideas stem from-I think this was a 2005 meeting.)
(RNS) -- The leader of the nation's largest Lutheran denomination has called for a global Christian council to address an "identity crisis" on how churches interpret and understand the Bible.
Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America -- one of the UCC's partner denomations -- called for Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran churches to come together to combat a "fundamentalist-millenialist-apocalypticist reading of Scripture."
Hanson made his pitch for the ecumenical council on Aug. 9 during the ELCA's Churchwide Assembly in Orlando, Fla. Hanson is also president of the Geneva-based Lutheran World Federation.
"Christianity is in the midst of a global identity crisis because we have not addressed ecumenically the questions of authority and interpretation of scripture," Hanson said.
Hanson said he was echoing the call of the Rev. Duane Larson, president of Wartburg Theological Seminary, an ELCA institution in Dubuque, Iowa.
Although Hanson did not elaborate, mainline churches traditionally are uneasy with literal readings of Scripture, particularly in fundamentalist churches, regarding the end of the world and political unrest in the Middle East. In addition, mainline churches have been divided over what the Bible says about hot-button issues such as homosexuality and women's ordination.
Hanson also urged the Vatican to work with the Lutheran World Federation to develop a joint statement on the Eucharist to mark the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation in 2017. The two sides issued a landmark statement on salvation in 1999.
In a State of the Church address to Lutheran delegates, Hanson urged greater cooperation with other churches, but also noted that one stumbling block -- particularly with Catholics and Orthodox churches -- was non-negotiable.
"In all of our ecumenical relations, let us be clear that the ordination of women now in its 35th year is a gift we bring to ecumenical relationships that we pray others will receive," he said to applause.
-- Kevin Eckstrom, Religion News Service
Mac,
Regarding the question you posed, namely: "On what basis does prewrath teach that the wrath of God occurs at the 7th seal when it has actually occurred by at least the 6th seal?"
Kathy answered your question MUCH better than I could have. I'll defer to her on the finer pre-wrath details. Thanks for posing the qustion though.
By the way, how come pre-trib folks are always quick to use some of the signs in Matthew 24 to point out we are close to the rapture (earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars, etc...) but say the rest don't apply. That seems a bit arbitrary to me.
Mac,
I think this Wiki article makes the prewrath view pretty easy to understand.
Prewrath (Wikipedia)
Praying for your mother and daughter, Grace.
Jim G, thanks for that Wiki link. I have seen it. I've also read Marvin Rosenthal's book and read Ron Wallace's articles etc. I think I have a reasonable fix on the view - maybe not! Kathy did make an attempt at a prewrath apologetic but, IMO, Scripture clearly shows the wrath has occurred before the 7th seal for the reasons I stated earlier.
BTW I totally agree with you that there is inconsistency with some pretrib writers. I give more credence to the likes of Stanton, Benware, Showers etc who are careful scholars. We’ve always had wars and earthquakes but the opening of the seals will be much more severe. A quarter of the world’s population dead at the fourth seal means 1.65 Billion people based on current population estimates. I’m assuming here that the dead aren’t just believers so I’m guessing the unbelievers won’t be thinking “Peace and Safety” at that stage.
I should also point out that inconsistency is also beginning to happen with the prewrath view where you are getting divergent teachings forming on the Internet. The guys at Prewrath Only Yahoo Groups were complaining about that some time ago.
Jim G
ha that's a simple one. the reason some pre tribs apply those things to the rapture and not the rest is that we know the rapture comes first and then the second coming ergo if those things are definitely true of the second coming then to a certain extent they would have to be true before the rapture as well
Grace
praying with you
Jim C
sorry to hear about your cat. it can be tough.
what a blessing you post on persecution was-it was something I needed to read
Grace, your mom and daughter are being lifted up in prayer. lori
Thank you for praying for my daughter and mom!
I will let you know what transpires. The conversation between my daughter and I was nothing short of a miracle.
Lori,
I cannot believe some of the headlines I am reading this morning in Reuters regarding France pushing for fewing currencies, etc...I do not blue (I know I should) but here are the cut and paste links:
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE49E2E720081016
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE49F4AG20081016
Jim C.,
Great comments on persection.
Grace
Canada Free Press: A Clear and Present Danger
Iran's army air force begins military exercise
Russian envoy: Tehran-Moscow ties in an unprecedented stage
G-8 Leaders to Meet for Global Summit on Crisis
Italy's PM, Berlusconi says he wants Russia to join the EU
Mass March in Jerusalem, Holy Temple Laver to be Unveiled
background info on laver:
Israelis held for ransom in Caribbean
"Twelve Israelis working as contractors on isolated island being held by 300 Chinese workers, who are demanding compensation after US bank failure puts halt on project"
Good answer Jib.
But, there is an Elefant in the room that Jesus was failed to mention though. The rapture. Why didn't he tell his disciples that there would be one more big sign. When you see millions of disciples suddenly disappear, then you know that the end is very near. How could He leave something so HUGE out of the conversation. Unless of course, the rapture and the Day of the Lord are the same and all the things he described lead up to one and the same end of the age.
Mac,
You're way ahead of me on the Pre-Wrath reading. This is one area where I hope I'm wrong but I'll trust the Lord (as I know you will) to take care of us no matter when the rapture happens. Thanks for your diligence, faithfulness, kindness, and gentleness in the midst of all our cave discussions. You are loved brother!
The media saturation of Obama really hit home last night. I had my little boy, Daniel, in my arms and was standing near the TV last night watching the debate on and off. Daniel just turned 2 in September. He pointed to Obama's face on the TV screen and said, "Obama." Yikes. Now that's scary. I of course alerted my wife (in partial horror) to what he had just said and then quickly pointed to McCain and said that's Senator McCain. Thankfully, he was able to say "McCain" too.
Of course, he learned Jesus's name way before any of these guys!
Amazing Grace is one of his favorite songs and he does like to pray. Please pray for Daniel though. I don't want any of the Obama garbage sinking into his precious little mind.
Better get ready for work. God bless all of you today. May He make His face to shine on you and give you peace. Amen.
From the Koinonia House-re:Fall Feast of Sukkoah (I didn't know this-as my daughter would say "it rocks!")
"This feast also involved a daily processional to the Pool of Siloam to fetch water for the Temple. This ceremonial procession is the setting for the events of John 7, where Jesus offers them "living water." This procession involved four types of branches: the willow, the myrtle, the palm, and a citrus (Leviticus 23:40). The willow has no smell and no fruit. The myrtle has smell, but no fruit. The palm has no smell, but bears fruit. The citrus has both smell and bears fruit. This sounds reminiscent of the four soils of the first "kingdom parable" of Matthew 13, doesn't it? The prophetic implications of this climactic feast are many. Most scholars associate it with the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom in Israel."
The "mystery" of the Holy Spirit indwelling Christians after Jesus death & resurrection was alluded to in OT but I don't think it was point blank revealed.
The reason given by many scholars is that if Satan knew this mystery he wouldn't have campaigned to kill Jesus therefore the basis was for prophesy fulfillment.
It may stand to reason that why we are not also told point blank about the catching up mystery is for the same reason. It will all make sense again-after the fact. If Satan knows all the details of the plan maybe he would attempt to thwart something prophetic that must happen 1st.
So meanwhile-just as they God's children debated and tried to figure things out in the OT time-we are doing the same thing in our day-probably without a whole lot of success-until after the fact.
If God's own Children can't figure it out & He's not going to clear it up-then Satan may be caught off guard once again.
So in the end our frustration with it all will be our eventual gain @ the proper time.
(Those of us who see Pre-Trib look @ the seals & think it's going to be so horrific that it counts as "judgment." Pre-wrath seems to think it's just expected persecution and the "judgment" does not begin until later. This may be the primary sticking point between the two thoughts.)
Pretty cool Live webcam at the Wailing Wall. There is sound and you can listen to the Succot Festival. Live worship music there now.
http://www.webcamplaza.net/master_frame_fix.html?http://www.webcamplaza.net/rotating/kotel_big.html
The music has just paused, but maybe it will come back. Pretty amazing to watch.
Excellent point Lisa
Jim G
good point but the rapture I don't think was germaine to the discussion at hand since Christ said elsewhere he didn't know the day or hour and we seem to forget that Satan doesn't actually know everything so as Lisa said no point in forewarning the enemy. It is this fact however that likely does spur satan to unveil the AC since he would know at the time of the rapture that his time is very short and it is time for the "hail mary pass" so to speak
Sorry, it seems the sound is no longer there. Or maybe the music has ended.
All,
To add (and clarify) a bit more, in between the sixth and seventh seals there is a whole chapter break that describes the raptured believers standing before the throne worshiping the Lord - right exactly where it should be...yes, they came out of the great tribulation, just like Jesus said they would...
Earthquakes, famine, pestilence, martrydom (if the 5th seal is God's wrath then we have God killing His very own) wars and rumors of wars...that doesn't sound like wrath to me...however, at the opening of the 7th seal, with the raptured believers now worshiping before the throne, safely in the presence of God, you have the sounding of the first trumpet - hail and fire mixed with blood and a third of the earth's vegetation being burned - now that sounds like God's wrath.
Joel has a new post
Some info on Obama's Mama Not suprising-if true what a political cover up they've promoted.
Kathy, Nope!
Grany
I don't know how I got on this Obama kick today but THIS VIDEO
Maybe we should study more of what "Black Liberation Theology" is all about.
Is anyone familiar with "Marxism"?
Political Correctness: Whose Bright Idea Was That?
July 24, 2008
by Heidi Swander. a staff member with Olive Tree Ministries
Marxists have actually used this term for at least 80 years as a broad synonym for “the General Line of the Party,” according to a book published by the Free Congress Foundation (FCF).
Geoff Botkin, senior consultant to the Western Conservatory of Arts and Sciences, is a former Marxist who became a Christian in the early ’70s and immediately began trying to expose the Marxist agenda for America. In a recent interview on Worldview Matters, Botkin explained that the counter-cultural revolution of the 1960s was the initial execution of a plan by a group known as “The Frankfurt School” to undermine American culture. They wanted to “create so much chaos and confusion and dysfunction — a ferociously uncivil society — that the people will beg the state to come in with the answers. ‘Once we have achieved that,’” the group aspired, “‘we have our Socialist utopia, which is a tyrannical state model that pushes Christianity out completely.’
“You’ve got to hear this from a former Marxist,” Botkin said. “Marxism is a declaration of war against God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is all-out warfare against the truth. They said, ‘We cannot tolerate the culture of the West — the culture of Christendom — so we have to turn it on its head and create a culture that’s anti-Western and anti-Christian.’ This is the essence of political correctness.“
So in American society today, political correctness (PC) is a masking term for an ideology known as “cultural Marxism,” that is, Marxism translated from economic into cultural terms. As such, PC “seeks to alter virtually all the rules, formal and informal, that govern relations among people and institutions,” according to the FCF book.
The Frankfurt School that Botkin mentioned was officially known as the Institute for Social Research and was established at Frankfurt University in Germany in 1923. In 1933, the faculty left Germany for New York because of the Nazi rise to power. They were supported in this move by the educational reformer John Dewey and his right-hand man, Edward R. Murrow, who later joined CBS and contributed to the political downfall of Sen. Joseph McCarthy. Murrow, at the behest of Dewey, found the faculty members positions at educational institutions across the country.
“What must be understood is that they were the very best strategists deployed by Lenin himself for the conquest of the world through cultural Marxism,” Botkin noted. But their initial attempts in Germany, Hungary, and Bavaria failed. The Christian influence of the period was too strong and wouldn’t allow it. Thus the idea of Neo-Marxism — New Marxism — was born: that is, cultural Marxism.
Now their revolution goal was to undermine the Christian family. Their main weapons for this endeavor were curriculums created for college classrooms and for Hollywood. These curriculums were “anti-Christian to the core — anti-family and especially anti-father,” Botkin said. “They did a complete cultural end-run and now we have a society that is crumbling, confused, hostile to Christianity.”
“Very few Americans realize that political correctness is in fact Marxism in a different set of clothes,” the Free Congress Foundation (FCF) writes in its publication. “Most Americans do not realize that they, through their institutions, are being led by social revolutionaries who think in terms of the continuing destruction of the existing social order in order to create a new one. They now control the public institutions in the United States. Their ‘quiet revolution,’ beginning with the counter-culture revolution of their youth, is nearing completion.”
According to the FCF, when cultural Marxists gain power, they “lay penalties on white men and others who disagree with them and give privileges to the groups they favor. Affirmative action is an example.” Botkin believes it’s not too late to save our society if we are willing to stand up to and against this onslaught by countering it with truth. Call homosexuality a sin; expose abortion as murder; identify affirmative action as reverse discrimination - and do these things in public where the people will hear you. But doing so may mean enduring ridicule, bad press, persecution, Botkin warns.
This information fills in big gaps, doesn’t it? One of the primary goals of Olive Tree Ministries is to expose deception in the church and our world. This is one of the biggest deceptions of all time and actually plays into the whole Emerging Church delusion - but that’s another subject for another time.
Now as I look around at any number of things from the demand that we be “tolerant” of homosexuals’ desire to foist their perversion on our society to the presidential election, I see the results of what a group of Marxist intellectuals began 30 years before I was born. It explains a lot, and God saw it coming way back.
“But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God” (II Timothy 3:2-4).
Is it not possible that the whole scheme has been a setup to the Antichrist’s one-world government that, it would seem, will be the supreme culmination of Marxism (i.e., the state controls everything, including what one buys and sells)?
Obama October Suprise
You'll probably like this attorney!
The Woman Who Could Have Prevented this mess
Corsi Falls Ill After Kenya Caper
Obama Team sends Secret Service agents to intimidate voter on her doorstep
Alesia,
How's your Jaw? Can you type two letters?
Hi
Looking at the posts of the last 2 days I feel like I have missed so much that I am now totally out of the loop!
OH well....hope you guys are all well. Things are kind of crazy around here.
Its been one of those days, weeks, months, years, etc, etc.
Maranatha...
not soon enough for me!
<><
Who is William Ayers?
Lisa
I understand she has trouble seeing to type due to swelling. likely it's quite taxing
sorry I still think BHO is the AC
BHO is my Jesus claims prof
Personally, I think you guys are going a little overboard with all of this anti Obama stuff.
How's about we all say some prayers for him...and his wife and kids...and for all the leaders and potential leaders.
God is going to use whoever it is that He is going to use...and that's that.
Joel has a great new post up....and here's a new post by Jack Kelly re: Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17.
By Jack Kelley
Q. How far are we from the Psalm 83 war? What would trigger Israel to destroy Damascus? When will these events occur in relation to the rapture? Apparently the rapture isn't until that last person has accepted Christ, so is there a chance time could drag out this war?
A. Although both could be imminent, there’s no connection between Psalm 83 and the Rapture. No one knows for certain when Psalm 83 could be fulfilled, although it’s the most likely to happen next.
Jewish officials have warned that if Lebanon attacks Israel, it will hold Syria responsible and will respond against Damascus. To that end, the Syrian government has removed all its archives out of the city and re-located many of its critical functions like command centers to other parts of the country. I believe that Isaiah 17’s prophecy of the destruction of Damascus will take place coincidentally with Psalm 83, and both will happen soon.
Mass March in Jerusalem, Holy Temple Laver to be Unveiled
Donna,
Regarding Obama. I do agree that that we should "all say some prayers for him...and his wife and kids...and for all the leaders and potential leaders."
I also agree that "God is going to use whoever it is that He is going to use"
But, that's not the end of it. God has said in His Word, "To whom much is given, much is required." He has given us freedom to speak truth, to warn, to enourage, and to vote. He has given us much. We should be diligent and discerning. Diligent to study the facts and the issues that the various candidates and parties stand for and the discernment to understand which one's are most God honoring and likely to rule righteously. Supporting abortion, refusing to protect aborted babies who survive the abortion procedure, and treating homosexuality as if there is nothing immoral about it is simply WRONG. The list could go on.
Consider Obama's position on Israel.
Concerned about Barack Obama? You should be.
Jim G Yes I am aware of his statement change on Israel. I think in his gut he does not want Israel divided, unlike the current administration.
I know he is pro choice, although his stand on partial birth abortion has been twisted by the media (I assume). His explanation of a vote on this issue is quite different than the media makes it sounds.
I think all of our choices in this upcoming election are poor. I am not "for" any of them.
Candidates and parties behaviors and accusations in this election have been embarrassing and sickening,in my opinion, which is a main reason why I choose to be an Independent.
I just think people are going a little overboard, that's all.
This is a prayer request from my daughter:
Once again I request your support and prayers. My dear husband was a block away when last nights Air Angels helicopter crashed and he was the VERY FIRST on scene. When he came home this morning, once again I saw pain and sorrow in his eyes as he broke down in tears. He began to tell me what had happened, and could barely get through. Please keep not only the families of those who died in your prayers, but all the police, firemen and every one else involved in the after math of the crash. Please do not call, as he is very tired and emotionally exhausted. But pray that he finds peace and comfort from God.
Thankyou for your prayers-
Jamie
Hi everyone,
Thanks to you all for the welcome back! I've missed "hanging out" with all of you. I keep in touch with Child, Stacy, Angie, Judy, Sue, Sheila and others via email. I mainly stopped coming here because of time. I rarely even get on the internet at home with two little boys to play with. (Jack is 3 now and Alex just turned 1) They are both great kids and we have a lot of fun when I get home from work.
I can't remember how long it has been since I posted here regularly. I would come in from time to time, but since I was out of the loop, I didn't feel as comfortable injecting any comments. I'm going to get back into the swing of things here though. You guys and ladies always provide a lot of things to think about.
These are really "interesting" times we are living in right now aren't they? At times, the election garbage gets me really irritated. The fact that Obama is even a CONSIDERATION for the presidency blows my mind. With his "lack of judgment" I wouldn't want him coaching my softball team let alone running the country. In fact, I don't think his associations with criminals, terrorists and those who hate America are a lack of judgment at all. It's who he is.
Well, I'm back on my mini soapbox!! Thanks for having me back!
Yet another prayer request...
The doctors told my mom that her liver is failing and there is nothing they can do to help her. They have given her 6 months to a year to live.
Please pray for her salvation.
Pray that the Lord will open a door to witness to her and that she will be receptive. He never fails. His Word never fails.
She lives in California and I live in Washington state so much of our communication will have to be by phone. We will most likely be going down there for a few days in the next month or so.
Grace
Lori,
I will be sending a card also!
Jamie,
Will be praying for your daughters husband.
Dave,
I meant to tell you at your last post that it is great to hear from you! We need ya brother!
Grace
If I were looking @ Obama through the world view & the eyes of the media I would admit I would be going overboard with Obama.
But-since I'm looking at him through spiritual discerning eyes-he is no different that one of Satan's apparitions of "an angel of light." (Strong statement I know)
He appears fine & nice on the outside but he's covering up extremely well what is on the inside of him spiritually speaking.
And how do I know? I'm paying attention to his actions, words,words of his "mentors" & "associations", & words @ actions of his wife, & childhood influences-mother, education,etc.
There is an extreme hatred for this Country (he will not even wear an American Flag pin or Say the Pledge of Allegiance) & resentment to the point of racism against white society. I think his "religion" is phony & he chose Reverend White because he needed a "Christian" title to succeed in politics. Reverend White is a Black Liberation Proponent (I'll research more on this later) & from what I understand they only accept Biblical standards which don't conflict w/their Black Liberation "agenda." Otherwise God's words are outright rejected.
In reality he has a soft spot for Muslims and associates himself with very powerful ones at that. He's already stated if confronted w/a decision between the Jews & Palestine-he's supporting the Palestinians.
He surrounds himself with people who spew hatred out their mouths. I think he's adopted the Muslim: it's ok to lie and "appear" to be something you’re not as long as it promotes your position for your "cause." I won't go all the way and state his cause is specifically "Allah" but it is at least whatever he's feeling spiritually as a "black" man.
He is extremely dangerous in what we will have to deal with & be effected by in the future if he does become President.
His actions & words prove that he is not a converted Christian with his eyes on the "Kingdom of God & His righteousness." His eyes are on molding our Country to his vision of socialism & Marxism- definitely heading in a "Global" direction.
My main concern is that the spirit driving him is not of Godly character.
Definately praying for our Country,Leaders & praying for Obama is in order.
I'll also stop short of suspecting he's the Anti-Christ but of all the Presidents we have ever had-it's not such a long stretch to imagine him being a candidate.
It's hard to know what to believe about any of the candidates with all the baloney that has been going on!
I certainly hope these things are not true!
Jamie, we are praying for your daughter's husband...and Grace we are praying for your Mom.
Dave it is great to see you again and we are glad you will be posting again.
Lisa,
I appreciate your view of Obama because I have a similar take when I watch him speak.
I turned to my wife one time and said, "This is what the anti-christ will look like." He will be able to say nothing and people will fawn all over him. He will be able to spout lies without watchdogs calling him on it.
I also said that it is almost to the point that Obama could stand up on stage and shoot someone in the head and the press would try to explain it away.
And can you imagine if McCain or Palin did this...
Three Letters
They would call him/her an idiot, moron, unfit to lead, can't speak. Biden says it....cricket, cricket, cricket. Oh that silly old Joe. teehee
Ugh.
Three Letters
I guess I forgot how to blue.....it's been too long.
Venezuela to buy Russian tanks
Swords and Shields: Russia shields Syria
Russia's Chechnya inaugurates vast new mosque
US diplomats say China blocking Iran sanctions talks
Former UN chief mulls 'phenomenal' Obama presidency
Barroso and Sarkozy plead for permanent EU presidency
Long pdf: Transforming Homeland Security; US and European Approaches
Report: Bush offered to press Israel to quit Golan if Syria cuts Iran ties
Assyrians’ central office officially transferred to Iran
Iran, Syria in talks on joint venture
An iron fist in a velvet glove
Donna
not going overboard-several people have claimed they believe BHO is the messiah. what is that other than at least the spirit of the AC. don't forget that the AC is one who puts himself in place of Christ-nothing more or less.
as to the other positions mentioned by Lisa they are spot on. his stance on partial birth abortion is not twisted and he has promised to ver turn much pro life legislation done under the last president and before. he has a 100% rating from the national group on abortion and he has voted against the partial birth abortion ban both on the state and federal level. he also voted against a bill that would protect those who survived and abortion.
his associations speak for themselves-there was a really good article which of course I can't find that explored his mother since he claims she was a major influence and she was a left wing as they come and in no way is the conservative mid west girl he portrays her as.
while McCain is bad, BHO is a Marxist and is much worse.
Lisa
i did some research back when the whole thing with Rev Wright first came out. The church has altered their website substantially since them.. you will have to look at other sites on black liberation theology but suffice it to say it was highly unscriptural and their site at one time did say that if the Bible didn't match up with what they thought was correct then the Bible was wrong.
Donna
you need to do wome serious research. if you want someone to read I would suggest you read Jill Stanek who was instrumental in bringing up legislation in IL against the partial birth abortion and the infant born alive act.
Jill Stanek site
Dave
glad you are back there bro. you and your brother have been on mind and in my prayers recently.
Donna, I can understand your feelings on all of the negative political talk but don't you see, no one stood up against Hitler and he proceeded to bring on WW2. All of us have learned that keeping silence is misconstrued as approval by the personalities that pursue political offices. We (and I mean my generation) kept silent in the 60's because the kids were tearing up the country with the protesting, or so the story goes. But the truth of the matter was everyone was uninterested in politics because of the junk and schemes of most of the elected ones. I lived in the era of McCarthy, Eisenhower-vs-Tricky Dick, Lyndon Johnson, JFK and Robert, and the list goes on. Sure we had some great people and I remember Lil Harry Truman getting the presidency dumped on him at the death of FDR and the common man was not being heard by the Capitol Gang. We were the peons of the age because we worked for a living and paid our bills with what we earned. We planted gardens, canned our harvest and thanked God for his abundance,sewed our clothes, washed our clothes and hung them outside to dry, but there was very little in the way of mass communication except the telephone.
So, we have an ability to say "Enough of this Junk" to the politicians and that is exactly what the people are saying. Someday, our voices will be stilled because politicians will be no more; the One World Government will set up and rule and then the Anti-Christ will be in full power and no one will disagree on threat of death.
The world isn't a bed of roses and in order to not be deceived we will have to be able to know what is going on and share the truth. Now the truth and theory might just be at opposite ends but Donna, if you look at all of the past behavior of an individual or group, you can pretty well know what that person is on the inside. A smiling face and gregarious social manners are not the places to search. It is what comes out of the mouth that represents the heart. It is also the climate and environment that we live in daily that shapes our heart, mind and character.
Judas Iscariot was a disciple of Jesus Christ, sent out by Jesus with the other disciples to preach the acceptable day of the Lord, was breathed on by Jesus, was entrusted by the others, and yet his hidden agenda was not revealed until he stepped over the line with the Pharisees. All of the clues were there for the others to see but they didn't. We don't know if there were any doubts among the others about Judas but he was entrusted with the treasury of Jesus Ministry while on earth.
So, life can get really tedious and mean talk can be terrible to gentle souls who like to believe the best about everyone but Donna, right now it is a matter of the best of the poor choices we have been given. I have joined the group praying for our nation on a daily basis and leaving the guess work to the Father. My other side of that prayer is "Bring it on but keep your people alert to what is".
Love ya sis,
Grany
Dave,
It's so great to have you back! Please encourage, a Child of the King, Sue, Judy, Stacy, Sheila, Angie (and anyone else?) to come back and post, too! Mike too!
Did, a Child of the King, get her new computer up and running?
I have to agree with you. (Jib, Lisa and others) Obama makes my blood run cold.
I know we're suppose to pray for him, and all Leaders.
When I think about the upcoming elections, I know we all have to pray, and be in a spirit of prayer, for our country/world.
In agreement for all prayer requests.
Have a wonderful day! And may God bless!
Donna,
It should be extremely interesting to see if a war breaks out in the ME- would it fulfill any of the Biblical prophesies?
I mentioned the Isralestine book I've been reading about Psalm 83 preceding Gog/Magog over at Joel's trumpet and I just about got decapitated.
I wasn't arguing about it-just presenting it as a question in what their opinion was.
They crammed it into the timeline of the war of Armageddon. Joel said he knows the author of the book & that he took a defensive posture about Joel's input on the subject.
One of the other bloggers knows the author & thinks he is misinformed as well. But not only that but they don't entirely appreciate Joel Rosenburg's view of Gog/Magog & think he's not overly bright.
So basically I think they feel their Muslim Anti-Christ theory "has it in the bag" so to speak. Joel Richardson's ears have perked up since Russia became so involved & what is lining up in the ME (He says Rosh is not "Russia") so at least he is not completely closed minded if "enough" proof surfaces.
(Ironic if the "proof" ends up being the actual fulfillment of one of the prophesies he has placed in the timeline of Armageddon.)
Lisa, the group mind set at Joel's Trumpet is nothing much happens until Armageddon which is utter nonsense. But, the typical response to anyone who disagrees with their theory is "they don't what they are talking about and they are stupid."
Of course, once a theory takes place in a person's mind and they determine to allow it to become truth, deception sets in and establishes a stronghold. Most generally it is almost impossible to shed any light on the matter to convince the parties of their error because it is wrapped in pride and self. One of the reasons that the replacement theology is still lingering. One of the reasons that the Pharisees could not and would not accept Jesus as the Messiah from God.
Deception, loud and clear.
Grany
Obama seeks gay help in battleground states
Excerpt from above article:
Noble said Obama’s gay supporters can help win these states by talking to friends, family members and co-workers about how the Illinois senator would be a more effective president on gay issues.
“They should be telling their own story about why they support Barack,” Noble said. “Let’s talk about the fact that we have a candidate who’s unafraid to talk about the need for LGBT laws.”
Noble, a former official with both the National Stonewall Democrats and the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force, noted that Obama favors passing the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, hate crimes legislation and a bill repealing “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.”
Wilma,
The deception is so appearant to us, isn't it?
"Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their party." Remember typing that a million times in high school? Well, it seems there are many stuck to their parties, regardless of the platforms and threats to our democracy.
I have a link to a sound bite that was actually on Howard Stern's show. Now, I'm not endorsing him by any means, but this sound bite is an interviewer in Harlem. The reporter went around asking people what they thought about O's stance on "his ban on stem cell research," "his pro-life stance," and him wanting to "keep the soldiers in Iraq until the job's done." They all agreed those reasons are why they like O. Those positions are McCain's, not his.
So, therein lies the deception. No matter what he believes, no matter what he says, there are many people that are willing to vote him in.
There is a mighty spirit of deception sweeping across this land. But we must remember that we wrestle not against flesh and blood. This is a spiritual war!
We are at war, whether we like it or not. It's time to put on the full armor of God.
Donna,
What I posted above is what Obama's SUPPORTERS say about him on the issue. It can't be attributed to baloney or name calling coming from the other side. It's coming from the mouths of Obama supporters.
Now here's what the Bible says:
Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people.
Prov. 14:34
The LORD detests the way of the wicked but he loves those who pursue righteousness.
Prov. 15:9
Isaiah 5:20 & 21… “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”
Lori,
and the full armor of the Lord is His Word - The Scriptures which the angels harken unto to fulfill. So if God's word says, "This illness is not unto death, but to the Glory of God that his Son might be glorified in it" then it means what it says. If the scriptures say "no weapon formed against us shall prosper" then that is what it means and we are to speak it out. Let it come out of your mouth because it is in your heart.
Whining will never defeat the evil in this world. Only the precious name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. His name is above every name (no matter what that name is) on earth, under the earth and in heaven above. Now know this, that if One of us who is a true Believer of Jesus Christ and his Anointing can put a 1000 demons to flight (scare the hell out of them)and 2 can put 10,000 to run away from us, then what could all of us joined together in agreement accomplish for the kingdom of God? You have more power than you think but it is power that comes from God for His Glory and Kingdom. That power simply means authority over evil.
So, you like to walk in God's presence forever, start by proclaiming God's word and believe when you speak them that He will do exactly what he says he will do.
Next speaker please!
Grany
This link is about Michelle Obama trying to influence API.
WILL MICHELLE OBAMA TAPE CHANGE POLITICAL OUTCOME FOR BHO
Putin's dog gets a satellite collar
Looks neat. I want one too!
Praying, Jaimie & Grace.
Good to see you, Dave!
Hi all,
You're all probably familiar with "Joe the plumber" by now....guy who was videotaped talking with Obama at a stump stop in Ohio and asked him about his tax plan, etc. etc. .... I heard today that the media is now thick as flies all over his family and personal info in attempts to discredit him and paint him as less-than-everyman. Apparently the blogs are digging into his divorce papers, his license application for the plumbing trade, his credit rating and are also getting union people to speak against him bc he isn't towing the Obama line with the rest of them. Basically, he's being dug up the same way as Palin is, but he won't have the benefit of a lawyer pool and fundraising monies to defend himself and deflect the very personal insinuations that are being made.
It concerns me to see anyone the object of smear tactics, but especially someone in a sudden, uber-public role for which he has no training and no way out. I don't like to think of the impact on his family/children but what really concerns me is that if he gets the smackdown in such a public way, who else is going to want to ask similar questions and risk putting their family and private life into the limelight?
I'm posting this because I felt a burden to really pray for this man and all his family/friends/associates, etc.
and thought others might like to as well.
Blessings,
Jen
Serving Kings
TGIF Today God Is First Volume 2, by Os Hillman
10-14-2008
"Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will serve before kings; he will not serve before obscure men" (Proverbs 22:29).
I was sitting in a room of 400 business people from 75 different nations to begin an international conference. After a time of worship, a man stood up and exhorted Christians in the United States to pray for their president. It was a difficult time in our nation because president Bill Clinton was in the midst of a scandal.
The man who challenged us to pray was pastor Romain Zannou from the small African nation of Benin. Romain had earned the right to exhort us. Many years ago, God had given him a burden to pray for his Marxist dictator president, Mathieu Kerekou. For 10 years, he prayed for two hours a day for Kerekou's salvation and for God to give Kerekou wisdom to lead the nation. One day while he was praying, Romain felt that the Lord had a message for the president. Within 24 hours, he was standing in a room with Kerekou to deliver the word of the Lord.
Though he and Romain had agreed to meet after their first free elections for a time of Bible study, the former president refused to meet with Romain after only a few meetings. Almost every day after that, Romain went to Kerekou's home, only to be told that Kerekou did not wish to see him. Each day he said, "I will wait," and stood outside the wall for hours, many times in the rain and heat, in hopes that Kerekou would let him in.
After a year and a half of these unsuccessful visits, the former president finally received him and greeted him with the words, "Pastor Zannou, you are a very persistent man." They began an in-depth study of the Bible. Through this study of the word of God, the former president received Christ.
Romain Zannou is one of many unknown leaders being used to impact nations through their own workplace calling. They are an unlikely group of people - pastors, flower shop owners, builders, industrialists and even a former golf pro (me).
Be skilled in what you do. You may be standing before a king in the future.
Lisa,
We ARE going to be standing in front of a King in the future, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That is the most important part to remember.
Grany
(I wonder if the "Obamite" would follow this French Pres.)
"French President Nicolas Sarkozy called Arabic the “language of the future, of science and of modernity,” and expressed the hope that “more French people share in the language that expresses great civilizational and spiritual values.”
“We must invest in the Arabic language (because) to teach it symbolizes a moment of exchange, of openness and of tolerance, (and it) brings with it one of the oldest and most prestigious civilizations of the world. It is in France that we have the greatest number of persons of Arabic and Muslim origin. Islam is the second religion of France,” Sarkozy reminded his listeners.
He proceeded to enumerate the various “advances in terms of diversity,” the increase in Muslim sections of cemeteries, the training of imams and chaplains and the appointments of ministers of diverse backgrounds.
“France is a friend of Arabic countries. We are not seeking a clash between the East and West,” he affirmed, emphasizing the strong presence of Arab leaders at the founding summit of the Union for the Mediterranean, last July 13. “The Mediterranean is where our common hopes were founded. Our common sea is where the principal challenges come together: durable development, security, education and peace,” added the French president.
I had this profound revelation today thinking about John McCain.
He's a seasoned guy & knows what evil looks like. I'm sure he's no fool to what the scoop of Obama really is. But why doesn't he expose it point blank to the American public?
It's because of all the grooming which has been taken place in our country and in the world. It's called playing by the game rules of Political Correctness.
The Holy Spirit is the restrainer of evil but Political Correctness is the restrainer of truth.
**You may qoute me BTW-Hopefully no one else has come up w/that one yet }:
I was talking to my wife after the last debate, and I felt sorry for McCain. He is a man of principle and a man with integrity, but he does not seem to know the source of morality or integrity, therefore he is hollow. The depth of his morality only goes as deep as John McCain, and in this battle which is spiritual above all else, he does not have a leg to stand on. He is trying to fight what he can see, but the battle is far beyond him. This is one of the reasons why Sarah Palin continues to come across as real. She has the power in both the physical and spiritual worlds to deal with this war. I also believe that McCain truly believes that he can win by fair, honest and positive campaigning.
As long as Obama continues to pretend to be positive, and deal with only the issues, he can deflect all attention away from his Chicago handlers and hidden agenda. I believe that he is one of those "useless idiots" who stands in front and looks good. I think that even he will be surprised at how little he can get done when Pelosi, et.al. get the taste of true power.
The future of America was at risk with the Gore/Bush battle, but now the future of the world is tied up in this election.
May God have mercy on our souls.
LW
Lw,
Amen.
And may God have mercy upon the United States of America.
LW,
"The depth of morality" that is extremely insightful. Exactly the issue w/McCain. Good intentions but trying to win on his own merit.
Then Palin shows up-his only hope for a fighting chance against the Obamamania. Oh how I wish her spirituality would rub off onto him. (Maybe it will but that usually takes some time to develop.)
Nate,
Isn't that the most frustrating thing you can ever read? The elitist audacity of Pres.Bush to be doing behind the scene deals re:/Israel.
I was really hoping so much more from him but I was duped. When the liberal Demo's were telling me about the war for "oil" and different reasons for Bush going to war I didn't want to believe it.
I don't know if all the liberal Demo's claims are true about Bush but I can admit now that at least some of them were.
This splitting up Israel seems to be some type of "Bush" legacy. He is bent on making this happen in his term of office. I wouldn't worry about it because it seems either future party will carry that torch.
But considering the other Demo picks for Pres I probably would have voted Bush anyway. Could you imagine Al Gore? How repulsive.
Every time we passed gas we would have been taxed for Ozone depletion & Global Warming.
I sure hope some day we can look back and laugh at all of this nonsense when our future King Jesus rules. I wonder how much memory might be erased? I know just the "perfect" amount.
Well, I still think some of you are going a bit overboard! :)
But anyway, I do have a bit of good news. My daughter's friend who was fooling around with witchcraft stuff...well my daughter let her know that I was really disappointed that she was fooling around with it, espec when my daughter was around her.
She wound up apologizing to my daughter, saying that she didn't want us to be upset with her and that she believed in God and was going to read the Bible.
So I guess that is a step in the right direction!
Talk with you all later and thanks for taking the time out to try to explain things.
Donna, don't you get disappointed with us for talking about the election coming up. It really bothers a bunch of us that this thing is coming up with both sides losing their focus and inspiration to be the blesser of Israel and also, that we feel so very helpless in making any real changes in our country anymore.
I am very thankful for the young friend of your daughter making that statement. I know it blessed your heart also because every parent should be concerned and prayerful about the influences in our young sons and daughters life. I know that I am very prayerful regarding my grandchildren and great grandchildren. What is out there in the world could be very depressing if we didn't know that it is God's purpose and desires that all of households be saved in brought into the Kingdom of God before it is too late.
I am thankful for your tender heart Donna and that you do care. Besides that, we all need you here with us giving us encouragement and insight. Balance is very important and we do get carried away with all of rantings and soap box standing.
Love you sis,
Grany
What a nice message, grany, thank you, how sweet.
I, too, am upset with this election and what is going on in the world.
And now Bush wants to give away the Golan Heights? Unbelievable!
End Time video on Appariations
This is long but worth watching. Especally @ 1:15. Of course we hope to be "caught up" before much more happens but-we may also have to witness more supernatural events so it's beneficial to know what's going on now & possibly in the future as well.
Some scholars talk of our physical dimension & the spiritual dimension either overlapping or passageways opening into our realm. This would of course increase the freqency/intensity of "signs & wonders" as predicted in the Bible for the end times.
Donna,
This one for you - it's a little "
"overboard"
I'm trying very hard to understand: Christian people, who I have long admired for their faith, are supporting Obama. I'm from Ill. and have been folling Obamas stand on the Child Born Alive Protection Act since it was intoduced in the Ill. senate. He has been against providing protection for these little ones from the beginning, claiming it undermines the mothers choice of aborting the child. How does support of someone who would allow 'the least of these' to die, alone and uncared for, square with the Word of God? Just trying to understand.
Jamie
I haven't time to read the comments since we are leaving for the airport to go back to home.
Donna
my comments about research came off a little harsher than I had intended-really sorry about that. Many of the comments Lisa made have been common knowledge or at least have been extensively discussed by conservatives at wnd, american spectator, american thinker, glenn beck and elsewhere for sometime now-starting during the primaries. There have also been a number of books written containing much of this information. It's not that i think McCain is better in most of these things but he is definitely not as bad. wnd had a bumper sticker that about summed it up-better a known socialist than an unknown communist.
i just got the impression from your comment that you were unaware of at least some of what Lisa said so my statement should actually have encouraged you to do some reading on what various people have had to say about BHO.
College associate editor says 'Obama is my Jesus'
'I've officially been saved, and soon, the rest of the country will be too' (Grany-Can you remember anytime in history w/the presidential elections that anyone would give this title to a candidate?)
"And the beast was given the power of speech ..." (Revelation 13:5) Obama may not be the Anti-Christ but the people who come to power in the 10 Nation confederacy may also be given "the power of speech." I think Obama definately has that quality.
***He may just be one of the 10 leaders ready to go before the AC shows up.
Keep your eyes on the global developments of the IMF-International Monetary Fund
Clip from "Cutting Edge" I thought was good.
"Notice that God promised special End of the Age judgment upon those who would divide Israel.
"I will gather all nations and will bring them down into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and there will I deal with and execute judgment upon them for [their treatment of] My people and of My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations ... because they have divided My land." (Joel 3:2; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary)
God has brought the Gentile nations of the world into " the Valley of Jehoshaphat" (Middle East), as the End of the Age is now here, and God is preparing to bring His judgment down upon the peoples who have badly treated the Jews and who have "divided My land"! Taking the Golan Heights away from Israel so he can give it to the Syrian enemy will bring judgment upon President Bush's head and upon America.
Aren't we privileged to live in a time like this, when we can see so many instances where prophecy is either being fulfilled, or the stage for its fulfillment is being set, in our Daily News?
Is Obama Messiah? This site has it all-a collaboration of things (media,video,print) related to the topic.
I find it a farce and somewhat humerous but maybe I'm underestimating the whole thing.
Well I didn't mean to cause all of this commotion.
I am not trying to defend him. I'm just concerned at people (in general) misrepresenting what he says, how he votes and what he really stands for.
He explained his stand on abortion and protecting the child born alive. He said protecting the child born alive has always been on the books in Ill.
That was not the part of the law he was basing his vote on because it was already on the books.
But, of course, people twisted it around and make it look like he would not want to see a child born alive taken care of.
Now I am basing this on the last presidential debate. There may be lots more to this that I don't know about, espec after reading Jamie's comment.
As for someone calling him the Messiah, all kinds of people say all kinds of things.
I'm just afraid some "nut" will assasinate him or one of his family members if he is elected.
Maybe I am totally off base with all of my concerns.
I just see him as someone who really wants to make some positive changes.
Do I think he has the experience, etc, etc,? NO!
Do I agree with everything he says? NO!
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"Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know" (Jer 33:3-4).
Quote for the day-off & running.(We're going to see the Billy Graham movie tonight.)
Lisa, I have never known of a candidate being proclaimed Messiah or for that matter, anyone else. People used to have more common sense than to disrespect such a Holy designation. I am afraid that we have allowed the profane and common to devalue someone who is very precious and for that we will be judged. That is next to laughing in the face of God.
But haven't we seen all of this taking place on a gradual decline into the profane for quite some time now? We have been bombarded with four letter conversations to the point the general public doesn't even blink anymore. The moral decay that requires abortion, that we pat on the back and hold our noses over evil sexual perversions of all kinds because they have the right? to live their life as they chose, that we allow filth on the movies and TV and allow our children to watch, listen and learn? We could have done something about it when it first started but people allowed this to happen and it only grows worse with each passing hour.
The value of human life is -0-, ziltz, nada, nothing. The meaning of honor, long time gone, and the value of just being being honest went up in smoke when the lies were honored and the truth was trampled on by the press and all others. WE have valued the "Stars" above the Word of God and tried to be just like the world. We are no longer a peculiar people, set apart for God's glory. We look, act, and talk just like the world but we expect God to honor and bless us anyway. We tend to call people "Extremist" if they desire and stand up for what is Holy and Honorable and laugh at their worship and times of being in the presence of God.
I say we, because WE haven't done a thing to bring correction to irreverent individuals or groups. CNN is a very good example of what has gone wrong in this country and in the world. Then we complained when ABC, CBS, and NBC followed suit. Why not, the people were eating it up. We cry for the truth and pursue fantasy! What a bunch of mixed up, deceived individuals. But to think that anyone can bring about change in a country that has already been changed radically for the worst is a fairy tale. No man is going to change this nation, it will take each and every one of us to determine to live our lives as pleasing unto God and Him alone.
Now, aren't you glad you got me on my soup box? Yeah, I said soup! Soap will wash away our stains but soup, well it will fill you up but not out. Out of this world and it's degregation.
Grany
Great post, once again, Grany!
You know how to hit the nail on the head!
As far as Christians voting Democrat...obviously the decision is not based on the abortion issue.
We have had pro-life people in the White House for 8 yrs and that issue remains the same.
Even Palin has stated she thinks it ought to be up to the states, even though she personally is pro-life.
I think people are just really, really upset with this current administation, when it comes to so many other issues, and they just do not want more of the same.
Personally, I had planned on voting for McCain.
I have to say that I am getting really turned off to some of the stuff that has been going on with the whole thing, including some of the things Palin has been saying.
I am getting so turned off to the whole thing! Its all a real embarrassment.
Lisa,
Let us know what you think of the Billy Graham movie, okay?
I read from one of my newletters (and I'm not recalling which one now, either, sorry about that) where Billy Graham wasn't endorsing the movie. Other than that, I dunno. So, I am curious. If you find out why, please let us know, okay?
Donna,
I believe just about every one has had the same thoughts about Obama, ending up like JFK, if elected. No one wants to see that happen.
Grany,
We've been on a "slippery slope" in this country for sometime now.
We need Revival in the land.
Donna, I have to do with words because I couldn't see the head of nail if my life depended on it.
By the way, Lisa, I enjoyed that "Overboard" video link you left for Donna immensely and brought hubby running to see what I was rolling on the floor over. I have sent it to everyone one of my uptight and enjoyable friends. I think you should go and post it at Joel's Trumpet also.
They need something to laugh over.
Grany
In all seriousness everyone, I am asking all of you here to keep this country and all of its leaders held up in prayer. We will never overcome the works of the devil by sitting around complaining and not doing what we were really called to do. Praying! If even a tenth of the believers prayed for this nation and our leaders, we would see drastic changes come about because God would be in the midst of it all. If we don't take our prayers seriously to the Lord, don't expect anything to change, except to get worse.
Revival is right but a true revival brings us back to serving God as His people should. It isn't about 3 songs, a sermon and a call to the altar. It begins with dedicated prayer, witnessing and more prayer. Then when our hearts are tender and we stop being "natural humans" and become Born Again believers, revival happens.
We'll have that outpouring when that happens and not until.
Grany
I just watched the overboard video, Lisa! Funny!
(hopefully no one got hurt!)
Grany,
Amen. to your comments on revival!
Donna,
I thought you'd like that! Some may be "overboard" but aren't we all on the "Love" boat?
Jib,
Would you like to tackle the Tony Blair Faith Foundation-in your spare time? (Like you have any.)
With your educational background I thought you may have some particular insight in discerning the actual motivation behind this man. Tony Blair Faith Foundation I think he may be a top player in this "global system" were all going to have to deal with & someone to keep our eyes on.
I remember hearing some not to keen quotes from him. His main objective is how to merge various faiths in the globalization process.
"...that values misunify & not divide us." (And what does that mean?)
Hello everyone. Am talking with ALesia. She says hi. Still very sore and recuperating.
I hurt my back - cannot sit down - so I am typing this on my knees. Reminds me of my early days attending Mass.
Mac, praying for your praying position.
Grany
come on mac's back, he knee'ds you!
Marge,
Movie review on Graham.
My biggest impression-the actor who plays Billy is really really cute.
The pros- Nice story line,good acting, & romantic humerous parts.
The Con-They spent way too much time on showcasing a close friend of Billy Graham by the name of Charles Templeton. There were several flashbacks of Templeton in a Hospital bed recounting his life with Billy.
We wished the movie would have focused more on different aspects Graham's life & cut out 90% of the Templeton parts.
It gave you a split feeling in the end. One-Graham's faith was strong & positive but Templeton who was a preacher had a spiritual breakdown because he couldn't grasp why a loving God would let needless cruelty flourish.He even renounced Christ as the Son of God and remained an unbeliever unto his death.
So it was a sweet & sour experience & there were only a few couples watching this movie w/us. Basically empty. I don't know if it's because of the reviews or if people are so anti-religious these days they just aren't interested & want more of an "entertainment" factor.
The above link on Templeton was written by his son. Interesting Bio. The last book he wrote was called" "Farewell to God" in 1995.(Soon after this book came out he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's.)
So I'm left somewhat sad thinking about the state in which Templeton died as my final impression of the movie.
HI Marge,
I sure hope nothing like that happens to Obama.
There are a lot of rednecks out there, who I don't think would handle it if he won.
At one of the rallys people were yelling "kill him"...and no one did anything to try to stop them as far as I know.
The whole thing has gotten so out of control...worse than anything I have ever seen.
oh well...I'm going back to watch the baseball game.
Mac, I hope your back heals...and Alesia your jaw, Grany your eyes, and you all are in my prayers. :)
<><
Hi Lisa,
I guess our posts crossed paths.
Thank you for the review...and how sad about Charles.
Mac,
That's one way to get you down
on your knees! (I better watch what I say or I'll be next!)
You probably have some type of liniment to rub on it but a massage theripist introduced me to
BIOFREEZE and it works well for a sore back. A good one to have on hand.
Thanks for the prayers. I'm actually beginning to feel a little better.
I found a good article explaining why Templeton slid down into unbelief. The slippery slide to unbelief.A famous evangelist
goes from hope to hopelessness
"One wonders whether Templeton would ever have written his Farewell to God, had the Church in his day rejected the billions of years, shown the fallible nature of the dating methods, and taught clearly that there could be no death, disease and bloodshed before sin. "
(The whole article is worth reading.)
Donna, I was just watching the (Wall Street) Journal Editorial Report which reported the Scranton Times reported the "kill him" comment made at a Palin rally. They (the Times) then reported that they asked many at the rally, including police and secret service, and no one heard the comment. The Times is still standing by their story, according to the JER. I'm relating this from memory and I wish I had listened to the report with both ears, but I was busy reading other things while watching tv, so sorry if I got small details wrong. The basics I'm sure of.
Then, just a few minutes ago on CNN, they showed McCain supporters making sickening comments about Obama (though no "kill him" comments. Embarrassing, maddening and sad.
I have wondered if someone will try to take him out, too. I truly hope not, not only for Obama's sake but I think it would cause rioting and unrest. Remember Rodney King? And this would be nationwide.
Ugh, almost 11:30, way past my bedtime!
Anne, my concerns would also extend to possible rioting and bloodshed if Obama does not win the election. Bad behaviour is being enacted by both sides, infortunately - they're just not being documented by the likes of CNN.
Lisa,
Thanks for the movie review! I had never heard of this other Evangelist. Maybe it's why Billy Graham doesn't endorse the movie? (if I got that one right.) Anyhow, many thanks for taking the time to do a a very good, movie review :)
Donna,
I hope we're wrong. But, I have had this sense (for many monthes now) that if Obama wins the Presidental election, someone will take him out.
Let's pray that never happens.
We need revival in the land. Now, the sooner the better.
Hey Marge,
I just want to thank you again for praying for Tim. It's only been three days since his surgery and he is doing amazingly well. The Lord has blessed him with a very speedy recovery!
Have a blessed Sunday all...
Oh, any John Piper fans out there...I'm reading Spectacular Sins...it will set your soul aflame and make you fall in love with Jesus even more!
Mac...praying for a speedy recovery for you.
Kathy,
Praise God! God is good, and good all the time!
God's richest blessings upon all!
Mac,
Ditto :)
Thanks for the prayers, everyone. I'm actually able to sit down for short periods now.
My Grace is Sufficient For You
New post is up.
Thanks for praying for the sook's back. Nothing but whinging lately!
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