Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Rev 21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
Rev 21:6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
Rev 21:7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
149 comments:
Psalm 86:11-17
11 Teach me your way, O LORD, and I will walk in your truth; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name.
12 I will praise you, O Lord my God, with all my heart; I will glorify your name forever.
13 For great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths of the grave.
14 The arrogant are attacking me, O God; a band of ruthless men seeks my life— men without regard for you.
15 But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.
16 Turn to me and have mercy on me; grant your strength to your servant and save the son of your maidservant.
17 Give me a sign of your goodness, that my enemies may see it and be put to shame, for you, O LORD, have helped me and comforted me.
Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want.
Psa 23:2 He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters.
Psa 23:3 He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.
Psa 23:4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
Psa 23:5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You have anointed my head with oil; My cup overflows.
Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life, And I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
The Leading of the Eternal God
Jim C
really good to place a face with a name however unlike Jim G I have to admit you don't look anything like I thought. your voice however is as I thought it would be.
Scott(Boro eagle), how are you doing? We haven't heard from you for awhile.
Jim C, nice job! I wonder if I would have stood out there all alone for an hour.
I sure wish Grany would get home. I miss her.
Wow, Jim C so cool!
Jim C; Just watched the video clip. Lord bless you for standing up for Israel. I have a feeling we will be seeing that those who stand for Israel will become less and less very soon. I saw that there was an anti-Israel demonstration in Paris (i think) of some 30 thousand people?! wow. as my husband said the other day, "how soon we forget history".
Diana
Oh, and my girls are home from Florida, safe and sound! They had the most wonderful time in Jupiter! They love the ocean. My oldest said though, that as soon as they hit Northern Georgia coming home her fibromyalgia started acting up again. the cold weather is not good for it but the warm Florida weather makes her feel better. If we had the money I would move there just so she would feel good!
Diana
BTW, thanks mac (and Alesia) for the wonderful new post(s)!
Diana, glad your daughters are home safe and sound
Knowing and Doing God's Will
TGIF Today God Is First Volume 2, by Os Hillman
01-11-2009
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight (Prov. 3:5-6).
George Mueller was a pastor in England during the nineteenth century who knew what it meant to live a life that was focused on knowing and doing the will of God. God led him in a walk of faith that has become an incredible testimony to all who hear his story.
Whenever he lacked for something, he prayed for the resources. During his ministry in Bristol, England, George built four orphan houses that cared for 2,000 children at the time. When he died at the age of 93, over 10,000 children had been provided for through his orphanages, and he had distributed over eight million dollars that had been given to him in answer to prayer.
How did he know and do the will of God?
"I never remember a period that I ever sincerely and patiently sought to know the will of God by the teaching of the Holy Ghost, through the instrumentality of the Word of God, but I have been always directed rightly." Here is how George summed up the way he entered into a "heart" relationship with God and learned to discern God's voice:
1) "I seek at the beginning to get my heart into such a state that it has no will of its own in regard to a given matter.
2) Having done this, I do not leave the result to feeling or simple impression. If so, I make myself liable to great delusions.
3) I seek the will of the Spirit of God through, or in connection with, the Word of God. The Spirit and the Word must be combined.
4) Next, I take into account providential circumstances. These often plainly indicate God's will in connection with His Word and Spirit.
5) I ask God in prayer to reveal His will to me aright.
Thus, (1) through prayer to God, (2) the study of the Word, and (3) reflection, I come to a deliberate judgment according to the best of my ability and knowledge, and if my mind is thus at peace, and continues so after two or three more petitions, I proceed accordingly."*
Consider these five steps when discerning God's voice in your life.
Diana,
When you had the house of barf-how long did that last?
Melanie the 4yr old complained of a somache ache for about 4 days then came up w/everything going out both ends. Now it's been over 24hrs & she will not even hold down water.
Any suggestions anyone?
Jim C. is our first "cave" movie star! BTW-You have a great smile & nice demeanor on TV!
Who knows w/all the Abortion/Marriage/Anti-Semitism/Anti-Christ events going on we just all may have a chance of some TV coverage. (Hopefully it's not as we are all loaded onto one of those cattle cars.)
Good God's Morning (well, it is still morning in Okieland) and isn't it wonderful to begin another week of 2009!
I finally got caught up with all of your comments and WOW! NATE, JIB, MAC, JIM C and JIM G. and GRACE, I was truly encouraged and enlightened by your comments. JIM C. is a TV star but he has always been a star here and what else can you expect from so gifted a person! Yes, I agree with Jib that he sounded just like I thought and I wasn't at all surprised by his physical being either. I greatly admire what you did and I know it had to be cold standing out there in the Iowa City area holding a sign in the winter. Kudos brother!
NATE I greatly agree with you on your advice to Grace about the association with the group of NA people. I have some former friends who got caught up in it in the 60's (yes, they were dabbling even then) and it was really scary. One of the girls involved loved the ouija board and one night the board actually lifted off of the table by about a foot and that is when I left the fellowship. They were good friends and I wasn't saved but I knew it was bad medicine just the same. I voiced my opinion and why I was leaving this practice and they all laughed except for the one girl who was Catholic and she agreed it was evil. They later gave up on that stuff but there was just something about it that was telling me to turn away and run for my life.
Do you think that God protects those who will become his prior to their conversion? There were so many things that happened in my young life that sends the hair on my head straight up just thinking about them. Weird things! Not like Lisa's UFO's but close. I think He does and for a reason! We are his whether we know it or not and there were a lot of prayers of righteous people being lifted up for us (my father had passed away when I was 2 years old and mother was expecting her 3rd child but was only a month pregnant). As I have related at other times, we had a 4Square Gospel church across the street that we loved to attend in the winter and those people knew how to pray manna from heaven.
Oh, the stories that could be told but then that might cause a fuss and you know what that leads to.
Anyway, the main thing is to guard your hearts that you be not deceived so as to lead you away from the gospel of salvation. I know we are all confident that we would never have to fear that concept but Jesus told us to Guard our hearts and that is good enough for me.
Grany
Nate,
I think it is a wonderful idea to have Jim C.'s picture here!
Jim C.,
Way to go! One person does make a difference.
Wilma,
Good to see you back posting!
Everyone,
Have a great day in the Lord Jesus Christ! Be blessed by His presense!
Nate,
Your quote:
"What does that mean really? Sliding into a sinful life or making a declaration that you don't believe in Jesus Christ anymore?"
I think it's ignoring the call of the Holy Spirit to a point that you break the 1st commandment and slide into a sinful "Life-style". You are deliberately rejecting Christ by your choice of what is more attractive. Sin (satan) or Christ.
It's all about the heart condition & we know who reads our hearts. Nothing is hidden. We are sinful in nature & are eternally secure in the blood of Jesus as long as our hearts are right with Him. We sin so much that I'm sure we don't even know the 1/2 of it. Just by thoughts on a matter. Is it a pure motivation or a sinful selfish one?
Anything not done "in Christ" is not counted for a reward & is tossed out.
We are all declared righteous through the blood of Christ. Some people through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit actually transform into a "holy" status. I suppose that means even most of their thoughts come from a Christ/pure source.
Remember the scripture:
Matthew 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Matt 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment.
As we learn to walk in the Spirit and die to our own wills- as we keep moving forward (which is the intended goal) we will come to hate sin & for the most part "sin no more." That's the battle of the flesh & it is one tough fight. Sometimes we take three steps forward and two steps back. We are all individuals and spiritually mature at different rates. But-the moment you make that decision for Christ no matter how much you're in sin-your washed clean & saved through His grace.
I mean to make the decision in Christ to follow & obey Him. Not just say "I believe Christ died for my sins"-then keep on w/the former lifestyle.
That is not dying to self- coming to God in a childlike humility & allowing Him to take the wheel of your life. He does not force us to give up our selfish wills but woos us into a relationship through His love. Anything forced & done out of simple habit/tradition & not out of love for Him is not rewarded.
It's really pretty simple. God's desire & our purpose for being is that He wants us to love Him. God-the awesome unfathomable creator of all wants us little human specks to love Him. When you follow the 1st Commandment you're eternally secure. Your heart is in the right place.
When I was in my personal backslid days I knew what I was doing. I knew it everyday. Knew it was wrong & even felt guilty about it. But yet-I continued to to things my way but w/a dull ear to what I knew to be right. I was rejecting following Christ.
What did I "think" about my eternal security? I was hoping for the best. Hoping those OSAS believers were right-then I had nothing to worry about. I could continue on "as is" without any concern. Was I a new creation in Christ & born again? No. Did I believe Christ died for my sins? Yes. Did I know God's laws & right from wrong? Yes. Did I follow Christ? No.
As you know what I think now is far different that what I had hoped for then. When I came back I was not taught some theological concept-it's just from reading the Bible. This is what the Spirit has spoken to my spirit & what I see in the Word.
Thankfully, through God's mercy & grace I was not killed in my stupid
days & eventually rescued from myself. So as some believe they were always right with God even in their backslid days- I do not.
(That I think is the main point of the disagreement.) To be "born again" is to be exactly that. A new creation "in Christ" transfomed through the continual work of the Holy Spirit out of His grace & a gift to us.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
**Any yes I believe you can even be born again & fall away. Otherwise God's word would not have so many warnings against such things. It would be pointless. If we were on auto-pilot then there would be nothing to "overcome."
And nothing can "snatch" or forcefully grab away a person "in Christ." (It would have to be a personal decision to ignore the Holy Spirit or by being misled into an apostate religion.-That is what all the warnings are about.)
AMEN - AMEN - AMEN!!!
Lisa - that was by far your greatest post.
Obviously, by that statement, I couldn't agree more.
Well done!
Jim C - Good on you, brother!
Pretty sad though that you were the lone representative for Israel.
I also snatched your pic from the video and you sound EXACTLY how I thought you would.
Lisa, very well put and girl, you have grown tremendously in the past year! Well done good and faithful servant should sound great to your heart and ears.
You all know that we are in for a fast road trip from this day forward. We have to keep each other lifted up and being built on the sure foundation that Jesus Christ is Lord and none other, we can't lose sight of the truth. We have to care enough to come along side each other and bear their burdens and share their joys. What a great group of believers this special site has and I truly do love you all.
I have been reading and listening to Perry Stone's new DVD on Revelation and it is great. He even provided a syllabus that is proving to be a great big blessing. I encourage you all to consider getting this one. There is over 10 hours of teaching on 5 DVD's and is it ever great. Lots of new teaching and I am just enjoying it greatly.
Received a new book of teaching and opinions from Dwight Pentecost and I am reading it also. Someone else on here said they never have less than 3 or 4 books going at the same time. Hey, I thought I was the only one doing that but have you ever heard of homogenized reading? Well, that is what happens and sometimes it can be distressing. Now who said what and where did I put the book sort of thing. I am keeping notes this time and when you consider I just finished my Bullinger book on Revelation, is it any wonder I don't have a firm idea of who the Antichrist is or the False Prophet or the ID of the two witnesses. I figure that is up to God to keep it all in order and according to his preselection so why worry one little iota.
Marge, I would attempt getting back on my email but I have over 1000 messages and it is a nightmare. So, I am doing some housekeeping with them and eventually I will get it all sorted and zipped out. Hope you are doing just fine in your new Ark and when the dove doesn't come back home, get out and see if those people are still so ungodly there in the great NW. I have been praying for you all (Kathy, Grace and Marge, plus Jim G. and Stacy if I remember right. I love rivers, oceans and ponds but not in my backyard.
Love you all,
Grany
Lisa,
I pray that this is not what your daughter has but you should know that the CDC is investigating a salmonella outbreak that has hit people in 42 states. The latest news is that it may be tied to a batch of peanut butter.
I'm not a medical professional but I have read that salmonella causes cramping and of course vomiting.
Lord, please touch Lisa's daughter. Comfort her and heal her in your name we pray. Thank you Lord. Amen.
I posted this near the end of the last thread. For those who missed it and are interested in understanding both sides of the "eternal security" debate more fully, this is a great (and rather short) article by a wonderful man of God.
The Question, "What Is an Arminian?" Answered by a Lover of Free Grace
by John Wesley
Are any of my premises incorrect? If not, is the logic of this argument flawed?
Premise #1: Jesus saves. There is no other name under heaven whereby we can be saved.
Premise #2: We are saved by God’s grace through faith.
Premise #3: Children are “saved” (not damned to hell if they die as a child). I assume this is because children have faith and God counts their faith in Him as righteousness.
Premise #4: Not all adults are saved.
Conclusion: Therefore, it is possible for a person to lose their salvation (in Christ as a child but not in Christ as an adult).
By the way, I think it is good to wrestle with our understanding of our blessed assurance (as long as we are gracious and loving towards one another).
I also think it is important to understand the nature of apostacy and what it is since it is a sign of the end times.
Either it is people who were never saved and were just playing a game having their true colors revealed (which wouldn't be a bad thing)
OR
Apostacy is the act of people who were saved, abandoning the faith and ceasing to abide or remain in Christ (which would be a bad thing).
I think the Bible warns against apostacy as if it is a bad thing that should be guarded against.
For those of you who are in the "eternal security" camp, PLEASE don't take offense at this 1st link. I think it helps explain the difficulty that those of us from an Arminian or Wesleyan perspective have. It might even characterize the perspective of our Catholic brothers and sisters. Jim Carroll, you'd have to confirm that for us.
Where Calvinism Leads
I found this good, too.
X-Calvinist Corner -- This page is only intended for the use of X-Calvinists who want to share their stories of embracing and then rejecting Calvinism….My hope is that this will serve as an encouragement to those who may be leaving Calvinism or have recently left Calvinism. My hope is also that it may have an impact on those who are considering embracing Calvinism.
Nate,
You asked Lisa:
Are you saying that you would lose your salvation as a result of a sinful life?
I'm in the same camp as Lisa on this. Forgive me Lisa if this doesn't characterize your position. I think we view sin as a symptom of not abiding by faith in Christ. I definitely struggle with sin. It is a question of faith.
It is ceasing to have faith in Christ that separates us from God. That was the case in the Old Testament and it is also the case of the New Testament that we live under.
God is no respector of persons. Just as David prayed that the Lord would not take His Holy Spirit from him, I believe we too should pray this when He convicts us of sin (which is the result of a lack of faith).
At what point a Christian leaves the body of Christ, I don't know. But I have seen it happen to some very committed believers -- people who confessed, repented, were baptized, worshipped, served, fellowshipped, and grew in the Lord for many years. Then they were hurt or simply got careless or casual with their faith and over time, completely abandoned the faith. No, not just abandoned the faith. They are now opposed to the faith they once held.
I know, some will say that those folks were never really saved to begin with. That seems to me to be backwards rationalization to justify a doctrinal stance that has already been firmly taken.
Many of us just see warnings in Scripture about falling away as warnings to Christians. We are 100% safe and secure in Christ. God has sovereignly chosen to give man a choice to accept His lifeline or drown. He doesn't force us though. We aren't robots. Unlike the animals, we were created in His image.
Kathy,
Send Kristin over for this conversation if you can.
Jim G; you make some salient points along the same lines that Alesia and I were discussing just a few minutes ago.
It was a great conversation - we should all think about doing a conference Bible study sometime in the future.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
2Pe 1:11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
PS Nate - good idea re having Jim C's pic here at the cave!
Jim C - I do believe Hyde thinks very highly of you!
One more thought...
When does sanctification take place? Can a person be sanctified outside of Christ or before they accept him as Lord and Savior? Isn't sanctification understood as something that the Lord does in us (and continues to do in us) after we are in Him?
If sanctification happens to people in Christ, then the following passage definitely appears to be written to those who were already saved. And if that is true, then it is a warning about losing one's salvation as best as I can see.
Hebrews 10:25-39
25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38 But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him." 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
Thanks, all, re: your comments on my TV Time. I only hope that I came across making sense and not as a thoughtful idiot.
<><
This link was posted at the OL today! Coincidence? I confess that I've never read this Christian classic. This is a series of animations depicting the story.
The Pilgrim's Progress- Part 1
Jim C; you definitely made sense.
But Nate,
How can they be sanctified if they haven't even been saved yet?
Nate,
The Greek word translated “we” in Hebrews 10:26 is “hemon.”
Hemon means “we” and that would include the author of Hebrews. I assume he was saved. The Bible’s text simply doesn’t support your interpretation Nate (the idea that this passage refers to people who aren't quite saved yet). At least I don’t see how it can.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins…
Other places where we see the Greek word “hamon” (translated to “we” in English) used in the NT.
The following is taken from the short article I posted a link to January 11, 2009 at 3:33 PM titled Where Calvinism Leads.
WARNING
This summary is of where Calvinism leads (which includes the idea of OSAS) may offend some. If you read the full article though, I trust you'll see that the author didn't intend it to offend those who come from a Calvinist theological understanding of God's Word. Nor do I. I post it here simply because it articulates well (and concisely) some of the problems those of us from an Arminian/Wesleyan theological understanding of God's Word have with some (not all) of the tenants of Calvinism. Neither the author of the article, nor I, think that Calvinists embrace the ultimate conclusions of where Calvinism seems to lead.
From Where Calvinism Leads
I am very troubled by the logical implications that the Calvinist philosophy forces Christians to embrace. And also the image of the Christian "God" presented to the world.
Calvinism, when consistently taken to its logical conclusions, implies all of the following:
1. God's offers of salvation to "whosoever will" are insincere. God is not completely honest in Scripture.
2. God offers to save the non-elect IF they will do what is utterly impossible. God taunts the damned.
3. God created most people for the purpose of torturing them forever. God is cruel and sadistic.
4. God CAN save all, and DESIRES to save all, but chooses to damn many for no apparent reason. God is insane.
5. God controls Satan's every move, and every wicked act of the most vile sinner. God is the source of all evil.
Changing the subject a bit;-)
Listen to the sermon dated 12-31-08.
If you can get past the initial joke, the sermon is very good.
It's Time To Wake Up!
Ezekiel 36-39
Prophecy Update 2008/2009
One answer. Though I confess I need to ponder this further.
Is Hebrews 10:26-30 speaking of believers or unbelievers?
Mac,
Good article. I noticed the author said:
....Or was he writing to genuine believers of the serious consequences of apostasy from the standpoint of God’s judgment in this life and the loss of rewards in the future kingdom? I personally favor the last viewpoint. I believe the author is referring to genuine believers as the “sanctified.”
I obviously agree with the author that the passage is written to believers. I find it difficult to see how this passage could simply be referring to "loss of rewards in the future kingdom" though.
How can one equate "loss of rewards" with "a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God"? I'd take the former over the latter any day though I'd like to avoid both!
Lexicon results for the NT Greek word "krisis" which is rendered “judgment” in Hebrews 10:27
John Piper gives his view:
WOE TO THOSE WHO TRAMPLE THE SON OF GOD Hebrews 10:26-31)
Mac,
You're really good at coming up with articles that are on point! Is Mr. Hyde helping you?
That John Piper article is thought provoking but I remain unconvinced by his logic. Piper wrote:
In Hebrews 3:14 he says, "For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end", meaning that if we do not hold fast to the end, then we "had not become a partaker of Christ." Failure to persevere in faith is not a sign of losing salvation but of never having been a partaker of Christ.
If we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, that positively does imply that "we have become partakers of Christ." But Piper's conclusion that if we do not hold fast to the end, then we "had not become a partaker of Christ." That conclusion simply does not necessarily follow. Finishing a race certainly means that a person started the race but that does not mean that if a person doesn't finish a race, then they must have never really started the race.
You have to start and persevere in order to finish but starting does not guarantee you will finish. Failing to persevere to the end simply does not imply that a person never started the race. In fact, a person could start and even persevere for a while but then quit when tribulation comes.
The question is not whether or not we are secure in Christ. Both sides agree we are secure in Him. The question is whether it is possible for a believer to stop abiding in Christ. Unfortunately, I've witnessed it.
"The question is whether it is possible for a believer to stop abiding in Christ."
Don't worry, as Alesia knows, I do know where you're coming from and I'm far from determined on this. I'm throwing these articles into the mix for balanced discussion.
I do believe it's too easy to explain away that in the event that someone permanently turns his/her back on Christ they weren't saved in the first place. 2 Peter 1:10 is a sobering warning in my view.
We should think of our lives as Christ did, a vine, and a gentile believer as grafted into that vine.
If we stop drawing our life force from that vine, we will wither and eventually die.
What happens to dead branches? They either break off in a storm or they get pruned off.
David drew away from God, but he came back to God before he was "completely" dead.
John 15:4 "Remain with me and I with you, Just as a branch cannot give fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, even so you cannot unless you remain with me."
vs 6: "Unless a man remains with me, he will be cast outside like a branch which is withered, which they pick up an throw into the fire to be burned."
"Cling" to Christ our vine and life-giving force, our maker, creator, Lord and God.
Nate,
You asked:
How does one know then that they are not saved anymore?
Doesn't the Holy Spirit in us bear witness to the Holy Spirit in our brothers and sisters?
If they are not saved anymore, is that the end for them or is there a chance to return and be re-saved again?
I think the parable of the prodigal son answers your question about whether it is possible for a son who was lost to come back. Interestingly, the father in that parable says that his son was dead. Obviously the father in the parable did not know whether his son was physically dead. It was a comment about the relationship. It was severed. Dead. The good news is that when the son returned to the father, his father welcomed him with open arms. I don't think that the son's decision to return was controlled by the father in the parable.
I like what Lori said. The key is abiding. Why would Christ admonish his disciples to abide if it is inevitable that all believers will abide? It's about where you are, not what you do. What you do (works) is the result of where you choose to remain in response to God's lovingkindness and revelation.
lisa,
I have been busy with work and am just now catching up. How is your daughter today? My first sick kid was vomiting for 12 hours, the others were for shorter times but my husband was sick for over 24 hours. I would call the doc if she is still sick today, don't want her dehydrated.
ISRAEL/EUROPE/RUSSIAN NEWS
UN condemns Israel, 33 to 1
IDF Attacks 60 Targets in Gaza, Intelligence Videos Released
Israel 'End of operation is closer than ever'
Iran warns Hamas not to accept truce
U.S. probes European banks over Iran violations: report
Russia-Ukraine pipeline deal unravels
EU still waiting for Russian gas
Vatican to join EU judicial co-operation group
Blair reappears on shortlist to head EU as the first full-time president
Medvedev takes apparent swipe at Putin
SCIENCE NEWS
Here's George Jetson... World's first flying car prepares for take-off
Mystery Roar Detected From Faraway Space There is "something new and interesting going on in the universe.."
US NEWS
US public schools teaching the ABC's of Islam
Obama climate czar has socialist ties: Group sees 'global governance' as solution
HATE BILL INTRODUCED INTO CONGRESS!
UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Threatens the US Families and Home Ed.
Shalom, all. A couple of things here:
1. Simply put, my contracted position has been terminated, so I'm in job-seeking mode now. Prayers requested.
(Normally I'd be down at unemployment filling out forms, etc., but there's a blizzard on its way in, and just feel the urge to stay inside and be comfy warm.)
2. For some reason known only to G_D and daughters, my oldest is going to Chicago at this moment. She was planning on going with some friends to a Microsoft programmer's day-long programming seminar (not to learn anything new, they just want to renew the leases on their souls) on Tuesday, and drive back on Wednesday. Upon learning of the onrushing blizzard, they immediately changed their plans to leave RIGHT NOW and try to reach Chicago before the frost fairies can catch them and have their way with them. So for the next 3 hours and 45 minutes I'll be waiting for that cell phone call that starts out, "Dad, I'm sorry, you were right, thanks for insisting we bring along extra food and water and a blanket..."
3. Mac, yes, I'd like a copy of that picture of me. Just click on my name and email it to my gmail account. Thanks.
crawling back to bed now...
Oh, and Lisa, if your daughter is STILL throwing up today (i.e., for 24 straight hours), take her to the hospital ASAP.
The snow just started falling...
<><
Nate, you asked "How does one know then that they are not saved anymore?
If they are not saved anymore, is that the end for them or is there a chance to return and be resaved again?"
I know you inquired of Jim G. but my precious brother in Christ, I just have this burden to respond to you also.
I totally believe that we can turn our backs against God and walk away, far away! But that doesn't mean that God walks away from us or stops loving us. All it takes is a repentant heart and bended knee crying out to Abba to forgive us. But Jesus said that he would not lose any that God had given him and that is far more important than what theologians have to say.
When I walked away from my fellowship with God, I was angry and hurt to the point of wanting to just die. There was nothing but grief and despair facing me everyday. The two most loved people in my life had decided to leave me and moved 500 miles away telling me they didn't love me, want me, or need me. It still breaks my heart and I was so angry with God
because of it. My whole adult life had been built on loving and caring for them and they were gone. If I told you that tears can get very troublesome that would be the understatement of the year for me.
I walked, no I ran away from the Loving Abba because I thought he had turned His back on me and had allowed this thing to happen. I still grieve over the lost years and they are the most painful part of my life here on earth. You cannot know the things that went through my head and they were dastardly deeds to the human mind.
Not once in the darkest of those times did I feel God's condemnation or reproach; instead I was being wooed by a wonderful Holy Spirit when I was asleep or so worn out that I couldn't think.
God does not leave us and the Holy Spirit is the wooer not us. Then there came a time of physical exhaustion that nearly took my life and during that time my spirit sagged to the point of suicide. But God had other plans for me and I happened to have a friend that told me about a famous child psychiatrist who needed a trained associate in his office. I applied, got the job and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. The tears had to stop but they didn't. The kids I had direct contact with were a blessing to me and I had to dig deep for my professional attitude.
God chastens us because he loves us but he is not the author of evil and is not a control freak.
We have a mandate from Christ who says if we fall into sin to be quick to confess our sins and repent from them. Sinning is easy but for some reason it is a human trait to resist humbling ourselves before a mighty God.
My whole life has been transformed because of what I went through during those horrible years and yes, they were terrible. However, I know that I know God loves me so much that if it needed to be, Christ would have died for just me on that cross. I don't buy into lost salvation
because of what I have experienced but I do know that it is not wise to tempt God.
When someone likens salvation to a hit and miss situation with saved, lost, saved, lost I don't see it in the bible. I do see not living in fellowship and righteousness as a problem because of pride but I know what it is like to be separated from my loved ones and that is not much different than our broken fellowship with Christ. What ever you do as a Born Again Believer you do unto Christ. Where ever you go, whatever you do you are taking Christ's Spirit with you, whether it be to God's glory or to Christ's shame. Jesus didn't condemn the sinner he healed them and told them to go and not sin anymore.
One last thought on this, at least for now! Jesus likened himself to a good shepherd and his purpose was to tend the flock (Believers) and keep the wolves out (unbelief, fear, doubts, bad theology (just had to add that one), and all manner of weapons that are formed against you by the enemy of your soul. A shepherd's crook was used to catch a lamb, ewe or ram that left the flock and bring them back. It was also used to break the leg or legs of the persistent rebelling member and that required the Shepherd to carry them back to the flock on his shoulders. If that happens it then becomes necessary for the shepherd to continue carrying them the rest of their life.
More on that last scene later but I am not one who believes God will stand silently by and let a believer be separated forever. That wooing Holy Spirit can sing a song that even the hardest of hearts hears and comes weeping to the Father forsaking his riotous life.
Just my opinion Nate so take it for what it is worth.
Shalom
Grany
Nate,
I heard those verses taught on once, from a Kenneth E. Hagin tape, which made a lot of sense to me. I wrote about this before, in fact. And I forgot (initially) to say, that according to Kenneth Hagin, only mature believers fall in the category here. (to answer the question about how would a person know they were out of fellowship with God) There is a progression in Hebrews 6:4, 5. ...once enlightened, tasted of the heavenly fruit, made partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted of the word of God, and the powers of the world to come...
To taste of the powers of the world to come, would be a mature believer, who willingly walks away from God, their salvation, and goes back into the world, and rejects the Gospel.
As Kenneth Hagin's custom, he told a story of a woman, who'd been a minister of the Gospel. She became deceived, turned her back on God, and willingly went back into the world. When praying for her, after some time had past, the Lord told Kenneth Hagin to stop praying for that woman. That she had fallen into the Heb. 6: 4, 5 Scripture, and her heart was now hardened, and would never return to God.
End of teaching.
Okay, I dunno. However, I DO believe there comes a time, when people become so hardened against God, that the Holy Spirit withdraws. And without the Holy Spirit drawing people to God, can a person come to God? Believer, or Unbeliever.
All I know is that it's good to walk as close to God as we can. It's just a good place to be, because God is love. Like Lori said, abiding in the vine.
I hope this helps.
Romans8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I'll throw in my two cents. Oh, by the way, hi everybody! Looking good at the solo Israel support rally Jim C!
I believe that a person who is TRULY saved cannot be separated from God. I don't see how these words from Paul are valid otherwise. And I believe all the words in the Bible are valid and true.
We have been set free from the power of sin and death! We should live like that's true. Our continued sin only affects our relationship and communion with God.
If you can give your salvation back, how many sins does it take to do that, or do you have to renounce your faith altogether.
I don't pretend to be an expert in this (or any other) area.
Dave
Nate,
From what I understand there are two different types of loosing salvation.
I loved Lori's "vine" description. We can't pinpoint at what exact time someone is considered
"lost". Again-God is the reader of hearts so all we can do is leave that to Him.
We all sin but are no longer "sinners" while actively following Christ. His blood has washed us clean. So there is nothing to be concerned with unless you loose your 1st love.(Break the 1st commandment-as everything else stems from that one.)
One type is "falling away" but that means you can return back to Christ. You can be lured away, distracted, or tricked by a false religion. In this instance the Holy Spirit will always call you back. Lost sheep or Prodigal son story. (It was not a lost wolf. An animal out of the fold)
It was an animal that had already been in the family fold (saved) who strayed away. Became lost (unsaved) found (re-saved). And the joy that brings to God is incomprehensible.
When Jesus speaks of "Sheep" it seems like he speaks of something He already owns. As a shepherd who tends his flock. They are already adopted Sons of God in the fold so to speak. "My sheep hear my voice & they follow me". If your following Christ then your a sheep.
If your a lost son-you are already a part of a family. Already saved and adopted into God's family.But the lost son-got lost-he willingly left his family (no longer actively followed Christ) but later realized his foolishness & returned.
The amazing grace part is that even when we choose to reject following Christ for awhile He loves us so much that He constantly woo's us back,calls us back,searches us out and welcomes us back w/such great joy! It's all about His divine love & a Father-son/daughter relationship.
The warning is that we never know when we are going to depart this earth so we should not take advantage of that amazing grace & assume we can come back whenever we feel like it.
(And who really knows what is happening in the spiritual realm. Is it not possible that something that should have killed someone did not-only to give them some more time to repent & be saved? We have no guarentees of this type of protection from our own stupidity but it would not suprise me to find out one day it had actually occured.)
*There is also the widow w/the lost coin story.
You can also be lost (in the world) & found by coming to Christ for the 1st time as well but I don't think that is the message these stories are trying to get across. Although some peole do. Usually the eternal security types.**It would have to be understood that way or E.S. would not hold up.
The other way of loosing salvation is by becoming "Apostate". Rejecting the Holy Spirit completely after you knew the truth (saved) & w/that Christ. This is the one you are forever cut off (from the vine). Is this possibly an example of Judas?
I don't know enough about what becoming "Apostate" entails so I would have to look that up. But from what I understand there is a definite difference.
For example. The JW's (which I was for a short time) stress this "Apostate" teaching to no end. It's what they use to scare their followers into never leaving.
(And it worked on me for quite awhile)
In the JW circle if you live in sin-(sex outside marriage/abusive/drinking-drug problem/ect..) you can be disfellowshiped. So everyone shuns you. Your family, the congregation, etc..as punishment. But-if you stop that behavior-you are able to be reinstated. (come back) This would be their "falling away."
But- if you decide to leave the JW's and ever say anything negative about their faith-you are classified an "Apostate." Especially if you embrace a normal Christian religion. In their minds you have rejected the Holy Spirit (truth-as they are the only one's w/it)you are never welcome back. Forever blacklisted. Doomed to soul sleep. (That's me! Hallelujah!) A JW can't even ever speak to someone that is an Apostate. (Heaven forbid. They might actually convince them that the real Christ-is not Michael the Archangel!)
So maybe some research on what being an "Apostate" is would clear up the difference.
I don't know if others are getting aggravated but I just wanted to say that I am really enjoying this dialogue.
I think this is an important topic, worthy of debate & talking it through.
I don't have much to add, I struggle with this one immensely & have been thinking about it a lot lately.
(Poor, long-suffering, Mac. You have no idea what that man has to endure, from me, on this topic. But, I'm most thankful that he is such a patient man!)
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 10:27-29
16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:16-17
Scripture doesn't contradict itself. If you find a verse or verses that seem to contradict others, then that means the verse doesn't mean what you think it does.
Hi Dave,
I love those verses. When I read them this is what stands out:
Romans 8:1 ..."those who are in Christ Jesus," (the key-"in Christ-you cannot loose it.) but (out of Christ-yes you can loose it.) Remember being attached to the vine which is Christ.
Romans 8:38 ..."will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Again-when we are "in Christ" attached to the vine-there is absolutely nothing that can separate us.
Our eternal security is "in Christ Jesus our Lord."
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5
The reason why there are so many warnings about departing from the faith, loosing your 1st love, false teachers & prophets, endurance, perseverance, overcoming, is that it is possible to no longer remain "in Christ."
It is not because He is unfaithful. It is because we can be- due to our inherited sin nature & the fact God has given us free will. There can not be true love without free will.
1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Tim 2:13 Our faith may fail, his never wanes- That's who he is, he cannot change! (ISV)
Was not Satan created perfect yet he fell & took 1/3 with him?
We already know into the future @ the end of the Millenial reign of Christ that even more will fall. Looks like God will never revoke our free will to love Him or do our own thing.
He does know what we need and so encourages us to pray without ceasing, meditate upon His word,talk about His ways to our children day & night, encourage one another, spend time w/fellow believers, keep going-keep going-keep going-never stop pushing ahead. (Do you think He knows us all too well? We get lazy & distracted-the vine witheres up & then we are no longer have a healthy flow of Holy Spirit & dry up spiritually like an old prune.)
**Boy-the image brought to mind by that last statement sure doesn't look good (:
John 10
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
I just don't see the words "EXCEPT ME" in those verses when it says "no one will snatch them." If I've truly believed in Jesus as my Savior, I cannot be taken out of His hand by anyone. If I have to do something extra to earn the right to keep my salvation....that diminishes God's gift in the first place.
Jesus paid the full price for my sin.....except if you're naughty after you believe. I just don't see it.
I now declare my expert status on this subject, so this is the final word on the matter.
hehehehehehe
Anne,
You're absolutely right!
"Scripture doesn't contradict itself. If you find a verse or verses that seem to contradict others, then that means the verse doesn't mean what you think it does."
Every verse you just quoted applies to those who remain attached to the vine-"in Christ."
You are looking at all the scripture which apply to those standing upon the Rock-which is Christ Jesus. There is nothing in heaven or on earth which can seperate us as long as that is where we are standing.
Now just for a personal exercise go back to the Bible and quote all the verses you can find which warn about falling away.
Dave, I don't think anyone is arguing this point.
"If I've truly believed in Jesus as my Savior, I cannot be taken out of His hand by anyone."
But look up what believing means in Hebrew. It is an act of faith of following.
You can believe something in our English language yet not act in faith & in obedience.
Remember Lord,Lord.... There will be many people who give lip service but who don't do this:
Luke 10:27 He answered, "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind. And you must love your neighbor as yourself."
Do you consider loving God to keep your salvation works based? Yet if you love Him good works & fruit will follow naturally.
If you believe Him, follow Him, are obedient to Him, then you love Him.
Remember when Jesus kept asking Peter if he loved Him? He used three words for love if you look it up. I forgot what they were in the origional language but this is what the three meant: Do you love me w/a friendship type of love? Do you love me with brotherly type of love? Now do you love me with the highest of all-divine type of love?
(I think that one's called "Agape")
All we see when we read it in our language is:do you love me? do you love? me do you really love me?
Blah,Blah, and more Blah. It really means so much more-just like the word believe does.
I guess that's the point I'm trying to make. You can stop believing or stop loving/following Christ but that ball is in your court.
Do I ever plan on doing that? Of course not but I do take God's commandments/encouragements in His word to heart. When He says we should do this or that I try to follow through on it. I keep all of the warnings on the fore front of my mind-just in case I'm tempted to do something dumb again.
So what you are saying is that you understand that a Christian cannot leave God once they belong to Him even if they wanted to?
The free will we have been created with is then revoked once we are born again?
So all the warnings are only for the unbelievers & fake Christians?
Persevere, endure, overcome, press on,false Christs,prophets,teachers,
etc...
(I'm not trying to be a stinker. Just throwing out some questions to consider.)
Lisa, I think you meant Angie, not Anne (about "Scripture doesn't contradict itself.")
Joel has a new post.
Marge,
I was reading Hebrews 6 "Warning Against Falling Away" and I got a kick out of reviewing this:
"We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!..."
Could you imagine having been there and hearing this about yourself?
(Then I think the rest of Hebrews 6describes what happens to one who would be considered an Apostate.)
Well, I'm taking a break now. Mom's flying in from SC tonight for 3 weeks. The kids are excited about grandma coming.
Oh, sorry about that Anne!
Dave and Angie,
Good to hear from you both!
And Dave, you are now our resident expert on the subject :)
Lisa,
I totally agree. One has to become Apostate for the Hebrews 6 Scripture to become accurate.
There is an old saying, something to the effect of,
If God isn't near you, who moved?
God is faithful. But if someone, that has known the truth, willingly walks away, and wants nothing more to do with God? God has always allowed "free will."
Alesia,
I agree. A good discussion.
Anyone else?
Lisa,
I'm not sure what verses about "falling away" you're referring to. We can make ourselves useless to God, for sure, and that's why Jesus said we need to abide in Him.
Interesting question about losing our free will when we become saved. Quite frankly, I don't have enough faith to believe that we can lose our salvation or reject it. God has never gone back on His promises, no matter how faithless His children are, and I'm relying on Him to not allow anything to snatch me from his hand.
Angie
PS I was the deletion. I mangled what I wanted to say and decided to start from scratch.
I don't think I have ever come across a born again believer who did not believe in eternal security till now, but obviously there are some.
Some of these things we probably won't convince others of.
I don't think one needs to believe in eternal security to get to heaven, as Michael Youseffs article stated.
But it does seem that those who do not know they are going to heaven are missing out on a lot.
I KNOW I will be there....no matter what I DO.
I am going there because of what He has already done for us.
If anyone falls away, they were never there to begin with.
Grany, thank you for your beautiful testimony.
I will have to go back and read the other posts.
<><
Donna,
Christians who don't believe in should I say "unconditional" eternal security generally have no doubts as to whether they are going to heaven or not.
I'm eternally secure because I have an ongoing relationship with Christ. I guess the difference is that if I decide to become a JW again or leave my husband & run off to go live with some guy I would certainly doubt my relationship with God & my
eternal security.
I guess you would feel secure no matter what you did. Is that so?
Anyway, we are in the book of James now on Sundays. (Just started it.) James is the 1/2 brother of Jesus.
I was reading it tonight and ran across another scripture regarding wandering from the faith.
James 5:19,20
“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins,” (James 5:19-20)
He is addressing "Brethren" which are fellow believers and says if anyone from their group wanders from the truth ("I am the way,the truth & the life") turns the "sinner" (this person is now labled a sinner which is an unsaved person no longer covered by the blood of Christ) from the error of his way (the sinner repents)will save that person from death (spiritual) & cover a multitude of sins. (cover all of the sins he committed while lost because he will be back in fellowship with Christ & forgiven-covered under the blood of Jesus again & saved.)
Here is an article Responding to the wanderer I found. It gave me a couple extra things to ponder as what could possibly cause one to wander in the 1st place.
I've resisted getting into this OSAS conversation one more time but I feel led to add my testimony; not because I think I could persuade any of you who are of a different opinion. But for those who might be reading this blog spot and have not as yet rejected the theology of eternal security.
I wish that I could write as elegantly as Nate and the others, but with God's help, I will testify.
I received the gift of everlasting life as a 7 yr old child. Jesus said that we must come to him as a child with child like faith. I did, and I have never once doubted my eternal standing with Him. I truly believe what the Bible says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."
My eternal salvation was given because I received His grace by Faith (which He gave to me; I had none of my own).
When Abraham received the everlasting covenant with God, he was the recipient of God's grace. When the sacrifices were readied, God put Abraham into a deep sleep and God alone walked the path through the sacrifices taking upon Himself the obligation to fulfill that covenant with Abraham. Abraham's only participation was his faith. So, it is the same with us, we used the faith that the LORD provided us to obtain everlasting life. The LORD is the giver of it all, our eternal salvation. He has promised that Jesus will not lose ONE and He does not lie.
Several of you have quoted many verses that you think makes eternal salvation your responsibility, which negates many verses that Jesus Himself gave us.
If your works can't save you, neither can they keep you saved. I'm sure you all know what God thinks of our "works." Isaiah 64 tells us that "our righteousness" is like filthy rags to the LORD. If we weren't covered by Jesus' righteousness we couldn't even enter the throne room.
Our abiding in Christ is the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
I pray that you will meditate on the following verses.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]:)
1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Phl 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
I weep a lot over the people who are believing that they are responsible for keeping their salvation. I've seen people tormented by this belief, some of my own cousins were raised in a Free Will Baptist Church where they were fed this false teaching, and had given up on trying to abide in Christ. It took a lot of praying and counseling for them to see the truth. I am happy to report that they are in right relationship with Christ today and are faithfully serving Him.
To God be the Glory. There will be none in Heaven that will be able to boast that they kept their salvation by their own endeavors. He has said that He will not share His Glory with anyone.
I believe Him.
Your Sister in Christ for eternity,
A Child of the King
Jim G, I sent Kristen an invitation but she says her plate is filled to overflowing...I'm thrilled to see the discussion is with such a gracious tone!
We flew home today. (Did San Diego hit 93 like it did in LA today Lisa?!) For the 2 1/2 hour flight I spent most of it reading my Bible. I started with James...1:18 says - "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth..." This fits with all the verses that tell us we are chosen. Then 1 Peter 1:7 caught my eye..."that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable..." Child of the King, I too believe our faith originates and is a gift from God and here Peter says our faith is more precious than gold which is perishable...in other words, genuine, God-given faith is imperishable, not like gold which is perishable. God given faith continues because of the source! Move on to verse 23 in that same chapter..."for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and abiding word of God." Our abiding, like Child says, is the work of God. This makes our salvation - from start to finish, His work so He gets the glory.
Love to you all,
Kathy
Jam 5:19-20 is food for thought, Lisa. I think there are some difficult verses that have to be addressed by those who subscribe to OSAS and, as an ex New Ager and RC, this is still an area that I need to do much study on. I'm accumulating articles for my own personal study. One thing I am convinced of is that it is very dangerous to assume that we are safe and home and become complacent. We do have a responsibility to "be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing..."
6. Common Objections to Eternal Security
I haven't read all of the article above.
The Assurance of Victory; Christian Certainties--Part 1 by John MacArthur
PS praying for you, Jim C.
No way! :-0
Bloggers Uncover Possible CNN Video Fraud
Donna,
You wrote:
I don't think I have ever come across a born again believer who did not believe in eternal security till now, but obviously there are some.
I had a similar experience many years ago except I was on the other side of the doctrinal fence so to speak;-) (I'll share that story in a seperate comment).
First though, I thought I'd share this.
The info below is from:
Comparing Christian Denominations - Beliefs (Part 2)
By Mary Fairchild, About.com
Obviously, it is only a partial list of Christian denominations. The original article listed them alphabetically. For the purposes of our discussion, I regrouped according to how each denomination answers the question:
Can Salvation Be Lost?
NO
Anglican/Episcopalian - "Holy Baptism is full initiation by water and the Holy Spirit into Christ's Body the Church. The bond which God establishes in Baptism is indissoluble." Book of Common Prayers (BCP) 1979, p. 298.
Southern Baptist – Southern Baptists do not believe salvation can be lost. "All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end." SBC.net
Presbyterian - With reformed theology at the core of Presbyterian beliefs, the church teaches that a person who truly has been regenerated by God, will remain in God's stead. PCUSA.org, Reformed.org
YES
Assembly of God - Assembly of God Christians believe salvation can be lost. "The General Council of the Assemblies of God disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost." AG.org
Lutheran - Lutherans believe salvation can be lost when a believer does not persist in the faith. "... it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us ... A person may be restored to faith in the same way he or she came to faith ... by repenting of his or her sin and unbelief and trusting completely in the life, death and resurrection of Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation." LCMS.org
Methodist - Methodists do believe salvation can be lost. "God accepts my choice ... and continues to reach out to me with the grace of repentance to bring me back to the way of salvation and sanctification." UMC.org
Roman Catholic - Catholics do believe salvation can be lost. "The first effect of mortal sin in man is to avert him from his true last end, and deprive his soul of sanctifying grace." CE Final perseverance is a gift from God, but man must cooperate with the gift. CE (newadvent.org)
OK, here's my little story of how I discovered that there are Christians who actually believe a person can't lose their salvation.
I was in High School. I had a job as a busboy at Colonel Lee's Mongolian Bar-B-Que. (Mmmm. Good food!) A friend from school, Mark, worked there with me as a dishwasher.
A number of Christians at our school, including Mark and I, used to hang out together for fellowship and Bible study. We didn't all attend the same church but we enjoyed the fellowship and weren't ashamed to be Christians.
At work, Mark and I would talk about the Lord and theology from time to time. One time I asked him about his older brother who my older brother used to play baseball with. I asked him something like is he a Christian or is he saved? Mark said that his brother had made a commitment to the Lord when he was young but had drifted away. Mark insisted he had to still be saved though despite not serving the Lord now.
We both argued about this question. I had no idea (and he had no idea) that Christians even disagree about this question.
Sadly, Mark himself drifted from the Lord a few years later. He suffered a terrible heartbrake when his long time high school sweetheart broke things off. He couldn't let her go. Even after she married. He stalked her for some time and eventually murdered her in broad daylight as she left work one day. That was back around 1983 or so.
He was caught and has been in prison ever sense. My heart is broken for Mark. The last I heard (I actually had contact with his sister in the last year or so), he is bitter and distant from God.
Some would say Mark was never saved. I don't know. Others would say if he was saved, he still is. I don't know.
I just find it ironic that this happened to my friend who believed so adamantly in "eternal security."
Obviously, it could happen to a person no matter what their doctrinal position is. I'm afraid that Mark is not in Christ right now. Whether he ever was or not is not important at this point.
Jim G
I have to nitpick this sorry. it is not our lack of faith which separates us from God nor was it lack of faith that separated the OT saints from God either-it is and always has been sin which separates us from God. there now I feel better.
Regarding the Prodigal Son- my take is that the key point is that even though the father thought the son might be dead at no time did the son ever cease to be the son of his father. when my brother died he did not cease to be my parent's son and my brother just because he had died, he is still my brother and the son of my parents. the prodigal's father obviously would have been shamed and greatly distressed over his sons actions but he didn't stop hoping that his son was alive and would come back. the father sees his son from a far off-I get the impression that the father went out daily to look and see if this was the day his son would return. I remember the testimony of one who used to post regularly at Joel's. She was willfully sinning although sitting in church one day and a message from God came to her that if she didn't straighten out her life and walk rightly He would bring her home early because she was bring reproach to His name.
Grany and Child of the King
such wise women. While I didn't leave my faith I did rebel for a time against right living and abiding. had I died at that moment I've no doubt I would have gone to heaven although my life's works would not have amounted to much after being tested by fire. I had recently been challenged by our sunday school teacher that the verses in Corinthians about our works being gold, silver or wood and hay being tested didn't mean what I thought it meant so I looked up all the strong's words and considered all the meanings of the words, not just the ones I thought might prove my point, and came away with the conclusion that our deeds both good and bad, that which is hidden, will be brought to light and they will be tested by an all consuming fire and we will be paid wages based on that. for those who's deeds are all utterly consumed-they are still saved but barely.
One of the things that really rankles me is the constant erroneous assumption by some of those who hold to a view other than that of eternal security is that those of us who do hold that view think everyone has some sort of free pass. it seems to be part of every critique in some fashion that I have ever read or studied. We don't think anyone has a get of of jail card-we do realize that since we are still in this mortal body however we will still sin. Even Paul had that problem yet no where do I ever get the sense in any of his writings that he thought if he died in sin he was damned to hell. I think Paul said it best-yes we are saved and secure but that does not give us a license to do with our lives, our wills and our bodies what we want to do so that grace may abound because we are bought with a price.
I think part of the problem with people turning their backs however was rather succinctly put by Kirk Cameron at the way of the Master site on witnessing. If you were on a plane and told to put on a heavy ugly parachute because it would make your life easier, happier, richer and overall better-when people started laughing at you and mocking you for wearing the heavy ugly thing because you obviously were uncomfortable, couldn't sit properly in your seat etc. and your life was not as promised the parachute comes off and you are angry at getting sucked in by worthless promises. however if you are given and take the heavy ugly parachute because you are told that you were it it will save your life, that you will die without it if something happens, you probably wouldn't care how uncomfortable you got and you probably aren't going to take the parachute off when people start laughing and making fun because you know you need it. The single reason that the Great Awakening that happened both in this country and abroad is that people were made to see their need of God, that they were damned to hell if they rejected God. Find and read John Edwards sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. It is the quintessential sermon from that time period. We have no hellfire preaching anymore because it is too quaint, to old fashioned and offends peoples sensibilities because no one wants to think they are sinners in need of a Saviour. Also a great many of our preachers in this day in age just don't seem to think hell is a real place. We need another John Edwards and what we got was Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen to name a couple. We need to be making people aware that they need the ugly uncomfortable parachute to save their lives not because it will make their life easier.
Angie
thank you for saying that. and btw-I get all the comments in my email so I saw your original answer and it was just fine.
Kathy and I discussed this whole issue quite a bit a while back.
She's firmly on the eternal security side and well, you all know where I stand on the issue.
Anyway, I think we made progress in that we both agreed that it all comes down to faith in Christ.
Kathy believes that faith is a gift from God that is divinely infused into the believer without his or her consent.
I believe that faith is something that God asks of us but it is subject to our free will.
In both the OT and the NT, faith is the key.
I feel so often misunderstood or mischaracterized when folks say that rejection of eternal security is equivalent to works based salvation. If that is what they think, then they have not understood my doctrinal position. We remain in him by faith. Works (or good fruit) are evidence of faith, not the cause.
Jim G
how does committing murder negate his salvation? I'm not trying to trivialize what he has done. yes it is a grave sin but if you have ever hated someone in your heart Christ states that your act of hatred is the same as killing someone physically, no different. Christ's problem with the Pharisees was that they looked on the law as an outward expression never the heart expression that it was meant to be. This is why Paul calls the Jews uncircumcised in the heart and Christians circumcised in the heart in Romans. Unlike you I don't think his committing murder is necessarily indicative of him never being saved or damned to hell for eternity now either. I do think he needs to repent of his actions and seek even while in prison to abide in Christ. have you had any contact with him since his incarceration? have you talked with him to find out what is going on in his life right now? how do you have any idea what the state of his soul was then or is right now?
we are all one action away from being in found sin. been there done that. found out that I can not keep from sinning in my own strength but must be watchful and rely on God to keep me from doing so.
while faith may be key to salvation it is not what keeps us eternally separated from God. Sin is what keeps us separated from God.
We are somewhat talking at cross purposes here and I see the questions as these
1- can we by sin lose our salvation
many verses stating that we can lose our salvation by committing apostasy have been given but I haven't seen any verses given that we can lose our salvation by sinning.
which leads to the second question
2-is just sinning an act of apostasy or is apostasy something more than mere sin or living sinfully? I don't think they are they same at all and I think apostasy is something completely different than sin. It obviously involves sin but I don't believe that it is solely sin.
Jib,
I appreciate the nitpicking. You are absolutely right that sin separates us from God.
But, sin is a sign (or result of) of lack of faith.
Romans 14:23
"...whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Sin separates us from God.
Faith in Him is the catalyst or conduit by which we are reconciled to Him by His grace.
It is an active, ongoing faith though, not a one time event. The Greek verb tenses make this clear. Unfortunately, English is not as precise as NT Greek.
In Christ, we have both the payment for our sins and the power of the resurrection which is everlasting life. Outside of Christ we are lost.
I think we all are actually much closer to one another in our understanding of this mystery than we first thought.
I leave you all with this for your consideration tonight (It's getting too late)
Heb 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
the word uttermost here is used only one other time and that is regarding the woman in Luke 13:11 where it states she could in no wise lift herself up.
the word pantelēs means
1) all complete, perfect
2) completely, perfectly, utterly
the word comes from two root words
the first root word pas means
1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types
the second root word is telos which means
1) end
a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal
c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
so essentially Christ saves all with finality, and eternality
Jim G.,
You said,
"I feel so often misunderstood or mischaracterized when folks say that rejection of eternal security is equivalent to works based salvation. If that is what they think, then they have not understood my doctrinal position. We remain in him by faith. Works (or good fruit) are evidence of faith, not the cause."
Jesus said that he would lose no one. You say he will.
If you could possibly be right, just what causes the person to lose their eternal salvation if not works?
No one but God and your friend know if he was indeed born again. But the penalty of that sin of murder was paid in full by Jesus just as yours and mine were. I pray that he is indeed a born-again believer and I will be praying that he gets his relationship with Jesus fixed or he finds salvation if he hasn't already.
Your Sister in Christ,
A Child of the King
Nate,
I disagree. That site doesn't nicely explain all viewpoints. It only explains the different views from a calvinistic viewpoint/mindset.
It is a good site because it lists many verses pertaining to topic
(as long as you don't read the commentary - if you're not a calvin-nite, ism, ist or whatever the right term is :-))
So many of you have made so many good points. Child of the King...amen!
Jim G thank you for that list of church positions...very interesting.
Yes, I know that regardless of what I do, I will be going to heaven and personally I can't wait!
It is not based on what I do, but based on what He has done.
All I and we have to do is accept this and have a saving faith in Him.
Very little of any of this has to do with us.
The New Testament letters all explain this.
As I've mentioned before, I believe the Bible teaches that we should take this all even a step further and WALK by FAITH and not by sight.
I'm sorry about your friend, Jim. However I do believe that the BIble teaches that if he has faith as small as a mustard seed, he is saved.
Nate, excellent point about us not knowing other people's hearts. That's why we have to be careful about judging other people. Not only do we not know the heart of another person, but we don't know the end from the beginning. We don't know where people have come from, and we don't know where they're going to end up at the end of this life.
Child...AMEN AMEN!!!! We are NOT responsible for our salvation. That's the point I was getting at in what I said about not having enough faith to believe we can lose our salvation. To believe that would be to disbelieve the Bible. The Bible reveals God's plan for our salvation from beginning to end and reveals that He keeps His promises. I don't have enough faith to believe God's Word is untrue and that we have to strive (or be responsible) for receiving and maintaining our salvation. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that faith is all He requires of us, and He does all the hard (hard in human terms) stuff. We just have to step into His plan for our lives...have faith and let Him do the rest.
JIB, you are quite correct that sin doesn't negate our salvation. If it did, we'd all be doomed. I think people like to look at sin and rank it and (apparently) think that the "little" ones are okay, but the "big" ones will cause us to lose our salvation. The thing is, we like to look at other people's lives with a microcscope, but look at our own lives with a telescope. We like to think of ourselves as "good" people and can't see that our own righteousness is like filthy rags. We can get into heaven only under Jesus' name (that's a lyric from "Sneakin' into Heaven" sung by Chris Rice). Putting aside the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit--and I have no idea what that means--there is no unforgivable sin. Otherwise King David wouldn't have been forgiven for adultry and murder and wouldn't have been considered a man after God's own heart.
Angie
Angie
no Jim G
sin is not a result of lack of faith although as an exception to the rule it could be. sin is our missing the mark with respect to God's law. it is our own actions that separate us from God and has little to do with faith unless one somehow thinks that the sins we commit after we come to Christ are somehow all related to lack of faith.
if the only sin that I ever committed was to desire a penny that someone else had I would be forever lost and damned to hell. if after I receive Christ I covet the penny how is that lack of faith? it could be lack of faith if I doubt that God will provide but more often than not it's just because I want the penny-it is shinier and newer than my penny.
Christ didn't just sweat the big stuff he sweated what we would consider the small stuff. I think we fail to realize the enormity of what it means when the scripture says-He was perfect in all His ways, in Him was no sin found and that he completely fulfilled the law. wow. I was meditating on that last night. it means not only did he not murder or commit adultery he didn't commit any such thing in his heart either. He fulfilled the law both outwardly and inwardly. he fulfilled the law in ways I'll bet we can't imagine.
if none of you read the Piper article that Mac posted it is quite good and does address the willful sinning and no just sinning isn't apostasy per his definition and he his explanation backs up my point about no verses being given which point to sinning for loss of salvation although one wouldn't think so if you only read the first part of the message. he also makes note of the fact that the sanctification discussed is not sanctification for salvation either.
Angie
actually Frucht makes the point that the unpardonable sin was only concerning the first century Jews who ascribed Christ's miracles as acts of Satan and therefore cannot be committed by folks today.
Child of the King,
You said:
Jesus said that he would lose no one. You say he will.
That's what I mean about feeling like I have been misunderstood or my position mischaracterized (I still love and appreciate you sister and don't take any misunderstanding personally). I did not say that Jesus would lose us. He is always faithful. We are not always faithful. He warns us to remain faithful to the end. This position is not an indictment on God by any means. If he could not lose anyone, then all people would be saved.
He is Creator and not all who he created will be saved. It is not because He fails us. It is because some people reject Him and his offer of salvation.
You also wrote:
If you could possibly be right, just what causes the person to lose their eternal salvation if not works?
Ceasing to abide in Christ by faith. I don't know where that point is. Only God does. But, I think we can have a sense of who our brothers and sisters in Christ are. Why is it we here at the cave all sense that we have the Holy Spirit in us? Why is it that you can meet someone on the street and sense that they are far from God? No, we don't know anyone's heart but we can know a tree by its fruit according to Jesus.
As for my friend, I don't know if he was ever REALLY saved. I'm not sure where he is at now. But from what his sister communicated to me, it sounds like he is outside the fold, not abiding in Christ. I absolutely do believe that Christ is willing and more than able to forgive even murder. We are forgiven in Him and we abide in Him by faith.
Again, this whole issue seems to me to come down to the nature of faith. Thanks for everyone's thoughtful comments. I think we all want our doctrine to be in alignment with God's truths. If I'm wrong on this (or any other doctrine), I sincerely do want the Holy Spirit to reveal it to me.
Sorry for the length
In trying to wrap my brain around this OSAS issue, I’ve had to go through different steps/thought processes:
* Why was the bible written? For what purpose & for whom?
* What does it mean to be “truly” born again & a “saved” Christian?
My take:
To believe & accept that Jesus Christ is my LORD & Saviour, to confess & repent of my sins.
Let’s break that down:
1) believe & accept I have free will & therefore I must make the choice to open the door Christ is knocking on. Yes, He is doing the knocking, but I must answer.
(This was a big one for me)
2) LORD - what does that mean? A lord (amongst other things) is one who sets the rules & we must obey them.
So, I must be obedient to Christ’s rules & His instruction for me, in order to accept Him as my Lord.
---in order to be saved, do I agree to make a commitment to do so – or actually work towards & try to obey Him - forevermore?
3) Saviour IMO – this is the easiest one to understand. I must believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. (Not, to in any way, belittle this it’s a HUGE one but it’s the easiest one for me to wrap my brain around.)
4) Confess & Repent Does this mean I do this once & all is good? I don’t think so, it is an ongoing process – seeing as we all continue to sin.
Let me state LOUD & CLEAR – I, in no way, think this is “Works” based – we are saved through grace & God’s mercy alone.
Nothing we do alone will earn our salvation.
We are nudged, woo’d, sometimes pushed & helped but ultimately it is our choice to take the Lord’s hand.
There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation but that does not mean that we do not have immense responsibilities as part of the body of Christ.
So, for me, after much contemplation, the two biggest questions I have are:
1) How do we know when & if we ARE saved? If you read Nate’s link they talk a lot about “nominal” Christians – those who think they are saved but are not really.
I don’t know what I think about that, honestly.
I completely agree that there are many people out there that think they are saved & are not. Because they’ve bought into the lie that all that they have to do is say a prayer, believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross & viola they are saved. I think we can all agree, that there is MUCH more to it than that. But, if this “nominal” Christian is true – at what point do we move from nominal to saved?
2) If these are my thoughts on what it means to be a saved, part of the body of Christ, born-again Christian (and thus far it is) Then does that mean if a person turns their back on God, stops believing, obeying, confessing & repenting can they lose their salvation?
I don’t know the answer to that. I honestly don’t think anyone this side of heaven can answer that question with 100% certainty. I tend to think, yes, it is possible.
The kicker for me is – if it’s that easy, if nothing is required of you, if like Donna says: “Yes, I know that regardless of what I do, I will be going to heaven” Why aren’t more people saved? Why is there mention of the 7 churches in Revelation? Why is there a term “nominal” Christians? Why are we warned over & over in the bible if it were that simple? I could go on & on but you get the gist.
Like I told Mac – even if I was presented with overwhelming evidence of OSAS, I would not want to live my life with that mentality. I take the “work out your salvation with fear & trembling” very seriously. There is a heavy burden & much responsibility on my part with my relationship with God – it’s not a one-sided relationship & it sure ain’t easy to do all that I’ve outlined. I never want to grow complacent, kick back my heals & think I’m on easy street.
It’s not my intent to criticize anyone’s views, like I said, I don’t know where I stand on this issue & am trying to work through it.
If anything, I started off thinking about OSAS & ended up deeply pondering salvation.
Jim G.
I am sorry that I didn't make myself perfectly clear by what I meant by "Jesus said He would lose no one." This has been discussed so much on this blog, that I assumed you and anyone else reading would know which scripture verses I was referring to. Of course I was not referring to anyone who had not been born-again.
This whole topic is about born-again people losing or not losing their salvation.
They are John 6:38-40 and for good measure look at John 10:28-30.
“For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:38-40)
Jesus made it just as clearly in John 10:28-30. “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
The Father and the Son have both accepted responsibility for our security. Once we’re in Their hands, no one (and that includes ourselves) can get us away.
Your answer to my question,
If you could possibly be right, just what causes the person to lose their eternal salvation if not works?
was Ceasing to abide in Christ by faith.
You admit that you do not know where this happens and state that only God knows. But Jim, my question was HOW not WHEN. So now I ask you how does one cease to abide in Christ by faith? Something has to happen to cause this ceasing to abide in Christ to occur, right?
But no matter what your answer is, my response will be that both God and Jesus have taken the responsibility for our security. And all of us who have obtained salvation will arrive home safe in the arms of our Redeemer just as He promised.
I pray that each and everyone of you here commenting or just reading have or soon will have that "Blessed Assurance."
Your friend in Christ,
A Child of the King
Remember Romans 3:10-12?
"There is none who understands...there is none who seek after God."
If this verse is true (and it is of course) then how does a person come to seek after Christ? (Seek and ye shall find...) The drawing of the Father. (John 6:44) So, I believe that His gift of faith is given to a person who is not seeking, but upon receipt of the gift the seeking begins. Remember Paul on the road to Damascus? He did not give God His consent...He was not even seeking but God laid hold of Him. Just like life is given to a dead person, the ability to seek is given by God. Salvation is not from the will of the flesh or the will of man BUT OF GOD – John 1:12,13 – Ryrie says of that verse “the new birth is supernatural and therefore completely distinct from natural birth...contains no human element...nor does it lie within the scope of human achievement...”
And then I believe once He lays hold of us our wills play into how obedient we are going to be...and if we pull a Jonah, He'll take care of it, as our loving Heavenly Father who disciplines those He loves...
Hebrews 12:2 tells us that Jesus is the author and perfecter of faith...Ph. 1:6 says He who began a good work in us will perfect it until the day of Christ. Like Donna says, it truly is all about Him!
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Your Sister in Christ,
A Child of the King
Child,
If it were that simple wouldn't:
- that be the only paragraph needed for the entire bible?
- everyone who believes Jesus is the Son of God goes to heaven - including satan & his demons?
Alesia,
Child and I are on the "same page" as far as obtaining and maintaining salvation not being our responsibility. The Bible reveals God's plan for our salvation from beginning to end and reveals His character. If only a single verse made up the Bible, we would have a meaningless Bible. We wouldn't know who God was. There would be no revelation of Him whatsoever. And that would render scripture not just meaningless, but useless.
As far as satan and the demons, they made their choice. They rebelled against God and sealed their fate to burn in the lake of fire for eternity. Jesus didn't die for the angels who dwell in the present heaven(satan and those who fell with him were angels), but He died for us who do not.
We're given the Holy Spirit as a seal of our inheritence (Eph 1:13-15) and we have God living in us. I believe that the idea that we can lose or reject our salvation once we have salvation is a lie from the enemy.
Angie
Angie
Alesia,
Hey, I'm with you. This is a good discussion.
I totally agree with all your comments on your 10:25 entry. And I also had the same question yesterday, but I didn't want to be agrumentative, and noone had brought up the subject yet...of the 7 Churches in Rev. Good question. What about the last Church mentioned there? The Laodiceans? In Rev. 3: 16, Jesus says He's pretty disgusted with them. Enough so, that in verse 16b, the Bible says..."I will spue thee out of my mouth." Not a pretty sight, in any stretch of the imagination.
IS everything in God's hands? I tend to believe there is always a God side, and a human side. It all comes down to the human free will. Even when it came to Jesus healing people, He would often ask, "would you be made whole?" God isn't going to violate anyone's free will.
Also, what about that Christian, that is leaving everything up to God? Say, for instance, the rapture happened, and this person was in bed with someone, and that someone wasn't their spouse? (or whatever) Would THAT believer go in the rapture? I wonder. I really and truly do. But, (from what I've heard from the OSAS) yes, they were saved, therefore they'd go in the rapture.
Anyway, to quote Lisa, (a great comment, BTW, Lisa :) "I'm not trying to be a stinker here." Along with Alesia, I'm trying to wrap my mind around some of these verses/concepts, is all.
Another question, before I go run errands, go to Curves, and basically escape, (LOL!) is, what about the verse in Matt. 7:23b? "I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Okay, so we could go back to that person that is sinning, at the time of the rapture. Did that person, say a sinners prayer, and never really repent? ("never knew you.") OR, was that a person that thought they were saved, then decide to go back into the world? Which the Bible also mentions. Going to 2 Peter 21 and 22. "For it would have been better for them to have not known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
Anyway, just a few questions, from an honest seeker. Be kind.
a Child of the King,
Hello! I'm so happy you are back ministering to us! It's always a pleasure to see you posting.
Alesia,
It is that simple. And the reason for the rest of the Bible is:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Jesus did not die to pay the penalty for the sins of Angels but for mankind.
And the only sin that will send man to hell is the rejection of the finished work of Christ that he accomplished so that all might obtain eternal salvation.
Every sin that we have ever committed, are currently committing, and will in the future commit was nailed to the cross and has been paid in full. The only thing mankind has to do is respond to the Holy Spirit and take that Grace by faith.
Keep seeking Alesia and trust that the God who saved you will also keep you; He is the author and finisher of our Eternal Salvation.
Your Sister in Christ,
A Child of the King
Child of a King,
"If you could possibly be right, just what causes the person to lose their eternal salvation if not works?"
I've asked this question before.
Is loving God w/all your heart,soul,mind,strength,ect.. Considered a work?
Is love work? Can someone answer that question?
Let's see what Jesus says in Rev 2:18 .....These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, His feet like fine brass: "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first.
Does it seem to you like He is categorizing love the same as works?
What does Jesus also say? If you love me you will obey my commandments. If you love anything/anybody more than God you are not worthy of Him. In Rev 2-the angel of the church of Ephesus states that they have "left their first love." Then read the rest. If they repent & overcome then they will "eat from the tree of life,..." (Be saved.) Which means if they do not repent and turn from their lack of love for Christ they will be damned in hell. (You'll have to excuse me-my blood is all reved up-and I could preach a hell fire sermon at the moment.)
You cannot love Christ & obey the greatest commandment of all-the 1st one- and stand to live a sinful lifestyle. It is not humanly possible.
Yes we all sin & fall short but we can rest assured through God's grace & mercy in the person of Christ Jesus. If we love Him & keep the greatest of all His commandments we are eternally secure.
Is anyone saying that we have to do any type of particular work to be saved? We cannot earn our own salvation.
I guess many of you think it's too much to obey the voice of the Lord & be expected to keep His 1st commandment and just love Him with all of our being. All the rest of the commandments hang upon the 1st one because if we do that all the rest will follow suit.
The two way relationship will be open & the Holy Spirit will be able to do the work in us that God so desires. We will have the faith, the strength, the comfort, the perseverance, and every other good thing which comes from above.
If you break the 1st commandment and become distracted by the cares of the world then spiritual sickness sets in- which over time will eventually cause spiritual deadness & death.
Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are those that do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates of the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."
I really fear for those who believe you can treat God like trash & think He's ok with it.
My perception of who He is- is apparently quite different than others.
And no it's not works based. Its love based.
Please forgive me if I've said anything offensive- today is just one of those days I'm on fire & my regular mellowness has waned.
I'll give it a rest-whew.
Endtime Shoe: Fitting The World For Ten Toes – Part I
A Movie And Television Special Presents An Islamic Jesus To The Moslem World
'Hamas agrees to Turkish force in Rafah'
Turkish convoy headed to Syria to protest Gaza attacks
Israeli leader warns Hamas of 'iron fist'
Bush: Hamas must stop rocket fire if it wants Gaza truce
'Navy halts Gaza-bound Iranian boat'
U.S. arms shipment to Israel canceled due to Gaza conflict
Joel: Notes from Netanyahu
UN's Ban heads to Mideast to press Gaza truce resolution
Solana speaks on Gaza I'll look for a transcript
Israel Rejects UN Condemnation as 'Irrelevant'
ANALYSIS / World cannot, must not condemn our war on Hamas
Conflict Undermines Blair's Standing
Russian warships to visit Syrian port
Syria, Sudan stress need to mobilize urgent Arab action to halt Israel's
Russia, Ukraine trade blame as Europe sees no gas
Ironically... Suspected gas blast kills 6 at Russian bailiff HQ
S. Korea to send nuclear experts to N. Korea
The Time Clock Has Run Out: Israel Ready to Strike Iran
Unusually Large U.S. Weapons Shipment to Israel: Are the US and Israel Planning a Broader Middle East War?
I think we should always preface our comments with “I don’t mean to be a stinker” ha, ha
Angie & Child – thank you for the correction re; angels -vs- mankind.
Marge – Thanks! Yes, all the same things you’ve stated I’ve also thought about, as well.
I have a Pastor Chan video on my blog that addresses how disgusted God is with that church that he spews them out of his mouth. – It’s a very good sermon.
Which begs the question – if all you need to do is believe Jesus is the Son of God, how can this be so? He “spews them out of his mouth”!!! Here’s this church who thinks they’re on the right track & God spews them out.
Lisa - you’ve listed many verses that are applicable & worth contemplation. Thus far, I agree with everything you’ve said & your opinion that the verses others are quoting are meant for when we are abiding in Christ
Here’s a few more:
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:13
Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Matthew 7:21
If it doesn’t matter what we do only what we “believe” – please explain this verse to me – because I don’t get it
Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell - and great was its fall. Matthew 7:25
Am I missing something in taking these, among other, verses literally?
Like Marge, I don’t mean to be argumentative either. I really am seeking a better understanding.
I do have to say, I’ve really gotten a lot out of this discussion. It’s made me ponder much - even beyond the intended topic.
Now, I think I’ll go back to my little, dark, corner of the cave for a bit – it’s comfy there.
The little dark corner is just fine. Just snuggle up here beside me.
“I don’t mean to be a stinker”
This discussion has also opened my eyes to the Eternal Security debate. How long has it been since the last time? Was it approx 1yr?
Before I didn't understand how one could even come to such a conclusion but now I think I get it.
It's like having a camera with a micro lens to take close up pictures of bugs verses using a wide angle lens to see a broader landscape perspective.
The unconditional eternal security types keep quoting scripture which apply to all those who are actually abiding in Christ. They are zoomed in on these concepts & see them with great clarity.
What they have not seen is through the wide angle lens which sweeps across the broad truth in scripture where those Christians who are not 'in Christ' are actually "outside of Christ." And outside of Christ we are lost.
But they are applying the eternal security concept to all Christians
living their lives in & out of Christ. To them there is no difference & no one who has been "in Christ" can ever fall away & loose there salvation because they keep focusing back on the scripture which really only apply to those who have an ongoing relationship w/Jesus-"in Christ".
But I have to come back and ask you about all of the scripture quoted about falling away from the faith. All of the warnings & all of the examples. The 7 Churches of Revelation are an easy example to view the mind of Christ. These were all Christian Believers yet only 2 of these 4 churches did not have to repent & change their ways or else. Christ did not keep them in salvation mode no matter what. If they didn't repent He would kill them w/death, remove their lamp stand, blot out their name from the book of life, fight against them w/the Sword of His mouth (which is how He defeats Satan in the Trib) & of course vomit them out.
There is no guarantee that once you are a Christian that there is no possibility of falling away. ***That is why there are so many warnings about it.
However; there is a guarantee that if you remain "in Christ" that nothing can take away your salvation. Does that not make sense? It's only Jesus who is our life cord to life it's self. It only He who can raise the dead & create life. Apart from Him we are nothing and have nothing.
The other way salvation can be lost is just simply becoming deceived by a false teacher/prophet. Therefore the warnings to be strong in the Word of God & our relationship w/Him so that nothing can wedge in and separate us.
Angie:
"I believe that the idea that we can lose or reject our salvation once we have salvation is a lie from the enemy."
Really? And what is the enemy trying to accomplish in your mind?
What is his intended objective? Do you think he would be trying to discourage people somehow?
I was reading the book of Jude which is about Apostasy creaping into the early church.
(I'm still unclear on the different "Apostate" types)
In Jude 22,23 I only really see two distinctions here. Do any of you see three?
"But you, beloved, building youselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
And some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh."
Footnotes
[1] 1:23 Greek chiton, a long garment worn under the cloak next to the skin
There were some good comments here but this person sees three tyes:
Fighting for the faith 1
Fighting for the Faith 2
Fighting for the Faith 3
Lisa,
I think the enemy can accomplish many things with the lie that we can lose our salvation. We can turn our focus to work. We can lose our security. We can doubt God. We can doubt ourselves. It can take our focus off God and turn it toward ourselves and/or our works.
For me, to believe we can lose or reject our salvation means I don't trust God. Trust is a real issue for me. But I've been a Christian long enough to see what God has brought me through. To see that He is faithful, even when I'm not. He's remained faithful through all my doubts and my sin.
Through Him, I'm a new person. He's changed me in ways that I was never able to change on my own. He's changed beyond my wildest expectations. I draw a great deal of security in knowing that He won't abandon me and won't let me walk away from Him.
I've seen His Face (His nature). I trust that He will complete the work that He began in me, just as scripture promised.
If I were to believe that I could lose my salvation, I wouldn't have the security and faith that keep me close to Him. It would be hard for me to keep growing in my faith and growing spiritually. I believe that the thing the enemy fears the most is faith. And causing our faith to waver would be to rob God of His ability to have an intimate relationship with us and to equip us to do His work.
Angie
Mr Hyde - you scoundrel! You know very well I belong to another!
tsk, tsk
Angie,
You wrote:
If I were to believe that I could lose my salvation, I wouldn't have the security and faith that keep me close to Him. It would be hard for me to keep growing in my faith and growing spiritually. I believe that the thing the enemy fears the most is faith. And causing our faith to waver would be to rob God of His ability to have an intimate relationship with us and to equip us to do His work.
Angie, I think that your "if, then" scenario above is easily disproved by the many examples of mature Christians who DO believe that salvation can be lost.
For example, because of denominational affiliation or statements that they have made, I would say the following people believe that a person can lose their salvation after being born again:
Dr. James Dobson (Nazarene)
Pastor Jack Hayford (Foursquare)
G. K. Chesterton
John Wesley
Late Night Lisa
Alesia
Marge
Jim Carroll
Surely, you would agree that the above person have (or had, in the case of those who have gone to be with the Lord) "the security and faith that keep [them] close to Him." And surely, there is evidence that these folks have kept growing in their faith and growing spiritually.
Remember my friend Mark? Regardless of whether or not he was ever saved or whether he is saved now (that is debatable), there is ample evidence that the "eternal security" doctrinal position he held and argued so strongly for while we were in high school did not have the affect that you think it has on a believer.
P.S. I'm not trying to be a stinker.
Angie,
I also think that you confuse belief in a particular doctrince with faith. Hebrews chapter 11 (that great chapter listing heroes of the faith) describes things that people did, not things that people believed as evidence of faith.
Maybe one of the big differences between the two doctrinal camps here is the different concepts of what it means to be saved.
The "eternal security" folks seem to think that a single event describes salvation (i.e. sincerely being born again on a certain point in time).
I think the non-eternal security folks see the born again event as the beginning of a relationship with Christ that is free and available to all but that "salvation" means that a person remains in Christ so long as they have an active faith in Christ. Faith isn't a one time event and it is something that involves free will.
Thougtful comments found on another blog:
For me I see double talk with those who hold to eternal security. On the one hand those who hold to eternal security will reject the notion that such teaching embraces sin as a way of life by insisting that those living in habitual sin "were never saved to begin with" often citing Matthew 7:21-23. Then they will turn around and insist that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God including sin (Romans 8:38-39). Yet this is nothing more than double talk.
The Arminian approach is that:
We are eternally secure in an eternal Jesus (Hebrews 7:25). We remain in Jesus by grace through faith (Romans 5:1-11) and that is a continued faith in Him (1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:6-19; 4:1-16; 5:8-9; 6:4-20; etc.).
Continued living in sin and in Christ is impossible (1 John 2:3-6; 3:6-9). To do so will lead only to destruction and apostasy (Romans 6:1-23; Hebrews 6:4-20; 10:19-39; 12:1-39; 2 Peter 2:1-22). As new creations, we must not abide in sin (2 Corinthians 5:17) and if we do so, we are in danger of falling from grace (Galatians 5:1-4) and committing apostasy without which there is no repentance (2 Timothy 2:24-26).
Within Arminianism there is no double talk. The pursuit of holiness is not an option for the disciple of Christ (Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 1:15-16). Jesus called us to be perfect (Matthew 5:48) and that is my aim and goal (2 Corinthians 13:9,11). I am keeping my eyes on Jesus who is the author and finisher of my faith (Hebrews 12:1-2) and not on my own works. Jesus alone is my righteousness (Romans 3:22-25; 10:4) and He alone is my security (Psalm 27:1-2). My goal is to please Jesus completely (Philippians 3:8-10) and to walk in obedience unto Him alone (John 8:31-32). I want to abandon my flesh and kill it (Romans 8:13; Galatians 2:20). I want to walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the desires of the flesh (Galatians 5:16-17). I don't want to be disqualified from this race that I am running (1 Corinthians 9:24-10:21). I want to continue for all my days to seek those things which are above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God (Colossians 3:1-4).
From 85 Verses on Conditional Security
Robert Shank in his book, Life In The Son, has an appendix in the back that lists 85 passages of Scripture that teach conditional security. These verses are not meant to debate losing your salvation but simply to show that Arminians have more than a few passages of Scripture that teach that we are to continue in the faith until the very end. I will post these passages and would encourage you all to memorize them if possible as I did several years ago by writing them down in my journal and then looking up each reference followed by taking each passage and memorizing it as much as possible. This is helpful even if you are not an Arminian (Colossians 3:16-17).
Matthew 18:21-35; 24:4,5, 11-13, 23-26; 25:1-13
Luke 8:11-15; 11:24-28; 12:42-46
John 6:66-71; 8:31-38, 51; 13:8; 15:1-6
Acts 11:21-23; 14:21,22
Romans 6:11-23; 8:12-14, 17; 11:20-22; 14:15-23
1 Corinthians 9:23-10:21; 11:29-32; 15:1-2
2 Corinthians 1:24; 11:2-4; 12:21-13:5
Galatians 5:1-4; 6:7-9
Ephesians 3:17
Philippians 2:12-16; 3:4-4:1
Colossians 1:21-23; 2:4-8, 18-19
1 Thessalonians 3:1-8
1 Timothy 1:3-7, 18-20; 2:11-15; 4:1-16; 5:5,6, 8, 11-15; 6:9-12, 17-21
2 Timothy 2:11-18, 22-26; 3:13-15
Hebrews 2:1-3; 3:6-19; 4:1-16; 5:8-9; 6:4-20; 10:19-39; 11:13-16; 12:1-29; 13:7, 9-14, 17
James 1:12-16, 21-22; 2:14-26; 4:4-10; 5:19-20
1 Peter 1:5-9, 13
2 Peter 1:5-11; 2:1-22; 3:16-17
1 John 1:5-2:11; 2:15-3:10; 5:4-5, 16
2 John 6, 9
Jude 5, 12
Revelation 2:7, 10-11, 17-26; 3:4-5, 8-12, 14-22; 12:11; 17:14; 21:7-8; 22:18-19
If the Cave was a church, what denomination would we be? I vote for CMA (Christian Missionary Alliance). Here' why.
CATCH THE VISION!
Renewing the Call to a Deeper Life
By Paul L. King
excerpt from above article:
AN INTERDENOMINATIONAL DENOMINATION
The Alliance was to be an association to promote healing, sanctification and the Second Coming of Christ. Recognizing the power of corporate prayer, Simpson envisioned a “prayer alliance.” While we have developed organizationally into a denomination, we endeavor to be a living movement and to retain our original spirit by being open to people from all denominations, as well as those with no denominational background. I like to tell people we are an “inter-denominational denomination.”
Simpson’s Alliance comprised Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, Holiness church members and others. We continue to welcome people from all backgrounds. We have a sense that all are integral parts of a team, each fulfilling a role in the Body of Christ for the sake of furthering the Kingdom of God.
We are an “inclusive” movement that does not impose many doctrines, just the basic tenets of evangelical faith and our own emphases on healing, missions, the Second Coming and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit. For example, the C&MA does not take an official doctrinal position on Calvinist/Arminian issues such as eternal security. We believe in the imminent, premillennial Second Coming of Christ but do not specify one’s belief on the rapture. We accept both charismatic and noncharismatic styles.
If you are concerned about the comment "We are an “inclusive” movement..." you should read their doctrinal statements as well as the Alliance Distinctives. I just read their position paper on Sanctification. It's excellent! I'm not CMA by the way, I'm currently a member of a Foursquare Church.
P.S.
Ravi Zacharias was ordained by CMA if I'm not mistaken.
I'd like to re-iterate that I see both sides of this debate/discussion as important. I don’t know about other people’s circumstances but I do know that God has wooed me for many years to get me to a knowledge of his Truth (as opposed to my previous condition). I actually think the process began when I was about eight and in Catholic school. All those years He persisted with me – prodded me – sent me hints – showed me patience. Will that patience ever run out? Did I need that special attention to get here? When, exactly, was I saved? Can I lose it? In His omniscience, would He have bothered doing all this work if He knew that one day I’d apostate and lose my salvation? I have more questions than answers but I don’t think so. Perhaps there are paradoxical drivers working here that I will never fully understand this side of my Glorification. I’m cool with that. But the fact that I have some (albeit faulty) inkling of what God did to get me here gives me faith that He will get me over the line...despite myself.
Biblically Defending Salvation (online book)
Gays and atheists: Joined at the lip
THE NEW WORLD DISORDER
Globalists 'salivating' over collapse of U.S.
Warning issued over drive for Constitution Convention
What Ted Haggard can still teach the church
Jim G,
You said:
"Maybe one of the big differences between the two doctrinal camps here is the different concepts of what it means to be saved."
I think you may be onto something - it seems I keep going back to that point in my line of reasoning.
Thank you for taking the time to post all those verses!
Jim Carroll -
did you receive the photos I sent you via email a few days ago?
Alesia,
Just to be clear, it was a cut and paste of all those verses (as well as the comments above them) from the blog I posted a link to;-) I want to give credit where credit is due.
I have read Life in the Son though. If you have enjoyed this discussion, you'd love that book. Mac would probably like it too.
I agree, God takes the initiative and woos us with His Love. I believe he woos all people with His love.
Jim. G,
You're the first person ever to dispute my experience with God, so I guess it's best to end the discussion and agree to disagree.
Angie
Lisa,
For me, loving God isn't a work. It comes naturally. The longer I walk with Him and the more He reveals His face (i.e., His nature) to me, the deeper the love goes.
Loving other people is a choice I have to make, and making that choice is an area where I need a lot of work. I have to chose to let Him work through me in loving other people.
I hope that made sense. There are a few instructors at work who aren't terribly lovable people, but I've decided to put my feelings aside and ask our Father that He work through me so they can see the Son through me. Both are very worldly people full of pride, and they need Jesus far more than they have any idea.
I'm not sure if this helps answer your question, but maybe you'll get something out of it.
Angie
Angie,
I'm very sorry. I'm afraid I communicated the point I was trying to make poorly. I didn't mean to dispute your personal experience with God. I was trying to show that it can't be applied universally (since there are other mature believers who are secure in their salvation that don't embrace the doctrine of eternal security).
I was in no way questioning your sincerity or honesty. Please forgive me if I offended you. I've never met you in person (or anyone else here at the cave for that matter) but I consider you all dear brothers and sisters in Christ.
Bin Laden calls for Holy War to stop the Israeli/Gaza war
3 rockets fired from Lebanon hit north Israel; IDF returns fire
Clinton says, "NO," to Hamas talks
Israel seeks Russia's pressure on Syria, Iran - Livni
'PM stands by his version in diplo spat'
Obama wants Europe to close Iran loopholes
Europe baffled by broken gas promises
Natural gas detected off Haifa coast.. Israel
FYI-everyone. This Obama administration is going to be one wild ride. (I know most of realize this but now it's breathing down our necks. It's getting steamy around here!)
This was off "Cutting Edge." Interesting info:
The Washington Post, January 13, 2009
"Episcopal Bishop V. Gene Robinson, an openly gay man whose ordination helped touch off a worldwide struggle within his denomination over homosexuality and Scripture, will deliver the invocation Sunday at a concert to kick off the inaugural celebrations, officials said Monday."
"The Rev. Sharon E. Watkins, who leads the liberal-leaning Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), was tapped to give the sermon in the National Prayer Service at Washington National Cathedral, which concludes the inaugural ceremonies -- the first woman to lead that service."
"The selections of Robinson and Watkins round out a group of theologically diverse ministers who will play prominent roles during Barack Obama's inauguration.
Evangelical pastor Rick Warren will deliver the invocation during the inaugural ceremony -- a choice that riled some Obama supporters because of Warren's opposition to same-sex marriage -- while the Rev. Joseph Lowery, a black Methodist civil rights activist, will give the benediction."
This list is significant:
1) Gay Episcopalian Bishop
2) Liberal Woman leader of the Disciples of Christ
3) Purpose-Driven pastor Rick Warren
4) Black Civil Rights Activist Lowery
One professor believed that this list of very different Christian leaders holds great significance to understanding the future direction of the Obama Administration.
"Shaun Casey, an ethics professor at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington who served as an Obama campaign adviser, said the diverse choice of ministers is a 'precursor of what the administration is going to look like'."
Bishop Robinson was particularly galling in an email he sent out bragging about his role.
"In an e-mail to friends posted on the Web site Episcopal Cafe, Robinson wrote that 'it will be my great honor to be there representing the Episcopal Church, the people of New Hampshire, and all of us in the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community'."
Since America is already experiencing the same prophesied slippage into accepting the gay lifestyle of Sodom and Gomorrah, we should not be too shocked by the remarks of Bishop Robinson or President-elect Obama's action.
But, Bishop Robinson is only a small part of the overall picture of the prophesied apostasy of the Christian Church. While this news story focuses only on America, this apostasy is occurring all across the globe! As the Apostle Paul stated in 2 Thessalonians 2, Antichrist cannot arise until the Christian Church slips completely into Apostasy.
That time appears to be upon us now, and President Obama is poised to lead the way!
Alesia, yes! I got them! Thanks!
<><
Jim,
Apology accepted, brother. I wasn't offended.
Lisa had asked about my statement that we can lose our salvation being a lie from the enemy. Specifically, she had asked what the enemy hoped to accomplish with that lie. I started with a generic answer, then switched to my own experience to give Lisa one example of something the enemy could accomplish with that lie.
I agree that we can hold different beliefs and still up spending eternity with God...as long as we accept the work of Christ on the cross (a basic Christian doctrine).
Angie
One reason I don't doubt or question my tethering to Jesus is to put it simply "I will never leave you or foresake you." Then add to that this one from 1 John 4:4 Greater is He that is in me, than he that is in the world.
That He who is in me is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ and when sin comes knocking at my door, because of the Holy Spirit I recognize it as sin, Slam the door shut and turn my back on it, most generally. When I don't, it is time to pray and turn it over to God. Christ also said No man can pluck you out my Father's hand. Now I realize that sinning is the natural nature of man but it is a choice that we make and repentance is always ours for our failures. John said in 1 John that any man (or woman) who says they don't sin is a liar. A lair has no place in heaven so it becomes very clear that we have to acknowledge we all fall way short of a perfect life and walk with the Lord. However, He is quick to forgive us our sins but repentance is actually turning completely away from that besetting sin and don't open the door the next time it comes calling.
Life is a series of testing and proving. As you get older the testing isn't taking the toll that it once did because the hormones are going to Florida or California, anywhere else to find excitement. The body begins to lose it's beauty and the fluffiness gets serious.
So, Jim G. I know where Angie is coming from and I say this in all sincerity: Crucifying the flesh will start to establish your confidence in God's ability to keep us. Besides that Jim, God sees the beginning and the ending, right!? So if he sees the ending he already knows the sins that we will be battling before we are ever brought into the family of God. The main thing is to repent and get on with it. Get that Little Green Alien out of the house and enjoy the unmerited favor of God.
I know this might seem a long comment but I am just getting warmed up and you should have seen the one I didn't post! You should be very thankful.
I love you all and please don't get the idea that old women don't sin they just know it pays to ask for immediate forgiveness. Memories are pretty weak but sin is a strong force to be dealt with on a minute by minute schedule. Sinning is a rebellion against God's treasured laws and acknowledging them is one of the most important things we can do. We do deserve judgment but because of Jesus the judgment has been deferred.
Love and blessings to all,
Grany
By the way, I am NOT Calvinist in the very least. I am a saved, sanctified child of God who loves the Lord and I also don't wear pink sunglasses in this world. John 3:16 says it all for me on regarding Calvinism!
Grany,
I just read that "Overcoming Adversity" book which is primarily about why God tests us and how to be overcomers during the low spots in our lives.
Some of the reasons mentioned was that it "eventually" gives us confidence (as we learn to fully depend upon God),developes our character, and brings glory to God as people witness how Christians handle tough situations -when our character is developed-with joy.
We are all overcomes "in Christ" for He has already overcome the world. But-the firery testing & trial is a "teaching tool" to break down our natural barriers of yielding to God. The big ones are Pride & Fear. The end result-actually becomming Christ-like.
So first we are broken-then built back up upon the only lasting foundation-Christ Jesus.
So Grany-in your long life of experience I bet you know what I'm describing here. You have gained that full confidence in Christ and are secure "in Him" and your eternal security. Still remaining humble of course-as even pastors have thought they "attained it all" only to later became prideful & eventually fall. (But you know your not going there so no worries!)
Another great book I'm currently reading is called "The Heavenly Man". Anyone read that one?
It's about a man in China (Brother Yun) who starts up the house churches in his region of the country & all that he has to endure & overcome for the sake of spreading the gospel.
What this man goes though is unreal. But-he goes through it all "in Christ." You would have to read it to believe it. We just don't hear of these types of things here in America. Quite sheltered I suppose.
The great part of this book is it really describes his relationship with God & how God assists him in all of his sufferings & persecutions.It provides great detail how this man overcomes what he's put through-& he did it by putting every word of warning in the Bible to heart & using these things as tools to keep his focus on the Kingdom & His relationship w/Christ.
This example was reinforcing to me what some of the Christians will go through being persecuted in the Tribulation period & how they also indeed will be overcomers.
Revelation 21:7 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly,.....shall have their part in the lake which burns...." (even the cowardly are in trouble! Would a Christian who fears physical pain more than God Himself deny His name?)
**Anyway-I'm about 1/2 way through & really recommend it. Who knows. We ourselves may find some of the information in it useful if ever we are put through any type of persecution even remotely close to what Brother Yen endured for the sake of taking up the cross & following Jesus.
Another great book I'm currently reading is called "The Heavenly Man". Anyone read that one?
I've read the book, Lisa.
I have a question for those who don't believe in OSAS. Since I don't believe scripture supports it, I'd be interested in knowing what scriptures you think will answer my questions below.
If we can lose our salvation, does that mean the Holy Spirit is taken away from us? Can we become saved again? If so, what do we have to do to regain our salvation? Do we have full rights as children of God restored? Do we get the Holy Spirit back? How many times will God change His mind about our salvation? Where does God draw the line on our sins...what sins and how many do we have to commit to forfeit our salvation? Will he endlessly take us back if we repeatedly lose our salvation?
Sorry for so many questions, but they come with the idea that we can lose our salvation. Scripture has to be able to answer them, and I don't see any answers in God's Word for any of my questions.
Angie
Lisa,
I have read Heavenly Man as well, a few years ago. It was very good. It made me cry, repent, and think. I highly recommend it to everyone!
Interesting discussion going on here the last few days. I have been here only hit and miss due to work an I wish that I had the time to join in the conversation. As it is, I am a little afraid for my hubby. Although he was "saved" years ago before we were married he just does not act like a person saved by grace. He does not read the bible, he never repents or says he is sorry for deliberatley hurting my feelings, he does not teach his children the ways of the Lord at all and I just found a huge bottle of vodka hidden in his cabinet. He has always been a beer drinker and we used to drink the hard stuff long ago but this really shocked me. He has been mixing it with juice in the evening when we are all home together. He is angry and blaming all of the time. He does not act like one who has made Jesus lord of his life. He did at one time though. He used to pray with me. We used to attend church together. I have asked God to have mercy on him and if he is His son to please treat him like a son and discipline and convict him. i don't see it though. I am very disheartened. So, did he loose his salvation? did he ever really have salvation? Or was he like one in the parable where the seed fell in the bad soil? I am very confused about it and ache, really ache, for my dear hubby.
I will now take the time and go back up to read all that has been written by you dear people on the subject the last few days!
Diana
Diana,
The Lord loves you and your husband more than you can fathom. Regardless of where he stands in terms of his eternal destiny, I think we can all join you in praying for your husband.
Lord, we pray for Diana's husband. Please open his eyes to you and your truth and love. Make him hunger for you like never before. Protect him from the lies of the enemy. Be glorified in this situation we pray. For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
Angie,
We just quoted a bunch of scripture which supports the
non-OSAS view. Did you look at any of those? I don't mind posting them again but I'm not quite sure what you don't see & are looking for. Here is a link which quotes some more in "red." Eternal security is clearly taught in many places in the Bible.
I don't think a born again Christian would fall from grace & bounce up & down like a yo-yo. saved/not/saved/not/saved.... Its serious business & a heart issue.
Nor do we yet know all the mysteries of God so the Bible does not detail how many sins it takes. It does say murderers, liars, adulterers, idolaters, apostates/ false prophets & teachers/ sexually immoral/ etc... Point blank will not inherit the kingdom of God so I can say with confidence that if someone is doing those things & is unrepentant they will end up loosing their salvation. The 7 Churches in Revelation is another great example. Read what causes them to loose it there.
I also do not know the intricacies of the Holy Sprit but we do pray to be renewed & have him fall afresh on us-so it's a continuing process. Sometimes we have more of His annointing than others-which has nothing to do w/salvation. But a hard heart eventually snuffs Him out from being able to work effectively in our lives.
Temptation/Sin/Death-The context is speaking to Christians here:
James 1:12 :Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.....But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed,Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown (mature), brings forth death.
(**The specific sins are not mentioned here other than when they are "full-grown".)
If I see someone I know who's changed & they stay out partying, or sleeping around, or stop going to church & or loose interest in talking about God, or lie, & what have you- If I love them as I should-my motivation is to encourage them to become right w/God ,realize what's up & repent.
If I thought they were saved no matter what they did - then I wouldn't give a hoot & would have nothing to say. Why upset the apple cart?
God forgives anyone who repents as many times as they repent. We can see this in how He dealt w/Israel. They were fully restored as Children of God as if they had never backslid in the 1st place.
His forgiveness removes our sins from east to west-they will be remembered no more.
Many of the parables Jesus taught also represent conditional eternal security & I think they are the easiest to understand.
The teaching in Matt 24 about the Faithful & Evil servant is one of them. This brother is a good teacher & has a nice manner. Listen to his teaching on this parable & see if you can understand what Jesus is trying to communicate in this regard.A Closer Look with David Servant: Parables of Jesus (Episode #01)
Here is another good one Matt 13:Sower and the Soils This one has more to do with people's heart condition.
(I wish I could find parts 2 & 3. The wise & foolish Virgins & the Talents are examples as well. The oil represents the Holy Spirit in the Foolish Virgins parable. It doesn't say what they did to not have oil (Holy Spirit) but we know they were not watching & waiting for the Bridegroom but rather lazy & sleeping. Not feasting upon the Word of God and remaining in Christ I would guess.)
"...enjoy the unmerited favor of God"
Amen, Grany, what a great line! How true!
Enjoying the unmerited favor of God, I believe, is part of the abundant life that He promises us!
Knowing that He will be with us always, no matter how far we may happen to stray. He is the Shephard who will guards, protects and saves His sheep.
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[4] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 8:38-39
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Please know I am joining you all in prayers for Diana's husband and family, in Jesus' name.
"I agree, God takes the initiative and woos us with His Love. I believe he woos all people with His love."
Jim G; I absolutely agree with you that God woos everyone. I do not believe in Limited Atonement although apparently that's how it came out. I should have made that point clearer.
I should also apologize if that link refers to Arminians in a bad light. I thought the on-line book made some good points in the body but it's a pity that some cannot debate without being personal.
Diana, my heart goes out to you and I will pray for your husband.
Does anyone here read Beth Moore's LPM blog? Today Beth invited the bloggers who are experiencing difficulties due to the financial mess to post prayer requests. So far I think there are over 300 posts. Heart wrenching. So many people are hurting, and add to the financial problems divorce, troubles with children and family, substance abuse, any number of problems and on top of that no faith in God. At least the women at Beth's blog are predominantly believers.
I think I will go pray.
Jim C, how is your job search?
And Boro Eagle, how are you? Please let us know.
Diana,
I know how you feel. Especially the shock of finding a liquor bottle hidden. Been there felt that.
Sounds like he is stressed out & depressed. We all handle bad times differently. Of course as Christians we are supposed to handle it by full reliance upon Christ by faith.
God is the reader of hearts & created your husband so He knows just what to do. Continue to pray for your husband & have faith that God will deal with him in His way & His perfect timing.
In my case we have been going through adversity for years & seems as if we are almost at an apex right now. I keep wondering if it will ever end.
I honestly think God is trying to break my hubby's pride (which he had an abundance of) to the point they he has no other choice but to fully rely on God for everything.
My hubby is resistant & I'm seeing God work in his life but I tell you its sure taking a LONG time in my eyes. God will only work as much as my hubby will yield his will to him. He barely yields so we're in for the long hall. When God began the chastening I responded quickly-learned to yield my will & spiritually matured @ a speedy rate.
Even though it's not exactly non-stressful for me to watch what has been going on & deal with all the consequences-God is also using this adversity to build my character as well. I've learned to have joy in the midst of it by keeping my focus on God's kingdom.
Hubby even admitted that I've handled this unusually well. I gave all the glory to God of course.
I'm not the depressed/negative type but last week after a night of little sleep I finally just had a day of moping around depressed. Finally everything just got to me & I walked around like a little baby. mope,mope,mope. I guess I wonder if my hubby will relent and yield to the Lord if our situation will change. I long for a husband who I could communicate spiritual matters with. Husband & Wife joined w/Christ=a very special bond & three cords not easily severed.
It could be that we are so close to the Day of the Lord that through all these financial difficulties a great slew of people are being tested/tried/wooed back to Christ before His return.
I see some tiny fruit-change in my hubby the past year. It's no great shakes but what can I say? I see an interest in God but no fire & passion. I guess if you’re courting someone it's at the "like" stage but not at the "I know you & love you" stage. So if Christ came today for the Church I'm not sure if he would be taken or left .I'm not going to spend time worrying about it when he has God to take care of him regardless. All I can do is be a good Christian example and an encouragement.
I'm sure if he's left he will sure get woken up in a hurry! God knows who will be left & most likely has a special purpose for them during the Trib.
Maybe God is already dealing with your husband as you speak w/the job situations. Would he read that Adversity book I also bought for my husband? Does he have any Christian male friends who could talk w/him? You know as a wife we can come against a defensive reaction from our husbands when they are in the middle of stressful times.
(There has been occasions in which I've said something & hubby shrugs it off. Someone else repeats the exact same thing & suddenly he gives it a positive response as if he never heard it before.)
There are times when my hubby also uses alcohol to relieve stress & still has a tendency to do just that. In fact so did his mom & dad. He laughs & me & calls me the one drink wonder. My reaction to stress is to not eat & have zero desire for alcohol. (My non-Christian family in their later years also would drink hard stuff every night to "relax.") But that's nothing new-I was always that way.
So what we are both witnessing is the fruit of not abiding & resting "in Christ." Mine has not fallen backwards but he's not exactly blossoming either. Yours was more fruitful at one time than he is right now.
So are we wondering if we have a seed planted on stony ground & plucked up? Or a seed planted in thorny ground & eventually chocked out?
All I have to say is "Praise the Lord my ground was finally fertile!!" It took awhile for me to come around as well.
If you print this out & set it somewhere would he read it? "Follow the Leader" I know reading & "hearing" what the Spirit says is the question.
Good evening everyone,
I opened the blog in the middle of the night,last night to see what was going on here but was too sleepy to respond.
I was very surprised at some of the comments. I hope that I was not the source that sparked the angry remarks. I really did not expect to change any opinions of those that post here, but was led by the Spirit to post for those that just read here.
I also considered responding to Lisa, Alicia, and a few others questions but decided to leave it alone as they were all over the board and I would have to write a book to explain why I don't think any of the verses you all cited showed loss of eternal salvation. And there are plenty of books already written which are much better than anything I would write.
And the best book is the Holy Scriptures, inspired by the Holy Spirit. And He is the best teacher of all. And He is always available. He will lead you to scripture verses that interpret scripture verses, He will never take a verse out of context and He never mixes up verses that speak of "rewards" and proclaim them as "salvation" verses. And He will never get angry at us for our questions or at our slowness in understanding. He is very patient and always speaks to us in love. And He is always delighted to spend as much time with us as we are willing to give Him.
I was just reminded of this before I sign off. Someone mentioned "Nominal Christian." I do not recall that term being mentioned in the Bible. Carnal Christian though is mentioned by Paul, could that be what you are thinking of?
Even though my heart ached after reading all the posts, I think God had a purpose even though we may not know why this side of Heaven.
Diane, my heart just aches for your situation. I will certainly lift him and you up in prayer.
You might want to review these scriture verses that speak to us about unsaved spouses:
i Peter 3:1,2 and
1 Corinthians 7:13-16
To sll, I wish you a very close and intimate walk with your Savior, that you remain strong in your faith and the strength and courage to do whatever He asks you to do. Be of good courage our GREAT OVERCOMER has already overcome the world and has assured us that as a born-again believer we too are overcomers positionally. Love to all.
Your Sister in Christ,
A Child of the King
Angie,
In response to your questions, these Scriptures might help.
If we can lose our salvation, does that mean the Holy Spirit is taken away from us?
Yes. David prayed to the Lord:
"Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me."
Psalm 51:11
Can we become saved again? If so, what do we have to do to regain our salvation?
If we are abiding in Christ by faith, we are saved. I think Scripture talks more about salvation as a relationship (as opposed to an irrevokable ticket to heaven). Relationships can be broken and restored. Our relationship with God is dependent upon us abiding in Christ by faith.
"I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5,6
Do we have full rights as children of God restored?
Yes.
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..."
Romans 8:1
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
2 Cor. 5:17
Do we get the Holy Spirit back?
Yes.
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor. 12:3
How many times will God change His mind about our salvation?
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
…"The Lord will judge his people."[ Deut. 32:36; Psalm 135:14]
Hebrews 10:26-27, 30
Where does God draw the line on our sins...what sins and how many do we have to commit to forfeit our salvation?
He doesn’t draw the line according to our sins. He draws it according to who is “in Christ” by faith. If we continue by faith to remain or abide in Christ, we are 100% secure. There is NO security outside of Christ. Christ is the line. If we rebel against Christ, we are lost. If I have sinned 10,000 times but am abiding in Christ, all 10,000 sins are paid for. If I have sinned only once, but am outside of Christ, that one sin is unpaid for because it requires a perfect sacrifice to atone for it. Now, as we abide in Him, he sanctifies us and the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
1 John 1:9
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Hebrews 3:7-18
2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Revelation 3:2-3
Surely this implies that spiritual life can die. In verse 5 the Lord says:
He who overcomes will…be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Why would the Lord continually admonish us to overcome in Scripture if overcoming is inevitable?
Will he endlessly take us back if we repeatedly lose our salvation?
No. I don’t think the Bible teaches that. Not endlessly.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
Hebrews 6:4-12
Two additional questions I think need to be considered in light of Scripture:
Does the Bible teach that once a child of God, always a child of God?
They have acted corruptly toward him;
to their shame they are no longer his children,
but a warped and crooked generation.
Deut. 32:5
Does God ever reject his sons or daughters?
19 The LORD saw this and rejected them
because he was angered by his sons and daughters.
20 "I will hide my face from them," he said,
"and see what their end will be;
for they are a perverse generation,
children who are unfaithful.
Deut. 32:19-20
P.S.
Remember, God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. NT writers frequently cite OT passages because they are applicable to the point the NT writer (or should I say the Lord) was trying to communicate.
New post is up.
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