Grant me, O Lord, to know what I ought to know, to love what I ought to love, to praise what delights Thee most, to value what is precious in Thy sight, to hate what is offensive to Thee.
Do not suffer me to judge according to the sight of my eyes,
but to discern with a true judgment between things visible and spiritual, and above all, always to inquire what is the good pleasure of Thy will.
-Thomas a Kempis-
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180 comments:
Ha ha!
Lisa, you know I love you! As an OSASer I would tell you that we are not on auto-pilot with the Lord. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is a priceless gift, bought with the precious blood of Christ and I desire to love Him and serve Him every single moment, until we die or He returns to gather us to Himself. I realize many here think I take it to an extreme, but when I see in the Word that I was an enemy of God before my salvation, I was blinded by Satan, dead in my sins, a non-seeker according to Romans...I look at my gift of salvation as God's gracious mercy on my behalf. Because of our sin we earn death. (The wages of sin is death.) All have earned death. Rom. 9:18 tells us that God has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. To sinful man this seems unjust, but we have already earned death. Is anyone here familiar with Proverbs 16:4? The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. God is perfect and just and righteous and holy. His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor His ways our ways. I just fall at His feet and thank Him that He drew me to Himself because I did not deserve it! When He bestows grace He is glorified, and when He pours out His wrath on sinful man He will be glorified.
I do think we get salvation from two different perspectives in scripture...God's and man's...but God is definitely in control!
Wonderful post Nate. Before being placed in the body of Christ we were blinded by Satan, couldn't see spiritual truth. God removes the blinders, gives us understanding, and then after we are placed in the body of Christ Satan tries to get us to misunderstand just what Christ did for us, tries to get us to doubt God's wonderful promises!
I just read Romans 9 and 10. I see Romans 9 as salvation from God's persective...verse 16 says it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Then I see chapter 10 as salvation from man's perspective...in verse 13 Paul says "whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." According to chapter 9 God determines who the "whoevers" will be. Does anyone else see this?
Kathy,
You wrote:
Before being placed in the body of Christ we were blinded by Satan, couldn't see spiritual truth. God removes the blinders, gives us understanding, and then after we are placed in the body of Christ Satan tries to get us to misunderstand just what Christ did for us, tries to get us to doubt God's wonderful promises!
How can Satan be successful getting some children of God to misunderstand and not others? From your perspective, the folks in the OSAS camp have not been duped by Satan and those of us on the other side have been duped. Why is he successful with some and not others. You said God removed the blinders when we got saved. Some saved folks (such as me) have never believed OSAS.
Oh dear Jim G, I see now how that came across! It sounded like I was applying it to this discussion when I only meant it in general terms... I was not accusing any of my friends here as being deceived. Please forgive me if it came across that way!
Nate said that Satan will attempt to infiltrate our very lives with the ideas that we need to go back to observing a law to assure our pass into Heaven. That is what he does, he accuses us and plays on the fears of our flesh that we have wronged God's Law and need to turn it around ourselves or face the fire of hell. The devil wants to render the Christian inoperable so as to keep us from sharing the answer to the broken laws of God by man. The answer is Jesus and what he did at Calvary.
This is what I was thinking about when I wrote what I wrote.
Kathy,
I seriously took no offense at what you said. I consider you a precious sister in Christ and have always appreciated your graciousness and patience when discussing this issue.
I did mean it as an honest question though. I think the denomination in which many of us became grounded in the Lord and learned about the Bible has tremendous influence on where we stand on this issue.
Interestingly, I've noticed that the churches that teach OSAS tend to include something about "eternal security" in their statement of faith.
Those that don't see it in Scripture are simply silent about it. I mean, they don't put in their statements of faith "We believe a person can fall away from Christ after being born again." It is taught in sermons from time to time though. I would say that when passages with warnings (such as found in John, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation) are taught about, non-OSAS denominations don't carve out exceptions for people who are already in Christ.
So, back to the original question, from your perspective, what causes a person like me to embrace a doctrine like this. Trust me, I have no confidence in my ability to save myself. I just realize that salvation is found in relationship with Christ and all he asks is that we remain surrendered and submitted to him.
Don't resist Him, don't grieve the Holy Spirit, don't quench the Holy Spirit. For the OSAS folks, these are serious warnings but the consequences will never result in loss of salvation (abandoning Christ). For the non-OSAS folks, the potential consequences of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit are far more serious.
OK. I'm totally getting convicted. Seriously. And I doubt it is from Satan.
Nate,
You wrote:
My perspective is that it has the potential to lead to legalism.
Absolutely brother. I do agree with that. The non-OSAS position can be twisted into that if the focus becomes works or sin rather than abiding faith in Christ. We must persevere in the faith.
I also think that the OSAS position has the potential to lead to legalism and have thought that for a long time. Some can make salvation into a formula or a law so to speak. It can go something like this. "I accepted Christ when I was young. I know I've walked away and am currently living in sin but I am still saved
because I confessed Jesus as Lord and was baptized and I know that he is Lord."
The focus becomes an event (being born again at some point in one's life) rather than the faith that is the basis for our relationship to God.
If it is indeed true that this relationship takes only one (God) to start it and maintain it, then it I don't see how we can even call it a relationship.
To paraphrase a favorite quote from the movie Princess Bride, I don't think relationship means what you think it means;-)
Kathy,
I agree that "The devil wants to render the Christian inoperable so as to keep us from sharing the answer to the broken laws of God by man. The answer is Jesus and what he did at Calvary." That would be a danger of Satan twisting the non-OSAS position.
I think Satan can also render Christians inoperable by getting them to be complacent about abiding in Christ. That, of course, would be a danger of Satan twisting the OSAS position into a license to sin (or give up).
OSAS danger -- people can be tempted to GIVE IN to sin because they believe they are totally secure in Christ. Over time, I believe that they choose to stop abiding in Christ. A result (not a cause) of this heart attitude is stopping regular fellowship with the Body of Christ.
non-OSAS danger -- people can be tempted to GIVE UP because they are deceived into thinking that salvation is based upon works rather than faith in Christ.
So, there are dangers to both positions if they are twisted or misunderstood by us.
Jim G,
You are always so gracious and I am so glad we are still good! (And I think you are way more articulate than I am!)
You asked, "What causes a person like me to embrace a doctrine like this?"
I am so struggling with how to put this…so as not to offend…
I think it is because some of scripture gets disregarded or laid aside.
(We’re still good right?!)
Jesus own words are that the will of the Father is “that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing.” (Jn. 6:39) Paul said in Romans 8 nothing will separate us from the love of Christ. He told the Philippians that he was confident that the work God began, He would complete.
I take the warning passages as self-check lists, the part of working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation is not fire insurance. Salvation is not a free ride to go into auto-pilot…
Jesus said, “He who believes has eternal life.” (Jn. 6:47) Eternal life is forever and ever and ever…
Kathy,
I just want to understand with your view of God's choosing who to save & eternally securing it.
"We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling." I recall you mention this quote quite often.**You must like this one (:
If your totally secure no matter what you do. What are you fearing & trembling about?
I guess I just don't get the logic in it.
Hey, anyone ever read about geocentricity?
It's the idea that the earth is steadfast and the universe, including the sun, revolves around it. Most modern science has taught us heliocentricity, that the earth revolves around the sun.
I found a website that believes it is loosely supported by scriptures.
But the biggest evidence lies in three experiments that have been banned from universities and colleges worldwide. Not because they create a dangerous atmosphere, but because they show thru physics that the universe revolves around the earth.
After I watched the video linked on that website, I remembered reading something in Enoch about geocentricity.
Let's just assume that the universe DID revolve around the earth.
Why would college professors and even Einstein himself, try to cover up the evidence? (Einstein himself ignored the evidence to determine his theory of Relativity)
I know the book of Enoch is not recognized as scripture in protestant bibles, I see it more as a historical reference.
But here is an excerpt from chapter 41: And I saw the chambers of the sun and moon, whence they proceed and whither they come again, and their glorious return, and how one is superior to the other, and their stately orbit, and how they do not leave their orbit, and they add nothing to their orbit and they take nothing from it, and they keep faith with each other, in accordance with the oath by which they 6 are bound together. And first the sun goes forth and traverses his path according to the commandment 7 of the Lord of Spirits, and mighty is His name for ever and ever. And after that I saw the hidden and the visible path of the moon, and she accomplishes the course of her path in that place by day and by night-the one holding a position opposite to the other before the Lord of Spirits.
Any thoughts?
Lori - I obviously haven't read this yet - but here's CMI's take on Geocentricity. They have other articles addressing it as well.
Geocentrism and Creation
Hi Lisa,
Since scripture says salvation is not by works the working out our salvation after we receive it I believe refers to our active pursuit of obedience. The fear and the trembling part is our attitude...we continually need to have a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him. I don't see it as a fear of losing our salvation since Jesus said He will lose none.
Israel implements unilateral Gaza cease-fire
Ok,
Jim C-please don't take offense.
An example of Conditional Eternal Security going Haywire-Catholicism.
Catholics in the pure sense (We all have our rebels no matter what denomination your into.) are also
believers of the conditional eternal security view. They strive for Holiness & righteousness.
But-in my opinion they are "adding" to it by requiring some mystical & works based doctrine.
(All we are saying is that you have to abide & follow Jesus Christ
for only He is the source of eternal life.)
Jim C. would have to correct me on exactly what else they require for salvation other that Abiding in Christ. You have not spoken up much on this topic ):
These are just some things they do but I don't know if it ties into actual "salvation." Come on Jim C. I know this will get you reved up!
Abiding in Mary & praying to other dead Saints-is extra-biblical.
The Eurachrist mystical blood/body transformation.
Paying money to get your loved ones out of purgatory.
Repeating so many "Hail Mary’s".
And probably some other things I'm not even aware of.
I think they are convinced that there is more to salvation than
the literal interpretation of the Word of God and these other traditions we should also follow because God spoke through the Pope's (or whomever) to give these instructions to us "after the fact" of God's written word. The line of succession from Peter.
Basically the Bible isn't the only authority & "be all end all" where to most of us it is.
But one thing I do know is they don't approve of Once Saved Always Saved. In fact some Protestants have gone to or back to Catholicism because they realized OSAS is not what they saw in scripture & figured the Catholics had it right.
Kathy,
"we continually need to have a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him."
**That will certainly keep you abiding in Him which will in turn secure your salvation because Jesus will loose no one who trusts & follows Him & remains attached to the Vine of Life. (:
"I am the true vine and my Father is the vine-dresser. He cuts away each of my branches that does not bear fruit, and cleans every branch that bears fruit so as to make it bear more. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Remain united with me and I will remain with you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit unless it remains united with the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain united with me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who remains united with me and I with him bears much fruit, but apart from me you can do nothing."
Lisa,
This passage is interesting. The Lord says He cuts away His branches that do not bear fruit. If they are His and He loses none that the Father gives Him, this cutting away then must mean something else other than losing your salvation. What does it mean?
I don't know...Perhaps it parallels with what happened to some of the Corinthian believers that partook of communion in an unworthy manner? Paul said many were weak and sick and many slept (died) for doing so.
Or, it could be referring to the tares, the look-a-like believers, like Judas, but eventually when they do not produce fruit they become evident that they were not genuine believers.
Since Jesus says He loses none, I don't see this passage describing a loss of salvation but as something else.
Nate,
That's very true. The battle of the Spirit vs.the Flesh.
Previously I wanted to serve God when I was a JW-or I certainly would not have picked that one-For Sure!! Who wants to give up all the Holidays & knock on people's doors? We were required to write down how much "service time" (time out talking w/people) & turn it in each week.
I hated doing it yet I did because I thought I was serving God. I had the desire to serve Him but I didn't have a relationship w/the Living God because I was deceived.
I ended up serving something but it sure wasn't the God of the Bible. So the whole time I thought I was serving God the only thing I was serving was the Watchtower Society. It ended up being a service of the flesh even though it appears "spiritual."
There was one Bible study I went along on and the woman was into the Occult & there were demons around. They spoke out of her as well but I was off playing w/her little kid. Another time I was downtown talking to homeless people & something really strange happened. We spoke to this guy on the street at one point then in a flash the same guy was three blocks away. There was no way it was not the same guy nor could someone run that fast.
But anyway-It is certainly possible to fall into the trap of serving God out of yourself in the flesh & not serving Him in the Spirit. First you have to find the one true God , then accept the invitation into the relationship.
He promises if you search Him out with all your mind,heart,strength that YOU WILL find Him. I was thinking about this today & it seems for most of us He really wants us to want to want Him. And then when we find Him-He stretches us to reach for more of Him.
And for some of us He removes all of the distractions so we will search Him out. For others He will actually speak or appear to them & rock their world! Others grow up in a Christian household, find Him & remain in Him.
Then when we find out who He is-do we like Him? Are we even in fact going to fall in love w/Him & obey
Him?
Right now I'm in a great struggle with the flesh vs.spirit & in the process of the vine being pruned. I've been pruned for years but this one is turning out to be a thick branch.
It's been going on quite a long time (lost all the horses & horse life even though we have a 3 acre horse property) but now the heats getting hotter & I'm desperately trying to keep my thoughts in the Spirit & walk in the Spirit. I immediately know the difference between the two & realize when I’m in the flesh.
What do you think could be a good stumbling block to a Residential Interior Designer? You've got it!
The house!
It was actually a distraction (buying furniture, remodeling,
making it really nice.)until I got back to the Lord but then my priorities shifted and God became numero uno. I learned how to walk in the Spirit, eventually moved to TN (leaving the home & lived out of cardboard boxes) then back home to be under the probability of loosing it all. Husband no job $$ = No more house.
Not only this house but with no income we will not qualify for a loan to buy another. It looks like we are headed into another renting situation & the last little horse that the girls love "Higgins" we won't be able to keep either. I'm not so sure about our dog's either. One is a Rotti & many people won't allow those.
And w/hubby constantly reminding me of every worse case scenario-I have to admit it's getting to me.
So the gal who always encourages all of you the importance of remaining "in Christ" is struggling do just that under the current circumstances. If I am truly "in Christ" I wouldn't be so sad @ the thought of leaving, giving up a horse/garden/ranch lifestyle, and downsizing the home & property & living in a little scrunched up one.
Where is my joy in midst of this trial?
It's really a war of the flesh as if we didn't have it so nice there would be nothing to be bothered about. So we are refined by trials & fire & I will come out this all the better I'm sure. I think of the attitude of Job when everything was taken from him.
Hey, it could always be worse. Like that Christian man who had the jet crash into his home and take not only his home but his entire family with it.
I realize that without Jesus I would not handle this situation very gracefully at all. I'm going to have to press in w/all my might and step up the prayer & try fasting again. (My 1st attempt was pathetic.)We all seem to have something that really tests how we handle the flesh/spirit battle.(Other than Job-that guy really had it down!)
And now mine is being nailed "right in the head!" (And to think I might have a reprieve for a little bit. Couldn't this have waited a year?)
Who knows what's coming down the pike & we may really be in for a revolt/famine/you name it in not the distant future & the family will all be better off where God places us.
It could be a double benefit.
Spiritual & logistical. Never-the-less I prayed not to become a hypocrite and preach "in Christ" when I keep slipping into dealing w/this situation "in the flesh."
I have to keep my eyes focused on the Kingdom as this earthly life (& house) is just a blink in the scope of eternity.
FYI-even w/this fierce battle raging within me there is no fear of falling away. There is no way I'm going to give in because I know how despreately I need Him & really need more of Him and less of me.
I'm just realizing it's going to take more than my norm to remain in the Spirit in this situation so the prayer & fasting are my additional weapons of choice to reach out, grow, & seek the Lord.
(I'll keep you informed how it turns out!)
(Now I wonder if Satan approached God & said "Hey, see this Lisa girl- I've known her for a long time & I see she's yours now. She's even been messing up my plans
so allow me to...... Remember he accuses us before our Father day & night.)
Kathy,
"Since Jesus says He loses none, I don't see this passage describing a loss of salvation but as something else."
See that's where we part ways. He looses none that remain attached to the vine. If we remain steadfast "in Him" there is nothing in heaven or on earth
that can seperate us.
(So that's why you can view a scripture and see one concept while I see another.)
He is our eternal life source. It's when we revert to the flesh, quench the spirit-given enough time our hearts harden & the supernatural life source from the Christ vine shrinks up until it's withered away & we die a spiritual death when it's cut.
He says "He cut's away my branches". They are brances that He already has owned & had been attached to Him. (If they were unbelievers they wouldn't be His nor would they be attached.)
He says "Remain united with me and I will remain with you." (He tells us to remain united w/ Him (the life source) & promises if we do that He will remain with us.
"Just as the branch cannot bear fruit unless it remains united with the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain united with me." He's telling us if we leave Him-no longer remain (the source of life) we will not bear good fruit as He is the source of all good things.
Apart from Him- if we leave him (fall away)then this applies:"He cuts away each of my branches that does not bear fruit."
**And I have personal experience of a branch being pruned & cleaned so there is no doubt in my mind that's true! It really works to bear more fruit! My personal branch sure must have stared out a mess (:
Kathy,
Of course we're still good. No offense taken whatsoever.
You said:
I think it is because some of scripture gets disregarded or laid aside.
Interestingly, having read so many comments from both sides (here and elsewhere), I think both sides think the other side diregards, lays aside, misinterprets, misapplies, misunderstands, overemphasizes, and underemphasizes certain Scriptures.
It's interesting how we sometimes even use the same Scriptures to prove our point. For example, we both think the parable of the prodigal son makes our point.
OSAS sees it as an example of a son always being a son, even in the midst of rebellion.
The non-OSAS see it as an example of how relationship can be broken by an unfaithful son, despite the deep love and faithfulness of the father. The father didn't force the son to return. The son could have remained lost forever. But he wisely chose to return to his father. The father never left the rebellious son. It was the son who walked away. And the father said his son was dead but now is found. Dead. Obviously, he wasn't speaking of physical death. The relationship was dead.
(We’re still good right?!)
Lisa,
Keeping you in my prayers big time! I know where you are coming from and there is something that you can do right now. Just begin to praise God for all that he is doing and will do because he said will listen and provide all that you have need of. Get your praise music out and drown out the despair and fear! It is called a sacrifice of praise. You don't feel like it but you do it because you truly do love the Lord God.
Psalm 102:17
He will regard the plea of the destitute and will not despise their prayer.
Psalm 102:16-18 (in Context) Psalm 102
Destitute in spirit and hope is just as debilitating as financially. Keep your eyes up and your faith in God anchored (super glued) to God and his promises. When the enemy comes at you one way, God will send 7 ways to escape him. Remember Lisa, God is not the author of evil and he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.
Praying in Okieland,
Grany
GT,
Regarding us being sealed by the Holy Spirit...
Ephesians 4:30 (Amplified Bible)
30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).
Just a couple of quick points on this. Sealing can refer to a mark, an impression. When we are saved (have placed our faith in Christ and begin abiding in Him), the Holy Spirit marks us as God's property. I don't think this Scripture necessarily means that this mark is forever.
Also, you cited the end of the sentence that refers to the day of redemption.
The KJV reads:
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
But, in some English translations it reads, "...sealed for the day of redemption.
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
NIV
See also the NAS, ESV, and the NKJV which is supposed to be an improvement over the KJV.
So, that is the day that we are sealed for. That tells us why he marked us, not how long the mark will remain. I think other Scriptures make it clear that we remain sealed or marked so long as we remain in him as Jesus told his disciples. That's my understanding of the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
I just saw the movie "Defiance". Wow, what a story.
Here is World Mag's review.
Some reviewers are saying it wasn't that well done, but I was very moved by it. I couldn't help but think of believers who might end up hiding out in the woods during the tribulation.
Of course we are still good Jim G!
Lisa, those are good words from Wilma. I'm praying for you too.
Oops, sorry. I see that you have to subscribe to see the whole review. Oh, well, I'm too tired to find another one and I'm sure y'all are plenty able to find one.
G'night.
Great post, Alesia!
One more thing...Lisa, I remember the worst night of my life (I won't go into details for the sake of others, but let's just say I was so hurt I went into a serious depression for months) and I knew the experience would change me for life. As I sat sobbing, I sensed a flicker of hope, Jesus right there with me and a knowledge that good would come from this. And that is where I could sense joy. It was a joy that could not be understood by someone who has not gone through utter devastation and known the presence of God at the same time. This is one of the things which helped me heal over the following months. I wonder if that little seed of joy is in you right now?
Now, for real, good night.
Just stumbled across this. I think Shank hit the nail on the head with his observation about the two doctrinal camps.
One charge that many Calvinists accuse Arminians with is that we believe that the Saints are insecure. Calvinistic theologian Lewis Sperry Chafer wrote: "While the great body of the New Testament Scriptures which bear directly or indirectly on this question declare the believer to be secure, there are upwards of twenty-five passages which have been cited in evidence by those who maintain the believer is insecure."
Robert Shank responded to this by saying: "Please excuse me from the company of any who "maintain that the believer is insecure." It is abundantly evident from the Scriptures that the believer is secure. But only the believer. Many who have debated "the security of the believer" have missed the issue. The question is not, Is the believer secure? But rather, What is a believer?"
As Alesia said to Donna: "BINGO!!!"
I too would like to request of my brothers and sisters in the OSAS camp that I please be excused from the company of any who "maintain that the believer is insecure."
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Hang in there, Lisa and continue to put your trust in Him, praising Him for all things, as Grany suggested.
We all will have trials and tribulations while we are in this realm. There is not getting around that, regardless of what some preach.
Please know that you and your family will be in our prayers.
The last thing I want to do is have us go on and on and on and on again about this whole OSAS/eternal security discussion.
But I did want to bring up one point:
Please do not equate eternal security or OSAS (which I think could be 2 different things) with Calvinism.
There are plenty of people who believe the eternal security position to be an accurate interpretation of the scripture, who are not Calvinists.
So I just had to bring that up.
:)
Nate - thank you for sharing your personal testimony.
Lisa - Thank you for sharing your story, as well. Will pray for your situation.
When I was reading your comment it reminded me of a article I read at Michelle Malkin's site:
Giving thanks for self-reliant Americans
Not sure if it will make you feel better or not - but I had admiration for the family.
Is this the “plunder” in end times prophecy?
Grace
two funnies...
Thanks Anne! I have to share with you all what happened with that post.
I was absolutely mortified by the 1st comment (the anony ha,ha)
As soon as I got on the phone with Mac, I started freaking out "What do you think they meant? Did the quote offend someone? Should I change the quote? Were they calling me a hypocrite?
On & on I spazzed out.
This goober-head (and I say this lovingly) starts busting up laughing, maniacally, in fact. (Remember, I said how scary his muhahaha is?)
He finally fesses up that it was HIM & referring to finally making the first comment!!! ARGH, men! lol
I came across this picture on my dept. assistant's Flickr page & it made me roar with laughter.
He got me this cake before I went on medical leave for my surgery.
I thought it was hysterically funny but my loved ones begged to differ with me big time, they were not amused, at all!
Nate...I agree...what a great post! Wonderful!
"Three massive gas reservoirs have been discovered 80 kilometers off the Haifa coast, at the Tamar prospect, Noble Energy Inc. announced on Sunday."
The above is the first sentence of the article Grace linked to.
This definitely could change things quite a bit in the Epicenter!
Turkey aligning itself more along the enemies of Israel side, gas discoveries...
Let's keep watching these exciting developments!
Thanks for all your encouraging words! I will keep them close to my heart.
In the "Heaven Man" book I came to a page last night where he realized that he thought he was still right w/God but found out later he wasn't. This brother had been tortured so much it reminds me of something in the Holocaust. This is a man who no doubt lived most of his life "In the spirit."
He had memorized much of the Bible the Spirit would often times answer his questions/concerns through bringing to memory a scripture verse.
There was a time in his life when he was warned by God-Then later his wife told him that they must flee(she had a dream) because someone was coming for him & he didn't want to listen to her.
The 1st warning God gave him was this scripture: Rev 2:3-5
" You have persevered & endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your 1st love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent & do the things you did @ first. If you do not repent, I will come to you & remove your lampstand from it's place."
Here is the rest:
At that time the Holy Spirit even spoke to me from Matt 2:13 "Get up..take the child & his mother and escape." He told me to leave right away, but I didn't listen to His warning.
Because I'd been operating in my own strength for months, I was physically, emotionally and spiritually exhausted. My spiritual eyesight had grown dim & my hearing dull. Pride had sprung up in my heart like a choking weed. Instead of obeying God's voice, I reasoned human logic & based my decisions upon my own wisdom.
My co-workers had warned me not to stay @ home, but I didn't heed their advice. I wasn't waiting upon the Lord w/a pure heart. This was the root of my failure. I was tired, overworked & backslidden in my heart.
Ministry had become an idol. Working for God had taken place of loving God. I hid my condition from those hwo prayed for me and carried on in my own strength,until God decided to intervene in His mercy & love.
I was getting up every morning @ 5 o'clock & praying w/other church leaders, & I was still reading my Bible every day, but I was doing these things out of obligation & habit, & not from a willing heart flowing from my realtionship w/Jesus.
(....Four days after Deling's dream (his wife's warning dream)
Because of disopedience and disrespect for the Lord, wife, & my co-workers, I went to prison for a 2nd time. The Lord saw that I was exhausted in the ministry, so he graciously allowed me to rest behind bars for a while & learn about my spiritual life.
If you are a servant of the Lord, let me encourage you to please,please, humbly watch that you don't slip into the same error I did. The Lord God jealously desires us for Himself. He is the lover of our souls. If we ever put anything before our relationship w/Jesus-even our work for Jesus-then we will be ensnared. If you are burned out, stop! Rest! Your lamp needs infilling of the Lord's oil or your light will be snuffed out. Remember that "In repentance & rest is your salvation, in quietness & trust is your strength, but you would have none of it....Yet the Lord longs to be gracious to you; He rises to show you compassion. For the Lord is God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for Him! Isa 30:15,16
His 2nd term in Prison was much nicer than the 1st & God used it to restore him & also bring others to Himself through "the Heavenly Man."
Lisa,
I'm also agreeing with you in prayer, along with others, for a breakthru in your circumstances.
I just wanted to tack on an additional thought to Wilma's comments. Prayer and Worhip/Praise are a great weapon to combat the enemy. And it is (often) a sacrifice.
Hebrews 13: 15 says:
Through Him, therefore, let us constantly and at all times offer up to God a sacrifice of praise, which is the fruit of the lips, that thankfully ackowledge and confess and glorify His name.
Amplified Bible
We all need to answer the voice of discouragement when it comes into our circumstances, and hearts. Don't allow discourament to have the final word. Talk back to it, like David did, in 1 Sam. 30: 6b:
But David encouraged and strengthened himself in the Lord his God.
Worship/Praise, along with encouraging yourself in the Lord, are voices that will defeat discouragement/satan in a believers life.
Just a few thoughts this Sunday.
Happy God's day to you all from Okieland! The Sun is shining brightly but not as strong as Thee Son!
Hubby and I have already had a very good discussion about our president elect and what it means to this country and to all of us. We really had an excellent discussion and found out we both agree on the major parts and the question of the Anti-christ came up and also Tribulation. On that, I really had to pray for guidance from God not to go overboard. This is probably about the 3rd time in our married life that we have even discussed the possibility of such a thing. Never about the Anti-Christ before in such deep questions. I thought of Kathy and Jim G alot while presenting my opinions and interpretation.
Now, let me tell you something that will, I hope, get your feet to dancing and your shout being set free. I was watching and keeping notes yesterday evening on my Perry Stone's "The Rapture Revelation" and didn't realize that Jim (Hubby) was hearing the whole thing. He hadn't made a peep and I didn't know about it until we started our discussion this morning. His whole demeanor has changed about God, Jesus, and especially where we are going from here and what and who is in control of the events. It about blew me out of the water, so to speak! Let me put this in perspective for you all: 10 years ago Jim didn't want to hear anything about Jesus and the virgin birth. He didn't believe in that sort of thing because it wasn't possible. He didn't believe in after life when he died; you die you are dead, end of story. He didn't think God talks to anyone. He (Abba) is God and does not do that. People who say that God speaks to them are crazy! Mentally ill and he gave it the proper name that is taught in Universities all over the world.
He also did not believe life on earth would ever cease and definitely the planet and all of the universe were created but by what or who was beyond knowledge. You could call him an Agnostic or even close to being an Atheist. Not quite an Atheist because he knew there was a Greater Being he just didn't have any relationship knowledge of Him.
Five years ago, he did bend a little but not much and then today he really floored me! Prayers are being answered and let me say this to all of you; it is being done wholly and completely by the Holy Spirit and not by me. I learned a long time ago that it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and not any human. We condemn but He Convicts. So, my conversations with Hubby have been very contained but directed to reading God's Word for Himself. Jim is a very educated man and he loves to study. His questions this morning were the result of what he has read, what he has observed and what it going on in the world that relates to it. When I pray here at home, I do so out loud but I am not rocking the foundations in doing so. God is not hard of hearing and I don't have a spirit of Fear. This morning was and is a big wake up call for me and I am so glad that God has done this marvelous work in the one man that I truly love with all of my being.
I have read all of the comments and started to respond to each one but then I realized it would take up the whole page, so, instead I shout "Great words of sincere wisdom and love from each of you!". You all win the coveted Blue Ribbon right now but then, when we come face to face with our Lord and Savior, how much greater his words will be to each of you.
Hang in there Lisa, you know you are made of the right stuff to get through this and overcome it in complete victory. Woke up this morning praying for you so I know the Holy Spirit is on the case big time.
Grany
Grany,
God is good, and good all the time!
(Sorry, folks, but I haven't taken the time to read what's been posted today, and I have to go pick up my daughter. Hope this doesn't duplicate what someone else has said.
Somehow, though, I doubt that would happen... :-) )
Lisa, Shalom! I've been keeping quiet in this debate (skipping most of it, actually), because reading it makes me realize how separated Protestant and Catholic thought is on the subject. So many of your statements reveal such a grave misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine that the best I can do is refer you to documents that explain the doctrines in question -- it would take too much space for me to explain them here. (It's already too long, so I'll break it into pieces.)
Let's start with this article, Is Salvation an Act or a Process?. Among other things, it points out "So our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained for us by his death on the cross. God desires to put this holiness within us, or as Hebrews 12:10 says, "that we may share his holiness." That is the ultimate rationale behind the Catholic view of salvation: to share in the holiness of God. Nothing less will save us!"
Before we go on, I have to put forth a defense to some of the statements you made. Two in particular are:
I think they are convinced that there is more to salvation than the literal interpretation of the Word of God and these other traditions we should also follow because God spoke through the Pope's (or whomever) to give these instructions to us "after the fact" of God's written word. The line of succession from Peter.
and
Basically the Bible isn't the only authority & "be all end all" where to most of us it is.
Let's see if we can get an agreement on this: before the mid-to-late 300's the Bible (as we know it) didn't exist. By that I mean that there was no universally agreed-upon canon of works that were accepted as 1) being inspired by the Holy Spirit and 2) being authored by one of the apostles. The recent controversies over "The Gospel of Mary" and "The Gospel of Judas" should point that out. (And raise your hand if you ever heard of "The Gospel of Thomas".) Is there an agreement on that, or does someone have a generally-accepted source that says otherwise?
Multiple gospels and letters purporting to be from various apostles, many with widely varying claims of truth -- they couldn't all be true. So during this period, three different Church councils called upon the Holy Spirit to aid in their discernment, and all three selected the Canon of the Bible as it exists today. (They selected the Septuagint canon of the Old Testament for two reasons: 1) it was the Canon of Jewish texts that was used by all the synagogues in the Roman world [i.e., outside of Israel], and 2) when the Gospel writers [writing in Greek] had Jesus quoting Scripture, they had him quoting from the Septuagint translation rather than any of the Hebrew translations of the texts.)
So until this canon had been agreed upon, there COULD be no "sola scripta" because there WAS no "scripta" to be "sola" -- it was a combination of what the apostles had written down, and what they had taught ORALLY to their followers. This is the basis for what Catholics call "Sacred Tradition". (As a side note, go look up "The Didachae" or "The Didache". It was basically the "How To..." script for being a Christian. Check Didache at Early Christian Writings.)
Now, just so we're clear on some things: If it contradicts what is in Sacred Scripture, it cannot be part of Sacred Tradition. All the teachings -- and I mean ALL the teachings -- of the Catholic Church can be traced to Sacred Scripture. Also, Sacred Scripture cannot be added to or subtracted from. This means that no man, not even the Pope, can approve the addition of "a new Gospel" to the existing Canon or can add or subtract anything to or from the existing Canon. (Unless you're Martin Luther, of course. For some reason lots of Protestants seem too willing to give him a pass on adding to Scripture.) The Pope, as the Supreme Bishop (Teacher), is responsible for the final interpretations of Scripture, but there are enough fail-safes in place that he cannot simply proclaim something to be true that cannot be supported in Scripture.
TO BE CONTINUED...
...CONTINUED
Abiding in Mary & praying to other dead Saints-is extra-biblical. "Abiding in Mary" is an image to show the familial nature of G_D, that not only will G_D protect us, but that we as Children of G_D can run to Our Heavenly Mother to hide in her mantle while G_D Our Father is out bashing the baddies. It's not a matter of doctrine, i.e., you're not required to believe it, but it does provide spiritual comfort for those who do. I think you need to go back and re-read that biography of Scott Hahn that I linked to in the last blog entry, and pay particular attention to his description of the Covenential Relationship.
"...praying to other dead Saints-is extra-biblical." Again, it depends on which Scripture you're using. The Catholic canon contains scripture that supports this view. It's the Christian canon that existed for over 1,000 years before some freethinkers decided that the people living at the time the decisions were made had it wrong. With that in mind, here is a list of Scriptural citations that support the Catholic view of Purgatory, a word you never hear mentioned in Scripture, but then, Scripture never mentions "Trinity" either. I think after reviewing these citations, you may find yourself thinking that "Purgatory" is a concept that reconciles both views, pro-and-anti OSAS:
Mat 5:48
Heb 12:14
Jam 3:2
Rev 21:27
1 Jn 5:16-17
Jam 1:14-15
2 Sam 12:13-14
Mat 5:26, 12:32, 12:36
2 Macc 12:44-46 (part of the Septuagint)
1 Cor 3:15
1 Pet 3:18-20; 2:6
2 Tim 1:16-18
1 Cor 15:29-30
You also may find this entry from the Original Catholic Encyclopedia on Purgatory to be useful. Be advised: this was written back in 1913, and has quotes in English from documents in Latin written a few hundred years ago. Make yourself a nice cup of tea before tackling it. These people were trying to precisely define concepts that don't translate easily into English. The effort, however, is well worth it.
TO BE CONTINUED...
...CONTINUED
The Eucharist mystical blood/body transformation. I'm always confused about this one. Protestants say that Catholics don't believe what the Bible says. Yet the one time when Catholics proclaim as literally true what Christ said -- "This is My Body, which is given up for you", and "This is My Blood, the Blood of a new and everlasting Covenant. It is shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of Me" -- Protestants say No, Jesus didn't mean THAT!
Paying money to get your loved ones out of purgatory. This is a great sin. For the record, this was not something that was rampant through the Church. There were a number of itinerant priests who abused their power and privilege to preach this falsehood. They were eventually punished, but the damage to the Church had been done. (As a side note, one result is that there are no more itinerant priests. There were priests who traveled and made their living by "accepting donations" for saying Mass and hearing confessions. Since there was no oversight of them, in some cases it devolved into actually charging for their services -- charging money for gifts G_D had given them, aka, simony. As a result, every priest nowadays is under the charge of a bishop (or abbot, if they are monastic). They may accept a role of traveling preacher, but cannot accept donations for themselves, and cannot minister outside their diocese without the express permission of the local bishop.
Protestants, I understand, have no such problem with ministers who are constantly asking for donations "to help their ministry" while flying personal jets and living in large mansions. But I digress...)
If you'll read the article on Purgatory I linked to earlier, you'll see that the concept is intricately linked to the idea of offering prayer and sacrifice for members of the Christian family, both living and dead. The sacrifice could be through fasting or through giving alms. The sin of those itinerant priests is that they focused their preaching strictly on sacrifice, and not sacrifice through fasting or any other means, but sacrifice through giving alms to their (the priests') own charity. They did this in such a way that the alms giving stopped being something to be offered from the heart but a ransom price for their loved ones, when the ransom had already been paid through the Blood of Jesus.
Needless to say (or so I thought), the Church does not teach or support the providing of indulgences through organized alms giving. It DOES support prayers and sacrifices for the Holy Souls in Purgatory.
I can tell I'm going to have to do some explaining on that last statement. However, please don't ask me any questions about what I'm going to say until AFTER you've read that article on Purgatory. That will just save a lot of time and blog space.
Purgatory is a state or place for those souls whose sins have been forgiven, yet still have some mark, stain, or attachment to the temporal world. It is where they "grow away" from their attachments or the effects of their sins. A blacksmith may be forgiven for the errant blow on the horseshoe, but the results of that errant blow must be reheated and beaten out before it can be perfect for the King's horse. Likewise, Purgatory is necessary for those who have been forgiven of their sin but not yet perfect in their rejection of sinful life as it is on earth. The souls in Purgatory are called the Holy Souls because their eventual acceptance into Heaven is guaranteed. St. Bonaventure wrote, "Fear is cast out because of the strengthening of the will by which the soul knows it can no longer sin", and St. Thomas said, "...unless they knew that they are to be delivered, they would not ask for prayers." This belief in Purgatory is why lots of Catholics don't answer in the affirmative when asked "Have you been saved?" It's a question that the answer won't be known until after death, and the hope and faith is that regardless of how many times one sins, each act of repentance will bring you closer to heaven; and if one is not pure enough for heaven there awaits one final act of mercy where G_D will purge us of all that holds us back from His Love.
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My God, may all minds know Thee, all hearts love Thee, and all tongues praise Thee now and ever more my JESUS!!!!
Wahoo GRany!!! God's word does not return void, but I know I don't have to tell you that! I'm just celebrating with you that our Lord who started this work, will complete it in Jim! Wahooooooooo! (As okie as I can muster)
Lisa, I'm praying for your situation. A friend at church is going thru some similiar circumstance. Her husband was let go from work 2 days before Christmas. They have 3 kids under 15.
She said she has a peace about it. She also asked, "Do you ever feel like God is removing distractions from your life, so all you have left is Him?"
There is a cleansing going thru the church. We had made some really stupid financial decisions and are dealing with the results. We've been selling off what we can to survive. But the more we get rid of, the better I feel spiritually.
It is painful process, but God is our provider. He wants us to totally trust Him.
I went to work this last summer. The gas was at its highest, and I sustained an "unproven" injury to my back, so we actually lost money and ended up farther behind.
Grany knew I needed to quit. (Thanks for the confirmation) I even stayed on a little too long, but when God said, "That's it!" I left for good.
I'm still praying for wisdom. That God would show me ways I can help bring an income into our home to reduce debt and/or reduce expenses.
Know you are not alone, many here share financial struggle.
God is our provider and he takes care of the flowers and birds and he'll take care of you too!
That Perry Stone teaching was good!
I was watching an episode online and he was in Israel. He said he loves Israel because it's a local call.... too funny!
I just had a very pleasant thing happen to me and I have to share!
I bought a jar of wonderful jam from the Ararat Valley, Armenia and get this label "HARVEST SONG, sun, seed and soil". Immediately I thought of SON and then I got happy, very happy! Exceedingly Happy! Hallelujah! Jesus is alive! Death has been defeated and the grave been denied, Jesus lives forever, He's Alive!
I had to do it before I popped a cork! Thanks for letting me turn it loose!
Grany
Joel has another new post, re the natural gas discovery. When I saw that article I was reminded of one of his books, can't recall which one. Very, very interesting.
Cute, cute Alesia! Here I thought it was Mr. Hyde!
Grany, you have much to be happy about today, and I know you will say every day, too true! Your Jim sounds much like my father-in-law, only I think Jim sounds less hostile towards Christianity. We have been praying for him for 35years.
Grany,
I've just been listening to, I've Just seen Jesus, by Sandi Patty and Larnelle Harris. Awesome! It really IS cork popping time in the heavenlies! Victories to be won, in the name of Jesus! Amen!
Hi Jim C.
It's going to take me awhile to get through all your material-but I will.
I can feel the effect of all your prayers & my attitude is in the process of adjustment-I can see the light!
Not only that but the service today through our Pastor was taylor made for our situation.
(as many other Christians as well are going through the same set of circumstances.)
I think hubby came out w/some more understanding but still doesn't "get it" completely. (Should I hit him over the head w/a rubber mallet?)
And Grany-Praise the Lord for your hubby!!! The mountain to climb in your situation was even greater than mine!
OK-now this is really weird. Now I get it-suddenly there is an answer.
Last night a "lottery ticket" kept coming to mind. I was really bothered by it because I don't buy them. Then I thought- is God trying to tell me to buy a lottery ticket? What does His word say about that? I NEVER buy them but my Husband has in the past. Allot of Christians don't approve of it either. So I prayed last night about a "lottery ticket" and asked Him is this source form Him or is the devil whispering in my ear? Like I'm going to buy this lottery ticket & it's going to win & relieve our problems. Is this thought either a lack of faith or is this an instruction?
So I came to the conclusion that- if God wants me to buy a lottery ticket then He's going to send someone to give me w/one because I'm not going to do it. If he wants us to keep this house then either God will provide business for Hubby or it will come about another way.
So after the service we went to lunch & spoke w/hubby how great the service was in our predicament.
Everyone agreed even my Mom.
Then get this: Bill once again brings this up over lunch-(I didn't mention a word nor anything about lottery tickets.) "I was thinking during the service today IF I won the lottery-THEN I would give $$ to provide a "horse" related ministry to children to give them an opportunity to experience horses." I asked him if the gospel would be shared through this experience & he said yes.
So my husband's condition for generosity & compassion is based upon overabundance. First when my husband's priorities are met THEN he will give back to the Lord. It's a me first scenario w/out faith & trust.(Remember I cringe @ his generosity in this regard. Obviously he has some growing to do in this area.)
**We had this same conversation before about a month ago-aparenty it didn't change his perspective. I had asked him If his business indeed flourished-would he give a part of it back now to further the Kingdom of God. (The answer was not unless he won the "LOTTERY")
So I encouraged him again today that the Lord would provide for the kid's college education & such if He willed & that we should be compassionate & giving at all times no matter how much $$ we have.
Our pastor was making the point today-the more we are blessed w/the more we have to bless others with. The poor are the most highly exalted in God's mind & heaven will be filled w/allot of them. (The complete opposite of what our society says.) And last but not least-spiritual maturity is more important to God than what we have.
If you don't get w/the program so to speak-God is going to make sure you get w/it one way or another-out of grace & love-even if it means stripping away all of your wealth. (Not to say everyone is stripped for the same exact reason-but it's one of them. The other is is your trust in "things" or is it in "God"?)
He also brought up Job-and how Satan accused Job of only loving Him because he was blessed w/possessions. (Then the test came.)
I thought this may-and I repeat "may" sink into hubby's head but the "Lottery Ticket" @ lunch confirmed the opposite.
Then after as I was driving home I felt the Lord ask me if I loved hubby enough to go through whatever it takes for his sake. I agreed so there you have it.
That's not saying this circumstance does not also apply to my spiritual health as well but certainly confirms what this "Lottery Ticket" idea was
all about.
Thank you for all of your concern-Our God does indeed answer the prayers of His righteous saints!!!
Praise be to our Lord-forever & ever! AMEN.
Nate,
Very good article. I can't help but consider a reason for a mass restoration of His children just may be that Jesus may be returning soon!
What a way to learn about the Lottery! Now that's what I call a rubber mallet on the head.
All those times of playing then the one time you don't the winning numbers come up- I bet your groggy state was instantly restored to full alert status!
Schedule of events for Obama’s inauguration
Green Inaugural Ball at the Donald W. Reynolds Center for American Art and Portraiture. Ball hosted by former Vice President Al Gore.
(Is this the first "Green" Ball or did they have one for Bush as well?) Does Obama jump from Ball to Ball or just attend one? They even have a Hip-Hop Ball.
Traditionally, the newly inaugurated President and his wife make appearances at all the "official" balls.
Some of the comments at the end of this article are a sad insight into what most believe!
Christians are becoming social pariahs in Britain, claims Jeremy Vine
I keep wondering what sense of sheer shock and horror some people might experience when they realize that there really is a God; that He's angry and that He's taking back this world.
Rev 6:15-17 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Grany at 10:24, nice post.
I haven't read many of the posts today. I've spent a little time at Middletown Bible church reading up on Atonement (Limited and Unlimited), Lordship Salvation v Free Grace, with questions on the applicability of the Sermon on the Mount to the church and some Dispensationalism thrown in. Yikes! I feel like I've been too long on a merry-go-round - just a tad dizzy! It's been a little much for my peanut brain to absorb at one sitting!
Lisa, Shalom! Have you tried leaving a copy of "Unlocking God's Secrets" around for him to peruse? (Perhaps in the bathroom -- it's the one place and time I don't need to justify in order to "sit down and read.") I found the section there on tithing to be very inspiring.
Nate, Shalom! That's why I never play "my" numbers. I always let the computer pick them. That way, it's totally in G_D's hands as to what (if anything) I win.
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Sorry about the deletion!
Thanks for reminding us about the Middleton Church Website.
I looked at the Saved By Grace Alone article and it teaches what I believe the bible teaches about all of beins saved by grace and walking by faith.
(I am not too on top of some of these new terms...so am not sure what this teaching is called or labeled, but for what it's worth, this is an accurate, sound teaching, IMO.)
Mac, thank you.
Yesterday was a mountain top experience and so now, I am wondering what today has in store to try to spoil it! I am praying and standing on God's word that said "I have not given you a spirit of fear but of power and love and a SOUND MIND!"
All the extra stuff in that quote is from me! We are going to Ft. Smith today to replenish the pantry and there will probably be many people out celebrating MLK's holiday. Do you suppose the next 4 years will be one long and continuous MLK Day? LOL
We have work to do and little time to get it all done but Mac's remarks about God's anger really set some bells off in my memory. Somewhere on the web there is a great sermon on "When God Gets Angry" and I don't remember who it was that preached it but it might have been David Wilkerson of Times Square Church. Anyway, I will try to find the link and post it for you all. I think it would be wise to get the pink glasses off if anyone believes that God doesn't have a stopping point and that he is capable of getting our attention. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Moses, Samuel, the list goes on and on.
Well, no time to preach now and besides you are all aware of it anyway. By the way, how are our dear silent ones today. I keep hoping and praying that you will jump right in here and share what you are doing, thinking and experiencing.
Lightshine, Linda Lou where are you girl? Thinking of all our friends as we complete another day, week, month and or year.
Grany
Made a typo on my last comment. Lightshine and Lindalou but I left out the "and". Also, made girls singular. Dratted Little green Aliens. Lisa, you gotta help me keep those things out of our blog.
Grany
Grany,
If/When those little "gray" Aliens are allowed to reveal themselves-(although there are a "varity")If we are still here-I'm going to laugh my head off!
At least I'd most likely know what type of work God would call me to do in a time like that.
You'll see me on TV warning people what they really are & then one of them will Zap me!**But God may not allow that either (:
Perry Stone has just posted that he has a tape of some wierd happenings in Israel.
The Bizarre Mystery of the "Flying Rods"
Lisa, I saw that on his web site and looked it up in Google or Yahoo, maybe both. Anyway, they do exist and have been seen by numerous people. There are even pictures of them and very vague explanations.
One day, while Jim and I were snorkling in the waters off of Peter's Island (close to Tortola, British VI) we witnessed the same thing. Our captain was video taping our attempts to gracefully get into the water from the ships ladder and those things showed up in the tape. At first they were just a glimmer of light but we set up our equipment when we got home and slowed the tape down and there they were. Weird to say the least. DVD's were not heard of then and we have the tape somewhere in our film storage but we thought we had found something really unique.
I am thankful that we will be gone Lisa when the Aliens are revealed. I don't want you getting zapped for any reason what so ever. Punch drunk with joy is all we will settle for.
I just found an interesting site that was explaining God's Longsuffering and it really turned on some lights for both Jim and I. If you would like to see what I am talking about go HERE
Grany
still biting my tongue at times-suffice it to say that sometimes graciousness is in the eye of the beholder.
as to the tp issue-who cares what direction it comes off so long as there is some. and scrunching and folding depends on ones mood.
Lisa
as to sectionalists with food-you never said your husband was a romulan.
Lisa and Grany, Shalom! The "Flying Rods" mystery didn't start until the advent of photography. A few months ago, the Discovery Channel had a program on them, examining the most prevalent theories. While you can't say they proved that "Flying Rods" don't exist, they were able to duplicate the effect. In their experiments, they used synchronized video cameras, one shooting at the regular 30 frames per second, the other shooting at 1000 frames per second. In this way, they showed that the "flying rods" captured in the regular camera, in the high-speed camera turned out to be large bugs or (in one case) a bird.
Think about it: if you're shooting with your standard home camera, you're probably using ASA200 film -- a medium speed film. You're not adjusting your camera's shutter speed or anything like that, which will be fixed at a medium speed for daylight or bright flash. Anything that flits through at a speed faster than the shutter click will show up as a blur -- a flying rod. A professional may be using a faster speed film, changing the shutter speed, etc., and would catch the object, and identify it as a bird or an insect.
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Nate,
I just read the article you linked Special Report: The Other Side of the 'Great Debate'
I am soooooooo frustrated with it, I want to scream. Why is the non-OSAS position continually misrepresented as in the following mischaracterization?
In this view, the forgiveness of Christ is not all-sufficient and His power is limited and conditional upon human behavior.
Jesus cannot keep you after salvation unless you are somehow able to keep from sinning from there on in. If you sin hard enough, you will sin yourself out of His Hands, in spite of His promise;
That's simply NOT the doctrinal position that those of us in the non-OSAS embrace.
By the way, the author also argues that grace can not be a gift because it charactrizes the way that the gift (faith in the author's view) is given.
That is simply wrong. Look up the Greek (Blue Letter Bible makes it very easy to do). Or go look it up in Strongs. It is a noun. A thing. God's grace is his favour. It is His grace (noun) that saves us by faith. Some think the faith is something that is divinely bestowed upon persons by God's sovereign choosing. Others think it is something that God asks of us, having given us free will. Exercising our free will is not works in my mind. It allows us to choose to either have faith in God or to try to earn our salvation ourselves. I believe that we must choose to enter in and continually abide in Christ by faith.
Jim G,
This paragraph was in the article Nate linked yesterday...
"Despite all that Peter denied, the key to this message is his repentance. The true Peter is seen not in his denial, but in his repentance. We don't wonder if Judas was a true believer because we know how his story ended--He hanged himself. Judas was not repentant. Peter didn't hang himself; he wept bitterly and then came back to be restored. Therein lies the difference between people like Judas and people like Peter. Both will sin, but one is repentant and will be restored while the other one is unrepentant and will be damned. Why is one repentant and not the other? Luke 22:31-32 is the key: Jesus said, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not." Do you know why Peter's faith didn't totally fail? Because the Lord prayed for him. The reason we stay saved is not the result of something we've done, but of the sustaining power of the Lord to keep us saved. Jesus didn't keep Judas saved because he never was saved."
The abiding issue has been brought up many times. Both Peter and Judas were called...but only Peter ultimately abided. Why? It wasn't because of Peter's ability, but because Peter was kept by the power of God, even after the most heinous sin of denying the Lord. When we think the ability for abiding comes from within ourselves...I see how one can be fearful of losing their salvation. But when I understand that it is God's power that gives me the ability to abide, I do not fear losing my salvation for Jesus says He loses none. I'm kept by His power. What I fear is sinning and bringing great grief to the Lord.
Kathy,
I did read that article. Thanks for pointing that section out though. Good stuff! I wonder if we (those on both sides of this issue) could replace the term "saved" with the phrase "in Christ." We all agree that all who are "in Christ" are saved. I don't fear losing my salvation.
I can't say I agree with the ultimate conclusion but there was plenty of Scripture to ponder.
By the way, you really got me digging the other day when you pointed us back to Romans 9-12 (or thereabouts). Stay tuned... I have uncovered some good commentary on that. What's great about it is it brings this all back to Israel and God's promises which we are witnessing being fulfilled in these last days.
Blessings to you and Nate and everyone else who has been patient with me on this.
I really don't know if Judas was ever "saved" or not. I admit that it is quite possible he never was.
Why would Jesus warn him though about being the one to fullfill Scripture if it was inevitable? Seems like the Lord would warn those who have a choice in the matter (that is a choice to yield to God, have faith in Him, and accept his offer of forgiveness and life).
Funny (and true) dumb sheep story.
I attended Washington State University. While there, we attended Onecho Bible Church and met a couple that we became good friends with. He told a story about when he worked as an insurance adjuster.
He got a call one day to go out and examine a claim someone had about losing a couple dozen sheep.
You see, there was a railroad line that ran through the sheep farmers property. Apparently, one of the sheep decided to go lay down on the railroad tracks. Who knows why. Of course, as sheep will do, many others followed.
Well, sure enough, a train came and it was a bloody mess. Dead sheep scattered everywhere. The guys insurance claim was verified and accepted.
Jim G, if Jesus loses none, then Judas was never saved, right? All that the Father gives to me, I lose none. Judas was never a gift to Jesus, but in the scheme of things, he served God's purpose...what Judas meant for evil, God used for good.
Kind of mind-blowing...
Jim G,
It appears that if someone has a different view-this OSAS discussion for example-that the writers have to assume something completely unbiblical in order discount the possibility that the other view may have actually have truth in it.
If a fundamental truth is blasted @ the gate w/unbiblical accusations then there is no purpose into really attempting personal objectivity & looking into it. It's already been found flawed so why bother?
I just don't want to be standing before Jesus one day in shame because I had the opportunity but didn't act upon it to encourage a fellow Christian to repent & turn from their ways because I figured there was nothing to worry about.
If God's going to keep them in line then great-but he may want to use me in the process to nudge them back.
I hope all of you regardless of your eternal security salvation view will encourage all your fellow Brothers & Sisters in Christ to strive for spiritual maturity & press ahead in a Christ like lifestyle. If someone is erring that you will care enough about their relationship w/God to reach out in love & help them.
We can all look forward to the day when Jesus brings the Church back to complete unity in thought & deed & we will all be happy as clams.
Meanwhile we have a "great falling away" and people running around getting their "ears tickled" so as the work becomes greater the laborers will become fewer. We have been called & chosen to be those laborers - or why would we all be here with a desire to study eschatology?
Sound the alarm-Christ is returning soon & we are to be prepared & filled w/oil @ His coming.
The Christians who have run out of oil are not invited to go back w/Him @ His return. Let's encourage all Christians we come into contact w/to be full of oil even to overflowing & to give those who never had oil the knowledge of where to find it.
AMEN.
Jib,
That's funny-I had to look up what a "romulan" was.
San Francisco Walk For Life participants called "terrorists".
SF Defend Right to Abortion Rally
<><
Oh come on, now, JIB...don't be bashful!
Salus interviews the Frucht:
PROPHECY & TODAY’S JEWISH STATE – Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum
Any thoughts about tomorrow? I'm trying to be positive and a good, patriotic American. But I have a bit of nervousness in my gut.
I thought this was interesting:
Kenyans Celebrate Obama's Presidency
Many Kenyans hope that, as president, Barack Obama will help improve conditions for the vast number living in Nairobi's sprawling slums.
Members of the tribe living in Kibera expect much from Obama. A mother whose child's distended belly protruded from an unbuttoned shirt said she hoped Obama would "bring us food." A man loitering in the shade said he wanted more jobs in Kenya.
Otieno was more specific. He said he hopes Obama will work with Kenya's prime minister to bring infrastructure to Kibera. With running water, electric lines and garbage removal, Otieno sees the potential for a better life there, even if the slum's corrugated metal roofs and flimsy wooden walls never change.
There is quite a conversation going on here about "eternal security."
I went back and read the comments on 2 or 3 previous posts. I am pleased to see the calm discussion by so many of you.
It appears to me that this conversation is going on in a lot of different blogs and forums. And, I've noticed that there are many more sermons on the subject this past year. Could it be that the Holy Spirit is trying to get our attention now that the time of our rapture seems to be just over the horizon?
I would like to make a suggestion to those of you who are still studying, a presentation by Chuck Missler which may be helpful. For those of you who are just as convinced of conditional security of salvation, it probably won't be helpful to you.
I personally have never known anyone who is firm in either position to change their position via debate.
Chuck's presentation (5 parts)is from his radio program 66/40. It is really a 2 hour Bible Study that they have divided into a 5-part study with minor overlapping.
This study can be found at this web address:
http://khouse.org/6640/CD009-7/%20-
%2019.2kb
I pray it will be a helpful study.
Allan
Even so, Come LORD Jesus
Thanks for the info, Allan.
How did you find this blog, anyway?
Dear precious Nate, you hit the nail on the head with your remarks and now I can go to bed with your words on my heart and mind. Thank you big time.
Anne, you asked what tomorrows attitude should be and I will confess I have been praying and seeking God's face in all of this too. But His word never changes and he told us to pray for our leaders but I think it goes further than that. We have to thank God that He is able to quicken the heart, minds and souls of these men and women who are elevated to a power position over the populace. Let's ask God's blessings on this New President, that he Protect, guide and be an ever present influence to give Obama wisdom that comes from God, ability to know the truth and stick with it, to build up and not tear down and to prevent deception from creeping in under any disguise. That he put a wall of protection around the Obama family and cause his enemies to be scattered.
This country cannot survive if we remain divided and even our outgoing president, George W. Bush, has asked for our prayers. Let's stand for the right but not to the point of hating and anger being in our hearts and coming out of our mouths like the press has been about GWB. I celebrate the man's victory over the obstacles he has had to overcome and I we should be even more mindful of what could be accomplished if we all pull together.
We cannot expect his term in office to be perfect and we do have the right and responsibility to speak up when there is deception and wrong doing taking place. Whether we voted for him or not and whether we like him or not, let's work together until Christ comes to take us out of here.
Grany
Grany,
Amen!
United we stand, divided we fall.
Amen Nate, Grany and Marge.
Lisa and Jim G, I was wondering if you had the chance to look over the info from the Middletown Bible church link.
It is pretty simple and basic and perhaps could clear some things up as far as the eternal security and walking by faith issues go.
I also wanted to mention that as you all may recall, my husband and son have been building a house to sell...and with the nosedive the economy has taking we have been really concerned about it, etc.
Well....these people came "out of nowhere" and offered us 91% of the asking price and want to do the landscaping themselves and some other things as they want to bring horses there!
WOW! SO the contract is signed and they are really excited!!! As are we!! As is our realtor! Its the first sale they've had in 4 months.
Real estate around here has been extremely slow. The same houses have been on the market for a long time.
Our realtor said that these people were "sent from heaven".
I can not tell you how much I have prayed about this and have asked others to!
I praise and thank Him for all things!
I hope and pray it moves forward with no glitches!
Thank you for your prayers!
<><
Donna,
If I remember correctly, you were one of those who are solidly an OSAS advocate. I particularly like this program by Chuck.
I am a member of Baruch HaShem Messianic Synagogue at Dallas.
I have just returned home from being overseas mostly working with new Church Leaders from the Middle East. We were giving a presentation yesterday afternoon, and at the social afterwards, a bunch of us were sitting around sharing about all the great things that were going on in Israel, and Joel's name was brought up by Jeff and Marty about what Joel and The Joshua Fund was accomplishing in the M.E. They gave me Joel's new website address and during the discussion about his not having comments on his blog anymore, it was mentioned that Joel's former bloggers were still blogging and one of the ladies gave me the web address. So, while I had a few minutes I decided to take a look.
I had posted several times when Joel still had comments on his blog but that was a long time ago.
Several of the posters contacted Baruch HaShem requesting info about our services, and ordered Messianic literature, and tapes. I didn't recognize any names here from Joel's old blog, but it has been a long time.
I am making a trip to Washington before we head back to Israel and the Middle East, but I doubt if I will be able to see Joel unless we happen to be there at the same time. I do plan to visit the McLean Bible Church while I am there. Do any of you know Joel's pastor, Lon Solomon? A wonderful man of God. His sermons are online also.
Well, good luck with your discussions.
Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem,
Allan
Allen,
I agree all this talk on eternal security could very well be an issue with the Holy Spirit @ this point in time.
Since we are living in the end times and Jesus may be returning soon makes perfect sense to me.
I guess then I shouldn't bother ministering to the Sunday Church attending Christian college student living with her boyfriend.
After all she was rasied in a Christian household.
If she gets in a car wreck tomorrow & dies she's eternally secure and will only loose out on some rewards.
So what's the point?
When Jesus asks me why I didn't minister to her I'll just tell him that you all convinced me she was saved even while living in rebellion.
And as for the practicing gay's who are Christian-I guess they are all saved as well so what's all the hubbub about?
They had said the sinner’s prayer-stopped their gay lifestyle but later in life returned to it. Hey-these types are all still saved too-so you might as well let that gay preacher back up on the pulpit & tell the world we are all eternally secure. God will make sure his life turns around just in the nick of time if you have any doubt about it.
Now I'm started to feel all warm & fuzzy inside. We are just one big born again eternally secure happy family! What have I been concerned with all this time ?-what a silly wily I am!
Maybe I should go attend one of those prosperity Churches while I'm at it & join Rick Warren's Peace Brigade. After all-they don't preach any hell fire sermons & I can hear about the Love and everlasting grace & unending mercy of Jesus.
The blinders are off-now I can see!
We can be in Christ-out of Christ-on top of Christ-beside or below Christ!
My behavior has no bearing nor is it a reflection of my salvation-I can grieve the Holy Spirit to my hearts content. Yippee-I'm free at last~! Don't worry! Be happy!
My true concern & focus will be w/the unbelievers from this point on. I'm certainly not going to waste any more of my time or feel a burden for the house of the Lord.
Once saved, Always saved!
It all sounds really interesting and exciting Allan!
Thanks for all you have been doing and for taking the time out to say hello and for pointing us to Chuck's site.
You and the work you are all doing will be in our prayers!
Keep us posted!
<><
Maranatha!
Allan,
By the way-welcome to "the cave" as it's called. I have a recollection of that name from Joel's old blog.
We all do support Israel, Joel, and & the Jewish people.
Hope you're one who likes to "join in" !
Lisa
Lisa,
I'm turning the other cheek.
I love you, and I forgive you.
In Christ's Love,
Allan
Nate,
I agree it should never ever be a question & we should assist our fellow brethren regardless out of love as it's been commanded but unfortunately for those Christians not living "In Christ" it apparently is an issue. They do not have that love & concern and a majority of the Christian Churches in America appear to be spiritually sick. Why are so many living a lukewarm life?
I run into "Christians" all the time who never even speak of Christ. They all know I'm a Christian as well. The only topic I ever seem to hear is about kids,jobs, & the cares of this world.
Maybe I'm a bizzare individual but it just so happens to be my favorite topic.
So if we can agree so many Christians are Lukewarm-what do you think is the ultimate cause of this? Is this the pastor's fault?
What are they teaching or not teaching the sheep?
Allan,
Thank you! I think the entire discussion on this topic has finally gotten to me.
I apologize for the tone. There is an amount of seriousness & concern to the remark.
So tell me in your view-is the Christian girl living with her boyfriend saved if she died today?
She grew up a Christian & is currently going to Church every Sunday. She was born again but now appears to be backslidden. She realizes it's wrong to live w/her boyfriend but doesn't plan to leave the situation.
Does 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 apply to her?
Lisa,
I think that you should do what the Holy Spirit leads you to do.
First of all, I think you should talk to the LORD in prayer about any brother or sister and listen to His leading.
No matter whether the person who is in sin, is a brother or a sister or one who does not know the LORD, the person needs to be approached with love. The Holy Spirit knows what work He may have already started in that person's life. And, if He indeed feels you are the person to take the next step with them, He will absolutely let you know what He wants to be said to them. He also may ask you to continue praying for them as He has someone else working with them.
Everything we do or say should be at the Holy Spirit's leading and in His power.
I commend you for hurting when you see a brother or a sister who is not walking as our Savior would have them walk. It is sad, but there are a lot of Christians who feel that it is not any of their business, and may not even inquire of the Spirit what he/she should do or say.
I am not going to debate the OSAS doctrine with you. You have already made up your mind. And, that discussion would not solve anything. My mentioning Chuck's Radio program was solely intended for those who said that they are still looking for an answer. And, I felt led to mention it to them.
I understand that you feel strongly about your position, but I feel strongly about mine too. But, I certainly am not going to alienate a fellow brother or sister over a difference in opinion over this issue.
Go with and in the power of God,
Allan
Maranatha!
Thanks for dropping by, Allan. Please feel free to post again when you have time.
Lisa, while I take your point I would caution about using hypothetical situations to determine biblical doctrine. I see great value in praying for, and counselling, a fellow Christian about a particular (or any) sin. I confess that from personal experience that sin (in the past) has sometimes made me reticent and ashamed about getting down on my knees to the Lord. Sin adversely affects our relationship with Him, so just from that perspective we should be out there encouraging each other to NOT sin.
Mac,
The details Lisa provided in her comments posted at 10:00 I believe were NOT hypothetical. I recall her sharing that she really did meet a girl in this situation and the Lord used this topic as a door to speak truth into her life and encourage and/or admonish her.
Jim G; I believe in the last comment she used a hypothetical scenario re the girl's possible death and whether she would be saved.
I strongly believe that we can make judgments and assumptions about certain situations BUT that we should use Scripture in the final analysis.
Lisa,
I forgot that you asked about whether 1 Cor. 6:9,10 applies. I noticed that you stopped at 10 and did not include 11 and 12 for the whole context of that subject.
No, that is not the scripture I would use. But before I started to counsel them I would know what the Spirit wanted me to say and show them.
Allow the Holy Spirit to lead you, they made need several other verses to help them see what the Holy Spirit wants them to see and He knows what will convict them of their particular sin. He, and He alone knows if they have been baptized into the Body of Christ.
Shalom,
Allan
Mac,
Thanks for your cordial welcome. You were one of the ones for whom I mentioned Chuck's radio program, as I recall you said you were still looking at it.
Well, this has been interesting, but it is way past my bed time. I'm heading towards Washington, D.C. on Wednesday with a few stops in between.
We are going to be home for about a month then we're headed back to the Middle East.
All of us working in that area covet all the prayers you can send up for Israel and her neighbors. Such a huge need and so few workers.
Look up, I can hear the footsteps of the Messiah.
Shalom one and all,
Allan
P.S. I may not have time to get hack on before I leave again for the M.E., but if I don't know that I will be sending up prayers for the believers on this blog.
I will see this girl again on Thursday as the manner in which the situation came about appears Spirit led.
I've gotten the "if I died right now" question before from an unbeliever & I expect it would be reasonable that she may ask the same thing although she considers herself a Christian.
There is more than one passage in the Bible which states that the "sexually immoral"...will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
In 1 Cor 6:11 it goes onto tell "And that is what some of you were.But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ & by the Spirit of our God."
I think we can agree that you become washed, sanctified, & justified by true heart felt repentance & that they were no longer continuning in "sexually immorality" in verse 11. They were now born again following Christ.
Verse 12 & beyond explain sexual immorality & why it is a sin.
Rev 21:7 Mentions overcoming then verse 8) But the cowerdly...sexual immoral....their place will be the firey lake....
Gal 5:19,21 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality.....and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Eph 5:5-7 "For of this you can be sure: no immoral, impure or greedy person-such a man is an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one decieve you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them."
It pretty cut and dry to me from scripture but since there is another view on this I wanted to know what that answer would be as well.
I'm not sure what I'll be led to say until the day comes & there has been more than one time I've given more than one view on a matter. Usually in regards to various end time beliefs-such as rapture timing-Anti-Christ, etc...
I think the Gay Church situation is also going to explode within the next year or so as well & are we going to have the correct Biblical answerers to defend our faith?
Better to discuss it now & be ready with an answer than be caught by suprise in the future because we didn't search it out or give it much thought.
1 Peter 4:17,18 " For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
(Is there a difference between the "ungodly" & a "sinner"?)
Over the top, Lisa. No one here is taking that attitude towards one who is living a sinful life, sexual or otherwise.
Lisa,
I have been reading over your questions about the Christian girl living with her boyfriend and deciding not to change the situation. Sounds kind of like me at one time. I grew up in a Christian home, prayed, believed in Jesus, asked Him to be my savior when I was about 9 but still made the rebelious choice to live with my boyfriend. On top of that I drank alot and did drugs, stole small amounts of cash from my employer and was seductive to other men on purpose. During this time I even had an argument with a non-Christian about the reason for Jesus death and resurection. I knew the truth but chose to disobey and tune out the Holy Spirit. I believe now that had I died God would not have accepted me. I can look back and see His hand of protection on me (I could have been killed or raped in some of the places and parties I went to!) The Lord did not allow my death at that time (I believe) because of His great mercy, He knew that He could not have accepted me due to my ongoing rebellion, choice to sin and choice to make a mockery of what Jesus did for me. Oh, how I hurt Him during those years but oh, how merciful and loving He was with me! I love Him all the more now because of all of it. So, perhaps the Lord will be just as merciful on this young woman you have told us about. Perhaps that is what His plan is for her too.
In love,
Diana
Lisa,
I have been reading over your questions about the Christian girl living with her boyfriend and deciding not to change the situation. Sounds kind of like me at one time. I grew up in a Christian home, prayed, believed in Jesus, asked Him to be my savior when I was about 9 but still made the rebelious choice to live with my boyfriend. On top of that I drank alot and did drugs, stole small amounts of cash from my employer and was seductive to other men on purpose. During this time I even had an argument with a non-Christian about the reason for Jesus death and resurection. I knew the truth but chose to disobey and tune out the Holy Spirit. I believe now that had I died God would not have accepted me. I can look back and see His hand of protection on me (I could have been killed or raped in some of the places and parties I went to!) The Lord did not allow my death at that time (I believe) because of His great mercy, He knew that He could not have accepted me due to my ongoing rebellion, choice to sin and choice to make a mockery of what Jesus did for me. Oh, how I hurt Him during those years but oh, how merciful and loving He was with me! I love Him all the more now because of all of it. So, perhaps the Lord will be just as merciful on this young woman you have told us about. Perhaps that is what His plan is for her too.
In love,
Diana
Personally, I'm just not so sure about pointing the finger at people for all the things they are doing wrong.
'Judge not, lest you be judged.'
'Take the log out of your own eye before taking the splinter out of others.'
'Let he who is without sin, caste the first stone.'
We are all sinners. Christians are forgiven sinners and are going thru the sanctification process.
In the Sermon on the Mt, Jesus said it is just as bad to look at someone with anger as it is to murder someone.
The Pharisees ran around pointing the finger at everyone because they felt they were so above everyone else and so "relgious". These Pharisees are the people Jesus had the hardest time with.
I know Christian families whose kids are Christians and who are currently living with mates.
The only unforgivable sin is unbelief.
Does this give Christians the liscense to go out and sin? No. Will they be forgiven? Yes. They will be (and already are) forvigen for ALL sin...past prestn and future. Big ones, little ones, ones they meant to commit, ones they didn't mean to commit.
He took it all with Him at the cross and paid the penalty on our behalf.
Again, I highly suggest looking at that website I linked to yesterday as it covers these difficult topics.
Allan
a breath of fresh air brother thanks. and Godspeed on your trip.
so we aren't as invisible as we thought?
Grany
while I share the sentiment that we should pray for BHO I have always felt that with the election of BHO and now his inauguration despite the many valid questions surrounding his citizenship and his relationships etc. that we should be in mourning for our country and our way of life. I see this as the beginning of the end for the US and I sense deep within my inner being that this is the beginning of our judgment-to be given this leader by God who will lead our country further astray. I had the same sens during the whole election process but people, even Christians who know better, were so full of hatred toward Bush, so dismayed at what is going on in our world that they apparently will look anywhere but God for their answers. Christians should be in sack cloth and ashes.
I watched the inaugural program of Glenn Beck last night on Fox and Osteen was on-essentially saying that Hindus believe in the same God as Christians and saying he had no answers for Beck about the questions he was asking. The answer was quite simply the God of the Bible and repentance but that was too politically incorrect I guess.
Just for fun!
think of the irony...
Al Gore Ice Sculpture
Jim G
God always warns everyone about what will happen to them if they commit sin. Look at Jonah-he knew if he took God's message where it was supposed to go that people would repent and they would be saved.
Judas is the quintessential example of a tare amongst the wheat-Judas was never Christ's own despite being with Christ. He was the so called nominal Christian of his day. He had all the outward trappings of being a true believer-he ate with Christ, lived with Christ, traveled with Christ, sat under his teaching-including those teachings which were hidden from the general population etc but he was never a true believer. Witness his earlier reaction to the woman who anointed Christ's feet with costly perfume. His piety was outward and never inward and yet I'll bet if you had asked him if he was a follower of Christ he would have said yes and believed that he was despite the fact that it is fairly clear in hindsight that he wasn't. The disciples were clearly shocked at the last Seder that one of them would betray Christ-how could such a thing be possible.
In the same way-there are many who claim to be Christians but really aren't. They do all the stuff that we normally associate with being a Christian but inwardly they aren't. God sees the heart and knows that-we can only see the outside and so can't see the difference.
I would challenge you and everyone regardless of their view of eternal security and the length of time they have been a Christian, the amount of formal schooling they have had in things religious to read the book "Basic Christianity" by John R Stott. We covers some of what has been discussed-what is sin, what is salvation really. It was very thought provoking especially when he covered the 10 commandments as he delves into the heart issues that they really are about and not just what they appear to be about.
Yep, I'm in mourning today - wearing all black, head to foot.
But I agree with Grany, as well.
JIB I know that feeling of being turned over to forces that are beyond our comprehension and I agree that my heart sank when Barack Hussein Obama was elected president. We knew it was coming and we have been told what is possibly going to happen but I want to reprint the passages that I take very seriously and I know that you do too. Just so we are reminded of what God expects us, as Born Again Believers in the Son of God, to do.
II Chronicles 7:14 says:
"If my people, who are called by My Name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."
In II Chronicles we find the promise God has made to Abraham’s seed, of whom we are offspring, by Adoption. This promise applies to America, if we will have faith and PRAY! We must seek to have a "heart that knows how to love a nation (and the wayward ones) back to life." In Pastor Jack
Hayford’s teaching from "Ten Steps Toward Saving America," he said, "You cannot intercede for a person you first do not love" (see Matthew 5:43-48). Our prayers must be motivated by God’s love for blinded, broken people.
Voting is one of the ways we can express the freedom given to us by our country as well as the God-directed righteousness we have felt we are to display by our vote. This is an important duty of every citizen of this country. I Timothy 2:1-3 says, "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior." The footnote following this verse in the Spirit-Filled Life Bible (of which Pastor Hayford served as General Editor) says:
"We must pray for those who are in authority over us if we wish to reap the benefits of good government, which is a prized gift from God for the church’s welfare and advancement of the Gospel."
Romans 13:1 says, "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities, for there is not authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." The footnote under this portion of scripture says:
"The authorities that exist are appointed by God: See also Daniel 4:32; Psalm 75:6,7. Paul does not suggest that God approves a corrupt government, ungodly officials, or unjust legislation. Sometimes, however, in punishment for the sins of a people, or for other reasons known to Him, God allows evil rulers to have authority for a time, as the OT prophets frequently testify. Ideally, God grants authority to serve good ends (vss. 3, 4). How that authority is exercised will be the accounting of each to whom it has been given."
I have a precious friend by the name of Minerva and she is American African, as she says. When I asked her, before the elections and during the primaries, what her thoughts were concerning Barack Obama, in her wonderful deep voice, she simply said "he will win the election and will usher in the Antichrist". Right now my heart is racing like crazy and my insides are telling me "caution".
This is still a free country and my right to speak my mind and conscience is not voided because a man who has a great tan all over, has been elected to the top leadership of this nation. I feel a great deal of our liberties are in limbo right now and we have to make the best of the time left for us to seek the lost and be about our Father's business as Jesus told us to do. Greater works than the ones done by Jesus because He told us we would. I do get excited about that prospect but not to the point of running after trains or buses. Just listening to the Holy Spirit as he guides me daily.
I have a responsibility to God and to this great nation and to loved members of my family who have given their lives for those freedoms. I will fight for those freedoms until my last breath or until God tells me, "Enough". However, My heart is not in the man of the office, my heart is in the office of the president, and to be a servant of God, to do His great will while I live and enjoy his benefits of for my life.
Allan, it was a real blessing to read your comments and I echo the remarks of Welcome to you by all of the others. Have a safe trip to Washington DC Wednesday and to the ME afterward. Keep us in the loop and feel free to request prayers for your needs.
Love to you all,
Grany
Oh no!
Rick Warren used the J-word!
Anne,
Over the top is exactly the point I was trying to make.
I was not implying accusations to anyone @ this blog & I have mentioned that I believe my cave mates are living Christ like lives despite this OSAS view.
However-there are those w/this belief who are not living Christ like lives because they believe they are saved regardless of what their actions & sinful lifestyle show.
These gay advocates even bring up the fact that many Christians believe they are ok salvation wise in that choice & it gives them assurance not to be too concerned w/changing it. They literally quote "Once saved Always saved!"
Literal fundamentalist Bible based Christians are being labled & painted as freaks.
So far other than Diana-no one has given me an answer. You may consider it folly when this OSAS view is stretched to a point of being ridiculous but I'm seeing w/my own eyes people using it as a tool to rationalize their lifestyle.
I already know the answer & it's in our Bibles. "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment & fiery indignation, which shall devour our adversaries. Heb 10:26-27.
Hebrews 10:29-31 goes on further to explain what happens to someone who has sanctification & willfully sins. It is not speaking here of the unsaved.
Why are these scriptures & others who do not point to OSAS continually overlooked or rationalized that they couldn't possibly mean what they literally say.
I like Chuck Missler, have heard him speak & we even buds on the UFO topic but I'm not going to modify my view of this solely because I have respect for him when in the pages of my Bible the Holy Spirit is showing me otherwise.
I'm also not opposed to listening to what he has to say about the subject just because I don't think I'm going to agree w/him. There is always something to be learned one way or another. I'm also not resistant in looking @ the site Donna suggested.
There are what we would consider great men of God on both sides of this issue & both would be regarded as Spirit led.
If I feel Spirit led to tell you what I've been shown is an incorrect belief then as you can see I will do so even if it's not the popular viewpoint. Those of us who are non-OSAS here are outnumbered 10 to 1.
Anyway-I don't want to beat a dead horse here but digging into the questions of gay lifestyles would benefit both sides of the issue since the storm clouds are looming on the horizon. As of today we have Obama now and you can see he's made sure to cover all of his religious views based upon his choice of "Christian" speakers.
Look further on down the road when he allows "no hate" laws to be passed & your congregation is full of all types of "lifestyles" or the Church will be punished & eventually closed if Obama & his team feel you're discriminating against them.
Our day has been likened to the days of Lot. How far down the road of Sodom & Gomorrah will we get before His return we do not know.
If any of you want to discuss this very real possibility then I would love to hear what you have to say about it. I'll keep quiet.
Lisa, you know you can't keep quiet. You know you gotta stand for what you believe and your arguments are not that far off base. A life style that doesn't reflect Christ is a lie. Jesus said that He would tell them "I don't know you"! Workers of iniquity are a dime a dozen and then to put a label of "I am a believer" just puts more salt into the wound.
Next time someone tells you that, look them in the eye, and say "if that is so, live the life". Most people who are just wanting heaven insurance will try to convince you that they are born again or their phrase, Christian. Walk the walk and the talk will come naturally to a believer who studies to make his self approved of God. Remember too that Jesus said that the word is like seed when it is planted. Some on hardened ground and it doesn't take root and grow. So they drift away. Were they ever saved? Don't have the answer to that one but the word also tells us we can know the tree by the fruit it produces. In the old testament Jeremiah said there were some figs that were too rotten to eat and he likened them to the Jewish people. Here is what he wrote:
Jeremiah 24:1-10
After Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had taken into exile from Jerusalem Jeconiah the son of Jehoikim, king of Judah, together with the officials of Israel, the craftsmen and the smiths, and had brought them to Babylon, the Lord showed me this vision:
Behold, two baskets of figs placed before the temple of the Lord. One basket had very good figs like first-ripe figs; but the other basket had very bad figs, so rotten that they could not be eaten. And the Lord said to me, "Jeremiah, what do you see?" I said, "Figs, good figs which are very good; and bad figs which are so rotten they cannot be eaten."
Then the word of the lord came to me: "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Like these good figs, so I will regard the exiles from Judah, the ones I have sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. I will set my eyes on them for good and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and will not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. I will give them a new heart to know that I am the Lord; and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they will return to me with their whole heart.
But thus says the lord: Like the bad figs which are so rotten they cannot be eaten, so I will treat Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his officials, the remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt. I will make them an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth, for a reproach and a proverb, for a taunt and a curse among all the places which I will scatter them. And I will send upon them sword, famine and pestilence until they shall be totally destroyed from the land which I gave to them and their fathers."
Pray for their hearts to tried as by fire and turn them over to the Lord. If they will not receive your counsel then your responsibility has been fulfilled. Sometimes it is a progression of witnesses, each one speaking as the Holy Spirit leads.
Now I need to fix dinner.
Love to all,
Grany
Shalom, all! Let's start on a new tack:
The Leopard, the Woman and the Wings: Aid, or "Lying Signs and Wonders"
The Leopard, Greece, had four wings in Daniel 7. Swiftness is already conveyed by the leopard. Therefore, the wings should be symbolize something additional to the swiftness of Alexander's conquering.
I see the four wings as that which naturally elevated Greek culture: Philosophy, Art, Drama, and Athletics.
In Revelation 12, the Woman is given two wings and flies to a rest. Catholic Tradition ascribes the woman to not merely the Virgin, but the People of God. Hence, in Catholic Christendom, the Catholic Church took Philosophy and Art from the Greeks and Christianized them, enabling Her to flourish in the Middle Ages.
Do the lying signs and wonders of Antichrist need to be literal demonic prodigies? Are not the wonders of the material order sufficient, namely, science, and how it impacts Art, Drama, and Athletics?
Does not the Whore take the creation and exalt it above the creator? More precisely, does not therefore the modern whore take the Arts, Drama, and Athletics and exalt them above the creator? Do not the Arts give man a reason to live independent of God?
Therefore, what are the lyings signs and wonders except the monster guitars that flood sports stadiums, man's infatuation with athletics, to the detriment of pursuing his faith, the endless cycle of film and television, the give man seemingly endless access to drama, at the expense of seeking the true fulfillment of faith?
Are art, drama and athletics INTRINSICALLY evil? No! For the Woman can use all of them. Which is another way of saying this: the problem is not the internet or the printing press itself. By themselves, the internet and printing press are morally neutral. The problem is this: the same internet that can be used for religious dialogue can also spout endless sources of pornography, just as the same printing press that can print Bibles and Catechisms can be used to print immoral magazines.
The same exists in all of Creation: for do we condemn the creation itself, as the Gnostics, simply because man, in his sinful tendency, constantly exalts it above the Creator? No, the Creation is good of its own accord. It is HOW humanity RELATES to the Creation that matters.
So you want to build a high structure. In and of itself, that is morally neutral. But WHY are you building the structure? To glorify yourself above your creator, as if to imply that the high structure can satisfy your ultimate longing? Or are you building a magnificent Cathedral to glorify the Little Flower, who bore the grace of God's beauty within her, thereby glorifying the God that saved her?
Hence, the same Philosophy, Art, Drama and Athletics that the Greeks (and derivatively the modern Eurocentric world) used to glorify man and his selfish pride, whether in literal paganism, or the modern neo-paganism, can be elevated by the Church to assist man in serving and loving God and neighbor.
For the same Hollywood producers who use millions of dollars to create special effects that in the end are nothing but useless fodder for quick-witted sarcasm in the face of dozens of escaping-death-by-inches episodes could be used to create the beauty of Marian Apparitions or Biblical Miracles, or stories of saints who died as martyrs to bear witness to God.
And the same selfish athletes who boast of their strength and skill for its own reward could rather unite their struggles for God and offer up their pain in training and playing for God and souls, rather than seeking their own worldly glory.
Just as the same philosophy that confounded the Greeks was harnessed by the Church as a stable weapon of reason upon which to base theology and argumentation to support the truth, the Catholic dogma and doctrine.
Just as the power of modern instrumentation in synthesizers and guitars can either elevate the human mind to worship God and love Him, or to seduce the youth into hedonism of substance abuse and immoral sexuality.
For, in the hands of sinful men, the materialistic "signs and wonders" become instruments of the "lie" of the dragon, that man can attain his fulfillment merely from the things of this world, in its pleasures, wonders, and egotistical accomplishments, rather than in giving and receiving love.
Therefore, God has left the perennial choice to man: shall you use the mystical "Wings" in the manner of the Leopard or in the manner of the Woman? In the manner of the Whore, or the Chaste Bride of Christ?
Message from Uncle Bob, author of Unlocking God's Secrets...
I signed a contract to have the book made into an eBook today.
The cost was $1,900 but the publisher paid half of it, which was encouraging. Now it will be available worldwide to anyone that is into that type of thing.
Book stores are evidently not buying many books now. A lot of
stores have closed down and publishers are scaling back. Nelson laid off 125 people. My publisher told me that they were scheduled to be at a big book convention this week that he had gone to for the past fifteen weeks,
but it was cancelled this year because the economy has dried up sales so much.
Hopefully this eBook stuff will be a good answer. At least now
people in Christian persecutet countries can now get it. There are only 300,000 titles available that way now, and very few are Christian books.
It seems the Christian market has been slow to enter the field. I know, though, that you (Lori) had suggested it some time back.
Pray that God will use this new tool. Love, bob
This video from The Heritage Foundation is an eye opener. It's about an hour long but gives you an idea of what is possibly coming down the pike for America and Islam's possible designs on her?!
...trying the link again.
OH, JIM CARROLL
We had an earthquake today! At first we thought it was all of the noise and hot air attendant to the new Presidents ceremony but it was an actual earthquake. Jim came back from a short walk around noon sometime (not exactly sure what the time was) and said he thought he heard thunder but it was to consistent. Didn't have a clue what the sound was but it lasted for a little while. Didn't feel anything like earth shaking but then that isn't too surprising either. We have lots of old strip coal mines around here and sometimes you just get used to everyday happenings.
Anyway, it included Sebastian County Arkansas (Ft. Smith) and Sequoyah (us) Oklahoma. I told you almost 2 years ago! Now do you believe me?
Come on to Okieland Jim and enjoy the shaking and quaking.
Grany
Thanks Allan. In fact it was via Chuck Missler that I first came across the doctrine of eternal security. I have his Romans CD but I haven't listened to it in ages. Time for a refresher?
The coming storm-are we ready to face persecution?
Grany, the USGS site doesn't have any information on that quake yet!
You're a much better source...
Jib;
"God always warns everyone about what will happen to them if they commit sin. Look at Jonah-he knew if he took God's message where it was supposed to go that people would repent and they would be saved."
I agree, He does not overlook sin for very long and will eventually convict ALL sin, none will be overlooked! But it is God who will judge because He is the only JUST judge.
Lisa;
I think part of the answer is in this verse.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Here Jesus is speaking to the Laodiceans or luke warm church. He is saying that those that are His will be rebuked and chastened. This speaks of the Holy Spirits' convicting us of our sins and need of repentence.
Maranatha!
Shalom, all! I just got back from watching "Defiance", the true story of how a group of Jews in Belarus hid in the forests for 3 years.
If you do not go to any other movie in 2009, you need to go see this one! Wow!
<><
He all. My dear hubby noticed a really super bright star in the southern sky at least these last four nights in a row. He showed it to me tonight and I was wowed by it. It is really brighter than any I have ever seen! It is actually shaped like those star tree toppers from Christmas, all points and all from the glare! Anyway, anyone here know anything about it?? We are in the midwest. It really is something to look at!
Thanks
Diana
Grany,
Well you're right. Maybe I can't keep quite but I can at least give it a rest.
A couple good things did come about today. The 1st is Perry Stone will actually come to Orange County, CA which is short of a 2hr drive from my house-Feb 8th. I'm going to try & make it up there-should be interesting.
The 2nd was I wanted to join a small Bible home study group close to home & they are going through the Book of Revelation. I inquired a couple of weeks ago but it was full so I couldn't join in. This evening I got a call someone dropped out & they are starting Rev 1 tonight & now I get to attend. (They have no idea what they are in for do they? I'll try to keep quiet.)
Has anyone else felt this way or has heard this type of response?
Hubby was mentioning that the more he reads the Bible the more he realizes that there is not much positive about Christianity other then skipping hellfire.
That all Christians can expect is suffering, persecution, humiliation, torture, death,.....The fact all of Jesus disciples aside from one all suffered horrendous deaths. That it's a majority of a bunch of "poor" people who will end up in heaven. Does anything positive ever happen to a Christian in this life?
So I guess you can take it that living a Christian life is not looking all that attractive to him
the more he's reading his Bible.
(I gave him some answers but to place something above your will & yourself is stretching his comprehension as he's wrestling w/God.)
Campsmore, I know, I know! I have inquired of the Memphis station via Email and hopefully they will respond tomorrow.
I would have discredited it except it was reported by the news center in both River Valley (us) and Tulsa TV stations. Jim said though and not to dispute the news media, but he heard the rumbling sound coming from the West which would be towards OKC and that is an entirely different fault line. Like I said before, we do things different in Okieland.
I am going to bug the USGS until I get an answer one way or another.
Lisa, great for you on your opening and also, on Perry Stone's coming to your neck of the woods. Tell hubby that the best thing about living the Christian life is in the dying.
Diana, BRIGHT NIGHT SKY FOR DIANA put in your area and see what they have to say about it. That site is a lot easier for me to get around in without knowing all of the chitter chatter that star gazers like to indulge in. Hope this helps.
Grany
Diana,
I'm sure it's Venus that you're seeing. It's been the brightest object in the sky for at least month or so now. It is incredibly bright. Usually the first "star" that appears after sunset.
Lisa, Shalom! You wrote:
So I guess you can take it that living a Christian life is not looking all that attractive to him the more he's reading his Bible.
I've found that my life has always gone better and easier when living a Christian life.
<><
Lisa
that exact topic is well addressed in the book I recommended by John R Stott. I would encourage you to buy it-it's very short and not really all that expensive (relatively speaking) as are the subjects of the deity of Christ and why that matters. what sin really is, what is the significance of the cross and what salvation really is as well as what a true Christian life really is.
it's hard to know how to answer that question. yes on the face of it he is accurate but being a Christian is more than escaping hell although one would think that would be enough. Christ gives us real true peace and joy and a sense of completeness/rightness/harmony for lack of better words. Peace and joy that are deeper than your circumstances and not dependent on your circumstances (at least that's the way it should be)
Jib,
OK thanks-I'll buy that book.
Jim C.
I agree w/you & have never had the same thoughts as my husband on the subject.(Leave it to him.) But I guess from an earthly standpoint one could view it as such if your only thinking about the here & now & yourself.
The devil's probably working ovetime on whispering in his ear.
Fortunately he does believe in the firey alternative. About a month ago he told me he had a dream that Satan was standing over him in bed lauging at him w/an evil voice. I asked him what he looked like. He told me he was bald. That scared him & he thought it may have been sent by God to tell him that hell is real.
I couldn't make myself watch Obama today-just hearing his voice in the background was enough for me.
I should have watched it I guess just to size up what's up. All I remember is hearing something like "everyone has the right to be equal!"
Then in the grocery store the bag boy was walking around w/glee telling everyone how he stayed in his PJ's all morning to watch it.
Then another mom I know who's a Christain & doesn't care for Obama only mentioned that they were
worried about taxes being raised.
When I looked @ them & voiced my
concerns of moral values & persecution coming to Christians I think they were suprised by my answer.
The encouraging news is that in the Revelation Bible study group most of them mentioned that they were interested in this small group study because they feel what's coming up ahead of us & want to be prepared.
They are wanting full oil lamps.
But I have to tell you as I go about my day to day errands & see these people so happy because of the new life Obama promises I feel like I've been sent into the middle of the Twilight Zone.
Maybe because I really do think they are delusional.
Today January 20th, 2009 we have now entered into the "Twilight Zone.!"
CLICK ME
Shall do, Nate!
Lisa, keeping you all in my prayers and yes, we have entered a new and unknown era of life. The ride might get bumpy but not any more than we can stand. We watched most of the whole ceremony yesterday and now I really have a tummy ache. I got such a joy out of watching the little one of Obama's family and the thumbs up she gave her daddy. What a little character she is.
Nate you are so right about the spiritual struggles going on right now with Lisa's hubby. It is hard to be kind hearted right now Lisa, but it is so very important that you listen to the Holy Spirit's leading in relating to your hubby. I had to learn to get a little fly swatter instead of the shotgun with mine.
I still have to fight it and it gets a little tiresome ever so often. However, about the time I am in the process of whacking him, the Holy Spirit shows up and redirects my course. Praise God for that!
Still checking on the report of the earthquake that was supposed to have happened yesterday here. I am beginning to think the Sheriff's office mislead someone. Cannot find anything on it and that is not the usual happening.
Grany
Iranian Parliament Mulls Formation of Islamic Army
India, Israel closing weapons deals worth $600 million
UN Head 'Appalled' at Gaza Ruins, Hamas Celebrates 'Victory'
ANALYSIS / Jordan's king is torn between U.S.-Egypt and Syria-Hamas axes
Day One: Obama calls Palestinian Authority president
Defense official: Fresh Hamas strikes will be met with even greater force
China says hopes ties with Obama's U.S. deepen
Brussels promotes 'social innovation' to tackle crisis
In the discussion w/hubby I explained to him what I felt the Lord was working in his/our life & that He wants to be #1.
Hubby said "Well remember when I went that day & gave my life to Christ?"
I said yes, but did you make Him your 1st priority? He agreed he has not (he thinks the kids & his family should be) then relays examples of Christians going "over the top" in his mind w/praying for hours/fasting and how it seems as fanatical as the religion of Islam where they pray 5x per day to their God.
It appears he's ok w/Christianity as long as he is only expected to be a "good" person & go to Church.
Anything beyond that makes him uncomfortable & he is now finding out that a true Christian is expected to die to themselves & take up the Cross.
So far so good on my patience & Nate you’re correct about the blinders & the spiritual warfare going on in this house.
I'm watching the devil trying to even get to me through my husband
at times. But then I see God's love & power as He comes to my rescue & reveals that He is present & in full control.(And thanks for all your prayers as they are definitely being responded to!)
So the harder the Devil tries to attack me the greater my faith in God & His promises grow. While my husband remains blind my vision grows sharper.
In the end we'll see how this wrestling match turns out.
Lisa;
My view is that if someone is expecting a "reward" in this life for being a Christian they may be setting themselves up for delusion. This is where all our "me" versions of Christianity come from. Jesus promised to never leave us nor forsake us but we often are not spared going through tribulation and trials for our own good (and His workings). He is with us in the trials and this causes us to draw nearer to Him.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
Maranatha!
Has anyone seen this latest post from Joseph Farrah;
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=86469
Just wonder what you all may think of it? I thought it was a bit extreme. I am not sure what he is trying to convey? Maybe I am missing the point.
Maranatha!
Lisa, God wins! Boy, does your struggle sound familiar. Almost like you are looking through my patio windows.
GT good comparison to the "Me" generation
Now to everyone, I just came from the new web site of www.whitehouse.gov and before we all get to comfortable and start believing the lie of yesterday, go take a gander at the list of things they have on their agenda under "Civil". We got to get everyone prayed up, healed, delivered, united and set free before all of this stuff starts growing like mold. Now I know that those guys who were saying that God told them Obama was God's pick for president are of the delusional group. Get a gander at the stuff these two characters are cooking up and trying to stuff down our throats. We are considered the ones who are dividing this country, did you know that? WE are the ones who are demonized and targeted for the stake while they toast us for their next meal.
I know what my cry is and it will have a whole lot of King David in it, big time. Kinda, sorta like "let our nations' enemies be scattered", etc.
We are going to be on our knees 24/7/365 yearly from here on out. Oh, well, the more we pray the more heaven gets closer.
Shalom,
Grany
Lisa;
Also joining in prayer for your hubby. I believe that is our greatest weapon. Especially when the Lord is begining to open their eyes and draw them to Him. As I have said before, I would not be here if prayers had not gone up for me!
Maranatha!
That Farrar article is strong. I'm not sure what to think except, I have to pray that he makes God led decisions.
I do not like him as a person, I do not like what he and his cohorts have in plan for our country, but I am commanded to pray for him.
Perhaps all I can muster is for his salvation.
Grany,
OK I guess I'll have to face more of the music & look at the White House "to do" list. I have a tendency to want to know no more as I've already had a belly full.
I picked up a voicemail from yesterday-my unsaved friend in TN was emotional and crying on the phone because she was watching her "Obama" Messiah spout out his promises for America. Even if 1/2 of what Obama is saying comes true then she's happy & is so elated that America's are now joyful in this new hope. (Do I REALLY have to call her back? This in it's self is Tribulation for me.)
Then today I'm driving around and "Isaiah 17" keeps coming to mind. I know it's something I've read quite frequently but shame on me-have not memorized it. I figured it may be something for Hubby and maybe it was the Lamb & Lion Isaiah 65 Prophecy.
Well low and behold I get home & it's the Oracle against Damascus.
What in the world? This one I can't figure out at all. I wonder if have a screw loose upstairs?
I'll wait on the Lord. Maybe Isaiah 17 ties into something somehow.
Lisa, I have a link you might really agree with. Open to everyone really.
What Happens now and why did this happen
GT,
I saw the point which is: "I want Obama to fail because his agenda is 100 percent at odds with God's. "
He may see the same delusion I see even in Christians he knows. Maybe they feel God choose Obama-(which we know he did) therefore we should support him even if what he stands for is against God's commandments. (Maybe there are doubts- since it was God that chose him-then Abortion & Gay Marriage may not really matter that much to God after all-let's go w/the popular view & stand behind him.)
Instead of realizing the purpose God chose him for may be for the judgment of America.
He doesn't want to see gay marriage, unlimited abortion, and the things of that nature which Obama has no conscience about-so he wants to pray against that happening. To me he’s just expressing his zeal for God’s commandments from a different perspective.
He personally does not want a Socialistic/Marxist govt. setup but
I don't know if you can actually pin that one against something God doesn't want. I know I don't want it but?
We want to pray for Obama to change his heart on these moral matters-and I'm sure as Christians we don't want him to make into law things that will persecute us.
Now if God is using Obama for an American end times purpose-then He will do just that. No amount of praying will change it. It really just may be for doom and gloom. The downfall of America as a superpower & the judgment & separation of the Church.
If it's God's will that Obama does indeed "see the light" & "change his ways" then we have reason to rejoice.
I was thinking today of the passage everyone brings up about if you repent, morn, weep God will hear and heal the land. Well that's true but it doesn't guarantee that He will do it in our lifetime. It may be scheduled for future generations or in the event the Trib is right around the corner-in the Millennial reign of Christ.
Now I'm starting to sound as bad as Farrar! Can't you feel my optimism?
Lisa, you have laid your sword down and trying to make sense of all this mess. Get that sword back up Girl, and start speaking the Word as God told you to.
Just kidding you! But what you say is more or less what a lot of people are believing they have to do. Roll with punches? No way! Pray for his salvation and that the real Holy Spirit pursue, convict and put the hounds of heaven on Obama's tail.
You all don't want to know what I am praying but you can bet it isn't that roses will flow forth from Obama's mouth to overwhelm and deceive the masses. Keep the anger towards him out and watch your hearts that you do not fall into fear towards what the world is doing or trying to do. We have work to do before we leave this planet and the time is now.
Love you all,
Grany
Grany,
As usual, EXCELLENT words of advise and encouragement. I love you sister!!!
this guy at wnd said it all
"I could not agree more with Joseph Farah. I am praying for Mr. Obama in two areas only. One, for his salvation, as I do not believe he is saved. I heard him in an interview he did back in 2004, and this man is a universalist. Two, that God would restrain the evil that this man may cause. That's it, nothing more."
pretty well put I think
btw Lisa
the book by Stott-talks about the whole take up your cross thing also
Jim G. I love you too brother and some time real soon, we will all gather around the Heavenly throne and praise God for all that he has done and brought us through. I am looking forward to it, greatly!
Oh, Glory! Lord, come quickly!
Grany
Jib-that double track is just about what I also pray for re:Obama.
No matter how pessimistic I may be about him I'll continue in prayer.
Meanwhile I'll warn all the mice as they follow the Pied Piper over the cliff.
#168!!!!
I feel so special...
To all;
The quotes below are from the Farah post:
"Many a coward has been bolstered in his conviction against challenging tyranny by not reading too deeply into the Scriptures. Yet, nowhere does the Bible ever suggest evil rulers are to be obeyed. When the rule of men conflicts with the commands of God, the Bible leaves no doubt about where we should stand."
"That's why I do not hesitate today in calling on godly Americans to pray that Barack Hussein Obama fail in his efforts to change our country from one anchored on self-governance and constitutional republicanism to one based on the raw and unlimited power of the central state."
"It would be folly to pray for his success in such an evil campaign.
I want Obama to fail because his agenda is 100 percent at odds with God's. Pretending it is not simply makes a mockery of God's straightforward Commandments."
I agree with opposing the rule of men vs the commands of God but where in the Bible are we promised self governance and constitutional republicanism? I am not sure how Farah knows that Obama's agenda is 100% opposed to God's? Believe me, I am not advocating free abortion (murder)ect. Perhaps as the other posts say, these are judgements on America due to the choices this country has made in this election!
As I stated when the election was over that we have chosen money over Godly principals!
Maranatha!
Lisa and Grany, Shalom! Reading your postings made me think of that scenario that had me so upset last month, with the coming schism. I want to share two things with you from Mark Mallett's blog. The first is his entry that he put out within an hour of Obama's inauguration yesterday: What If?. It has this quote:
We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of the American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel and the anti-Gospel. This confrontation lies within the plans of divine providence. It is a trial which the whole Church . . . must take up. — Cardinal Karol Wotyla who became Pope John Paul II two years later; reprinted November 9, 1978, issue of The Wall Street Journal
But you may be more interested in a prophesy that was done in the presence of Pope Paul VI back in 1975. You can read the whole story at The Prophecy at Rome, but here are the highlights:
On Pentecost Monday, 1975, Ralph Martin, one of the founders of the Charismatic Movement, was in the presence of Pope Paul IV. He felt compelled to utter a word, just as powerful today as it was then.
Because I love you, I want to show you what I am doing in the world today. I want to prepare you for what is to come. Days of darkness are coming on the world, days of tribulation… Buildings that are now standing will not be standing. Supports that are there for my people now will not be there. I want you to be prepared, my people, to know only me and to cleave to me and to have me in a way deeper than ever before. I will lead you into the desert… I will strip you of everything that you are depending on now, so you depend just on me. A time of darkness is coming on the world, but a time of glory is coming for my Church, a time of glory is coming for my people. I will pour out on you all the gifts of my Spirit. I will prepare you for spiritual combat; I will prepare you for a time of evangelism that the world has never seen…. And when you have nothing but me, you will have everything: land, fields, homes, and brothers and sisters and love and joy and peace more than ever before. Be ready, my people, I want to prepare you...
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Shalom, all. If this is widespread, expect higher beef prices next year.
Are Floods to Blame for Cow Troubles?
A Johnson County farmer has made a shocking discovery that may make him the latest victim of the Floods of ‘08.
The man says many of his cows aren't producing calves, and he thinks contaminated floodwater is to blame.
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I think much of it stems from the marxist bent which at it's core is anti God but having said that there is a passage that says if you don't work you don't eat and that laborers are worthy of their wages or something like that-one is from the OT and the other from the NT. Which suggests to me that forcibly taking money from me to give it to someone who won't work is not scriptural in the least.
part of the other issue is that with the advent of the industrial revolution led in part to the dissolution of the extended family ties in which families cared for their own-cousins no matter how distantly related were helped. when is the last time we loaned anything to a sibling let alone to our 3rd cousin twice removed? Also the church has fallen down to an extent on this. at issue is when helping people came at the price of good doctrine. The liberal protestants started not believing in the fundementals of the faith and started believing alleviating earthly suffering was more important than saving peoples eternal souls. So the fundementalists had a backlash against the social gospel and went pretty much the other direction-only saving souls was important and because Christ said that we would always have the poor with us was the excuse given to not try and help people. At one time standing accused of trying to make a difference in the earthly lives of folks was essentially to be called a heretic to the true faith. So the whole Rick Warren thing of social ills being the more important than say abortion (a moral and social issue with good theology as it's base )is hardly a new thing.
so the government stepped in to help in place of faily and church which has lead to where we are today. being self sufficient is no longer a badge of honor it is in fact a thing to be frowned on.
GT,
I agree w/you on that one. God does not specify what specific "type" of earthly govt. structure we should live under so to rebel against that is not right.
It's exactly what the world
will rebel against with this "revolution" we hear could happen.
Mr. Farar is apparently a little worked up right now. GT-maybe you should write him on that point.
If he got a bunch of Christians into that mindset then I could see this as an excuse for the Govt. to clamp down on "fundamental" Christians. Hasn't Obama already sent his men in black to people's homes who spoke out against him during the campaign?
He's not messing around. If you are against his defination of "equal rights" (except for babies) in any fashion he's going to make your life miserable.
To him you’re a racist & he’s got a real bone to pick w/you.
If you threaten his structure of ruling-you're also going to be in for a big surprise.
He is convicted in what he believes is right & wrong & will do everything in his power to accomplish this agenda. So we need to be wise & serpents & innocent as doves & not allow emotion to get the best of our brains.
We all need to pray for wisdom right now.
Nate,
I agree w/you 100%. I think once the marriage definition between a man and a woman is thrown out & we see all the gay, transgender, & transsexuals skipping around w/glee on our TV sets nightly-that just may be enough to wake at least some of the Christians up.
Now if Obama just read what I wrote he would think I'm the cause of societies woes & send me to some camp to be reprogrammed so I could reassimilate into society.
New post is up...finally.
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