Col 2:7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009
Col 2:6-8
Col 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
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152 comments:
All I can say is that I am so thankful for so many of your wonderful posts.
Child of the King, you are such a blessing for us...as are so many others here.
It is so heartwarming to hear from so many men who have such a love and dedication to God and His Son and His word.
We would do well to pray as taught by our very own Jen:
Expressing thanks for the many wonderful things He has done for us;
Praying for our world leaders;
Praying for peace in Jerusalem;
Praying for our family and loved ones;
Praying for ourselves.
(This may not be exactly as Jen explained...)
<><
Everyone,
Thank you for your prayers for my dear hubby and all of your comments on the situation. He once did bear fruit for the Lord and had a faith that was real. Perhaps it is buried in there somewhere among all of his "issues". I have to say that your last post (on the last thread) Jim G. ( I believe that is who it was!) I agree with. It is because of those many verses that you quoted that I pray fervently for my dear hubby. Since he does not read his bible he does not really know many of those verses.
Lisa, this is one of your quotes, I believe,
"I really fear for those who believe you can treat God like trash & think He's ok with it."
Yes, I feel like that too. That is why I pray for my husband too. If I did not think that way I suppose I would have no reason to pray for him!
I really loved reading all of your great posts, thoughts and scripture quotes. I think these debates are healthy and get us thinking and reading scripture to search out the truth!
In Love,
Diana
Lisa,
That was a good article, "Follow the Leader". My husband only reads hunting magazines! Really, that is all. Your husband is an attorney? He probably enjoys reading, attorneys have to do alot of that. Mine is a carpenter. Ok, so he also reads house plans and such. I bought the movie version of Epicenter and watched it with him because he would not read the book and I was desperate for him to know these things! He also enjoyed the history channels recent series, the one that we all watched here. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions!
Diana
This is certainly not some theological discourse, but it is what I feel about the things that have been posted. I have found it all so discouraging.
I am greatly troubled by all that I have been reading. If I can lose my salvation I am really in trouble.
How is it that we come to Christ to receive this incredible gift of salvation only to lose it if we fall to
How could anyone have any hope? Salvation would be so dependent on my ability to not sin. I sense that some here act as if they do not struggle with sin. Do you? Do you ever lose that battle no matter how much you want to walk with the Lord?
Maybe it is because I have fallen into sin so many times in my walk with Jesus and struggle with my will vs His will constantly that I almost feel angry at this conversation.
How would I ever make it if my salvation depended on my ability to hang in there? It is easy to look at someone struggling in a very prideful way if you have been successful at "abiding".
Whoever thinks they do not sin, is deceiving themselves. I do not know how I can ever rest in God in light of this.
Unfortunately, unlike Nate, I have always felt like I had to "love God or else." How is that loving God? How then, can anyone be saved?
Grace
That is supposed to say, "if we fall to the weakness of our flesh".
Grace
Grace,
This might suprise you but I absolutely agree with so much of what you said! There is just one VERY IMPORTANT misunderstanding I think you have about what I and a few others have said.
You wrote:
How could anyone have any hope? Salvation would be so dependent on my ability to not sin.
I agree. We are all lost if salvation is dependent upon on our ability to not sin.
I believe the Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. I do not think that anyone has said that salvation is dependent upon our ability to not sin.
As long as we sense the Holy Spirit's conviction when we sin and we have a repentant heart, I think we are in Christ (saved).
Those who continually resist the Holy Spirit and harden their heart are in danger. Only God can judge the heart. But he warns us against resisting and grieving His Holy Spirit. People who are outside of the Body of Christ (whether they were never in or were once their and left is probably immaterial) are their because they don't have an active, living faith in Christ.
You wrote:
I sense that some here act as if they do not struggle with sin. Do you? Do you ever lose that battle no matter how much you want to walk with the Lord?
Let me be clear and state this unequivacally and specifically. I sin. I have many but the one I struggle most with is lust. I'm in trouble the day I stop confessing my sin to Christ. I'm in trouble if I no longer sense God convicting when I sin. I'm in trouble when I stop persevering or give up. We must persevere in the faith and not give up. If it was impossible to give up, we wouldn't be admonished to persevere.
I do think it is more dangerous when one has been saved and therefor has been in the Body of Christ (and eaten his body in Communion) and then stops being repentant when God convicts them of sin. I think resisting the Holy Spirit and rebelling while saved is so dangerous because of the antibodies that we build up in our flesh against the Body of Christ. (That's for you Jib;-)
I hope this helps you understand better what I have been trying to articulate.
May God bless you all and may He let anything I may have said that is contrary to His Word find no place in anyone's heart or mind.
Grace,
Man, do I struggle with sin! I really struggle with a biting, sarcastic tone. But, I hear the Holy Spirit convicting me even before the words come out of my mouth. I am quick to confess to the Lord and apologize to the party I offended (honestly, only my family comes under that banner!) It is when I have not bent my will to the Lord's will and repented and apologized that I have made it worse for myself. And, honestly, I really don't want to offend my Lord. Yes, I struggle with sin. But if I were to just keep on sinning and not repent of any of it, my heart would grow harder and colder towards the things of the Lord. The new testament letters really deal with this subject well. We really need to study those closely.
In Love,
Diana
Lisa,
I wasn’t expecting anyone to answer my questions. My purpose was first the hope that the questions alone would show how little sense a non-OSAS position makes. Secondly, it was in hopes that the non-OSAS people would study the scriptures and ask God for understanding and revelation. In the people arguing non-OSAS, I see far too much reliance on the opinions of others. Commentary, Bible teachers, pastors, etc. aren’t supposed to be the determiners of truth. God is.
The other day you asked me what the enemy could hope to accomplish with the lie that we can lose our salvation. I gave you an example from my own experience. The above paragraph contains another example.
Scripture interprets itself and doesn’t contradict itself. If you think some scripture contradicts other scripture, then it means your understanding of one of the sets of scripture is incorrect.
I don’t have the time or inclination to discuss all the examples you believe teach conditional eternal security, but I’m familiar with the one about the wise and foolish virgins. If you believe the foolish virgins had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then you have to believe that God can remove the Spirit from one in whom he indwells. Search the scriptures and look for confirmation of that belief. I’m confident that you won’t find it.
But if you look at the Old Testament, you may be mistakenly believe that you’ve found your confirmation in the accounts of King Saul and Sampson. But you have to remember this: there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. My memory of the account of King Saul is a little hazy, but the life of Sampson shows how the Holy Spirit empowered him. Prior to Pentecost, the Holy Spirit empowered, but didn’t indwell. King Saul and Sampson aren’t the only examples of this, but I can’t recall any other specific examples right now.
Don’t take my word or anyone else’s. Look at the scriptures and ask that the Holy Spirit teach you.
Angie
Mac,
King David's prayer that God not remove His Spirit is NOT evidence that the Holy Spirit will be removed from an indewlt believer. Look near the bottom of my post to Lisa to understand why that's an incorrect interpretation.
I have no desire to address all your points. But the above assertion of yours stood out as an easy example of incorrect interpretation.
Angie
Grace, also, you said;
Maybe it is because I have fallen into sin so many times in my walk with Jesus and struggle with my will vs His will constantly that I almost feel angry at this conversation.
I don't think any of us would disagree with our own struggle with sin and our will vs His will. Friend, many people here have backed up their arguments with scripture, so we must turn to scripture for our answers. Since you already recognize your own struggle with sin and have a desire to do what is right in the Lord's eyes you should not have to worry or think that you may lose your salvation. I think that Jim G. has explained it well. Please, don't be discouraged. Study His word yourself and ask the Lord to teach you from it.
In Christ's love,
Diana
Those who believe in eternal security stand accused of not considering the verses that talk about abiding and I would counter that some of those who believe one can lose their salvation can be rightfully accused of discounting the many verses that say otherwise as well and not giving them any consideration.
Regarding the use of the letters to the churches in Revelation to prove that individual Christians can lose their salvation is faulty exegesis. Those verse do not apply to individuals but to church bodies and or to broad eras of dominant church types. To apply them to individuals is a misapplication of scripture. Yes I have heard sermons apply them to individuals but that doesn't mean it is a correct application.
I think part of our problem as believers is that we have a faulty understanding of what the word Lord means. It means we are his slaves, bought with His blood. I agree that we are to constantly want to abide in him. Not a single person on this blog who has defended eternal security has ever said otherwise nor has anyone one this board ever said that the doctrine of eternal security gives us a license to go out and sin all we want either. To state otherwise is imo a mischaracterization of what has been said.
Paul struggled with his inability to do what was right and his continued problems with sin in the last part of Romans 7 and then comes Romans 8-the whole chapter which to me confirms that even though we struggle with sin we are still in Christ.
Angie
well put
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call to sacrifice
Ok - forgive me...
Angie - IMO - you are out of line.
I think you need to sit back & reflect on how you are speaking to people. LET ME BE CLEAR - I am not criticizing you for your beliefs.
This has been an awesome conversation up until the point that you stated that those who express views other than yours are the work of the devil!
Child's heart grieves for those poor, slow, simpletons that don't see it the way she does.
Do you both not see how counter-productive, hurtful & insulting that is???
Much can be learned & we can all grow as Christians when we can have dialogue with opposing viewpoints, spoken with intelligence, respect & love - it is truly what makes our fellowship here so rewarding.
When you start (essentially)calling people stupid, pitiful, pathetic & lured by the devil - what purpose does that serve?
If that is what is in your heart towards fellow Christians, I suggest you reflect & pray about that & think before opening your mouth.
Also, make sure you are properly addressing someone prior to blasting them.
Mac's sound asleep & has made no comment recently about King David.
I have really appreciated almost all of this OSAS discussion & thank every person who has made a comment, regardless of their views. It has gotten me thinking about a variety of issues & I truly think my relationship with the Lord has been kicked up a notch because of it.
Mac & I said last night that we feared our heads might explode from all the different directions this conversation has led us to ponder.
These last few disrespectful comments have really tainted this for me.
Jib,
You wrote:
Not a single person on this blog who has defended eternal security has ever said...that the doctrine of eternal security gives us a license to go out and sin all we want either.
I absolutely agree with you on that point. I hope I haven't implied that anyone in the OSAS camp teach or believe that.
Grace, you are God's child through Jesus Christ and nothing can change that. Man goes by what man knows and the scriptures tell us in Proverbs 3: 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil." but He also tells us that GOD WILL finish what HE started in YOU.
“I am confident of this: that the One who has begun his good work in you will go on developing it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6, JB Phillips). It’s easy to become discouraged especially when our self-imposed expectations have not been met in the allotted time we have set. But this scripture gives us an assured hope that God will indeed finish the work he has begun. He has made you unique and in His wisdom He knows what needs to be done and when.
Your life is no surprise to God, He saw you in eternity and knows the great work He has for you. Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are God’s [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].” Don’t give up on the restoration God is doing in your life, by faith know He is working. The work He has begun in you is like a seed planted and it will take time to grow. It may at times feel like nothing is happening, but deep within just like a seed planted in the soil much is taking place unseen.
Trust that God will finish what He started in you, so that you may accomplish the great work He has planned and purposed for your life. Remember Grace that Hebrew 11: 1 says that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Faith is not a solid object that we can reach out and touch. It is not even a earthly concept. It is more a state of mind. It is our decision to trust God and His Word. It is our point of view. Faith is developed and refined. It doesn't happen immediately in most cases but it happens.
It is like the fermentation of yeast when you make bread. It rises to gigantic proportions supernaturally. We don't question it has happened but most of us can't explain why or how.
If you weren't concerned about the known sins and why they keep coming into your life, then I would worry greatly and call all of the pray chains in the world for you. Sin is a constant battle and one that is sly, crooked, deceitful and full of pride. When we say we don't sin, we lie! Said it before and I say it again. Here is why: 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
10 If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts]."
Pretty simple in reading but living it is a minute by minute battle and it will continue until we breath our last breath or ascend up at the command "Come up here".
Grace, don't think for one minute that you are losing the battle because the battle is the Lord's and the Victory belongs to us all.
Love you sis,
Grany
IDF Gaza strike kills Hamas military head, interior minister,
Alesia,
You're entitled to your opinion.
Angie
I just wanted to say, that if I have hurt anyone in the latest discussion, I want to apologize. Right here, and right now.
It was never my intent to hurt anyone's belief.
On a brighter note, I don't believe any of us fall into the category of neglect.
Heb. 2:3a,
"How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation..."
May the love and peace of Jesus Christ be with us all.
Love,
Marge
Amen to your beautiful and accurate 9:29 post, Grany!
Well said!
Angie,
In the times of the Old Testament a select few people-God's prophets had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for ministry activities.
Your quote:
"Prior to Pentecost, the Holy Spirit empowered, but didn’t indwell."
Is that biblical? That's certainly a new one to me- does the Bible state a difference or is that a human assumption? If scripture differentiates between the two I'm eager to take a look at it-sounds interesting to me (:
And why wouldn't you expect us to answer your questions? We gave you the answers you were not expecting us to be able to back up God's Word in the scripture. We backed it up so what's the problem?
Could it be that in fact we just may have a "revelation" that you are not willing to take a look at?
There is has been nothing in our view which is contradictory for those Christians who abide in Christ.
We have given you "God's Word" on the matter.
We have also pointed out several things in which the OSAS view is indeed contradictory (actively abiding, persevering, enduring & so on) If your not "hearing" what the Spirit is saying through God's word then what can one say?
The enemy can certainly accomplish quite a bit through an OSAS view. Christians who are not to be concerned with their spiritual health as it can never falter are only deceiving themselves. It also keeps those Christians who have fallen away w/very little encouragement or help from their fellow brethren because nobody really cares one way or another. Everyone "thinks" they are right w/God no matter what-when they are not.
Fear is the handiwork of Satan & his best tool to subdue God's work in the Body of Christ.
I suppose if I were doing something in rebellion like "living w/a guy" I would also not want to look at the possibility of falling away. I rather ignore it than face the music that I was not spiritually right w/God. That's human nature. I rather ignore the Holy Spirit's conviction than risk loosing "the guy." (for an example)
I just don't understand the concept of even the mere "idea" of falling away would bring on such fear that you would be afraid to loose faith in the Lord. Or is it faith in yourself?
I have no "fear" of loosing my salvation "in Christ" but I'm also going to continually examine my life & heart. I have great joy in the Lord & don't walk around shaking in my shoes. I do however think God is serious & do fear Him out of respect. What He says in His word will be done. I sin but I'm also persistent to move forward & have great faith that God through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit will indeed give me the power to overcome sin. Some of my habitual sin "patterns" I've already overcome through Him. That gives me great confidence to press on. There are times when that sin will unexpectedly "pop up" again- so I repent & keep going. I have no fear that if I sin I'm going to loose my salvation because I have an ongoing relationship w/the Lord & am fully dependant upon Him to be washed clean through the blood of the Lamb.
God's Word tells us to be dead to sin & no longer slaves to sin. To sin no more. Romans 6
We all HAVE sinned & fall short of the glory of God. It doesn't mean we rest in God's grace & keep on sinning. We are to be Christians which means "Christ-like." A light in a world of darkness. Through Christ only I have faith in His power that He will finish the work in me He started & I will sin no more.
Whether it's in this life or the next-I know it will be accomplished because God promised so. Romans 6:15 Paul tells us “ What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!” He says sin leads to death but obedience to God’s word leads to righteousness.
I cannot stop sinning through my own will & power. That is what I tried to do before I was "born again." That is why there are people sitting in Church next to us who are not saved. They are not "born again" because their hearts are not plowed & furrowed w/good soil & they are not receptive to the seed of Holy Spirit in which He will grow & cause that person's life to change in dramatic ways & become a new creation. We need to walk in the Spirit to overcome & not in the flesh.
That's the reason for the testing & trials in life. God uses these things to either break the person's pride down enough they will cry out to God w/fertile heart soil & have the ability to be "born again" or just till up the heart of the saved Christian so they can continue to mature spiritually in their walk w/God.
If we look at all the millions of people born from the beginning of time - so very few really want to follow the one true God. That's sobering truth to ponder.
As Jim G. also pointed out from Scripture- God has abounding grace toward our stubborn hearts but sometimes He just says enough is enough. When He kills millions during the Tribulation I think that's a good sign that He's had enough of it.
Let's just be thankful that we answered God's call & continue to follow Him & move ahead in spiritual maturity while looking forward to the hidden mysteries He will reveal to those who continually seek Him.
It appears you don’t really want to discuss the eternal security issue anymore so I’ll refrain from anymore remarks. Perhaps some other time but I have enjoyed the discussion & got quite a bit out of it.
There is no need to feel heartache for those of us who don’t believe in unconditional eternal security. For myself- I’m overflowing w/joy in this dark world which only comes from the grace of the Lord & my faith in His promises.
Jim G:
"As long as we sense the Holy Spirit's conviction when we sin and we have a repentant heart, I think we are in Christ (saved)."
This is one of the clear differences between someone who is saved and someone who isn't. Conviction of the Holy Spirit.
But this is what I can't get a grasp on. What if a solid, faithful true Christian walks with God daily, and then faces a traumatic loss of a loved one. He takes it really hard and becomes angry with God for a couple of days for what happened. He doesn't repent of this sin and even though he will tomorrow, he unfortunately gets run over by a clown car and subsequently eating by a lion at the circus.
Now the question is not why is this man attending the circus only days after a traumatic loss or what was in that bottle that the driver clown had in the paper bag.
The question is.....is this man saved? He hadn't repented of his sin at the time of his death. His walk with God had been interupted. He certainly would have returned to God, but he hadn't yet. So what happens to him?
And if you don't like my example, substitute any sin you want in there....God doesn't care what it is. They're all the same to Him.
My view is, without eternal security, the man would go to hell. God would say, thanks for the faithful service all these years. I know it was only one slip up there at the end. And by the way, I can see into the future and you would have repented the next day BUT.......rules are rules and it's just tough luck for you that they hadn't fed that lion that day and the clown missed his AA meeting. Funny how life works. See ya.
Please feel free to respond to the serious parts of this post.
I mean....feel free for anyone to respond....not just Jim G.
Grany,
Wonderful post! There is such wisdom which has been revealed on "faith" from your particular Christian background.
Jib,
I've never considered the OSAS types to think sin is OK. We all know that is not biblical.
I think many of the OSAS Christians are right w/God despite of the fact they believe that there is no consequences in their relationship w/God for their behavior since they are "eternally secure" no matter what they do & can never fall away.
They are saved because they love the Lord and obey His commandments.
The eternal security of the Pre-destination fashion is a different matter because God picks who is going to be saved and who is not going to be saved. Some he picks for a relationship & heaven and others he picks to send to hell.
**And you know I don't believe that either. (:
Good and funny example, Dave!
We can discuss and debate this to death just as we can on other topics.
I think as we walk the walk we come to learn new truths.
It's exciting to learn more and I don't think we ought to be so closed minded as to think we have all the answers.
My personal opinion is that if you study a letter in the Bible as a WHOLE..and not take it apart verse by verse...that it will be clear that we are saved and have eternal security by what He has already accomplished at the cross.
Maybe we ought to change the subject.
There are some hot topics that cause problems...this apparently being one.
Lisa, in my opinion, you are still a babe in Christ...and I do not in any way mean that to be a negative thing.
I do, however, suggest that you learn from others.
The Bible teaches (at least I seem to recall this, but can't tell you where exactly at the moment) that woman should learn from more mature women.
Grany and A Child of the King are both perfect examples for this! We are so blessed to have them here amongst us!
I encourage you (and others) to keep yourself open to their (and others) awesome words of wisdom and teaching.
Angie,
You said:
But you have to remember this: there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. My memory of the account of King Saul is a little hazy, but the life of Sampson shows how the Holy Spirit empowered him. Prior to Pentecost, the Holy Spirit empowered, but didn’t indwell.
Examples from Scripture of the Spirit of God INDWELLING people prior to Pentecost…
Joseph
The plan seemed good to Pharaoh and to all his officials. So Pharaoh asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?”
Genesis 41:37-38
Moses
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?
Isaiah 63:11
Bezalel
Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God…
Exodus 31:1-3
Seventy Elders
The LORD said to Moses: "Bring me seventy of Israel's elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the Tent of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit that is on you and put the Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so that you will not have to carry it alone.
Numbers 11:16-17
And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that [was] upon him, and gave [it] unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, [that], when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Numbers 11:25
David
"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue.”
2 Samuel 23:2
Prophets of God
Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands.
Nehemiah 9:30
Job
…as long as I have life within me, the breath of God in my nostrils…
Job 27:3
Ezekiel
And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.
Ezekiel 2:2
Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house.
Ezekiel 3:24
And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, [every one of] them.
Ezekiel 11:5
Daniel
But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name [was] Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom [is] the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, [saying],
Daniel 4:8
Daniel 4:9
O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
Daniel 4:18
This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise [men] of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou [art] able; for the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee.
Elizabeth
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:41
Prior to Pentecost, Jesus said:
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!
Luke 11:13
But, is there really a difference between the Holy Spirit being “upon” and the Holy Spirit being “in” us? IMO, the Bible makes no such distinction. Consider the following two passages, one speaking of the Holy Spirit in the life of Jesus. The other, speaking of the Holy Spirit as He was promised to believers.
Jesus
The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
Isaiah 61:1 (also quoted by Jesus in Luke 4:18)
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Matthew 12:18
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mark 1:10
as promised to believers (both Jews and Gentiles)
And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joel 2:28-29 (Also quoted in Acts)
If we look at all the references in the OT where the Spirit of God was upon people, the power that resulted was just as powerful as in those situation where the word "in" is used in the NT.
I think upon and in are the same. Especially in light of the fact that "upon" is used to describe how the Spirit was on Jesus.
Donna,
I would consider Andrew Strom, Jack Hayford, and Dr. James Dobson mature brothers in the Lord. There are numerous examples of mature, very well-respected, Christians on BOTH sides of this issue.
I realize you meant no disrespect to Lisa but I consider her to be mature in the Lord. I also consider Kathy (Overcomer) to be mature in the Lord. Lisa and Kathy are of course on different sides on this issue. Anyway, as I said, there are very mature, well respected pastors and teachers on both sides of this.
I was curious where Andrew Strom stood on this so I e-mailed him. He responded that he believes one can fall away.
I also e-mailed Times Square Church in NYC where David Wilkerson is a pastor. I'd love to hear what Pastor Wilkerson says.
Grany,
Don't you know him?
Daveschatology wrote:
This is one of the clear differences between someone who is saved and someone who isn't. Conviction of the Holy Spirit.
I agree. I would think (the way you describe the situation) that this person would go to heaven. Abandoning the faith (i.e. a real relationship with Christ) is not easily done. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done and that there aren't warnings in Scripture to live a life of perseverance. I think if you were to ask the man in your hypothetical if he believes Jesus is Lord, he would say "yes" and mean it. People in Christ can say yes and mean it. People who have abandoned the faith can't.
Signed,
(You'll never guess who, Dave.)
Great comment above!
Actually I don't know who it is.
I agree that Mr. Clown Car Victim would say that he believes in Jesus.
Maybe the difference here is between losing your salvation through sin or outright renouncing your faith....saying to Jesus, I reject you now. I don't want you or your heaven.
I've never thought you could lose your salvation by sinning. I've questioned the second point though.
Jim G.,
I just wanted to thank you for being so gracious!
I especially wanted to thank you for your comment to Donna - you saved me (from myself) from another outburst.
Dave - Thank you for the comedy relief! You stopped the blood shooting from my eyes!
Now I'm just sad instead of raging & sad.
"Maybe the difference here is between losing your salvation through sin or outright renouncing your faith....saying to Jesus, I reject you now. I don't want you or your heaven.
I've never thought you could lose your salvation by sinning. I've questioned the second point though."
Same question I have & I agree you can't lose your salvation from sinning alone.
I have a question. Has anyone reading or commenting changed their position due to something someone here has said on this issue? I understand that some are mulling the different arguments and might just think, hmmm...interesting point. What I'm wondering is whether anyone has said to themselves, "By golly, that's right! I see now how I was wrong."
(Not meaning to be a stinker, just seriously wondering) :-}
Anyone watching the live coverage of the plane that went down in the Hudson and the passengers who are getting out and being loaded on ferries?
Not sure why you or anyone else would have an outburst over my suggestion.
As I said, I did not mean it to be negative at all.
Dave,
Good question. The same thing actually came to my mind. And your example is a glaring flaw in the non-OSAS belief...which could better be characterized as "revolving-door" salvation.
My situation was this. The day I decided I wanted to follow the Christian path, I told God to tell me what to do. In other words, I put my life in His hands. At the time, I didn't understand the significance of the crucifixion or the resurrection or the whole concept of the Fall and sin and Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice.
This happened on the beach. What would have happened if I'd been killed in an accident on the way home? Probably a lot of Christians would say that because I hadn't yet accepted Christ, I would have gone to hell.
I say I had eternal life from the moment I placed my trust in God. Salvation is by grace through faith. In fact, becoming a member of God's family has always been by grace through faith, from Adam until the new heaven and earth. The character of God as revealed in His Word is not that He would have held me responsible for not knowing what I hadn't yet been taught. I think I would have gotten a welcoming hug from Jesus who would have said, "Let Me introduce Myself to you."
Quite frankly, Dave, some of the arguments in support for non-OSAS (AKA revolving-door salvation) have gotten so far away from sound Christian doctrine that I will no longer comment on them.
Angie
Dave,
I have to confess. I signed in and posted a response to your clown scenario anonymously. It was me. I thought it would be obvious after I followed it with a compliment to myself;-)
Jim G.
I should have picked up on that. HA!
Anne,
I haven't changed my position on the primary question but I think I've learned to understand and appreciate the other side more fully. It's also made me dig into
God's Word and that's always good!
Angie,
If you think the non-OSAS position is a revolving-door salvation position, you have misunderstood it.
Likewise, I think if people think the OSAS position is a license to sin, they've misunderstood that position as well.
I agree 100% with your statement:
I say I had eternal life from the moment I placed my trust in God. Salvation is by grace through faith. In fact, becoming a member of God's family has always been by grace through faith, from Adam until the new heaven and earth. The character of God as revealed in His Word is not that He would have held me responsible for not knowing what I hadn't yet been taught. I think I would have gotten a welcoming hug from Jesus who would have said, "Let Me introduce Myself to you."
When we are "in Christ" we are hooked up to the source of Living Water. That Living Water is life. It is eternal life. We are hooked up to it by faith. We have both permission and ability to hook up to hit because of the grace of God. The Living Water will never run out.
I think what we have been debating is whether a Christian can "disconnect" from this connection to (or relationship with) Christ, our Living Water, our Bread of Life, the Vine that nourishes us branches.
With this understanding, to say that we can disconnect through lack of persevering faith is not to deny that we had eternal life at one point.
Some OSAS folks have argued that the faith that is necessary for the connection involves no human choice at all. It is simply an issue of some are predestined for heaven and others for hell. I find this inconsistent with God's character as revealed in Christ.
As for the vine and branches analogy, God does prune and throw dead (disconnected) branches into the fire.
Mac,
Are you saying that once we lose our salvation we can't get it back? I'm confident enough that this is false to say that you won't find support in scripture for that belief.
Actually, there is more than one point of view. Lisa is arguing that we lose our salvation if we don't repent. That's a "revolving-door" salvation because it implies that when we sin, we lose our salvation until we repent.
If you're asking whether or not we can reject our salvation, I believe the answer is no. Once we place ourselves in God's hands, He will keep us there...just as He promises us in scripture. We may wander away and wander into sin, but we can't reject our lose our salvation.
In John, Jesus says that all the Father gives to Him cannot be snatched out of His hand. If you think we can lose or reject our salvation, then you have a real problem with this promise of Jesus'.
This is what you said, and I'm interpreting it to mean rejecting our salvation. But that could be an incorrect interpretation.
"I think what we have been debating is whether a Christian can "disconnect" from this connection to (or relationship with) Christ, our Living Water, our Bread of Life, the Vine that nourishes us branches."
Angie
I like what Chuck Missler says; to paraphrase “Before ever undertaking any study into God’s word, we should pray for His guidance.” Unfortunately, I often forget to.
I’d like to point out (the obvious) that this discussion about Salvation could continue until the Lord returns without resolving anything. This debate still rages among theologians with doctorates and will continue to do so until then.
I’d like everyone (including ME) to pray about their comments before posting them as I can see problems arising.
We should be wary of misconstruing other people’s comments and we need to be respectful and considerate when replying to each other. Remember to hold each other up and not to tear each other down.
"Mac, Are you saying that once we lose our salvation we can't get it back? I'm confident enough that this is false to say that you won't find support in scripture for that belief."
Angie, you have me confused with someone else.
Also, please read my last comment.
Donna,
Please don't put your trust in what I say or do because I fully understand the fallible nature of man and putting people on a pedestal is a bad habit that sets both us and the object of our admiration up for disappointment and failure. So obviously there’s a fine line that needs to be walked here.
I appreciate your comments but it is dangerous to think of anyone other than Jesus Christ as a example of living out this life in victory to the glory of God. If you knew how many times a day I fail, well it would negate your esteem. We all sin and come short of the glory of God and I feel like I knocked Paul out of his position when he said He (Paul) was the chief sinner. You see, I count even the smallest sins according to man's scale, as major stumbling blocks and I am still a work in progress. Overtime is not drawing any additional wages either.
JIM G. You asked if I was the one who knows David Wilkerson. Yes, I do and believe me if he was on here you would have a staunch advocate of lost communion with God but He knows it is a matter of choice and not by accident. He also believes in getting back up and getting on with our Christian life. The chasm between you and God gets wider as you falter in your walk. If you keep repeating the same old sin, sooner or later you become desensitized to the sin and that is when it gets dangerous.
I ask all of you this simple question: Do you love God more than life itself and desire to live connected to him and His Word all the days of your life? I mean connected like Super Glued to Him for all of your life and eternity? Pursue that goal with all of your heart, soul and mind to live out this life in complete fellowship with Him and you will make it.
For the sin areas of your life, ask Him to deliver you from the weakness towards them and give you the victory. I have weaknesses too and he has always been faithful to answer my prayers because He knows I sincerely desire His deliverance. If he can deliver you from the grasp of hell then he can and will deliver you from the lust of the flesh. Been there done that!
To God is the glory for all the righteousness that is given to us in His son, Jesus Christ.
I want to leave a bible passage from 1 Corinthians 3 where Paul is telling them: 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me (Paul), as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Whose Temple are you? He dwells not in temples made by the hands of man but dwells within us by the Holy Spirit.
Grany
Angie:
"Lisa is arguing that we lose our salvation if we don't repent. That's a "revolving-door" salvation because it implies that when we sin, we lose our salvation until we repent."
It's a cute little analogy but "revolving door" certainly does not picture what I believe
I had found out that there are some people who actually do in fact believe just that. They think every time they sin if they don't repent & end up dying they would go to hell. They miss the grace portion of scripture & for them there is no real rest in the person of Christ or eternal security. (In or out of Him)
The greater truth of sin is that it's a heart issue & being rebellious & unrepentant hardens one's heart. Left unchecked it leads to the point of loosing your 1st love in Christ & abandoning Him therefore leaving the source of eternal life.
That's not exactly what I would consider a "revolving door." It would be more of a gradual "falling away."
When these people stand in judgment before Christ I imagine Him saying something to this effect: "I never left you. You left me. You became drawn away by the cares of the world didn't you?"
You returned to the very thing I commanded & warned you to stay away from & your heart became hardened & you never let me back in. I kept knocking but you refused to answer. Therefore depart from me."
Remember-we are most likely in the age of the "Laodicean" Church age.
Most of the Church is Lukewarm & that does not bode well w/our Creator.
We are also in the age of the "great falling away" from truth. I wonder how far down that road we have already traveled.
Grany, I can't say that I put you or Child on a "pedestal".
However, I do think "newer" Christians should listen a bit more to what "older, seasoned" Christians have to teach or say...particularly when the older Christians have extensive life experiences and take on a berean approach to scriptures, as you and Child (and others) do.
I believe the above is scriptural, as well.
What about the sins we don't repent for and may not even be aware of? Are we not forgiven those?
Yes, by all means yes!
He forgave all of our sins...past, present and future.
And He forgave not just our sins...but our sinful nature...."once and for all"!
Donna, I think the imperative is what Scripture and the Holy Spirit teach not the vintage of the Christian.
Of course, mac!!!
I had an interesting experience today @ my daughter's dance class all because of this discussion.
There were to people there in the waiting room. One is a sincere Christian who also attends my same Church. Another is a "nanny" college student.
I brought up that I was currently in a discussion about eternal security.
The sincere Christian who I'm friends w/quoted "whosoever believes in him" and really had- I would say somewhat of an OSAS view.
We are friends & I brought up that "believing" is actually an active verb meaning "following" & there is more to it...
I gave the example of "living w/someone" is constant rebellion in sin which the college student admitted she was in the process of doing but that she does go to church every Sunday. It seemed as if she never gave it much thought & God would not judge that.
My friend smiled & looked over at the college student and said “Maybe there is a purpose that we are discussing this right now. Maybe God's saying it's time for you to get right with him."
The college student very sweet & very open & stated that she really wanted to know more about it.
My friend also started quoting scripture which speaks of falling away, persevering, and such. Now she's all perked up & has gotten curious about the subject.
I have to admit that looking at that sweet girl in the eyes & telling her how God views living with someone made my heart ache for her. I could imagine feeling the pain of the conviction even though I was the one speaking the truth in love & not the one on the receiving end.
I might be mistaken about the whole 'older women teaching younger women' thing I brought up earlier.
I was quite sure it was somewhere in the Bible (I though in Peter or Timothy) but I do not seem to be able to find it there...yet anyway!
So I might be mistaken about that...
Donna,
Perhaps you don't realize that spiritual maturity is not typically accomplished in counting the actual "years" a person is calling themselves a Christian.
Our pastor once gave a sermon that he personally has seen a new believer gain greater spiritual maturity in one-two years of Christian life than someone else who has warmed the pew seat for 50years.
It's a matter of how open one's heart is to yielding to the Holy Spirit & how much time & effort they put into seeking the face of God.
Certainly one who seeks with all their heart mind & strength consistently throughout their life will naturally have more spiritual maturity though their years of living relationship & seeking God than someone just brought back to faith for a few years.
Others w/a half-hearted attitude could be a 75 year old Christian & be as spiritually mature as my seven year old daughter.
Certainly I do respect Grany & Child for their wisdom (Marge are you an ole' one too?) & am very blessed to be able to gain their insights.
Older Women and Younger Women
1You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.
3Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
Titus 2:1-5
Donna,
The Scripture you're searching for is located at Titus 2: 3, 4 and 5. I know, sometimes I also lose a Bible address :)
Lisa,
You're right about maturity versus age. (I'm 62 years young :)
I also give thanks to God for our Grany, and a Child of the King. May God bless them both! Amen!
Love to all, and to all a very good night :)
P.S. Did anyone see President Bush's last speech to the Nation? Okay, you can laugh if they want to, but I walked up to my T.V. set, and placed my hand on his forehead, and asked the Lord to bless and keep him. And I thanked God for his terms, as our President.
Mac and Lisa,
Quite honestly, I have no clue what either of you believe. I've tried to discern your beliefs from your own words, but have been unsuccessful.
The Spirit is advising me to say that and nothing more for now.
Angie
Jim G.,
Thanks! Great minds, huh? LOL!
To clarify...I meant spiritually more mature Christians...not aged mature Christians.
Thanks for the verses....the verses I had been referring to (I thought)were about older women teaching younger about spiritually related things...
I may have been remembering that in error...
if I come across it I will let you know!
This is a powerful video!
An open Letter to the World (from a Jew in Israel)
Makes me sad for what has been done by some who have called themselves Christians throughout history.
MAC, thanks for saying it like I wanted to but didn't.
"Donna, I think the imperative is what Scripture and the Holy Spirit teach not the vintage of the Christian.
January 15, 2009 5:25 PM"
Yes, Donna, it is what scripture says and the Holy Spirit teaches each and every time. If a pastor or anyone else misrepresents the Word of God, call them on it and surround it with love. But if they persist, then unload the hay wagon and take them to task over it.
The main thing is that older women who have been saved and matured need to have a humble heart towards God's word and others. Every time I say that I have a flash moment of Jesus being challenged by the religious leaders when they questioned him about the woman caught in adultery. He exposed them for what they were, focused on the woman, forgave her sins and told her to go and sin no more. That is quick and to the point but very powerful in the overall picture.
And Donna, I am very relieved to know that I am not on a pedestal. I don't like heights!
Love you all,
Grany
Angie, I'm not sure what comments you're adressing that you think I made. Can you please point me to the specific post?
I've "leaned" on the side of OSAS and have tried to make that clear.
I do, however, see strengths in both sides of the argument.
Jim C, how are you feeling? Have we scared you off? Hyde's a little worried about you.
They're talking about this over at the Gene Edward Veith blog:
Gay Bishop Is Asked to Say Prayer at Inaugural Event
Bishop Robinson said he had been reading inaugural prayers through history and was “horrified” at how “specifically and aggressively Christian they were.”
“I am very clear,” he said, “that this will not be a Christian prayer, and I won’t be quoting Scripture or anything like that. The texts that I hold as sacred are not sacred texts for all Americans, and I want all people to feel that this is their prayer.”
Bishop Robinson said he might address the prayer to “the God of our many understandings,” language that he said he learned from the 12-step program he attended for his alcohol addiction.
Jim G, thanks for your response. I really was curious.
Anne...to answer your earlier question ...this discussion has not changed my mind about eternal security.
I do find it interesting, and sad in a way, that there are so many different interpretations on so many different topics.
Angie,
Well I guess that's a hint to ask God for more effective communication skills. A failed Evangelical-oy vey!
Alesia,
On David Servant's latest email he posted a couple funny video's but he also included Lukewarm & Loving it! Thought you would get a kick out of that.
The need for the hour is Wisdom This was a really great message last Sunday about wisdom. What is the difference between knowledge & having wisdom & why we should ask for it.
He also mentioned something I reflect upon which is that God purposely chose us to be born in the "End Times." Of all the time in History we could have been placed on this earth He chose us for this time frame & our purpose in it.
Heads up on Obama & the North American Union.
He may actually be "the one" instrumental in putting this thing together. He already has Mexico & Canada lined up in his sights.
President-elect to restore ties with neighbours
Shalom, all! I just haven't been hanging around here much lately. I've spent most of the day trying to clean off my daughter's hard drive. There's a REAL nasty virus/worm going around called "Virtumonde" that infects computers through a hole in Java. If you use anything that uses Java and haven't updated your version of Java past 1.6, you're vulnerable. She got infected by looking at a video on YouTube. Watch your back.
Anne, Shalom! I haven't started a serious job search yet. I'm still waiting to file for unemployment. I meant to go to the office on Wed. morning, but they hadn't cleared off my road by noon so I put it off until today. This morning the wind chill was -41 degrees. I saw that and said I'm not stepping out of my apartment. The weather forecast is for the air temp to approach -30 tonight (not counting wind chill) -- I don't think I'll be getting out tomorrow either.
Mac, Shalom! No, you didn't scare me off. I've been reading the arguments going back and forth and giggling -- just a little, I'm afraid. If you accepted the Septuagint translation of the Tanach (Old Testament), you'd find several sections of scripture that would tie this question up in a nice bow and set it on your plate. In fact, one of my favorite speakers on radio is Scott Hahn. He's a former Firm Calvinist Anti-Catholic Presbyterian minister who's now a major Catholic apologist, and I recall hearing him speak upon this very same issue.
So I just decided to wait until things calmed down a little, and we could turn to topics a little less controversial, such as Nephillim, and whether the toilet paper should be dispensed over the TOP of the roll (coming down in front), or over the back of the roll.
Diana, praying for you and your husband.
<><
Oh, and re: the "Older Women teaching Younger Women" thing: All I could think of is a line from a sitcom I saw years ago, where just before a wedding, the mother of the bride told the mother of the groom, "Now is the time for the alpha females to teach the young she-wolf the ways of the pack."
<><
Jim C.
Oh you want to discuss the Nephillim? Oh I can't wait!
Everyone run for cover!!
Actually Jim C. I was thinking of you because there is a discussion going on over at Mazulli's blog about the Shroud of Turin.There is a part 1-3 I thought you might like that.
Also-Everyone-Take a look at these strange lights! Beam me up: Scientists left baffled as mysterious columns of coloured light appear in the night skiesKind of cool, huh?
This is a website I used to visit often when reading up on the shroud. The subject has always fascinated me though I am skeptical.
shroud of Turin
Jim C, thanks for the update. And I hear ya, about the cold! I think we've been below 0 for three days, this morning it's -21, wind chills about -40 (I think I'm in the warm spot in the state) school buses stalling with their biodeisel fuel gelling. We are aspiring to get above zero today.
Donna, thanks for the comment.
Russia and Ukraine have "last chance" for gas deal
Russia seeks Syrian, Iranian help on Gaza truce
Iran near nuke decision
"Iranian Unit" Destroyed, Hamas was Suprised
Hamas: We will not accept Israel cease-fire demands
Gaza fighting slows as Israel counters Hamas offer
Ahmadinejad & Meshal make surprise appearance at Gaza summit in Qatar
Bush Trying to Achieve Gaza Ceasefire before Leaving Office
US to ink nuclear pact deal with United Arab Emirates
UN accuses Israel of breaking international law
Turkey: Bar Israel from UN
UN Disarmament board chooses Iranian as vice chair
'International force if truce bid fails'
Blair to continue on Faith and Globalization
Personally I have the toilet paper roll from the top over the back!
If anyone does has it rolling over the front, I really question their faith!
:)
Interesting about Scott Hahn. I know a ton of former Catholics who became born again Christians, but can't say I know of any born again Christians who became Catholics.
Lori thanks for the links.
Donna, I must confess the error of my ways.. paper feeds from the front.
I'm so set in my ways, I don't see any hope for my rehabilitation either.
Don't even get me started on loading the dishwasher... i.e. everything faces the middle, when it comes to flatware, absolutely NO NESTING!!!!
Self explanatory
It rolls from the front...and you don't nest your silverware???
Now I REALLY question your faith!
:)
GREAT article, jib, thanks for sharing it.
I wonder what exactly we would and even should all agree on?
Lori,
You posted an article several days ago about the hate crime bill, I can't seem to locate it now.
Did anyone else read it?
Pretty scary stuff.
Marge - did you read "Sinner" yet by Dekker?
It's about passing a hate crime bill & all that would entail to Christians. (amongst other things, such as what you do with the gifts given you) I almost wish I hadn't read that book now.
Talking of books... Scott (Boroeagle), you MUST read Dean Koontz's newest book "Your heart belongs to me" It is magnificent - the best book he's ever written!
Remember we said we thought, based on his last few books, that he seems to be searching for Christ? He really makes a statement in this one. I think he sought & found but is still searching for what that exactly means.
Very, very good.
Oh & Marge, yes, I did watch Bush, with leaky eyes. I stood up & applauded him. How sweet that you touched his forehead! My heart hurts for that man & yes, I do hold him up in prayer.
Anyone can say what they want about him but he is a humble man that I do believe followed his conscience & he certainly doesn't lack integrity.
well Donna since I am being directed by the Spirit to not say what I really really want to say to some that will have to do
Was it this one?
HATE BILL INTRODUCED INTO CONGRESS
I did not get to see Bush's speech...but was very touched by the speech he made a few days or so ago....he was very humble, admitted mistakes, etc., and sounded very "human", leveling with everyone about things, etc.
Lori,
Yes - thank you, thank you!
I don't say it enough - thank you for taking the time to find & post articles, that we may not stumble upon otherwise.
Donna,
Jim C. has mentioned quite a few protestant type Christians who became Catholics. You would probably be surprised by the numbers.
Jib,
I have to acknowledge that you have conquered "bridling of the tongue" in Christ throughout this last round of discussions.
It's not easy & I recall your thoughts on the topic. This just goes to show that in Christ we can conquer any temptation & former patterns of behavior.
Just because we have not reasoned another into our Biblical view point does not mean God has not worked with each one of us in one way or another. Success should not only be based from “winning” someone over to our side but what He works through us in the process of the discussion.
Don’t you often feel overwhelmed when your in a crowded place and see all the hundreds of people & realize that God knows what each one is doing @ all times & has the hairs on their head numbered? Then think about the entire planet-He’s just too awesome to grasp.
Oh, Jimmy C. me lad, you made me cackle with this one: jim.carroll said...
Oh, and re: the "Older Women teaching Younger Women" thing: All I could think of is a line from a sitcom I saw years ago, where just before a wedding, the mother of the bride told the mother of the groom, "Now is the time for the alpha females to teach the young she-wolf the ways of the pack." hehehehehehe
Now I have the perfect bridal instructions for the next vic---- uh, I mean young woman.
I have an old fur coat from my father-in-law that you could use for getting out and about. It came from the 1920 and was the rage of the age back then. Raccoon and still in great shape. Even have the hat that was popular with the college kids then.
I really do need to clean out the bathroom but now I am afraid to check out the TP roll. Back to the front or front to the back and no nesting. Right! I will get on it right away! Yeah, sure I will.
JIB, I am proud of you too! Thanks for the link also.
Lori, to tell you the truth, when I think of all the data going up to Daddy about me, it literally scares the Hell right out of me! Not cussing just really mean, Hell can't get in because the Holy Spirit is quick to really chastise me big time.
Do you suppose all of those people that we see walking on the streets in New York, Hollywood or Las Vegas, or for that matter, anywhere else crowds gather, ever think about God? Let alone that he knows everything they are doing, thinking and are going to be doing and thinking? That just seems unreal but Jesus said it was so and that ends it for me.
Oh, before I forget it! Didn't I read just the other day where the U.S. Marines have been warned that there is a very strong and likely possiblity that the government in Mexico is going to collapse due to the drug cartels and gangs fighting for power? Seems Lori linked to it and I can't find it now. That might make it a little dicey for the new president to formalize a North American Union in the near future. I for one don't have any great desire to see that come into reality in any manner.
Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country!
Grany
Lisa,
Sorry, I completely forgot to comment on your "Lukewarm & loving it" video. I'm glad to see it posted elsewhere.
I have to say, I absolutely adore Pastor Chan. The love that man outwardly expresses for the Lord is unparalleled to anything I've witnessed before.
I listen to his sermons on my Ipod when I go for walks & if anyone were to videotape me I'd win America's funniest home video. I answer him, bust up laughing, start walking in slow motion, etc.
His sermons are very thought provoking & tend to make me feel like a wretched heathen, sometimes.
But I see that as a good thing, it helps me to strive to be better :-)
That was not the link I was trying to post!!!!
Lori, I was thinking of you when I should have typed in Lisa's name in my last comment. Please forgive me. I am getting old but I am NOT THAT OLD YET! I just had to shout that so I could hear it too. Just convincing myself of things is getting harder every day.
Love you all and hope you are staying warm.
Grany
US Military warns the sudden collapse of Mexico is possible
he he he he
Ooops! It looks like I'm laughing at Mexico's demise... not so. I read Grany's comments and then the laughter began. If it was meant to be evil laughter it would've been more like, muwahhhhahhahhahah, but I don't do that as well as Davey or Mr. Hyde.
Israel, United States sign anti-Gaza deal
You should hear My Hyde do that live... me boots be a shakin' & have to run to the bathroom, lest I have an accident!
LOL
Alesia,
No, I haven't read, Sinner, by Ted Dekker yet. But, funny enough, I am about two people away, from reading it. (Library) And, I'm more than a couple of people away from reading the new Dean Koontz book. In fact, the two books you mentioned are the last two (from the Library) I haven't read yet, that I have reserved. And I'm only one book away from catching up on my reading. (my books) There's also a couple of books I plan to buy, too. One being, Magnificient Mind, by Dr. Daniel Amen. I've already read one of his books, and given two away. (I bought one for a gift, as I thought it was such a good book! Change Your Mind-Change Your Life)
Jim C.,
Come on and share with us, okay? You know you want too :)
And thanks again, for reminding me about the Library :)
(it was Jim C. who, over a year ago now, convinced me to start going back to the Library!)
In fact, it's Dr. Amen who says, that the healthiest people go to the gym, then stop by the Library!
(amoung other things, like eating right, etc.)
In Dr. Amen's books, (lectures on PBS, too) he mentions the thought life a lot. And that just because a negitive thought comes to mind, doesn't mean you have to accept it. (Bible based) He goes on to say, that not all thoughts are even close to being the truth. Anyhow, since I am often surrounded by people with many negitive thoughts, I've come to find that if I introduce them to a good source of secular material, it's easier to move on to Bible truths :) Especially when the secular material is based on the Bible.
Anyhow, I can't wait for the Nephillim discussion :) For the record I believe they were angels, and not sons of Seth, that married the daughters of Eve. And that the Greeks distorted the stories, etc.
I also believe in "old earth," and I believe Dr. Hugh Ross (Reasons To Believe) is a wonderful author.
And as far as the T.T. roll? I have to admit, I converted from having it roll from the back, to the front. I was told by my husband and aunt this was the way to go.
Have a blessed day, everyone! and don't forget to smile!
I was told by my husband and aunt this was the way to go.
"way to go"
no pun intended huh?
:)
Marge, that isn't the way I was told "to go" at all. It was bend at the knees, aim for the seat, grab the paper and hang on for dear life. Of course I was only a toddler then. Funny how the ancient past is easier to remember than the present location of my car keys.
LOL @;o}
Grany
It's Time for a Funeral
TGIF Today God Is First Volume 2, by Os Hillman
01-16-2009
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20).
"There's nothing wrong with you that a good funeral won't solve," I said to the woman. "I'll even send you flowers!" She smiled in response. I was speaking figuratively to the woman who was stressing out about an issue in her life.
Her problem was the same problem most of us have - too much of "us" and not enough of Jesus and the cross. Many of the daily problems in life can be solved by coming to an end of ourselves so Jesus can take over. I believe this is what the psalmist meant when he said: "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints" (Ps 116:15).
The apostle Paul recognized the need for a funeral too when he penned these words: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life" (Rom 6:1-4).
Whenever we stress over a matter, get angry over a daily circumstance, or seek to have our own way - it is a sign there is still life in the grave. We need to fill it with dirt and smother the life of our flesh so that Christ may live freely, unhindered by the "old" man. Send yourself some flowers today. Have a good funeral.
Collapse of Mexico, huh?
Maybe this would be the catalyst to forming the North American Union.
Some sort of "international" situation would occur to "keep the peace" in our up and coming New World Order.
I can foresee one currency being used for Canada, US, & Mexico but I can't envision how the culture of Mexico & the US could even exist together unless the majority of the corruption could some how be extinguished. Canada-well that's not so hard to see working w/the US.
Events have been occuring so fast now that maybe it wont be so difficult to see this NWO come to fruition in a couple years from now.
Jim C.
How do you think this could tie in?
Obama Supports North American Union Agenda
goal is 2010
Mr Carroll & co, the discussion about the toilet roll was quite riveting. This leads me to the question – does one scrunch or fold?
definitely scrunch.
The fold technique creates post traumatic stress symptoms for me.
Don't ask, it's too upsetting.
wOW! Do you really need that much information? lol
Scrunch while you are young! Fold while you can!
JIB just jump in any ole time with this one.
But I am awaiting the wiseacre response from Mr. C.
Grany
I want you guys and gals know that I was on my way for a short nap before I made my last comment and I am laughing so hard now at the depth of this conversation that hubby is checking me out to see what caused my outburst.
Nappy time calls.
Grany
Mr. Hyde,
I live in a divided household, on this issue.
Grany,
I'm with you. I'm awaiting for Mr. C's comments on this one.
I'm sorry,
Anyone who would actually take the time to neatly fold the TP - is way to anal for me.
Lisa,
Amen to THAT one. LOL! But he is really lovable :)
Lisa, Are you admitting you have an issue with the tissue?
I have been following the discussion on OSAS (and not wanting to add to the confusion) but...
These comments by Jim G are the most disturbing I have read so far.
"If we can lose our salvation, does that mean the Holy Spirit is taken away from us?
Yes."
"Do we get the Holy Spirit back?
Yes."
I just don't know what to make of them!! Perhaps this is the real issue behind the OSAS discussion??
Don't want to get back into OSAS, just wondering about this point though. If this is true than what are the following verses referring to?
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Maranatha!
Lori,
Not only the tissue but my husband sectionalizes the food on his plate. (Although I think he's a TP scruncher but I'm going to have to spy on him & find out. Just never really had the desire to go there before. Now that I think of it I remember him showing Melanie how to use Toilet Paper & he did fold it! She used to unravel a ¼ of the roll each trip & there would be a TP trail. So he was showing her the proper amount to use which is way less then a female requires. So now she takes off one square (which is not nearly enough) and has given our 4yr old a TP complex.
Have you ever encountered a “sectionalizer”?
For example:
Instead of just eating his food like a normal person. If there is more than one item on the plate he takes his fork and scoots it over into separate areas.
So normally the plate is divided into three distinct sections.
And to do this once I could handle. But he continues to sectionalize his food all throughout the meal.
The sound of the fork on the glass plate--eeeeeeeeek! I've learned to avert my gaze in the process.
"Anyone who would actually take the time to neatly fold the TP - is way to anal for me."
Harumph! Some of us are fastidious in certain departments.
Back to the closet. Two posts in one day gives me a headache.
Lisa, keep your husband away from blended food then.
Ouch...three posts in one day!
Get Out of the Boat
"Anyone who would actually take the time to neatly fold the TP - is way to anal for me."
Um, Lisa? Can you please come over here & clean the coffee off my keyboard?
VERY funny
Shalom, all! If any of you are having problems with temptation, you really need to check out the "Little Dee" strip for this week (January 12, 2009). I really love the final frame for Jan. 15: "Being good feels totally lame sometimes, doesn't it?"
As for the issue of personal bodily cleanliness, I'm a folder. Again, it was a way for my mom to save on TP -- folding used less tissue, at least where I was concerned. (Pull... Pull... Pull... "Mommy, I think that tube appears magically in the middle of the toilet paper!" Pull... Pull... Pull...)
And Lisa, I'll have to do some thinking re: the collapse of Mexico.
<><
I was looking for an article that I posted here once about the Holy Spirit. It broke down what you could do to the Holy Spirit in 3-4 stages. One was quench, the other grieve, and then I forgot the rest.
I don't remember if the last one was the Holy Spirit actual left of if you were just so hardened that He couldn't do His job in the Christian's life anymore & the new creation returns to the former self of living solely in the flesh
This article was great in just hitting the point across that the Holy Spirit is a person living within you Answers in Genesis-Spirit
Which Spirit is Bearing Witness That You are a Child of God? This article had an interesting concept I had never considered that another actual spirit may be fooling some into thinking their are a saved even when their life shows a worldy attitude.
The Holy Spirit can also be 'insulted'. (This does not look like a very wise choise to make.)
"Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29).
38,39) "Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Lisa, I read the article from Answers in Genesis. The conversion of Dave in that article reminded me of Paul's conversion in that Dave was not seeking God but we see that God sought Dave. The voice said, "Jesus loves you!" and Dave responds with "Forgive me!" Rom. 10:17 - "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." 1 Jn. 4:19 - "We love, because He first loved us." 1 Jn.4:19. God drew Dave to Himself, spoke to him, loved him, convicted Him, granted Him repentance, and I believe gifted him with faith. Twenty years later he is still walking with Christ.
An amazing story, thanks for posting it!
The Antinomians are Coming! Have you ever wondered why Antinomians are on the rise? You say, "I've never even heard the word, much less wondered why they were on the rise."
It might surprise you to know that Godly men like A.W. Tozer, Charles G. Finney, D.L. Moody, Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, Menno Simons, George Whitefield and others were all quite familiar with not only what it is, but with it's unusual effects on the Church of God.
(BTW-if you believe in unconditional eternal security then you would be considered an
"Antinomian".)
In fairly recent years I am just amazed at the #'s of people who seem to be searching.
I guess it has probably been this way for ages...but for "some reason" it just seems so prevalent in "this" generation.
I hope and pray that we can assist people in any way that we can to go to God, the Father, Jesus the Son and to the Holy Spirit to seek to gain acceptance and direction.
Tonight I met with a bunch of local families...all seeking and hoping.
Please, Oh God, use us in any way shape or form to point others to You! Amen!
GT it is so wonderful to see you posting!
Good to see you, GT and Kathy.
Lisa, I'm currently reading MacArthur's "Hard To Believe" and "The Gospel According To Jesus". Antinomianism, Lordship Salvation and Free Grace are discussed here and there. I wish I were a lot smarter. Sometimes it is difficult to sift through all the nuances and I have to reread concepts several times. I also suspect that MacArthur is often misrepresented by his critics.
I was looking up a little more on this term & it's also something Christians have been "charged" with
in Theological circles. (I don't mean to stir the pot up again-it's just something which I didn't know & ran across.**) There is more to this whole eternal security debate than I realized. It's apparently been going on for quite some time.
Antinomianism
Antinomianism is from the Greek [anti] meaning opposed to, and [nomos] meaning Law. In Theological terms it denotes those who oppose God's law. Theologians generally hold that there are two types of Antinomians. "Explicit" Antinomians are obvious reprobates who disregard the laws of God, and "implicit" Antinomians are professed Christians who falsely construe that they have New-Testament "liberty" from the law of God. That is to say, because they believe they are saved by Grace and not works, they surmise that it doesn't matter how they live in transgression of laws.
Here is a little background of it Antinomianism General Information
Whoa Lisa!!!
You wrote:
(BTW-if you believe in unconditional eternal security then you would be considered an
"Antinomian".)
In all fairness, I have to come to my OSAS brothers and sisters defense on that one. (Not that they aren't VERY capable of defending themselves.)
I disagree with them on the OSAS issue but based upon the extensive comments they have provided, I think it is very clear that they are not arguing that Christians can simply disregard all moral law that God has given us.
#1.) I think some (if not all) of them have position is that a person who is truly saved, they simply will not live their lives as if God doesn't exist and sin as if it doesn't matter.
#2.) They take the position (as do you and I, I think) that if a Christian sins, there is forgiveness in Christ.
#3.) They also believe (as do you and I, I think) that God will judge the Christians works (both good and bad). They just don't believe that salvation is at stake. So, there are consequences (both natural and spiritual), but losing salvation is not one of them.
I don't think it is accurate to say if you believe in unconditional eternal security then you would be considered an
"Antinomian".
"Antinomian" ...
Wasn't that the stuff that made Superman turn blue and grow gills? (Or am I thinking of The Flash... ?)
<><
Speaking of John MacArthur, I heard him on the radio about a month ago. The broadcast message was titled "Answering the Key Questions About the Doctrine of Election." The doctrines of election and eternal security are closely tied together (at least from MacArthur's point of view).
Anyway, he can articulate his position well but I have to say he has a poor understanding of the other side. We have to be careful to strive to understand where other brothers and sisters in Christ are coming from and saying and not be too quick to make assumptions about their real position. I'm preaching to myself here, too.
For those of you who have tried to articulate and defend the OSAS position, I appreciate your thoughtful comments and patience. I have tried to consider them carefully as I keep going back to Scriptures and examining the issue.
Having said that, I still think Scripture warns born again believers about the possibility of falling away from Christ, not because Christ fails us but because we fail to abide in Him. As long as we want to have a relationship with Him and are surrendered, I believe we are absolutely secure.
BTW, I did order a CD of that John MacArthur broadcast so that I can listen to it carefully.
Jim C.,
Did you notice the Little Dee strip for January 16, 2009?
It's about messing up the cave!
I'm still trying to get my head around the conflict surrounding Lordship Salvation and why MacArthur is hammered on that one.
"Iranian Unit" Destroyed, Hamas was Surprised
Jan. 17….(IsraelNN.com) Hamas took a gamble. We thought, at worst Israel will come and do something from the air - superficial. The so-called "Iranian Unit" of Hamas has been destroyed, according to Gaza sources cited Thursday by the Haaretz daily. The sources said most of the unit's 100 members were killed in fighting in the Zeytun neighborhood of Gaza City. The terrorists had been trained in infantry tactics, the use of anti-tank missiles and the detonation of explosives, among other skills, by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard at Hizbullah camps in Lebanon's Beka'a Valley, as well as sites in Iran. The IDF Southern Command has reportedly stepped up ground operations in Gaza, in anticipation of a ceasefire declaration in the near future. Senior officers said Thursday that there are probably no more than a few days until the end of the fighting. According to the Arab sources, when that happens Iran will send money to assist Hamas in restoring its military capabilities, in addition to the more widely-publicized program of rebuilding destroyed homes. Two captured terrorists interviewed by Maariv/NRG say that Hamas was not expecting Israel's response to the escalation in missile attacks on Israeli targets that preceded Operation Cast Lead. One of them, a 52-year-old victim of a premature detonation who had already done time in an Israeli jail, said, "Hamas took a gamble. We thought, at worst Israel will come and do something from the air, something superficial. They'll come in and go out. We never thought that we would reach the point where fear will swallow the heart and the feet will want to flee. You [Israel] are fighting like you fought in '48. What got into you all of a sudden?" The second terrorist, a 21-year-old, said Hamas brought order to Gaza, but also brought fear. He noted that it was dangerous in Gaza for non-Hamas members.
Mac,
I'm not too familiar with "the conflict surrounding Lordship Salvation" unless it is just this topic we've been discussing under a different name.
I think we might all agree on the following. It's a thought that has crossed my mind several times.
That is, if Christ is not your Lord, he can't be your Savior. Only God (the Lord) is capable of saving us. We can't have one without the other.
Now, what it means for Christ to be our Lord (how that is established, lived out, and kept) I think is what we are debating to a certain point. I mean, we all agree it is by grace, through faith. The question is what does that faith look like and what is the nature of that faith?
By the way, I think it is wonderful that you and Alesia have different leanings on this question and yet you are wrestling together over this, growing in the Lord, and maintaing a spirit of love. You both serve as great examples for us all!
(I'm not trying to indict anyone with those comments, just appreciating the love and grace between Alesia and Mac).
GT,
Great to see you again!
You asked:
Don't want to get back into OSAS, just wondering about this point though. If this is true than what are the following verses referring to?
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
I did some digging and learned the following:
The word "sealed" used in Eph.
is a verb with the following characteristics:
Tense: Aorist
Voice: Passive
Mood: Indicative
The aorist tense states that an action occurs without regard to its duration. It is analogous to a snapshot which captures an action at specific point in time.
So GT, I think the verb tense offers no guarantee of unconditional security into the future.
In indicative mood, aorist can indicate punctiliar action (happens at a specific point in time) in past.
The passive voice conveys the idea that the SUBJECT is being ACTED UPON by an OUTSIDE force or power. SUBJECT is the RECIPIENT or the RECEIVER of the verbal action or effect. In English passive voice is usually indicated by the phrase "to be".
I believe we are the passive ones acted upon based upon our yielding to and faith in Christ. But I don't think yielding and faith are meant to be single events at a particular time in the past. They should continue throughout a Christian's life.
MOOD of CERTAINTY = simply states a thing as being a FACT. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
From the Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's G4972 - sphragizō
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
a) for security: from Satan
b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
c) in order to mark a person or a thing
1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
2) angels are said to be sealed by God
d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
a) of a written document
b) to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be
***************************
Having the mark or seal of the Lord put on us, I don't think, in and of itself, guarantees that it will remain. The mark seems to accompany faithfulness according to Scripture.
I just don't see the 3 Scriptures you listed as dispositive of the issue.
Regarding Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Commenting on Hebrews 7:22 (“Jesus was made a surety of a better covenant”), Westcott declares, “Christ is not said to be a surety for man to God, but a surety of a covenant of God with man.” In like manner, while the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance and the pledge of God’s faithfulness, He is no surety of our corresponding faithfulness. The coming of the Spirit of grace into our hearts at conversion is no guarantee that we shall not subsequently grieve, quench, and finally do despite to Him who comes to guide our steps toward the Jerusalem which is above.
“Brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh,” warns Paul. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are sons of God” (Rom. 8:12-14). Men who have no concern to live after the Spirit of God cannot remain His sons. “This [sonship], although a product of God’s grace, depends for its continuance on man’s passive obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit of God.” The faithful ministry of the Holy Spirit avails nothing for men who become indifferent toward His nurture and guidance and who despise His reproof. Preaching from Ephesians 4:30 (“Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption”) Maclaren said:
We have here a plain warning as to the possibility of thwarting [the Holy Spirit’s] influences. Nothing here about irresistible grace; nothing here about a power that lays hold upon a man and makes him good, he lying passive in its hands like clay in the hands of the potter! You will not be made holy without the Divine Spirit; but you will not be made holy without your working along with it. There is a possibility of resisting, and there is a possibility of co-operating. Man is left free. God does not lay hold of anyone by the hair of his head and drag him into paths of righteousness whether he will or no…We have to work with God, and we can resist. Ay, and there is a deeper and a sadder word than that applied by the same Apostle in another letter to the same subject. We can “quench” the light and extinguish the fire.
*******************************
From Life in the Son, by Robert Shank
(quoting in part from commentaries by B. F. Westcott, H. P. Liddon, and Alexander Maclaren)
Epistle to the Hebrews, by B. F. Westcott
Explanatory Analysis of St. Paul's First Epistle to Timothy by H. P. Liddon
Expositions of Holy Scripture: Ephesians, by Alexander Maclaren
Seal Us, O Holy Spirit
Seal us, O Holy Spirit,
Grant us Thine impress, we pray;
We would be more like the Savior,
Stamped with His image today.
Refrain
Seal us, seal us,
Seal us just now, we pray;
Seal us, O Holy Spirit,
Seal us for service today.
Seal us, O Holy Spirit,
Help us Thy likeness to show;
Then from our life unto others
Streams of rich blessings shall flow.
Refrain
Seal us, O Holy Spirit,
Make us Thine own from this hour;
Let us be useful, dear Master,
Seal us with witnessing power.
Refrain
Hymn words by Isaac H. Meredith, 1900.
Joel has updated his post from yesterday, answering this question:
“Is there a connection between Bible prophecy and the war in Gaza right now?”
Israel puts pressure on Hamas before truce vote
Strikes on Gaza continue ahead of imminent ceasefire
Yishai: Ban Ki-Moon Channeling Hamas
Europe's estrangement from Israel
Qatar, Mauritania cut ties with Israel
Researcher: North Korea has weaponized plutonium
Fresh Clues of Iranian Nuclear Intrigue
U.S. intelligence chief: Iran nuclear weapon could start regional war
Report: Russia plans navy bases in Libya, Syria,Yemen
Frost Over The World - Javier Solana - 16 Jan 09 - Part 1
Jim G.,
Thank you for saying that about Mac & I!
It's not hard, I have the utmost respect for Mac, and he for me. Our greater concern for the other's feelings help to keep us humble & not let ego or pride creep in just to prove we're right or prove our point.
It also helps greatly that neither one of us is militantly dogmatic.
It has benefitted us both greatly, whilst he still leans one way, I still lean the other.
However, we've both learned & pondered new things & have a greater appreciation for the others view.
Once again, I'd like to thank you (and Lisa) for being so gracious.
During this discussion you've been thrown into defense mode quite a bit & have shown great love & respect for your fellow brothers & sisters throughout.
I applaud both you AND Lisa for that.
*** Now, you should have seen my reaction to the fold or scrunch question/answer.
Noooooooo -- AAAAAHHHHHHHHHH -- ~fingers in ears~ la, la, la, la, la, la
Say it ain't so, say it ain't so!!!
I guess the bottm line is that we all ought to make sure we are in and remain in Christ!
There are so many things we will never be totally sure of while we are in this realm.
Let's remain in Him.
I'm sure I'll get accused of taking this out of context but I don't think Scripture could be any clearer about this!
It is to be square—a span long and a span wide—and folded double.
Exodus 28:16
P.S. Folding is very scriptural. I can't find a reference to "scrunching" anywhere in Scripture.
P.P.S. (Get it? P.P.S.) Sorry about those of you who tend to lose control when laughing.
Donna,
BINGO!!!
Jim G. - you scare me. LOL
I may have to go start a cult, I think I shall call it...
"The scrunchers"
Yes. Amen Donna!!!
Jim G,
Look at the History of this belief & look up the word "Antinomian".
The belief of irresistible grace & the inability to loose ones salvation after being born again
was even rearing it's head in Paul's day.
Look at what the theologians who did not hold the unconditional view throughout the centuries-they would "charge" this way of thinking of being "Antinomian."
I'm not calling our brothers & sisters in Christ here "Antinomian" or "Lawless" because despite this belief they still obey God's commands & follow Him.
But people who opposed irresistible grace would call this belief "Antionomian" and taken to the extreme it is capable of bringing a Christian into lawlessness-such as living a sinful lifestyle, quenching the Holy Spirit, and resting assured that you'll be saved even when you are living in rebellion of Christ & His laws just as you did when you were an unbeliever/sinner.
Donna for instance-believes all of her sins-past/present/& future are forgiven whether she is actively following Christ of not. (If this is incorrect-speak up.) She is on Auto-Pilot w/the Lord & cannot loose her salvation no matter what sins she could fall into since it's now God's responsibly to "keep her saved" at all costs.
So to clear it up-I am not calling anyone here lawless- but I do think that this mindset can indeed lead a Christian into traveling down that road without a sense of Holy conviction & respect for a Holy God.
We live in a world which is so far from what "Holy" actually is I'm afraid it's not an easy concept to grasp.
"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." Heb 3:14
"Our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed." Romans 13:11
"All men will hate you because of me, but he who stnds firm to the end will be saved." Matt 10:22
"Fear God & keep His commandments."
I was in Costco a couple of nights ago and noticed a note on their food court menu that their hot dogs were "new!" (like new and improved).
I didn't think much about it until after I left the store. It made me wonder if the new dogs were still kosher.
No more Hebrew National Kosher Hot Dogs at Costco Food Court
What does the disappearance of kosher hot dogs at Costco mean? Are they going to start serving Hamasburgers instead?
Lisa,
Thanks for the clarification. That definitely helps (at least it helped me appreciate more what you were saying). And I did appreciate the link you provided earlier to Antinomianism General Information.
Child of the King;
Yes! However I am considering all relevent scripture, to arrive at the "complete truth"!
Jim G.
"Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
The question is not what tense "sealed" has in this passage because it is answered at the end of the passage,(unto the day of redemption). I guess that is the next question though. What is the day of redemption??
I do however, see your points and those of others that question OSAS.
I believe like you do that both sides are sometimes misrepresented and misunderstood. We must abide in Christ, but how is that achieved, through our own power or through His?
I once heard someone say that if you are concerned about the precious gift of your salvation then you are saved, if you are not concerned, and ignore the promptings of the Spirit then you may not be saved. In a way this sums up my views on the matter. I think that all of us fall into the former catagory although we may all ignore His promptings from time to time because our own will gets in the way and takes control. This is what I think is meant by "working out your salvation" although in my view it has more to do with sanctification than salvation. God bless!
Maranatha!
New post is up
Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly!
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