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151 comments:
mwahahahahaha
Our Soldiers
IT'S ALIVE! IT'S ALIVE, I TELL YOU!!
<><
Mac, having lost someone so close, my daughter's best friend's husband in Iraq, and our pastor's son-in-law, those videos always get the tears flowing. I'm working on the pictures from Hannah's wedding. I've been posting some of my favorites at Shutterblog...
MAC - You're never going to believe this.
I think one of the pictures in the video you posted is of my cousin!!!
I copied the picture & I'm going to send it off to his mom & see.
Thank you so much - yep, it made me cry like a baby.
Sunday School Wisdom
A collection of Interesting facts revealed by young people in Sunday school!
The first book of the Bible is Guiness, in which Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree.
Noah's wife was called Joan of Ark.
Lot's wife was a pillar of salt by day and a ball of fire by night.
Samson slayed the Philistines with the axe of the apostles.
Unleavened bread is bread made without ingredients.
Moses went to the top of Mt. Cyanide to get the 10 commandments.
The seventh commandment is "Thou shalt not admit adultery."
Joshua led the Hebrews in the battle of Geritol.
David fought with the Finkelsteins, a race of people who lived in Biblical times.
The people who followed Jesus was called the 12 decibals.
The epistles were the wives of the apostles.
One of the opossums was St. Matthew.
Paul preached holy acrimony, which is another name for marriage.
A Christian should have only one wife. This is called monotony.
I had not heard of this before so I thought to post it. The same guy is also keen on Israel,the UN, & the rest.Seems up to date on what's happening.
"The Christian "Elite" such as Hal Lindsay, John Haggee and Tim La Haye (Left Behind Books) have also added to this deception,portraying Antichrist as a Politician or a Political Dictator, to help blind the world to the true Identity of The Antichrist.Back in 1982, The Lord revealed to me who Antichrist (The Beast) is. For the next 24 years, I watched his following grow into a global cult and I realized this person truly is The Antichrist, The Son of Satan, the "awaited one" and many are being deceived. I believe God has led me to wait until the right time to reveal this information and JUNE 6 2006 (6.6.06.) is this right time and day.
The Bible Code shows 2006 (5766) encoded with YEAR OF THE BEAST, and it truly is as now for 2006 AD you will know the True Identity and name of The Antichrist.
"Antichrist" (The Beast) does not come onto the world scene as a Politician in a three piece suit, as a man with all of the answers and a plan for world peace.Satan will send The Antichrist as His False Christ, as a Counterfeit Messiah wearing a white robe.
ANTICHRIST COMES AS THE SAVIOR OR MESSIAH (CHRIST) OF ALL RELIGIONS,
FAITHS AND CREEDS. Antichrist will claim to called by many names, Krishna to The Hindus, Emmanuel (Messiah) to The Jews, Maitreya to The Buddhists, Iman Mahdi to The Moslems and "Christ" to the one billion Catholics & Christians.
Antichrist will claim to be The "Savior" of the lesser known religions as well, SAYOSHANT To Zoroasterism, THE BEAST to The Satanists, MITHRA & HERMES to The Illuminati, The Great Lord to the Witches, The Return of QUEZECOATAL (Mayans) and The GREAT WHITE BROTHER of Hopi Indian Prophecy and the Egyptian god, OSIRUS, resurrected from the dead.
ANTICHRIST WILL ANNOUNCE ON EVERY
TELEVISION SET ON PLANET EARTH
"YOU CALL ME BY MANY NAMES
AND TITLES, BUT I AM HE".
And in less than a month's time, Antichrist (The Beast) will Unite all of the world's religions, "Together as One", the fulfillment of the ancientProphecy and Warning.
"AND THROUGH PEACE SHALL HE DESTROY MANY" (Dan:8:25)
M A I T R E Y A
And in his personal name, herein rests The Wisdom MAITREYA is the the 5th and Coming Buddha, The Buddha of Compassion.
The name of MAITREYA IN THE HEBREW ALPHABET CALCULATES TO SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX (666).
MAITREYA is the name of The Antichrist, The Beast of Rev:13
6.6.6.
There are seven variations to The Hebrew Spelling of the name, MAITREYA and all seven Calculate to six hundred & sixty six = 666.
What is more amazing is that all seven, Hebrew spellings (pronunciations) of the name, MAITREYA are also found in The Bible Code.
SO ANY WAY YOU SPELL MAITREYA IN HEBREW, IT IS ENCODED IN THE BIBLE CODE AS A FUTURE WARNING TO HEBREW SCHOLARS AND TO THE WORLD.
The name of MAITREYA calculates to 666 because he is The Ultimate Abomination, a Man claiming to be “God Incarnate”, Divinity in human form.
MAITREYA will also add to this Abomination when he claims it is the destiny for all of Humanity to become a god, he will simply show us the way. If this sounds familiar, it’s because this is the same exact lie The Serpent (Satan) told Eve in The Garden of Eden, “You shall be as gods”.
Antichrist will repeat and teach this ancient Lie (from Genesis) at the Time of The End, at The Revelation. (“man as god” is also the crux of all occult religions including Esoteric Buddhism, Gnosticism and all forms of Satanism
WORD OF CAUTION
I STRONGLY WARN AGAINST SPEAKING THE NAME OF ANTICHRIST (MAITREYA). I BELIEVE TO DO SO MAY INVOKE GREAT EVIL. AND YOU MAY HAVE AN "UNINVITED GUEST" APPEAR, MAYBE A DEMON OR SATAN HIMSELF!
666 IS A CODE BETTER BROKEN THAN SPOKEN,A NAME THAT IS BEST
READ AND NOT SAID.
BY HARRY WALTHER
(And you know what's extra weird? A friend of mine just told me today he is planning on converting to Buddhism. (He was raised Catholic & Advent.)He also would like to visit a mosque but has yet to do so since he would HAVE to renounce Christ 1st.)
Ok, so after all that.... who is he???
Alesia, Shalom! You wrote:
Ok, so after all that.... who is he???
MAITREYA, the the 5th and Coming Buddha, The Buddha of Compassion.
<><
From the New York Post:
RUSSIA RATTLES SABER ON US MISSILE SHIELD
Russia warned yesterday it will use its military might - and not diplomacy - to prevent the United States from deploying a missile defense shield close to its borders.
The blunt threat came hours after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice won a promise from the Czech Republic to base US radar on that former Soviet ally's soil.
"We will be forced to react not with diplomatic methods, but with military-technical methods," the Russian foreign ministry said.
Cinstance Cumbey often talks about the Maitreya phenomenon – here is her latest article.
Um...that should be Constance, not Cinstance. Yibbida!
this Harold guy strikes me kind of as a nutcase.
Lisa
regarding the walls-I think you are correct that Israel is living without walls. In Ezekiel's day all cities had fortified walls around them an Israel such as we currently have would have been completely foreign to the people of his day-no one in their right mind would be outside the wall as you would be completely unprotected. Many say the war of Gog and Magog can not be now because Israel is not living in peace meaning the complete absence of violence. I think it depends oh whose definition you use.
Regarding the 7 churches I don't interpret them to be prototypes of individuals Christians if that is what you mean. I think they were 7 literal churches in that day, and historically representative of church systems
(early church, catholic church, church of the reformation etc) throughout the ages. there are a number of interpretations and I have seen some interpret Christ's words to the 7 churches and apply them to individuals rather than the corporate church body.
on a different note I recieved word from our friend Steve about his ongoing parental battle and I'm not so sure demonic forces aren't at work. A new plan containing everything she wants has been presented with certain safeguards for her daughters and she is claiming she's never wanted any of it and won't agree to it because she'll lose a substantial sum of money and she considers tormenting her ex her business and the money her salary. very sick
By SHARON K. GILBERT
July 10, 2008 -WILL WE, OR WON’T WE? That is the question in the minds of many regarding the probability that the US and/or Israel will attack Iran. Not surprisingly, I’ve been keeping my eye on the situation, and here are a few clues as to what might soon occur:
Nice photo, Kathy!
Shalom, all! Just a little something to make you smile. I got a compliment on the Catholic Answers forum regarding my answers to some questions on Gog\Magog, with the guy saying:
I would also like to thank Muzhik for their posts. Your effort has not gone unnoticed and I, for one, am reading them with interest. Of course if you stated we should all go hide in a cave for fear of the end or stand on a particular mountain as it is a better place to be raptured up I would stop reading them but so far so good.
I then posted this reply:
I would NEVER think of telling you to do such things. Not at first, anyway. I'd want to take some time building up to the idea. But not too long, though, because the deals I have on these caves are just divine. They're out in the desert where the air is dry and clean, and deep enough in the mountainside to keep them at an even temperature year round. They come in a variety of sizes too, from the large family-sized caverns down to our "hermit cell" model, perfect for focusing your meditations on sin and death. And all cave openings face east, so when that final trump sounds, you'll have the perfect view to see Our Lord returning in triumph! All for very reasonable rates, with financing available. Just drop me an email when you're ready to take that next step in your spiritual preparation for the End of Days.
(Just don't wait too long. Some JWs have expressed an interest, and we'd want to make sure there was a good representation of Catholics in the community, won't we?)
<><
From Koininia House:
Pressing On To Maturity
A Major Biblical Enigma
Hmmm, Mr Carroll, do I detect a business opportunity in the making?
Mr. "smarty pants" Carroll - I surmised that from Lisa's post. What I meant was who is this person? Does he have a name? Is he around now?
Details, I need!
Very funny about the cave selling! lol
Ya know, I read that & thought - what would someone think if they came here & heard us talking about the "cave"? Would they think we were some crazy cult folk?
For Jib:
A Brief History Of Medicine
I have an earache.
2000 B.C. - Here, eat this root.
1000 A.D. - That root is heathen, say this prayer.
1850 A.D. - That prayer is superstition, drink this potion.
1940 A.D. - That potion is snake oil, swallow this pill.
1985 A.D. - That pill is ineffective, take this antibiotic.
2000 A.D. - That antibiotic is artificial. Here, eat this root.
Some more info. on this weird Maitreya business....
Maitreya
Where is everyone? I'm having a rare (lately) blabber-mouth day & no one is around - hmph.
Has anyone heard of the book or author: "Loving God" by Charles Colson?
I have another work colleague who emailed me today telling me she started going to church a month ago! (I sent her my blog address about 2 months ago) & asked me if I had read this book.
I checked out the reviews on Amazon, but didn't really learn much. I want to be able to steer her away from it if it's one of those hookie-pookie/new age/feel good books. Although the title doesn't sound like it is, but one never knows.
Let me know if you've read it or heard of it, please.
And thank you too kindly!
Alesia,
Product Description
Do we love God . . . really? In this Gold Medallion Award-winning classic, Colson challenges the complacency of many contemporary believers, offering a probing look at the cost of discipleship and the meaning of the first and greatest commandment. Dare to strip away the trappings of shallow cultural Christianity and rediscover true faith! 320 pages, hardcover from Zondervan.
Recommend Loving God to Your Friends
Product Information
Format: Hardcover
Number of Pages: 320
Vendor: Zondervan
Publication Date: 2006
Dimensions: 8 X 5.37 (inches)
ISBN: 0310607116
ISBN-13: 9780310607113
UPC: 0025986607111
Availability: In Stock
Publisher's Description
In his magnificent classic, Chuck Colson shakes the church from its complacency with a penetrating look at the cost of being Christian. For those who have wondered whether there isn’t more to Christianity than what they have known — and for those who have never considered the question — Loving God points the way to faith’s cutting edge. Here is a compelling, probing look at the cost of discipleship and the meaning of the first and greatest commandment — one that will strum a deeper, truer chord within even as it strips away the trappings of shallow, cultural Christianity.
Customer Reviews
Average Rating: 5 out of 5 stars(5 out of 5 stars)
1 of 1 Reviews Showing:
5 out of 5 starsReviewed by Beverly S Sipe (Conover, NC), April 30, 2008
As one easily distracted from finishing a book, conversely, this book I could not put down. The diverse accounts of God moving through His people stirred me to realize He can use anyone in any situation for His glory. I knew that in my head and heart, but to be reminded by these stories, awoke a desire to "go and do likewise". For there is no greater joy than loving God and loving others.
Hi Alesia,
I haven't read that book myself, but I can report one unhappy fact about Colson...
He was a speaker recently at the "Rethink" conference which was hosted by Schuller, etc. (also attending were Kay Warren and a few other "motivational" speakers whose connection to Christianity I couldn't find...Larry King?) Check out the Rethink info and you'll see. All very feel-good, let's take Christianity in a new, more palatable direction stuff.
Anyway, Colson also runs Prison Fellowship which I currently work with as a penpal. You might have heard of Angel Tree which sends Christmas gifts to children of prisoners. That's also a PF group. I think Colson started out great and on the right track, but with this participation in Rethink, I'd say to really check out the book and make sure it isn't a recent publication.
Seems like there's almost nothing left that you can recommend these days! Argh!
Blessings,
Jen
Here's a link to an article on Rethink from WND
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58405
Alesia, Shalom! I didn't mean to sound "smarty-pants" -- frankly, it took me two or three tries of reading that thing before I realized it was the name of a person and not some word they threw in there to make it sound all new-agey.
<><
Anonymous - Thanks!
I was looking for personal opinions, however.
Jen - Thanks as well, I checked out that link - does not sound good. I did a quick google of him & am surprised I never heard of him because he seems to be all over the place.
I think I'm going to have her lend me the book, then give her my opinion after reading it. Maybe that will look like I didn't dismiss her right off the bat.
Jim - I was totally teasing you with the "smarty pants" comment!
:-)
Alesia, I have had utmost respect for Colson over the years and haven't yet checked out his participation in the Rethink thing. I'm going to hold off judgement on that until I know for sure. I have a few of his more recent books, but admit I haven't yet read them (huge pile of books to read, thanks to many of you). I really, really hope he's not gone off the path.
Some of his commentaries
Oh, come on now.
With a name like "Harry" can he be that bad?
Since I never heard of "MAITREYA" & the fact it adds up to 666 anyway you spell it- Seems worth to check out. (I have to read the recent links you all have posted on it)Also, the idea that the Anti-Christ will come about differently that what the "popular" opinion is would also something to keep stored in the ole memory banks.
There was also something else on the "Bible Code". I have not looked into this "Code" concept before so I don't know much about it although I see it brought up now and then. The predictions can be "prevented" by acting upon the information in advance is what I've heard.
On 8/8/08 there is a code for a terrorist attack on the Crysler Bld. by another Airplane.The 2nd option is something in Miami.There is also a 'code' that Obama is elected & at some point assassinated.
The Last Trumpet Newsletter has listed quite a few parallel events happening @ once which back up or claim that we are in the "End Times"
But here is a something he stated about 8/8/08:
The massive earthquake in Red China, which measured 8 on average of all recording stations, happened 88 days before the Olympics are scheduled to start on 8-8-08 at 8:08 P.M. The number eight is known as the number of new beginning.
Hi guys,
I didn't mean to imply that Colson is someone to stay away from. I remember listening to his Breakpoint radio messages years ago and always found them solid (although I also thought Hannegraff was pretty good, too, until I recently learned about his views!) I still support PF and intend to stick with the penpal work I do. Same with World Vision. We support a little girl in that organization although I was dismayed to see the president of that group (is it Richard Stearns...can't rememeber without looking it up) sign off on some of the questionable evangelical statements that we were discussing earlier this year. With a global organization such as WV, I can see how easily it would be to get influenced by those who are trying to get everyone to work together to eliminate the problems of the world. Until recently I was on board (as a teacher of immigrant children) with lots of the multicultural efforts aimed at bringing understanding between groups. Now I have a big ol' antennae up on all those issues.
So please don't throw any babies out with bathwater until you take a further look. I just remember seeing Colson listed as a speaker and then read some of the post-conference commentary about his apparent support for some of the emergent church message that he had formerly questioned.
Well, gotta run. We're out of town for the weekend.
Blessings,
Jen
Jim C.
Here's one for you:
At the White House on April 16th, 2008, the Pope was presented with a birthday cake, which was in the exact shape of a Babylonian tower, with one candle on the top. (42) Candles on birthday cakes are used in the occult to represent the position of the sun-god in the zodiac on the day of one's birth. It was a symbol of a person's connection with the heavens.
More interseting info out of the Last Trumpet June editionSome good stuff on McCain,Hillary,& Obama. (Look @ the "horserace" story)
Jen, no problem on the Colson thing. I agree about checking people out. I just wish I didn't have to keep checking people out again and again! sigh.
Lisa, you come up with the strangest stuff to read!
Thanks Jen & Anne for the feedback on Colson. My friend offered to lend me the book, she was very impressed, so maybe I'll take her up on it for no other reason than to start dialogue. Sounds like the best thing to do.
Lisa - I was going to thank you for the Last Trumpet link -BUT-, I read it from bottom to top & got really irate over the Iraq war comments. Especially the sexual harrassment stuff....
~hang on - putting on helmet & armor for protection first~
I don't think women (or gays) should be in the military, in the case of women, for this very reason. I better stop at that or there might be a lynch mob after me!
Hi Alesia,
No, I don't think this is not print on demand, although I will ask him myself. The publisher underestimated the buzz... meaning, this has been a highly anticipated book. I know several family members (including myself) that waiting a day too long before ordering, they are also on a wait list.
My in-laws ordered it the day before and already have their copy.
It's amazing how God is using this book already.
My great aunt who just last week said, she didn't believe the Bible and that our pastor was a "crook," is reading the book and has ordered two copies for other people. Truely, we are in shock.
We knew that when Uncle Bob got saved, he was going to do some major damage to evil. He is a very intelligent guy who investigates everything thoroughly.
I think he told me that he studied for about 13,000 hours for this book.
He's already writing a second, I think he's going to call it, Unlocking God's Mysteries.
I read the unedited version last year for the first book, I can't wait to get the finished copy.
I ordered two copies, one to keep, one to share.. also it gave me free shipping.
Well, ya'll be blessed and keep looking up, anytime now....
love ya's
lori
Yes indeed it's strange. (At least no one can ever accuse me of being an ostrich.)
But on a more serious note. By looking into these different religions/beliefs-the thread of Satan runs though all of them and converge to the same point.
"Men are gods." "We can evolve into a higher state" "Those who don't comply should be exterminated."
How do you think he is going to unite people of every faith & culture? It's all in the works right now & has been for centuries.
Hitler & his atrocities. The guy made lampshades out of human skins. Utter disgust & Satanism.
He was obviously
influenced/possessed by Satan.
Just think of the upcoming Anti-Christ. He'll be much worse than Hitler-and will come after the Christians because this time the chosen Jews will be supernaturally protected. Who wanted to face what was REALLY happening in Hitler's era?
We are going to have another Holocaust but it's the Christians turn this time.
Does anyone realize how serious this is and could be upon us shortly? While were doing our day to day routines-Satan is very busy behind the scenes.
There is nothing we can really do to stop it but we can inform others.
It's hard to believe that there are people who sincerely want the population knocked down so they can create a one world utopia.
I think that's why this philosophy necessitates belonging to a "secrete" group. If they let the cat out of the bag before mission accomplished-these people would have their own lives at stake.
Alesia,
See I didn't notice those Iraq comments-I'll have to re-read it.
It's a cause for sifting through the junk and keeping the good stuff.
I think your our patriot here! (:
Hi, gang!
I wanted to just say "Hi", and let you know I'm still alive. I think the last time I was here that I quit my job as a church secretary. Come to find out I did absolutely the right thing and I praise God for it.
The day after my last day at work I headed to Florida. My brother had major surgery that day (and came through just fine, thank God), plus I wanted to visit my aging mother and other family members. I was gone almost two weeks. (I just now remembered that I posted at least once while I was down there, so you may have already heard this.)
Anyway, now I'm back, trying to catch up, look for a job, etc., etc.
Before all this drama, some of you asked me some questions about my beliefs. I know you have all gone on to other topics now, but I don't want you to think that I'm avoiding your questions. So if you still have any, fire away and I'll try my best to answer them.
May God be with you,
Vicki
Alesia, Here is the response from Uncle Bob.
Dear Lori,
No, it is not print on demand. There is a warehouse full of them at the publisher's. Evidently Amazon just got their first shipment and sold out the first day. I'm sure another shipment is already on the way. It is kind of exciting for a little boy from the mountains of NC.
By the way, anybody can always e-mail me with questions or comments. I don't mind at all.
Love, Uncle Bob
I just got this other note from Uncle Bob... too funny
Dear Family,
Interestingly, the book started out at the very bottom of the
totem pole for Amazon.com, number 707,123. I just checked and it has
climbed to number 7,397 the first day. That still leaves a long way to
go, but I thought it was a pretty impressive jump. We jumped over almost
700,000 other books in sales already. God just might be involved.
Love, Dad (Bob)
Lisa,
I realize how serious it is. It is my position that the church is going to be smack dab in the middle of the great tribulation and for the most part will be unprepared. Paul told the Thessalonians that the day of the Lord would not come before the man of lawlessness is revealed. He also told them (and by way of application - us!) that that day will not overtake them like a thief. Why? Because we know what signs to be watching for. You all are familiar with the prewrath position. So if things begin to fall in line under that framework, you all hopefully will not be surprised but will be much better prepared.
Ok, there's my prewrath plug for the month. Back to wedding pics.
Alesia, I have my AK-something or other ready to cover your back! No fatigues though as I outgrew them along the way of the road called Old Age.
I agree 100% about women in active service as a soldier and I don't feel that I am old fashioned, just in case anyone wants to put that little snip in their response. Funny thing is, no one else that knows me and lives near me considers me an old fuddy duddy either. But women do not belong in the trenches in any manner. If I go to the trench it is to check out how the men are getting along with the job. I know that I am a woman, that God special made me to be a part of the man I would be a help meet for and I love it! I can protect my country in a greater way by being a Godly woman who knows that the hard places on her knees are Good! That my feet are shod with the Gospel of peace but I can route out the enemy of all our souls with the Sword of the Spirit and the power of God's word. Like Pat Robertson says, Bring It On!
I am going to be gone for a few days to visit my daughter and I might not be on the internet while there. I like the time spent there to be special and Becky/LeRoy are planning on making a major relocation in the near future. So, I am going to make hay while the sun is shining and the field up there needs some cultivating.
By the way Lisa, I am saved by the power of the Blood of Jesus Christ and nothing can separate me from him. He died once on a cross for all mankind and it was the only acceptable sacrifice for sin that God recognizes. When I sin, it is up to me to repent and turn around from that sin. I don't need a bull horn to tell me, I know it from the Holy Spirit. Pride always comes before a fall and vain glory is not my chase. If I spend my time chasing after things other than my relationship with God, then I have made the wrong choices. Keeping my eyes on the prize of God's Kingdom is the only way I can stay out of the trenches that Satan and his ilk devise. I don't have to run after every thing else. God's word tells us to think on these things, whatsoever is holy, pure, acceptable, honest and of a good report. Getting lost in the labyrinth of the slim pit does not enrich my life nor lead me to Still Waters or restore my soul.
Love you all,
Grany
you go girl!
Anne
Lisa's hat needs the tinfoil replaced I think that's how she finds so many weird articles :-) (kidding sort of Lisa)
Lori
Great news about your uncles books.
Alesia
the only Colson book I have ever read was a rather lengthy tome called "How then shall we now live" or something like that. It was a fabulous book. He was a Nixon scapegoat and found Christ while serving his time for watergate-not sure if you were aware of that. doesn't make a difference if he's strayed just an interesting tidbit.
to all
my foot still hurts and not a lot of progress made over the last 4 weeks. we go on an actual vacation-not just a meeting-in about 14 days and it involves a lot of walking and standing. it would be ever so nice if it felt better by then. Also my brother coughed and split cartilage and tendons in his chest-that seems better but his abdomen hurts still. He has a job interview this tuesday-less driving, smaller paycheck but since substantial less driving that it might actually be a raise, and summers to go to school to get his master's degree. Please pray (he's a high school science teacher)
Kathy
got to tell you-love that picture!
Some heavy meat to digest...
THE SCREAM OF THE DAMNED...was Jesus really damned by God for our salvation?
Thanks Joyce...which picture?! I posted a whole bunch. =) I'll be praying about that foot of yours.
If anyone is interested I've posted a web album of Hannah and Willie's wedding. I'll be adding to it as I work on the images.
Oh, do you mean the one of me and my hubby?! If so, I like it too. =)
The federal government took control of Pasadena-based IndyMac Bank on Friday in what regulators called the second-largest bank failure in U.S. history
Where's our old friend Grumpy when you need him? He always had interesting comments and insight about the banking industry.
Jim G.
Mac,
Now I want to hear Piper's lecture and see what context he said "scream of the damned."
"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me." has always been a big question for my hubby & I've tried to answer it the best I could.
The article writer seems to like Calvin quite a bit so he may view things through OSAS lenses.
It is a "shocking" word to use & was apparently bothered by it. But is he just guessing what Piper meant by it or did Piper go onto explain what he meant by it by the rest of his teaching?
When I hear "the scream of the damned" I also immediately think of someone damned eternally to hell.
Who can fully recognize what Jesus went through @ that point in time. It's hard to understand when Jesus,God,and the Holy Spirit are 3 in 1.
In what fashion can the three separate themselves? This is spiritual knowledge I don't think we can comprehend.
I've heard some teachers say @ that point Jesus said that because God & the Holy Spirit actually abandoned Jesus @ that point because he had "taken on the sin of mankind." Not that Jesus was sinful or "turned into sin."
Do you think in some way Jesus saw or felt in his "spiritual sense" all of the sins humankind ever committed?
Or as the article says-he just hung on the cross as a sacrificial
atonement for our sins. He did indeed to that but was there more to it?
Lisa, you're right about Steve Camp; he's a staunch 5 point Calvinist. The differences of opinion in the article might actually come down to semantics. What attracted me to it initially was that I've recently come across some people who teach that the Lord had to suffer in Hell for our sins - which is unscriptural.
When the Bible becomes reviled
The iGod
Mac makes me take out the garbage; says it will make a man out of me.
I love men. No, not like that (well … maybe a little). I love men because they're rough, tough, practical, logical and don't mind taking out the garbage....Ode to (manly) men
So much to comment on.
Mac, can you give me more info about it being unscriptural that Jesus suffered in hell? I was raised Lutheran which teaches through the Apostle's Creed that Jesus "descended into hell". I've always wondered about it but never took time to investigate.
jib's name is Joyce?
Jim G, I agree, Grumpy ATTY, if you can hear this, would you please give your thoughts about what is happening in the financial world? My husband keeps talking about credit default swaps causing financial crisis.
And then there's this:
U.S. eyes Iranians at nuke labs
Muslim scientists invited by Clinton still employed
"Last year, federal authorities accused a Muslim engineer at the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station of illegally smuggling software codes into Iran and downloading details of control rooms, reactors and designs of the nation's largest nuclear plant."
Are we out of our minds??
Message from Beth about Geoff:
So sorry I couldn't get back to you. We were in the ER for 7 hours and I couldn't use my cell phone in there. Every time I tried to or did leave the room, someone came in with information and I missed it. I am home right now getting my stuff together and am heading back up to the hospital to spend the night.
Geoff's color has returned and his blood work is good, however, on the x-ray they have spotted a blockage around his pancreas. Please be in prayer that it will be naturally unblocked, because surgery would NOT be good for him because of his situation inside his body. They say that if it is scar tissue or adhesions, that would probably warrant surgery which is usually simple but of course not in his case. We need another miracle. PTL. I'm truly scared, but trying to keep my wits about me this time. God help us.
Love you all and thanks for all your prayers,
Beth
Mac,
Yes I've heard of that-He suffered in hell. Never saw that in the Bible either. But rather-He visited hell to show his triumph over the enemy!
That's why I wonder if that is what Piper was really alluding to or if Camp is making more out of his statement that necessary.
It just seems to me those w/a Calvinist thought process generally presume truths into what they are looking at than someone who tends to think more literally. That’s why I'm a little suspicious about how he took off on that "damned" statement.
It could be true Piper believes Jesus suffered in hell but how can one come to that conclusion unless your able to hear the whole context of the message.
The only thing Camp provides us with is that one statement but nothing surrounding it other than Camp's own presuppositions.
Deterring Those Who Are Already Dead
This is a good article written about the false notion of being able to logically works things out w/the enemy-like Ahmadinejad.
Lisa, Mac,
So the question is whether Jesus suffered in hell, not just descended. Do you agree with the Apostle's Creed that he descended? Or is your position that that is also unscriptural?
Mac,
The iGod article really hits the point.
Even hubby was very much into the iGod but slowly he's coming around.
He still has a tad of "I'm not to judge other people's beliefs & faiths-whether they are truth or not." And coming from a man who judges everything else it's quite surprising on THIS topic he's non-judgmental.
But I guess you can't judge religious truth from false when you don't have the Biblical knowledge to stand upon or know who God really is.
Anne,
The Bible says he descended or went to hell to proclaim his triumph over Satan but doesn't say anything about him "suffering" in hell.
I think it's a presumption to say that He actually "suffered" as well.
Anne
yes on the name-makes me think you think we know each other? might be. it is a small world after all (sorry prepping for the end of the month :-) )
Actually Christ technically didn't descend into hell He descended into the paradise portion of hades but that might be considered by some to be semantics although it's not since what we normally view as hell is the lake of fire and no one is there as of yet. There are some that in addition to teaching that Christ suffered in "hell", that he also lost his sinless nature when he took our sins upon himself becoming sinful like mankind.
Kathy
yes the pic of you and your hubby is the one I meant.
Jib,
Now I get to blame your "tinfoil hat" remark on my 1st UFO dream last night. It was really something. Full Color-but I always dream in color. It was Apocalyptic in nature-the 1st one I can remember. I was not scared in the dream but woke up shaking-maybe the AC was too cold?
I was in a 2story yellow house w/a bunch of other Christians. I know my kids were w/me-not sure about hubby.
Further away was a city-(tall buildings) to the North on the horizon. A dark storm blew in from that direction but 3 dark tornadoes formed & were touching down to the east. (Mostly rolling hills-not many houses)
Then I was inside my shed which has our things stored and a couple Mexican guys were in it looking around. One of them saw a faucet and asked if he could have it. I gave it do him & when we left I put a lock on the shed-the storm was getting closer.
I looked off into the horizon and saw the city was destroyed. There was some fire but mainly the tops of the buildings were windowless, twisted, looked charred.
When I was back @ the house the storm hit-one child was upstairs in bed & the other downstairs. The house was knocked off its foundation and was tilting-I was on porch looking at the city then thought to get to the youngest child since she was on the 1st story & was the closest.
I didn't see the actual tornado but the house right next door was destroyed. I realized that is where the Mexicans lived and I saw the nursery and wanted to go see if I could save the child as a crib was exposed in the rubble but the storm was still raging.
Then overhead I saw two UFO-the triangular shaped ones w/red & green lights on the bottom. They came roaring diagonally from Northeast to Southwest.
They sounded like jets. (But on the actual accounts they don't make noise.) Then I woke up.
I very rarely remember any of my dreams and to have one like this-it has to be blamed on Jib (:
Lisa, Shalom! When Jesus said, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" isn't a cry of anguish by Jesus. It's scripture. Psalm 22:1 says,
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
The Psalm, though, is a prayer. It should have been known to all the Jews at the time. It's a prayer of glorification. The psalm ends at verse 31 with,
They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
Jesus wasn't crying out in despair, he was crying out for the people to join him in prayer, a prayer that in the end proclaims His Kingship.
<><
Jib, I think you'll always be Jib to me! Thanks for you thoughts on the suffering thing.
Lisa, the tornadoes in your tinfoil hat dream remind me of Perry Stone's vision/dream with the corn rows, tornadoes, houses. BTW, did you notice in that vision the power lines? I don't think he had an interpretation of those, but my first thought was EMP. Just a wondering thought.
So, Lisa, did you replace the tinfoil like jib recommended? (You and Jib made me lol)
Jib,Anne,
Yes that another interesting fact.
The paradise portion of the hell equation. Then the "great gulf divided."
So there is hell-the space in-between (great gulf) then paradise.(where the souls of the dead went before Christ's death on the Cross.) When he died he took those souls with him to heaven and now we go directly to heaven since a "paradise" or intermediately place is no longer required. At the end of the Millennium death & hell will be thrown into the "lake of fire" forever .Rev 20:13-15 (This is a permanent & final place.)Also called the 2nd death.
But the souls in hell at the time could see the souls in paradise having a good time.(part of the punishment I guess) The story of Lazarus mentions some of this I believe.
This part is not Biblical but there are people who claim that they've been to hell w/Jesus. The purpose of showing them hell is to tell those on earth it's real as some are taught it doesn't exist. (Another one of Satan's lies) The JW's believe this.
So take that for what it's worth but if so then Jesus does visit hell on occasion for particular purposes but is not tormented as He has the power & control over it.
This Linkprovides some more descripton on hell & all it's parts & scripture to research.
You may not agree w/some of the commentary but look up the scripture and "test all things."
happy to be of service :-) in both the dream a comedy department. that's ok Anne it is one of the reasons that I don't post with my name.
I had a dream last night that as an adult I was back at Bob Jones which was now mysteriously located in Phillie just past the liberty bell and it took an hour to go across campus. If you didn't get off the elevator in time on the right floor you ended up in a pod shaped monorail car and whisked off to a fair with lots of rides which was really upsetting because I was trying to get back to my room to take and shower and go to the circus. maybe I need to rethink what I ate last night. btw it was all in color.
I also had a conscious dream the other night which was rather disturbing even after I changed the dream based on reality-I had helped a family friend hide the body of his dead wife and since I knew full well that wasn't true the second time I had the dream I changed the outcome but overall the dream remained with an underlying feel of being unsettled like something else happened in the dream that I can't remember.
Lisa
got any tinfoil I can borrow?
Anne,
I must have mentally replaced it to pull in a dream like that one!
(I am Not the Biblical/Apocalyptic dreaming type.)
I didn't see any power poles/lines.
Ooooh, yummie! Right off the bat, a new dream to interpret!
Lisa, on the UFOs, where were the red and green lights: on one side or the other; or all around the outside? Also, have you been witnessing to any Mexicans lately?
I have an interpretation ready, but I need the answers to those two questions before I can tell you.
<><
Jib, Shalom! How has the theology viewpoint at Bob Jones University been lately? I recall last year at this time people talking about how different Christian colleges were losing their Orthodox Christian views. IF they're focusing more on political feelings (being American) rather than political correctness, that could account for it being in Philly; and if their theology is becoming more liberal, that could explain the carnival.
As for the family friend, it could be that you sense something you did helped his marriage to die. Then again, DID you help bury his wife? (If so, I want the rights to your story.)
Remember: friends help you move. REAL friends help you move bodies.
<><
nope different family friend than the one I dreamed about. the one I dreamed about was actually a friend of my father and honorary uncle to me and as I was dreaming I realised in the middle of the dream that I must be dreaming as I had just spoken to him that evening and his wife was very much alive. the friend with all the problems with his ex wife is someone my age and was hubby's friend from work and our best man. I did sense however long before that marriage ended that it was going to end as his wife was less than compassionate shall we say about the difficulties he was having at that time and you correctly surmise that I said nothing to him or to her at that time (didn't think it was my place to do so and thought perhaps I was reading the situation wrong. since they didn't actually get the divorce until 2 or 3 years later I had decided by that time I was wrong.)
regarding BJU-define leaving orthodoxy. In so far as I know they are still very sound theologically. Some of their stances which they took earlier and claimed were bibically based surprise surprise weren't biblically based and they have fallen by the way side (I believe they have dramatically relaxed their stance on interracial dating and marriage). I do know from the sites that Mac has listed as discernment sites they are consistently listed as not being part of the emergent church stuff, contemplative mysticism etc. I think they still practice tertiary separation however (they don't associate with people who associate with people who associate with liberal theologians etc.). They consider both where I got my degree (I transferred out to a different school) and Liberty to be liberal schools and this was long before either my school or liberty got involved with the contemplative/emergent stuff.
Great pictures
Jim,
The lights were on one side & the other on the bottom. I think I've recently seen a picture of this triangular shaped UFO. They are not the common round type.
Mexico has been on my mind. It started w/the beheadings we were discussing-then an old fiancé out of the blue emailed me last week.
He's not what you would consider a typical "Mexican" (spanish looking) but he was raised in Tijuana and was telling me he now lives there w/his family in a "big house overlooking all the chaos."
So I was asking him what the scoop was since we have been discussing it here-and he said that it's nuts as they have been kidnapping people like crazy.
So yes-I did use that opportunity to witness to him and emailed him some links as well.
The Mexicans in my dream looked like the typical brown skinned Indian type which is most common in CA. Most of them are either gardeners or in construction jobs.
There are many where I live in CA as they walk around doing yard work.They stay for awhile & send the money back to Mexico.
The gardeners here in TN are the same type & I just saw them yesterday as well.
I was going to ask this anyway- Have any of you here been contacted by past friends lately?
I've had three contact me within the 3 weeks. Witnessed to every one of them. (:
But I've had this happen before in life where suddenly many old friends call to re-connect.
Here are some more great pictures of M A I T R E Y A Fans and others.
Shalom, all! With the discussion of Jesus' cry on the cross, I thought I'd post Psalm 22:
1 For the leader; according to "The deer of the dawn." A psalm of David.
2 My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?
3 My God, I call by day, but you do not answer; by night, but I have no relief.
4 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the glory of Israel.
5 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted and you rescued them.
6 To you they cried out and they escaped; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
7 But I am a worm, hardly human, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
8 All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me:
9 "You relied on the LORD--let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you."
10 Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother's breast.
11 Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.
12 Do not stay far from me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help.
13 Many bulls surround me; fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me.
14 They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar.
15 Like water my life drains away; all my bones grow soft. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me.
16 As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me in the dust of death.
17 Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me. So wasted are my hands and feet
18 that I can count all my bones. They stare at me and gloat;
19 they divide my garments among them; for my clothing they cast lots.
20 But you, LORD, do not stay far off; my strength, come quickly to help me.
21 Deliver me from the sword, my forlorn life from the teeth of the dog.
22 Save me from the lion's mouth, my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.
23 Then I will proclaim your name to the assembly; in the community I will praise you:
24 "You who fear the LORD, give praise! All descendants of Jacob, give honor; show reverence, all descendants of Israel!
25 For God has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch, Did not turn away from me, but heard me when I cried out.
26 I will offer praise in the great assembly; my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him.
27 The poor will eat their fill; those who seek the LORD will offer praise. May your hearts enjoy life forever!"
28 All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the LORD; All the families of nations will bow low before you.
29 For kingship belongs to the LORD, the ruler over the nations.
30 All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
31 And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.
32 The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.
<><
Little Girl Pleads Todd Bentley not to Touch Her-She's Scared
Let's pray for this little girl. Who know what's in her household now w/her parents being so foolish.
You guys might have to come to my rescue-I may have watched one too many Todd Bentley videos.This is REALLY BAD as this "Dance" one made me laugh.
I guess this bizarre Tribal Dance is the norm there.
I had a flashback to Ancient Egypt or some kind of pagan worship. At the end with her sunken eyes-she does some kind of sword movement which appears to turn into a gun shooting the congregation.
Holy,Holy,Holy, is our God Almighty! Oh my, I never thought I would see the day and witness something as sick and demented as this whole psuedo revival.
Come Lord Jesus! I so look forward to the day when we're with our King of King & Lord of Lords.
Lisa, Shalom! Here's my interpretation (remember -- dreams are often puny, full of puns. Maybe that's why I like interpreting them.):
You're in a two-story yellow house. Two stories means it's large, a house with many rooms. The house is yellow. Yellow is the color of the sun; sun = Son.
The house is filled with Christians. You know your kids are with you, but you're not sure about your husband (i.e., you're not sure if your husband is with the Christians, living in the Son in the house with many rooms.)
The storm starts in the city to the north. In America bad storms often come from the North, from where it's cold. The three tornadoes (violent, confusing storms) are coming from the East. You suddenly find yourself in your shed, where you store your excess things that you can't keep in your house. The Mexicans in there don't take any of your excess (which would be destroyed in the storm anyway), instead, the one person asks for a faucet. Faucets in a house are used for water. You don't just give him water, you give him the source of water. Then you lock up your excesses to try to protect them from the coming storm.
You see the storm has destroyed the city, before it has reached you and your house. When it does reach your house, it doesn't destroy it, but it does knock it off the foundation (damaged, but not destroyed). The house next door with the Mexicans is destroyed, except for the children in the crib.
Then the UFOs go overhead. I wanted to ask specifically about this and about the lights because I wanted to see if this was a UFO or a B-2 bomber. If there are just two colored lights (or set of lights) on the object (red lights on the craft's left side, green lights on the craft's right side) then that matches the standard running lights on aircraft (boats, too, BTW). There were many sightings of "triangular aircraft" around Area 51 in the mid-80s; now it's generally recognized that those sightings were (most likely) test flights of B-2 prototypes. The B-2 is the "bat-winged" flying-wing aircraft. If you don't look carefully, from underneath it looks like a triangle. And yes, if it's flying low enough, you WOULD hear the jet roar.
The B-2 is a bomber. If it's flying low enough that you hear the jet roar, that's not a good sign. It's trying to fly below the enemy's radar. During the war in Kosovo, the Allies had a problem because they would fly their stealth aircraft under the enemy's radar; but the local sympathizers would hear the jets and call their contacts in Kosovo to warn them. If they're doing this over American territory, then it means the enemy has established a beachhead.
<><
This is my last one. Bentley says a "seer" has told him there is a war in the sprit realm with "witches & worlocks" trying to close his PORTAL to heaven. Then by the end he says "the people who don't understand" the supernatural are fighting against us. I have to keep telling my testimony in order to keep the access.
So basically the truth seeking Christians are the "witches & warlocks." It appears he's feeling the heat now. (Not that it will dissuade them)
Jim C.
That's quite interesting. It very well could have been a B-2 Bomber.
I think they even have a newer one out now with a triange shape.
And they definately sounded like a jet & were large in size-meaning flying quite low & fast. Right after they went out of site is when I woke up.
WOW! I don't know how many of you have been keeping track of this stuff, or if you even care, but there are some BIG changes coming around in the Protestant world.
First of all, there was no compromise made in the Church of England and the Anglican Communion (which includes the Episcopal Church) over the question of ordaining female bishops: female bishops WILL be ordained.
Church turmoil over women bishops
This has led to groups of Anglican bishops coming to Rome for secret talks, presumably on how Traditional Anglicans can move over to the Roman Catholic Church. While I don't believe this will result in the destruction of the Anglican Church, I DO believe that what staggers forth from the wreckage will bear little relation to the church that existed only a generation ago.
Second, I just read this report on a vote taken at the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church of the USA (PCUSA):
Presbyterian vote to eliminate standards of chastity and fidelity faces critics
To quote from the article:
Reaction continues to the decisions of the 218th General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA), which took place between June 21 and June 28. The assembly nullified proscriptions against sexual behavior outside of marriage and called for a vote to delete the church’s constitutional standard requiring fidelity in marriage and chastity in singleness. It also initiated a process that could remove mention of the Bible’s prohibition against homosexuality form the Heidelberg Catechism.
The moves are seen by some as an attempt to clear a path for the eventual ordination of practicing homosexuals to the church offices of deacon, elder, or minister.
Further, the assembly authorized the creation of a $2 million legal fund to litigate against churches which seek to transfer to other Reformed denominations while retaining their property.
It's interesting that they're focusing more on what to do with church property WHEN congregations want to leave than fixing the problems that are causing the congregations to leave in the first place.
<><
well it will be interesting to see what happens then with my church. the PCUSA church that I go to is part of the confessing movement which states marriage is one man, one woman. we'll see. Our pastor seems quite sound all things considered but if we don't pull out of the PCUSA if this passes guess we'll be church shopping.
I meant to post this last night.
"Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?"
Lisa, even more disturbing than Bentley's videos are his teachings and this angel figure he has (Emma).
New article by Jack Kelley.
The Tribulation's Purpose Vs. The Church's Nature
The McBoycott
Man claims to know source of 'Phoenix Lights' UFO sighting
Praying, Nate. May God bless you.
HI Nate,
I agree...Tony Snow's passing away is a real loss for this world. Really sad.
We hope and pray you will have a good and safe trip!
Lori - That's great news about uncle Bob's doing so well with his book. It sounds like he's doing a great job at marketing (or you have a really big family) haha
Also, thanks for the update about Geoff. Sounds as though things are progressing poorly. I will continue praying.
Nate - I pray you have a safe trip, learn much & have fun doing so!
Yes, it's very sad about Tony Snow :-(
Lisa - Ya be keeping me busy, missy! :-) Those Bentley videos - very disturbing (especially the one with the little girls)
Jib - Praying for your foot!
Mac - Thanks for all the links.
"Ode to (Manly) Men" was great! I want to go live where the author lives.
I sent the McBoycott out via email to as many people I could think of.
Jim C.
That is a great example of why we should not follow doctrines of men but stick explicatively to the Bible
Who are they to delete God's commands out of the scripture? And these are REALLY obvious. They have lost all FEAR OF THE LORD.
Whenever these large Church bodies marry into a political agenda it always leads to compromise.
On a smaller scale Billy Graham is a classic example. I don't know if he was always OSAS or not. (Have to check into that one) But it's easy to see how having that theology could lead one to have much less "fear of the Lord" since there is virtually no accountability for ones actions.(No matter what you do you will not be judged for it.)
If you loose that "fear" then Billy Graham for example-gets drawn to politics and in order keep that relationship open-has got to compromise his beliefs.There is just too much pressure and seduction. He's almost stated that all roads lead to the same place at this point in his life.
Who do the presidents court? The Pope & Billy Graham.
Just a question for you Jim. If the Pope were to go down the same road and state "all roads lead to the same outcome" what would you do? Could you ever abandon the Catholic faith?
Is there anything he could say or do in which you would leave?
My intention is not to make you sweat but just wanted to pose that question.
As you know I'm the direct type (:
Why should I help the poor?
Oh, the joys of those who are kind to the poor. The Lord rescues them in times of trouble. The Lord protects them and keeps them alive. He gives them prosperity and rescues them from their enemies. The Lord nurses them when they are sick and eases their pain and discomfort.
Psalm 41:1-3 NLT
He will rescue the poor when they cry to him, he will help the oppressed, who have no one to defend them. He feels pity for the weak and the needy, and he will rescue them. He will save them from oppression and from violence, for their lives are precious to him.
Psalm 72:12-14 NLT
A greedy person tries to get rich quick, but it only leads to poverty. Greed causes fighting; trusting in the Lord leads to prosperity. Whoever gives to the poor will lack nothing. But a curse will come upon those who close their eyes to poverty.
Proverbs 28:22,25,27 NLT
To be poor means that something is lacking from our life.
The Bible focuses primarily on two kinds of poverty—people who are in need of basic necessities (like food and clothing) and people who are in need of God (for they lack the Holy Spirit's presence in their life). We are called—commanded—to help both of these kinds of people as much as we possibly can.
Aim at Heaven and you will get Earth thrown in. Aim at Earth and you get neither.
-C.S. Lewis
Mac,
That's a good article on the sightings.
From what I can find out the govt. does have secrete technology and new aircraft so it very could well have been govt related.
What the author does not know/or say is that the original source of this technology was from the Alien spacecrafts themselves.
There is a huge counter-cover-up on UFO sightings & abduction experiences. Whenever someone comes forth with information-the govt. hires a skeptic to counter their claims. Citizens have even been threatened to keep their mouths shut who have witnessed these things.
There is more & more coming out about this subject so it's only a matter of time with something will pop. Other counties have been releasing their files lately.
Right now the govt. may have to release some of their covert operations just to keep this "alien" subject at bay.
We have seen actual pictures of these creatures and dead corpses. What more do we need for proof?
It's some weird stuff but so is the supernatural to our human earthbound mindset.As Christians we know there is another world in the spiritual realm but look how we react when it collides with our perception of human existence.
If we think this is weird just wait until we are in heaven and see the four living creatures. WOW.
(Don't they have alot of eyeballs?)
Lisa,
The following statement you made is not true, if I understand what you are saying!
"On a smaller scale Billy Graham is a classic example. I don't know if he was always OSAS or not. (Have to check into that one) But it's easy to see how having that theology could lead one to have much less "fear of the Lord" since there is virtually no accountability for ones actions.(No matter what you do you will not be judged for it.)"
Billy Graham does not teach/preach 'no accountability' nor do any OSAS believers I know or have read believe 'no accountability.'
Believe me....when a believer strays from the faith (for by grace are you saved through faith!!!!!!),...that believer is held accountable by God....not for his eternal security for that is ETERNAL...but rather that believer will reap unto himself on earth repercussions of that which he/she has sown to sin. Then when he/she gets to Heaven and stands at the BEMA Seat, he/she will understand fully what his/her loss of heavenly rewards are as a result of his/her good works or lack therof here on earth.
Those who teach there is no accountability in the teaching of OSAS truly do not understand just how precious the Blood of Jesus is that He willingly poured out at Calvary for sinners, nor do they understand the completeness of the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary. Such people need to be very careful of their words, for 'every idle word' they have spoken will be brought to their remembrance when they stand before the Lord.
I believe assuredly that the Bible - God's Word - teaches OSAS (as many used these initials), but it is to be understood in the context that when a person comes to BELIEVE in JESUS CHRIST and begins to TRUST in Him, nothing can separate that person from Jesus Christ - NOTHING! If you have a child, you have the best example of such a relationship. No matter how rebellious and unloving and hateful a child becomes, that child is NEVER NOT your child. Even should that child die physically - (and that sometimes happens when a believer continues in rebellion or waywardness and does not heed the wooing back of the Holy Spirit) - your child still your child - so also is the believer that strays from living as he/she should because of what Christ has done for him/her. His child is eternally His child. We may be disobedient at times (Aren't we all?), we may grieve His Spirit, we may cause Him shame, but He never 'cuts us loose.' Such is the matchless grace and eternal love of our God!
A scripture that I refer to often is found in II Peter 1:1-11, especially verses 5-11. When a person does not grow and mature in those named Christ-like characteristics, - For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
There is no one who can be saved on his/her own nor live good enough to stay saved on his/her own. Without Jesus Christ DOING IT ALL-!!!!-there is NO HOPE for any of us!!!
Lisa, I'm not promoting my blog, but please go to my blog and click on the diagram to enlarge it, then print it and see if it helps to explain where I am coming from.
What a mighty God we serve!
Blessings to all! (Mary)
Mary,
"There is no one who can be saved on his/her own nor live good enough to stay saved on his/her own. Without Jesus Christ DOING IT ALL-!!!!-there is NO HOPE for any of us!!!"
I think we all agree on that point here.
I'll read your blog.
We had a good sermon today about the "mystery" of the New Testament.
(Read Colossians 1)
The mystery revealed how Christ actually dwells in us and works within our hearts to transform us into His image. This is done through full submission to Him.
It's done by Him and for Him.
I didn't know this part. In the Old Testament it always stated that God was "with us." Then when Christ died the word changed to "Christ in us."
Now this is what the pastor stated that struck a chord in understanding the difference:
Many Christians are still living parallel to God. They are with Him but not letting Christ live "in" them and through them. Therefore they are trying to obey His commands and live a holy life by their own will. As we all know this does not last long and we are surely to fail having our lives transformed by living for Him through our own power.
This is not something that God forces us to do but rather requests us to submit fully to Him by faith so He can supernaturally transform our lives.
Again can we agree that this is not done by our own works? It's through the power of Christ that it's possible.
The person living "parallel" and with God is the one who's trying to live a Christ like life by their own will & their own works.
The pastor made the remark that he believes these "parallel" people are also saved but are missing the whole point of what Christ came to do for us and will not grow in spiritual maturity if they remain "as is."
Interesting he brought up Rev 3:20.
"I stand at the door & knock....open the door....I will come in to him...
He used this in reference to "Christ in us" or "Abiding in us." He knocks,we let Him in.He comes in. Then He's in us.
He mentions Christ is knocking but we need to let Him in. If He's not in then He's out of us.
(Now he did not bring up the entire context of church of Laodiceans in which since they are Lukewarm He will vomit them out of His mouth but that's a different story. Obviously Christ is not "in them" and that's why he's knocking in the first place.)
Our pastor skipped right over Collossians1:19-23. Part of it says:... "to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-(if indeed) you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard.....
Which begs to question what IF you don't continue? If it's impossible not to continue then what is Paul warning against?
Anyway, this is a great discussion & I really believe the Holy Spirit is bringing it to our attention @ this point in time for a reason. I truly look forward to gaining greater understanding in these matters.
Our pastor is working on this topic of "Christ in us" for some weeks to come. He's not setting a time frame to end it.
For any interested I'll post the link to this particular sermon. I don't think anything he said would offend an OSAS person.
He also gave a great example of a Methodist pastor who after years & much success finally realized that he was missing out on something. That he was with Christ but Christ was not in him. After he "got it" his life dramatically changed & was truly blessed.
bloodbought;
Thank you for your comment:
"His child is eternally His child. We may be disobedient at times (Aren't we all?), we may grieve His Spirit, we may cause Him shame, but He never 'cuts us loose.' Such is the matchless grace and eternal love of our God!
Those who teach there is no accountability in the teaching of OSAS truly do not understand just how precious the Blood of Jesus is that He willingly poured out at Calvary for sinners, nor do they understand the completeness of the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary."
Amen and Amen!!
Maranatha!
After dissecting Jack Kelly's Tribulation Purpose I have a couple comments.
I agree with his stated purpose of the "Tribulation" except for us Pre-Tribs he's missing something.
If you’re pre-wrath then the entire Church is spared from the "Great" Tribulation portion and everyone goes at once. So we have one lump. All the Christians & those who come to Christ during this period.
If your pre-Trib his view poses somewhat of a problem. There are people who come to a saving faith in Christ that are not spared from the Tribulation. Who are these people? Are they only unbelievers? Or could they be professed Christians? In the 7Churches the professed Christians are not saved from the hour of trial unless they change their tune. And personally I believe it's a combination of the two who remain during the Tribulation.
So yes, while I believe the Tribulation's purpose is mainly for Israel's purification we also know there will be many Christians here during this time period. Could it not also be for their purification as well?
Revelation 3:10
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."
The hour of trial is the Tribulation. What is its purpose?
To test everyone on the earth-(who is not "kept" from the hour of trial.) So to me that includes Jews,Nations,unbelievers & Christians who are all present.
So when Kelly says this:” I have recently noticed a resurgence of the view that not all Christians will inherit eternal life with the Lord, but only those judged worthy by their works."
If there is a resurgence I wonder why suddenly there is one? Could it be that someone is trying to tell us something since we may possibly be on the verge of the rapture? And I don't know who thinks they are judged worthy (or meaning saved) by their works except for possibly Catholics? (Jim C is that true?-I think you had answered this before & it may just be a misconception)
Rather I think some Christians are becoming aware that not all those who proclaim to be Christians will be raptured as evidence particularly in the letters to the 7 Churches in Revelation. Everyone in these Churches were professed Christians & not everybody was to be saved from the Tribulation.
And that is what Jack Kelly is most likely bothered by.
So what does he state? Something completely unbiblical in his rebuttal. We all know we are not saved by our own works or Christ came for nothing.
Luke 21:36 (KJV)
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
This one is from the Greek interlinear:
"Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
So whatever our viewpoint is on this topic-should we not all include this in our prayers?
By the sounds of it many people believe virtually the entire United States of America is going to be raptured before the Tribulation. Wasn't it around 85% of the population who proclaim to believe in God & Christ @ least to some degree? They may not be living a life which reflects a diciple of Christ but they believe in Him never-the-less. So the only thing they miss out on is what rewards are given. They'll have a simple crown w/o all the extras & a mansion with less square footage.
(the latter coming from my own vivid imagination)
For those willing to answer.
Do you think if Todd Bentley died today he would have a saving faith?
He apparently believes in Christ.
Granted we don't personally know but what does the Bible say about someone like him?
lisa;
Here is another answer from Jack Kelley about the church and purification. Maybe it will give some clarification to his position on the Church and trib??
QUOTE "Those who teach that the Church needs purification simply do not understand what happened at the cross, and are questioning the sufficiency of the Lord's death. The purification process they usually refer to is the Great Tribulation. This view is one of the consequences of adopting the replacement theology heresy, wherein the Church has replaced Israel in God's plan.
The Great Tribulation is coming for two reasons, according to Jeremiah 30:1-11. The first is to completely destroy all the nations where Israel has been scattered, and the second is to purify Israel. If you believe that the Church has inherited God's promises to Israel, then you're stuck with the Great Tribulation.
When He said, "It is finished," (John 19:30) Jesus was referring to the work of purifying the Church. Paul agreed saying that anyone who is in Christ is a new creation, the old has gone and the new has come. (2 Cor. 5:17) This promise is in the past perfect tense meaning it is already true in God's eyes. In Ephesians 2:6 Paul wrote that we're already seated in the Heavenlies with Christ as a demonstration of God's grace. The Church doesn't need purification." END QUOTE
Also, some teach that the trib saints are not part of the Church and have a different destiny. Some are the martyrs under the altar Rev 6:9.
Regarding Todd Bentley; I think he follows another Christ as far as I can tell from what is said about him. He doesn't seem to be taking correction from God's word and is going his own way.
1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Maranatha!
GT...it's always so nice to see you and your comments.
Mary...great explanation.
Lisa, sounds like your minister is teaching sound doctrine and that you are understanding it. From what I recall you have not been a Christian for too long?
Somewhere or other in the BIble it says something about even the devil knowing that Jesus is the Christ...so a saving grace is more than just knowing that He is the Christ.
A saving grace would include things along the line of accepting His sacrifice for our own personal lives, and trusting Him to live thru us, etc.
Shalom, all! The audio on this video is rather soft, and I can't figure out if the people are clapping in support of the protester or trying to get him to shut up.
Gay US bishop heckled in UK
Gene Robinson is from the state next to where I live and he has caused quite a stir.
The reality is that there are lots of gay people religious leadership positions...ministers, priests, brothers, etc.
Some are more open about it than others.
Personally, it does not seem right to me for a gay person to be in a leadership position within a church....and if they are they should definitely not be pushing for gay rights at the pulpit.
But I also wonder...if being gay is any "worse" than being, let's say, a glutton.
All I know is that we are in a fallen world, and that He is reclaiming this world back to Himself. Thank God!
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Lisa, Shalom! You wrote:
Just a question for you Jim. If the Pope were to go down the same road and state "all roads lead to the same outcome" what would you do? Could you ever abandon the Catholic faith?
Is there anything he could say or do in which you would leave?
That is actually a VERY good question, or set of questions, and it's going to take some time and space to answer properly.
First, the idea that "all roads lead to heaven" is one that Catholics have been accused of in the past. It's a misunderstanding of how Catholics treat the idea of what happened/happens to the people who died before Christ and who die today having never known Christ. Simply put, if the Catholics err in this matter, we are erring on the side of mercy.
One of the things we are taught as Catholics is that belief in Jesus as the Christ is a gift from G_D. Another thing we are taught is that Jesus is the only way to heaven. So what happens when the gift of belief in Jesus has been withheld from a person, either through time (i.e., having been born in Germany in 300 BC) or circumstance (born in modern-day India to a good Hindu family)? We believe that G_D, in His Mercy, will not deny Heaven to anyone who truly seeks to know Him. If the person follows Natural Law (which are the set of rules that G_D has imprinted on people and have been a part of every single human culture -- do not steal, do not murder, etc.) and truly seeks to know and understand G_D, then this is a person that G_D WOULD have given the gift of faith if it were possible, and this person -- through and because of the Sacrifice of Jesus -- can be admitted to Heaven.
This is similar to the Noahide Laws that were mentioned here a few weeks ago -- laws that non-Jews could follow to worship the One True G_D. NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT A FREE PASS! It is MUCH more difficult to know and understand G_D and to follow His Natural Laws for people without knowledge of Jesus. But, G_D knows what is in a person's heart, He knows who truly wants to Know Him, and as I said, I don't believe G_D would cut off so many people in history without providing some way of rescuing them. And this is DEFINITELY NOT an "all roads lead to heaven" sort of theology.
Second, I don't believe this sort of thing would ever happen with a validly-elected Pope. Now I need to explain THAT!
Simply put, Catholics believe that when Jesus said to Cephas (which is Rock in Aramaic), "You are Rock, and upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it," it means that the Bishop of Rome is protected by the Holy Spirit so that he can't proclaim anything that is not part of the Faith. What he says and does in his personal life is something else -- he is human and prone to human errors. But when it comes to leading the flock, G_D will not let this shepherd fail.
This applies, though, only to the TRUE Pope -- the one who is legally and validly elected by the College of Cardinals to fill the Shoes of the Fisherman. And herein lies the problem. The rules for electing the Pope were changed a few years ago in order to increase security.
Whereas previous Constitutions allowed the Conclave to be moved if necessary, when the most recent revision was issued, for reasons of security the elections MUST take place in Vatican City, MUST take place within the Sistine Chapel, and MUST start no later than 20 days after the death of the Pope. This makes it much easier to seal the place off and keep people from bugging it. However, what happens if, for some reason, Vatican City is not available? What if there is an Islamic invasion of Italy (as some prophecies might indicate)? What if someone sets off a dirty nuke in Vatican Square? The Conclave MUST meet no later than 20 days after the death of the Pope. What if they can't?
This opens the possibility to an invalidly-elected Pope; one who holds the title but is not the true Pope. To me the first clue would be issuing statements such as "all roads lead to heaven"; the proof that he is not the true pope would be if he issued changes in the ceremony of the Mass -- changes that would make the Consecration of the Bread and Wine invalid. To a Catholic, this would be the "Abomination of Desolation."
At this point I would not "leave the Church". I would find a group practicing the old formula and begin worshiping with them. Frankly, I don't know what that would make me -- a renegade or a traditionalist. I can only pray that I remain true to Him who saved me.
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Joel has a new post up.
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Mary
potent words and excellent.
to your words I would add
Phl 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
I interpret this verse as supporting eternal security. I have been praying about it and see the verse as direct from God. others may not but that is their privilege.
Our pastor preached on unity and said some interesting things on a whole host of subjects.
I could tell he is amillennialist in his eschatology from his comments about the current times although he recognizes that the times are perilous.
He also preached on unity in the church and commented that while he might disagree with someone's lifestyle choices which we would label as wrong, labeled correctly wrong, he felt we should be compassionate and try to understand what lead them to make the choices for their current lifestyle. He then said he rather felt that sometimes he needed to apologize for the national PCUSA. I have mentioned that we are a confessing movement church within the PCUSA but after this morning sermon not so sure we'll stay that way. Two of the tenets are Christ only way (he is very evangelistic which is great) and marriage between one man and one woman is the only relationship via which intimacy is appropriate (not so sure what his stance is on this after this morning sermon). It would be difficult to leave our church but really if we cease to be a confessing movement church and agree that welcome practicing homosexuals into leadership positions and/or recognize their relationships with some sort of ceremony is appropriate I think we'll have to go elsewhere.
I think God has stronger feelings on sexual sins than other sins-just an impression. I do know that the Bible translators of
the KJV use the word abomination in relation to homosexuality as well as other sexual perversions (eg Lev 18:22,Lev 20:33). I was unable to find the same word applied to gluttony. The NIV uses the word "detestable"
as an interesting thought-the second part of Joel's last post talks about a Jewish historian who is going to give a talk on the Gabriel Revelation and links to Jesus and Christianity. It strongly sounded from the way Joel wrote that part of his post that this guy might actually be going to say that Christ "fits the bill" as it were of the Jewish Messiah. If you all will recall the Tsion Ben Judah character did just that I think at a conference shortly after the rapture in the Left Behind books. Perhaps in this case the presentation will be made and in conjunction with Gog and Magog many will come to know Christ.
Gene Robinson, as a "man of God", should pay particular attention to Jas 3:1 given what he preaches.
Jas 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
They escorted the heckler out of the church but in accepting Robinson's lifestyle they did that to the Lord as well. I can't help but admire the man's actions, assuming his motives were sincere. He basically told them the truth.
I would leave you with this thought provoking illustration that our pastor provided this morning.
A christian visited a castle home in Europe and found that the grounds as well as the castle were maintained in pristine condition. Since it was known that the master of the castle hadn't stepped foot in the dwelling for 12 years he was a bit mystified at the beauty etc of the place and inquired of the caretaker.
This place is amazing that you have kept it up so well in light of the fact that your employer hasn't been here in 12 years-are you expecting him tomorrow? To which the caretaker replied
"No, today"
Do we live our lives like we are expecting Christ tomorrow or today?
Interesting thoughts, Jib. Maybe Tim LaHaye isn't a "false prophet" after all ;-)
well if Jews are to be the evangelists of the Trib time then there would have to be some talks regarding this subject and it would perhaps be more effective if done in conjunction with something obviously supernatural and clearly from God. not saying that this particular conference will be in conjunction with anything but it stands to reason that something like it might.
God's wrath is to purify Israel and for the destruction of the unbelieving nations, not the Great Tribulation. It is a "great" time of trouble because believers and Jews alike are being slaughtered. God doesn't cut His wrath short, but He does cut the Great Tribulation short for His children. You get two plugs for prewrath this month, that is, the correct understanding of prewrath!
Mary, I ditto gt's dual Amens!
Joyce,
Phil. 1:6 absolutely teaches eternal security! (As does Romans 8!)
The first qualification listed for an elder is one who is "blameless". (1 Tim. 3) No overt, flagrant sin can mar the life of one who must be an example for those whom he is leading. Homosexuality would come under flagrant sin and Romans 1 is clear that God's wrath will be revealed from heaven against this type of ungodliness.
I don't believe the Great Tribulation is cut shorter than the 3.5 years stated in the Bible for a few reasons. Here’s one liguistic study I found some time ago:
Mathew 24:15-22. Verse 22”
And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved, but for the elect’s
sake, those days will be shortened.”
Mathew 24:15-22. Verse 22”Greek Interlinear:
“And except those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved, but on account of the
chosen, those days will be cut short.
Mark 13:20
And unless THE LORD shortened those days, no flesh would be saved, but on account
of the chosen whom HE chose, HE shortened the days.
EkoloBOsev=shortend. Verb-indicative-aorist-passive-third person plural.
Thayers p.353: to cut, mulitate.
Strongs 2856.
Thus by N.T. times, to shorten, abridge, curtail. Mt.24:22, Mk.13:20.
Latin Vulgate: Brevio (brewio)
Renald Showers, in his book “Maranatha, our LORD, Come!” p. 51,
“… the two verbs translated “had shortened” and “hath shortened” in the Mark
passage and the verb translated “should be shortened” in the Mathew passage are
all in the aorist tense and indicative mood with the augment. Aorist verbs have no time significance except when they are in the indicative mood with the augment. That form is used to express past time.”
To study the augment, see “A Grammar of The Greek N.T. by Dr. A.T. Robertson
p.365”. Thus the days were already shortened to be what we then read them to be in THE BIBLE. The day itself is not shorter, but the days of the judgement of GOD that will come on the entire earth were already shortened by GOD in the past, else no flesh would have been saved. But for the elect, the days of judgement were shortened; the length of the time period of judgement was already shortened by GOD to be just what we read in
THE BIBLE.
I agree with much of what has been said by my brothers and sisters in Christ here who hold to the OSAS position.
Thank you for taking the time to graciously and earnestly express your understanding of God's saving grace in our lives.
Unity in the body of Christ is important of course. It brings to mind the admonition, "in essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."
I think it's healthy for us to honestly strive to understand each other and not simply focus on defending our current position. The Holy Spirit can speak to us through each other if we let Him. If I have embraced a doctrine that is not true and does not align properly with God's Word, I want the Lord to show me and I want to abandon it. I assume we all feel that way.
Grany,
Thanks for the thoughtful comments regarding OSAS you posted on July 9, 2008 @ 2:07 PM and also those posted @6:59 PM. I definitely agree with you that "...wrong doctrine and teaching needs to be exposed and relegated to the Potters House for reshaping and/or discarding."
Mary (aka blood bought),
Thanks for the thoughtful post on OSAS too. I checked out your chart. I think it is interesting and backs up the OSAS position but I honestly would draw it a bit differently and more simply based upon what I see in God's Word.
In Christ, we are secure and saved.
Outside of Christ (whether before placing our faith in Him for the first time or after, we are neither secure nor saved). If our unfaithfulness had no bearing on our salvation, then EVERYONE would be saved and secure. Nobody would go to hell. Afterall, when Christ died on the cross, he paid for the sins of all (past, present, and future). Salvation is appropriated through identifying with Christ's death and resurrection. It is a faith that abides, perseveres, and ultimately overcomes. Clearly not all who start continue to abide. Not all persevere. Not all overcome. Apostacy is a falling away from Christ. You can't fall away from a faith that never was. That's simply illogical. Falling away implies that a person once was in Christ.
Phil. 1:6
Jib, I'm glad you added this Scripture. Here's how I see it:
Many who have appealed to Philippians 1:6 in defense of the doctrine of unconditional security seem completely to have ignored the immediate context (and the larger context, as well). Consider verse 7: "It is right for me to think this of you all" (i.e. that God's perfecting work in them would continue until the day of Christ) because they were standing fast with Paul in the defense and confirmation of the Gospel in the face of growing persecution which, even then, left Paul in bonds. Again, the steadfastness of their fellowship in the Gospel in the past (v.5), as Meyer declares
...forms also the ground of [Paul's] just confidence for the future...[Their fellowship in the Gospel], from the first day unitl now, is that which alone can warrant and justify [Paul's] confidence for the future.
...That which [God] has begun He will complete, namely by further operations of His grace. The idea of resistence to this grace, as a human possibility, is not thereby excluded; but Paul has not to fear this on the part of his Philippian converts, as he formerly had in the case of the Galations (Gal. i. 6, iii. 3).
The faithfulness of God is beyond question. but the faith and faithfulness of men (the two are inseperably involved, according to the Scriptures) is quite another matter.
Robert Shank, Life in the Son, page 106.
Jim G.
Do I understand the OSAS position correctly?
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom. 2:7
OSAS position: If by chance you don’t persist, don’t worry. He’ll still give you eternal life. Your rewards won't be as great, but your salvation is secure.
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. Rom. 6:22
OSAS position: Even if you later resist God and the benefit you reap does not lead to holiness, the result is still eternal life.
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Gal. 6:8
OSAS position: The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will NOT reap destruction as long as he confessed Christ as Lord and Savior and sincerely believed at some point in his or her past.
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 1 John 3:15
OSAS position: The above only applies to folks who have never asked Christ into their hearts. It doesn’t really mean “anyone.”
Jim G.
Language warning...one word may offend.
The fowl atheist
Someone to count on
Understand, therefore, that the Lord your God is indeed God. He is the faithful God who keeps his covenant for a thousand generations and constantly loves those who love him and obey his commands.
Deuteronomy 7:9 NLT
The Lord is faithful; he will make you strong and guard you from the evil one.
2 Thessalonians 3:3 NLT
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8 NLT
"You can count on me—I will never let you down." That is faithfulness. Husbands and wives vow on their wedding day to be faithful to one another, devoted and committed to one another in all area of marriage. It is a vow to be with one's mate, to stay with one's mate, and to build up one's mate. Again and again throughout the Bible, God holds faithfulness up as one of his foundational qualities and a foundation quality he expects from his people. There is nothing like the faithfulness of a mate, friends and family, and God to build our sense of security.
My thoughts for the morning after reading the posts denouncing the truth regarding "OSAS."
My comments this morning are: "So...since you came to believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son who laid aside His glory in Heaven and willingly came to earth and was born to a young woman of God's choosing, grew into manhood for the express purpose of being the necessary Sacrifice that would once for all time be Sufficient as deemed by God Almighty to satisfy His Father - and ALL THIS just so that man MIGHT be forgiven and might have eternal life...and you're confessing that since having come to know this and believe on Jesus Christ for salvation, you have never sinned, or sinned 'big' enough, or 'bad' enough, or for 'long' enough OR that you know that you won't ever sin, or sin 'big' enough, or 'bad' enough, or for 'long' enough? Where is your assurance that you are saved, that you now have eternal life? And just what is the meaning of 'eternal?' And when does this eternal life come? At death? So then I understand the thinking to be that a believer can't truly know, not for sure, that he really has eternal life and will live forever in Heaven. If anyone's eternal life depends on anything that one has to do to get it or to keep it, then IMO...it was needless for the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ to have to do what He did and it was cruel for God to require this of His Son."
No!!!!!!!!! He did what He did because this was THE ONLY WAY man could be saved and come back to God. He did it all so that by believing in His Son Jesus, man might be forgiven...be saved and have eternal life.
By the way, my comments are not to defend what is being referred to as the position of "OSAS" - my defense is of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the mighty work of God that He did on man's behalf through Jesus Christ. I believe that what God did...and what Jesus did in His life, death, and resurrection...He would have willingly done just for me even if I had been the only one that needed salvation. My trust is in Him - He saved me for all eternity - (saved: justification (initially, and for all eternity; an action that is wrought by grace and received through faith and by no work of my own) - sanctification (an on-going process of growing and maturing me (a process that can be hindered or enhanced by me, but this process can never go back and do away with or undo the first action of justification!) - glorification (a promise of the Lord Jesus specifically that one day those who believe in Him would cast off that which is earthly and would come to live where He lives).
Because of what Christ did for me, I live in victory, knowing assuredly that not only do I NOW have eternal life, for all my tomorrows I will continue to have eternal life, and when Jesus says to me, "Come!", I will just arise and continue in eternal life, but only in a new Home and without this old body and the sin nature I inherited from Adam and have had to deal with these past 42 years.
Blessings to all! (Mary)
PS...Ok...I'm done here on this subject. I'll be glad to discuss this further on my blog if anyone cares to discuss it further, but I won't tie up the cave's blog longer on this subject.
This may sound a bit odd to some, but I don't see eternal security and OSAS being one and the same.
This "OSAS" term (which I think is fairly new...at least to me it is) seems to throw in some curve balls along with some twists and turns into the gospel that I do not think are healthy.
One quote that I spotted the other day from Jack Kelly's 'Tribulation Purpose vs Church Nature' article that I want to highlight is:
"(I have recently noticed a resurgence of the view that not all Christians will inherit eternal life with the Lord, but only those judged worthy by their works. This view holds that while saved, some born again believers will actually share the destiny of unbelievers, being cast into the outer darkness and away from the presence of God forever. Proponents of this view demonstrate a remarkable ignorance of New Testament Theology as summarized in the verses I've cited here.)"
Obviously, I personally agree with Jack Kelly on this.
Jib,
I found the thought that you had deducted that if a person sins right before they die-they are hell bound.(which I couldn't believe anyone could come up w/such a thing.)Aparently it's a Hyper-Arminian though. (It's hyper all right.)
It's in this article Lion & Lamb Ministries under Assurance of Believer.
"I was raised in a hyper-Arminian church that taught a person could be saved one moment and lost the next and then be saved again. Every sin resulted in spiritual death. We were spiritual schizophrenics, never knowing whether we were saved or not."
Those of you involved in this topic would like to read this Lion & Lamb article. He's doing a book review but in that he brings up the different thoughts on the salvation issue and to what extent they differ.
The heading "Where I stand" & his view of "Assurance of the Believer" mirrors my thoughts on the matter.
Donna,
the JK article:
"This view holds that while saved, some born again believers will actually share the destiny of unbelievers, being cast into the outer darkness"
How could someone be saved yet go to hell? That doesn't make any sense.
Mary,
I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood what the position is of those who believe that a "saved" person can indeed walk away or fall away from Christ to such an extent that they completely sever their relationship with God.
Jesus defined eternal life.
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
He is faithful and will never fail us. All the Scriptures that you quote are true and I believe them. I do not extend meaning beyond them though. They don't say but man will never deny God or that man will never apostacize (sp?).
Peter denied Christ but I don't think he lost his salvation when He denied Christ. Why? Because Scripture makes it clear that he was heartbroken about it. That indicates to me that his heart was still towards the Lord.
If abiding faith is a free choice and we are saved by abiding in the Vine as Jesus said, then we indeed can lose our salvation. Salvation is relationship with God. He will never fail but we will fail Him IF we abandon the faith. It has nothing to do with works other than the fact that works (either good or bad) are the fruit of faith or faithlessness.
Jim G.
Lisa's link did not go thru properly so here is the link and the section of the article she was referring to...great article, btw~
Eternal Security, by David R Reagan
The Assurance of the Believer
I was raised in a hyper-Arminian church that taught a person could be saved one moment and lost the next and then be saved again. Every sin resulted in spiritual death. We were spiritual schizophrenics, never knowing whether we were saved or not. We believed that if a person died with one unconfessed sin on their conscience, they would burn forever in Hell. Needless to say, I never yearned for the return of Jesus, for I was afraid He would come on one of my bad days instead of one of my good days!
I praise God for the day I discovered I could be sure of my salvation — when I discovered there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1); that there is a continual cleansing from sin for those who are walking in the light (1 John 1:7); that God has forgiven and forgotten my sins (Hebrews 8:12); that I can know that I am saved (1 John 5:13); and that I can have confidence regarding the day of judgment (1 John 4:17). But my confidence and my assurance is based on a faith relationship that must persevere to the end of my life (Hebrews 3:14).
Does that constitute works salvation? Not at all. I was justified by grace through faith. My sanctification is occurring in the same way, by walking in faith, trusting in Jesus and allowing His Holy Spirit to shape and mold me. Salvation from beginning to end is a work of grace through faith, but it is a process that I must allow through my free will and my faith. God is not manufacturing robots. He is developing relationships.
Praise God for His glorious grace expressed in the gift of His precious Son who died for our sins!
To those of you who continue to comment to me, thanks, now...I will leave you to your 'wisdom.'
I appreciate Jack Kelley and Dave Reagan very much. I first refer to the whole Word of God and His Character and Reputation for the most part, though I do listen to the counsel of godly men and reference what they say by the Word. IMO, my time spent personally in the Word and in prayer for understanding of Truth and for wisdom is very important and should come first.
Blessings! (Mary)
Donna,
Thanks for re-linking that!
FYI:
I've been a Christian for most of my life. A practicing Christian for part. My Hubby is the newbe.I've had experience w/several denominations but in the end have learned to rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance. (My "parallellness" has turned into submission & abiding.) I may agree w/one doctrine more than another & I'm finding out through all of our conversations what those doctrines are called. For the past few years I've been going to a "non-denominational" church so they don't follow a particular set of corporate rules. They open the Bible and preach out & that's about the extent of it. If something pops up that doesn't seem right I look into it further.
Jim C,
The video you posted-it is hard to tell why they are clapping. At first I thought they agreed with the man telling the gay priest to repent but then they just cranked up the organ music to drown him out. I'm proud of that "heckler".
If the other people in the congregation agreed w/this man wouldn't they have left w/him as well? Or is it that most people in the congregation looked older? My grandparents for example would never "make waves" but would complain about things to themselves later.
The heckler was a younger man & didn't seem like a "regular" by the way he was dressed. Yet is no one else was willing to speak out? Someone's feelings might get hurt?
Of course the proper way is to take the person aside 1st in private and if they continue on the wrong path-then a public reprimand is o.K.& don't know if that had already occurred or not. (Probably someone had spoken to him since he was beginning to justify his position.)
I also liked your explanation re:
"I don't believe G_D would cut off so many people in history without providing some way of rescuing them."
HERE is another article from Lion & the Lamb.
You'll appreciate his break down of why some Christains are not eager for the Lord's return & interested in Bible prophesy.
My last one-Rapture of the Church
He breaks down the different views & makes some good points.
(I don't know about you but I never get tired of reading about these things. Even if I've already went over it a hundred times.)
Philemon 1:4-7
4 I always thank my God when I remember you in my prayers.
5 That's because I hear about your faith in the Lord Jesus. I hear about your love for all of God's people.
6 I pray that you will be active in sharing what you believe. Then you will completely understand every good thing we have in Christ.
7 Your love has given me great joy. It has cheered me up. My brother, you have renewed the hearts of God's people.
Lisa, Shalom! You wrote:
So when Kelly says this:” I have recently noticed a resurgence of the view that not all Christians will inherit eternal life with the Lord, but only those judged worthy by their works."
If there is a resurgence I wonder why suddenly there is one? Could it be that someone is trying to tell us something since we may possibly be on the verge of the rapture? And I don't know who thinks they are judged worthy (or meaning saved) by their works except for possibly Catholics? (Jim C is that true?-I think you had answered this before & it may just be a misconception)
Catholics place a lot of emphasis on works, but we don't believe we are saved solely by our works. Faith and Works are two sides of the same coin. Just look at all of James 2, esp. these verses:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
(James 2:14-26, NAB)
The Catholic commentary on these verses reads:
The theme of these verses is the relationship of faith and works (deeds). It has been argued that the teaching here contradicts that of Paul (see especially Romans 4:5-6). The problem can only be understood if the different viewpoints of the two authors are seen. Paul argues against those who claim to participate in God's salvation because of their good deeds as well as because they have committed themselves to trust in God through Jesus Christ (Paul's concept of faith). Paul certainly understands, however, the implications of true faith for a life of love and generosity (see Gal 5:6, 13-15). The author of James is well aware that proper conduct can only come about with an authentic commitment to God in faith (James 2:18, 26). Many think he was seeking to correct a misunderstanding of Paul's view.
There is also all of 1 Corinthians 13. Highlights include these verses:
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:1-2, KJV)
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor 13:8-10, KJV)
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (1 Cor 13:13, KJV)
I chose the King James Version because it translates the Greek word as "Charity" rather than just "Love", i.e., it is not just passive love; it needs to be an active love, a love shown through actions. Also note that of all the gifts and virtues (prophecies, tounges, faith), all fail if they are not accompanied by or supported by an active love.
So, Lisa, I have to agree with you -- not everyone who claims to be a Christian will be saved (Mat 7:21), and those who show their faith and love by their actions (their works) have a better chance than those who don't.
<><
..."Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" John 3:3
"You must be born again." John 3:7
Jim G.,
As one who agrees with you on the OSAS subject (in other words, I don't think OSAS is biblical), could a person answer when he is asked--
"Are you saved?"
with
"I am being saved"?
Salvation is an ongoing thing.
Vicki
I should have said, Sanctification is on ongoing thing.
Sorry 'bout that!
Joel has a new post up (again! Two in two days -- something must be cooking!)
<><
Absolutely, I agree....sanctification is an ongoing thing.
Viki,
I Love your new picture!
Yeah something must be up with Joel Rosenburg. Normally we complain because he takes so much time between posts.
This article is funny but in a sick sort of way.
Gay tourism ad causes uproar in South Carolina
Joel R's Link:
MEDITERRANEAN UNION" IS BORN
After you read this no wonder he's getting worked up.
I have not been seriously following the OSAS discussion here because the question was settled for me a long time ago. I believe in the preservation of the saints, but not eternal security.
There are many Scriptures that will support a holy life and everlasting grace. In our western way of thinking, we want to know which one it is, but one of my professors told me years ago that the most important theological word was "BOTH". In pretty every theological discussion, the answer is BOTH. The best term that I have found in defining the work of God is "paradox". Most of us are not comfortable with living in a paradox, and that makes God smile!!
Our relation to God is most clearly expressed by the image of marriage. We only come to God thru the wooing of the Holy Spirit. (without Him, we would never be able to even be interested). Yet, he foreknew that some of us would choose to listen to His calling, making our presence at the wedding feast something of our choosing alone. His romancing us and our response are both there. We chose to marry God when we became a Christian. It is a legal agreement, a mix of an arranged marriage and a marriage of love. As a legal agreement, it's continuing is not subject to emotion or actions, but only the law.
I do believe that a person can divorce God, but this must be a deliberate, proclaimed, choice, (as in human marriage, in contrast to legal separation) and once done, it is irrevocable. There is no return for this person, and we are told not to even bother praying for them. It is important to note that this choice is not back-sliding, or being luke-warm, or asking God to look the other way. As only God can judge the heart of the person, I would never proclaim that such a person has divorced God, but I believe the possibility is there.
I know that this is not a comfort for some people, and I have been often rebuked for allowing this possibility, but the Holiness of God is toooooooooo great to be treated casually.
On a different note, I find that the "world" has discovered the took by which to make Christianity illegal. Because we will not accept that which God calls an abomination, we are the people who hate, who are intolerant, who bring conflict into society.
In the past, we were only intolerant of sin and evil, now we hate good people for simply "who they are". I expect that the pressure will just continue until the Bible is banned, (as in Colorado). The momentum has reached a tipping point,and even to protest against McD's is seen as attacking people. I no longer see a way out of this attack.
by the way, I am LW
Hi Wayne, I pretty much thought you were LW :-) Interesting comments and I like your use of the idea of paradox.
Mary, don’t stop commenting because someone may disagree with you. Your input will help sharpen iron with iron.
Lisa, the MU seems to have taken over from the ENP in prophetic interest. The ENP was the treaty that some say initiated Daniel's 70th week on Jan 2007. Maybe if Obama becomes pres later this year he'll come up with another, better one. I wonder what he'd call it.
I stopped by Joels Trumpetsite today- he's getting a little nervous and has finally warned people to stock up on food.
I believe Joel R. and most of his regulars are pre-wrath or? Anyway they'll have to endure the Tribulation. As they see the inevitable coming at us some are starting to make some plans for survival.
It appears that this recent experience he had is what tipped the scale for him:
"The past few weeks, I have been working with a commodities broker who works with mostly multi-million dollar clients. He has been doing it for over thirty years and is very good at what he does. I asked him a week ago where I should be investing (if I had any money to invest). Please follow this. This man is a relatively nominal non-practicing Catholic. He looked at me very seriously and said to take the first few thousand dollars and buy dried food (rice, spaghetti etc.,) for my family. He then said to take the rest and buy American Silver Eagles in order that I can barter for common goods during the “tribulation” that we are about to enter into."
Someone linked a speech given by Brigitte Gabriel at a Prophesy Conference hosted by a Calvary Chapel.
It's quite alarming when you realize how many Muslims have set up shop in the US and are ready to slit our throats. This is part one and goes onto part ? I saw part 2 which goes into her personal testimony dealing with being a Christain in Lebanon and the detailed Islamic persecution happening around her as a child.
If something goes down in the US it could happen to us as well.
Mission not impossible!
Changing the worldview of Eastern mystics
OK, Mac and Wayne, I looked up "LW" on the internet slang site and it's not there. What does it mean?
Anne - Wayne used to go by LW as his Blue Blogger name. I think now that he is using "Wayne" he wanted to make sure everyone knew who he was (in case they forgot LW's name was Wayne.
From Jimmy DeYoung's site
France Announces Creation of the Mediterranean Union
July 14, 2008
French president Nicolas Sarkozy has seen a dream become a reality with the formation of the Mediterranean Union. The MU is a coalition of nations surrounding the Mediterranean Sea, including the Jewish state of Israel and many Arab and Islamic states. The project - under its official name Barcelona Process: Union for the Mediterranean - is under the present leadership of a member of the European Union, Sarkozy, and a representative from a Mediterranean nation, Egypt's president, Hosni Mubarak. The announcement of the Mediterranean Union came out of a summit in France that President Sarkozy had brought together, and included 43 nations, and included representatives from all 27 member-states of the EU.
Many world leaders are saying this new Union, which includes nations not presently member-states of the EU, will end up inducting them all into the EU. This would basically form the borders of the old Roman Empire of 2000 years ago.
Jimmy's Prophetic Prospective on the News
The formation of the Mediterranean Union made up of Arab and Islamic states along with Israel, has moved the European Union closer to the fulfillment of Bible prophecy for the Last Days.
After some very strong debates among the 27 member-states of the EU, the recent summit in Paris, France formed the Mediterranean Union. The future of the MU, as President Sarkozy envisions it, would expand the European Union to 44 member states and include all the boundries of the old Roman Empire.
This report reads like it was taken out of Daniel 7. The ancient Jewish prophet Daniel spoke of the Gentile world powers from his time into the future. He spoke of the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires. In Daniel 7:7 & 24 it is revealed that there will be a Revived Roman Empire that will come to power in the Last Days. Daniel 7:8 speaks of the "Little Horn" - one of the 27 names for the Antichrist - who will come to power out of the Revived Roman Empire.
President Sarkozy's Mediterranean Union is one step closer to Daniel's prophecy being fulfilled in what seems to be the very near future.
Sorry to inform you but Wayne is not lw.
lw was a bible scholar. Wayne is not.
lw knew scripture, Old Testament as well as New Testament.
Many of us used to ask lw if he was Jewish, because of the way he explained the prophecies.
I copied almost all of lw's posts, when I have time I will post some of them, so you all can see the difference.
I can understand how all you newbies could be fooled, but not any of you old timers.
Wayne, shame on you!
By the way, how is the Ukrainianvatican?
Anonymous, do you mind telling us who you are if you're going make that claim?
Alesia....
oh.
Thanks. :-]
Obama's About Face on Undivided Jerusalem Complete
sorry annonymous, but in this case you are wrong. I did not add all the references to my views, as I am only beginning to return to health (Anastasis)
Also, in the case of OSAS, any use of the OT would be meaningless, as the role of the HS in a person's life is different. For the OT, we use the concept of OSAS to refer to the nation of Israel, but each Jew stands or falls on his own, as Ezekiel clearly states in chapter 18. This is why David prayed that G_d would not take His Holy spirit from him.
I could go on, but I think I will go to bed. I have to get up at an ungodly time for work.
G_d bless, Wayne
Thanks for that quick response, Wayne!
PS Praying for healing too.
There's a new post up.
well this will likely get lost in the change of postings
Lisa
Joel Rosenberg is not prewrath but pretrib. His referring to tribulation I would interpret as any time of turmoil or trouble rather than THE tribulation. He has frequently said that while he is convinced we are living in the last days and that the rapture is near, he also realizes that he has the potential to be wrong FURTHER since the US is not mentioned in so far as we know in prophecy there must be something that takes her out of the picture. He speculated in Dead Heat that it was a nuke attack (it still might be) but as Glenn Beck said when he interviewed him it could just as easily be economic. So since the rapture may or may not happen before something bad happens to the US irrelevant of THE tribulation, it would be prudent to stock up on some sort of currency with which to purchase goods since the dollar might be worthless and with what will you purchase goods and services?
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