Mat 18:12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
Mat 18:13 "If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.
Mat 18:14 "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
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156 comments:
first again?
Mac
I actually sat here and read all 25 other articles plus a few more from his site. all very interesting and he has some interesting points.
I think however it is obvious that he hasn't updated to take in some of the current events.
Me first! What? Oh....grumble.
You're right, Jib. As I was saying to Alesia - this world has seen worse times in terms of war, famine and economic strife etc. But the real indicator for me is Israel and what's happening in the ME. I think Joel Rosenburg is the man with his finger on the pulse.
Alesia
what happened to your "3" post?
Mr Hyde
I'd have to agree but having said that if you will recall from his book Footsteps of the Messiah Dr Frucht lays out a fairly ambitious delineation of the end times and after reading it I had to wonder how long we might be talking about for some of what he wrote to come true. Specifically he sees the one world government on the scene BEFORE the antichrist and sees the AC as an outsider, not already in power taking over.
I still think we're fairly close though. you know I sent out the post by Joel on the med union to both Christians and non Christians and only my secular french brother in law responded!
although it would please me to be a grandmother and Koenig's time line would allow for that :-)
Jib, I think we can speculate but only God knows the times for sure. So we should continue to occupy and be about His business of witnessing etc and still expect Him any time. So if Pre-Trib is correct and He comes unexpectedly, we're not caught with our fingers in the cookie jar!
A little boy opened the big family Bible. He was fascinated as he fingered through the old pages. Suddenly, something fell out of the Bible. He picked up the object and looked at it. What he saw was an old leaf that had been pressed in between the pages. 'Mama, look what I found,' the boy called out.
'What have you got there, dear?'
With astonishment in the young boy's voice, he answered, 'I think it's Adam's underwear!'
on Sun. July 20 @3:39 AM
mac said...
New article from the Lambert Dolphin site:
Arminian or Calvinist?
Thanks Mac. I liked it.
Here's where I see common ground among those who believe in "eternal security" or OSAS as some call it and those who believe we must be found abiding in Christ (not prodigal or apostate or backslidden) when He returns or when we die in order to be eternally secure.
Both teach that it is the Lord who initiates and woos us to Himself.
Both teach that we are completely lost without Him.
Both teach that there is no other name under heaven whereby we can be saved.
Both teach that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Both teach that we are dependent upon the Holy Spirit to reveal God and his Truth to us.
Both teach that believers identify with Christ's death and resurrection.
I suppose there are many variations of both Calvanism and Arminianism. John Calvin and Jacob Arminius would of course each be the true experts on what they thought but our aim (as I think was theirs) is to understand what the Scriptures say and then live accordingly.
Jim G.
One thing in the Calvinism/Arminianism article Mac posted that caught my attention was the extreme Arminian position that God does not know the future because of our free will.
I think that extreme position is clearly unbiblical.
But, I also think that just because God is omniscient (knows all, including the future) that that doesn't therefore mean He can't allow man to have free will.
Simply knowing the future does not mean that one controls the future. Prophets knew the future because God revealed it to them. But that obviously doesn't mean that they therefore controled it.
I have a son who is not yet two years old. I may know in advance that he is going to do something (ask for ice cream, for example, when he sees us get it out of the freezer). That does not mean that I somehow caused his actions because I knew them beforehand.
God is also sovereign over all. He has ultimate control over everything. I think in His sovereign will he has allowed man (created in His image) to exercise some level of sovereignty over our own lives. Is he able to override our choices, I suppose. But having the power and exercising the power are two different things.
As for election and predestination, I tend to think they apply corporately to us (Israel as nation is chosen and the Church is chosen). Of course the Church is made up of those who have responded to His revelation and his grace and mercy and surrendered in faith to Him.
As one of the commentators in the articl Mac posted said:
...The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus died for everyone's sins and that everyone is able to be saved if they will repent and turn to Christ. Limited atonement is a non-Biblical doctrine.
Election and predestination are Biblical doctrines. God knows everything and therefore He cannot be surprised by anything. He is beyond the constraints of mass, acceleration and gravity, therefore He is outside time. He knows, and has known from "eternity past," who will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him. The former are "the elect" and the latter are the "non-elect." Everyone who is not saved will have only himself to blame: God will not send anyone to hell, but many people will choose to go there by exercising their free will to reject Christ.
On the other hand, no one who is saved will be able to take any of the credit. Our salvation is entirely God's work, and is based completely on the finished work of the Cross. We were dead in trespasses and sins, destined for hell, when God in His grace drew us to Himself, convinced us of our sin and our need for a Savior, and gave us the authority to call Jesus Lord. Is this grace, this wooing, this courtship, irresistible? No, we have free will and we can (and do) resist, even to the damnation of our souls, but God does everything short of making us automata (preprogrammed puppets) to draw us into His forever family.
Cute joke Mac!
Katherine Hall said...
Mac,
I still think Mt. 24 is a rapture passage, plain and simple.
I do too. It does seem quite plain and straightforward.
Jim G.
Does anybody have any sense why the Lord would bind Satan up for a thousand years and then let him loose again. Why not just finish the job with Satan so to speak when He returns?
The Millenium has always seemed so strange to me. I've always taken it literally (and something yet to come).
Thoughts?
Oh no.
Lisa's going to love this;-)
McCain and Obama Agree to Attend Megachurch Forum
Jim G.
One of the OL members posted this and I thought it would be nice to share (without her permission - gulp):
I am in Colorado now, looking out at the stars. The flowers were so abuntant that the mountains look like someone has just spilled color over them. Blue, purple, red, yellow, pink, and all the shades between scattered everywhere. When the sun sets, the sky looks like it is on fire. Hummingbirds out my window can't decide between the flowers and the feeder. The abundance of God's blessings were at the Farmers Market this afternoon. I fish for my supper and enjoy the fresh vegetables my God has provided. When the bear visits, I stay out of his way, but he is truly magnificant. Fox play with their pups, starting to teach them to hunt. The Magpies swoop over them complaining loudly. Deer and elk feed in the medows while beaver slap their tales to protest my intrusion. I am writing this to praise our God and thank him for his blessings. How incredible He is. What a wonderful world He created. Just think what he has waiting for us.
I do too. It does seem quite plain and straightforward. Jim G.
Now that's a bit of a shock! :-)
I still think Mt. 24 is a rapture passage, plain and simple.
For me it’s actually not that simple judging from the complex arguments & counter-arguments I’ve seen regarding Mat 24. Some (few) Pre-Trib folk do see and argue for a rapture plus the visible second coming and the global regathering of Israel (including the remnant of Rev 12:14) as prophesied - being two separate events discussed in Mat 24. Post-Tribbers see these two events occurring simultaneously but at the end of, not ¾ of the way through, the 70th week. I think the end of the age is at the end of the 70th week not ¾ of the way through it.
In the other case you cite, Paul would have been talking about the rapture (whenever that occurs), and Christ of His visible coming – two distinct events. And, yes, I know that Pre-Trib critics argue that there is only ONE second coming ;-)
This is an interesting paper, if only as a comparison of 2 views. Mid-Trib is hardly ever discussed but apparently has some commonalities with Pre-Wrath. At least Buswell's version has.
A Comparison of J. Oliver Buswell’s Mid-Trib Position with the Pre-Wrath Rapture View
Jim G,
It's so nice not to be the lone prewrather anymore. I think we'll be enjoying a lotta latte's on behalf of our fellow cave dwellers someday!
Mac,
What do you think Jesus meant when He said He would be with us till the end of the age? Hitting the hay...I'll check back in with you tomorrow.
Who was He talking to there?
Kathy, you could always come into the light with the rest of us. Sorry, I'm not 100% today (inclement weather as well) and I have too much time on my hands.
Kathy, if you want to use that verse technically rather than a general assurance, and the Lord is specifically addressing the church, and the rapture and the gathering of Israel is in view in Mat 24 as one event at the END of the AGE; then the rapture is Post-Trib. Even from a Pre-Wrath perspective, the church is raptured before the End of the Age. Post-Tribbers would have a field day with that one.
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Matthew 24:31: Rapture Or Second Coming?
Jim C; interesting question as to why Satan is loosed at the end of the Millennium. J. Hampton Keathley has an answer I've heard given by other commentators. Long article though:
The Reign of Christ and the Great White Throne (Rev 20:1-15)
Sorry, that should be Jim G. Man, you two guys look alike! I should just shut up now - too much coffee.
Jib - I deleted it. Only put it there so I could click the email comments button. haha
Mac - Went a little crazy there with the comments, huh?
Way too much coffee - starting a trib debate/discussion.
Good golly!!! ;-)
Everyone have a God filled day!
(and good sleep to you Mac)
Gaining Direction Through a Lack of Provision
TGIF Today God Is First Volume 2, by Os Hillman
07-21-2008
"You will drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there" (1 Kings 17:4).
The prophet Elijah pronounced a drought upon the land because of the sin of Ahab and the nation of Israel. There was only one problem. Elijah had to live in the same land as Ahab.
"Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe in Gilead, said to Ahab, 'As the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.' Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah: 'Leave here, turn eastward and hide in the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan. You will drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there'" (1 Kings 17:1-4).
God provided for Elijah in a supernatural way. The ravens brought bread in the morning and meat in the evening. His water came from the brook.
God often uses money to confirm direction for our lives. Many times God uses a lack of provision to move us into new directions. It is a catalyst to encourage new ideas and strategies. Many times a loss of job becomes the greatest blessing to our lives because it provides the catalyst to do things we simply would never do without taking the step to get out of our comfort zone.
Friend, if you are fully following the Lord in your life and seeking direction from Him and you have no un-confessed sin in your life, there is no way He will allow you to miss His provision for you. He has a thousand ways to get the provision you need at the time you need it. Provision follows obedience
The reason I don't think I'm confused and am sticking to my pre-trib guns is in the letter to the
7-Churches.
I don't think God placed that letter in the beginning of Revelation as a fluke.
Rev 3:10
"Because you have kept My command to perservere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
So to me that says those who have abided in/faithful to Christ & perservere will be kept from (raptured-due to the other passages in the Bible that pertain) from the hour of trial(The entire Tribulation period-70 weeks) because the PURPOSE of the Tribulation is to TEST everyone on earth.
The saints who persevere have already been tested and are worthy to meet Christ at this time.Specifically they have perservered.(what we still have to go through only God knows-it could very well be quite bad) There is no reason for the saints to be tested some more through the Trib.
Christains in other countries are already under heavy persecution right now.
Except for some in the Dead Church-the rest will have to endure the Tribulation-He tells them all to "overcome". Meaning overcome the tribulation. Repent of what He mentioned,overcome,then the eternal promises are made to the overcomers of each Church group.
If you look at what God's unhappy about w/the 7-Churches you'll realize that not many Christians of today would be considered worthy to escape the Trib. In fact they need to be tested to see if their 1st love is YHWH.
He searches the mind & hearts so He knows who will recieve a special blessing and who wont. We can't fake Him out by our religious-os-sity.
Honestly, I believe except for a few Christians-(In comparison w/those who claim Christianity)most will be tested through the Tribulation.
I will not claim to be one of those exceptions-although I hope to-because who knows what I'll do in the future. What if some nukes go off & I'm fleeing w/kids in tow.
I could have a moment/season of temporaty insanity w/put under extreme pressure.
What kind of persecution have we had for our faith in the US? So far nothing very extreme-but we can see the storm brewing.
So even in my Pre-Trib state of mind I agree that most professed Christians will be tested during the Tribulation.
A Pastor with GUTS!!
story was verified
Thought you might enjoy this interesting prayer given in Kansas at the opening session of their Senate. It seems prayer still upsets some people. When Minister Joe Wright was asked to open the new session of the Kansas Senate, everyone was expecting the usual generalities, but this is what they heard:
'Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, 'Woe to those who call evil good,' but that is exactly what we have done.
We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values.
We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.
We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare
We have killed our unborn and called it choice.
We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.
We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self esteem.
We have abused power and called it politics.
We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition.
We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.
We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.
Search us, Oh, God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from every sin and set us free.
Amen!'
The response was immediate. A number of legislators walked out during the prayer in protest. In 6 short weeks, Central Christian Church, where Rev. Wright is pastor, logged more than
5,000 phone calls with only 47 of those calls responding negatively. The church is now receiving international requests for copies of this prayer from India, Africa and Korea.
Commentator Paul Harvey aired this prayer on his radio program, 'The Rest of the Story,'and received a larger response to this program than any other he has ever aired.
If possible, please pass this prayer on to your friends. 'If you don't stand for something, you will fall for everything.' (my all time favorite saying)
Love & God Bless
'If we ever forget that we're one nation under GOD, then we will be a nation gone under.' - Ronald Reagan
Shalom, all! You may recall early last week when it came to light that the San Francisco City and County Board had passed a resolution that officially labeled the Catholic Church's moral teachings on homosexuality as "insulting to all San Franciscans," "hateful," "defamatory," "insensitive" and "ignorant".
Well, guess what the Most Tolerant City In America is proposing to do:
San Francisco to Consider Decriminalizing Prostitution
Man, they are just cruisin' for a bruisin'...
Jib, Shalom! I want to thank you for posting that link yesterday to Israel Insider re: BHO possibly not being a citizen. I figure if he's not going to spend the $10 to get a new copy of his birth certificate and make this problem go away, what is he going to do when he's confronted by something REALLY annoying, like Congress.
<><
Quote of the Day
If God is irrelevant to public life, then society will be shaped in a godless image, and debate and policy concerning the public good will be driven more by consequences than by principles grounded in truth.
(Pope Benedict XVI, World Youth Day 2008)
General perception wise-San Fransicko is the most "Sodom & Gomorrahish" US city of them all.
Pictures of Sodom
"The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah became an example in the Bible of how God judges sin. “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before Me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen” (Ezekiel 16:49-50).
More on S & G
Shalom, all! I want to thank you all for your prayers during my recent dark period. I also wanted to bring you up to date on a theological discussion I started in the "Moral Theology" forum over on Catholic Answers asking "Is Suicide acceptable to avoid Rape?"
A lot of interesting insights there. As one person put it, That's kind of like the question, "If you were forced to receive the mark of the beast or be killed, which would you choose?" or, If you knew what the soldiers would do to your wife and daughters and you had a gun, would you kill them before letting the soldiers take them?
The general consensus is that it depends on the level of duress, and what the person believes their ultimate fate would be. For example, there is this story of St. Apollonia (as told by Sister Mary Martha -- "Life is tough. But Nuns are tougher.") After having all of her teeth bashed in and pulled out, her torturers led her to a fire, threatening to toss her in if she didn't renounce Jesus. She said something like, "If you let me go I'll say whatever you want." When they let her go, she jumped into the fire herself. She's considered a martyr, not a suicide, because it was reasonable to believe that they were going to kill her anyway. In like manner, many of the virgin martyrs could reasonably assume (given past experience of others in the community) that if they went along with the soldiers or the pagans or whomever, that they would be killed anyway. Sexual slaves are rarely returned home when the men are finished with them.
Barring foreknowledge like that, it would be the ideal to have the woman calmly accept G_D's will and bravely steel herself for what is to come. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that this would be every Christian woman's response, though, and if in fact her mind is clouded by fear, that is a level of duress that can't help but influence what she does. So the consensus was that while it might be a sin, only G_D knows how serious the sin would be, and we trust in the mercy of G_D.
Oh, and Happy Monday, everyone!
<><
The reality is that we all sin...whether we realize it or not, or whether we willingly sin or not.
We are sinners...but if we are in Christ, we are forgiven sinners.
I think we may have "talked" about this before...the
Masada situation...where hundreds of Jewish people committed suicide, rather than face death, slavery and rape by the invading Romans in the first century.
Sad situation, to say the least.
Actually if we are "in Christ" we are righteous & holy in God's eyes through the blood of Jesus.
We may sin but "sinners" are the unsaved.
Colossians 1:21
"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-if indeed you continue in the faith,grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard,..."
Col 2:8-10
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosphy and empty deceit,according to the basic principles of the world,and not according to Christ.For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality & power.
(We already have the source for all "fullness of Christ" within us and should strive to obtain it as we mature in the faith. It's all there. Not part there. The more one submits to the Spirit the more fullness of Christ will be seen & overflow through our thoughts & actions. **That part just sunk into my grey matter last Sunday.)
Col 3:5-7
"Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth:fornication,uncleanness,
passion,evil desire,and covetousness,which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath on God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which yourselves once walked when you lived with them."
(Just proving once again-you can't walk in the ways of the world and be saved. You walk in the ways of the world-you are of the world & an enemy of God.)
A list of what a Christian should not be doing any longer.As a Christian matures in faith & submits to the Holy Spirit he will eventually overcome these things.That's why we are told to press on-keep going-persevere.We're always to move ahead.No matter what spiritual maturity level one is at- there is always more to learn and grow. We'll never "reach the complete fullness of Christ" in our earthly lifetimes.
Col 3:8
But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger,wrath,malice,blasphemy,filthylanguage out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another,since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him....but Christ is all and in all."
We are a new creation in Christ.
Col: 3:12-14
"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies,kindness,humility,meekness,longsuffering;bearing with one another, if anyone has a complaint against another;even as Christ forgave you,so you also must do.But above all things put on love which is the bond of perfection.
See-we're holy & beloved. Let's not think of ourselves as "sinners." That gives us an excuse to act like one.
Here is that sermon I thought some of you might like. It's non-offensive even to OSAS types.
Part 4 is great-(This Sunday was part 5 which is a little higher concept than 4. It went into the "fullness" of Christ.)
Christ in You-The Hope of Glory
Part 4-begins @ about 50:00
(The podium was saved in a Church fire-that's why it's burnt.)
Part 5-begins @ about 44:00
"Actually if we are "in Christ" we are righteous & holy in God's eyes through the blood of Jesus."
Yes, this is what the Bible teaches.
:)
Yippee kai yay !
Donna we agree on something.
(just not the defination of who is in Christ and who is not.)
What about the "sinner" concept? Better to think of ourselves in a positive light as God sees us.
Tell me what you think about those sermons if you watch them.
HI Lisa...I sure hope we agree on more than that!
While He does see us as white as snow thru His blood, I guess I still see myself as being a sinner still going thru the sanctification process while I am still here on earth.
I really don't worry about any of it all that much though.
My favorite verse is
"Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make straight your paths" and I kind of live by that.
When Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, things changed.
I guess I am one of those Holy Spirit led type Christians...and not into 'legalism' at all.
Yes, there are guidelines to live by...but I believe we are to be powered to live by these thru His control and power, not ours.
Walk by faith, not by sight;
yield to the Holy Spirit; enter into His rest;let go, let God thru Christ, all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable, etc.
But anyway, I gotta hit the hay!
HAve a great night or day, depending on where you live!
<><
Mac,
If you compare Mt. 13:24-30, 36-43, the parable of the wheat and tares and its explanation with Mt. 24 and Mt. 28:20, all three reference the end of the age. In Mt. 13:30 the tares and the wheat are allowed to grow together until the harvest. Then at the harvest the reapers will gather the wheat into the barn. Who is the wheat? Is it just Israel or is it the church? It's the church isn't it? That would make the gathering of the wheat into the barn the rapture, wouldn't it? Who are the reapers? According to Mt. 13:39 they are the angels. When is the harvest? According to Mt. 13:39 it's at the end of the age.
Moving to Mt. 24, the disciples ask about the sign of Christ's coming and the end of the age. What signals the end of the age? The sign in the sun, moon, and stars. v. 29 When does it occur? Sometime after the AofD which we know occurs at the midpoint of D’s 70th Week. Who appears at the triple sign? Christ with His reapers, the angels. What do the angels do? They gather the elect.
We have a reference to the end of the age in both chapter 13 and chapter 24 of Mt. Are there two different ends of the age? Obviously not. The wheat in Mt. 13 is not Israel, it’s the church. That would then make the elect in Mt. 24 the church.
Mt. 24 says the days of tribulation which begin after the AofD are cut short. What cuts them short? The end of the age and the gathering of the elect, the church. That puts the rapture sometime after the midpoint of D's 70th Week but before the end of the Week.
In Mt. 28:20 Jesus says He'll be with us, the church, till the end of the age. What happens at the end of the age according to Mt. 13 and Mt. 24? He'll return physically with His reapers/angels and gather us/the wheat into the barn/to Himself/heaven.
I don't see how you can look at those three passages and come up with any other conclusion that Mt. 24 is the rapture of the church.
We can’t throw out Mt. 13 and Mt. 28 so we can make Mt. 24 the gathering of Israel. That is not doing justice to the texts.
Comparing Scripture with Scripture will give clarification to a not so clear passage.
Then when you study the day of the Lord and all its references in the OT and NT, you see that the day of the Lord is actually a reference to the end of the age. And doesn’t Paul say in 2 Th. 2 that the day of the Lord will not come before the man of lawlessness is revealed, when he exalts himself in the temple of God and demands worship, which is an obvious reference to the AofD?
Comparing Scripture with Scripture, it all fits like a glove, all the contradictions melt away.
Have you done Kristen's prewrath study from her website? It makes it all very clear. I would urge you to give it a go if you haven't yet.
does anyone else find this to be as weird, creepy and frightening as I do?
BHO replaces US Flag on plane tail with own emblem "O" in red,white and blue!!"
Jim C
I'd make sure I died in a way to take as many of them as I could out.
Donna,
Close your eyes-I've got another
Weird One
Donna, Shalom! What's interesting about Masada is that each person didn't commit suicide. The men drew lots (shards of marked broken pottery), and the ones who were chosen went through each house and executed the people living there. Then the men killed each other, so no person would be guilty of suicide.
<><
This is interesting-didn't know about it before.
HAARP
We can’t throw out Mt. 13 and Mt. 28 so we can make Mt. 24 the gathering of Israel. That is not doing justice to the texts.
Kathy; did you read the article I linked to? Comparing Scripture context with Scripture context, I think Showers & Ice show that there is a clear and direct correlation between Mat 24 and the OT verses promising the regathering of Israel. You may want to argue for a rapture in there as well but that’s another matter. You really need to read “Maranatha, Our Lord Come” as Showers goes into it in-depth. But think for a minute, when the Lord gave the Mat 24 talk, the church was not yet in existence. The disciples must have understood what the Lord was saying in context with their own Jewish expectations – the regathering:
Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"
The disciples’ focus was on the restoration of Israel, not on any rapture.
HERMENEUTICS AND MATTHEW 13 Part I: Preliminary Hermeneutical Concerns
HERMENEUTICS AND MATTHEW 13 Part II: Exegetical Conclusions
Each part of Jesus’ Matthew 24:31 statement is derived from Old Testament passages that relate exclusively to the nation of Israel, not to the Church.
A. The Old Testament calls Israel God’s “elect” (Isaiah 45:4) or “chosen” (Deuteronomy 7:6). These passages use the same Hebrew word for “elect” or “chosen.”
B. Because of Israel’s persistent rebellion, God said that He would scatter them “into all the winds” (Ezekiel 5:10). Later He said that He had spread them abroad “as the four winds of heaven” Zechariah 2:6).
C. God promised that He would gather together the scattered of Israel and of Judah “from the four corners of the earth” (Isaiah 11:12). He also promised that they would be brought from the east, west, north, and south, from far, and from the ends of the earth” (Isaiah 43:5-6).
D. God promised that in the future He would gather the people of Israel from all the nations where He had scattered them. He said to them, “If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from there will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from there will he fetch thee” (Deuteronomy 30:3-4).
E. God indicated that the people of Israel will be gathered when “the great trumpet shall be blown” (Isaiah 27:12-13)
ICHABOD
Commentary by Roger Oakland
The Bible calls Satan the great deceiver. To be deceived means to be led away from the truth without knowing it. If the person being deceived knew they were being deceived, then deception would not have occurred. One must believe that one is not deceived in order to be deceived. It is just that simple.
Lisa,
Definitely weird and you're right, I don't pay too much attention to things like that! Too many other things to focus on! :)
Jim, interesting about Masada. I hope you are feeling better and I totally understand your concerns re: things that can happen in this fallen world we live in.
Mac,
I'm w/you that most of Matt 24 is addressing the Jews.
Some of the Pre-tribs have the entire Matt 24 mixed into their passages which only creates more confusion.
These passages could pertain to the Gentiles or both:
Matt 24:36-44, Chapter 25:1-30
It's the "Watch therefore" that gets me. Evil Servant,Foolish Virgins, & Talents. It's be ready, be on guard, you never know.
It can't be talking to the Jews right @ this point in time.If they are purposely blinded-how can they "watch" for Jesus?
Don't you think by the time the 144,000 are sealed-they'll be looking for Jesus 3 1/2 years after they flee into the desert?
Remember in times past-when God declared that something is to happen @ a partiular time-it happens on that exact date. Not a day before or after.
Now they don't even acknowledge Jesus & the blinders are not taken off. The only people watching for his return @ this point are some in the Church.(And very few Messanic Jews)
The Jews are still waiting for their non-Jesus Messiah.
The more I kept looking @ Matt 24 & gaining knowledge of what the Jews were actually looking for "The actual promised Kingdom"-the clearer it became.
On the other hand (there was a great comparison article posted here not long ago) Luke 21-seems to be addressed to the Gentile audience-or us.
Anyone have some futher reasoning on this? I think my brain has hit it's capacity for the morning.
Israeli, Palestinian presidents talk peace
Palestinian leader makes first-ever visit to Peres' official residence
This also happened today:
JERUSALEM -" A Palestinian man rammed a construction vehicle into three cars and a bus in downtown Jerusalem Tuesday, injuring four people before a civilian shot him dead, police and witnesses said.
The attack was a chilling imitation of a similar incident early this month, when a Palestinian driver went on a rampage with his earth-moving vehicle on a busy Jerusalem street, plowing into vehicles and pedestrians, killing three and wounding dozens before an off-duty soldier shot and killed him. "
So far they think the guy was nuts on drugs-not an organized terrorist plot.
if you all haven't checked out the article on the plane tail I posted late last night-you really need to see the picture on this plane.
my hubby's first reaction when I showed it to him was to ask if we were sure there was not way this guy could be the AC! (which was my first thought on seeing it)
Mac, do you view the gathering "of Israel" in Mt. 24 as a gathering into the land?
Lisa,
My point exactly about Mt. 24 is that no orthodox Jew is going to be looking in the NT for instruction . All of Mt. is instruction for believers, though it was written to a Jewish audience. Jesus at the end of the book commands that disciples be made of every nation and they should be taught to observe everything He commanded them. This would include His instruction in Mt. 24 as well.
One other point...immediately after the great tribulation ends, after the sign in the sun, moon, in stars in Mt. 24, the angels arrive with Jesus and gather the elect. After the sign is given in Rev. 6, in Rev. 7 we see a huge multitude in heaven from every tribe and nation, who come out of the great tribulation!
Not much time to respond further at this time. But for an exhaustive study of Mat 24 I recommend that people go read Thomas' Ice Matthew articles. The problem is that they ARE exhaustive and it is apparent to me that things are not as "plain and simple" as some might think.
Kathy, why does God change His mind and shorten the Tribulation if He is Omniscient?
Jib, I read that article (Obama symbol). You're right, creepy. If not AC, how about the false prophet? I hate to jump into outlandish speculation, but I do wonder.
BTW, Joel has a new post about Obama's trip.
Jib,
That plane. What a marketing/branding campaign.
O-bama & 0-prah. What a pair.
The only thing Obama has to offer is an "Image" since he's not done much of anything to speak of.
Remember-he's also changed the offical seal on his podium?
He really wants to "CHANGE" the United States of America. This is no joke-the guy is serious.
Well folks-maybe this is America's judgment. Having Obama for president. Just remember-God's in control-we can't freak.
If my faith was not strong-I'd be freaking.
I've been told to knock it off by my fellow administrators. Yikes.
Everyone can come out of hiding now.
Mac, knock what off?
Rapture dialogues.
Mac,
Jesus Himself says that unless those days of tribulation are cut short, no life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. (Mt. 24:22) D's 70th Week is not cut short, but the persecution against God's elect is cut short. In John's vision (Rev. 6) of the opening of the fifth seal he sees underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony they maintained. They cry out asking God how long He's going to withhold His vengeance. (God's wrath is not falling during the great tribulation.) He tells them to wait a little while longer, "until the number of their fellow servants and brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also." In His omniscience, God already knows the exact number of His own who will be martyred during the great tribulation. There's no changing of His mind. The slaughter is going to be great, but He will not let it go on so that all believers will be wiped out. Those who are alive and remain, that word can also be translated as survive, will be caught up with the dead in Christ who will rise first. What is it that believers will be surviving? The great tribulation. He will bring relief to the afflicted when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels...dealing out retribution...2 Th. 1:7,8. Doesn't that sound like Mt. 24, the Son of Man appearing with His angels to gather the elect who've been under great persecution, and Mt. 13, where the reapers/angels gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up?
I love rapture dialogues Mac.
The Mystery of the Giants
There is a part 1 & 2. The giant spear and sandals are really something to see. Gives you a great visual of the size of Goliath.
Lisa, Shalom! Re: your message of 7:31 AM, there's a book I think you REALLY need to read. Salvation Is from the Jews: The Role of Judaism in Salvation History by Roy H. Schoeman. Mr. Schoeman is a Jewish convert to Catholicism and has written an excellent analysis of Christian/Jewish relations; current Jewish theology; the relationship between Margaret Sanger, eugenics, Planned Parenthood, and the Nazi's Final Solution; and the Jews and the Second Coming (among other things). I've hesitated mentioning the book earlier since it is definitely Catholic in outlook, but I think it has the insight that you're looking for.
One thing the book made clear is the role that G_D (or lack thereof) plays in current Jewish theology. After the Holocaust, many Jews (except for the most Orthodox) stopped believing in a G_D that loved the Jewish people and started believing in a G_D who wants people to be more compassionate than HE is. This almost atheistic view will undoubtedly play a role in the End Times.
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Lisa, Shalom! After I posted that last message I found a web site devoted to the book here.
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Perry also mentions something about a "Great Serpent Mound" website to look up more giant info on but I think I got the wrong site.
The Great Serpent Mound
"If there was ever a collective earth–memory recognizing the release of what the Hindus call Kundalini, this is it. "
But what I find interesting is that some have found the manifestions in the Florida Revival to be identical with the Hindu manifestations when they call for the "Kundalini" serpent spirit.
When you compare video side by side the jerking/swaying actions are identical.
(That Matrya(666)name is also associated with the Hindus.)
So you have this Serpent mound-aimed at the Solstice with the Crop circle pointing to the mound.
What I think may be the case is the Kundalini spirit manifesting it's self at this time may be an indication of the "spirit of the Anti-Christ."
So could it be that Satan who began on earth as a serpent will also end his time on earth as a serpent? (Once a serpent always a serpent?)
"The Milky Way is this serpent, and viewed at galactic central point near Sagittarius, this serpent eats its own tail. The Milky Way galaxy keeps a great time cycle that ends in catastrophic change. The sign of the Suntelia Aion is the sun rising out of the mouth of the ouroboros, which will occur on the winter solstice December 21, 2012 at 11:11 UT."
Cherokee Calendar
Prophecy: 2004 and 2012 bring an alignment both on the Cherokee Calendar and in the heavens of the Rattlesnake Constellation. It is the time of the doublehead serpent stick. Rattlesnake or serpent represents the human DNA biogenetic experiment.
More pictures of the serpent history
Evening, all,
I was reading the following opinion article at IsraelInsider and started to peruse the comment section that followed. I found a really interesting discussion going on between 2 (or more?) Jewish posters who are discussing their expectations for the coming "Son of David" whom they believe will come to power in Israel in the very near future. Some interesting (or sad, from our perspective) elements are that he will be human, not incarnate and one poster believs he will be from the US. Jim, you also might be interested because they discuss the Catholic church's role in their expectations (although not in a supportive light, I'll warn.) It gets very complicated at points because they reference various Jewish texts and prophesies that only a scholar would understand, but I still found it very fascinating to see how someone from a different religious belief than us is still looking toward the coming fulfillment of God's plan for Israel. Again, I find it very sad, as well, because their focus is misplaced on a savior for just their nation and not the whole world for eternity.
You can find the discussion at the end of this article:
Mr. Obama, Meet Mr. Jihadi
Blessings,
Jen
BTW-does anyone else find this type of thing fascinating?
Or am I boring you?
Read about this Dogon tribe in Africa. They lived on cliffs up to 2000 ft high until the soil was unproductive.
They most likely decended from from the Egyptions.
Dogon Tribe
After you read about them there is no doubt they had encountered fallen beings.
HI Jen, nice to see your post..the website looks interesting, too.
It is really interesting that 3 major religions are looking for a Messiah... and all 3 seem to think it will happen soon...the Jews, Christians and Moslems.
I hope all of your little kiddies are doing well! and you and your husband, too.
Jib, Shalom! I thought the Obama symbol article was interesting, but not particularly threatening. As Lisa says, marketing/branding. He's the presumptive nominee, not the de jure nominee. There's still a chance (a slim one, but still a chance -- they may catch him in bed with a dead girl or a live boy) (Then again, he could probably spin the live boy into an asset) that he'll lose the nomination to Clinton. Since he's not the overwhelming pick of the party, trademarking his plane with the "O" might be seen as a mark of modesty. The key would be to see if he changes the tail marking after he gets the nomination. (Almost wrote "monarchy" there...)
I'm really bumbed out about Obama's birth certificate (or lack thereof). Part of me can see the "standing up for principle" sort of thing, telling his opponents to BACK OFF I'M A US CITIZEN. On the other hand, being president means dealing with a whole lot of people that you just plain don't like, and you can't always ignore them. What will he do when Congress gets uppity? McCain, Huckabee, Clinton -- I can see why they might be upset if someone demanded to see their birth certificate. Obama, on the other hand, has spent a good portion of his youth outside the US with a foreign national for a father. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask him to pony up a certified copy of his birth certificate -- especially since he seems so hesitant to do it.
I've figured out how Obama could have gone so long being an American without being an American. The right-wing nut jobs say that he was born either in Canada or Kenya. (I'm holding out for Canada.) He can't derive US citizenship through his mother because she didn't meet the residency requirements. His mother can't take him to Kenya to be with the father because he needs to be on her passport (as a "family passport"). So what does she do? She calls her Mom in Hawaii, who calls some friends, who send her a hospital birth certificate. These are meant to be souvenirs, something to put in the Baby Book. However, up until at least 1986, the State of Kansas accepted these unofficial certificates as proof of birth. (I checked with my ex, who worked for the Kansas division that handled these things.) I would wager that in the early '60s the State Department would too. (Hey, why not? She's only 18, she's white, the daddy's black, and it's not like this kid is ever gonna run for president, fercryinoutloud.) This might especially be the case if she got her passport changed while in Canada ("Yeah, I know this isn't his original birth certificate, but I figured it was safer traveling with this, you know?").
Once she has Obama on her passport, that's it. He's in. Every 5 years she gets the family passport renewed, using the old passport as proof of citizenship. When he turned 14, he would get his own passport, again using the old passport as proof of citizenship. From then on all he had to do is keep the passport current, and he never has to have a certified copy of his birth certificate again since the passport is proof of citizenship. Obama never served in the military (and even then, they would probably accept the passport), and has never had to obtain any kind of security clearance which would REQUIRE him to produce a certified copy of his birth certificate (even if he has a passport).
My only question is how long it's going to be before someone files a lawsuit requiring him to produce his birth certificate (i.e., require him to prove he meets the legal requirements for being President.)
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Here is an animal I've never seen before!
when dingos were introduced into their territory, they over ran the area and ate all of the prey, leaving these creatures (which are tazmanian wolves)to starve to death.
Jim,
Looks like a good book! I'll check out Amazon.
Jim C,
I found this website regarding Obama's birth certificate.
Kathy
2 problems
daily kos is run by left wing nut jobs who support Obama so therefore I would view their support and any documents published with a jaundiced eye.
2-the reason Jim is discussing it is because an Israeli document person who has no vested interest per se in our election says that the document that is on the Daily Kos is forged and-I linked to the article earlier on this posting session. the article has pictures etc.
Lisa, Shalom! FYI, I find these subject fascinating! It's why I started posting on Joel's site to begin with.
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it may be "branding/marketing" but it is the underlying attitude with the plane and the seal that has me concerned. People will think it's just a marketing thing but I think there is a darker underlying message in it.
Hi Donna,
Yes, still here, just busier than I've been in a long time.
Kids are doing well...potty training has all but wrapped up, preschool begins in a month, I'm dipping my toe back in the teaching waters with a 1-day "tot time" class I'll be instructing while the kids are in their class, I'm helping to organize volunteers for a new triplet family (the Lord provided over 20 ladies who want to help so it's alot of hours on the phone, etc. to get everything lined up) and I'm the unofficial family historian and so it falls on me to organize the yearly reunion which is 4 hours away and involves over 100 people coming into town from various states and needing housing, food, entertainment, etc. Somehow I went from being fairly free to being nearly overwhelmed by all the activities I'm involved in.
But everything is going smoothly so I am thankful for the opportunity each one presents.
Lots of new kid pix at my blog if you want to see how we're looking these days :-)
Blessings,
Jen
Jim C.
Look @ the parallels. (All this Bible research has been getting me fine tuned to spot them.)The second I read it I thought of Bentley's "Winds of Change".
Of course I like Mark's interpertation better!
Mark Mallett-Trumpet 5 article.
He was driving in his car:
"And the words came…
"The winds of change have begun to blow again."
The “healing revival” started by Todd Bentley that is currently taking place in Florida began with a demonic appearance by a spirit calling itself the “Winds of Change.”
From P.Miller:
You’d have to be living on another planet to not be aware of how much we are hearing the word ‘Change’…not only from politicians but from new age gurus and the false prophets promoting this ‘third wave’ teaching. There’s a change coming all-right, but I don’t think its what these folks are expecting
Jim G.
OK I see what's up with Rick Warren hosting the Presidential nominees.
Rick Warren Joins Tony Blair’s Faith Foundation Which Seeks to Bring “Abrahamic Groups Together”
"Today the news was announced that Rick Warren is on the Advisory Council for Tony Blair’s new Faith Foundation which promises to bring the Abrahamic faiths together to fight social ills. Tony Blair’s group is designed to fulfill the United Nations’ Millennium Goals."
Anyone else see the writing on the wall? This is getting spookier by the second.
Spero news article: (Blair)
"While he believes faith groups do "great individual work in this area", "they could do even more if helped also to combine together." In his own words "it would be a great example of faith in action to try to bridge the gap and awaken the world’s conscience".
The foundation will concentrate, in the immediate term, on the six main faiths, the Abrahamic three and Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism.
Blair believes that for religion to be a positive force for good, it must be rescued not simply from extremism – faith as a means of exclusion; but also from irrelevance.
In an era of globalisation, there is nothing more important than getting people of different faiths and therefore cultures to understand each other better and live in peace and mutual respect; and to give faith itself its proper place in the future.”
Didn't I post something recently about 8/8/08? Some things are predicted to happen on that day?
Here is a political group who is trying to force the govt. to release the info on the UFO's. 8/8/08 is a special day for them.
Since other countries are starting to let loose-it's only a matter of time now.
With everything else going on-"collectively"- these bug eyed beings are going to surface. There is just too much demonic activity going on right now to shrug it off.
Overcomer, Shalom! Actually, it was that "Daily Kos" website that started the whole problem. In the last blog Jib posted a link to the July 20 issue of Israel Insider that had an article, Document forensics expert: Obama "birth certificate" a "horrible forgery". In short, someone had posted a photoshopped image that was supposed to be Obama's BC. In short, it wasn't. It didn't even have the seal and signature a real one is supposed to have. (It also has a lot of other problems, like describing the father's race as "Black." Back in the 60's, he would have been described as "Negro.") The problem is that one of Obama's campaign flunkies insisted to the LA Times that this was the real and valid BC. Two days later the head of the Hawaiian Dept. of Vital Statistics said that they could not verify that the image the Daily Kos had posted was in fact a valid birth certificate.
So now people in the blogosphere are starting to ask WHY Obama won't just pony up the $10 and get a certified copy of his BC. The MSM doesn't want to cover this because of all the rumors earlier about Obama being a Muslim, and they don't want to feed the nutcakes, but more and more people are starting to ask questions.
Two possible reasons Obama doesn't want to do this: First is that it may not exist. If he wasn't born in Hawaii as he's claimed, then where WAS he born? Without the birth certificate, how does Obama get to prove that he is a natural born citizen? Second, it may be that Obama's father is not listed as "Negro" but "Arab." This would totally blow his image away. Sure, he gets to be the first Arab-American president, but his entire identity has been wrapped up in being black.
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Lisa, Shalom! Just two things:
1. In your message of 8:48 PM, you said Look @ the parallels. ... The second I read it I thought of Bentley's "Winds of Change". There's been so much back and forth I'm confused. Which parallels and what did you read?
2. As for 08/08/2008, apparently that series of numbers is a bad luck combination in Chinese numerology.
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Evangelical Manifesto Document
"Not to Attack or Exclude"
Lighthouse Article
Deepak Chopeahas a book out called“In The Third Jesus, bestselling author and spiritual leader Deepak Chopra provides an answer to this question that is both a challenge to current systems of belief and a fresh perspective on what Jesus can teach us all, regardless of our religious background. There is not one Jesus, Chopra writes, but three.
First, there is the historical Jesus, the man who lived more than two thousand years ago and whose teachings are the foundation of Christian theology and thought. Next there is Jesus the Son of God, who has come to embody an institutional religion with specific dogma, a priesthood, and devout believers. And finally, there is the third Jesus, the cosmic Christ, the spiritual guide whose teaching embraces all humanity, not just the church built in his name. He speaks to the individual who wants to find God as a personal experience, to attain what some might call grace, or God-consciousness, or enlightenment.”
Jim C:
Mark Mallett:
"The winds of change have begun to blow again."
Todd Bentley:
demonic appearance by a spirit calling itself the “Winds of Change.”
Bob Jones:“On New Year’s Eve, for 2008, God told Bob Jones that ‘the third wave was coming & is the “Winds of Change."
Obama:
"Change we can believe in"
Oprah:
“‘Do you need to change your life,’ asks Oprah Winfrey.(The Secret)
I love rapture dialogues Mac.
I know you do, Kathy. I don’t mind it either. But some people do get uncomfortable with certain subjects and don’t like to be challenged, as we’ve seen here before. I suspect that when that happens, some retreat into the background and stop posting. And Alesia knows well that I can be a little pot stirrer when I’ve had too much coffee (or not enough) - it’s a bad trait of mine. Plus, apparently, sometimes I come across as caustic when I actually am teasing.
I was doing some thinking as I was weeding my garden. I do my best thinking in my garden, and I hate gardening! It doesn’t matter so much what we believe about the timing of the rapture – what matters most is what we are doing with our time here. Are we good stewards?
I posted the Don Koenig article the other day because Alesia and I were discussing just how near or far the Lord could be and what are we doing with our “Commission”! I must confess that I get uncomfortable when I think of that. What is more important – arguing about certain tangential beliefs or spreading the Gospel to those who need it? I’m afraid I’m a lousy witness and I’ll probably be hiding in a corner somewhere at the Bema judgement.
The cave is nice and cosy (even though some have stopped posting) but I really miss Joel’s because at least there was a potential to reach the unsaved there.
I often wonder if there could be a possibility of setting up a mirror site to Joel’s but I also wonder whether we could establish a blog that reaches the unsaved solely for the purpose of witnessing.
Alesia and I have discussed this many times but we haven’t come up with anything - although her blog site really rocks.
Does anyone have any ideas? Our purpose is to witness to the unsaved. I’d love to have a blog that is transparent enough that unsaved people read it and that we all can contribute to. What do you all think? That goes for all who may read here but don’t comment anymore. There must be something we can all do.
Thanks for clarifying Jim C and Joyce.
Mac,
I do tend to get passionate about what I regard as Biblical truth. If the rapture occurs at the close of the tribulation as I understand Scripture to teach (but before the end of D's 70th week) it has huge ramifications. The church in America is horribly unprepared. Take my passion and look at it as love for you all because I want us to be prepared. I know it is frightening to think about. In the meantime, we continue to throw out the seed as the Holy Spirit prepares hearts...
In fact, I can't remember whether I told you or not, until relatively recently, I was a Post-Tribber. I have to disaggree with you there, Kathy. Our priority is bringing people to Christ and He takes care of the rest. America will remain unprepared while she rejects the Lord.
I should say, witnessing to people not bringing people to Christ. You're quite correct, the Holy Spirit does the rest. But we should be witnessing!
Nate, you out there? Haven't heard from you for a while. Hope all is well.
Do We Really Love Christ?
Mac,
The Great Commission is in effect up until the end of the age. But as we see "the day" drawing near, we are to encourage one another and stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together. We throw seed and we watch, we watch and we throw seed, and we encourage and love one another.
Turning in...I have to count a zillion coins tomorrow...VBS...mission's project fund raiser! I love those kids!!!
I very much appreciate these rapture discussions. I don't have much to say but I'm definitely reading them. Mac, Kathy, and others who have posted on the subject, please don't be afraid that you're offending me. It's not like I'm going to run off and hide in a cave or something;-)
Just a thought. I wonder how others feel about this. I tend to be more convinced by theological and doctrinal positions that follow the principle commonly called Occam's razor. That is, the simpler, more straightforward and direct explanations are better. I don't know that anyone has ever used Occam's razor as a way to choose between two or more competing interpretations of Scripture.
I find both the pre-wrath position (with which I share with Kathy) and the position that Scripture indicates true believers can in fact apostacize or stop abiding in Christ (a position I share with Lisa) as doctrinal positions that take the least amount of mental gymnastics to justify.
Now, I must admit that I may be wrong about either of these. That is the assumption that this is a good approach to deciding between competing doctrines that both have Scriptural support as well as my assessment of these two particular doctrines.
Anyway, I wondered what others might think about the principle (even if you have a reach a different doctrinal conclusion than I do when employing it).
Sorry for not proofreading but I trust you could figure out what I was trying to say. Better hit the hay myself.
Jim, actually using Occam's razor led me to a Post-Trib position soon after leaving my New Age beliefs. Back then, however, it was the Preterist/Premillennialist debates that really interested me. It was only going back and forth between the different views that made me lean towards Pre-Trib. I also think Soteriology is a subject that shouldn’t be approached using Occam’s razor. I wonder if the Rabbis, using Occam’s razor on OT prophecies, would have figured out that the Messiah would come more than once in two different roles. Instead, some of them thought there were going to be two Messiahs. I’m sure that in some instances Occam’s method is viable. We’ll have to check with William Lane Craig.
Regarding discussion of the rapture, I admit I sometimes just skim over it. Some points I've heard over and over. But, that's just me, I don't mind doing that.
Here's my way of thinking. I don't know when the rapture will occur. But, I'm preparing myself as best I can, spiritually and physically, for the possibility of pre-wrath. God will do what God will do regardless of my interpretation and understanding of the scriptures and so I believe it's important to prepare to meet Him at any time. (I fail at this often, and pick myself up, repent and go again)
Corrie ten Boom made the comment that the pre-trib view is dangerous because she saw how many Chinese Christians, when faced with persecution, lost faith because they thought God would not allow them to go through such tribulation. While I don't go to such lengths as viewing the view as dangerous, I get the point. So often I hear believers say things like "you go ahead and believe you're going to go through all that, I'm going with Jesus". To which I reply, you'll go up with Jesus when you are called, no matter your stance.
Or they might say they can't see the Lord allowing them to suffer like that. What about all those who have suffered unspeakable things, like Corrie and her sister Betsy? Was their faith lacking? Did God's love fail? No, sometimes we as believers suffer. And that is why I think it's important to consider the possibility of the pre-wrath or any other type of persecution. Maybe this isn't really the end times, in spite of all the signs. I believe it is, but I'm also prepared for the possibility that it's just a really awful time in history in which we believers will be persecuted severely.
Mac, on the idea of reaching the unsaved, I agree. I wish we could still post at Joel's and keep this cave as a refuge. Maybe there is another blog which has a following of believers and non believers which we could infiltrate? One that has a theme similar to Joel's? Sneaky, eh?
Also, I wonder if some of you who just read the comments and seldom or never post would mind just popping in now and again to just say "still here"? I often wonder who's out there. You wouldn't have to get into the messy debates we sometimes have, just let us know of your presence.
Nate, I've been missing you, too.
Jim G
funny from my perspective both your views require mental gymnastics and neither are as straightforward as you seem to think. if you want to say your eternal security brethren overlook scripture we'd have to say the same about the folks who think people can lose their salvation. scholars on both sides have debated this topic for some time and both sides can come up with scripture to support their views so please don't try to tell me that your view is the only one which has scripture to back it up, or that it doesn't require mental gymnastics. You might want to say that we are ignoring all the verses that point to your view point but we can make the equally valid statement that you also are ignoring the scripture that points to our view point-which means you are engaging in mental gymnastics.
I would have to say the same thing about the different rapture view points as well.
That is why such discussions to a certain extent are fruitless because both sides say they have scripture to support it. We can't all be right and I suspect that we'll find out someday who was right or if both of us are right-I believe Wayne recently suggested that regarding some of our recent discussions regarding salvation.
Anne
my thoughts regarding tribulation and The tribulation. God never promised us that we wouldn't go through times of trial-that's pretty clear from scripture (although I'm in a hurry this AM and don't have time to look up everything) as is the thought that God will be with us through those times. What I think stumps us is the difference between tribulation with a small t and tribulation with a big T. If one fully comprehends the difference, being pre trib isn't dangerous. While we do have tribulation even to the point of death now I would venture to say that compared to what will be going on during THE Tribulation it would be considered minor. I'm not trying to downplay the very real suffering that is going on now, just suggesting that I think we have a very limited view on just how bad THE Tribulation will get. Sometimes God uses fiery testing to purify us but THE Tribulation for the most part is to purify Israel as a nation and in part to judge the nations for their treatment of her both past and in that present. our tribulations now tend to be an individual thing, they may or may not be perceived as judgment and others can be somewhat involved but not directly per se. For example Corrie Ten Boom and her sister being in a concentration camp affected really no one but her and her sister adversely. It didn't affect anyone else adversely anywhere else. That isn't to say they didn't suffer horribly but just to say-hey it affected them period. the judgments of THE Tribulation however will affect people corporately and all over the world at the same time. if you take what is described for judgments in the tribulation literally, they will be on a scale unlike anything this earth has ever seen in history.
I would also note that such a site as proposed by Mac would be a great idea. just one problem-our rather messy theological debates kept cropping up at Joel's, although to a lesser extent after we had the cave, and I think is part of what got his site canned in the first place. It does give the perception of divisiveness rather than unity and to an unsaved person looking at such a debate our faith might be considered unattractive. I was as guilty as the rest because some like Terrorsita where spewing wrong doctrine which most felt had to be corrected and couldn't go unchallenged. the problem is we had that view of those who held different views on timing of the rapture as well.
food for thought today.
Hi Guys,
Just got back from holiday! Adi had her 3 monthly tests and has been declared cancer free for the next 3, praise The Lord! Things very hectic and I have loads of catching up to do. Some very good and interesting topics, so keep them rolling.
Yours in Christ
jeri.
In light of our discussions:
"Bentley's spirit one time left his body and he found himself in the Himalayan mountains conversing with Indian Christian mystic Sadhu Sundhar Singh, who he learned the practice of contemplative prayer from. This same Singh believe in universalism, that no matter what people believe in the end all will be in heaven with out any eternal consequence for their sins."
Jim G,
Mental gymnastics can be good! Sometimes it takes digging deeper to find the common denominator that makes all the contradictions disappear. That is why I now hold to the prewrath position.
Joyce, I don't see the Great Tribulation as God's judgment. That's what I understand God's wrath to be for. I do see a difference between the two. I don't see the entire 70th Week of D as God's wrath, nor as persecution against believers. It starts out peaceful with the signing of the covenant. The covenant is broken midway through. The church and Israel then undergo the greatest persecution to come upon the world, and then the Lord says enough is enough, it's time now for my vengeance. He did say he would repay someday. But to say the Great Tribulation is His judgment/vengeance puts believers in direct line with His wrath when He promises that we will not endure it.
If we were to have a new site, I think we'd definitely have to set some guidelines, and save our wrangling over Scripture here.
I'm off to count zillions of coins!
Jeri - PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!!!
That's FANTASTIC news.
I have to tell ya, your timing freaks me out a bit.
You & Adi were on my mind this morning & I wanted to send a shout out & didn't have time. The same thing happened last time you posted - Mac & I were wondering how you were doing & lo & behold you posted!
I'm so happy for you all - our God is awesome!
Two more cents worth and then I'm off. We know Scripture does not contradict itself so as far as God's will vs. man's choice in relation to salvation I think we are just getting it from two different perspectives. I choose to follow His call but after growing in my knowledge of Him and His Word I now see that it was actually Him who found me! And Jim G, I still believe we can't walk away from God's work of salvation in our lives. Our faith will show different levels of obedience and our fruit may be rather puny at times, but once He's placed us into His Body, we're His forever!
What if we had a site re:
"Signs of the End Times" where all the Biblical prophesies are listed
and we try to keep it on topic.(Have links/videos to the other good endtimes sites-like Alesia's)
It could even mention how we come together on Joel Rosenburg's site & that the goal is to expand our fellowship & reach others.
Post a statement of faith-& take the prophesies literally as I think most of us here do. Someone made a list & I think there are 800Biblical Prophesies fullfilled and around 200 yet to be fullfilled.
Then people can feel free to post what they find on these topics?
Natural Disasters
Middle East
Globalism
Mark of the Beast
Falling Away
False Prophets
Etc..
***And if someone becomes unruly or a pest-they can be blocked out from posting.Reading-ok.
At the rate it's going-I don't know how much more time we have to
publically post without
compromising & apologizing for our faith like the "Evangelical Manifesto." Universalism married w/Political Correctness looks to be the driving force to quiet the Bible believing Christians.
I'm sooo behind on things I wanted to comment on....
MAC - Atta boy! ;-)
Great links you've been posting as well.
Might still need to go easy on the coffee though, you little instigator. lol
Jib - The "O" logo IS freaky!
Jim - I think she would have been far more noble if she had proclaimed never to renounce Jesus & let them kill her.
I can not be judgmental about the suicide/rape scenario, knowing people reacte differently.
However, I would never kill myself to fore-go torture. Especially in that instance, if we were put in camps, for instance, there may be opportunities to help someone. That's why I wouldn't do it, personally.
Lisa - Great links
This is great! Todd Bentley's Angel Emma had a SEX CHANGE! (I guess he got too much flack from people calling him out on that one!)
EMMA SEX CHANGE
Jeff Jansen describes meeting another female angel ‘Wisdom’, followed by the notorious female angel Emma, so rejected and spurned by Todd Bentley recently.
He also describes Randy DeMain and others of the apostolic-prophetic movement meeting this angel Emma!
Mac,
I read this the other day about The Bride of Christ Pat Holiday wrote.
It is a good description about what the "Bride of Christ" represents to the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb." The detail begins around page 8.
Mac & others:
What I'm trying to figure out if this is true:
"I believe that, in the same fashion, a portion of the body of Christ, which is the church, will be presented by God as a bride to his Son."
Pat Holiday
Is the Bride the Whole Church-those who are prepared & ready? Or as she says the Bride is a portion of the Church-the creme de la creme?
My mind flashes to Rev 3-and those who are spared from the testing of the Tribulation and the rest of the Church who will be tested & refined as they go through the Tribulation. So it does make some sense to me although it's not how I thought about it before.
Shalom, all! Wow! So many things to comment on, so many chores I want to avoid doing!
Jeri, that is blessed news! I'll make sure to offer a prayer of thanks during our congregation's petitions next Sunday!
Jib and Anne, the reasons you gave are the same reasons why the RCC rejects the idea of any kind of rapture before Christ returns to earth.
Jen, finally got to read that article you linked to yesterday (Mr. Obama, Meet Mr. Jihadi) as well as the discussion posted after the article. I wanted to ask that one guy, if the US is under the control of Pope Benedict, why are we still having abortions in this country? I also found their views about the Messiah very interesting -- that the Messiah is among us as a Torah-observant Jew, that he is a mortal man and will die a mortal death, etc. I get the feeling they believe that once the Messiah arrives and sets up the kingdom of Israel, after he dies Israel will be under the control of G_D, as it was before the Israelites wanted a king like all the other countries had. One of them kept mentioning the 24th day of the 9th month of this year -- that would be Dec. 21 in the Gregorian calendar. I'll see if I can figure out what he's talking about. (Maybe I should just ask him?)
<><
Hi Jim C.,
Yes, I had lots of questions, too, but I realized I was in way over my head in terms of understanding even 1/10th of what they were discussing. However, I'm very glad I stumbled upon their discussion because it gave a real-life example of what the "expectant" Jewish community is thinking/paying attention to, etc. I've had Jewish neighbors, Jewish doctors, Jewish colleagues, etc. but none that I know of were very involved in the future of their faith and what the rest of the story was going to be (props to Paul Harvey there :-) All those I have known were either completely secular and Jewish only when it came time for BarMitzvah (our neighbors actually flew in a rabbi from Florida to perform their son's ceremony because none of the local ones would perform it unless the family became members of their synagogue first. I actually - no kidding - suspect that this family might be in the witness protection program because NOTHING about them appears genuinely Jewish and EVERYTHING about them hints at the darker side of the Italian life. The stories I can tell!) All the other Jewish people I've knows were concerned about upholding the laws and traditions of the past. So to read someone of the Jewish faith discuss their eschatology in "real time" was quite interesting. And, as I said, also sad at the same time. Please let us know if you do make any inquiries. The one guy seemed quite versed in the Christian view of Messiah and said he wasn't going to be swayed, but he seemed respectful enough of our views.
Blessings,
Jen
Jen, Shalom! Yes, I'll try asking them some questions. As for some of the things they were discussing, I know the "Niviit" are the prophetic books of the Old Testament, and "Gematria" is Kabalistic numerology. (If you want, go to this site, and download broadcast #13, dated Jan. 28, 2008. These two guys talk about how the gematria for both Obama and Hillary are both bad for Israel.) And as for your Jewish neighbors being in Witness Protection and maybe Italian, you don't have to be Italian to be in the Mob. Meyer Lansky was big in the New York organization -- so much so that in the 1970's he used the "Right of Return" and moved there to keep out of jail. (He was extradited to the US two years later, but was found not guilty during his trial.)
Lisa, Shalom! Thanks for clearing up my confusion about your postings last night. And thanks, also, for posting the link to that P. Miller article. I was real disappointed seeing that "God" told Bob Jones that Des Moines, IA was first on the revival hit list. I had always thought Iowans were more sensible than that. You can bet if this is the case, it will definitely make the news: the name of the Society for Creative Anachronism group in Des Moines is a french phrase that means, "Heart of Boredom." Des Moines is very stable and laid back. I think that's because it is the city in America with the second-greatest number of insurance companies (Hartford, CT has the most), and insurance companies don't make a lot of money by being adventurous. For a "revival" of the type in Lakeland, FL to happen in Des Moines; well, it just isn't done. Wouldn't be proper.
But, just to be on the safe side, I think I'd better write a letter to the bishop of Des Moines and give him a heads-up.
Also, regarding a "Signs of the End Times" site: I've got a perfectly good blog ("Crazy Uncle") that I have yet to use. I started it so I could write more about the stuff I was sending to my family, but I haven't fell compelled to write much lately, so it's just sitting there. However, it sounds more like you'd want to set up a BBS or Chat Board. I think I can do that with stuff I have laying around the house. If you want, we could start communicating on the Blog, and then move over to the BBS once I get things figured out.
Lisa,
There is one bride of Christ, the true church. We are all perfect in our position and standing in Christ at the moment we are granted salvation but not all at the same level as far as our practice and obedience. Paul told the Thessalonians that at the Lord's coming/parousia the dead in Christ will rise first and those who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. He's not going to take some because their level of obedience and faithfulness was greater and leave others behind. The million dollar question is, "When is He coming?" I believe it is at the end of the age. He said He would be with us until then. Since Mt. 24 is an end of the age passage and also mentions His coming/parousia, that is one of the reasons why I see it as a rapture passage. What I see regarding the faithful church in Rev. 3 is that they are the prepared. They've watched for the signs, they've heeded Christ's warnings, and because of their faithfulness He will provide protection within the sphere of danger during the great tribulation. They will be among those who are alive and remain at His coming. All seven churches are called to overcome. What do you think it is that they are called to overcome? In Rev. 2:26 Jesus says "he who overcomes, and he who keeps my deeds until "the end..." The end of what? I believe this is a reference to the end of the age, when Christ returns and cuts short the days of great tribulation against the elect. How are we overcomers? Rev. 12:11 tells us that it is because of the blood of the Lamb. Overcomers are the true believers, the ones who do not apostatize or fall away. They maintain their testimony clear to the end. The gospel fell on hearts of good soil which the Holy Spirit had prepared. That is why they endure to the end or do not love their life even to death.
Don't really have a lot of time to get too detailed...
I think some have missed the point that Mac was trying to make regarding the challenges of starting a new site to witness to the unsaved/new Christians.
Starting an "End-times" site really isn't going to achieve our objective because it will already cater to biblically minded (for lack of a better word) person.
Joel's site was successful because his books were suspense novels, with current events & the bible prophesy mixed in. Many of his readers were/are perhaps not all that "Christian". We were able to witness to those folks (I was one of em) & have people interested that were not actively seeking Christianity per se.
That's how we should be thinking about a new site to witness to unbelievers or new christians - find topics that are not overtly religious to pique their interest.
Sorry if I am ramblin/babbling, don't really have time right now But wanted to get that out before anyone starts putting much effort into something.
Luckily, I had this in my favorites - there was this site I found months ago that may help with our dilemma...
http://ied.gospelcom.net/blogging.php
sorry - have to cut & paste - me busy.
Hi Jim,
Good points...I recall in the Godfather that Vito had Tom Hagen as his family consigliere and in The Sopranos there was a similar character but of Jewish background. More food for thought...
There's a mafia connection in my own paternal family (in the Pittsburgh steel mill scene) although we always did our best to
keep a good distance between those branches. Uncle Oscar's son died of "suspicious causes" so we didn't want anyone mixing us up with them!
Jen
Jen, Shalom!
WOW!
Jen, I didn't have to ask those guys on Israel Insider about "the 24th of the 9th month" (24 Kislev). I did some digging and found out myself. It's from the book of the prophet Haggai, and it's about rebuilding the Temple! Haggai is exhorting the people to get to work and stop wasting time: Is it time for you to dwell in your own paneled houses, while this house lies in ruins?.
There are four dates mentioned in the book. It starts out with the first day of the sixth month (1 Elul), which this year is on 1 Sept. What's really significant are verses 9-11:
You expected much, but it came to little; and what you brought home, I blew away. For what cause? says the LORD of hosts. Because my house lies in ruins, while each of you hurries to his own house. Therefore the heavens withheld from you their dew, and the earth her crops. And I called for a drought upon the land and upon the mountains; Upon the grain, and upon the wine, and upon the oil, and upon all that the ground brings forth; Upon men and upon beasts, and upon all that is produced by hand. (More on this in a moment.)
The next date is "the twenty-fourth day of the sixth month," when the people got off their duffs and started gathering all the pieces. 24 Elul is on 24 Sept. this year.
The third date listed is "the twenty-first day of the seventh month" -- 21 Tishrei is 20 Oct. this year. I should note that in the Jewish calendar 1 Tishrei is the first day of the calendar year, when the years change (i.e., on 30 Sept. 2008, the Jewish calendar will change from the year 5768 to 5769.) On this date (21 Tishrei), Haggai cheered on the people, saying, This is the pact that I made with you when you came out of Egypt, And my spirit continues in your midst; do not fear! For thus says the LORD of hosts: One moment yet, a little while, and I will shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. I will shake all the nations, and the treasures of all the nations will come in, And I will fill this house with glory, says the LORD of hosts.
Finally, the forth date listed is the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month -- 24 Kislev is 21 December this year. This date marks the beginning of the construction of the Second Temple: (Consider from this day forward: from the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month. From the day on which the temple of the LORD was founded, consider!) IN ADDITION, a few verses later on down, it says Tell this to Zerubbabel, the governor of Judah: I will shake the heavens and the earth; I will overthrow the thrones of kingdoms, destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations. I will overthrow the chariots and their riders, and the riders with their horses shall go down by one another's sword.
So, apparently ABCARO on Israeli Insider believes that on Dec. 21 this year, the Messiah will return, destroy Israel's enemies, and start rebuilding the temple. Frankly, I don't see it, but I'm going to keep my options open.
<><
OH, silly me...
I told you there would be more later about that drought that I highlighted in my previous message. I want to refer you to this web site: Pope's tree flourishes while others wither
Jerusalem, Jul 22, 2008 / 02:06 pm (CNA).- In the Jubilee Year of 2000, Pope John Paul II made a pilgrimage to the Holy Land stopping at one point to bless an olive tree on the Mount of the Beatitudes. A forester with the Jewish National Fund reports that this tree is the only one producing olives this year.
"It is a miracle," Yossi Karni from the JNF, which maintains the plot, told local media.
...
Israel is currently facing what Uri Shani, Israel’s Water Authority director, called “the worst crisis in 80 years.” “Israel's major sources of drinking water, including the Sea of Galilee and the mountain aquifer, are below their ‘red lines,’ meaning they are not recommended to draw water,” he said at a news conference last month.
The point isn't that of all the trees in this grove only the one blessed by the Pope is thriving (although I DO find that interesting), it's that Israel is going through a drought, just like the one mentioned in Haggai 1:9-11.
<><
Lisa wrote:
"Is the Bride the Whole Church-those who are prepared & ready? Or as she says the Bride is a portion of the Church-the creme de la creme?
My mind flashes to Rev 3-and those who are spared from the testing of the Tribulation and the rest of the Church who will be tested & refined as they go through the Tribulation. So it does make some sense to me although it's not how I thought about it before."
EXCELLENT question! That is something that I have always pondered because I know that I am not the creme de la creme!
However, I am always confessing and humbly turning, even if I fall on my face again!
What is that answer to that? I think the answer to that would resolve the heart issue of alot of debate about what being a Christian is all about.
By the way, consider this my "popping in". I read always and comment occasionally!
Grace
Grace, thanks for popping in!
Anyone else care to just say hi, I'm still here?
But, I'm preparing myself as best I can, spiritually and physically, for the possibility of pre-wrath.
Anne, don't forget the possibility of Post-Trib! The Pre-Wrath people just may get a shock!
;-)
Jeri, praise God for your news and thanks for popping in.
Alesia is right. We need to get out there and witness to people who haven't come to Christ yet. Blogs on eschatology only reach those who are already (presumably) saved. I don't have any answers yet. I'll have to some more work out in the garden and see if I come up with a good idea. Praying helps!
And, yes, I agree, any blog should exclude eschatological & political debate.
Ok Mac,
In one sense of the word I am "post-trib" because I see the rapture cutting short or "ending" the great tribulation. But I'm outta here for God's wrath which comes after that!! =)
The friend at my church who encouraged me to study prewrath actually came to the prewrath position on a study with himself and two friends while he was in Israel. The three ended up calling the position "post-trib-pre-post". He came home and then discovered Marv Rosenthal's book and then Kristen's dad's book. What was that question you had regarding The Sign and the information you couldn't find? I can still ask Kristen about it for you if you want me to.
Kathy, thanks but don't worry about that question. I've researched it elsewhere and got my answers. It concerns the location of the church, in relation to Christ's location, after the rapture and during the rest of the 70th week.
Israel’s Growing Internal Threat
(Defense officials say new system could pose challenges to Israeli air strike on Iranian nuclear facilities, though setup, deployment time may take 6-12 months)
July 23….(YNET) Iran is set to receive an advanced Russian-made anti-aircraft system by year-end that could help fend off any preemptive strikes against its nuclear facilities, senior Israeli defense sources said on Wednesday. First delivery of the S-300 missile batteries was expected as soon as early September, one source said, though it could take six to 12 months for them to be deployed and operable, a possible reprieve for Israeli and American military planners. The new system is causing concern among Israel's security forces, and officials have previously stated that it has been proven very efficient against air strikes. This will pose new challenges for the Air Force (IAF) if it decides to attempt a strike on Iranian nuclear facilities. Iran, which already has TOR-M1 surface-to-air missiles from Russia, announced last December that an unspecified number of S-300s were on order. But Moscow denied there was any such deal. "There's no doubt that the S-300s would make an air attack more difficult," one defense official said. "But there's an answer for every counter-measure, and as far as we're concerned, the sooner the Iranians get the new system, the more time we will have to inspect the deployments and tactical doctrines. There's a learning curve." According to the official, it would take a year for Iran to deploy the S-300s and man them with trained operators. The US was also optimistic on this count. "Based on what I know, it's highly unlikely that those air defence missiles would be in Iranian hands any time soon," US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates said in a July 9 briefing. Robert Hewson, editor of Jane's Air-Launched Weapons, said: "The minimum work-up time to be comfortable with the system is six months, but more time is preferable." Hewson said the Iranian S-300 deal was being conducted via Belarus to afford discretion for Russia, which is already under Western scrutiny for helping Iran build a major atomic reactor. "Belarus is the proxy route whenever Russia wants to deny it is doing the sale. But nothing happens along that route without Moscow saying so," he said.
FOJ Note: Just in the past week, Russia has sold sophisticated military hardware to Venezuela, Libya, Sudan, and Iran. Ironically these are the exact same nations that are listed in Ezekiel’s prophecy in which Russia arms and guards its clients as they prepare for an assault on Israel. Coincidence or Biblical accuracy? ....Maybe not Venezuela.
Overcomer:
"All seven churches are called to overcome. What do you think it is that they are called to overcome?"
They are called to overcome the Tribulation, repent and correct what was brought out by God as unacceptable & the reason why they are not "kept from the hour of trial."
The people mentioned in these following verses will not have to go through the Tribulation because they are worthy & have nothing to repent of.
These are the "few" Christians I think will be "caught up" before the Tribulation.
Rev 3:4 There are a few names..not defiled..shall walk w/me in white..
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my command to preservere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial....
If they are not "caught up" then they are "kept from". But I think these are the ones spoken of in the rapture passages.
Other than the 144,000 I don't see anything mentioning that the Christians living during the Trib will be protected in any way.
The Trib is to test everyone on earth. God will save His faithful remnant from that test.
But as far as most professed Christians-I agree w/you that they will be going through the Trib.My reasoning-the 7 Churches.
Rapture
Sorry Alesia. Gulp.
Lisa, you might find this article interesting.
The Message to Philadelphia(Rev 3:7-13)
Obama Poster for His Berlin Appearance
Should have labeled that last one "Barak is blue in the face."
Anne,
I really appreciated your rapture related comments posted at 5:42am.
Thank you.
Jib and others,
I didn't intend to offend anyone when I made the comment at 12:16am about:
"...doctrinal positions that take the least amount of mental gymnastics to justify."
I was simply trying to articulate how my mind perceives certain doctrinal positions. In the next sentence, I did acknowledge that I could certainly be wrong.
I think there needs to be some line at which a doctrine takes so much effort and required such complicated explanations that it starts to lose its persuasive appeal.
Several of the follow up comments to my post did make me rethink this. Yes, Jesus often did say things that if we were to use the principle of Occam's razor, we would clearly fail to interpret what was said properly. I think perhaps that prophetic passages tend to be the most difficult to interpret with certainty. Parables are somewhat easier. Passages with straightforward instructions (the Law and the Epistles) are probably the least vague and difficult to discern (although we do debate about their proper application to believers). Historical passages may be the easiest.
These are generalizations I'm suggesting. Nothing in stone of course (other than the original and the replacement copy of the Ten Commandments).
If you think the book of Revelation happens generally in order-(I know it does skip back & forth in a couple spots) then already @ the 4th seal 1/4 of the earth's population is killed.That's about 1 billion people. The 5th seal the Martyrs are crying out.
If this isn't considered "testing" or "trial" then I don't know what is.
Rev 6:11 5th seal(Re:The Martyrs)....and it was said to them to rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were,was completed.
(Doesn't sound to me like any faithful Christians from Rev 3 are supernaturally protected within the sphere of danger here at all.)
Right after the 6th seal (if its in order) the 144,000 Jews are sealed.Would this be right around the 3.5 yr mark? If so then the previous seals may be opened in the so called "time of Peace."
He who overcomes-will overcome their "issues" He mentions to each of the Churches and will be spiritually saved & reign w/Christ. Although some may be alive to the end of the Tribulation I find the "overcome" statement to be a reference to their salvation because of the preceeding complaints against them.
The only one found right with God was the "Faithful Church" and a few out of the "Dead Church" oh and also some from "The Corrupt Church" as He says in verse 24..."I will put on you no other burdon." I think the burdon is the test of the Tribulation. Back up to verse 22.."into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds."
Then you've got the Trumpets going-1/3 of mankind is to be killed in the 6th trumpet alone.That will be about another Billion people.Now we are down do approx 1/2 of the earth's population.
So in my eyes- I'm not sure about the 3.5 yrs time of so called Peace. What will the Christians go through? I believe the "collective conscience" thing will be going strong. The Bible thumping Christians will be outcast & persecuted. Have a few nukes gone off in this period to get control of the globe? If the 1st 6 seals are opened in that time frame-pretty grim.
The 2nd 1/2 of the Tribulation Satan & his companions are kicked out of heaven he's after the Jews who are then protected in the wilderness.So then he's after the unprotected Christians. Rev 13:7 "It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them."
Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints;here are those who keep the commandments of God & the faith of Jesus...."Write:Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." Yes,says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors,and their works follow them."
Right before the Bowl judgments Rev 15:2 it appears that all the saints have been "reaped." After Babylon falls-the Marriage supper of the Lamb-then the saints come back w/Jesus on white horses.
Rev 3:10" Because you have kept my command to preservere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world,to test those who dwell on earth."
So as far as I can tell-the entire 70 weeks is the "hour of trial" and these particular Christians will be "kept from it."
When the rest "overcome" they will eventually join up with the other saints in heaven to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
Rev 7,8
"Let us be glad & rejoice & give Him glory, for the marriage supper of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.: And to her was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean & bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."
So far that's all I've got. This aint no party, This aint no disco,This aint no foolin around.
(obviously time for bed)
Mac - Interesting rapture "article" you posted at 8:52.
hmph!
Good one...
How can I make my prayers effective?
I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. As you make your requests, plead for God's mercy upon them, and give thanks. Pray this way for kings and all others who are in authority, so that we can live in peace and quietness, in godliness and dignity.
1 Timothy 2:1-2 NLT
Praying effectively
Paul urges Timothy to lift up requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving.
A request is a need, a deep desire for something we don't have—something only God can supply.
A prayer is a word of praise and adoration. A more accurate translation of this word from the original Greek might be to "worship in earnest."
Intercession is praying on behalf of others. Our prayers should regularly reflect this kind of selfless lifestyle.
Thanksgiving involved remembering those past prayers that have already been answered, acknowledging that we not only trust God's supremacy and involvement in our life but also how his hand has moved and guided us in the past.
When we pray effectively, we do more than communicate with God — we commune with him. We become one in mind and spirit and purpose. Today, let the focus of your prayer time be to connect with God in a very real and personal way, not as a slave would petition his master, but as a son would enjoy the company of a loving and gracious father.
Good Morning Everyone,
I enjoy dialogging with Lisa about the rapture and events surrounding it so if you are not of the same persuasion you can always skip over us!
Lisa,
Another million dollar question is how do all the seals line up with D's 70th Week? I have friends who believe the seals have already been opened, up to the 5th seal anyway. The 6th seal cannot be opened however until sometime after the midpoint of the Week if you compare Mt. 24 with Rev. 6. I'm referencing the sign in the sun moon and stars. In Mt. 24 it falls immediately after the great tribulation is cut short by Christ's return and gathering of the elect.
I also know others, and I have leaned this direction as well, that see the first seal opening around the beginning of the Week and then 2-5 run concurrent with the reign of AC. His reign begins at the midpoint, when he exalts himself in the temple as God. This is where I see the test (of Rev. 3:10) beginning. Will you align yourself with God or against God (with AC)? He begins his world wide reign of terror and starts his slaughtering of Israel and believers. It makes sense to me putting the 4th seal here along with the 5th seal, death and the martyrdom of the saints.
I have more that is bursting to come out but I must go get ready for VBS. I'll check back in this afternoon!
Have a great day Everyone!
Yes, mac, your rapture article at 8:52 was very enlightening! :)
Great prayer article, Alesia!
We should be praying for ALL people and ALL leaders and potential leaders.
Awesome news, Jeri! Praise God!
(tap tap tap) hello? (tap tap) is anybody home?
Well, I guess I'll just post this here then and leave...
U.S. government: We know parenting better than you
Proposals would give Washington unprecedented control over kids
The U.S. House of Representatives is scheduled to debate two bills that could give the federal government unprecedented control over the way parents raise their children – even providing funds for state workers to come into homes and screen babies for emotional and developmental problems.
The Pre-K Act (HR 3289) and the Education Begins at Home Act (HR 2343) are two bills geared toward military and families who fall below state poverty lines. The measures are said to be a way to prevent child abuse, close the achievement gap in education between poor and minority infants versus middle-class children and evaluate babies younger than 5 for medical conditions.
<><
"Yes, mac, your rapture article at 8:52 was very enlightening! :)"
Yes it conclusively disproves Pre-Wrath, doesn't it?
Well, I just finally ordered "The Silence is Broken" by Doug Bernier through a gift certificate I had.
I'm excited! As I recall, Mac said a while ago that he felt this book compared many of the endtime scenarios/ theories in a simple and clear format.
I read the first chapter online a while back and thought it was great!
Where is everyone? It sure is quiet here!
Maybe we're just holding our breath, waiting for something to happen...
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I'm here, guys. Popping in and out and trying to multi-task...not very well, mind you. How is everyone?
Germ’s miniature motor has a clutch - Bacterial flagellum: powered by an electric motor
The link above shows design by a Creator and is a sticking point for evolutionists.
How can you possibly trust a man who wears a shirt like that? And that smile – is that forced or what! Oy!
Karl Kruszelnicki: still missing the missing links
Donna - I just started reading "The Silence is Broken" too.
Well, actually that's not entirely true. I started it a few weeks ago & have only gotten to page one! I completely forgot all about it.
Thanks for reminding me to start reading again!
LOL
Time for a new one!
Grany
Your wish is my command - new post is up.
Mac, yes it does prove the pre-wrath theory is wrong!!! Oh, I love the debates and one thing for sure, it could go on forever and ever but according to the scriptures, before we leave this earth in our Gospel Shout, we, the Body of Christ, will be without spot or blemish and to me that means no more bad doctrine. Only the Way it Is according to The Holy Spirit. Then we get our new bodies and I am already putting in my specs for mine. Perfect sight, hearing and no more pain.
Oh, by the way, Latte will be served prior to the Great Tribulation in the Heavenly Cafe Hallelujah! Joyce and I will be serving! Anyone else want to sign up for KP duty?
Grany
Shalom, all! I thought I'd break the silence by giving the latest results of the question I posed on the "Moral Theology" section of the Catholic Answers forum, "Is Suicide acceptable to avoid Rape?"
A couple of days ago (on the 21st) I gave the consensus opinion that it might be sinful, but it depends on things like the level of duress. Well, after I had posted that summary, the thread on Catholic Answers exploded, with 36 different responses, all citing history, example, Church Fathers, and various theologians. The consensus NOW is that it is NOT acceptable. You can read the whole blessed debate here.
Included is a whole section from St. Augustine on the question. Since he wrote in the third century, when persecutions were still fresh in the minds of his readers, his opinion carries some weight. (His writing is rather "thick", so have some strong coffee handy before you try to read it.) Trying to summarize his views:
1. Suicide at all times is a great evil. It is "an attempt against the dominion and right of ownership of the Creator." This is also why it is your duty to try and preserve your life.
2. Rape does not destroy a woman's chastity or her virtue, since it is an act done against her will. On the other hand, she would lose her own virtue if she had chosen to let herself be seduced, even if the seduction was not completed. "Let us rather draw this conclusion, that while the sanctity of the soul remains even when the body is violated, the sanctity of the body is not lost; and that, in like manner, the sanctity of the body is lost when the sanctity of the soul is violated, though the body itself remains intact."
3. "And therefore a woman who has been violated by the sin of another, and without any consent of her own, has no cause to put herself to death; much less has she cause to commit suicide in order to avoid such violation, for in that case she commits certain homicide to prevent a crime which is uncertain as yet, and not her own." In other words, the rapist has sinned, not she, so she has no reason to be ashamed.
There are exceptions to almost every rule, though. This brings us to the examples of saints like St. Pelagia (296-311), who lived in Antioch. She was 15 when, while her parents were away, soldiers acting under official orders during a persecution came to arrest her and take her before the judge "where her chastity might be in danger." (One can assume that she was familiar with accounts told by the other Christians of what happened to young girls at the court.) She told the soldiers she needed to dress herself, went upstairs, and either threw herself off the roof or fell off while trying to escape (accounts vary). She is considered to be a virgin martyr: her death is the direct result of actions taken against her in the Name of Christ. If she fell of the roof, then it was not suicide; if, on the other hand, if she jumped off the roof, it is believed that she did this to prevent her from being an occasion of sin for the soldiers, in effect giving up her life to save another. Raping her would be a sin; executing her on the orders of a judge would not, since they would do it under legally constituted authority.
Likewise, with St. Apollonia (the example I used in my original message, who had had her teeth bashed in and removed before jumping in the fire), her death is not considered to be suicide but martyrdom. The men assaulting her were going to kill her, when they had no legal authority to do so. They would have been committing murder. By accepting her own death St. Apollonia kept them from committing a graver sin.
In other words, by following the example of Jesus ("No greater love hath he who lays down his life for his friends") G_D can and does remove the sinful element of taking your life.
Hope that makes everything crystal clear!
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Kathy,
I'm not a "seal" expert but I don't think they have been broken yet. You’re also probably more up to date than I on the 70 weeks issue & timing.
You've spent a great deal of time on that topic and what you have come up with sounds logical to me. I've always thought they would be opened at the beginning of the 70th weeks.
The description of the 1st three seals look like they could possibly be broken but I really think we are now only in the "birth pangs" and it's due
to get worse when given birth. He says: "When you begin-to see these things happen look up because your redemption draws near."
In my heart of hearts I think the
1st horse and rider is the Anti-Christ. He's a copy-cat of the real deal. So when it says he went out conquering and to conquer- Does it imply physical warfare only or could it imply what we are seeing now in terms of the one world govt pieces forming & coming together. He's conquering minds,intellects,ideas,egos,politics,etc... (Conquering under God's control of course.)
If a billion people die by the 4th seal in a way I envison it-then it has not been opened yet.
The difference between our views of the 1st 3.5 years is that I think it may be somewhat peaceful w/Israel & people in the world (depending when these seals are broken) but I don't think it will be peaceful at all for the Christians. We are already having quite a bit of havoc if what we are experiencing is the birth pangs now & where does it say these will stop and the earth will suddenly become peaceful & natural disasters will cease for 3.5 yrs? So to me it gets, worse & worse & worse until finally the big kahuna "reveals himself." & hell literally breaks loose & we have supernatural demonic beings in the 5th trumpet.
1st the Christians during the Trib will have to overcome the things pointed out holding them back from God's favor as well as remain steadfast and overcome the Tribulation test beginning @ the 70th week until they are harvested.(It looks to me like the harvest is at the pre-wrath point.)
As far as God not indwelling the Christians @ that time w/the Holy Spirit - Nothing is said other than "The restraining force taken away" so some have come up with that theory. (If it were the Holy Spirit & Rapture)
If Jesus said He would be w/us until the end of the age & said tongues & gifts would cease-when he's back as King of Kings-(why-because we won't need it)then I don't see the indwelling withheld from believers during the Trib.When Christians would need it the most He would not give it? Doesn't make sense to me.
We know the 144,000 are "sealed" with the Holy Spirit as well. But they are promised protection while no one else is.
Jim,
Whew! I'm so glad you/we got the clarification on that issue & the other input on the topic.
The nuts & bolts in my mind is when Satan wants/attempts to get people to do something (such as suicide) there is an ulterior motivation. To get them into hell.
So when I hear evangelical/ protestant pastors tell their flock it's ok to commit suicide because it's just a sin which is already forgiven even before you've done it- It looks like a doctrine of the devil to me.
It's another "No you will not die!"
(Die spiritually that is.)
We look & what Satan has done in Islam w/suicide. How glorious it appears & even financially beneficial it becomes to the family members. This is an extreme degree but anyway it's accomplished the eternal outcome is the same.
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