by Nicolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf (1703-1791)
Last eve I passed beside a blacksmith's door,
And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
Then, looking in, I saw upon the floor
Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.
How many anvils have you had," said I,
"To wear and batter all these hammers so?"
"Just one," said he, and then, with twinkling eye,
"The anvil wears the hammers out, you know."
And so, thought I, the anvil of God's Word,
For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The anvil is unharmed--the hammers gone.
151 comments:
Mr Hyde - Interesting post.
Too early for me to be looking words up in the dictionary though - my eyes are barely open!
Have a blessed day all!
What a beautiful post!
Thanks, Mac!
So true!
Hi late night lisa,
I have heard of Dimiti D., and have not heard about him for a long time. Didn't know he passed away though. I will have to rethink this as there were somethings about this man that I wasn't too sure about. I think I have one of his books in the basement. Don't know if I will have to the time to search for it, but I was surprise to hear you talk about him. You got me thinking and so I will try to find that book after all.
-jeff
I had stuck it through to the end of this video-Joe Schimmel-The Great Deception-OSASand thought to myself-If anyone will open their hearts and hear what this pastor has to say & will not let go of this doctrine-I will rip my (bath)robe & throw dust on my head!
I know we have been back & forth & back & forth on this issue.
The video is amature & probably held in a house or small church-but the message is powerful & well presented.
Scripture after Scripture after Scripture is listed in opposition to this belief in addition to twisted thinking of leaders who hold this view.
The danger of being comfortable with this mindset is that many of the people you think are saved are really lost and God may want to work through you to nudge them back on track.
Humility is as precious jewels in the site of God. When we embrace humility we can be great servants for our Lord.
So if we come across a Biblical truth contrary to what we have held fast to and humble ourselves before Him- He may decide your ready for greater things & bless you with more opportunity & responsibility.
At least to me the thought of that is pretty exciting! I'm ready to get over myself and Do something.
Personally I feel like a racehorse being held @ the gate. He's saying "I know you Think your ready to charge out-but your not ready yet." "There is more I have yet to teach you."
Meanwhile I'll dance around in a nervous sweat contained in the gate & froth at the mouth.
(What a site!)
Lisa
I haven't the time to watch an hour long video but did watch bits and pieces but remain unconvinced-nothing can separate us from God not even us.
I would challenge you to carry the thought of not believing in OSAS to it's logical conclusion. To say it's only a continuing pattern of unredeemed behavior which causes one to lose their salvation I don't think is necessarily scriptural. I think the Bible states that ANY ONE sin, not just a continuing pattern of unredeemed behavior separates us from God prior to our coming to Him. So if only one sin can separate me from God BEFORE I come to him, if the OSAS view is false, then only one sin can separate me from God AFTER my salvation. God's view of sin doesn't change just because we are saved. God's view of US is changed after our salvation. The change comes because He sees a once sufficient sacrifice which we have accepted. Carried to the nth degree, if one can lose their salvation and they happened to sin the minute before something tragic were to happen to them resulting in either a state in which they were persistently unresponsive or dead, according to the non OSAS view they would end up in hell or be in hell because any sin causes us to lose our salvation.
OSAS carried to the nth degree would mean that an awful lot of people whom one would have to raise their eyebrow at, because of their behavior, would be in heaven but that would be it. They would be in heaven and would have escaped hell but no more than that. I also think that we as Christians focus so much on the escaping of hell (yes escaping eternal damnation is a good thing) that we forget that there is so much more to heaven and salvation than just escaping hell. Remember where believers works are tried by fire at the Bema Seat of Christ and you get the picture. There will be people in heaven who have salvation but all their works after that point burn up in fire and all they are left with is salvation. They will have no crowns to cast at Christ's feet. (As an aside I think it was Frucht that said in his book that the verb used for casting was a verb that implied a continual doing not just a one time thing.) How awful to stand out in that way-no crown. Unlike Paul I don't think I can say I have run the course to satisfaction or fought the good fight always. I am trying to change that. I want to have a crown to cast at Christ's feet. He has done so much for me-I should want to live for Him in the here and contend for the kingdom but I also want something that I can present to Him daily with gratitude in the future.
Starting of the One World Church or no? This article is interesting in that Anglicans are thinking of coming back into the "catholic" fold due to the ordaining of women as bishops and gay marriage. Seems that the Catholic church is viewed as the last bastion of traditional orthodoxy. This has interesting ramifications prophetically I think. Should the RCC accept a number of faiths into the fold even as a reaction to the liberalism of the world I think it will start to look more like the one world church and less like the RCC as we know it.
Palestinian leaders want BHO also has prophetic implications. The PA wants BHO to win because they like him, view him as a JFK and think that he'll give them a homeland. Interesting the reactions to BHO worldwide. Kids in our own country "taking his middle name" as theirs to "show unity", Canadians preferring him to their own elected leadership, and now the PA wanting him to be President because they think he'll get them that homeland they want. Wonder how? 7 year treaty anyone? anyone? BHO gives me the creeps.
The Luckiest Generation
Jib,
I stated that I would only rip my (bath) robe and put dust on my head if you watched the entire presentation with an open heart.
(It's over an hour long, closer to two.)
Not bits and pieces then go back to the old diatribe.
The scripture is there loud and clear if you take the time to work though it.
This has nothing to do with our feelings but rather searching for the truth in the Word of God.
If your not willing to do that-certainly no one is going to force you. Just remain as is.
What is this?
"Carried to the nth degree, if one can lose their salvation and they happened to sin the minute before something tragic were to happen to them resulting in either a state in which they were persistently unresponsive or dead, according to the non OSAS view they would end up in hell or be in hell because any sin causes us to lose our salvation."
I don't know of any non-OSAS who ever stated this. It's certainly carrying things to the nth degree to the point of being non-Biblical.
It's as if when OSAS supporters feel pulled out of their comfort zone they feel personally threatened by the whole non-OSAS concept. It's almost an act of self-preservation. Fight or Flight.
What other topics do we discuss that creates such a reaction?
Wow. That's about all I can say.
Jib,
The "One world church" does look like the RCC could definately play a/the part.
Charles Chiniquy was a RCC priest in Canada in 1833.Read his testimony and notice how when he was personally led by the Holy Spirit (As we all should be on a one on one basis) how the RCC eventually turned on him.
I guess the main way they could embrace other beliefs would be to adopt OSAS (just kidding). Would be to say everyone is saved that worships the same God. You don't have to follow the RCC traditions.
Back in the days of Chiniquy the RCC believed they were the Only way to salvation and did not compromise that belief.(I don't know about in our times if it still holds true. If so looks like that may change)
They're getting the priests' temple clothing ready....another footstep?
A 'Big Day' for Kohanim: Future Temple Priests Get Fitted
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126721
Also, I read a headline today that said BHO will 'immediately birth' a new Palestinian state if elected. That would be the final birthpain, wouldn't it?
Blessings,
Jen
Lisa
my statements weren't a diatribe (although my following ones could be considered as such) and as with many things such as prewrath, post trib , pre trib folks interpret different scriptures differently.
In addition to searching the scripture one must also think out one's conclusions to their logical endpoint and see if the logical endpoint also jibes with what scripture teaches.
Perhaps I was less than clear in my point about the end conclusions with the anti OSAS position. So hopefully this will be more clearly stated.
I think we can agree that what separates us from God pre salvation is our sin, God says even our good deeds he considers as sin. So what one can conclude from this and from the fact that no one could keep the law in it's entirety other than Christ is that a single instance behavior can separate me from God not just repetitive behaviors/living. When we are saved God does not change His definitions of what constitutes sinful behavior or sin, He changes our definition of us as individuals. So since a single instance behavior can separate me from God which causes me to lose my salvation, under the anti OSAS position I can never be assured of eternal life. For you to say it's only someone who constantly lives wrongly after salvation and not someone who exhibits sinful behavior (which would be all of us) in is not what I have been exposed to in the past on this subject as the teaching of the anti OSAS position nor is it imo scriptural.
So if we can lose our salvation by engaging in sinful behavior the end conclusion to that is
1-we can never be sure we are saved ever and have eternal life since even though we accept Christ because we continue to sin daily.
2-The anti OSAS position if properly applied would require you to ask for salvation after every sin you commit since all sinning causes you to lose your salvation not just end up out of fellowship with God. if you were to die after telling a lie you would be going to hell if you hadn't re asked for salvation. It is more similar to the requirements of the Mosaic law than the grace talked about in the NT where Paul states that Christ was sacrificed once for all. One of the links Mac posted talked about this stating in effect that Christ would have to re die for every sin every time under the anti OSAS position.
3-for the anti OSAS folks to say that all one needs to do is confess their sin and be restored to a right relationship is an improper application of their own theology. One can only be restored to a right relationship if the relationship was still intact at the root level ie they were still saved but out of step and out of fellowship with God. In the parable of the prodigal son the prodigal son never stopped being the son of his father ever-his sonship isn't what was restored it was his fellowship with his father and being part of the family circle that were restored. I would also note that the son only regained the fellowship with his father and family but had no further inheritance since he had already received it and squandered it. Again akin to those who believe that the OSAS position is correct and that while ones status as child does not change ones inheritance or rewards do change.
In summary, a proper application of the anti OSAS theology means that I'm not just out of fellowship with God and the family of God but eternally lost with every sin I commit after salvation and that my eternal destiny can never be secure. Is that what you actually believe, that you can never be sure of your eternal destiny since that is rightful and logical end conclusion of the anti OSAS position?
Shalom, all! There's a lot of stuff to be commenting on, so let's get going ...
Lisa, Shalom! I'm going to keep checking back on that "beheading" report, as I am also interested in knowing if that event did in fact occur. I've also known about Dumitru and the "Hand of Help Ministries" for a couple of years. Very powerful stuff. One thing to remember is that prophecy about future events is given not just to warn us for preparation, but to give us the chance to change and, if not to forstall or prevent, at least lessen the effects of what has been prophesied. I found it interesting that the angel in his dream pointed out Florida as "Sodom and Gomorrah", since I found nothing particularly sinful in mobile home parks filled with slightly used trailers and thousands of retirees eating buffet at 4:00 PM (unless you consider what the cooks did to the food particularly sinful...) Then I read the "beheading" report, and learned for the first time the amount of slavery that occurs in Florida.
Mac, Shalom! I'm about ready to buy my own shofar just so I can join in this blast! I wonder how hard it would be to get permission to do it at the Catholic Student Center, which is just across the street from the University?
Jib, Shalom! Regarding the "One World Church", I highly doubt it. There are MANY, many issues to be resolved before any kind of union or mass conversion occurs. Before the Anglican Church first ordained women, 500 priests and bishops threatened to convert to Roman Catholicism -- didn't happen. Anglicans had maintained that they were one of three branches of Catholic orthodoxy, the other two being Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. The ordination of women changed all that. Now, as another commenter said, if the Anglican Church does ordain women to be bishops, then you can no longer refer to "The Anglican Communion" -- it might be "The Anglican Federation", but it cannot be a communion when you have different subgroups teaching different things.
As for the issues to be resolved, there are both spiritual matters (Do you bring the Anglican priests over directly, or must they return to the seminary and be re-ordained as Catholic priests? What about the Anglican Bishops? Will they use the existing Mass in English, the Traditional Latin Mass, or will there be a new Anglican Rite approved for their use?) as well as temporal matters (If a priest as well as the congregation decide to "swim the Tiber" to Catholicism, who owns the physical church building and property? What happens when a Bishop converts?) that must be answered. So don't expect any kind of quick resolution of this issue. There have been a couple of "experimental" cases in America, where an entire congregation (including the priest) converted, as well as cases where a married Anglican priest converted and is now assigned with his wife to different parishes, to see how well the integration will go on the Catholic side.
In terms of any "Anglican-Roman" Catholic union being the beginning of the "One World Church", I would be more frightened of the comment to the article (#8 Posted by Geoffrey on July 07, 2008 04:33 PM) where he describes himself as a Methodist who has been proud of all the work towards unity that has been done between the Methodist Church and the Church of England, and who wrote, "The removal of the nonsensical ban on women bishops will remove a major bar to further co-operation as part of the Covenant, and to co-working with the other Protestant denominations in the UK and elsewhere." So, ... you have one set of churches working together to recognize homosexual bishops and gay marriage as well as the right and necessity of abortion on demand, and another set of churches coming together in acceptance and understanding of the traditional Orthodox views of Christianity, including the salvific (able to cause or the source of salvation) nature of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross and the necessity of faith in Jesus for salvation. Which set of churches do you think would be more easily aligned with the forces of the Evil One during the coming Tribulation?
As for "The Luckiest Generation", I was reminded of the statement of a recent immigrant who was asked why he came to America. He replied, "I want to live in a country where even the poor people are fat!"
<><
Hi Jim,
Yes, fat, but unhealthy, too....did ya'll see the report about children being recommended to take Lipitor now for cholesterol problems? Starting in elem. school?
Yikes!
Blessings,
Jen
Jen, here in Melbourne, some doctors are trying to get funding for kids to have that stomach stapling done! At the same time, the lunch-bag-Nazi teachers are scrutinizing what kids have for lunch. PC going crazy?
Jim C
well avoiding the rampant liberalism might be enough to encourage swimming the Tiber. At least here in the states the Supremes have sided more often than not with the actual congregation regarding actual property don't know about Europe. I said start only in that until all true Christians are removed I don't see the one world church being a reality.
I would agree that the other comment was equally scary.
Jen
absolutely not. statins serve a purpose for some adults and even some kids (like those with an hereditary lipid problem) but the vast majority of us need to eat better, eat less and move more. My dad for example can follow a really strict diet and his lipids are still out of whack so for him statins would be a must. Otherwise when will the American public get off their lazy fat tail ends and start taking some responsibility for their own health and do the hard work needed to correct the problem instead of expecting the medical establishment to come up with yet another expensive pill to mitigate the effects of their own bad behavior. I get so tired of this attitude of people not wanting to do any work or expend any effort in fixing some of their problems and wanting someone else or something else to do the work for them. Patient's tell me all the time I can't afford that but can afford very expensive herbals for which there is minimal evidence in some cases to support their use (I would note others have great evidence to support their use), they can afford to buy their cigarettes but ask them to buy a reasonably priced life saving antibiotic and they just can't do that. In my case they want an operation to fix the problem and sometimes there isn't one, the patient needs to change some bad habits and it's my fault when the problem doesn't go away. ugh. one of my pet peeves can you tell?
off my soapbox now.
BTW, that was a good post, Jib.
Where I tend to wonder about OSAS is in the circumstances when a former believer rejects God and even actively opposes Him - not in the cases where a Christian sins (as we all do).
And, in the former case, one could argue that, perhaps, such a person may not have been sincere from the beginning. I don't have the answers but I DO trust that the Lord won't lose me and that I won't lose my salvation.
it's part of the nanny state mentality.
we don't want to control (they would say can't control) our own appetites and eat right so the state has to do it for us. unfortunately one of the side effects of nationalized health is that if the state is paying for all ones care cradle to grave, they feel they have the right to dictate what gets eaten. maybe they should have that right.
I would have to wonder what was actually going on and whether the original conversion was sincere or not. Only God knows at that point.
What I find inconsistent in the OSAS position is that some don't believe in eternal security for those who are saved after the rapture in the tribulation. they promote the idea that salvation can be lost during that time mostly as I understand it because they see the Holy Spirit as the restrainer who is removed from the earth and they don't think He then indwells those saved after the tribulation and thus those folks can lose their salvation. sounds very confusing to me.
Jib, that's where the dispensationalist arguments come in. I'm keeping an open mind as there's so much I don't understand or am not totally convinced about. One (pre-trib usually) view is that the 70th week reverts to a salvation by works process. This is Jack Kinsella's view and probably also that of Hal Lindsey. The judgment of the sheep and goats would seem to support this view. Some pretribbers still see the Holy Spirit as being present on the earth even though He no longer restrains the AC.
as a a further note, I remembered after I posted my last note this morning that there is a verse somewhere that states that if we are guilty of breaking even a part of the law we are guilty of breaking the whole law. haven't a clue as to where it's located.
I believe you are correct that somehow dispensationalist theology does somehow get into the mix. I probably fall into the latter camp. It doesn't make sense to me to revert to salvation by works (and I'm not exactly sure that the OT saints were saved by works I think they were saved by faith) since Christ paid the debt for those in the OT as well. They were saved by faith in anticipation of Christ's atoning work-since those saved in the trib can look back to Christ's work on the cross how does one anticipate that which has already happened?
I have also heard the sheep and the goats interpreted as relational in their views and treatment of Jews as well as simply those who come to Christ and those who don't. Seems to me the simple view is the most logical view but as with most things we'll have to see how things pan out in the end :-)
speaking of food nazi police this is just unbelievable to me
Toddlers who say "yuk" to unfamiliar foreign food are exhibiting racist tendencies
want to bet this will only apply to english toddlers being served food such as curry and not Pakistani or similar children being served english food?
Late nite lisa
Hi,
I watched just a little bit of that video on osas. First off I want to say that joe schimmel did an excellent job in his video's called "they sold their souls for rock and roll". In fact I'm requiring my son to watch the 10 hour version for his punishment for doing drugs under our roof among other things. We couldn't get the computer working right last night, so we watched Steve Hadley's "signs in the heavens" Excellent! I promised to order pizza for any of his friends who wants to come over and watch along with him, and one of his came over. I think my pizza bill for the next month is going to be outrages. sorry for all of the missed spelled words. my wife is the walking spell checker! Anyway there was a point in the video where Joe said something about the angels not keeping their place in heaven but lost their rightful place. I don't think joe should compare people to angels as they are a whole different make up compared to us. Also they are living in a totally different dimension than we are. I don't have a lot of time to pull out the bible and search for the right scriptures, i think its Jude 6, but feel that though the scriptures my be making a comparision, the angels and us are on a differnet playing field. I have always wondered about angels and what they saw or how they thought as they lived in heaven and what it was that they stooped so low to be kicked out of heaven and held for the day of judgement.
-jeff
p.s.
My youngest mandy, is on a path leading to her old ways.....Please pray would you? Thank you all so very much.
-jeff
jib, (or anyone else) I would be interested in your opinion, as a doc, about something happening in my state. The Dept of Health collects the DNA of newborns. I don't know a lot about it, but the possibilities are conceivably sinister (think antichrist). The parents can opt out using a form that requires witnesses, but how many will bother, even if they do have qualms about it, and how many know about it? Is there good reason to allow this?
The Minnesota Department of Health wants to own the DNA of every citizen, starting at birth, for
the purpose of doing genetic research on individual citizens without consent.
Already, the DNA of 780,000 children is illegally owned and controlled by Minnesota
government in a State DNA warehouse. Already, the genetic information of more than 41,000
children has been used for genetic research inside and outside of the Minnesota Department of
Health...without parent knowledge or consent…or legal authority.
The Minnesota Department of Health began saving newborn blood and DNA in July 1997 by
executive decision—without legislative authority. They later began sharing it with researchers.
Hey Everyone,
Thanks for the anniversary wishes! Our day truly was a blessing as we spent it photographing our pastor’s daughter’s wedding. The one I told you about that lost her first husband in Iraq two summers ago. The one on which PBS is doing a special. They were short on cameramen so they are going to use footage from Hannah’s brother who video taped the wedding. It was a wonderful, God-honoring day, and very emotional for everyone. The Lord truly “gifted” the right man into Hannah’s life after Gabe, for her and little Gabriel. (Sorry, couldn’t help but put it that way!) Little Gabriel walked Hannah down the aisle. What a joy! I captured that moment with tears in my eyes! I’ve posted a pic of the new family at Overcomer.
Hang on to your hats guys, this is a long one.
Jib,
I will agree with you that devout people of other faiths have real faith, but not SAVING faith, faith that brings us into a right relationship with God. All other faiths, no matter how sincere and devout, are not saving. Period. As impressive as they may be, the people in those other faiths are still dead in their trespasses and sins. And as respectable and even as moral as other faiths can be, those faiths are according to the leadership and design of Satan. (Eph. 2:2) The people in those faiths abide in the flesh and God says that those who abide in the flesh CANNOT please God, so their faith is self-serving and not self-saving.
So how does faith (that is according to the leadership and design of Satan) become saving faith if they are dead in their trespasses and sins and walking according to the leadership and design of Satan? Where do they get the ability to believe the gospel message? Does it come from deep within themselves? For those who are not saved out of a different faith, where do they get the ability to believe the gospel message? Does it come from deep within themselves? If there is none who understands (Rm. 3:11), how can saving faith, the ability to believe the gospel message and submit to it come from within ourselves? How can we take credit for it? Those in the flesh cannot please God, and we are in the flesh when by faith we seek Him, right? So how can that faith be pleasing, unless it is a gift from God? (Romans 8:7,8) According to Eph.2:8,9 salvation is a gift from God. It is a gift that is given in grace and received through faith. The key to that verse is “so that no one may boast.” The gift of salvation is not earned but given. Eph. 2:1 says YOU WERE DEAD in sin. Unable to save yourself, because you were DEAD. So, you were given this gift of salvation in grace which you received through faith so that you cannot ever say you had anything to do with it! The grace is from God, the gift of salvation comes from God, and the ability to believe it comes from God. He does the saving. 100% of it. Verse 10 tells us why we were created in Christ Jesus – FOR GOOD WORKS which God prepared BEFOREHAND so that we could walk in them. God has prepared good works for us to do, then saved us to do them. If we don’t do them, He disciplines us like a loving father and if we do them, He blesses us.
A question - if all men have the same ability to put their faith in God, after seeing the horrific plagues placed on himself and his people, why would Pharaoh choose to go back on his word and continue to persecute the Jews, knowing the next plague will be worse than the previous one?
Because Exodus 9:12, 10:20, 10:27 and 11:10 tells us that the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, which set his mind against Israel and God. Where was Pharaoh's ability to believe the Word of God and act on it? How can Pharoah be held accountable for his sin if God was doing the hardening? Can this possibly be fair? These are questions which stem from man’s perspective of fairness, not God’s. God's hardening was simply letting him do what comes naturally to Pharaoh - like dropping the leash of a dog who wants to chase after a cat. You hold the leash to keep him by you, but if you let go of the leash, he will do what comes naturally. The hardening of Pharaoh's heart was simply letting go of the leash. In and of ourselves, we run in the opposite direction of righteousness. So, how can saving faith be found within the hearts of rebellious, dead men? It can't unless it is placed there!
I simply give thanks to the Lord for the grace He’s given me, for keeping my leash tightly wound and pulling me into His family, for giving me saving faith and giving me understanding when I was dead in my sin. If it wasn’t for His grace where would I be today, where would my rebellious, sinful heart have taken me?
Lisa,
You said: “I'm not walking around thinking to myself who's already been pre-chosen and "regenerated" or "faith gifted" @ some point in their life & my attempts to witness to the lost is one big crap shoot.
Am I speaking with an "elect" or am I not? If I'm not then I'm wasting my breath so I guess it's the chance I must take.”
We don’t know who God’s elect are. Salvation is not in our hands, therefore we respond to God’s call to obediently preach the gospel to every living creature. He is the judge of men’s hearts – we were never given that responsibility.
I also checked out the link you said I would find interesting. The guy doesn’t understand the prewrath view correctly. Just thought I’d let you know that.
Jim G,
You asked if it is my position that there are some people that Jesus did not die for and that God does not want to save…
Romans 5:18 and 19 tells us that through one sin condemnation came to ALL MEN and through one act of righteousness justification resulted to ALL MEN. But, we know all men are not saved. It also says that through the obedience of One THE MANY will be made righteous – indicating a special group.
I Timothy 2:4 tells us that God desires ALL MEN to be saved and 1 Tim. 4:10 says that Jesus is the Savior of ALL MEN, “especially of believers”. It seems that God’s desire and His decree are two different things. Why aren’t all men saved? Because in Romans 9 Paul says that some vessels are made for destruction and some for glory and He did it this way to bring glory to Himself. He is just and His justice demands a penalty for sin, yet He chose to show mercy to some.
It is not my position that there are people that Jesus didn’t die for. He is the Savior of ALL MEN and His one act of righteousness is enough to result in the righteousness of ALL MEN. As for the question are there those He does not WANT to save, Timothy says He desires all men to be saved, however Romans tells us that He chooses whom He desires. So though His heart in creation was to have perfect union with all men, He decides who He will grant salvation to and who He will chose not to show mercy. It’s His choice.
This is difficult to grasp, by FAITH we must believe it when God says it in His Word.
Some final comments in general…The Bible teaches that man is responsible for his decisions and holds out salvation to “whosoever will.” Romans 10:13: “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” The Bible also teaches that salvation is a sovereign act of God. John 1:11-13: “He came to His own, and those who were not His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Only God can completely resolve the two.
More final thoughts as I just checked the comments before posting this.
Salvation has never been by works nor will it ever be! Rm. 4:2,3: “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to Him as righteousness.”
we'll have to disagree on this one Kathy. I think you are making a distinction that scripturally does not exist. faith is faith. I think God gives us the ability to have faith in spiritual things as part of being being created in His image. Our image is currently marred by sin but the underlying image is there. I don't see "saving faith" as different than that which God has already given us as created beings. it is in part up to us what we do with that ability whether to actively believe truth or believe a lie. The articles posted by Mac explain it ever so much better than I.
I would also note that the concept of limited atonement brought up by Jim is also part of calvinistic thought and most folks who believe in predestination to the extent that you do also believe in it as well. I would note that it has never made much sense to me that if only certain people have been selected for salvation to have Christ die for all. To believe in one and not the other is a bit mystifying to me since I think they only make sense believed in together and I would find it difficult to reconcile the dichotomy of believing Christ died for men who can never be saved because God didn't chose them for salvation. Which is why as I have gotten older, I lean more toward the armenian view of free will and limitless atonement. The Bible clearly states that Christ died for all men so to me if He died for all, all have the chance for salvation.
I have brought up middle knowledge before which can be boiled down to this-
if you believe God knows the outcome in it's entirety for each choice you make, you probably believe God has middle knowledge. In other words, if you think God knows what would have happened if you had taken job A instead of job B that's middle knowledge. Middle knowledge approaches the question from the perspective of God's omnipotence. Was God able to create a world in which all men would come to Christ and be saved? i think the answer to that is yes if one really believes God is omnipotent. If He did create such a world is man really free to choose? I think the answer to that is no since I think the relationships would be forced for lack of a better word. Middle knowledge says that in order for man to have the option of free will God created mankind to have the maximal number of people be saved (predestination). This considers the election or predestination of mankind for salvation more in general terms rather than specific terms and allows for free will. I think the verses about predestination could be applied in a more general fashion-a subset of mankind if you will (out of 20 trillion people who have ever lived 15 trillion will choose Christ and 5 won't), rather than in a precise specific fashion (Kathy will be saved but her next door neighbor won't). It is an explanation which is the best I have seen that attempts to take both into account rather than resorting to the "God's ways our not our ways" or the ever popular "I guess that's just something that will be solved once we get to heaven". I'm thinking there will likely still be things we won't understand.
As far as God hardening Pharoah's heart-I think He did that to teach lessons to the Jews of that time, the average egyptian and folks down through the ages.
I would agree on the subject of Abraham being saved by faith and not works as well.
Dr. Renald Showers, in his book, There Really is a Difference--A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology, makes the following clarification: "The different dispensations are different ways of God's administering His rule over the world. they are not different ways of salvation. Throughout history God has employed several dispensations but only one way of salvation. Salvation has always been by the grace of God through faith in the Word of God, and God has based salvation on the work of Jesus Christ" (page 31).
Jib,
My comments were in reference to commenting "before" listening to the man's full teaching w/scriptural proof.
But to answer these statements from my personal understanding:
1-we can never be sure we are saved ever and have eternal life since even though we accept Christ because we continue to sin daily."
Wrong. If we abide in Christ He'll abide in us. We confess our sins & are forgiven. Obviously we try not to repeat the same sins over and over again but sometimes it may take awhile to break a bad habit. He will not give up on us and the Holy Spirit will work in our hearts to overcome it. If we are abiding in Him we are saved. No matter what stage of the journey we are in. Our love for Him will motivate us to continually strive to be holy as He is holy.
"If you were to die after telling a lie you would be going to hell if you hadn't re asked for salvation."
That has to be almost one of the most ridicules things I've heard.
The answer is no because we are all going to sin as it's in our nature right now. We are not going to be perfect until we are heaven bound. Really, talk about extreme thinking. Who is the world has ever said this? I have not read it. Was this an assumption or did someone actually state this?
"In summary, a proper application of the anti OSAS theology means that I'm not just out of fellowship with God and the family of God but eternally lost with every sin I commit after salvation and that my eternal destiny can never be secure. Is that what you actually believe, that you can never be sure of your eternal destiny since that is rightful and logical end conclusion of the anti OSAS position?"
No it is not and if you would hear that pastor though to the end-he brings up the prodigal son parable and "Abraham's test of faith" and so many scriptures which describe exactly what the apostles taught and lived by.
The apostles had eternal security because they knew that they were abiding in Christ.
I have no fear of eternal security because I have a relationship with Him and I have no plans on terminating it. If I veer off course He will no doubt guide me back.
But for some bizarre reason I fade away into never land- become distracted by worldly pursuits-and loose my first Love then my eternal security is in question unless I repent and turn back.
I can't become one with the world and expect to be saved. It's not Biblical what-so-ever.
You have many people not worried or even thinking much about God because they think since they believe in Christ they are saved.
Have you seen the poll numbers of the Christians who think they are saved? They have no idea what they even believe in. They do not have a relationship with Christ because they are not putting Him 1st in their lives.
If the rapture happens in our lifetime I think what we'll find is that there are not as many people going up the 1st time around as one would expect. It's going to be a very rude awakening.
Now on a lighter note:
Take This Free Test and see what your strongest "Spritual Gifts" are.
(I'm wondering if we would come up differently or mostly the same here)
My test turned up "Evangelist 1st/ Shepherd 2nd." (And prophesy was one of my low ones- What? this test must be a fake!)
Shalom, all. Just wanted to put in one more comment before bed.
In my post of 12:46 PM I made an attempt at a humorous comment regarding Florida being Sodom and Gomorrah. This evening I learned of another way Florida is in great spiritual danger.
This thread on the Catholic Answers Forum describes an incident where a student at the University of Central Florida desecrated the Holy Eucharist. Catholics believe that the consecrated hosts (the Communion wafers) are the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. (In other words, we believe it contains the Real Presence of Christ.) The way this young man and his friends acted in church and treated the host could seriously be considered a hate crime.
What is more disturbing to me is message #12 (by Nana3). According to her, there are a large number of Satan worshipers in the University area. Satanists frequently try to steal consecrated hosts to be used in satanic rituals. Apparently it's such a problem there that the Catholic churches have had to install security devices to protect the consecrated hosts; and at one church a Satanist tried to attack the priest with a knife during Mass. (Luckily, there were some off-duty police officers attending Mass and were able to subdue him before anyone was hurt.)
If there is this level of satanic worship going on in Florida, along with the slavery, then I can truly understand why Florida would be considered part of Sodom and Gomorrah.
<><
Jim C.
As you can see many of his prophesies are from years back.Of course anytime you 1st hear of a "new" prophesy you think it's about to happen ASAP.
(I guess we are not different from Jesus diciples!)
Some of the warnings like the earthquakes,waves roaring,fires,
etc.to get America's attention have only recently started reving up to a point you KNOW is not happenstance. Do you think it's been getting more intense since 911? or has it been the most noticeable last 4 years and especially the last year?
I was thinking back to his "California" on fire visions. It was California on fire due to an attack on our nuclear sites & grave to total destruction of the State.
Well, since California is now basically "On Fire" as we speak-is this just a small warm up?
My personal experience w/the fires was an effective wake up call. And I get to go back soon- Oh Joy! Back to Sodom & Gomorrah! The Mexican Cartel will probably start rolling some heads around SD about that time.
(Did you notice my old SD Church-Maranatha?-they are signed up for the Trumpet Blast.)
My foxhunting horn is weak.When I blow in it the only noise that comes out is the sound of my spit.(Not very attractive for a Bride)
What if I got ahold of one of those Shofars? I hope hubby would be out of town-then the kids and I would have a blast! If he finds me blowing on a shofar in the wee hours of the night - I'm not sure what he'd do. He may have me on lock down.
Where is Lori? She can tell us about Florida right? I believe there are parts of "rich" Florida that are quite the happening
"Party" scenes. This prophet was not the only one to mention Florida on the hit parade.
Of course California-it's one of the 1st to go w/San Fransicko & Hollywood.
OK. This time I really will turn off the computer after posting this:
Hell is a state: A talk with Catholic exorcist Pedro Barrajon about demons, the nature of evil and exorcism today.
<><
Jim C.
You can rest in peace now:
"Cook, who was raised Catholic, said he decided to bring the Eucharist home after a church leader tried to physically pry it from his hand. Cook broke Church rules by failing to consume it immediately during communion and then removing it from his mouth once seated.
Cook said he just wanted to show the Eucharist to a friend he brought with questions about Catholicism before consuming it. But outraged Catholics across the globe didn’t believe him and suspected he intended all along to steal the Eucharist and bloggers sent out e-mail messages damning him to Hell.
"I am returning the Eucharist to you in response to the e-mails I have received from Catholics in the UCF community," Cook wrote in a letter to the church. "I still want the community to understand that the use physical force is wrong, especially when based on assumptions. However, I feel it is unnecessary to cause pain for those who are not at fault in this situation."
"Cook said some threatened to break into his dorm room to rescue the Eucharist. Brinati said the Diocese of Orlando didn't condone those threats, but was happy Cook had a change of heart and returned it.
"We've been praying about that," she said.
OK. I really mean it this time. Last post of the evening.
Lisa, you can buy a shofar at aJudaica.com
<><
IMPORTANT POINT OF CLARIFICATION
Rejection of the OSAS position does NOT mean that a person believes we are saved by works or that salvation is secured by good works. We all believe that we are saved by faith, not works. At the heart of this whole debate I believe is the nature of faith. Where does it come from and can a true Christian (one who has placed his or her faith in Christ) ever abandon that faith?
Kathy,
I find much of your reasoning logical, I just don't find the premises upon which you base your logic in Scripture. I'm also troubled by your and John MacArthur, Jr.'s willingness to abandon logic when logic doesn't support a OSAS position.
Jib,
You wrote:
I would challenge you to carry the thought of not believing in OSAS to it's logical conclusion. To say it's only a continuing pattern of unredeemed behavior which causes one to lose their salvation I don't think is necessarily scriptural.
My position and the position of many believers who reject OSAS is that the Bible instructs us to abide in Christ. We are totally safe and secure in Christ. We die to sin in Christ and we live according to the Spirit in Christ. He is both Lord God and Savior. When we reject His Lordship, we reject His role as Savior because only God can be Lord and only God can save us from our sins.
The opportunity to be in Christ, to eat his body and drink his blood (yes, I'm Protestant but it is what Jesus said), to be part of the body of Christ, to be heirs with Him, to be called the sons of God, to cry out Abba Father, to be adopted into the family of God, to be grafted in as Gentiles, is only due to the grace of God. Nothing we ever did or ever could do earn us the right to have relationship with Him. He alone paid the price. Faith is not a work though. So when I say we must abide by faith in Christ, I am not saying that we must perform certain works. I am saying that works will follow and if they don't or we don't care one iota about our works as evidence of our faith, we have reason to be very concerned. Because, "faith without works is dead."
We must enter into that relationship and abide in Christ through FAITH. Works of righteousness (fruits of the Spirit) and putting our sinful nature to death are the result, not the cause of our salvation.
I believe that the Bible teaches that the Lord gives us the ability to choose life or death, good or evil, faithfulness or faithlessness. Of course, we reap what we sow and our hearts can be hardened after we make too many bad choices. That is a very dangerous road to go down.
Perhaps in some respects, faith is like many other things the Lord has given us. Fire, water, government, etc... In and of themselves, they are neither good nor bad. They simply have the capacity to be used for good or bad. The outcome depends upon our choices and how we use what the Lord gives us. Remember the parables of the talents. To whom much is given (resources of any kind), much is required. To whom little is given, little is required.
The Bible simply does not teach that our ability to exercise faith is out of our control. Read the OT. Read the teachings of Jesus, read the book of Hebrews.
Wouldn't Satan love to lie to us and tell us it is out of our control. If God has given us the ability to choose life or death, to yield to God or not, to put our faith in Him or not, to abide in Christ continually or not and Satan is able to deceive us into believing it is not, then Satan can paralize many Christians.
We don't abide in Christ by doing good works. We abide in Him by trusting, obeying, and yielding to the Holy Spirit. It is a heart attitude. We are totally safe and secure in Him so long as we continually keep our faith in Him. It is more than simple belief. It is faith that is evidenced by works and obedience.
OK. I'm preaching to myself now. Getting convicted just writing this. Like Kathy, I am so grateful that He died for me and made a way for me to know Him. He gave me breath. He is the One who calls. He is the One to whom we respond. The Scripture says that we love Him because He first loved us. He loves everyone but not all love Him. He still gives us the choice from what I see in Scripture. He still asks us to put our faith in Him. He does not force His faith into us and then force it back out towards himself.
He created us in His own image. I have often thought that one way in which we reflect His image is the capacity to choose. Look at Christ. He chose to do the Father's will. He is our perfect example.
With these thoughts in mind. Please allow me to print Romans 8:1-17 and tell me it doesn't make perfect sense in light of these premises which I find throughout Scripture.
Life Through the Spirit
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Can a Christian live according to the Spirit for a while and then stop living according to the Spirit and start living according to the flesh? I'm afraid it happens too often. We can't say these people were never saved and we can't say these people are still saved. That means we must reject OSAS as unbiblical.
Read the books of Hebrews, James, and Jude for further confirmation.
There is a great apostacy coming and I'm afraid many may fall into apostacy needlessly because of this doctrine combined with our sinful natures which OSAS doctrine teaches we need not worry about.
We ignore Scriptural warnings at our peril. OK. I better stop now. I'm getting convicted again.
Thank you Lord for sending your Spirit and caring enough to convict us so that we run to you, not away from you. Amen.
Jim G.
Sizzling salvation
St. Sarkozy
‘Germ warfare’ fear over African monkeys taken to Iran
Nate, we'll have to monitor that Fortis Bank article. I couldn't find anything in our Oz newspapers relating to it. Hope it's not true!
The Sensitivity Trap or “I think I’m going to scream!”
Jim G.
Beautifully said.
(I can see the move of the Holy Spirit in your words.)
Lisa
Yes, there does seem to be lots going on. And Sarkozy will be an interesting person to follow.
As far as faith and salvations goes, I'm sure there will be people with a limited amount of faith...faith as small as a "mustard seed"..who will be in heaven. They may not receive any rewards...but they will be there.
There may be some people who at one time or other professed faith in Christ, but this seed was planted in hard rocky soil and did not take...and they wound up rejecting Jesus being the Christ ..and perhaps got into something totally different...these folks will probably not wind up in heaven.
I, like Mac, am "keeping an open mind as there's so much I don't understand or am not totally convinced about".
I do know that He died for us. That we have to accept HIm. That we are supposed to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice..to yeild to and allow the Holy Spirit to live thru us.
Some folks wind up starting up a whole new set of rules and regulations that people are supposed to follow....known as "legalism" to many.
As Mac's recently have showed us...none of us can live up to the standards that the Sermon on the Mt teach us about.
The Sermonm on the Mt teaches that if we are angry at someone, in God's eye its the same as murder.
It is what is in the heart that counts.
It's faith and always has been faith. Abraham is the father of faith.
Yes...we must yeild and trust.
I like Jim's line:
"Thank you Lord for sending your Spirit and caring enough to convict us so that we run to you, not away from you."
HE will convict us....and then we will run to Him.
Him first, then us.
He chooses...He softens people's hearts. He convicts.
His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.
He saves us. All we can do is accept His free gift of what He has already done for us.
Amen!
Nate,
I followed that article to the end of the thread and it was concluded that it was an urban legend.
What do you think?
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Fortis-Prediction-of-US-Ba-by-Paul-Haughey-080629-98.html
Grace
Surprise, surprise:
Gaza militants fire new mortar shell
Mac,
On the "sensitivity trap" this was a very good point:
"But none of them are genuine outrages; they're invented to divide us. "
So what is it dividing us into?
There are Christians & Unbelievers in both camps.
Isn't one a multi-cultural, politically correct, anything goes, don't judge others type.They will give up their freedoms to be loved by all.
(I think some of these people may not agree to the extent that others do but are "scared" to speak out)
The other desires freedom, says what's on their mind whether you agree or not, there is a limit to the moral depravity tolerated, have a sensitive conscience and judge right from wrong. They will fight or eventually fight for their beliefs.
So where I'm going w/this is some speak of a Revolution in America.(My husband has been saying this since I've known him but didn't believe it) The Romanian prophet said that when the Revolt came in America-is when the enemies attacked her-hitting nuclear sites-and brought her down as the country was destabilized.
We are finding out South America is very anti-US and is consorting w/our enemies. The Romanian mentioned South America playing a large role in our demise.
Do you think the universalists/globalists care more for their "agenda" of World Govt. than for the US remaining a soverign nation? Is that why they are not protecting our borders for the most part? Because it really does not make logical sense they hardly did a thing since 911. Meanwhile they are in high gear w/these X-ray machines, bio-metrics, and RFID tracking devises all in the "Name of Terror!"
They are tracking what we look @ on the internet & have a "file" on us. They say it's only the "terrorists" they are watching.
Look @ those Utube & Google files the "entertainment" industry (& most likely others) they are suing to be released in court.
Hello, are you with me? (& remember those military "camps"?)
If we do have more terrorists causing anarchy in America-beheadings-there will indeed be a revolt. I don't see "Clint Eastwoods & John Waynes" of this country tolerating it. If someone tried to make my girls (I know the older one would not) bow down to Allah-I would be on the evening news from making a major scene.
(Our old nanny is a Muslim so that in it's self is not my gripe.BTW-we are still great friends and in touch)
I wonder what those in Britain are thinking since they are further down the road on this than us.
So what do you think this agenda is dividing us into and for what ultimate purpose?
Lisa
(Jim G there's a comment for you in the middle and at the end)
I've been around this debate likely a lot longer than you have and studied it in school albeit some time ago. What I presented are the problems with the stance against eternal security-that one can never be sure of one's salvation, that any sin causes us to lose our salvation. James 2:10 says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. " (note that it isn't just a group of behaviors but one single behavior) There are a whole bunch of verses in Romans that refer to the fact that while we are not under the law if in Christ the law's purpose is to make us aware of what sin is so that we know we need a Savior. Since God does not change his definition of what sin is, taken with the verse in James any single sin can separate us from God's fellowship-we know this because elsewhere it tells us that He cannot abide any sin in His presence at all. So if those things are true-if one can lose their salvation by sin (yes Jim G we are to abide in Him and exhibit the fruit of the Spirit but we all sin even when abiding-paul makes that quite clear as well-that he does what he doesn't want to do. If someone like Paul struggled with his sin nature after his conversion how much more so some of the rest of us? so I don't think saying that abiding gives eternal security in the face of being able to lose one's salvation through sin is true), then it follows that it takes only one sin to re-condemn a person to hell. If the view against eternal security is true-that if you can lose your salvation by sin (I don't accept that the sin in question is a consistent repetitive behavior or group of behaviors since even a single sin is an anathema to God) then it follows if you sin and then die before you can ask for salvation again you won't be in heaven. That's not an extreme position-it is what that position is if carried out to a conclusion.
Under the premise that one can lose their salvation due to sin
if A is true (one sin can separate us from God before salvation) and B is true (God doesn't change his definition of sin, the penalty for sin nor can he abide any sin in His presence) then C is true (one sin can cause you to lose your salvation). So if one sin can cause you to lose your salvation, if you die after committing that one sin without confessing it under the non OSAS position you won't be in heaven. Abiding or not. Under the OSAS position however while you might have sinned and died without confessing that sin you do go to heaven but perhaps without a reward.
I find it interesting that the prodigal son is used to support the against view for eternal security since the son never stopped being the son ever.
I guess it also depends on whether one thinks that God replaced one conditional covenant with another. The Mosaic covenant or the law and sacrifices was the only one made with the Jewish people which was conditional on their behavior. All other covenants made were conditional only on God's keeping of His promises.
as far as the poll on the number of people who think they are saved-
is that what the poll asked or did they ask "do you think you're going to heaven when you die" because that question is not the same as "are you saved". I've seen the polls where millions of people think they're going to heaven when they die and very little of it has to do with actually being born again or saved. I'll bet if a more specific poll were done
1-do you accept that the only way to heaven is via Christ's death on the cross
2-good works can not get you into heaven
3-have you ever become "born again"
the numbers would be much lower.
Jim G
as to what to do with the people who accept Christ and then repudiate Him actively later. I think one would have to question the sincerity of their original conversion. Yes, I know that's trite and cliched and I am truthfully not fully satisfied with it but the way I see it there are fewer problems with it than the position against OSAS. The OSAS community doesn't teach that you can do what ever you want after salvation. The verses on abiding are used to show that if your behavior persists after conversion and you aren't actively abiding, then the truth was never in you to begin with. If the conversion was a true one, you would exhibit the fruit of the Spirit, you would be abiding, but you would need to confess your current sins to maintain the relationship that is already there.
Going back to a comment I made above I think the root of the issue as I see it isn't necessarily faith but did God replace one conditional covenant with another conditional covenant. The position of eternal security would suggest that the covenant through Christ's blood is not a conditional covenant -Christ paid the price in total once for all and all we have to do is believe but the position against eternal security would seem to indicate that the new covenant through Christ's blood which replaced the Mosaic covenant is as conditional as the old one-yes Christ paid the price but you have to do things to keep the covenant active. Since the new covenant replaced the old one because no one was able to keep the old one, why would God replace the old with a new one that is still conditional when we've already proved that we are unable to keep conditional covenants?
got to go get ready for work
Anne
people are sheep.
there are pros and cons to the genetic testing. Could they (the dna samples) be used and would they be used for nefarious purposes. hmm, given that we are fallen people I think that the possibility exists.
however from what I presume they are going to do with it there are bona fide reasons to do mass genetic population studies.
such research could give us more and better information on
1-how genes influence which diseases we do or don't get. Some diseases we suspect are genetic to an extent but occur so infrequently or can occur in higher amounts without genetic inheritance, a mass population study would provide more information on their true incidence. Examples of this would be Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, schizophrenia and bipolar disease. I think autism might fall into this as well.
2- some diseases we know are genetic based but we don't know why some people then develop the disease and some people don't. For example the breast cancer genes. We know if those genes are positive that the person (male or female I might add) in question has a significantly higher risk of getting breast cancer than the average population but it still isn't 100%. So what else is going on and why isn't it a 100%. the other figure often quoted is that 80% of all breast cancers are NOT the result of genetic inheritance. Why is that? mass genetic studies might give some of that information. There are also cancer syndromes in which a family has an assortment of different types on cancer which then predispose each member of that family to everyone of those cancers (unless they are male and then obviously they can't get cancer of the utereus) including an odd form of colon cancer.
having said all of that I would be wary of agreeing to give up a dna sample since although the above are two excellent reasons to donate, I can think of other things that could be done without ones knowledge that we as Christians would object to.
Donna,
"That we are supposed to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice..to yeild to and allow the Holy Spirit to live thru us."
Yes we are "suppose to" but as you note not every one does.
Not only are we suppose to but we are "required to."
James 4:4,5 "Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain,"The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
7) Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil & he will flee from you. Draw near to God & He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.(one group is the lost the other professed Christians-they say one thing yet do another) Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble youselves in the the sight of the Lord & He will lift you up.
"these folks will probably not wind up in heaven."
Probably? Just say it. "They won't wind up in heaven."
The Bible tells us they will not be in heaven but will go to hell.
There is nothing wrong w/standing firm on the Word of God. If He says it we can repeat it & should.
(Of course using some finesse,compassion,& love is recommended. We don't have to run around damning everyone to hell and turning them off to His message.In fact-you in particular would be extremely effective as you tend to be more sensitive to others feelings.)
Ephesians 5:3-6
"But fornication and all uncleaness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of God.(This means Hell folks-not just rewards or crowns) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
verse 20) giving thanks always (see above mentioned "but rather giving of thanks.") for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God.
(FEAR OF GOD-We are suppose to Fear God and not what man thinks of us when we speak the Word of God. Whether it's a word of His love or a word of His judgment.)
2 Timothy 2:3-5
"You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No one engaged in warfare entangels himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enliste him as a soldier. And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules." (We are talking about crowned w/the "crown of life" James 1:12 which is a crown everyone has who is saved.) Not the additional crowns of honor such as glory & righteousness.
So there are rules to follow. They are His rules. I agree some do invent "extra" rules and we are not to be bound by those.
Joel has a new post up about possible war in November. very interesting.
"then the truth was never in you to begin with. If the conversion was a true one, you would exhibit the fruit of the Spirit, you would be abiding, but you would need to confess your current sins to maintain the relationship that is already there. "
If your conversion was a true one you would never falter or fall huh? I guess we are not reading the same Bible.
All the warnings about falling away from the faith and following after false prophets should be erased then? If we are eternally converted and saved then there is no need of any warnings.
Do you find any logic in that? A,B,& C.
"then it follows that it takes only one sin to re-condemn a person to hell. If the view against eternal security is true-that if you can lose your salvation by sin (I don't accept that the sin in question is a consistent repetitive behavior or group of behaviors since even a single sin is an anathema to God) then it follows if you sin and then die before you can ask for salvation again you won't be in heaven. That's not an extreme position-it is what that position is if carried out to a conclusion."
So I think you just answered my question. Which is the non-OSAS position stated has come from "your" conclusion and
"your" mind. I got it.
Thank goodness that's not my position.Romans 3:21-26 since the Bible does not state such.
"lose your salvation by sin." Wrong,you don't loose your salvation by sin in and of it's self. That's what Christ came here to redeem us from. We are justified by His grace, through faith in Jesus.
"I've been around this debate likely a lot longer than you have and studied it in school albeit some time ago."
I'm sure you have been around this debate longer and studied it in school as well.
Does that discount the possibility the Holy Spirit has shown me the truth in Scripture?
Because I have not debated this subject for years or attended a formal school? Therefore I am not as "qualified" to state my case.
Interesting.
Jim C.
Thanks for the shofar link. I bought one that said:
"Easy Blow, non smelly."
I figured if I'm really going to make this day a tradition every year I may as well have one.
Have you seen the Priestly Garment site before? The jewels remind me of "birthstones". (probably a pagan knock off)
The Banners if Israel is good too.
Shalom, all! AAARRRGGHH! so much to comment on, so little time. I'll settle for passing on some disturbing news reports:
Third Arrest Of A Party Official Made In The Suspected Satan Worship Abuse Case
This occurred in Durham, NC. The first two people, Joy Johnson and Joseph Craig, were charged with kidnapping, rape, and assault. The third person, Diane Palmer, was arrested later for accessory after the fact of assault with a deadly weapon, and police are looking into the possibility that she tampered with a crime scene by removing evidence. Apparently, Diane and her husband share a house with Joy and Joseph. The saddest part? Both Joy and Diane had to resign their jobs after the arrests. Joy had been the vice-chair for the Young Democrats, and the third vice-chair for the Durham County Democratic Party. Diane, on the other hand, was the FIRST vice-chair of the Durham County Democratic Party.
Does this mean that a vote for Obama is a vote for Satan?
On a more serious front, this happened in Manila, in the Philippines:
Priest gets fruit basket with fetus in cheese spread bottle
BTW, does anyone else see a connection between the Satanist activity in Orlando and Todd Bentley's Florida Revival, just about an hour's drive away?
<><
Jeff,
I forgot exactly what he was referencing to re: the angels.Most of that part speaks about the false prophets.
Here is a quick overview of those passages.
What he may have been refering to was that in 2 Peter 2:1 he mentions that the Lord also "bought" them,(meaning the false teachers)who bring on themselves swift destruction.
This is another scripture which shows Christ had "bought" and paid for every person who ever lived on earth by His sacrifice. He didn't just buy or die for a select group but for all who will hear His voice and continue to follow Him.
These false prophets brought upon themselves destruction by rejecting Christ and doing their own thing. God did not reject them 1st and damn them to hell - they damned themselves.(Verse 20 "For if, after they have escaped....")
If they once had the knowledge of Christ but again entangled themselves in false teachings-they will be judged more harshly than if they never knew the truth.
"and a sow having washed (washed clean & saved), to her wallowing in the mire.(returning to her soiled and sinful condition.)
I think that was the point he may have been making.
Since God is punishing the sinful angels-then you know he's going to punish the human false teachers.
*Some also point out that God will deliver His people out of times of Judgment.
Lisa
my comment about being around the debate longer and studying it in school was made because you called my conclusions ridiculous, extreme and that you had never heard of it before implying that I must be making it up. The comment was not made to say you didn't have other insight, couldn't have other insight than mine or to disparage your insight-only to express and clarify where I had obtained my information, that it is something I have heard before because I had studied it in school. we were made to look at all sides on a theological debate, the scripture used to back up each side of the debate and to think critically about our conclusions. One way we were taught to do this was to deductively reason (the a,b,c that I used) out to a conclusion and see if the conclusion also matched with scripture.
Part of the issue is that I see salvation as some sort of combination of predestination and free will since both are in the Bible they must therefore both be valid. If salvation was completely free will then yes you could lose your salvation. Since I do think predestination also plays a role and a conclusion of predestination would be that one can't lose their salvation I find I agree with eternal security.
If one considers that predestination might be general rather than specific-the world was created such that x number of people would be saved and that the x number comes from people using their free will to be part of the general group of the elect both points of view are honored and mesh well.
There is just as much scripture quite frankly to support the view of eternal security and the conclusions I expressed on the anti OSAS theology while not explicitly stated in scripture are the steps that I took to get there are completely based on scripture so contrary to what you implied I didn't make them up out of my own mind.
I am going to withdraw from this debate because it truly is about to become really unharmonious if I continue.
I keep thinking about a question Lisa posed the other day"
"What other topics do we discuss that creates such a reaction?" and my answer to that is: lots!
We all have our triggers...I know I do!
I think I am more the:
"judge not less you be judged"
and
'take the log out of your own eye before you try to take the splinter out of other people's eyes'
and
"let he who is without sin, caste the first stone" type.
John MacArthur states my position best. Scripture teaches that God is sovereign yet also shows man is responsible. The whole process is truly a mystery which God entirely understands. He is the Author of scripture and laid the two truths side by side. I think it boils down to a matter of perspective. What do we have to do as humans? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. After we are saved we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We are to walk in obedience. We are not to view our gift of salvation as fire insurance. The way we walk doesn't determine if we will remain saved because what God began He will finish and works don’t save us or keep us saved. The way we walk will determine how much joy we will experience and also how much of God’s loving hand of discipline we come under. What does the salvation process look like from God's perspective? Does He sit in heaven twittling His thumbs waiting for man to choose Him? I don’t see it, not for one minute. He chose me in Him before He even laid the foundations of the world…
Well, I have a ton of wedding images to edit so I’m going to get back to it...and I think this will probably be my last comment on the subject for awhile...
oops, I made that last post before realizing jib made hers.
I think some of these issues have been around a long time. We can chat and debate them, as many of us have for years, but I doubt we will all come to the same conclusions about many of these till we are in our eternal home.
I also agree with jib that things have sounded a "bit" unharmonious lately....
I fear Donna may be right. We probably won't change each other's minds. And we should take care not to bring disharmony. I'm sure many have left the cave because of just that reason.
sorry Mac and everyone else if I was making you all uncomfortable or offended you. Guess I wasn't using as much restraint as I thought.
Jib, I should clarify - I've never been uncomfortable about any of the conversations we've had here and you (and anyone else for that matter) certainly haven't come across as over bearing or showing lack of restraint, as far as I'm concerned. But I suspect others tend to shy away at times and even leave so I think we should keep this in mind. It's just a concern I have and my comment was meant to be pre-emptive.
it wasn't so much what you said as what I sensed both from the Spirit and from the tenor of others comments.
Jeff
in all the debate I didn't want you to think your requests went unnoticed because I did notice just for got to respond. I do hope things work out for you and will be praying for you. I wish I had some wise words of advice for you to guide your way and help you make some decisions. I have found when everything is all topsy turvy and I can't tell up from down or left from right that clinging to God and His word that he has a plan for me, a hope and a future as well as everything working together for good and spending a lot of time in prayer is what makes such times bearable.
I too forgot to acknowledge your concerns, Jeff. But I too am praying for God's intervention.
BTW, Kathy, I noticed Dave's comment on your blog and am praying over that as well.
Thanks Mac. I've taken to walking for 30 minutes when I first get up. It's a great time to talk to the Lord. Just so you all know, I remember my cave dwelling friends during that time...
Just a quick note to say hello and let you all know that I'm still hanging around the cave. I try to check in at least once a day, usually in the PM, Pacific Time.
As you can probably sense from some of the comments I have posted, I do enjoy the thoughtful and passionate debates about the Lord and the nature of salvation.
I love ALL of you even if we disagree from time to time. Hopefully we will all grow in our knowledge of Him and be as graceful towards one another as He was, is, and always will be towards us His children.
Jim G.
jib, thanks for your comments about the dna sampling. I still feel wary of it, though you made some good points. At least I won't be having any more children and won't have deal with it myself.
Jib,
I apologize as I apparently offended you with calling your conclusions ridiculous, extreme and that I had never heard of it before.
After your explanation of how you have been taught to think by these academic methods of reasoning I can now understand your perception.
My approach is really simple.I read the Word,compare scriptures,& pray the Holy Spirit guides me into all truths. If something is unclear I keep praying and research opposing viewpoints having faith that He will correct me if I'm off track.
So when presumptions are made after I've already stated a scriptural position-in my mind-it's as if we go on a merry-go- round of circular reasoning.
In your mind you’re using the tools which you were taught to come to a definitive conclusion.
To you it's logical. To me it's so illogical I'm almost speechless.
I'm in no way implying you don't pray,compare scripture,& the rest.
But the way your wired to come about the final conclusion is far more complex.
So I think we just have to understand our minds work in completely different hemispheres if at some point we get into another theological discussion.
(The lowest grade I ever received in College was in the "logic" class. A+B=D2. I never found it to be logical then and I still don't.)
Ahhhh - we're all safe & now playing nicely together in the cave sandbox.
I now can have a good nights sleep!
lol
Good night & peace my brothers & sisters!
This God Tube video is really something about 911!
Then I read a Comment and came to the God Tube page of
"livinghislife".
Almost all the photos in our "My Photos" section were taken by Louis Grimaldi of Grimaldiphotography.com He is anointed by God and called to do photography.
Our avatar is a photo that he took in the studio when the "In the Spirit" New Testament was recorded. All the other outdoor photos were taken in one photo shoot that lasted a day long.
I have done ministry, leading souls to Jesus with Louis for the last 5 years after being healed. He has become like a member of our family. Recently, I was home between mission trips and I received an early morning call from Louis. He said, "Hey Jim, God told me to take you out for a photo shoot today. Can you be here in about an hour?"......
So guess what one of the things he was told to bring for the photo shoot? The shofars he makes. Look @ the pictures.Is this a coincidence? Or ?
Kathy, I remember when my dog, Mac, was fit and healthy, I used to occasionally get up just before dawn for a half hour walk. I agree, it's one of the best times of the day to pray!
Lisa
hmm something to keep in mind yes? on both our parts. it doesn't hurt that while my undergrad degree is in the soft sciences and technically medicine is a soft science there is quite a bit of hard science also. part of medicine is looking at patterns, tracking patterns and connecting the dots between patterns and sometimes the connections are less than obvious.
plus I was on the debate team for a while in high school oddly enough the topic for that year was socialized medicine.
I played lots of logic games and did and do lots of crossword puzzles. they keep the brain sharp and active. the ability can be developed by the way since in high school I couldn't prove a geometric theorem to save my life.
For those who appreciate history... Here's a word of caution though. The parallels to today are alarming. I'm afraid it's just a matter of time before our actions catch up with our thinking.
Footnote on no religion and its effects on the French Revolution
Jim G.
Speaking of logic and geometric theorems, I'm still trying to figure out how to tie my shoelaces so they don't unravel as I'm running. Any clues?
Anne
even knowing the potential strides we could make with such research I would not allow a sample to be taken from my child and used however.
funny you should ask about DNA though as I just read a really somewhat creepy book about dna, autistic savants, and genetically engineering a new savior of the world. It was creepily interesting. I think Jim C would enjoy it immensely it is called
"the last oracle" it is out in hard back and can be purchased from Sam's for under $13.
the author notes made it even more creepily interesting because some of the stuff that I read within the book that I was afraid he hadn't made up he really hadn't made up. The very last page in the book is a list of notable people of the world who are thought to have autistic characteristics and they include folks like Thomas Jefferson, Helen Keller, Albert Einstein and Nostradamus.
My spirit is a little unsettled because of this book and I am not sure why. Perhaps because i can actually envision the things written about going on so I shall spend some time thinking on things above and praying.
Shoot! That last post messes with the original intent of my blog.
Well, I suppose I can say that this is what results when men and women cease thinking on "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable. If anything is excellent or praiseworthy we should think about such things."
Phil. 4:8
Jim G.
sorry Mac I passed geometry by the skin of my teeth I'd be no help :-)
Clarification. I should have said "that last post of mine to which I provided a link." Not "that last post."
Jim G.
yea but I didn't know the book was going to be that creepy and I do enjoy reading books of all kinds. I guess the fact that they were trying to genetically engineer essentially the AC and the fact that despite it being fiction given what the author notes as true it might not be that far fetched. I picked up the book originally because I was intrigued by the notion of a genetically engineered AC. It isn't a Christian book by any stretch but there is a lot of Armageddon one world imagery and conspiracy in it.
likely not a book to read if you have an overactive imagination
well I wondered but wasn't sure-not offended though, the additional time to sort through my thoughts on the book and type them out was therapeutic
On Zola Levitt, new video series.
Ezekiel and the Middle East ‘Piece’ Process: “Ezekiel: The Man, His Time, His Message — Then and Now”
Bad Advice for McCain
Iran sends missile test warning
jeff...I would have to go back and reread your posts to recall the details of the situation with your kids...but I would have to agree with Alesia...perhaps your older daughters communication with your younger daughter is her way of keeping doors open.
I personally could not imagine refusing to allow any of my kids from communicating with each other.
Kids are going thru a lot more today than we did when we were growing up...which were pretty difficult times, if you ask me.
Writing last farewell letters just does not seem right to me.
Setting boundaries, offering guidance, teaching with love does.
I certainly do not have all the answers, but that would be the direction I would go in, if at all possible.
Of course if there is abuse going on by any of your kids towards the other, that is a whole different situation.
Personally, I would not try to control all of these relationships as it all may wind up backfiring.
Obviously we all need to pray about any and all aspect of our lives and trust Him for all things, which I am sure you are already doing.
It just seems that opening doors, rather than closing doors, is the way to go.
With that said, I can't help but think of what Jen had to say regarding her brother and her parents and how they handled things and how that worked for the best.
You all will be in my thoughts and prayers....espec your older daughter.
This is the most interesting article I just came accross:
Sharia Showdown on Wall Street
By Paul Sperry
FrontPageMagazine.com | Wednesday, July 09, 2008
Sheik Muhammad Taqi Usmani has been a rock star of the Islamic finance world, sitting on the sharia supervisory boards of no fewer than a dozen Islamic banks and financial institutions worldwide.
For nearly a decade, the mufti also has advised the Dow Jones Islamic Market Index, which licenses more than 25 stock funds that comply with Islamic laws forbidding certain Western-style investments. The venerable Dow Jones & Co. first retained him in 1999.
Usmani's name is now missing from the Dow Jones website, where it had previously been prominently displayed. His bio and photo suddenly vanished without explanation.
Meanwhile, all references to Dow Jones disappeared from the website of the North American Islamic Trust, or NAIT, which runs a sharia-compliant mutual fund out of Burr Ridge, Ill.
For years the fund had been called the Dow Jones Islamic Fund. Dow had lent NAIT its good name under a licensing agreement.
But recently the trust felt compelled to rename its lead portfolio the "Iman Fund," and amend several pages in its prospectus to remove all references to Dow Jones, as well as Usmani. Again, no explanation was offered.
What's behind the mystery? It's all been very hush-hush, but according to a high-level document I've obtained, along with interviews with company insiders, Dow Jones recently terminated NAIT's license and dumped Usmani to protect its brand. The company, now under new management, no longer wants to be associated with either of them, especially after they received a spate of bad publicity this year.
The rest of the story can be read at: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=D0A52215-262C-4438-A3CD-8073D0DE26CB
Lots of rabbit trail thoughts on this one, but my mind is too puny to digest it all and put my thoughts on paper. Your thoughts?
-Jeff
From Joel new post up last night, it looks as though things will really be heating up. Are we that close folks?
-Jeff
I hope so, Jeff!
Of course, none of us wants to see any "bad" things happen.
But we know these things need to take place beforehand.
Maranatha!
Hey, Grany, are you still with us? We miss you when you're gone so long, you know!
late nite lisa and
donna,
Thanks for all of your concerns prayers and thoughts. I do believe as you stated that if I try to divide them, then it will have a backlash effect. My youngest daughter is on a fast-track downward spiral into her old ways, im praying this is not the case. and this on the heals of her coming back from a residencial treatment center for the past 10 months. Things are heating up at our house! The debate over OSAS has got me wondering. My youngest was sent to another RTC the previous year becasue we as her parents thought she would soon end up dead in some ditch. We sent her to a Christian RTC and she gave her life over to God. She even spoke in tongues's, she stated. Now if she is heading the wrong way again and ends up dead will she go to hell? As to the oldest daughter, she comes from a occult and new age background and of a family of mental illness. I see a lot of disrespect from both of them. I guess i will be the ridicule of both of their conversations and perhaps my oldest will communicate to me through my youngest which is very disrepectfull. Yes the letter will be sent and be truthful and loving and I will leave that door wide open with some kind of loving conditions I guess.
-Jeff
Alesia, that was meant for you too/also, sorry.
-Jeff
If she has accepted Christ as her personal savior, and still does, she is saved regardless of her behavior.
My step mother is into the new age and occult type things as well and it is scarey stuff, if you ask me.
(Of course they don't think it is scarey.)
Not too long ago, however, she did seem more receptive to Christianity...which totally shocked me.
All we can do is trust, hope, pray and yield.
Yes, Grany, we really, really miss you.
We really miss you and many others as well. Not only that, but we need you all, too.
we should be praying for the young man in question but at least some of the officials quoted have common sense about global warming
Climate Change Delusion requires psych hospital stay
not sure if this was posted yet
Iran War Games and missile firings-they CAN reach Israel
no big surprise BHO and McCain have different takes. BHOwants to talk and McCain wants more missiles too bad neither of them want to do anything about the real problem
Jeff,
As you have seen from our round about converstions if your:
OSAS-she's saved
non-OSAS-she's lost
The best thing to do- Open up that Bible pray(to find the truth) & read.
When I go through my Bible I highlight and underline scripture which stands out.(quite a bit is underlined no doubt)
Then I jot down where to find certain scriptures in the back of my Bible so when I'm looking for a particular topic it can be easily found.
This has helped me to grasp an overall view of God's nature-when focused in on a particular topic I sometimes go from book to book and look @ what has been underlined to see if it relates to what I'm seaching out.(Looking @ it in the context of the surrounding paragraphs of course.)
Anyway, I know we all have our own methods but this is what I have found helpful.Before I did this my Bible was prestine & I just said forget it-now there are notes all over it & I like it even more.
DREAM ALERT: (Jim C.)
This is the 3rd dream my daughter Lorraine had I think may be prophetic in some way.
The 1st was the "Goliath" one.
The 2nd was a personal dream about how she would be teaching kids the about God when she's older.(I didn't mention this one as it was just directed toward her)
This morning she came in my room "Mom I had a scary dream."
I say- Yeah, Yeah, OK then rolled back over. (She has scary dreams and they are your usual childhood type) Then she says it again-so I say-OK, what's it about! "It's about men blowing up cities."
ATTEN-TION! That got me out of bed to write it down.
I asked what type of cities-what did they look like? "Like downtown Nashville-they all had tall buildings."
"Men were blowing up cities w/tall yellow round bombs.(the shape she describes looked like a missle-about 9'tall-cylindrical-point on top)
"They put a clear tube on it so it would only explode the building they wanted it to.The men who were exploding every single high building wore casual clothes & had black hair.They stayed in the buildings when it exploded. I could look down and see people below on the streets."
"The part I liked the best is when they exploded a Bank.They wanted to turn it into an animal shelter to save dogs & puppies.I saw a dog in a soccer field with a cast on and he kicked the ball w/his other paw."
"A scientist with a brown stubble face was trying to blow up a sticky icky thing. As he tried to blow it up he got stuck inside the clear tube that was made for the bombs but the sticky icky thing never exploded."
"Then a guy with a really scruffy brown beard who wore a purple shirt w/a yellow vest jacket & jeans came in to attack the scientist. He had a shovel in his hand and a belt with bad tools in it around his waist to kill people. I saw knives. He started walking over to the scientist to kill him and was making a very evil laugh-Then I woke up."
(I think this dream my have at least something to do over a prayer of concern I had asked Jehovah the past couple nights but before I tell you what that was about- anyone feel led to respond to the dream?)
Jib,
Crossword puzzles- I stink.
Searchword-I love (:
Nate,
Did you read the comments on your comet link? Here's some:
19. A BEATIFUL SIGN FROM GOD ALMIGHTY THAT HIS BELOVED ISRAEL SHALL STRIKE DOWN ITS ENEMEYS AND SECURE PEACE AND PROSPERITY ON THEIR GIVEN LAND! SHALOM!
A dramatic sign from God that Israel is safe and under His protection, and should not worry for He shall DESTROYthe enemy of both Israel and the world- IRAN!Possessed by the devil,these henchmen of hate, these evil mullahs and their puppet Ahmidinijad,shall have earned the wrath of God and will be struck down by lightning and fire!Woe on to you who do the bidding of satan!And,to those nations that fight on the side of good and righteousness,God will look upon you with favor and blessing.So to iran I say,you wll reap what you have sown!Yours is a bleak and dark future.MayGod forgive your souls!
18. Ahmadinejad's new Space Craft, LOOK closely you can actually see him smiling! ROFLMAO
12. UFO seen by thousands IS real news.
For those who are unaware of the significance - this was seen by tens of thousands of people, lasted several minutes, over more than a two hundred mile area with 5 million residents. This was a meteor so low in the atmosphere that a shrieking sound could be heard and perhaps it even split in two. In addition it was purplish and not white. Nobody reported seeing an impact so even the meteorite explanation is just an assumption. Might as well be considered a UFO. And even if it's a meteor, must be in the 'dozens of grams' area and not "a few grams".
Josh - Israel (07/09/2008 01:50)
7. Worthy story
This is definitely a story worthy of front page billing. News is that which impacts large numbers of people. Weather, car accidents, traffic, all can be worthy even if mundane. As many people in the center of the country saw this, it's a rare event, and in my opinion rather interesting as a celestial event visible from Eretz ha'hKodesh- good job Jpost!
22. Jews take heart
Ahmed #16, meteors and other natural phenomenon are not feared by us. Regarding your claim that the Jews are scared ot Iran, since the Iranian leader began threatening Israel two and a half years ago, Tehran is nearly choking in smog, a plane full of Iranian military correspondents crashed, and another plane went down, killing the Top Commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. If the Iranian leader continues on his collision course with the Jewish people who knows what calamaties are in store for him and his nation. Not from Israel, but from G.od. Jews, take heart
27. Israel bombed
israel will be crashed too pieces soon.They think that they can control everithing but i think israel has forgoten that God is against them.Soon it is going too come the dooms day,where will you run then?
Timi - (07/09/2008 17:03)
Shalom all! A (hopefully) quick question:
Where in Scripture does it say that Israel will stand alone during Gog/Magog? Is it explicit, or is it implicit in that it lists all the nations that will attack without listing one nation that will help defend?
<><
Lisa, Shalom to you and your daughter!
Give me some time to think and pray about this. It almost sounds like she's mixing dream elements. Was it one bomb per building or one bomb per city? If it was one bomb per building, the dream wouldn't make sense, except as a generalized anxiety dream. She's seen pictures of missiles and knows they blow things up, so that element gets worked into the dream. So, like I said, I'll think an pray about this, but my first impression is that this is not prophetic.
BTW, last night I ran across the "Dream Registry" web site. This is a place where you can register your dreams (i.e., write them down so they are time and date stamped) so later on you can go back and see if the dream was in fact prophetic. I'm mentioning this because there are several people who have dreamed of earthquakes hitting San Francisco and destroying the Golden Gate Bridge, much like the vision Dumitru Duduman was given on Feb. 3, 2006. One person was very specific: a 7.0 earthquake hitting Marin County, damaging the bridge; three months later, an 8.0 hitting San Francisco itself, this time destroying the bridge permanently; followed shortly thereafter by an invasion from Russia and China. I'l keep checking back on that site to see if anything else pops up.
<><
Jim,
OK, I re-asked her.
She saw several bombs destroy several buildings but in one city.
I asked her if she's seen a bomb before and she said not in real life.
I asked her if she's seen a bomb in her cartoons and she said that she had. "It's a black round ball with a thingy sticking out of it."
So I asked her if it looked like the one's in her dream and she said no. That it was tall and round w/a point.
So honestly I don't know if she has ever seen a missile or not.(She just turned 7) It's possible she could have seen one on TV @ some point but we don't watch "the news" so I can't say for sure.
She likes to watch "I dream of Jeanie" movies and knows what an astronaut's rocket looks like.
(The dog & soccer part do seem thrown in there.)
I am trying real hard to catch up with all of your chatter but it is hot here and I get really sleepy when it gets this hot. But there is something that I want to say about Once Saved Always Saved and Not!
I have told you in the past of my salvation experience in 1964 in a little northern Missouri town. Oh, I loved the Lord so much and just wanted everyone else to find that same kind of connection to a precious and loving Father and Son. Then we moved to Oklahoma in 1970 and oh, the scene changed as far as my choice of friends and church. We worked for a very powerful man who had started a little fellowship church that was kinda related to the Christian Church doctrine but more on the Church of Christ tradition. Well, what we didn't know was that this man had started this church because he would not come into alignment with the biblical concepts of the Christian Church and wanted to have a feel good relationship without the restrictions or control of the word. He was a very wealthy businessman that I had worked for in Missouri for years and one that I had thought was really sincere about his relationship with the Lord.
We were exposed to huge amounts of riches, power and a big lack of structure. All the glamorous people circulated in and out of our lives everyday and our social life became something that a lot of people would only dream of. My husband had never had much in the way of luxury in his life but he was a very hard worker and dreamed of things that only rich people can claim.
He was easy to lead astray and became very close to the Big Rich Employer, traveling all over the country and experiencing the benefits of the rich man's life. He became ensnared by a *wormy apple* :(
He delved into the spoils of that life with women, money and whatever else there was offered.
Then I found out that he was misusing the funds that he was accountable for and I refused to have any part in it. I threatened to go to the Rich Man Employer and of course, that was the wrong thing to do. To make this all a little shorter, we ended our 16 year marriage in a divorce court in 1971, a little over a year after we moved to Oklahoma.
The rich man, I found out later, was as much involved in the money scheme as my ex was and all of the stuff that I had not known before our divorce, started coming out into the open. All the women, the sexual perversion and the deeds that are best left unsaid started landing on my doorstep and I soon lost all desire to have Christian fellowship or any other kind of fellowship. Even the church where we had attended for that period of time, turned against me because my former employer and my ex husband turned all of the affairs responsibility over to me. I can't see how cooking, sewing, cleaning and caring for growing children could be the cause of the evilness of two grown men.
I was so very angry with God but I didn't realize that was the real situation until a wonderful Christian neighbor at my apartment complex just point blank said "Wilma, why are you blaming God for what has happened to you and your family?" I worked 3 jobs just to make ends meet because I also had to pay off all of the debts my ex had left behind. He moved back to Missouri and I was easier to harass. Besides, I didn't want the people to suffer who had, out of good faith, extended credit to us.
I didn't try to go back to church until my mother came to Arkansas to live with me after the death of my step-father. That was in 1977. I turned away from God but he never, at any moment, turned away from me. I have learned that he will send the hounds of heaven after those he loves and calls his own.
Not a moment went by that I couldn't tell that the Holy Spirit was wooing me, big time. A pretty leaf floating into my scarf in the fall, a little wild canary landing on my open window sill while I was ironing my next weeks clothes for work and singing me the most beautiful praise song I have ever heard, a little golden flower popping up on my concrete patio where the sun hit it and bounced the light back over everything sitting there. A little creek that just gurgled and bubbled over little rounds rocks and a little tadpole streaking past my wet feet in the creek. So many things but the most important was "I love you Wilma, and I miss your fellowship with me"! So many times I would turn on my radio and hear messages that didn't last very long but always spoke volumes of love to a love starved mother. I never felt that God had left me even though I had left him.
He wooed me until I couldn't say no anymore and then my mother came and she wanted to go to church so very bad. I didn't really respond to her and always had other plans for my free time. God took hold of the situation and sent a young group of people to our door one cold, windy and snowy winter evening in 1980. We had just popped some corn and made cocoa when the door bell rang and we weren't expecting anyone to call. I opened the door and there stood 3 of the sweetest looking young people in the whole town of Ft. Smith. They said they were with the Evangelistic Fires group being sponsored by the Baptist, Methodist, etc. churches of Ft. Smith and they would love to come in and talk with us about Jesus. I thought, you are wasting your time because I have been there and not interested anymore; my mother is already a Christian but come in anyway and get warm.
We offered them cocoa and pop corn and after intros were exchanged, they began to tell us of a wonderful savior by the name of Jesus. My mother was all attention and when they asked her if she would like to belong to his Body and be saved, to my total surprise she said "YES". They all knelt in front of the fireplace and prayed the sinners prayer with her and lead her to His Kingdom.
He reached through all of my anger and my tears and took hold of both of us in a way that only He could do. My mother, dreadfully fearful of water in any tank or pool or ocean, was totally immersed in the Baptist Church 2 weeks later and I will never forget it. God didn't lose me, turn loose of me, desert me or destroy me. I turned loose and he corrected the situation with great love, mercy, grace and patience and dedication.
I believe we can walk away from our relationship but that doesn't mean he has to agree with our decisions and he is free to pursue what belongs to him forever. He doesn't tire out easily either. My comeback was even greater and more powerful than my first station in faith. He spoke light into being and he overcame a little virgin girl with the Holy Spirit and gave us Jesus Christ. What makes you think he can't snatch back what the devil has deceived and led astray?
Maybe the reason people walk away from their relationship has a lot more to do with how they are treated by other humans than it is about their relationship with God.
My question to all of you: Are you living your life as a reflection and inspiration of the love of God or are you giving a hurting being created in the image of God, Son and Holy Spirit a reason to avoid God, Son and Holy Spirit? Only you know for sure and it is up to you to make the necessary corrections to your attitude and life.
All any of us can do is build up the faith of our brothers and sisters in Christ and remember, He Loved you enough to die for you. Does doctrine of men supersede the Word of God? If you believe different than the Gospel, change your doctrine. The Word is Right!
Love you all,
Grany
Grany!
Your back! Yippee! We must have got you all riled up!
I was brought back to the Lord as well-although my major de-rail was due to the follies of youth & the lasting effects of the JW experience. Nothing to do with anger but rather deception.
But it took a persistant Christian Friend to gently show me the way back.She didn't preach to me as she knew I had a Christain background.Just encouraged me to go to Church which I did because I saw Christ live through her example. I could see it and knew she & her family had the real thing.
So just allowing Christ to shine through you and giving a little encouragement to someone you know may be all it takes to set a backslid Christian back on track. (Of course the Holy Spirit is the force behind it)
But then again if your OSAS I suppose it doesn't really matter all that much to reach out to someone like me (before) as I was already saved regardless of my current actions in your sight.I just happened to be in an "off" period.
Lisa
at the risk of restarting our little debate-did you notice your word choice. "brought back to" in stead of "re-saved"? just asking.
you seem to have the wrong idea about OSAS-your salvation yes was intact but you needed to be restored to your first love so no one would have left you alone much as no one left Grany alone either. They wouldn't have been doing it with salvation in mind-they would have been doing it with restoration in mind and there is a big difference between the two.
Grany
PTL for your testimony I've had a REALLY rough day and needed a blessing.
this is incredible
Gay man from BHO campaign suing two Bible publishers over the use of "homosexual" in the Bible!!!
Thanks for that wonderful testimony, Grany! I'm a perfect example of how God chases someone down and brings them to Him.
What a great post! Thank you so much, Grany, for taking the time to write all of that out!
:)
Lisa, Shalom! Can you ask her to draw you a picture of the bomb in the dream? I'm trying to figure out what the "clear tube" is and where it's positioned.
Frankly, it almost sounds like a movie. Is it something she could have seen at a friend's house, a cartoon, perhaps?
<><
You all have really been busy! I am still trying to catch up (Ketcup) with all of the comments from the 2 previous posts and I feel like I am running on quick sand! By the way Lisa, I don't consider myself OSAS or Predestined or Calvinist or Charismatic. I am a Child of the King and looking forward to seeing Him Face to Face in all of his Glory! I have more in heaven waiting for me than I have here on earth and I don't want to screw it up!
I have had to give up a lot of my time on the computer because it really makes my eyes hurt, which in turn makes me have vicious headaches. Learning to lean on Jesus is becoming a necessary mind set and coming from a very independent background doesn't help the situation at all but oh, my the benefits it affords is priceless and HEAVENLY!
JIB you know I love you and enjoy your clean and concise ability to cut through all of the fat of doctrine and get to the nerve and veins of the scripture. Thank you for sharing your insight with us. I know how busy you are and I know the price you pay for your dedication here.
JIM G. I wasn't able to welcome you to the cave when you started and I want to correct that slight right here and now. Welcome and I look forward to your insights too. You see, I have always considered that NO ONE MAN has all the answer to what the Holy Spirit was saying and is saying in the scriptures and it is only when we come together and discuss what the means to us that we begin to see his word like a prism's reflection of all the lights and colors in the spectrum. We learn and grow when we share. We do have a responsibility to know what we are sharing because truth is worth sharing but wrong doctrine and teaching needs to be exposed and relegated to the Potters House for reshaping and/or discarding.
I have a wonderful pastor friend who is a real blessing in my life and many others. He feels that we will go through part of the tribulation and gives his reasons based on the scriptures he has studied. I don't agree but we still learn so much in our discussions to the place that when I gave him Dr. Frucht's book "Israelology: The Missing Link In Systematic Theology" our phone line has become over charged with energy and power. It is not an easy book to read but I guarantee you, it is one of the most profound and edifying books I have ever read. It is in a class all by itself and even more enlightening than the book I got started with Dr. Frucht on "Footsteps of the Messiah". Then I came into the possession of Dr. E. W. Bullinger's book "Commentary on Revelation" and I am still hovering over the Sea of Hormuz", yelling and screaming all the time. Now let me tell you all something that seems so strange to me in regard to all of this. I have a bunch (BIG LOTS) of Christian books that I have purchased, that have been given to me and some from my Mother and Brother's estate. A lot of them were just gathering dust and I had tried to read them in the past and they just left me "what did that say" feeling. I could have read them for the last 10 years and not known anymore what I had read than before I started. All of a sudden these books are beginning to make total sense and are fitting the pieces all together in complete harmony! Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ, etc. authors who wrote about their theology and revelation of God's word before Israel ever returned to the Jews; long before 1860's and long before Scofield's Study Bible. I have found books that predate Teddy Roosevelt's days and way before telephone and other conveniences.
They were ideas put to paper and published in some manner, sometimes very crude means but shared. They probably caused a lot of discussions and a whole lot of anger but guess what, they are bearing fruit now. One of the books covered the restoration of Israel to a nation and the anger that caused was horrific. I have the subsequent rebuttal that was written to shot down that idea. But they were thinking and talking and discussing but not as rapidly as we can today. All of their work is now helping all of us to come to an understanding of what God is doing and where we are heading very soon.
I think it is great and I get so excited about it and I just want to stay around and take part in the rest of the story! I want to live out my life every learning and ever seeking God's intent and purposes for my life so I can share the wonder of His love and his great passion for all of us.
I didn't start in a life cycle of slim or monkey's so I don't play in the World's sandbox. I won't vote for Obama and I don't feel McCain is the answer either. I want God to show me what to do and I will do it and that is the end of the story. But politics and politicians will fail and have. The economy will fail like it has in the past and times will get tough. Tough people survive but God's people are blessed and thrive.
So, here's to thriving, striving, and surviving. No talk of going back to the world and no talk of losing our salvation.
I leave you with this scripture passage from John 17, starting with verse 11:
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. "
Shalom
Grany
Lisa, Shalom! In your reply to Jeff, you wrote:
As you have seen from our round about conversations if you're:
OSAS-she's saved
non-OSAS-she's lost
I'm curious: does anyone else here believe in redemptive suffering? This is the idea that by accepting the pain, hardships, and difficulties in your life, you can "offer them to G_D" and obtain spiritual benefits for someone else, like when you are praying for them.
<><
Jim C,
I know of no Scripture that would support the idea of man obtaining spiritual benefits for another person by suffering on their behalf. Christ suffered for us on the cross (1 Pe. 2:21) and of course the benefit is salvation and eternal life for those who put their trust in Him. That passage in 1 Pe. also says Christ's sufferings are a model to us of endurance in unjust suffering. Like Christ, we are to never retaliate with words or threats. That was how He was our example. Christ committed Himself to God who judges righteously. 2 Cor. 1 talks about God and how He comforts us in all our afflictions so that we can be comforters to others. That is the benefit derived from suffering for righteousness sake and identifying with Christ, to help comfort others when the same happens to them. As the end approaches, we will have more opportunities, I'm sure!
Wilma,
Thank you for sharing that with us! I have read through it twice now and cried at each reading.
You just do not know how much I appreciate you!
Grace
Jim C.
"redemptive suffering"- No not I.
OK, I'm going to tell you what I thought what the dream may have pointed to "in part"
Remember that Romanian Pastor I linked to the other day? And his prediction on a major nuke attack in CA and other states? It was literally going to wipe the state out.
Since I'm moving back to CA-Sodom and Gomorrah-I started thinking about that. Not in fear of myself since I firmly believe Christ's children will be spared from such devastating judgment.
But it got me to think about all the dreams & visions of Judgment upon America and many have to do w/nuclear attacks. If the nuclear attack was as bad as my mind envisions it- then if we were "caught up" @ that point-it would forgo any chance of the people who have been witnessed to and warned which were left behind to repent and turn to Jesus.
I found the senario to be quite disturbing so I sought it out in prayer to God since that post. I told Him my concern-not that I wanted to tell Him how to run the show but that I was worried about the possibility of it happening that way & people not having another opportunity to turn to Him.
(They would be sizzled)
So when my daughter walked in this morning w/a bomb dream-it caught my attention.
I also thought the "clear plastic tube" was strange. No one uses that over a bomb. But when she told me "They put a clear tube on it so it would only explode the building they wanted it to."
That could be an answer telling me the destruction is more localized and specific. Not to worry about major widespread destruction before the "catching up." Most people will have another chance to turn to the Lord.
As far as the other stuff- I have not a clue.The Bank-we know they are a target for the terrorists. I thought the belt w/knives could be a suicide belt-the goo could be deception the scientist is trying to expose but he is contained from doing so.
(stuck in the same clear tube)???
? Then an evil Islamic man (beard) comes to kill him w/the belt on.
(That part is all a giant guess)
Maybe like you said it's nothing but the coincidence of my prayer and her dream was uncanny.
Jib,
"they would have been doing it with restoration in mind"
OK-that's a thought. If I was still acceptable in God's eyes-why would it matter if I was "restored" or not? Wouldn't you spend more time on unbelievers who you know are not saved?
"brought back to" in stead of "re-saved"? just asking.
"brought back to" is referring that I once had fellowship with the Lord-but I also believe He doesn't give up and is never far from us and if/when we are ready to respond to his calling-we are brought back into fellowship with Him by the power of the Holy Spirit. (As long as we didn't die meanwhile in a rebellious condition)
You know the parable. The lost sheep (the sinner-former sheep & Christ follower) who repents (turns back to the Lord).The sheep is lost but the shephard will call for him until the sheep turns back(repents) then is brought back into the fold & the family of Christ.
"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."
Jib, when I was a lost sheep I was hoping that OSAS was correct as you hear many things along the way.
That way I had no worries that I may be hell bound even though I knew God was not pleased with my actions. It was not until I repented and came to study the Word I changed my thoughts on the matter. (It had nothing to do w/what my Church was teaching)
But at the same time it was obvious to me (after the fact) God made the 1st move to change my life situation, planted the seed (my new friend) and the rest is history.
I realize many people believe OSAS and as human nature would have it most non-OSAS Christians like the "idea" of it as well. I honestly rather follow that conclusion than the conditional security view.
My problem is however what I see in scripture says otherwise and my conscience won't allow me to bend on it.
For you it's great as almost every professed Christian is saved no matter what. For me it's worrisome because it removes those who are not actively following Him which would be classified as "Lukewarm" Christians.
So although we disagree-I think we have at least come to a better understanding of these opposing viewpoints.
Wilma - another great post. I have to concur with you about Frucht's book "Israeleology". It's a hard read but very handy for reference. I find the same thing re some old books I have around - sometimes I go back to them long after putting them down and suddenly get that "aha" moment.
Jim C; re redemptive suffering - the only efficacious suffering came from our Lord’s work on the cross. The only practical thing we can do is witness to, and pray for, people.
Obama, McCain split on Iran's missile tests
Shalom, all! Another late night (I have to work on the timing of my meds!) but productive. I'm presenting for your consideration a reply to a woman on the Catholic Answers forum who seems fixated on the idea that Gog and the Antichrist are the same person. While typing out my response, I was struck with something I wanted to share with you all. My message to her is as follows:
==========
JNC, Shalom! In post #217, you discuss Daniel 7:8 in regards to my list of participants in the War of Gog and Magog. Daniel 7:8 has to do with the Antichrist. Remember: GOG IS NOT THE ANTICHRIST!
There are a number of wars and conflicts that will be taking place in the Middle East. These are all preparation for the Antichrist. In fact, they will be necessary for the Antichrist to step forward, arrange peace treaties, and become known as a man of peace. For sure, we have the War of Gog and Magog, described in Ezekiel 38 and 39. But there are also two other events noted in scripture that are separate from the events described in Revelation.
First is Psalm 83. Psalm 83 describes a coalition attacking Israel, and being humiliated. "Cover their faces with shame, till they pay you homage, LORD." (verse 17) The coalition is made of, "The tents of Ishmael and Edom, the people of Moab and Hagar, Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek, Philistia and the inhabitants of Tyre. Assyria, too, in league with them gives aid to the descendants of Lot." (v. 7-9) This is a coalition that never existed in Biblical times, but is all too possible today. "The tents of Ishmael and Edom, the people of Moab and Hagar, Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek" are present day Jordan and Syria next to the Golan; "Philistia and the inhabitants of Tyre" are the Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon, areas controlled by Hizbullah. "Assyria" is the northern region of Iran. (If you want to get picky, it's the northern regions of Iran and Iraq, with parts of Syria and Turkey thrown in. In other words, it's the territory presently occupied by the Kurds, who are the descendants of the Medes. But that's another message...) So Iran supplies weapons (aid) to Jordan (we already know they're supplying weapons to Hizbullah) and plots with them to attack Israel. The "Why" isn't discussed in the Psalm, but given recent events, I imagine it would be a way to distract Israel from attacking Iran's nuclear weapons facilities. (Either that or it's in retaliation for the attack.) Israel with the help of the Lord defeats her enemies AND ALSO TAKES LAND. (More on this in a moment.) Because of this war, we finally have the situation described in Ezekiel 38, where Israel is a land of people, "all of whom now dwell in security."
Why does Israel take land? Two reasons: during this war, either Fatah will join with Hizbullah in attacking Israel, or they will reject Hizbullah and side with Israel. In either case, at the end all the "troublemakers" are expelled from Judea and Samaria into Jordan. In order to protect Israel, Israel sets up a "protective zone" on the east side of the Jordan, to keep people from firing rockets or launching attacks on Israel (as is happening today.) We know this is the case because Ezekiel 39:11 says "On that day I will give Gog for his tomb a well-known place in Israel, the Valley of Abarim east of the sea..." The area chosen for the burial of the enemy soldiers appears to be the valley at the bottom of the Old Jericho Road, near the Temptation wilderness. It's described as being in Israel in Ezekiel 39:11 but today it's part of the Palestinian West Bank. Traditionally, they call it the Valley of the Shadow of Death.
Second, there is Isaiah 17, the Oracle on Damascus. This is where Damascus is totally destroyed, never to be reoccupied. Now, it's possible that this could occur during the Psalm 83 War, or during the War of Gog and Magog, or any time in between. When it does NOT occur is during the Reign of the Antichrist. The Antichrist is supposed to be a man of peace; there is no reason for him to destroy Damascus.
It's getting late, so I'll end this message here and finish answering your question from message #217 tomorrow.
============
The thing that struck me was where I discuss the reasons for the attack of Psalm 83. Iran doesn't arrange this to distract Israel from attacking; Iran arranges this BECAUSE Israel attacked and now Iran must retaliate!
During the 1973 war, Israel advanced to within 10 miles of Damascus. I can see something like this happening again -- Israel beats back the attackers and establishes a 20-kilometer "occupation zone". They may just take that land as their due given that Jordan et. al. attacked them (again.)
In any case, Russia won't get involved overtly, because the mutual defense treaty with Iran only goes into effect if either Russia or Iran or Syria get attacked, not if they do the attacking. But if this does happen, this could be the reason Israel lives in peace, in un-walled cities.
<><
Tehran missile tests fail to impress
FAITH UNDER FIRE
U.N. scheme to make Christians criminals
Sharia-following Islamic nations
demanding anti-'defamation' law
In just two years Remember the election in 2006? Thought you might like to read the following:
A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.
Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have seen:
1) Consumer confidence plummet;
2) The cost of regular gasoline soar to $4.00 a gallon;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate (stock and mutual fund losses);
5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars;
6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!
Remember it's Congress that makes law not the President. He has to work with what's handed to him.
Quote of the Day........'My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it.' -- Barack Obama
Taxes under Clinton 1999 (C)
Taxes under Bush 2008 (B)
(C)Single making 30K- tax $8,400
(B) Single making 30K - tax $4,500
(C)Single making 50K - tax $14,000
(B) Single making 50K -tax $12,500
(C)Single making 75K - tax $23,250
(B) Single making 75K - tax $18,750
(C)Married making 60K - tax $16,800
(B) Married making 60K- tax $9,000
(C)Married making 75K - tax $21,000
(B)Married making 75K - tax $18,750
(C)Married making 125K - tax $38,750
(B)Married making 125K - tax $31,250
It is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If Obama is elected, he will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen. This is like the movie The Sting with Paul Newman; you scam somebody out of some money and they don't even know what happened.
To the faithful you show yourself faithful; to those with integrity you show integrity. To the pure you show yourself pure, but to the wicked you show yourself hostile. You rescue those who are humble.…As for God, his way is perfect. All the Lord's promises prove true.
Psalm 18:25-27,30 NLT
Faithful and dependable
A hot morning shower, a fresh cup of coffee. The lights in your kitchen and bathroom. What would you do if you were deprived of the basics of your dependable morning routine? Many of us would start shutting down. It's easy to take hot water and electricity for granted. The same is true of faithful love. It's easy to take for granted the person who is always there to listen to your problems. It's easy to take for granted the person you run to when you're frustrated or in trouble. It's even easier to take for granted God's faithful care for you and your family. Every day God sustains the world in which we move and live. He provides food, clothing, and opportunities for employment. Most important, he showers love and concern on us every day. Our God is a faithful God. He is entirely dependable.
That same type of faithful and dependable love is the foundation of every strong relationship. Love is cheap if it's given only when things are going fine. Our love for others must be consistent and dependable.
I don't know if anyone reported on this: Suicide blast & Red Mosque
It's about this guy named "Dr.Khan" who is trying to unsurp President Pervez Musharraf.
Jim,
You brought up a good point about the Psalm 83 attack. I really don't know much about that one.
So it's different from Gog & Magog? The countires/peoples forming the alliance?
Remember somewhere around here I posted the "Perry Stone" lecture about Gog being an "evil spirit" since he's mentioned again in Revelation?
That makes more sense to me than Gog being an actual "person." There is probably a leader involved but he's controlled by "Gog" although he isn't himself "Gog."
Perry also mentioned that Israel is no longer "walled" like the fortified cities of the past or as they were a walled city in the past. They have a partial wall/border against Pakistan but that would not constitute a "walled" city.
Grany, thanks for your heartfelt testimony. It is precious, indeed, and I appreciate your willingness to share it with us.
Lisa
Then I think you are missing much of the point of being saved. The point of being saved is not just securing one's eternal destiny, it is also the restoration of man's fellowship with God and the blessings that bestows. It's kind of like when folks get married or start dating-they think all their single friends should be married and dating because it's so fabulous. We as Christians should not only want people to come to Christ to secure their eternal destiny but also to enjoy the fabulous benefits of fellowship with God. God used those folks who came to Grany's house to draw her back and restore her to fellowship with Him. Can you imagine how stressful and empty her life would have been if they had not gone to her house and show her the way back and help restore her to her rightful place? How bad did your life get when you weren't in a right relationship with God? I can tell you how bad mine got and like Grany I could feel Him tugging at me and wooing me even though I wasn't interested. Even the prodigal son got it after awhile-"this is so stupid. what am I doing in this horrible place-I having nothing to eat, no friends, no bed and even the lowest members of my father's house are better off than this. I'll go back but I am so embarrassed that I brought shame to him and to myself that I just want to stay out of sight and I'll just ask to be a servant because that's what I deserve I don't deserve anything more than that"
God created man originally for fellowship with Him which man destroyed. Throughout the ages God seeks out man for fellowship with Him but sin remains a barrier. Christ was sent to make a bridge for fellowship with God which happens also to include eternal fellowship.
Grany
thank you for your kind words.
Jim C
everyone else has answered the question about suffering so I won't bother except to say I agree. A while back you did ask about Israel being abandoned in the Gog and Magog war.
the answer to that is somewhat of an inferred answer.
In Ez 38 when the coalition comes against Israel other nations ask "what are you doing". I think that suggests to most that no one comes to her aid or at least they are caught off guard such that they don't have the time or ability to respond.
Further in Ez 39 21-29 God explains the reason for the war (which I think is more conclusive as to why no one will help) is so that
1-Israel will know God is her Lord,
2-to show His glory amongst the nations and
3-to show the nations that the only reason God has not been active on Israel's behalf to this point is that he was punishing her for her sins as a nation and
4-so that the nations will know that Israel has regained her status in God's eyes (this later part is why many place this event after the rapture because of God's dealing separately with the Church and Israel. I think that's a little artificial but that's a whole other subject).
So given the purpose of the war I think it is interpreted that none will stand with Israel and she will be on her own. If the US or anyone else stood with Israel in that day Israel would be more inclined to say it is by the hand of our friends we have been delivered from this and not by God's hands. God has not forgotten that Israel the nation are His chosen ones and is going to woo them rather vigorously. God has not forgotten them as a nation despite their sin and will restore them to their rightful place.
hah
apparently the photos that Iran released of their missile tests were doctored by the Iranians!
Doctored photos
Lisa, Shalom! The point about "walled cities", etc., is to show that the people live in security. Given what we have today, we can live in cities without walls, but still live without security. The people in Sderot certainly live in a city without walls, but don't have security.
Also, while "Gog" may be a spirit, it's also a title, like "Majesty" or "He Who Causes The Sun To Rise". Therefor it's possible for Gog to be both now and at the end of time.
<><
Oh, and Lisa, Psalm 83 is different from Gog/Magog not just because the cast of players is different, but because the outcome is different. Psalm 83 talks about humiliating the attackers. In Gog/Magog, the attackers are destroyed.
<><
Take a look @ this UTUBE VIDEO
Keep in mind the other "sources" paralleling Christianity. I just want you to look at it as a "what if" scenario. What if this really took place?
Especially take note @ the end.
"Lights in the sky"
"You will not believe your eyes"
"Some WILL look like us"
"Others will not"
*Then a picture of an angel w/wings -"The cosmic guides will assist us" (New age & Todd Bentley)
This is all suppose to take place in the year 2012-If the Trib were to start in 2008-that would be the year of the "Anti-Christ" take over. When his true nature is revealed.
Do you see the Jews going along with this concept? If 2012 was the beginning of the Trib & this came about-I don't see them falling for it-Do you?
Jim C.
I get it if we are only speaking of the attackers themselves.
But even if they are dead-(but alive in eternal hell)wouldn't than bring upon humiliation to them & their people anyway?
It does depend how you interpret "walled cities". If figuratively yes-literally no.
Gog as a title of what? Title yes. But what does the title represent?
Any bad guy-or a particular one?
(I don't mean to get picky-just working through the thought process w/you. It helps)
I have a prayer request, please.
A work colleague (who I just recently found out was a fellow christian - by boldly sending her my blog address) Just sent me this request:
Dear All,
I am asking if you could please pray for a person to whom my husband and I have come to know and love. Her name is Teresa, she is married and has two children. She has Lupus and on top of that she also has Sarcoidosis. The diseases are advancing at a rapid rate and the doctors have pretty much given up hope for her. All sorts of resources have been tried to help her condition but none has worked. She is now having trouble breathing, her internal organs are hurting, she is tired much of the time, and it is painful upon her skin to even take a shower.
Where there is no hope, there is God. I do believe that God hears prayers!
I am praying that God would touch her to restore her body. If you could please keep her in prayer I would be most grateful. Thank you.
In His Love,
Lai Lonne
Alesia, I'm praying for Teresa.
Joel has a new post.
There is so much going on in the world right now, I've been online for hours, reading various articles and listening to the report on EMP to the House Armed Services Committee, which Joel also mentioned.
I'll provide a couple links in a minute.
Testimony on the threat posed by Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) attack
This link brings you to the House Armed Services Committee website, hearing details. Click on the audio to hear the expert witness and chairman of the Commission to assess the threat, Dr. Graham. I also followed along with his written report (the pdf file). He doesn't follow word for word, and adds a bit more info than what is in the written report.
This is a long hearing and I haven't yet finished listening. But, during the question/answer time Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD) mentioned a book soon to be published which describes the US after an EMP attack. According to the book after one year only 10% of the population will survive. Dr. Graham responded something like, yes that is in the range of what we expect. I think the book will be named "One Second After" if I remember right.
From Joel's link
Iran in Preparations, Deployment to Withstand Possible Attack by West
IRGC commander Jafari explained the importance attributed by the regime to this plan, saying: "One of the effective ways to deal with the America's asymmetrical threat against Iran, [which has existed] for the past six or seven years, is through basic operations of 'Passive Defense'... [18] Passive Defense is [also] one of the ways to deal with the pressure exerted on the people in times of war. The goal is to involve them [in defense efforts], and this is even more important than our military readiness."
...establishing procedures for implementing emergency mechanisms; establishing training workshops; [27] conducting passive defense courses at universities; [28] and holding drills to increase public readiness. Jalali reported, "Last year, [Iran] readied 45,000 schools [for the eventuality of an attack], and carried out several drills; this year [it] will carry out several [additional] drills and programs."
Me again. If the Iranians know enough to get their people involved in preparing for an enemy attack, why don't we? Why aren't our national and local governments (and churches!) doing more to ready citizens for man made or natural disasters? And, BTW, why am I not doing more!?! I guess because I get tired of being the Christian alarmist nut among friends and family (Oh, brother, is she going to bring up that end times stuff again?). Not good enough. "Never tire of doing good..."
I'll settle down a bit now.
Hi, I just wanted to let you all know that Uncle Bob's book is out.
Unlocking God's Secrets
I read the unedited version and I was quite impressed. It's very interesting.
If you have any questions for him, just email him, tell him Lori sent you. he he he
lori
Lori - That looks like a really interesting book.
Is it a print on demand? I went to purchase & it said it was out of stock.
Oh Pu-leeze!
"As planet swelters, are algae unlikely saviour?"
I'm not even going to link the article - it would be a waste of reading. Just thought it was a ridiculous title!
Anne - I read a Christian fiction book several years ago - I think the title was "The Silence" where all electricity was blown out in the US/World. I think they thought it was due to a giant solar flare. Very scary! I actually read up on solar flares after that to see if it could really happen (much like what an HEMP or EMP would do) & yep, it can. I do believe that only a small percentage of people would survive after 1 year.
People should learn (at least) minimal survival skills IMO.
Looking for something else I found a couple more interesting tidbits.
1.The Freemasons have a program going around to schools which are finger printing,eye scanning & recording your children's voices.
2. Disneyworldhas a system set up to scan your thumb print before you enter the park. I thought to myself-O crud I guess I won't be going there-but they don't publicize the fact they WILL still accept your Licence.
(At least for now.)
Iranian university lecturer Ali-Reza Karimi: "The beliefs of these fundamentalist Evangelical Christians, and their support of the Zionists and Zionism, are based on world domination, with Israel at its center. This will be achieved by means of age-old Zionist methods, which appear in the well-known treatise The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This is why this group of Protestants is referred to as 'Christian Zionists' in contemporary political discourse. Along with the Zionist Jews, and out of a desire to conquer the world, they incite war of devastation, examples of which we see all around us."
I guess that means us Evengelical supporters will be a primary target.The above quote was taken from the Iranian TV show Joel R was speaking of.So I guess I'm a "Christian Zionist."
Also- correction-the Freemasons did the identity scans "at community fairs" the article did not actually say "schools."
Jib,
I think we both agree on what salvation is & its restoration of man's fellowship with God.
Where I differ is that I find the Bible says our eternal security is secure "as long as" we are "following" (active) Him and involved in the relationship.
I'm not really interested in "doctrines" but rather only what I see as truth in the Bible.
I fully rely upon the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truths and that about sums it up.
If I hear something other than what I've been led to believe I most certainly consider it. But if you can't tell by now when I latch onto something I research it almost ad nausea.
Just to be honest here- I don't understand why some people can see conditional security and others can't. It's so obvious to me it screams from the pages. It's not even questionable in my mind.
I have no idea how you interpret the 7 Churches in Revelation but it must not be literally.
That was a message pertinent to the "End Times" and our time. It’s obvious if interpreted literally those Christians not following Christ in Spirit & in truth were not saved from the hour of trial to come upon the earth.
I suppose we are soon to find out one way or the other @ the rate things are going on in the Middle East & other end time developments.
150 already!
Just thought I'd pop in and say hi.
With such nice weather I am outside every chance I can get.
Seems like a lot going on...and its so good to see so many great posts!
<><
I have been instructed by Miss Alesia to do a new post so there's a new post.
Post a Comment