God is our refuge and strength, a help in distresses, very readily found.
Therefore will we not fear though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the heart of the seas;
Though the waters thereof roar and foam, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.
There is a river the streams whereof make glad the city of God, the sanctuary of the habitations of the Most High.
God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her at the dawn of the morning.
The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved; he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Jehovah of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our high fortress. Selah.
Come, behold the works of Jehovah, what desolations he hath made in the earth:
He hath made wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariots in the fire.
Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.
Jehovah of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our high fortress. Selah.
Darby Bible
skip to main |
skip to sidebar
My Blog List
Links
- A Christian Thinktank
- Bible Prophecy Today
- Dr. Constable's Bible Study Notes
- Israel, Epicenter Of The World
- Joel C Rosenberg
- Joels' new blog
- Koinonia House Online
- Lambert Dolphin's Library
- Middletown Bible Church
- Olive Tree Ministries
- Persecution.Com
- Study Light Resources
- The Official Ray C Stedman Library
- The Omega Letter
- The True.Origin Archive
Discernment Ministries
154 comments:
Two!
We sure are busy at the cave!
Thank you for taking such good care of us Mr Hyde!
<><
Kathy,
I have to tell you I love reading the posts you write that are not about pre-wrath!
Prior to the last day or so that was the only doctrine I really connected with you.
It really is nice to read your posts on different topics.
I agree...good open discussions are very worthwhile! :)
<><
Nate, my cousin was shocked to hear about this parade. He's going to do some digging and complaining, I'm sure.
I have a question about Revelation 13:4. Here's the passage:
13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”
And they worshiped the dragon. Does this mean that the people will be knowingly worshiping satan? Will they (the people) understand that it is satan which gives the power to the antichrist?
14 and by the signs that it [the second beast] is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.
I wonder if this could be images on our fancy-schmancy HDTVs with a constant image of the antichrist day and night in every room in our homes. Think Big Brother.
Anne,
I don't think they would only because the bible mentions them being deceived thru sorceries. Rev 18:23, Rev 19:20
II Thes. 2:9- "Even he whose coming is due to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceitfulness of unrighteousness in those who perish, (WHY?) because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved thereby.
For this reason, God shall send them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie,
That all who did not believe in the truth but preferred unrighteousness might be damned."
Anne, I guess you posted before I could get mine posted... me slow
Anyway, my comment was a response to your question at 5:57am.
As per your next comment, If electronics don't all get fried prior to that time, I'm sure technology will play into the endtimes. Some will probably even think much of what they see is camera tricks. But if you think about how de-sensitized society is now, it could very well happen soon and many wouldn't so much as bat an eye.
Thanks, Lori. So people will be worshiping satan, not realizing it is satan (they might be aware of who satan is, but are not true followers of Christ) but might even be deluded to think it is God?
love the new scripture for post.
re the worship of antichrist-must be a pretty strong delusion when you think about it. Look at just the phenomenal increase in interest in eschatology now even amongst believers not to mention unbelievers. look at how much a part of the main stream the Left Behind series has become-they were even parodied on the Simpsons (which according to an interview I saw excited Jerry Jenkins no end)
Kathy
I think that limited atonement and predestination (as it has been explained by most-more likely the result of imperfect explanations no doubt) go hand in hand. if only those that God chose before the beginning of time are saved then Christ's death on the cross is not for all and therefore His atoning death is limited.
Anne, just to make something clear... I'm a pre-tribber, but I'll be happy whenever Jesus comes to get me.
When I said "soon," it's only because endtimes events seem to be escalating in intensity.
just a thought re Joel's
perhaps he shut it down until after the conference was over?
Lori, so far I've taken Jim's advice...I'm pan-trib...it will all pan out in the end!
I agree, it seems like it is all coming together, end times events that is.
At this point while I have been pre-trib for many years, I am also pan-trib...if that's possible!
I agree, Anne, there does seem to be so much going on all at the same time.
:)
Thanks Donna. I just put out what's on my heart and what I understand the Scriptures to say. I'm a prewrather for life now though. Do I want to be here doing the tribulation? NO! But I am making preparations just in case. Jesus is our bridegroom and we are His bride. We long for the day when we will be with Him. On her wedding day a bride is not going to show up in her jammies and with rollers in her hair. She is going to prepare beforehand. I read the messages to the seven churches in Revelation. They are all called to overcome. But what? Tribulation is woven all throughout those letters as well as Jesus using the words "I am coming". I am preparing for it. (I'm not trying convert anyone, just putting out there what I understand scripture to be saying.)
Anne,
As far as Antichrist. (Remember you guys, just giving you my perspective on this!) 2 Th. 2:2 speaks of the man of lawlessness being revealed when he sets himself up as God in the temple. I believe that this revealing is for believers...they will understand that he is the beast in Rev. 13. They will know not to worship him as God. With the strong delusion in place it is unbelievers who will not recognize who this man is and will see him as God. If they take the mark, they seal their fate in the lake of fire. Believers will realize he is Satan's man, unbelievers will see him as God. Some may take the mark just so they can buy and sell and survive but not necessarily because they want to worship him as God. Unregenerate man sure likes to think of themselves as the object of love and affection and worship!
I've gone on long enough!
I noticed your comment to me Jib. I'm working on a reply.
Have a great day everyone.
Kathy
Praying for you and the situation in your town Nate!!
Grace
Kathy,
I really liked how you said this:
Jesus is our bridegroom and we are His bride. We long for the day when we will be with Him. On her wedding day a bride is not going to show up in her jammies and with rollers in her hair. She is going to prepare beforehand.
Well put.
Kathy, thanks for the input and I respect your view.
I understand about the worshiping of the antichrist, the man of lawlessnes. But, I understand that the dragon is satan and the people seem to be worshiping the dragon, ie satan. Do you think the unbelievers will know that it is satan they are worshiping?
13:4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast...
Also, from Rev 14 the third angel gives warning to those with ears to hear, I suppose, otherwise who would take the mark of the beast??
14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Do you (all)...(y'all) think this is literal?
Sorry to write and run, but I'm only able to check in and check out again today.
Thanks everyone!
On the discussion on limited atonement;
It is my understanding that if Jesus didn't die for all people, then ones He didn't die for cannot be condemed since they were not offered salvation! And ones He did die for cannot have salvation if all are not offered it. Also it is not biblical as stated in other passages posted.
overcomer;
How does someone "prepare" for 5 1/2 years of hell on earth. I couldn't even stock up that much food ect. I take it that there will be no believers left alive anyway to eat the food. No offence but...???
God Bless!
overcomer;
I also respect your view, it is not entirely correct but I respect your right to be wrong. LOL I am still learning and don't have all the answers, at least until the prophecies happen!
God Bless!
Anne,
(I like your name...so much, we named our daughter Anne...and it's also Anne with an "e"!)
I don't think they realize they are worshiping Satan. 2 Th. 2:10, 11 says that because they (the unbeliever), did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved God will send a deluding influence so they might believe what is FALSE.
We've been discussing election. I just now saw this. Just two verses later in v. 13 Paul says to the Thessalonians: "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation..." You know, if we are around for this time I'm sure glad I've been chosen by God. That means I have a love for the truth and that delusion will not be sent upon me!
As far as Rev. 14. I think we are already raptured when these events occur. (A prewrath timed rapture that is, after the great tribulation is over but before the end of D's 70th Week.) Here in Rev. 14 I believe D's 70th Week is just about over. In verse one Jesus is standing on Mt. Zion. Israel is either saved or soon to be saved and is in protection. The sheep of the "sheep and goat judgment" are still on the earth. Many of the sheep will be relatively new converts. God's wrath has been falling and intensifying. As Antichrist gathers his armies to battle at Armageddon, the pressure to join his ranks will greatly increase. We know there will be people who will not have taken his mark upon the earth because of the sheep from "the sheep and goat judgment" that follows Armageddon. I believe this warning is for those who are fighting to be found faithful at the Lord’s coming at Armageddon. Whoever does take the mark, it doesn't matter when in D's 70th Week they do, they will face God's wrath in the lake of fire for the rest of eternity.
That's my take anyhow.
gt: I am still learning and don't have all the answers!
You remember those ten virgins in Mt. 25 waiting for the bridegroom? I believe Jesus was talking about His coming for us. Five remembered to bring oil and five didn't. He is speaking of preparation. (Not being that bride in jammies and rollers!) If we see the signing of a seven year covenant with Israel, it's time to start collecting up that oil. There will be 3 1/2 years to prepare as the great tribulation, the unprecedented persecution, will not occur until after the AofD. (Remember, this is my perspective!) You know how Matthew 24 says that the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah? Noah gave warning for 120 years. They ignored him. We need to be witnessing now and if we see that we are around when Daniel's 70th week unfolds, I bet our witness and warnings will take on an even greater fervency.
GT - I like what you said about atonement.
Just to clarify my position: I liked how Kathy worded the "jammies & rollers" comment but NOT from a pre-wrath position.
Why are we studying eschatology? To know what is coming & to be prepared. For we "the Church" will NOT have Jesus' return be like a "thief in the night" (except for not knowing the exact time), we will know the signs & be looking up. IMO
Jammies and rollers, that is kind of cute, isn't it? (Except who wears rollers anymore?!)
Hi Nate,
I was wondering if you (or anyone else here) had heard if other similar Muslim groups here in the US were also planning 'celebrations' or parades. I'd be interested to know if this is an isolated case. It seems funny that from the reporting done on the group, they haven't been very friendly or interested in mixing with the surrounding neighbors up to this point. What's changed and why?
Blessings,
Jen
Shalom, all!
Jesus is our bridegroom and we are His bride. We long for the day when we will be with Him. On her wedding day a bride is not going to show up in her jammies and with rollers in her hair.
Sooo... Right now, are we like the guy waiting downstairs with the corsage making small talk with the dad?
<><
GT, Shalom! You wrote:
How does someone "prepare" for 5 1/2 years of hell on earth. I couldn't even stock up that much food ect. I take it that there will be no believers left alive anyway to eat the food.
(Did you mean, "3 1/2 years"?) You prepare by sharing. There will be untold numbers of farmers who may be willing to exchange food for help. You may not be able to buy or sell, but you can trade. The farmers I know are all familiar with barter and sharing through labor. I can see one big problem, though. Seed.
Farmers wouldn't be able to buy new seed. I don't know if you realize this, but in North America most grains like corn and wheat are hybrids, which are designed to be useful for one generation. Trying to plant the seeds from a hybrid crop will result in stunted growth or no growth the next year. It's how the seed companies in the US keep the farmers coming back year after year. The farmers do so because they know they should make up the difference between the cost of the seed and the cost of growing their own seed by the size of the harvest. Additionally, the great majority of hybrids on the market today are not bred for size or yield but for resistance to herbicides. You can even buy hybrids resistant to specific herbicides (such as Round-Up).
Because of modern hybridization techniques, there is a critical lack of genetic diversity in our food supply. To combat this, there are a growing number of "heritage" or "heirloom" seed providers. These are groups that are trying to preserve the "old" plants (tomatoes come to mind, but really all plants) that were brought over to America from the old countries. These seed suppliers are also being supported by the big seed companies, who are trying to breed genetic diversity back into the seed crop. These heirloom seed providers guarantee that their products are not hybrids, and that you can take the seeds from one year's crop and grow the next year's crop with no problems.
My favorite provider is Seed Savers Exchange, based near Decorah, Iowa. At one time, they would give members the seeds for free, conditioned only on the promise that the members would send the resulting seeds back, to increase the stocks. I don't believe that's the case anymore. Anyone can buy from the webpage, but there are about a thousand additional varieties not shown on the webpage that are available to the members only. For Canadians, an equivalent group is Seeds of Diversity. Note that for various biological safety reasons, seeds cannot be shipped outside their country of origin unless you want to go through a h*ll of a lot of paperwork. If you want to know why, ask someone from Georgia about kudzu.
I haven't found any sites that sold wheat seed (except for buckwheat), but then I didn't do a whole lot of research. My point was that farmers can farm only when they have seeds to plant and grow. If you live in a rural area, you may want to investigate forming a partnership with a local farmer, esp. one that wants to move to organic farming. You may be able to help supply the organic seed needed in exchange for shelter in a a coming crisis.
<><
Shalom, all!
Sometimes I hate how my mind works. No sooner had I finished sending off that last message than my mind stared going down the roads of possibilities. It's possible that Christian communities may be able to survive on communal farms -- Kibbutzim. The problem then becomes safety and protection. By the '30s the Jewish settlers had learned how to set up a Kibbutzim quickly, and it involved two things: a stockade surrounding the settlement (think of the forts in the old westerns) and a watchtower. Guards were required and were set up to watch the fields at night to keep the Arabs from either stealing the produce or setting fire to it.
My question is how possible it would be to set something like this up; or would the "city-fellers" have to hide so neighbors wouldn't know they were hiding Christians?
<><
overcomer;
Thanks for the reply. In the days of Noah passage in Mat 24, the warning is about His coming in judgement and how the flood came and took them all away, not how Noah gave warning for 120 years;
Mat 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
Mat 24:39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
In fact it says that they knew nothing about what would happen. The warning is in 24:42.
Anyway, what preparations can be made for hell on earth?? Our only preparations is being in Christ and trusting Him as in all times.
God Bless!
jim;
Thanks for the reply. I just saw a history channel program on seed, and saw the part on hybrids not being able to be reused. Unfortunatly most of the farmers in my area use hybrid because of better yield.
Concerning the 5 1/2 years; pre-wrath has a rapture after the mid point of the tribulation, at about halfway thru the second 3 1/2 yrs, or around 5 1/2 yrs or so into the trib.
God Bless!
mac;
From your post on "Darwin's Kool-aid drinkers", do you know if there is a u-tube clip of that scene with Dawkins. I would love to see that!! Thanks for the post.
overcomer; "We need to be witnessing now and if we see that we are around when Daniel's 70th week unfolds, I bet our witness and warnings will take on an even greater fervency."
It would also be a witness (and a strong one too!!) if millions of people disappeared from the earth in the twinkling of a eye! However, I fear in either case, strong delusion will blind people to the truth.
God Bless!!
gt: I agree 100% with your statement that Mt. 24 is about His coming in judgment. I also view it as His coming for us too. If Mt. 24 is a rapture passage it would go like this:
Tribulation or affliction against the elect/Second Coming-rapture-deliverance/Judgment or God's wrath against unbelievers.
Look at how 2 Th. 2:6-8, a near/far prophetic passage, falls right in line with that picture:
"For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know god and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
I don't want to get on Donna's bad side =) so I'm going to thank you for this gracious discussion we've been having and will let other topics now resume.
A blessed Lord's day tomorrow to you and everyone,
Kathy
I just clicked on briefly and read kathy's post about not wanting to get on my bad side.
That makes me feel kind of crummy.
Please don't make that be a reason to say or not say something!
Kathy, if you are bringing up the pre-wrath theory up over and over again...well....no offense, but it does get kind of old after a while.
But please don't feel that you would get on my bad side...and even if you did get on my bad side, so what! :)
That was a tease Donna. Please don't feel crummy. I'm so sorry if I made you feel that way. It wasn't my intention at all. That was just a fun way of telling you that I like you!
I'm going to give my eschatological view a rest. I was just enjoying a discussion with gt.
GT, I don't know if there is a clip of that yet. But I bet there will be one eventually. It wouldn't be the first time Dawkins turned a bright shade of pink trying to answer a question.
Dawkins 11 second pause
Thank you Kathy!!!
I love your photos, I think you're very talented. I go there frequently to see if you have anything new.
:-)
Kathy,
Oops, I just posted that in the wrong place - wasn't paying attention to where your comment came from.
overcomer;
"gt: I agree 100% with your statement that Mt. 24 is about His coming in judgment. I also view it as His coming for us too."
You view this as His coming for us too, this is where we differ. I cannot reconcile this passage:
Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
With Jesus addressing anyone but the Jews. The reference has to be there for a reason. The point of the whole thing is He is not addressing the Church.
mac; Thanks for that other clip, I will be waiting for clips of Dawkins with Ben Stein. They will probably show up after the movie goes to DVD.
God Bless!
Hi GT,
I can't wait to see the Ben Stein movie, it comes out on 4/18, I believe.
I urge everyone to go see it opening weekend so it gets recognition.
I've actually paid for movies on opening weekend to help sales. Then didn't have anyone to go with me, so I didn't actually see the movie - but this one, I'm seeing, even if I have to sit there by myself.
Yeah, that made me sound like a pathetic loser! :(
Thanks for visiting Shutterblog Alesia and for your kind words. I normally have about 5-7 hits a day on that blog. Something really weird happened between yesterday and today. I had close to 100 hits.
Thanks again for the discussion gt.
This Perry Stone video is VERY INTERESTING!.
This guy finds more hidden themes, messages, types, codes etc., in the bible than any other bible prophecy scholar I know of. I knew that the rapture of the Church was modeled after a Jewish wedding, but Perry found other elements of a Jewish wedding in support of the rapture that are really amazing, some of it he acknowkeges just figuring out. There's some other interesting info in this video as well. It's definitely worth watching.
The good part starts at 6 minutes and 55 seconds into the video.
There is a new posting from Joel on his site.
<><
Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. With Jesus addressing anyone but the Jews. The reference has to be there for a reason. The point of the whole thing is He is not addressing the Church.
GT, Renald Showers' “Maranatha, Our Lord Come”, in chapter nine, thoroughly analyses Matt 24 and delves into the “Elect” issue making a strong case for this being Israel. Personally, I think his conclusions are iron clad.
He also goes into 2 Thess, the famous Last Trumpet and the cosmic sign passages etc. If you haven’t read the book yet I suggest you do. Showers leaves no stone unturned.
I would definitely go to the movies with you if I lived closer, Alesia. :)
I agree with GT, MAC and so many others...the references Jesus makes in the Olivet Discourse definitely makes it sound as if he is speaking to the Jews.
Jim,
Thank-you for taking the time to post long, detailed responses to my posts. They contained a lot of good information.
After reading all the comments you posted and the articles you posted links to in regards to our discussion of the Marian Apparition at Fatima and the connection between the Roman Catholic Church and Islam, I came to the conclusion that you actually proved some of what I said in my postings. You showed a connection between the Catholic Church and Islam, which was the main point of my original comment.
Let me back up for a minute. Part of my original post that talked about this connection was taken from some comments posted by a guy who called himself Joe Gringo. He had posted his comments on the Joel’s Trumpet blog sight. Joe said he is a Roman Catholic, so I assume that he knew what he was talking about when he said that Mary (Our Lady of Fatima) was a connection between Islam and Roman Catholicism.
Here is an excerpt from his comments:
“Mary, then, is for the Muslims the true ‘Sayyida, or Lady. The only possible serious rival to her in their creed would be Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed himself. However, after the death of Fatima, Mohammed wrote: “Thou shalt be the most blessed of all the women in Paradise, after Mary.”
In a variant of the text, Fatima is made to say, “I surpass all the women, except Mary.”
This brings us to our second point, namely, why the Blessed Mother, in this twentieth century (1950), should have revealed herself in the insignificant little village of Fatima, so that to all future generations she would be known as “Our Lady of Fatima.”
Nothing ever happens out of heaven except with a finesse of all details. I believe that the Blessed Virgin chose to be known as “Our Lady of Fatima” as a pledge and a sign of hope to the Muslim people, and as an assurance that they, who show her so much respect, will one day accept her Divine Son, too.”
“Missionaries in the future will increasingly see that their apostolate among the Muslims will be successful in the measure that they preach Our Lady of Fatima. Because the Muslims have a devotion to Mary, our missionaries should be satisfied merely to expand and to develop that devotion with the full realization that Our Blessed Lady will carry the Moslems the rest of the way to her Divine Son.”
End Quote
So…it looks like Joe Gringo sees Our Lady of Fatima, or Mary connecting Roman Catholicism and Islam, or, if you prefer, connecting Muslims to Roman Catholicism. Joe thinks that many Muslims are going to convert to Catholicism because of this connection.
My thoughts when I originally read Joe’s comments were that the Mary connection is not going to lead anyone to Christ, or at least to true “salvation.”
Then I read the “Why do Muslims Convert to Christianity?” article that you posted a link to. In the article, it talks about the results of a recent survey taken of 750 Muslims who converted to Christianity between 1991 and 2007. In the survey, they were asked to answer the question “So what attracts Muslims to follow Jesus?” Here were the top five answers:
1) The lifestyle of Christians. Former Muslims cited the love that Christians exhibited in their relationships with non-Christians and their treatment of women as equals.
2) The power of God in answered prayers and healing. Experiences of God's supernatural work—especially important to folk Muslims who have a characteristic concern for power and blessings—increased after their conversions, according to the survey. Often dreams about Jesus were reported.
3) Dissatisfaction with the type of Islam they had experienced. Many expressed dissatisfaction with the Qur'an, emphasizing God's punishment over his love. Others cited Islamic militancy and the failure of Islamic law to transform society.
4) The spiritual truth in the Bible. Muslims are generally taught that the Torah, Psalms, and the Gospels are from God, but that they became corrupted. These Christian converts said, however, that the truth of God found in Scripture became compelling for them and key to their understanding of God's character.
5) Biblical teachings about the love of God. In the Qur'an, God's love is conditional, but God's love for all people was especially eye-opening for Muslims. These converts were moved by the love expressed through the life and teachings of Jesus. The next step for many Muslims was to become part of a fellowship of loving Christians.
End Quote
Not surprisingly, Mary was not mentioned once in those top five reasons.
You said the following:
“FWIW, one reason it's taken me so long to write this message (I started at 5:30, folks) was that I was researching Catholic end-time prophecies, trying to confirm something I thought I read years ago: that Mary the Mother of G_D will play a very important role in the conversion of Muslims to Christianity in the end-times. In fact, I found quite a few Catholic saints said this same thing in different ways. The reverence for Mary in Islam is in fact helping pave the way for Muslims to convert to Christianity. It is illegal in many Islamic countries to talk about Jesus. It is NOT illegal to talk about Mary. Catholic Christians are able to talk to Muslims about Mary, the Mother of Isa (Jesus), and explain about how we as Christians believe she is the Mother of G_D.”
End Quote
These Catholic prophecies you talk about that were made by a few Catholic saints indicate that they thought that the reverence for Mary in Islam would help convert Muslims to Christianity. This seems to indicate a “connection” between Catholicism and Islam.
I have two problems with this scenario:
1) I personally don’t believe that any Marian Apparition (real or imagined), or dream of Mary or reverence for Mary has ever or will ever bring someone to Christ. I don’t see God ever using this as a method to bring people to Him. Christ himself is the way, period. All the emphasis is on Him and not shared with anyone else, even his mother. I have read about Muslims having dreams of Jesus and being converted that way, but never of anyone having dreams of Mary or the Saints and becoming a Christian (I am talking about a true believer here, not just someone who thinks they have found religion).
I believe that Mary, the Old Testament prophets, the Apostles and “the Saints” were just normal people who were used by God to do extraordinary things. I believe they are not to be put up on any pedestals or revered as anything more than ordinary people whom God did miraculous things through. The glory is God’s not Man’s. The best of our work is as filthy rags to Him.
That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t follow the great example that these people have set, but Christ is the best example to follow. The Apostles tried their best to emulate Christ, but everyone else’s best efforts at righteousness pale in comparison to Him.
2) Jim, as you are a Roman Catholic, I presume you are an amillennialist. Let’s do something crazy for a moment and take a pre-millennial, pre-trib rapture view of things.
Let’s say the rapture occurs and the true church is taken to heaven. There is a big disaster, maybe in conjunction with the Gog and Magog Battle that helps conceal the rapture. Millions are killed or missing (many of them Muslims). Who is left on earth? Well obviously the non-believers who are left behind and survive the disaster(s). The earth will be in chaos and looking for someone or something to put it back together.
I would venture to say that there will be a large percentage of the Catholic Church and Protestant Churches left behind. All Muslims, Hindus and non- Messianic Jews will also be left here on earth. How many “true” Christians, (I would say born again Christians, but I know you dislike that phrase even though Jesus himself said, “You must be born again.”) do you think there really are in the Catholic Church and most Protestant Churches? I would suggest that it is less than 20% or 30% at most. This is probably being generous.
So…there are going to be a lot of “religious” people left behind and looking for answers, as well as many non-religious people suddenly looking for religion in a serious way. The difference I see between most Protestant Churches and the Catholic Church is that the Catholic Church is, for the most part, under one hierarchy. I suspect that much of the papacy will still be intact after the rapture. There will be a lot of people flocking to the Catholic Church.
That being said, the good elements of the various churches are not going to be the ones that are left behind. It will be the pretenders.
Now let’s discuss this Mary connection between Islam and Catholicism. The Bible suggests there will be one world religion under the Antichrist during the last days. With the pesky true believers removed, what is to stop these two religions from merging or at least cooperating fully with one another? If most of the radical elements of Islam get removed during the Battle of Gog and Magog, the rest will be more than happy to merge with the Roman Catholic Church.
That brings me to the next part of my post.
You posted this excerpt from an article about the possibility of building a Catholic Church in Saudi Arabia:
Riyadh: March 29, 2008.No churches should be permitted in Saudi Arabia, unless Pope Benedict XVI recognised the prophet Mohammed, according to a Middle East expert. Anwar Ashiqi, president of the Saudi centre for Middle East strategic studies, endorsed this view in an interview on the site of Arab satellite TV network, al-Arabiya on Thursday. "It would be possible to launch official negotiations to construct a church in Saudi Arabia only after the Pope and all the Christian churches recognise the prophet Mohammed."
"If they don`t recognise him as a prophet, how can we have a church in the Saudi kingdom?"
End Quote
You think that the pope won’t eventually recognize Mohammad as a prophet? I’ll take that bet. It is only a matter of time.
Do you remember this?
The Pope Kissing The Qu'ran
Here are some excerpts from the article linked to above:
“has this man who represents, in fact is the "infallible" voice of, the Roman Catholic Church not remember what the Qu'ran has to say about Jesus and the Triunity of God?”
"O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit [sic.] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is better for you! - Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son...The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah."
Of Jesus Christ the Qu'ran also states:
"And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! The folk laugh out, and say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise not the objection save for argument. Nay! but they are a contentious folk. He is nothing but a slave on whom we bestowed favor, and we made him a pattern for the Children of Israel. And had we willed it we would have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth".
Regarding Christ's death on the Cross, the Qu'ran says:
"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah. But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. ... And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness against them (Christians)." (Koran, 4:156-159)
The Qu'ran even has Jesus Himself saying:
"Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One."
Do you recall the following as well?
Pope John Paul II Receives The Mark of "Aarti", A Prayer To The Hindu Goddess Durga
This is a photo of the pope receiving the mark of a prayer "aarti" to the Hindu female goddess Durga by a professing Christian Hindu woman. By the time this photo was taken, however, the pope had already been involved in a number of pagan rituals on his trip to India in 1986, including taking the mark of Shiva. Here is the documented quote: "Still at Madras on February 5, 1986, 'A sugarcane, fashioned into the form of a cross, signifying a Hindu offering to a carnal god, was brought into the presence of the Pope. A little later, during the offertory procession, a coconut was carried to the altar, a typical Hindu offering, which they offer to their idols. Finally, a man placed sacred ashes on his forehead. IT WAS NOT A MATTER OF TILAC BUT OF SACRED ASHES OR VIBHUTI. (*164) THREE DAYS EARLIER, ON FEBRUARY 2, HE HAD RECEIVED ON HIS FOREHEAD THE TILAC OR TIKA, THE RED POWDERY PASTE OF THE HINDUS, THE SIGN OF THE ADORERS OF SHIVA. (*165) *164 ‘Msgr.’ Lefebvre, op. cit. p.177. *165 La Croix of February 6, and 'I' Express' of February 7/13, 1986, with photo." The Catholic objections to this photo, and their deceptive tactics to try to hide what the pope did on the web, have unearthed even further evidence of the interfaith dabbling with demons by the papacy.
End Quote
Ephesians 5:11 (King James Version)
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
It looks like the Catholic Church is edging ever closer to becoming a “Universal” Church. If one believes in the rapture that would sure push things along.
You said the following:
“(FWIW, these same saints also all predict that Islam will conquer and destroy Rome. Remember, you read it here first.)”
End Quote
This is very interesting! Is this the Beast turning on the Whore of Babylon partway through the Tribulation Period?
Revelation 17:16-18 (English Standard Version)
16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth."
I can’t help but draw some parallels between the saints’ prediction of a future conquest of Rome by Islam and what happened to Constantinople in 1453 at the hands of Islam (the Ottomans AKA the Turks). Interestingly, both Rome and Constantinople (now Istanbul) sit on 7 hills. Constantinople was the East Leg of the Roman Empire (some would say the east leg of the two legged statue in Daniel) and was Greek Orthodox. The differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church are negligible to an outsider like me.
I recently read the book “Constantinople: The Last Great Siege 1453.” It was a very enlightening. What I found particularly interesting was that the inhabitants of Constantinople thought that the end of the world had come and that Mehmet, the leader of the Ottomans was the Antichrist. The besieged people kept calling out to Mary to save them from the Turks and parading around holy relics for protection instead of praying to God for salvation. The following are some examples from the book demonstrating this:
“Thus one could see throughout the city all the people and the women who came miraculous procession to the churches of God with tears, praising and giving thanks to God and to the most pure Mother of God.”
“The more hopeful remembered a set of counter-prophecies: that they city was personally shielded by Mary, Mother of God, and could never be taken because it contained the relics of the True Cross; and that even if the enemy succeeded in entering the city they could only proceed as far as the column of Constantine the Great before an angel would descend from heaven with a sword and put them to flight.”
“The next day a decision was taken, perhaps at the instigation of Constantine, to lift the spirits of the people by making another direct appeal to the Virgin. Huge belief was placed in the supernatural powers of the Mother of God. Here most holy icon, the Hodegetria, ‘the one who shows the way’, was a talisman credited with miraculous powers. It was believed to have been painted by St Luke the Evangelist, and had an ancient and honourable role in successful defenses of the city. It had been processed along the ramparts during the Avar siege of 626. Again in 718 the Hodegetria was credited with saving Constantinople from the Arabs.
Accordingly a huge crowd gathered on the morning of 25 May at the icon’s shrine, the church of St Saviour in Chora near the city walls, to seek protection from the Virgin. The Hodegetria, mounted on a wooden pallet, was lifted onto the shoulders of a team of men drawn from the confraternity of the icon, and a penitent procession set off down the steep, narrow streets in traditional order: in front a cross-bearer; behind, the black robed priests swinging their censers, then the laity, men, women, and children probably walking barefoot. Cantors led the people in holy song. The haunting quartertones of the hymns, the lamentations of the people, the clouds of incense and the traditional prayers to the protecting Virgin – all rose in the morning air. Over and over the citizens repeated their powerful cry for psychic protection: ‘Do thou save thy city, as thou knowest and willest. We put thee forward as our arms, our rampart, our shield, or general: do fight for they people.’ The exact route for these processions was said to be dictated by a force emanating form the icon itself, like the tug of a diving rod.
In this charged atmosphere of fear and devotion, what followed was utterly devastating. The icon suddenly and inexplicably slipped from the hands of the bearers ‘without any reason or visible force and fell on the ground’. Horror-stricken, people rushed forward with wild shouts to restore the Virgin to her stand, but the icon seemed to have become fastened to the earth as if weighted with lead. It was impossible to lift. For a considerable time, the priests and bearers struggled, with shouts and prayers, to wrestle the miraculous image from the mud. Eventually it was raised again but everyone was struck with fear at this ill-omened event.”
End Quote
Reading this account, I can’t help but be reminded of this passage in Revelation:
Revelation 9:20 (English Standard Version)
20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk,
Now whether this passage in Revelation is past or present is open for debate.
God Bless,
Harold
Grumpy,
Thanks so much for the Perry Stone link. It is very interesting. He is an awesome Bible teacher.
Blessings! (Mary)
Wow, Harold, that was quite a post!
Funny, I had just read for the first time (that I remember) the other day about Istanbul/Constatinople also being a city of 7 hills, like Rome.
Harold, EXCELLENT POST!
There is mountains of evidence (seven actually - LOL) proving that the Roman Catholic Church plays a role in end-time events, and a very evil role at that.
A study of the RCC historically, and in contemporary times, easily proves it. It's not a coincidence why the bible warns repeatedly not to allow yourself to be deceived.
just read Joel's latest post and I agree we need to be in some serious prayer over the area. As he stated, we may not even with prayer be able to stop the war that is coming, but we can be prepared to show the love of Christ.
we can also be prepared if either Is 17 or Ezekiel 38/39 are fulfilled in the near future to be a source of answers to others.
and with my last post-reread the Psalm that is posted in context or with Joel's newest post. They are quite powerful together.
April is Organ Donation awareness month
the link has some figures about the need and the number of folks who die on a daily basis waiting for a kidney.
the article also notes that it has only been within the last 20 years that organ transplantation has really been a viable field of medicine. we did have some drugs pre cyclosporine but the rejection rates were still quite high so the transplants had to match nearly perfectly. with the advent of cyclosporine the matches can be much less than ideal and still work for many years.
a very interesting website
Laodicean Church present and accounted for
a sadder website-it seems my alma mater is sliding down a slippery slope whether they think so or not.
CedarvilleSituation
Grumpy,
Thanks for posting the Perry Stone video. I had to go to a relative's home today to watch it since I'm still dialup. But I really enjoyed it. My in-laws watched it with me and enjoyed it.
One of the things I appreciated was him mentioning that our interpretation cannot be based upon just one scripture, that we need at least 3. I've always believed that.
It was really cool to learn the tradition behind the Jewish wedding and it's tie to the rapture.
I'm going to be keeping my eye open for Perry Stone teachings when I can get to a place with DSL.
bless ya
lori
Jib, I heard a comedian once say that they used to have organ donation noted on their license. They got into a fender bender and the paramedics chased him down to try to take his organs. Well, his delivery was much better than mine, I'm not known for my joke telling.
Harold, Shalom. As usual, the length of your posts makes any sort of coherent rebuttal that won't drag loading this blog down to a snails pace difficult if not impossible. That plus the fact that I have my daughters this weekend means I won't be making a full reply right now.
In truth I couldn't make a full reply because I can't verify your sources, particularly in regards to "Pope John Paul II Receives The Mark of "Aarti", A Prayer To The Hindu Goddess Durga." The link is to a photo that I can tell is from an anti-Catholic web site, that I know in the past has misinterpreted, mis-stated, and misrepresented Catholic teachings in the past. Until you can tell me where the article you're quoting from is located, I can't begin to reply.
As for some of your other points, here's the Reader's Digest response:
"The Pope Kissing the Qu'ran" This is a situation where either His Holiness was not aware of how it would be interpreted or WAS aware and chose the lesser of two evils. This occurred during a state visit from religious representatives from Iraq. (Iran? Can't remember now and don't have the time to look it up, so I'm just going with Iraq.) These religious representatives included the heads of the Christian churches in Iraq and two of the highest Inmans in that country.
Whenever the Pope is presented with a gift on a state occasion, protocol requires that he kiss it. It's just what is done, a tradition that dates back millenia. When His Holiness comes to America next week, it's a sure bet that he's going to be presented with some gift or another, and he will kiss it before handing it to an aid. At the audience in question, the Pope had also been presented with gifts from the Christian representatives. (I believe it was an illustrated Bible written in Syriac -- again, I don't have time to confirm this.) The Pope, per protocol, kissed these gifts.
Now, here's where either His Holiness was not aware of how this would look and was simply following protocol; or he did know and chose the lesser of two evils. If he did NOT kiss the gift (the Koran), it would have been a diplomatic insult, a sign that the gift was rejected even if he simply handed it to an aid without kissing it. It could have been interpreted as not just an insult to all the people of Iraq, but an insult to Islam, and as something that might endanger all Christians living in Islamic countries. Since protocol required that he kiss it, he kissed it. Afterwards, it was the Islamic media that made this into an act of submission by the Pope, without mentioning protocol or the fact that the other gifts were also kissed.
The biggest "thing" I have with people saying there is a "connection" between Catholicism and Islam is that "connection" is portrayed as "collusion." You wrote, You think that the pope won’t eventually recognize Mohammad as a prophet? I’ll take that bet. It is only a matter of time. Fine. Name your bet. I'll match it. I can do this because I know, I know, that it will never happen. It has been a point of dogma among ALL Christians that direct revelation of G_D's truths ended with the death of the last apostle, that there could be no further revealed truths. When Muslim's speak of Muhammad as a prophet, they also give him the title of "Allah's Apostle." To recognize Muhammad as a prophet would also mean recognizing him as someone co-equal with James, John, Luke, Peter, and all the other Apostles of Christ. It would mean recognizing the "truths" reveal to Muhammad as being equal to the ones revealed to the Apostles of Christ. Seeing as how the majority of these messages of Islam are in direct contradiction to Christianity and in fact deny the central tenets of Christianity, I can say with no fear of contradiction that there is a greater chance of the Southern Baptist Convention and the Wisconsin Synod of the Lutheran Church in America reaching full communion with the Roman Catholic Church than there is of the RCC and Islam joining together.
The Pope, by himself, cannot do such a thing. The College of Cardinals, acting in union with all the bishops of the world, could not do such a thing. To join with Islam would mean denying the divinity of Christ, making a mockery of His Sacrifice. So no, this will not happen.
And that's what has me worried.
According to the Constitution of the Church, the election of the Pope can only take place in Rome at the Sistine Chapel. This was done to prevent renegade factions from holding their own election of an anti-pope. However, there exists no procedure for changing the location of the election in case of war or other disaster. So this leaves the Church in a quandary: suppose a nuclear device is detonated in St. Peter's Square. Along with several million Romans, Italians, and tourists, both the Pope and the Sistine Chapel are destroyed. Since only the Pope can give final approval to any changes in the Constitution (after it's been approved by countless other committees), we have a case where there is no pope and another one cannot be elected.
No one knows what would happen in such a situation, but it's very possible that there would be a split in the Church, with two (or more) factions electing popes. All but one of these, who is chosen by G_D, would be anti-popes. I don't know how to discern the true pope, but I know for a fact that any of these "popes" who would work towards unification with Islam would by definition be an anti-pope.
Gotta go drive my girls home. We'll talk later.
<><
grumpy;
Good video from Perry Stone. I can't say I buy all that he says about Jewish weddings applying to the rapture though. Zola Levett used to teach on this alot, in fact that is where I first heard of any connection between the two. I do believe we as westerners need a lot of "learnin" on middle eastern culture to understand some of the Bibles teaching though. Thanks for the link.
overcomer;
You are welcome!
mac;
Thanks for the reference to the Renald Showers book, I have seen his work quoted before and will look into it.
Concerning Mat 24+25 I ran across this at Gracethrufaith:
A careful reading of the various references to time shows that everything from Matt. 24:29 on happens after the Great Tribulation has ended. Verse 30 begins with "at that time" referring to verse 29, verse 36 begins with "no one knows about that day or hour, referring to verse 29, and verse 37 indicates that the Lord was talking specifically about the day of his coming, something that happens after the Great Tribulation has ended.
Then Matt 25:1 begins with "at that time", again referencing Matt. 24:29 and showing that the parable of the 10 virgins is meant to describe events that follow the Great Tribulation and occur at the time of the 2nd Coming. When the bridegroom shows up at midnight, it means the 2nd Coming has already occurred, too late for a pre, mid, post or any other rapture to take place.
The parable of the 10 virgins symbolizes the disposition of tribulation survivors some of whom will have kept the faith and be welcomed into the Kingdom when the Lord returns, while others who will have fallen away will be excluded. Remember, there's no guarantee of eternal security for Tribulation believers. They'll be responsible for keeping themselves faithful. (Rev. 14:12)
Now I either missed this before when I read Mat 24 or... this is new to me! It makes so much sense when viewed in light of the qualifing statement "at that time". So any arguments about the 10 virgins being the church are not valid. Anyway the church is the bride not the bridesmaids! Also, Jesus says “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like..."
signifing a teaching of how the kingdom will be at His return at the end of the trib. Anyone have input on this?
God Bless!
U.S. supervising training of elite PA unit in Jordan
Syria on Alert 'Because Hizbullah Revenge Attack is Near'
Hezbollah No. 2: IDF drills are preparation for war on Lebanon
U.S., Israel to pressure N.Korea on nuclear deals with Iran
U.S. evangelist, Hagee pledges $6 million in contributions to Israel
Bibi: Christian Zionists our top friends
Article dated today. Largest-ever effort to persuade Israeli expatriates - to return home
Something is in the works. There are too many articles like the ones below in just the last two weeks alone..
Russia ‘Alarmed’ As US Readies April Nuclear Attack On Iran
War With Iran
Iran Spying on Israel from Syria
Damascus Raises War Alarm
Will America Wipe Out Iran's Nuclear Installations?
Iran, Syria and Lebanon on Military Alert over US Gulf Movements
Israel Prepares for Iran, Syria Missile War
Saudi Arabia Braces for Nuclear War
In Matthew 24 Jesus is describing "The End." That's what the disciples asked him to describe.
I'm quite confident that what Jesus describes during this whole discourse was not in chronilogical order.
But vs 36 says: "But concerning that day and that hour, no man knows, not even the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.
Just as in the days of NOah, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
For as the people before the flood were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark,
And they knew nothing until the flood came and carried them all away; such will be the coming of the Son of man.
Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken away and the other left.
Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Be alert, therefore, for you do not know at what hour your Lord will come."
This clearly indicates that the body of Christ (those clearly protected as in the days of Noah) is snatched away during a time not proceeded by calamity. People are described as going about their normal business.
If things were as they were described in the beginning of that same chapter, people would be expecting something to happen.
I think this is why so many are deceived, perhaps our disappearance will be blamed on some other phenom.
Jim, the last thing I really want to do is start ranting and raving about the RCC (again).....but the term...His "Holiness"?
Wow, that is scarey!
The pope, saints, nuns, brothers, priests in the rcc or any other church are no more holy than anyone else.
Our "righteousness" are as filthy rags!
We are sanctified by Him and Him alone!
Of course this is my opinion...but I do think it is correct biblically!
Say, is anyone else planning on staying up to watch the Epicenter08 conference live? It's going to start on April 10 at 1AM Central Time.
Muslims Coming to Christ by Kerby Anderson
It is amazing how many Muslims are coming to Christ. As I have been doing radio interviews on my new book, A Biblical Point of View on Islam, I have been talking about these conversions and hear some encouraging stories.
But I am not the only person who is noticing the increasing number of conversions. Joel Rosenberg in his book Epicenter describes some amazing stories of Muslims converting to Christianity. For example, in Algeria more than 80,000 Muslims have committed their lives to Christ in a last few years. While this is considered the birthplace of Augustine, it is hardly a Christian country today. In fact, the Muslim clerics in this country have actually banned evangelism.
There are newspaper articles in Morocco that worry that perhaps as many as 40,000 Muslims have converted to Christianity in the last few years. Even if the estimated figure of 25,000 conversions is more accurate, you can easily see that we are witnessing quite a conversion to Christianity even in Muslim countries in the Middle East.
There is equally encouraging news from Europe. Islam Watch reports that about two million ethnic Muslims in Russia have converted to Christianity just in the last year. Ten thousand French Muslims have converted, as have 35,000 Turkish Muslims.
The reason for this is simple. Muslims desire to know God. In my book, I talk about a study done at an evangelical seminary. They asked hundreds of former Muslims why they converted to Christianity. The number one reason is that they wanted a personal relationship with God. Allah (the god of Islam) is distant and transcendent. You cannot know him personally.
By contrast, the God of Christianity is personal and knowable. We can call God “our father who art in heaven.” We can experience God’s love. Perhaps the most famous verse in the New Testament reminds us: “God so loved the world that He gave His only Son.” When we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord we can know God personally and be saved.
So it is important that when we talk to our Muslim friends to talk about the love of God. I’m Kerby Anderson, and that’s my point of view.
Distributed by www.ChristianWorldviewNetwork.com
You are correct biblically Donna.
Romans 3:10: "There is none righteous, not even one..."
Donna, Shalom!
"His Holiness" is a traditional title. You could make the same argument about "His Supreme Majesty Emperor Norton I". Biblically, the only supreme majesty belongs to Our Lord G_D.
It's a title based in royalty. It comes from a time when men ruled by the "Divine Rights of Kings." These men needed to be reminded that nations as well as people are subject to the laws of G_D. "His Excellency" is the traditional title used by bishops. To match the authority of royals, a title was needed to convey that unique authority of one that has been chosen by the Holy Spirit to lead His people. As a result, all Patriarchs (the Pope is the Patriarch of the Latin Church) carry the title "His Holiness." (The lone exception, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, has the title "His All Holiness.")
<><
Our sanctification is effected by God.
1 Th. 5:23: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
gt, Mac, Donna, I've been trying to logically think through Mt. 24. The disciples did not ask Jesus about the sign of His coming and the end of the age as unbelieving Jews but as believers. As believers, they will be raptured. Shouldn't Jesus have said to them in His answer, "You don't need to worry about what is going to happen because you won't be here but for those left behind, this and this and this will happen." He kept addressing them as "you" all throughout the discourse as if they were going to be there.
I am thinking about Jesus comment about praying that your flight not be on the Sabbath. For me, there is too much other overwhelming evidence that this one statement doesn't keep this from being a rapture passage, at least for me anyway.
Going the way of Rome
The way I see it the disciples asked about end times as believing Jews. They weren’t aware of the concept of the Church at that time and their focus was on the restoration of Israel. They didn’t even fully understand that Christ had to die and resurrect Himself. After the resurrection, on the way to Emmaus, Jesus had to pore over the scriptures to explain to the two disciples why He had to die and so on, as foretold in the scriptures.
Luk 24:20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened…
Luk 24:25 - And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"
I'm back, did you miss me?
I understand Matt 24 to be directed toward the Jews. His diciples wanted to know when Israel's long promised "earthly "kingdom was going to be established.
Remember they thought that Jesus was going to set it up here and now and he said he didn't come this 1st time to do that.
So they were asking him when is he coming back the 2nd time @ the end of the age(and the signs of those times)to set up his earthly Kingdom?
Then He goes on to stress the false Christs, wars, killings, etc..
Then he goes on to tell them when to flee Israel @ the abomination of desolation.(24:15)
(24:22) The "elect"-is Israel
Then he tells them "after the tribulation" the signs of the moon & starts and then "the Son of Man" will appear.(12:29)
(In reference to Israel)
Isaiah 11:12
He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather togeather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Jim,
I only have one question for you.
Do you think that Jesus would kiss the Quran or anything (except us) for that matter?
Make that two questions.
Would Jesus be "politically correct" as well?
We really have to look for truth as Joel Rosenburg would say "Through the lens of the Bible."
We know God does not change or modify his personality.
So if the Pope has some "in" with our Creator then I would expect him(Pope) to be consistant with Jehovah's attributes as revealed to us in his Word.
All these rituals are of men.
We need to get back to our Christian "roots". It's all very simple.Poor people,shepherds, simpletons could understand God's word and come to know him personally-through Christ's sacrifice.
This is not some fancy, gold plated, ritualized religion.
We all have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit now. Each and every one of us.
What a great gift to have!
Jim,
He (the Holy Spirit) is within you. You don't need the Pope. From what you write I know you are moved by the Spirit.
Embrace Him completely. He wants all of you.
Lisa
Yes, we missed you..
My further 2 cents worth...Regarding the elect and the gathering in Mat24; I believe this is talking about the regathering of Israel from the 4 corners of the earth.
Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Isa 27:13 It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.
Isa 43:5 - 7 "Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west. "I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' And to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth, Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made."
Isa 11:12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen…
Isa 43:20 "The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
Isa 45:4 "For the sake of Jacob My servant, And Israel My chosen one, I have also called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor Though you have not known Me.
Rom 11:26 - 28 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers…
T. Francis Glasson wrote: In the OT and also in later Jewish writings two things are associated with the gathering of the dispersed: the trumpet and the ensign (or standard). The following prayer still appears in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book: Sound the great trumpet for our freedom: lift up the ensign to gather our exiles and gather us from the four corners of the earth. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who gatherest the banished ones of thy people Israel. (Quoted from Authorized Daily Prayer Book of the United Hebrew Congregations of the British Empire. [S Singer] p 48) See Renald Shower’s book “Maranatha Our Lord, Come”.
Where do you watch the conference?
Lisa - Welcome back, we missed you.
Mac - Thanks so much for your last post! I've been talking about this with my daughter & you listed the perfect scripture to back up what we were talking about.
Lori- Thanks for asking the question about the conference, I was wondering the same.
Oh and Donna, thanks for the movie comment! lol
Have a great day everyone!
HI Jim,
Thanks for explaining about some of these RCC titles/traditions.
There is no way I would ever refer to anyone here on earth as holy.
I realize you are the lone catholic here (I think), and that many of us were raised catholic and are turned off by the rcc's traditions and teachings.
I think most of the time people here just don't say (write) much in response to your posting about the RCC....
but sometimes it just can't be helped.
A lot of traditions from the RCC are so contrary to what most of us feel are simple basic Biblical teachings, and sometimes it is difficult to ignore some of these blatant rcc traditions and teachings (ie, "His Holiness").
I am writing this all not as an apology, but as an exlanation from my perspective.
I do get a bit hotheaded and frustrated about it all at times, so forgive me for that.
Thank you! :)
Hey Jim,
I plan to TiVo Epicenter08 so if I cannot stay awake, I can watch it later.
Thanks for reminding me to program my TiVo to record it.
Blessings! (Mary)
EpiCenter conference
LIVE STREAMING WILL BE AVAILABLE
The Conference will be video streamed live on this site on April 10th and will be archived for viewing after the conference.
Morning, all,
I found this article interesting, if not thoroughly confusing, as it relates to the move toward everything being 'one world'. Maybe some of the techies can put it in laymen's terms, but the part that really interested me was this:
"Ian Bird, project leader for Cern’s high-speed computing project, said grid technology could make the internet so fast that people would stop using desktop computers to store information and entrust it all to the internet.
“It will lead to what’s known as cloud computing, where people keep all their information online and access it from anywhere,” he said."
Internet Obsolete with coming Grid
Blessings,
Jen
I don't know if someone had already posted this link on Oprah.
At the end of the video you can easily email the link to caution others.
Oprah Warning
Just an interesting note:
Did you know that the big stumbling block for Oprah in her
20's (Raised as a southern Baptist)
was when she was told that "God is a jealous God."
Now look at her on the video. She is so lost. That mentor of hers-look at that guy-who is he?
It didn't seem as if she particularly liked the answer to her question-what happens when we die? We just exist & are eternal.
Wow, how profound. That basically means nothing.
Of course it says something. They are rejecting Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible.
Don't they look like they are in the twilight zone? Oprah just sits there and nods in the interview.
It's really creepy.
Oops...I guess no tv station will be carrying Epicenter8, so will resort to the computer. Ok....
Lisa,
My thoughts exactly, on Oprah!
If only Oprah could understand what Scripture means that "God is a jealous God!" He is a jealous God, but the implication is that 'He is jealous FOR us, not OF us' as Oprah thinks.
He's jealous FOR our well-being, FOR our love and commitment and obedience.
In a very minute and human way, I understand that God is a jealous God in this way: my husband loves me so much that, though he allows me complete freedom, he is also jealous of me in that he is jealous of my time spent away from him; he's jealous for my well-being, my health, my eating right, my getting enough rest, etc., etc., etc. I appreciate my husband's concern for me, and this makes me feel loved, protected, adored, appreciated.
I apply this to God's being jealous as well. I appreciate that He is jealous of my well-being and that He is watching over me while He continues to work in my life. Bless His Holy Name!
Blessings! (Mary)
the problem is it isn't just Oprah.
I spent most of the afternoon yesterday looking at some sites and learned quite a bit more than I bargained for
1-a lot of the emergent church philosophy is based on eastern mysticism and the leaders of the movement acknowledge this!
2-at this time, there doesn't appear to be a single denomination that hasn't to some extent bought into the contemplative spirituality and prayer which are based on eastern mysticism (this has been verified by people who have come out of the eastern tradition into Christianity and they say we're playing with fire) and part of the emergent church philosophy. it has even reared it's head in AWANA.
3-all but a handful of higher institutions have started buying into it is as well-including Moody, Dallas theological, Liberty, Cedarville, Wheaton, Biola-the list is endless. Bob Jones and Pensecola are two of the better known schools who do not use any emergent church stuff in their curriculum.
basically the bottom line is
1-the falling away foretold in the Bible is here-not coming, here
2- I am even more convinced that the one world religion is going to be new age based and worse yet some of our current evangelical leaders are helping to usher it in!
I would urge you to spend some time looking at these two websites-it was quite eye opening for me as I didn't realize just how pervasive this school of thought is and how many of our Christian leaders and teachers are buying into it.
The Contemporary Church and the Church of Laodicea
Lighthouse Research
one other
Watchman Felloship-Christian Apologetics
you may not agree with everything but the sites were eye opening to say the least.
Jib,
I believe what you are saying. I checked out the links you provided. In the church I attend, our leaders have taken the last couple of months to make us aware of many deceptions that are making inroads into many Christian churches. We are a 'free-grace' Baptist church and are committed to God's Word and the teaching of God's Word as Absolute Truth.
I am very much interested in your comment that this deception is making an inroad with the AWANA program. Can you provide me more information about what you mean. The AWANA program has been a great program for our kids in the past, but if there is something there that has not been noticed by our church leaders, we need to look into it. I'd really appreciate your advice here.
Blessings! (Mary)
Mac,
Lots of good verses I'm going to look up. You are going to keep me busy today! Jesus did give His Olivet Discourse before the church actually began. He said in John 10:16 "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear my voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd." If the rapture has not occurred before Daniel's 70th Week begins the elect in Mt. 24 would then include those other sheep. When He said He'd be with us to the end of the age in Mt. 28 I think we'd all agree He was talking to the church there as well. Paul says we are caught up at His parousia, or coming. Jesus tells us His parousia, or coming occurs at the end of the age. The elect are gathered. That is why I see the church included as well. The elect can refer to both Jew and Gentile believers.
(I'm still thinking about that Sabbath thing.)
Jib, Please don't tell me Biola! That is my alma mater. I do have to agree with you. I get their paper "The Connections". I see stuff in it that bothers me. We have Awana at our church as well so I would be interested like Mary as to what you know about this.
While there are many, many Laodicean churches out there, would any of you here at Mr. Hyde's say you are in a faithful church? It sounds like Mary is in one.
the information on AWANA can be found on the lighthouse link starting uncer children. I'll try to link to the specific article.
AWANA 1
if you look at the bottom of one of the lighthouse page it gives a bunch of links and one of them is for colleges. mines on there also if it's any consolation. if you want to read some of what is going on at my institution check out the following.
Cedarville
there is info from both the slice of laodicea site and from the lighthouse sight on the the school as well. it is very sad. I can't say much at this point without endangering someone very close to me who still works there although not for much longer.
as far as a non emergent church. I would have to say that ours borders on it. our pastor who left two years ago I think was going down that trail-but not sure it was a deliberate thing. It was back at the height of the whole purpose driven life thing about 4 years or so ago when many many churches were studying the book. he also introduced the ALPHA program at the church which on the Lighthouse site has some issues with contemplative spirituality as well.
We're in a real bind here. We have a new pastor coming who sounded sound but I'm bothered by the fact that his theology degree is from Columbia University-not exactly a hotbed of evangelical thought. He also had a rapidly growing church where he came from so not sure if it was the blessing of the Holy Spirit or how much he's into the emerging church philosophy. we have not many choices otherwise. a couple of large community churches who are emergent based, a smattering of baptist churches (most with very few members) with some affiliation to national conventions such as the SBC and one calvary chapel fellowship. the large sbc church and oddly enough the calvary church (grew up baptist and no tongues and this is a charismatic based church so there is a discomfort level there) would likely be our best bets. don't know much about the any home churches in the area.
I just took notes on" Oprah's Interview w/a Demon."
(No one of course mentiones that they are actually "demons" but the collective higher forces.)
It is the radio broadcast when she interviews Esther Hicks who channels the demon "Abraham."
Actually "Abraham" talks in the "We" format.
Esther says she looks normal except that her breathing changes and her eyes dialiate. Her person is still there but that she becomes "more" though this "vibration."
Oprah opens the interview by saying that she is only going to try this on her radio show because "TV is not ready for it yet." She is a "virgin" at speaking w/a channeler.
(Esther Hicks does not like it called "Channeling" but Oprah continues to use that term.)
Esther & Jerry Hicks were financially successful people. They didn't have to work and spent most of their time eating and shopping.
Her husband Jerry started reading "Seth" books. Esther started to read one but she(and others she knew) got wierded out by them. There was also a creepy picture on the back cover.
Her husband continued to speak of them and then they met someone out of the blue who asked if they had read them. So she became interested in "Seth." (Seth is another demon who Jane Roberts had channeled but she had died.)
A lady named Theo became the Hicks mentor.
It seemed wierd to them but they started meditating in 1984 and really focused on their breathing.
Finally she had a sensation of feeling numb and detached. She kept going back to this "Breathing" meditation excersise because she liked this particular sensation and it excited her.
About 9 months later she felt that something started "breathing" for her. (sounds like possession to me)
Then soon later she had a sensation that her head was moving-flying & and for 2 months she spelled out the alphabet w/her nose.
In the interview Esther says that Abraham knew Oprah would be receptive to this higher level of thought. The demon quotes :"That it is not wierd from your(Oprah's) perspective but from other's perspectives you see it as wierd."
I didn't listen to much of what the demon "Abraham" had to say since I don't want to listen to their garbage.
The bottom line of it is that they are telling humans that one can control their own experiences by controlling their own thoughts.
Hello-do you get it???????????
Oprah is on the verge of being posessed. She in turn is going to spread and is spreading this like wild fire. (And I personally know about wild fires)
It's the breathing,Yoga,Meditation. It's everywhere you turn. In Churches,Schools, at the YMCA,at Fitness Centers,at Children's Dance studios-you name it.
It won't be humans controlling their own thoughts- it will be the demons controlling the human's thoughts.
OK- as if I was not already flipped out enough. Top it off with Obama in the White House- Come Lord Jesus!!!
I had tried Yoga I think twice about 7 years ago. (See I almost got sucked in) And the THING that freaked me out was the sound of the instructor "Breathing". It was the strangest thing I had ever heard. I remember at the time thinking-something is not right here.
This Yoga/Meditation craze is so "Normalized" now.It has paved the way for what is to come.
Any other thoughts on this?
As they try to convince people of this they always bring up-yeah it seems wierd but-wierd but-wierd but-
Channeling=Demons
Red Flag- Hello out there!!!
It's so sad. It's right out in front and exposed. Yet where is the outcry? I wonder when it is that Oprah feels "TV" is ready for this.
Will she have her own "demon" guide that will speak on TV?
Ok, I need to chill out.
Your turn.
Lisa
Lisa, Shalom! I have time for only a quick reply (HA!) and I'll go into more detail later.
The difference between Jesus and the Pope is that Jesus is G_D and so will ALWAYS know the right thing to do at the right time. The rest of us (Popes included) have to wing it, based on what we believe the Holy Spirit is saying to us.
I did some research to see what some Catholic Apologists have to say on the subject. To say that John Paul II's actions in this regard were "controversial" within the Catholic Church would be stretching the bounds of charity. Here's an excellent summary of the photo and the circumstances around it. The author (a Catholic Apologist) lists a number of possible reasons for the act.
A more in-depth dialog is Here. When I say, "in-depth", I mean long. It's a dialog between two Catholic apologist that occurred via email over a couple of months over this issue, and mentions things like "indifferentism" (a heresy that states it doesn't matter what you believe, so long as you believe) and heretic orders of nuns. The author of this dialogue, Dave Armstrong, a very popular and prolific apologist, having started as an Evangelical apologist before converting to Catholicism in the 90's.
And if anyone doubts John Paul II's true feelings towards Islam, here is a quote taken from one of his books:
Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside.
Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the world, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection. Jesus is mentioned, but only as a prophet who prepares for the last prophet, Muhammad. There is also mention of Mary, His Virgin Mother, but the tragedy of redemption is completely absent. For this reason not only the theology but also the anthropology of Islam is very distant from Christianity.
From Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, pp.92-93.
<><
I do believe there are still faithful churches out there. Could we say 1/7th of them are faithful? Only the Lord knows. Whatever comes, we need to hold fast to Truth and be in the Word.
Spelled the alphabet with her nose? Now that is just plain weird and scary!
Hold fast to Truth, be in the Word!
A few more thoughts came to mind -
To say we are in the Laodicean church age and that there are no faithful churches out there negates the Lord's promise that He will keep the faithful church from the hour of testing. Now as to what "keep from" and "hour of testing" is referring to is still up for discussion and debate. That is not my purpose here. I believe that all the churches in Rev. 2,3 exist today in some form or another. Woven throughout the letters to all the churches Christ speaks of tribulation and overcoming. To one He says if they don't get their act together He will come to them like a thief in the night.
Hold fast to Truth, be in the Word.
Colossians is wonderful by the way!
To those interested....
I just finished reading a great little book by John Ritchie: FEASTS OF JEHOVAH (Foreshadows of Christ in the Calendar of Israel. I was really blessed.
If/When you read it, I'd like to know your thoughts!
Blessings! (Mary)
Jim,
His actions certainly did stir up some controversy w/the Catholic Chruch/blog.
Seems like he's straddling the fence to me. He changes his perspective on Islam depending who he is addressing.
Here is one quote from your link:
I'll let John Paul II have the last word:
Quote:
Christians and Moslems, we meet one another in faith in the one God, our creator, our guide, our just and merciful judge. We strive to put into practice in our daily lives the will of God, following the teaching of our respective holy books. (Documentation Catholique, Jul. 7, 1985)
Here is another quote from the same link. This time- the point of view from a Muslim.
Seems like the Muslims appreciate the fact the Pope kissed the Quran.
Wasn't Jesus betrayed with a kiss?
"All of you are a bunch of racists. You all think that your religion is the only religion. The funny thing is that Judaism does not recognize Christianity or Islam. While Christianity recognizes Judaism but not Islam. The same goes for Islam. Islam recognizes and embraces both Christianity and Judaism yet neither Judaism nor Christianity recognize Islam. It seems that the former never respects and/or acknowledges the latter. Pope John Paul II was the first Pope who actually acknowledged and embraced Islam. The Catholic Church has long been controlled by fanatics, racists, and hypocrites not to mention it has always been plagued by corruption. Finally, when an intelliigent, open-minded, and fair Pope comes they question and/or criticize his actions. Before you go on criticizing the Qur'an maybe you should actually read it. Islam recognizes Jesus and the fact that Mary was a virgin. I do not see how that is false teachings unless you think that Catholocism is false. You are all plagued by ignorance you judged the book without even reading it. Pope John Paul II knew what he was doing when he kissed the Qur'an because he knows it teaches the same things that both the Old and New Testaments teach. Pope John Paul II knew that the Qur'an was a true revelation from God and for that reason he kissed it. Likewise, Muslims respect the Holy Books of Jews and Christians making sure they are clean before touching the books and kissing them for they know that The Scriptures like The Qur'an are revelations from God. To all you biggots out there I encourage you to actually read the Qur'an before condemning it maybe you might end up kissing for the same reason John Paul II kissed it; because it is the source for "TRUTH & JUSTICE" just as The Scriptures."
Jim,
I really don't mean to get on your case.
Your very diplomatic and sincere.
When I see these contradictions I get crazed. To me kissing the Quran is the same as kissing the Satanic Bible. It comes from the same source- just within a different cover.
I know the Pope is fallible and can make mistakes but he's not ignorant.
After myself being deceived with the JW's - My main concern is finding the truth of God's word in the scriptures.
I'm not a front runner in the thought process of the Catholic/Islam end times senario.
Although with actions such as these it sure raises my eyebrows.
I think our ultimate hope is that whatever Christian group we now associate with-that we will be able to discern truth from deception no matter how close we are to that particular fellowship.
The end times are here-we all have to be on guard.For ourselves and one another.
It seems as if the "Father of Lies" is going at mock speed right now. (And he's probably just starting to get revved up)
Lisa
Thanks to all who contributed to the Mat 24 discussion. Lisa and mac, I have to agree with the view that the diciples were asking their questions as Jews. They were just commenting on the "Jewish" temple and asking about the kingdom from this perspective and Jesus answers them with this perspective in mind. That is one of the reasons that the reference to "the sabbath" is in the discourse. The whole discourse is spoken from this Jewish perspective, once this is seen it becomes apparent that no church is in view.
God Bless!
Maybe we ought to go back to eschatology and current events :)
Hi gt:
Before I let Mt. 24 go, I’d like to throw out a couple of other thoughts that have been rattling around in my head. When Jesus is talking to the disciples about what is going to happen He says in verse nine, towards the end of the verse, “and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name.” Would you agree that He is speaking to them as believing Jews? Unbelieving Jews are not hated on account of His name. They are hated for other reasons. (I’m thinking of the Jacob/Esau thing.) I also don’t see unbelieving Jews going to the book of Matthew for information on prophecy. I see Jesus talking to them as believers based on this logic. Believing Jews will be familiar with the NT and Jesus warnings and instructions here for what to do during this time. Will they observe the Sabbath as believing Jews? I don’t know. I think Jesus is just relaying to them that this is going to be a difficult time so ask for the Father for His help. Just thought I’d throw that out there.
I’ve enjoyed the discussion. Thanks.
Kathy
Oh, about the trip.
Well, interesting turn of events.
We were staying at a cousins house.In my mind I thought the best person to witness to him would be my husband who is close to him. Like a brother.
Instead-it ends up being me until the wee hours of the morning.(While my husbands asleep next to me on the couch.)
He's a fence sitter and admits to it. He's got the all roads lead to the same place in his mind yet he has not completely thrown out the authority of the Bible.
He specifically wanted to know if I thought he would go to hell if he died right now.
What about all the "Good" people in the world. What happens to them?
Then the same question came up that Oprah was stumbling with on Alesia's link.
What happens to Good people who NEVER hear/know about Jesus Christ. What happens to them?
That is the only question I couldn't honestly answer. I told him I chatted with a group of believers from different Christian backgrounds and would get back to him on that one.
Any thoughts on that one?
It seems to be a reoccurring concern and stumbling block to some.
Lisa
Lisa,
Even the people who have never heard are not GOOD. Romans 3:10. "There is none righteous, no not one." Bring it back to him. He's heard, what is he going to do with it now?
Shalom! Donna wrote:
Maybe we ought to go back to eschatology and current events :)
Patience, grasshopper. As soon as the Epicenter08 conference starts streaming, I'm sure there will be plenty to talk about.
(I'm wondering if I should do like some soccer fans I know who changed their sleep cycle so they could be awake to watch the World Cup live... Naah. My cats would be walking all over me wanting to know what I was doing.
<><
Kathy,
I can tell that you (as well as MANY others here) are well-read and a real thinker. In fact, some of you are way over my head on some issues. I just purse my lips at that point and say, "Hum-m-m! Oh, my!"
Have you ever studied the seven feasts instituted by God with His people, the Jews?
I know you have strong convictions - and so do I - as well as many others of us who study eschatology and other Biblical topics. I make myself read different slants, as I'm sure you do as well. I want to have a teachable spirit as much as I want to be sober-minded about spiritual matters!
I mentioned a little book earlier that I would like for you to take a look at. The author is John Ritchie: FEASTS OF JEHOVAH (Foreshadows of Christ in the Calendar of Israel.)
The author takes each of the seven feasts and goes into great detail regarding each feast and relates its meaning at that time as well as a later time. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and plan to go back in a day or so and re-read it. It would be a great study for a small group. We have a small group that meets in our home each Monday night. In fact, they will be here soon for dinner and study, so I must hurry along.
Thanks for leaving me a couple of messages on my blog site a while back. I look forward to hearing back from you.
Blessings! (Mary)
Lisa, Shalom! As for your brother's question, "What happens to Good people who NEVER hear/know about Jesus Christ. What happens to them?"
I'll be giving (what else?) the Catholic view. Simply put, G_D knows what is in someone's heart, and He is well pleased by anyone who seeks Him out. At the same time, belief in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living G_D, is in itself a gift from G_D. G_D will not punish those to whom He has not given this gift. If a person is in a state or place where they could not have known of Christ, then they are judged by what the Catholic Church calls "natural laws". Natural laws are the rules of morality that are written into our being as humans. For example, every culture has rules against lying; every culture has rules against taking an innocent life (although those rules can be different from culture to culture), every culture has rules against stealing. These are examples of natural law.
Since no one can be "good" through their own will or action, then the ability to follow these natural laws is based on the gifts G_D gives them to choose to follow these laws. A person who truly desires to be "good" can only do so through the will of the Father, even if that person doesn't know of or recognize the Father. If this person has a desire to be "good" and strives to do so, that desire is pleasing to G_D and that person will be judged based on this desire and how they expressed that desire (how they acted) in life, and may reach heaven. The salvific nature of Christ's sacrifice on the cross was/is for them too, in that they are able to reach heaven ONLY through Christ's sacrifice.
Note that this is not salvation by works -- nothing this person can do on their own will enable them to reach heaven. Instead, this is a result of how the person chooses to use the gifts G_D gave them to know Him better. Even if that knowledge can never happen (at least in the way it's possible for a Christian), G_D will not deny someone who truly wants to know Him. Note also, that this judgment under natural law would (probably) not be available to your brother. I say "probably" because you have witnessed to him; he has apparently received the message; and now he question is if G_D has/is/will grant your brother the gift of faith in Christ Jesus. If he rejects that gift, the gift will not be withdrawn, and he may come to accept Christ later. But the offer of the gift will last only until the end of your brother's life, whether he lives five more decades or five more seconds. And only G_D knows if the offer has been made or accepted.
Hope this helps.
<><
Lisa, JIB, others,
See what God says...
Romans 1:16-32:
"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek [gentiles].
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. [NKJV, emphasis added]
Note how God has ALREADY said that these people, even if they have not specifically heard the Gospel, are still without excuse. He even said in John 3:18 that all those who do NOT believe on the Name of Jesus are ALREADY condemned.
On the other hand, it is not His will that ANY should perish, so I am certain God will make sure that they get the message loud and clear.
Note also how this passage is, in my opinion, a very good description of the days we live in, and is probably is a very apt picture of the "days of Noah" as well.
Consider also, that in the days of Noah, only Noah was found blameless before God, and was living by faith. Everyone else (it would seem that this included Noah's immediate family and sons-in-law) were pursuing their own paths/lifestyles/ways etc., (just like today). God gave Mankind a warning and a sign - Noah and the Ark, and gave them 120 years to repent. Obviously they did not, so God's judgment came, and they all died.
About 100 years ago, God gave us a sign - the great outpouring of Holy Spirit in the Welsh Revival and at Azusa St. - which was confirmed, at the time, by clearly stated prophetic words, that this was the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel 2 concerning the Latter Rain.
At that time, several people received words from the Lord that "in about 100 years from then" there would be the final outpouring of the Former and Latter Rain of Holy Spirit (also as predicted by Joel), and then Jesus would come back for His Bride.
We are beginning to see this outpouring right now. However (in partial answer to JIB) the mainstream denominations are likely to miss this, because so many of them preach against the baptism of Holy Spirit, in the speaking of tongues and healing, signs, wonders and miracles, all of which are itemized by Jesus in the Great Commission as things that should be happening to all those who believe on His Name...
Mark 16:
15 ..“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 “He who believes and is baptized [into the body of Christ - NOT water baptism] will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 “And these signs will follow those who believe in My name:
they will cast out demons;
they will speak with new tongues;
18 “they will take up serpents;
and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them;
they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover[note: not might recover, but will recover].”
There are many, many people in denominational churches of all persuasions that are not born again, and if they are, are certainly not baptised in Holy Spirit with "power from on high" and who actively, even violently oppose the manifestations of all those things that Jesus said would follow those who believed in his Name.
There is also this "emergent Church" movement, that is supposedly trying to go back to some "primitive" form of Christianity - based on their perceptions as to what they think the early Church was like, in operation and function (but with little attempt to understand what the Bible actually says about this time). In doing so, they are throwing out the biblically ordained structure of the local church - which Paul calls the "pillar and foundation of the Truth", with a full time paid pastor, and with oversight/accountability by a group of "elders" - elders being those called into one (or more of) the five-fold ministry of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor or Teacher. As Paul writes in Ephesians 4:11-16:
11 And He [Jesus] Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints [that's US] for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we [that's US] all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we [that's US] should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. [NKJV, emphasis added]
There is no basis whatsoever in Scripture for a Board of Elders having oversight over the Pastor of a local Church, that is comprised of ordinary members of the same local Church, and even less for a Diaconate (?sp) of deacons - deacons are NOT ministers, merely those who take an active part, under the direction of the Pastor, in the every day administration of the local Church activities (e.g. worship leaders, singers, choir, ushers, greeters, sound technicians, people who make house visits to prisons, hospitals, retirement homes, shut-ins.etc, etc.) - who operate in the Ministry of Helps.
Note that the definition of the Greek word "episkopos" [1 Timothy 3:1], which is often (wrongly) translated "bishop" just means the person who has oversight over the local church, literally the "officer in general charge of a (or the) church" - i.e. the Pastor.
The question is, what will happen to all those who attend church, or increasingly, some form of house gathering, who think they are going to Heaven, but are in fact on the wide road to destruction and Hell.
I think that the Rapture, will be in fact God's merciful way of getting their attention (at least some of them), so that when the 144,000 Jewish evangelists are let loose on the world to complete the spread of the gospel to ALL nations, they will listen this time to the true Gospel and get saved.
As I look around, I see all the signs rapidly coming together of a world that has almost completely turned its back on the God of the Bible, and who are actively and vociferously telling God to back out of any involvement in their lives. The hysteria surrounding Global Warming - that somehow mankind alone can fix this perceived problem, without any help from a divine Being - is just a symptom of the world's rapid slide towards a "new age" type religion based on man's own abilities to attempt to take control of both themselves and the world.
We truly are living in the period Jesus likened to the "days of Noah", with everyone behaving as though life is normal and going on fine, and even, according to the New Agers, about to get infinitely better through a coming "new age of enlightenment" of mankind, but definitely without any help from God.
Jesus is coming, sooner than you make think. Maranatha!
John
Hi Mary, I have a similar book about the Jewish Feasts that shows how Jesus fulfilled in person the first 3 spring feasts ( ie.,He died on Passover), how we are now in the harvest season where He is gathering His people, and how Jesus will in person fulfill the fall feasts.
It shows how the Jewish Feasts are really a world calendar.
Josh McDowall has a little chart about it in one of his books (evidence that Demands a Verdict)and I have heard other teachers teach about this, too (Jimmy DeYoung is one that comes to mind.)
Is the book you are referring to similar?
They probably all have a little different take on it...of course! But I guess that's what makes things interesting and encourages us to move forward.
John, you said:
".Jesus is coming, sooner than you make think. Maranatha!"
I hope so!!!!
<><
There has been much quoting of Roman Catholic (and others) traditions and teachings, in particular regarding water baptism, but rarely are they backed up with positions from the whole of Scripture. Sometimes the Apocrypha is quoted to justify a particular stance, but rarely are arguments based on Scripture alone. It is as if people are being are shielded or blinded by their traditions, and do not read the Bible as it is written.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say you must be baptized in water to be saved. This is a another example where the transliterated Greek word baptismoás has been given a meaning in English above and beyond its original meaning, and a whole tradition has then been built on top of it.
In Ephesians 5:26 Paul says that
"He [Jesus] might sanctify and cleanse her [the Church] with the washing of water by the Word".
The Word of God does not wash people by water, and the context does not in any way describe immersion in water (it's actually talking about Marriage), so we have to take this reference to "washing by water" as symbolic, in that it is the Word of God, when applied to a hearer's heart, that will wash them clean from the effect of sin. In the Greek the word translated "washing" is katharismoás which has the meaning to purify - the text does not contain the word baptismoás from which we get the transliterated English word "baptism", the Greek root of which has the meaning "to overwhelm". The original Greek meaning of baptismoás does not necessarily imply the use of water - this is what our traditions have made it to mean.
One of the things the Lord Jesus was most definite about was that mens' traditions and tendency to add to Scripture's requirements make of no effect and render powerless the Word of God.
I am afraid that there will be many well meaning yet deluded ministers of the Gospel of all persuasions and denominations, who will find out that they actually hindered people from coming to know the saving power of God, because their traditions had made the Word of God ineffective in those people's lives. Sadly, I have seen this in action just recently with one of the more influential Pastor's in our city - his religion is so weak (and his God is so small) because he follows the traditions of his (mainstream) denomination, that he actually denies and misquotes scripture, without being aware of it, to justify his theology.
Finally (if you read this far), I too was baptized as an infant (did nothing), then I was confirmed with the laying on of hands by an Anglican Bishop in my early teens - supposedly to receive Holy Spirit (as per Acts - again nothing happened), but I become disillusioned, so much so that I reached the point where I had given up on Christianity, having struggled with dead religion and mens' traditions masquerading as true faith, because all that I saw were stale, dead traditions, there was no life, no joy and no purpose in people's lives and they certainly did not exhibit the abundant life of "living waters" that Jesus spoke off.
This went on until God graciously and supernaturally opened my eyes to the real Truth of his Word, and I become born-again of the Spirit of God, when I was 21. I was then "baptized" by full immersion (overwhelmed if you will) a few years later (it took me that long to get some of my traditions broken down), as a public statement of what God had caused to happen in my life - not to "save" me, or "cleanse" me but just as a witness.
It became obvious to me from the account in John Ch 4 that the "living water" Jesus speaks of is not the H2O kind, but something much better - spiritual life that transforms people from the inside out. It has NOTHING to do with the traditional religious expression of baptism (infant or believers).
Again, in John 7 Jesus cries out:
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Here, there is no room for confusion, since the Word explains that this "living water" is the life of Holy Spirit dwelling in a believer. It is not, as you stated "running water" for use in baptism. Again traditions of Men have made of no effect (robbed it of power and meaning) the Word of God.
I had no say in whether or not I was baptized as an infant. This was my parent's beliefs.
I did however want to be confirmed - I was desperately wanting something real in my life as far as God was concerned - I was brought up on the Bible, but my parents were not able to explain that I needed to be "born again" (or what that meant) in order to receive the life of God, and to have his Holy Spirit come to live in me. (My father was an ordained minister of the Church of England - an Anglican vicar...)
After God had done this work in me at the age of 21, I found out a short while later that I had also received the Baptism of Holy Spirit, and sure enough, once I had had this explained to me, I was able to speak in tongues, just like the early disciples did. (I had NEVER heard anything to do with Holy Spirit and His role in my life till then - again the traditions of men had made God's Word of no effect).
On an entirely separate note, some people say that we are "filled" with the Holy Spirit when we are born again. The problem is that this idea is not entirely scriptural (do I hear the shout of "heresy"). Yes, we receive Holy Spirit "within" us, when we are born-again. But having the Spirit come "up on" us, as happened to Jesus after His water baptism by John, is a separate, and different experience, with a different purpose.
Again you must read the Word of God with understanding. The first disciples were "born-again" when Jesus breathed on them and said "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 22:22).
If they had received the "power" of the Holy Spirit at that point, why did Jesus tell them to wait in Jerusalem until they had received "power from on high" (Luke 24:49, Acts 1:8).
You might then argue that this is the only time this occurred, to which I reply "read the Book of Acts, and study the life of Paul".
In Acts 8:14-17 it says:
"14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [="born again" NOT water baptism!! - the Greek "baptismo" does NOT mean water baptism - that is what our traditions have made it come to mean. There are the "doctrine of baptisms" (pl) Hebrews 6:2 = different types of baptism, apart from water baptism].
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."
Luke's account then goes on to tell the story of Simon the sorcerer who tried to pay money for the supernatural event he had just witnessed - receiving of the power of the Holy Spirit, as manifested by the believers "speaking in tongues".
Again, in Acts 10, which tells of when Peter, at God's direction, traveled from Joppa to Caesarea, and came to the house of a Roman Centurion, where we see the same process taking place, to the surprise of all those who had come with Peter. In this case we see the Gospel preached, the people received the Word, believed, confessed their faith in Jesus out loud, were "born again", and then were baptized in holy Spirit, again with the evidence of speaking in tongues. After this, Peter then commanded them all to be water baptized (notice the specific reference to water).
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
36 "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—
37 "that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:
38 "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 "And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree.
40 "Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,
41 "not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42 "And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
43 "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. [This means that all who received the gift of Holy Spirit (= the baptism of Holy Spirit) MUST have been born-again BEFORE this happened]
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Thus, in this passage alone, we have the model for how we gentiles are to receive both salvation ("baptism" into the Body of Christ = being "born again") and the baptism of Holy Spirit, with the evidence of "speaking in tongues" today. Water baptism is merely symbolic of the believer having ALREADY been born again. You can also see from this passage that, once Peter and the others who had come with him to Caesarea had got over their surprise that the Gospel truly was for ALL, Jews and Gentiles alike, there was no surprise at them receiving the baptism of Holy Spirit and then speaking in tongues. Tongues was the sign (=evidence) that they had received the baptism of Holy Spirit. If this was the case then, it must still be the case today.
Similarly, on the road to Damascus (Acts 9, Paul receives Jesus as Lord, and confesses Him as His Lord. According to Romans 10:9-10 that is ALL we need to do to be "born again" of the Holy Spirit. But then we read that Jesus tells Paul to continue on into the city and wait. He does so and it says that Ananias came to Paul and
" Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”" (Acts 9:17)
Since Paul later says that he prayed "in tongues more than all of you" [Corinthian church], he must have received the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" with the evidence of speaking in tongues, just like the first 120 disciples did on the day of Pentecost. If God did this for them, He MUST do it for us, as He is no respecter of persons.
In Acts 19, we see Paul meeting with a group of 12 men at Ephesus, who knew nothing of the baptism of Holy Spirit - it seems that they had only heard about the coming of the Messiah from John the Baptist's teachings.
1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John’s baptism."
4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [meaning, they were "born-again" into the Body of Christ - NOT immersed in water]
6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
7 Now the men were about twelve in all.
We see here Paul explaining them the full Gospel message, they receive it, are born-again, and when Paul then lays hands on them, they are baptized with Holy Spirit and the evidence of this was that they "spoke with tongues and prophesied". It couldn't be much clearer!
Thus, just from these examples (and there are more), we see that there is a distinction in Scripture between being "born-again" and receiving the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" with the evidence of speaking in tongues. It is also clear that being water baptised will do nothing for your salvation - it is intended only as an outward confirmation or proclamation that you have already received Jesus as Lord, and have already been born-again by the Spirit of God.
I dare you to go against your "traditions" and "preconceptions", and "in faith" (i.e. believing the Word of God), ask God to give you the gift of The Holy Spirit. I can assure you it will transform your whole walk with God. If I am wrong (or a heretic, as some would call us who believe this way), then nothing will happen... What do you have to loose?
Were you aware that the Wesley brothers (John and Charles) who started the Methodist movement in England were both filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues? Were you aware that the majority of the great men and women of God who were mightily used over the past 400 (?) years were also similarly "afflicted", including Martin Luther, Count Zinzendorf, Charles Spurgeon, Andrew Murray, Smith Wigglesworth, Kathryn Kuhlman, Aimee Semple McPherson, Charles Finney, to name a few? The movements that have seen operations of the 9 Holy Spirit gifts cover the Waldenses, Huguenots, Mennonites, Reformers, Covenanters, Quakers, Moravians, Methodists and Pentecostals, to give a rough overview.
John
I know plenty of Christians who are Spirit filled and don't speak in tongues. It is God who decides how to distribute the gifts. I'm sorry John but I have to respectfully disagree with some of the things you say. Here's another perspective.
Is speaking in tongues evidence for having the Holy Spirit?
See also the related articles.
Hi Mary,
I haven't done a lot of studying on the feasts but you have encouraged me to do just that! Our Pastor just finished up the book of Esther in our evening service so Purim is fresh on my mind. I will look into that little book. Thank you for the reference.
John,
"Note how God has ALREADY said that these people, even if they have not specifically heard the Gospel, are still without excuse. He even said in John 3:18 that all those who do NOT believe on the Name of Jesus are ALREADY condemned."
Excellent point! I gotta go with Mac on the rest however.
Mac,
I'm going to check out your link in the morning. It's way past my bedtime!
The UN's Attack On Our Freedoms
boatman,
I realize that you have the gift of tongues and probably most of us cave dwellers do not.
So I sense that you feel we are missing out on something.
And if I put myself in your shoes and had a special gift I thought my brothers & sisters in Christ could have if they only asked for it- I can see how you would want to share that information so everyone could also have that opportunity.
Ok, I got it. So if I ask for this gift of tounges-then what? What am I suppose to do with it?
So far I've been with Mac on this view of "speaking with tounges."
Following is a paragraph from the link Mac posted that I agree with.
At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command that God gave through the Apostle Paul, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two — or at the most three — should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God" (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in submission to 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
I believe that you have this gift and that others do as well.
But what are you doing with it? Are you reaching people of other cultures and languages so they can see the Glory of God through you?
It sounds like this may be your calling. Is this how you are using it? Or do you just keep it to yourself? Do you speak this way in Church? Who benefits from it?
Those are my main questions.
If I ask for this gift & I receive it then I want to use it to glorify the Father as it was used in the days of the Apostles.
If I were a missionary or in my case for example-wanted to speak to my Iranian friend in her language-I can see how this could glorify the one true God and reach the lost.
BTW- I completely agree with you on the subject of baptism.
Lisa
interesting article on a book written about David through the "eyes" of Saul's daughter and another character. don't agree with most of her take on it and despite coming from an ultraorthodox background and extensively studying Judiasm she seems to me to be a little messed up. however what is interesting about this article is that she believes that messiah should and will come from the house of Joseph not David (not accurate I know) but is apparently one stream of thought within Judaism.
the link to the entire article is
The Trouble with David
you really need to read the full article for her take on David and Saul etc but this is what she has to say in particular about a messiah coming through the line of Joseph-
" "We still fantasize about a messiah who comes from the house of David 3,000 years later. But certain voices in our culture talk about different models of leadership, about Saul and Jeroboam. These are entirely different styles of monarchy. I am not, heaven forbid, saying that we should erase the David model, but that we should try to think about the option of a messiah who comes from the house of Joseph. The sages talk about it, Rav Kook talks about it. It is an option."
How do the two models differ?
"Leadership by the house of Joseph is far more pluralistic. The David model calls for concentrating ritual in one location." "
interesting slant on her vision of Messiah -pluralism etc. might explain how some Jews get caught up believing that antichrist is messiah
overcomer;
Here is a question and answer that may help to qualify my understanding of Mat 24 and all the Olivet discourses in the Gospels:
"The Olivet Discourse
Ask a Bible Teacher / Jack Kelley
Q. Many scholars teach that the Olivet Discourse was written for the Church, but you say the focus is on Israel. If you're right why does the Olivet Discourse even appear in Mark and Luke when these two Gospels are mainly Gentile in their focus? Please explain.
A. This is a very important issue. 2 days before the cross 4 disciples came to Jesus with 3 questions. They were prompted by one of the disciples commenting on the beauty of the Temple and Jesus predicting its destruction.
The questions were:
1. When will this happen (the Temple's destruction)?
2. What will be the signs of your (2nd) coming?
3. What will be the signs of the end of the age?
Their mindset in asking these questions is critical to our understanding. While the Jews were in Babylon during the 70 year captivity, the angel Gabriel had told Daniel that Israel would be given 490 years from the date they received authorization to rebuild Jerusalem to wrap everything up. (Daniel 9:24-27) 483 of those years had past. The Temple had been under construction for nearly 40 years and wasn't finished yet. They were thinking they were nearing the end of the age and now Jesus tells them that everything will be torn down. There had never been any talk of a Church Age or a Rapture or of the disciples evangelizing the world. We know about all these things from hindsight, but they were probably in a state of great distress when they came to Him.
The answer to their first question is contained only in Luke 21:12-24. There you can read the Lord's prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The answers to questions 2-3 are contained in all three accounts of the event. Keep in mind that when the disciples asked these questions they thought they were only 7 years away from the End. This is confirmed by the question they asked on the Mount of Olives after the resurrection. "Lord, are you now going to restore the Kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6)
As I noted in my study on the Olivet Discourse Matthew's account is especially Jewish, warning people in Judea, invoking Jewish Sabbath Laws, and mentioning the Abomination of Desolation, an event in Jewish History. There's no mention of the Church anywhere in any of it, because at this point in time there was no Church. Later, Paul would disclose that the Church would not be present during this time.
As for why the Olivet Discourse even appears in Mark and Luke when these two Gospels are mainly Gentile in their focus, there will be many on Earth who will miss the Rapture, perhaps coming to faith because of it. Matthew, Mark and Luke all write to them, Jew and Gentile, giving them the signs of His coming and of the End of the Age to help them persevere through mankind's darkest Hour. Remember, just because the Olivet Discourse isn't written to the Church doesn't mean it isn't for gentiles."
The verse about being hated because of His name doesn't only apply to the "church age" it applied to the disciples and will apply during the tribulation after the church is gone.
God Bless!
Jack Kinsella has a good article this week:
2012: TEOTWAWKI
Jib,
Thanks for the AWANA alert.So many Churches use that program.My past Church does so I sent the link to some friends heavily involved there.
This New Age deception is really creeping into anything and everything it can.
Mary,
Thanks for the "Feasts "referral. I've heard some discussion on our blog and other places but I'd like to know more.
gt,
I think that is the best explaination yet on Mat 24.
Lisa
Hi all,
This morning's discussions on the gift of tongues really impacted me and I felt very much moved to share my own experience with it. I spent all morning typing this up (and neglecting my kids!) but I thought I'd post it at my blog rather than take up alot of space here, esp. since not everyone is interested in it. If you are, you're welcome to stop over and take a look.
Blessings,
Jen
There are two distinct manifestations of the gift of tongues. According to Jesus' own words, ALL believers in Jesus are entitled to receive this gift of speaking in other, unknown tongues when they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It's a promise that comes with the other instructions for fulfilling the Great Commission - which, by the way, you can ONLY do effectively if you have received the "power from on high" that comes from receiving the Baptism of the Holy SPirit - which according to the Word, is a major reason why Jesus came - to baptize us with Holy Spirit, just as He was before He started His ministry here on Earth. If Jesus needed it, then we, His Body here on Earth, must need it too!
1) You receive the gift of speaking in tongues when you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is for your PRIVATE prayer life - you have complete control over when you pray in tongues.
2) Once you have received the baptism of Holy Spirit - Jesus called it being endured with power from on high - you can make yourself available to holy Spirit in congregational meetings (i.e. church, prayer meetings) to be used as the vehicle to manifest one or more of the 9 "gifts" described in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11. Please note that the context of Chapter 12-14 of 1 Corinthians is about spirituals - things, actions, activities, etc. pertaining to the work of Holy Spirit in a believer, both individually and in a body of believers. Much of Chapter 12 deals with the expression, use of, manifestation of Holy Spirit's activities in a corporate setting (worship service, prayer meeting, etc.).
Two of these 9 gifts (more correctly termed manifestations are related - the gift of speaking out a tongue and the gift of interpreting the tongue. Please note that "interpretation" is NOT a translation. The combination of these two gifts in operation is equivalent to the gift of simple prophecy, which is for the edification and exhortation and comfort to men (1 Corinthians 14:3).
These 9 gifts operate through believers AS AND WHEN Holy Spirit wills (see 1 Cor 12:11) - you have the choice to go along with Him or not.
Now to clarify the use of tongues in private.
Firstly, tongues can be the "tongues of men or angels" - I doubt anyone here understands the language of angels! (1 Corinthians 13:1)
Speaking in tongues is speaking to God. It is Holy Spirit, speaking through your spirit, in a language that is not known to the speaker (and usually neither to the hearers also). It says in that when we speak in tongues, we are speaking to God, and only He understands. (1 Corinthians 14:1)
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
In 1 Cor 14:13 it says that praying in tongues is our spirit praying...but that our minds will not understand...
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Furthermore, when we speak in our private prayer language, the Word says He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself (1 Corinthians 14:4).
This is confirmed in Jude 20
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit
Furthermore, praying in tongues enables us to pray the perfect will of God for any given situation:
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Romans 8:26)
To clarify, when a person speaks in tongues, he or she is speaking in a language that they do not know. This language MAY be a human language, or it may be a heavenly language, that no one on Earth would know. In all cases, the person is speaking out the mysteries of god, to God. It may be that Holy Spirit will give the speaker an interpretation, or a sense of what they are praying about, but this is not necessary. Praying in tongues are a major part of "praying in the Spirit", but not all "praying in the Spirit" is done in a tongue. Tongues can be manifested either in speaking or singing "in the Spirit".
(As an aside, or perhaps as a word of warning - it is so easy for us to just babble away in tongues, without any focus, having completely disengaged our minds and intellects from the process. This is akin to having a conversation with a very dear friend, and appearing to be completely ignoring them when they are saying something, by being distracted by whatever comes to mind.)
Lisa, I think that this provides an answer to your question "So if I ask for this gift of tongues - then what? What am I suppose to do with it?" You are supposed to use it as your supernatural prayer language, so that you can pray out the perfect will of God for any given situation, and, equally important, to "build(ing) up yourself(es) on your most holy faith".
Notice how Paul makes a clear distinction in 1 Corinthians 14: between praying in tongues "in the church" and privately, even going so far as to boast that he "speak with tongues more than you all".
15 ....I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding [clearly meaning that we are to do both!].
16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Now, regarding your understanding of the use of "tongues" in public...as referenced by the comment"
...if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language
First of all, I can say, with almost complete certainty, that the person who originally wrote this, does not speak in tongues!! If he (or she) did, they would KNOW that this is false doctrine!!
1) It is active in the Church today, it's just limited to those who believe and accept the teachings of Paul on the matter (and those of Jesus!).
2) Paul is ABSOLUTELY clear that tongues will NOT be understood naturally. He covers this in great depth in 1 Corinthians 14. He does NOT say, just because someone does not understand what is being said, that we should not say it. He also explains that the person who gives a message in tongues "in the Church" should ask Holy Spirit for the interpretation, in case there is no one else able or willing to do this. In a mature congregation of believers, who have been properly taught on this subject, there will usually be several people who know how to flow in the "gifts" of Holy Spirit, and can step in to give an interpretation..
From my limited experience, Paul is again correct in saying that "tongues" are a sign for the unbeliever - that means ANYONE (born-again or not) who does not believe in the gifts of speaking in tongues and interpretation - see 1 Corinthians 14:22.
What I have seen is that, in our church, when we have a visitor, there is often a message in tongues, followed by an interpretation. When it is just the regular attendees, we usually only have prophetic words or songs come forth.
I personally have been present in a recent service when a visitor came, who was Portuguese (she was a believer). Our pastor gave a beautiful message in tongues, followed by the interpretation, complete with expressive hand and body movements - which she did during both the tongue message and its interpretation. Now I KNOW for a fact that the language of the tongue was NOT Portuguese, but after the service the visitor came to thank the Pastor for giving such a beautiful prophesy in Portuguese!!
I know personally of several other occurrences, one back in the '70s, when two YWAM girls, who were attending the Olympics in Russia, felt impressed to remain in the lobby of their hotel one morning. Shortly afterwards, an older lady came in and sat down beside them and began to speak in Russian to them. Neither girl spoke Russian (they were both actually Americans!). Not knowing what else to do, they responded in their tongue languages - both audibly different!. The lady continued her side of the conversation, which lasted nearly 45 minutes! She then arose, and with obvious pleasure, appeared to thank both girls for their conversation, and then left. Neither girl had any knowledge of what they had been saying during the entire conversation, but both said afterwards that the lady was most appreciative!!
More recently, a Pentecostal Minster from Canada, who is a native Scandinavian speaker, with no knowledge of Russian, was one of the visiting guest speakers at a conference of Pentecostal churches in St. Petersburg, Russia (I think it was there - it definitely was in Russia)) was approached by a family, with their Pastor, who communicated that they would very much appreciate some word of encouragement from the minister. Not knowing what else to do, the minister started to speak in her private tongue language. This continued for a while. At the end, the family profusely thanked the minister, and went on their way, appearing to have been greatly blessed and reassured. Afterwards, this family's Pastor came up to the Minister and said "I thought you said you could not speak Russian. You have just given that family a most beautiful blessing and prayer in the most perfect Russian I have ever heard!"
In the passage in Acts 2, where it says that the people heard in their own languages what the disciples were saying, please note that it does NOT say that the disciples were speaking in those known languages, but that the hearers heard their own languages. This is born out by my own experiences cited above.
All I can tell you is that Jesus promised that those who believed on His Name would, as part of their equipping for the Great Commission, be able to speak with unknown tongues. I would not presume to go about trying to talk to strangers in my tongue language, unless I was absolutely sure that this what Holy Spirit was telling me to do. Paul is right, people would think we were all crazy if we did this - and I don't limit that response to unsaved persons - many Christians would think it too!
Lisa, your statement Are you reaching people of other cultures and languages so they can see the Glory of God through you? comes from your misunderstanding of what tongues is primarily for - its not an instant language school - the bible is VERY clear that it is for you to communicate to your Heavenly father in private, or in a congregation of like minded and united believers. It is, if you will, your own private "love language" for when you want to be intimate with God, don't know how or what to pray, or you feel the need to "build yourself up" - i.e. strengthen your faith for a given situation.
Praying in tongues, with your mind focused on the subject you want to pray about is the most powerful way of praying for somebody else, or for a situation to be changed by God. You know (from the Word) that when you are "praying in the Spirit" that you are praying whatever is exactly necessary for God to be able to act on your behalf, thus giving you great confidence and faith in the expected outcome.
This is just the tip of the iceberg on the subject of "praying in the Spirit". There is a whole other world out there that you can enter into when you "pray in the Sprit". It becomes more like a real interactive conversation between you and God. You pray in tongues, listening with your spirit to see if Holy Spirit says anything back - it may be just a word or a phrase in your native language, which initially may not mean much. You speak that word or phrase back to God, and continue in tongues. You will find you receive a developing revelation of what it is Holy Spirit is trying to get you to say, at which point you can more easily hook up your intellect and understanding to more tightly focus in on what Holy Spirit wants to do and say through you.
Remember, it is only by the power released through our words that God is free to do things on our behalf here on Earth. If we do not speak out words of faith, God literally cannot do anything here on Earth. This is because He has given us (the Church - see Matthew 28:18) all His authority to have control over and take dominion over everything here on the Earth, and we have to give that authority back to Him by speaking out our requests and prayers to enable Him to act on our requests.
John
Anyone want to make predictions as to what might happen if this goes through...
[It was] announced Tuesday that the United States was planning a peace conference between Israeli and Palestinian Authority officials in May.
Beilin: Peace Conference Planned for May
Condi Rice is at it AGAIN!!
John
I am allowing anonymous posts again. There are one or two, who are here legitimately, and who do not have a blue ID.
Hey, Grany, haven't heard from you for a while. Is everything OK?
Jim,
What were the overlapping dates for the 40th and 60th anniversaries coming up. Can't find them again.
Granny, I've heard from you in a while.. everything ok in Okie Land?
John, Excellent teachings as usual..
Jen, thanks for sharing, I've been praying for the same insight.
Thanks Mike
aah, Mr Hyde,
I see you were checking on Granny too.
Of course I meant to say I've "not" heard... (who needs preview)
Mike
This is for those interested in the Mt. 24 discussion that has been going on. gt, while we probably won’t change each other’s minds I would like to throw out some other thoughts regarding the Olivet Discourse. I did a bit more research and thinking on the Sabbath reference.
Matthew’s account of the Olivet Discourse is the only one that has the Sabbath reference. Mark’s account does not mention it. Why? My first observation would be the audience. Matthew’s is largely Jewish, Mark’s is Roman. This does not negate the fact that the focus is for believers because why would Mark mention it to Gentiles if it were only for Jews? The teaching is for believers. Matthew likely puts out the Sabbath reference because Jews would understand what travel over the Sabbath would mean. The next question would be, why would the Sabbath cause trouble for those who are instructed to flee?
I learned that the Sabbath can mean two things – one is the actual last day of the week, Saturday – but it can also mean a special day set aside for remembrance, a holy convocation, a commanded day of rest. (See Leviticus 23:1-8) Packing up and leaving on a Sabbath (after seeing the AofD) would draw attention to oneself, considering the whole nation would be shut down on God-ordained holidays. There are believing Jews who observe God’s festivals. (I have a friend who has believing Jewish friends - I learned this just today - who go to church on Saturday in Israel because that is the only day of the week they don’t have work or school.) Since Matthew wrote to a Jewish audience, we can assume that they understood how traveling on a Sabbath would complicate the matter. Destruction is going to come hard and fast. They won’t have much time so Jesus instructed them to pray so they won’t have to travel in the winter or on a Sabbath. (Maybe if there was snow they would leave footprints?!)
Let’s go to Paul’s reference to the AofD (2 Th. 2), only he refers to it as when the man of lawlessness is revealed when he sets himself up as God in the temple. In verse three Paul says the day of the Lord won’t happen until that happens first. He ties the day of the Lord in verse two with the Lord’s coming (parousia) and our gathering. In 1 Th. 5:4 He instructs the Thessalonians that they are not in darkness that the day of the Lord should overtake them like a thief. Why? Because of the signs given in Mt. 24! The AofD, the unprecedented persecution, and then the sign in the sun, moon, and stars signaling the end of the age/day of the Lord.
I’d like to take you to one final passage. 2 Peter 3:3,4. Peter says that in the last days there will be mockers that will come mocking saying, “Where is the promise of His coming, or parousia?” Take careful note that they don’t say, “Where did everyone disappear too?!” No, I think this is referring to the time of unprecedented persecution that will be going on against Israel and the church, also God’s elect. Peter says that God is patient, not wanting any to perish but that all should come to repentance. Then what does he say in verse ten? “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief…” Remember Paul says the day of the Lord will not happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed. And He also says that the rapture will occur at the Lord’s coming, or parousia in 1 Th. 4. Mt. 24 places the Lord’s coming or parousia at the end of the great tribulation which is cut short of the sake of the elect. It all fits together perfectly, at least for me anyway.
Mary, I'm really getting excited about the Jewish feasts. I see the very real possibility that certain events associated with the Lord's second coming will occur in precise relation to three of the Jewish feasts, just as His crucifixion occurred in precise relation to the Passover at His first coming.
boatman,
I liked your comment:-"its not an instant language school."
You have a great sense of humor!
This must be frustrating for you to explain what speaking in tongues accomplishes.
It's a concept that most of us are taught to stay away from and we just don't get it.In fact I've never even seen it.
I would say it's similar to Christians studying Bible prophesy. Most are not taught, are told to stay away from it and therefore-don't get it either.
But with your last explaination I'm starting to at least understand the concept.
Thanks for taking the time.
Lisa
News, opinions, ....
Tony Blair declares his faith: I want to awaken world's conscience
He is positioning himself as a AoC supporter, with statements like: religions of all kinds should be rescued from extremism and irrelevance to help meet a "profound yearning within the human spirit" at a time of unprecedented global turbulence. [That includes us crazy extremist Christians...]
He also said that his foundation would focus on the "Abrahamic faiths" of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, as well as Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism, and that it would help people of those faiths "discover what they share" and "help partner those within any of the faiths who stand up for peaceful co-existence and reject the extremist and divisive notion that faiths are in fundamental struggle against each other".
UK PM Brown to host world leaders at 'progressive' summit
More signs of mainstream politicians in the West pursuing global governance [read global government], with statements like Brown called for the development of a form of "globalisation that is fair and sustainable for all." in a speech ahead of the "progressive governance summit"
EU: Time for a more coherent voice
A call for Europe to have [even] more of a unified voice in global politics. Although this would require some significant changes, it is eminently possible that the EU could soon end up with a quasi government of unelected leaders - Tony Blair as President, Javier Solana as Foreign Minister (and in charge of the EU's combined military forces - not hard, since he is practically already in charge of them).
Olmert, Abbas Affirm Agreement
Will Be Reached By End of 2008
Of course, they will be very firmly "pushed" to do this by Condi Rice... I wonder what she will have to do to get some real progress - whatever it is it won't be good for the US...
Solana: Peace Settlement By 2008
Still Possible
Notice how Solana keeps popping up with these statements about peace in the ME every few weeks - he is determined to keep a big finger stirring the pot, or stuck into the pie.
Exclusive: Ahmadinejad denies al Qaeda’s 9/11 attack on America
Next he will be saying that the Pilgrim Fathers didn't settle North America, it was really first done by the Arabs, and the US is really a Muslim country...
Oh, and he also says that Iran is now a nuclear power....
Exclusive: What or who ordered US army not to interfere in Basra?
Is someone in the US State Dept actively supporting or helping the Iranians to be in position to take control of Iraq when the US troops leave (i.e. are pulled out by the next Dem. President)?
Petraeus and Crocker stress Iran’s destructive role in Iraq at Senate hearing
Of course, nothing will continue to be done about Iran...it might put the price of oil up too much...and who REALLY cares about little ol' Israel..?
Exclusive: Israel’s five-day missile defense exercise exposes unready home front
Why does this not really surprise me? Olmert is far more interested in giving away Judea and Samaria and half of Jerusalem than he is in protecting the State of Israel...the question is always, "What's in it for him?"
Exclusive: Fatah and Hamas reach framework accord in three weeks of secret talks
This was SO predictable.... But it won't stop Olmert and Livni and Barak continuing to make secret deals to give away the Promised Land...
Disclaimer: Comments are author's own thoughts and musings...
John
GT
I agree-likely the best explanation I've heard yet on Mat 24.
Lisa
I would urge your friends and anyone else involved with AWANA to see if those materials are indeed being used or if a contemplative meditation and spirituality are being taught. When the Bible calls on us to meditate it doesn't seem to me to involve and emptying of the mind like most teach but a singular focus on the attributes of God. I would have to agree that quite a bit of what is out there with the emergent church and such is taken from eastern mysticism which ought to raise many red flags.
I was reading the Tony Blair story and ran across this.
Just think if this scientist blew himself into smithereens trying to prove there is no God.
The God Particle
Jim,
After reading the "Tony Blair" link John posted.
Do you think Blair sounds like a Catholic?
Or is he leaning toward emergent thinking?
We know he had just converted to Catholicism but that doesn't mean his heart is in it.
Lisa
Shalom, all! Now THIS is interesting:
Report: Saudi Official Arrested in Mughniyeh Death
The source said that Israel planned the assassination, but that the killing itself was carried out by local Arabs with Syrian and Jordanian citizenship ... Saudi Arabia was heavily involved,...
And people say it's impossible for people in the Mideast to really work together!
<><
Nate, what are you talking about!? There's nothing wrong with picking dates! I love picking dates! When they're fresh, you cut them in half, put some cream cheese in them with a dollop of honey... YUM!
<><
Nate, I think Ezekiel 38:21 is talking about "the fog of war"/friendly fire.
<><
overcomer;
"The next question would be, why would the Sabbath cause trouble for those who are instructed to flee?"
My understanding is that Jews are not allowed to work on the Sabbath, this includes travel which is considered work. Remember Jesus being rebuked for healing on the Sabbath. Jesus also has concern for pregnant and nursing mothers, all these thing will be a hardship on the people fleeing as would traveling in the snow.
Also from my point of view there will be "tribulation saints" and gentiles as well as Jews on the earth during the trib. We know this from the sheep and goat judgement at the end of the trib.
“Let’s go to Paul’s reference to the AofD (2 Th. 2), only he refers to it as when the man of lawlessness is revealed when he sets himself up as God in the temple. In verse three Paul says the day of the Lord won’t happen until that happens first. He ties the day of the Lord in verse two with the Lord’s coming (parousia) and our gathering. In 1 Th. 5:4”
Here is an explanation of 2 Th 2, (better than I can put together, hope it helps w/ questions):
2nd Thessalonians / A Bible Study by Jack Kelley:
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. (2 Thes.2:1-2)
Here we get an extraordinary insight into the sequence of End Times events that Paul had taught them. Receiving word that the Day of the Lord had come would have upset them only if they'd been led to believe that the Rapture of the Church would precede the Great Tribulation. Think about it. From any other view, this kind of news would have been greeted with a certain amount of joyous anticipation. Sure the next few years would really be rough, but whether by martyrdom or survival they would soon be in the presence of the Lord forever. But from the pre-trib perspective, hearing that the Day of the Lord had come would be horrifying, because it would mean that they had missed the rapture. And that would mean that they weren't saved. No wonder they wrote Paul for clarification!
It's important to understand that they had asked Paul two questions. The first concerned the Day of the Lord and the second was about our being gathered to Him, the Rapture. Paul answered the 2 questions in that order using verses 3-5 to describe conditions that would bring about the Day of the Lord and verses 6-8 to explain when the rapture would occur in relation to them.
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? (2 Thes. 2:3-5)
Confirming and amplifying Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy (Daniel 9:27) and the Lord's own words in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:15), Paul pegged the beginning of the”Great Tribulation” to the moment the antichrist stands in the Temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself to be God.
And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. (2 Thes. 2:6-8)
Before the antichrist can be officially revealed, One who is currently limiting the power of lawlessness has to be taken out of the way. The phrase "out of the way" literally means out of the midst, or from amongst. Some force that restrains (literally: holds back, or hinders) the power of evil within certain predetermined limits (for this power is already evident on Earth) has to be removed.
Scholars who read the passage literally identify this force as the Holy Spirit. And since the Holy Spirit is sealed within us, if He's taken out from amongst the people of Earth, we have to go too. You can't take the Restrainer without taking the container, as someone has said. This is the Rapture of the Church, and once we’re gone the power of evil will be free from restraint and all Hell will break loose on Earth until the Lord returns at the end of the Great Tribulation to put a stop to it.
Here then is the sequence. Before the Day of the Lord can come, the antichrist has to be revealed, and before he can be revealed the church has to be raptured. So according to Paul the next prophetic event concerning believers will be our own disappearance. No prior notice, no precedent condition to fulfill; a clear presentation of the Doctrine of Imminence.
“I’d like to take you to one final passage. 2 Peter 3:3,4. Peter says that in the last days there will be mockers that will come mocking saying, “Where is the promise of His coming, or parousia?” Take careful note that they don’t say, “Where did everyone disappear too?!” No, I think this is referring to the time of unprecedented persecution that will be going on against Israel and the church, also God’s elect.”
My understanding of this passage is the “last days” refers to the time we are in now as well as the time until Jesus returns at the end of the trib. Don’t people both in the church and the world say this even today? If this is true way would anyone say that today?
…” Remember Paul says the day of the Lord will not happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed. And He also says that the rapture will occur at the Lord’s coming, or parousia in 1 Th. 4. Mt. 24 places the Lord’s coming or parousia at the end of the great tribulation which is cut short of the sake of the elect.
These statements are addressed above. Sorry about the length of this but Jack Kelley has more backround and can explain this better than I can hope to. I pray it helps with your questions.
God Bless!
Nate, Shalom! You wrote:
I think we are seeing the inner workings of something here. Time to connect the dots!
I hate connecting the dots. Whenever I do it, it doesn't matter what it's supposed to be, it always looks like a duck.
<><
Lisa, Shalom! You asked:
Do you think Blair sounds like a Catholic?
I think he sounds like a politician. I think he's trying to build a unified group of faiths, not as a "one-world religion" but as a political entity with common goals that the members can work towards despite serious conflicts on other issues. Just look at what those "Millennium Development Goals (MDGs)" are: They include halving extreme poverty, providing universal primary education and halting the spread of HIV/Aids. In other words, caring for the poor, making sure they have enough to eat and that their children become educated (so the children won't be so poor), and promoting sexual morality (through halting the spread of HIV/AIDS). These are goals all the religions mentioned in the article share. The means towards achieving those goals are different among the religions, but that's where negotiation (politics) comes in.
So, no, I don't think he sounds particularly Catholic; I don't think he sounds particularly "emergent"; I don't think he sounds like anything but a politician trying to apply political solutions to inter-faith problems.
<><
Syria US can buy our loyalty
Texan and Lightshine, Shalom! You both asked me about dates (the calendar kind).
Texan, there is about a three-week period where the 60th year of the formation of Israel and the 40th year of the Unification of Jerusalem overlap. That's from 10 May (although it's celebrated this year on 8 May due to Sabbath) until 2 June.
Lightshine, you asked about Jan. 25 1942. The simple answer is that this is in the middle of wartime, and weekends don't matter. Also, were we talking about Jan 25 when the decision is made to transport Jews there, or Feb 15, when the first Jews were killed?
For those of you coming in late, this has to do with the 70 years of Zechariah 1:7ff. (Zechariah 1:12 -- Then the angel of the Lord spoke out and said, "O LORD of hosts, how long will you be without mercy for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah that have felt your anger these seventy years?") If that is an event not covered by the 70 weeks of Daniel (which I suspect), then there are two possible events that would account for the time "without mercy for Jerusalem."
The first is Kristalnacht, the pogrom that is considered to be the beginning of the Holocaust. This happened on the night of 9 Nov 1938, which is 15 Cheshvan 5699 in the Hebrew calendar. 70 years after that is 15 Cheshvan 5769, which is on 13 Nov 2008.
The second date has to do with gassing Jews at Auschwitz. Here the most significant date is 15 Feb 1942, when the first transport of Jews arrives in the morning and all are killed and cremated by the end of the day. (The gas chambers had been tested with Russian prisoners earlier, but this was the first time Jews had been killed there.) The significance of this date is that 15 Feb 1942 is 28 Sh'vat 5702. The prophesy of Zechariah 1:7-21 occurred on 24 Sh'vat. If you assume a four-day period between the time the order is given to assemble the Jews and the time they arrive at the camp (order is given, notices are posted for the Jews to assemble for deportation, etc.), then this might work. 70 years after this date is 21 Feb 2012.
<><
Glen Beck/Rosenburg Transcript
Maybe this explains why Rosenburg appears nervous?
GENERAL DAVID PETRAEUS, COMMANDER, MULTINATIONAL FORCES IN IRAQ: Iran has fueled the violence, as I noted, in a particularly damaging way through its lethal support to the special groups.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BECK: But here`s where it gets worse. Earlier today on The Drudge Report I saw a story that Ahmadinejad has announced that he`s installing 6,000 new advanced centrifuges at his leading nuclear facility. For some reason, it seemed like those -- those really tersely written letters from the U.N., not working.
Joel Rosenberg is the founder of the Joshua Fund and author of a great new book I just finished about a week ago, "Dead Heat."
Hello, Joe. How are you, sir?
JOEL ROSENBERG, AUTHOR, "DEAD HEAT": I`m doing well, Glenn. How are you?
BECK: I`m good. I want to talk to you a little bit about, first, the centrifuges over in Iran. Is this more bluster from him? Because I should have started with this. Happy National Nuclear Day. That`s what it is in Iran. Is this just more bluster from him today?
ROSENBERG: I don`t think so. I think Iran is the most dangerous nation on the face of the planet right now. I think it`s the epicenter of evil. And I think that what you`ve got is a situation in which Iran is actually feverishly trying to build, buy or steal the nuclear weapons it needs to accomplish two objectives: to annihilate Israel, whom he calls the Little Satan, and to annihilate the United States, whom Ahmadinejad calls the Great Satan.
I`m in Jerusalem with 2,000 Christian leaders and we`re having a conference on epicenter. What are the dangers of this country, Israel faces? I think it`s existential. I think Iran is the most dangerous country on the planet, and its danger is getting worse. And I don`t think Washington fully gets it.
BECK: Well, I don`t think -- you know, Joel, you and I talked about a year ago on this very issue. And I have to tell you, I think there are those in Washington that do get it.
But I don`t think they have any power to do anything anymore. I mean, at the time, I thought that George Bush was going to take action against Iran before he left office. I no longer think that`s true. Because I don`t think he has the political clout to be able to pull it off, especially with that report that came out last year. But that leaves that in the hands of Israel, and they will do something.
ROSENBERG: I don`t know if they will, actually. I agree that the window of opportunity for the United States to take military action against Iran`s nuclear facility is rapidly closing. I mean, it`s almost inconceivable right now to imagine the United States launching a preemptive war against Iran in the middle of a presidential campaign. And then, of course, you`ll have a new administration. Who knows where that will go?
Israel, I don`t think that they`re -- I don`t think they`ll never say it. But I don`t think they`re capable of launching a massive attack. But they are expecting war to be coming.
BECK: You know what? You tell me, then, if they`re not -- if they`re not going to do something, what are the emergency drills all about?
ROSENBERG: Well, this -- for five days now, Israel is involved in a worst case scenario drill. How would it respond to a massive salvo of missiles, whether it`s from Lebanon, Syria, or Iran?
Israel is preparing for war. Syria is preparing for war. Iran is preparing for war. Lebanon is preparing for war. I think war is coming. Can I tell you when, Glenn? No, I can`t. But I`ve got to tell you, this is the most dangerous moment the Middle East has faced since the beginning of the 2003 war in Iraq.
BECK: I will tell you, Joel, your book, which is "Dead Heat," which is on this, I just finished, and it`s absolutely fantastic. I have to tell you, it is the first time that I`ve ever heard anyone explain to my satisfaction why, in the Book of Revelation, America does not play a role in the end days.
I think that you solved that problem and explained it quite plainly. I think you could have gone in another direction, which was economic meltdown, which would also explain it. But it`s some spooky stuff.
ROSENBERG: It is spooky. And the first line, of course, as you know, of the book, Glenn, and I say -- I pray to God this never comes true. The Bible doesn`t explain why the United States is not in end-times prophesy, but it isn`t.
"Dead Heat" is a fictional scenario. But it`s the worst-case scenario, in which we don`t really deal, ultimately, with the radical extremists in the world, and we get hit with a series of cataclysmic attacks the likes of which we`ve never seen before. I pray to God it`s fiction. But Iran wants it to be fact.
BECK: I know. Joel, thank you very much. Stay safe, my friend.
Now, where am I wrong? I don`t think that President Bush will act on Iran before leaving office. And that means Israel will. Joel says no. I think they will act. Agree or disagree? Go to CNN.com/Glenn right now and cast your vote.
Lisa, thanks for the post. I just finished watching Glenn Beck and I have to say, Joel needs to use more sunscreen.
<><
Lisa, here's another view on Tony Blair's talk at Westminster Cathedral. (SPUC = Society for the Protection of Unborn Children)
<><
From a Mat 24: perspective again; Pastor Terry Malone asks this question (below) of post-tribbers but it can equally be directed at the pre-wrath model due to the lateness of the rapture. Who will populate the Millennium? If Mat 24: is a rapture of Israel and gentiles then who is going to be producing Israeli babies? There might be an answer but I can’t think of a good one. It works fine, though, if this is God bringing scattered (four winds/ends of the earth) Jews back to Israel.
If Christian's who are alive today go through the tribulation period (not raptured before) then who will Christ rule over when He (Jesus) comes to reign for one-thousand years on earth (Millennium)? According to those who believe Christians will go through the tribulation period, if the rapture and the Second Coming occur at the end of the tribulation period, who will be left on the earth for Christians to reign over? You must remember that I Thessalonians 4:13-18 says that every Christian will be raptured who is on the earth. The Bible also says that everyone outside of Christians will take the mark and it's clear they will be executed at the Second Coming of the Lord (Matthew 25:31-32). With that said, I ask again, who will be left on the earth to enter into the Millennium once Christians are raptured (if they are raptured at the Second Coming)?
In answer to your question Mac as to who will populate the millennial kingdom? It is the remnant of Israel that will be protected in the wilderness for the second half of D’s 70th Week. This group is saved at the very end of D’s 70th Week. It is also the 144,000, the first fruits of this remnant. These two groups of Jews will not take the mark. They will not be in the Mt. 24 gathering of the elect/rapture because they are not yet saved when it occurs. The Mt. 24 gathering of the elect/rapture is said to occur at the end of the (great) tribulation. When does the (great) tribulation start? Just after the AofD. Will the (great) tribulation run the entire second half of D’s 70th Week? No. Jesus says it will be cut short or amputated for the sake of the elect. The great tribulation will not run for the entire second three and one half year period. Apparently there will be gentiles who also don’t take the mark and will also be saved after the Mt. 24 gathering of the elect/rapture. They are the sheep represented in the sheep and goat judgment in Mt. 25. They will also enter and populate the millennial kingdom. Post-trib does not recognize this “cutting short” of the great tribulation which Jesus talks about in Mt. 24:22. By not cutting short the great tribulation post-trib puts a timetable on the rapture which can be figured out by just counting seven years after the signing of the covenant. Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour. Prewrath recognizes this “cutting short” of the great tribulation. It will not run the entire second half of D’s 70th Week. At a day and hour known only by the Father, Jesus will return and gather the elect, the church, both Jews and gentiles in Christ, somewhere after the AofD but before the end of D’s 70th Week.
I guess the question remains if they haven't taken the mark, why haven't they been either executed or raptured? As for the gathering of the elect from the 4 cnrs, it's Jewishness is pretty conclusive to me from the OT scriptures quoted earlier and the Jews' own traditional expectations. There is a believing remnant in Israel but also many Jews that have been dispersed throughout the world to be brought back to Israel - which is what Mat 24 is all about.
"When does the (great) tribulation start? Just after the AofD. Will the (great) tribulation run the entire second half of D’s 70th Week? No. Jesus says it will be cut short or amputated for the sake of the elect."
Is that really what Jesus is saying?
"And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short."
Time for a new post.
Post a Comment