Wednesday, April 9, 2008
Col 3:1-4
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
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Good morning all,
This one's for the parents amoung us
This week's promise: God celebrates family
Has your family been a blessing?
The godly walk with integrity; blessed are their children after them.
Proverbs 20:7 NLT
A heritage of blessings
What better motivations exist for us to be people of integrity than that our children will be blessed for it! Parents who are godly, who live with integrity and truthfulness, are wonderful examples to their children. Granted, this does not always guarantee that children will turn out perfectly, but children will nevertheless receive a great blessing from having such parents.
So what does it mean to "walk with integrity"? It means that "walk the talk." In other words, plenty of people know the right thing to do, but when the right time comes, they don't do it. They know they should tell the truth, for example, but if telling the truth will hurt, they opt for a lie instead. Children learn best from models they see and hear, but if they learn to bend the truth whenever needed, they set themselves up for problems in life. But if they learn to follow God and walk their faith, then they will have been greatly blessed.
WISE WAYS Are you willing to walk with integrity in front of your children or those over whom you have influence? What kinds of blessings will they have from following your example?
Today, Lord, help me walk with integrity so as to be a good example to others.
Jim,
I like that John Smeaton-he's not going to let Blair get away with being a pro-choice Catholic.(among other things.)
The passage re: "cut short for the sake of the elect."
I always understood it as time has been cut short so that the elect(weather only the protected Jews or including saved Gentiles) would not be wiped off the face of the earth.
I would have never "read into it" that the actual 7 years would be shortened.
Why would these time periods be prophesied and then with this one verse an assumption is made that the 7 years are modified?
This seems like a prime example of trying to make the Bible fit into a particular theory. Because if you don't "assume" the 7 year modification then the logic in this theory doesn't hold up.
I guess this would be a good study in & of it's self.
I know the JW's are experts at it.
Lisa
Hi Nate,
MEMRI has an article today about a speech that Libya's Qadhafi gave during the Arab summit. He basically called out the Arab states on their hatred for each other:
"We are the enemies of one another, I'm sad to say. We all hate one another, we deceive one another, we gloat at the misfortune of one another, and we conspire against one another. Our intelligence agencies conspire against one another, instead of defending us against the enemy. We are the enemies of one another, and an Arab's enemy is another Arab's friend. If only we used such ferocity against the enemy."
I thought it was an interesting statement in light of the verse you posted about yesterday.
Ezekiel 38:21
"I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains," declares the Lord GOD. "Every man's sword will be against his brother."
Read the full article Here
Blessings,
Jen
Here is a verse to ponder:
Proverbs 27:17
"As iron sharpens iron,so one man sharpens another."
or
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
We do alot of sharpening around here, but what a blessing it is!!
Lisa
True, Lisa. Some of these issues, however, have been ongoing for centuries and I doubt we will be able to resolve them here!
(Not to mention we've discussed and debated many of these same issues again and again :)
I doubt any of us have every doctrine down exactly right. There must be things that I think are accurate that are not accuate.
I think we have to be cautious about being too black and white on some of these issues.
The impt thing is that we accept Jesus Christ's as our Savior thru His completed work on the cross for the forgiveness of not just our sins, but our sinful nature.
'This is a gift from God and not a result of works, that no man should boast.' (In ephesians or galatians I think).
I love hearing about all of the current events in light of biblical prophecy from you all!
There sure does seem to be a LOT going on!
I had no idea Joel was on Glenn Beck last night!
Thank you for sending the transcript, Lisa.
<><
Donna said:
(Not to mention we've discussed and debated many of these same issues again and again :)
And, if we need to discuss them again & again, further, to help someone come to a better understanding - then we shall.
Lisa, Mac,
The 70th Week is alloted a time span of 2520 days, two periods of 1260 days. It begins with the signing of the covenant. Jesus refers to the first 1260 days as beginning birth pangs. At the 1260 day mark, the AofD occurs. He then says the great tribulation begins, the persecution against the elect. We are now into the second 1260 days. The number of days/1260 are not cut short. Jesus says the days of great tribulation against the elect are cut short. The persecution will not run 1260 days. Antichrist will remain in power for the entire second 1260 days but he will not have access to persecute the elect the entire 1260 day period. The elect will be gathered before the end of the 1260 days, at a day and hour known only by the Father. Does that make sense?
Yes, Alesia, I guess you are right...at least to a certain extent....and as long as it does not take away from what's really important.
lisa;
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
We do alot of sharpening around here, but what a blessing it is!!
I agree!! Though some of the subject matter may be unpleasant or difficult, I have learned much and also have many questions. I refrain from participating on some topics though, but I am still learning from them. You are all a real blessing, thanks to all!!!
God bless!
Donna,
I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to sound so snippy/salty.
Forgive me?
Hi Mac,
Don’t forget that Mark wrote to a gentile audience. Both Jews and gentiles are in mind concerning the gathering of the elect. Luke wrote to a Greek, Theophilus. All three together complete the picture that the gathering will include both Jew and gentile.
Can you explain how Mt. 24 is a reference to Jews being brought back to Israel?
Of course, Alesia!
And obviously I am only commenting on things from my perspective.
I have spent a ton of time debating, etc., just as everyone else has! Typcially, I enjoy it and find it very helpful, as well....so it is a good thing.
Personally, I just need to keep in in perspective and not loose total sight of the impt things. That's all.
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Overcomer,
"Antichrist will remain in power for the entire second 1260 days but he will not have access to persecute the elect the entire 1260 day period. The elect will be gathered before the end of the 1260 days, at a day and hour known only by the Father. Does that make sense?"
That makes more sense. So what your saying is that the 7 yr time period is not shortened but the actual amount of time the "elect" are on earth is shortened.
OK, I went back into Revelation and started reading it backwards.(Trying to clear my mind of all the thoughts and preconceived ideas swirling around-difficult I know)
I get to the bowl Judgments and find that the Elect or any "saved" people are not at all mentioned.
So one would conclude that they are not meant for judgment and are protected or removed.
Then you see Revelation 14:14
There are two reapings.The first which seems like it's Jesus reaping a harvest.(by his description) "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
Then another "angel" reaps "The clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe."These are thrown into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Then forward right before the Bowl Judgments. Rev 15:2
And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.
Doesn't this seem like the time period your speaking about? That these may be the people of the "harvest" Jesus reaps above? The final "rapture" of believers?
This does happen before "the actual
end" of the Tribulation. Of course we don't know how much time/days are involved.
I'm just going to stop here @ this point.
I think your assessment is correct that the remaining believers will be raptured right before the end of the Tribulation.
If the pre-trib people believe that there is only one Rapture and it is at the beginning of the Tribulation-then we see here that is false.
So, it looks to me that both are correct and both are wrong.
(Is that gray enough for you? See I'm usually black and white but I can turn gray on occasion)
There is more than one rapture.
That is why each view makes sense when it's looked at individually.
Lisa
From Dr. Fruchtenbaum's web site www.ariel.org "The Seventy Sevens of Daniel". You can access the whole topic free of charge at this site by clicking on "Fruit" and then scroll until you see that title in Blue and underlined. It is free and is released for freedom in sharing.
THE 70TH SEVEN
The third subdivision of the seventy sevens is the last seven, the 70th seven, and is dealt with in verse 27. This last seven, a total of seven years, is the Great Tribulation. In this verse, these seven years are subdivided into two equal halves of three-and-one-half years each.
The verse states he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week (or seven). This is the starting point of the 70th seven: when he makes a firm covenant. The pronoun he in verse 27 goes back to its nearest antecedent, which is the prince that shall come in verse 26; the he who makes a covenant in verse 27 is one and the same person, better known in Christian circles as the Antichrist. The prince that shall come, or the Antichrist, will make a firm covenant. He will make it firm; he will make it strong. The starting point of the 70th seven of Daniel, the last seven, is still in the future, and the starting point of the Great Tribulation is the signing of a seven-year covenant. It will not be the Rapture that will begin the Tribulation. The Rapture will come sometime before the Tribulation starts. It may come just before; it may come 10, 20, 30 years or more before the Tribulation starts. While the Bible teaches that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation, it never says that the Rapture begins the Tribulation. Rather, the event that begins the Tribulation is the signing of the seven-year covenant.
Furthermore, it says that the covenant is made with many, not with all but with many. The Hebrew text uses a definite article meaning “the many,” and “the many” are the leadership of Israel empowered to sign covenants of this nature.
The verse goes on to state that in the middle of the seven, he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. In the middle of the 70th seven, that is, after the first three-and-one-half years, the covenant will be broken. When it is broken, he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. There is going to be a forced cessation of the sacrificial system, a point also made in Revelation 11:1-2.
Following the breakdown of the covenant and the cessation of the sacrificial system, the next line states, upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate. What is the wing of abominations? The word wing refers to the pinnacle of the Temple, and it is a Hebrew word that means “an overspreading influence.” It specifically refers to the worship of the Antichrist, when the Antichrist declares himself to be the one true god (II Thess. 2:3-4). The word abomination in Hebrew refers to an image or idol, meaning that an image or idol of the Antichrist will be set up in the Temple compound on the pinnacle of the Temple itself. This is also spoken of in Daniel 12:11 and Matthew 24:15, with the image itself seen in Revelation 13:14-15.
Upon the wing of abominations, upon the overspreading influence of idol worship shall come one that maketh desolate. The one that maketh desolate is the Antichrist, who will cause desolations to fall upon the Jewish people.
The verse then states even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate. The phrase even unto the full end is translated from the Hebrew word that means “to finish or complete.” To the end, to the finish, to the completion of the 70th seven these things, these desolations, are determined. The word determined means to be decreed beforehand, because the events spelled out in Daniel 9:27 were already prophesied and decreed long before the Tribulation as seen in Isaiah 10:23 and 28:22. The phrase also means that the Tribulation will not go a single day beyond its predetermined duration. The same point is made in Matthew 24:22, where we read, And except those days be shortened, or more literally, “except those days had been cut short,” no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. This reveals not that the Tribulation will last less than seven years, but rather that it will not be allowed to last a single day beyond its allotted seven years.
The last phrase is shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate. The word translated desolate can also be translated as “a desolator.” If taken as “desolate,” it refers to the Jewish people during the second half of the Tribulation. If taken as a “desolator,” it refers to the Antichrist and his destruction at the Second Coming on the very last day of the 70th seven.
Copyright © 2005, Ariel Ministries. All Rights Reserved.
Lisa:
”So what your saying is that the 7 yr time period is not shortened but the actual amount of time the "elect" are on earth is shortened.”
That’s exactly what I understand Mt. 24 to be saying.
Look at Daniel 7:25: “And he (Antichrist) will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.”
He is given authority for 3 ½ years – or 1260 days.
The AofD starts at the mid point of the week, or day 1261 of 2520. This is when AC reveals himself and he begins his reign of terror for 3 ½ years. “Either worship me, or die.” The great tribulation/persecution against the elect now begins. I’d like to suggest that you read through Rev. 12. Here you will get more pieces to the puzzle. In verse 6 the woman (Israel) flees to the wilderness to the place God has prepared. Look at how many days, for 1260!! So, a remnant of Israel is now protected in the wilderness. Verse 17 says that the dragon (Satan) was enraged with the woman (Israel). Remember, she is protected now. Verse 17 says that the dragon (Satan) then goes off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Who hold to the testimony of Jesus? Not unbelieving Jews but Christians, the elect! It is logical to conclude that the elect include both believing Jews and gentiles. Rev. 13:7 says: “It was given to him (the beast/AC) to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over EVERY TRIBE AND PEOPLE AND TONGUE AND NATION was given to him. A remnant of Israel is protected in the wilderness. He is now going to go after every believer, all over the world, Jew and gentile alike.
Back to Mt. 24. After the AofD great tribulation begins against the elect. What does verse 22 say? “And unless those days had been cut short, what days?” Days of great tribulation! Unless those days of tribulation had been cut short, the Greek word means “amputated”, no life would have been saved; “but for the sake of the elect those days (of great tribulation) shall be cut short”. So, the allotted 1260 days are not cut short, let’s say to 1200, but the days of tribulation against the elect are cut short. AC still gets to reign his entire 1260 but he doesn’t get to persecute the elect the whole time.
What cuts the days of tribulation short? V. 29 Immediately after the tribulation the sun goes dark, etc. v. 30…The Son of Man/Jesus is seen coming in the clouds with power and great glory.
What happens next in v. 31? The elect are gathered!!! The targets of the AC’s persecution are removed! Mark tells us (he’s writing to gentiles remember) that the gathering is from the four corners of the earth. Does the elect include Israel that is protected in the wilderness? No, because in Rev. 12:6 they are there for 1260 days. They are not gathered because they are not saved yet. (They will be the ones who populate the kingdom.)
So just who are the elect? I see the elect as none other than the church, all those Jews and gentile believers from the four corners of the earth! (Mark references the earth remember.)
“OK, I went back into Revelation and started reading it backwards.(Trying to clear my mind of all the thoughts and preconceived ideas swirling around-difficult I know)”
Good girl!!!! Let Scripture be the final authority, not the preconceived ideas!!
Is there more than one rapture or gathering?
Can both be right and both be wrong? I don't think so. There are no contradictions in the Word of God. We must keep digging until we find the Truth. If there is contradiction, we haven't found Truth yet.
I’m going to stop here Lisa because this is already pretty long. I will address Rev. 14 in a later post and about your statement that the elect are not meant for judgment and are protected or removed.
Wilma, You know I love you!
Dr. F states: "The starting point of the 70th seven of Daniel, the last seven, is still in the future, and the starting point of the Great Tribulation is the signing of a seven-year covenant."
According to Mt. 24:21 the starting point of the great tribulation is right after the AofD, not at the signing of the covenant.
(You know I love you!)
Kathy
Grany, Shalom! I'm glad to see you're still posting. Has the blizzard hit you yet?
(A dangerous severe weather event taking shape)
Let's hope it's the last of the season.
<><
Shalom, all! I know the ACLU is not popular around here, but you have GOT to turn up your speakers and watch this (You'll need to have Flash installed):
Ordering pizza in 2020
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Donna,
I have a sense that my blunt commentary rubs you the wrong way at times.
My husband would agree with you 100%.
I'm certain if I keep sticking my neck out that it's eventually going to be lopped off.
But better here than in the Tribulation- (I know bad joke!)
Seriously though, My intellectual curiosity gets the best of me. I'm an avid reader and really enjoy these discussions. Even if we go in circles.
I'm really not trying to prove "My" point. I am certainly not a genius or road scolar. If I had better memory retention I could probably debate w/the best of them-but I don't. So I figure if I work through things enough times-then maybe (w/the help of the Holy Spirit) the truth may present it's self.
(ie:I can't tell you how many times I've read Revelation and still don't have it memorized)
I am very concerned with knowing the truths in the Bible.We know that some of these "mysteries" are hidden until the appointed times.
Is now the appointed time? It has been for some prophesys.
I think many here find that intriguing. That's why we love to research the current events in light of Bible prophesies.
And then- we go back down the roads of previous theological discussions.
It may seem redundant to some.But personally I may not have been receptive to change a personal theological view on a matter at one point in time. But-then later down the road when the time was right-something struck me and I did change my view.
So nothing I say is the "be all end all to me." It's what I have come up with via the "Lisa Biblical reasoning" route but in no uncertain terms do I think I have all the answers.
I'm sure we all ask the same Holy Sprit to guide us in truth and spirit yet we still have different theological view points. And until we either go to meet our Savior or he comes for us-then I'm afraid there will always be different opinions.
But meanwhile as we challenge one another-I have to admit that the fruits of the spirit are evident in the cave.
Look at many of the reactions of the "Challanged". The responses are typically given in a truthfull, heartfelt way & with love, grace and humility.
Where else do we go in the world with differing view points and can discuss things in such manner?
The diversity here can't be beat.We are all striving toward the same goal (Jesus Christ) yet we all bring individual talents into these discussions.
So,I've rambled on long enough.
Back to the drawing board.
Lisa
Lisa...your blunt comments in no way shape or form rub me the wrong way! As a matter of fact, I love blunt people.
I have been known on these blogs and in life in general to be very blunt myself!
I haven't even read the rest of your message...but had to respond to that comment.
(ANd even if I was rubbed the wrong way, so what. I know I have rubbed people the wrong way at times, too.)
Not to worry! Carry on!!
<><
Lisa, there is a "taking away" or "gathering together" which is referred to as the rapture. The part that takes place during the tribulation is the resurrection of the believers after the tribulation begins and the killing starts.
I refer you to Dr. Fruchtenbaum simply because his teaching is doctrinally sound and based on the original Hebrew/Chaldean and Greek Aramic language. AMG Publishers have some excellent resource study materials that backup what Dr. Fruchtenbaum teaches. "The Complete Word Study" of both the Old Testament and the New Testament and a "Complete Word Study Dictionary" for both, each Testament has these books. They are well worth the money are not tied into any one theology of Eschatology events.
So many of these topics are covered on the internet and Alesia and Mac both have excellent resources to aid you in dividing the Word of God rightly. All things in the Bible are in need of this discernment and there are many events that do not involve the church. For instance, did the church take part in refusing to set aside the years of Jubilee? Did the church take part in not recognizing the Sabbatical years? Did we take part in not recognizing the Savior, Son of God that was sent to all mankind? Jesus is our Savior but he was the Messiah and they refused to accept him as such.
Do you normally pay for things that do not belong to you? The tribulation DOES NOT BELONG TO THE BELIEVERS. No matter what scripture anyone throws at you trying to prove otherwise, consider the whole picture of Christ's Second Physical Return To This Earth. When he comes, who is he bringing with him? Who else is riding on those white horses when he comes with his army?
Discern the events and the times. The Jews were taken into captivity because they did not know the seasons and times. We are told to
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Timothy 2:15).
In order to come to the knowledge of the Truth, we must always follow the Biblically outlined method of study--" straightly cutting" or "rightly dividing" the Word of God.
I know the feeling of frustration in trying to rightly divide the word but one of the easiest methods is like John stated a few topics ago. There is a difference in what Age is being address, such as Jews, Gentiles or Nations, and church. The church age will come to a close when the rapture takes place; the Times of the Gentiles will be until the battle of Armageddon and the times of the Jews will begin again after the church age is completed. The Jews will be dealt with during the tribulation and not the church.
My thoughts, yes! But that only came from years and years of study and elimination processes. The time is too short and the best teacher is the author of it all. The Holy Spirit at the direction of Abba Father. Ask Him! He is always ready to supply all of your needs.
Grany
Kathy, you know I don't agree with your take on the Trib and pre-wrath and I often wonder what in the world you are doing trying to fit the church into the time that the Jews will be dealt with for their rebellion. So, I firmly tell you, that I will never agree with your take on the rapture, the tribulation or the Age of Church. We are coming from different theology and you know it. I am not going to argue with you because all it will do is sow discord, something else you know. I am not even going to tell you that we will have to agree to disagree. Where in the Political Correctness was that ever dug up?
Grany
interesting discussion today.
Grany good to see you out on the blogs
Jim
I giggled when I read your comment about Joel and sunscreen because I had the same thought
joel has a new post
Donna,
As a matter of fact, I love blunt people.
So does that mean you really, really, REALLY love me?
mwuahahahahahahah.
Grany! I'm so glad to "see" you, I've missed you so!!
Now, where has Lori gone off to?
What is the Purpose of the Great Tribulation?
AnswerThere are three main purposes for the Great Tribulation. The first of these purposes is to make an end of wickedness and wicked ones. "The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently. The earth shall stagger like a drunken man, and shall sway to and fro like a hammock; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it, and it shall fall, and not rise again." (Isaiah 24:19-20) The closing words of this verse state that the basic reason for the judgments of the Tribulation is that the transgression worldwide shall fall and not rise again. Its purpose is to make an end of wickedness.
The second purpose of the Tribulation is to bring about a worldwide revival. This purpose is given and fulfilled in Revelation 7:1-17. In this passage, John states that 12,000 Jews will be selected from each of the Twelve Tribes, adding up to a total of 144,000 Jews. It is by means of these Jewish evangelists that God will bring about the worldwide revival and accomplish another goal of the Tribulation.
The third purpose of the Tribulation is to break the power or the stubborn will of the Jewish nation. The Tribulation will continue and will not end until this happens. So from this, the third purpose of the Tribulation can be deduced: God intends to break the power of the holy people in order to bring about a national regeneration. The means by which God will perform this is given in Ezekiel 20:33-38. In this passage, Ezekiel draws a simile with the Exodus. After God gathers the Jews from around the world, He will enter into a period of judgment (the Tribulation) with them. The rebels among the Jewish people will be purged out by this judgment. Only then will the whole new nation, a regenerate nation, be allowed to enter the Promised Land under King Messiah.
For more on this read "Footsteps of the Messiah: A Study of the Sequence of Prophetic Events."
Jim, ain't gonna snow no more, no more. All we ever get out of it is rain and wind but it doesn't get any worse than that. Thank you Abba Father.
Our kitty kat crawled into the pedal box of our Thomas Organ yesterday morning because of the super charge in the air in our area. She went to sleep in there and we had a terrible time getting her out. Finally, after we wore out our patience and self, went to have a snack, out she popped no worse for the ordeal. She senses what is in the air before any forecasters do. Smart kitty!
Right now it is 57 F. degrees and the sun is trying to shine. Tomorrow it is supposed to be in the higher 70's. That's the weather forecast from Okieland.
Come to the land of sunshine and cowboys; sit awhile and take a load off of your feet and breath fresh air for a change.
Grany
Alesia, I didn't see your comment and I apologize for it. I have had you on my heart for a whole week and even went to your blog to leave you a note. Then I started reading your comments and forgot what I was there for. I am very impressed with your wonderful site and I encourage you in your pursuits to KNOW THAT YOU KNOW THAT YOU KNOW!
I don't want to come across as a meanie but I have always been a very direct person. My trying to beat around a bush about anything only confuses everyone. I hope you all aren't put off by it but like Donna and Lisa said, it is just me.
I have to tell you that your posting the inspirational articles are very comforting to me and I want to thank you for it. This one is especially precious to me as Proverbs 20:7 was one of the very first memory quotes that I began my Christian life walk with. It was always a challenge, a guide to live by and a scale to weigh what I stood for. It still is. Being a parent doesn't end when the little chickies fly from the nest either.
Sometimes it is best for me to just remain silent because I know for a fact that what I think about things apart from the Bible doesn't really matter anymore. Times might change but life with Christ does not.
You keep up the great work and keep your heart before the Lord so he can guide you and keep you safe.
Love and best Blessings from God,
Wilma
Of course I love you, Alesia!
I hope you love me, too!
:)
BTW, I mostly was referring to the issue of tongues and the "baptism of the Spirit", for what that's worth!
I've expressed my thoughts on all of this in the past (whihc are in line with mac's post from the other day) for what that's worth.
<><
Wilma,
~sniff, sniff~
My eyes are leaking all over the place!
I love ya, woman!
ooops & you too Donna!
Wilma,
I’m here as a student, trying to understand the Word. And also for logical, biblical discussion. That is the true spirit where truth can be found. I don’t have all the answers. I will be the first to admit that. If I bring up a point with someone, it is not to rile or offend. It’s an invitation to go on that search for truth together.
When I compare scripture with scripture, removing all the contradictions, I come up with the church being in the great tribulation. I also see the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 for Israel even with the church remaining inside of Daniel’s 70th Week for a portion of that Week.
I’m thankful to have you as a sister in Christ,
Kathy
Wilma...I had to laugh when I read your message at 1:06 (no offense to you, Kathy).
You are just too funny!
We all love you so much!
xoxo
Please pray! Tornado outbreak for all of I-40 going East from OK City. Seven main storm cells forming rapidly.
Please Pray!
Our prayers are with you Wilma and with all folks in the tornado's path.
May God take care of you all, in Jesus name we pray, amen!
Marantha! We hope and pray You come soon!
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Wilma,
Praying now for all those in the storm's path.
Blessings,
Jen
Wow. If you go to the National Weather Service national map, you can see the cells moving.
My prayers are with those people.
(BTW -- the link above goes to the loop version of the map so you can see the movement of the storms.)
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Thanks for sending that link, Jim. It looks scarey.
My prayers are with them all, too.
What a world!
That link is amazing!
Soooo praying for you Wilma!
Grace
Ok...it's 8:48 CST. Those of you in Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri and Kansas need to check it with us.
"The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make His face to shine upon you and give you peace." (Mary's interpretation; I didn't go look this verse up for accuracy word for word.)
Blessings! (Mary)
Oops...need to check in with us.
So many people are missing.
Jeri, Marge, boroeagle,...so many others... we miss you and need you all! Come back!
I am still here! House is still here and Jim is still thanking God for our safety. We have more storms forming and they tell us that these will continue throughtout the night. Will you all come into agreement with me that God will breath on them and cause them to scatter without harming anyone further?
I thank you all for your precious prayers and knowing you were all praying took the fear out and put the praise in and I am forever grateful. I did plead the Blood of Jesus in addition and knowing that this is Wednesday night and most of the churches here still have regular services, I knew all of the Full Gospel and Assembly of God churches would be pleading the blood also. Even have a few Baptist churches who believe in it.
Hallelujah! Oh, Lord, come quickly!
Grany
This is an interesting speech by the #2 foreign policy chief for the EU - (she is effectively Solana's mouthpiece on foreign relations)
Note the following extract:
1) Implementing the Lisbon Reform Treaty (the new EU Constitution in all but name)
The major innovations the Treaty introduced in the field of foreign policy and external relations are well known – a new High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (i.e. Javier Solana), who will also be "double-hatted" as a Vice-President of the European Commission; a President of the European Council who will be the external face of the EU on his or her level; and a new External Action Service (IMPORTANT: read military special action force under the control of the EU Foreign Minister = Solana) to serve their needs and those of the Commission’s President.
(emphasis, my comments in italics)
EU Says ENP Is Working, Seeks to Strengthen Relationship With Israel
See also the following article, again showing the growing connections between EU Foreign Policy and the UN's Alliance of Civilizations (AoC):
Solana Meets on the AoC (note: official Europa/EU document in PDF file)
John
overcomer;
I have a question concerning the passage in Rev 3:10.
Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
Since you believe "kept from the hour of trial" means protected during the trib, (correct me if I am wrong) how do you view God's protection during this time? How will God protect the believers entering the trib? I have not seen any teaching on this and was wondering what pre-wrath teaches on this. Do you expect most Christians to be killed during this period? It is one thing I didn't see addressed and really was wondering. Thanks.
God Bless!
Joel has a new post...
John
Grany, how heart warming to see you are fine. We will pray as you have asked us to!
John, thank you for keeping us posted on Javier Solana. A very interesting person to follow.
I might add that the Lisbon Reform Treaty evolved from the Treaty of Rome....if my memory serves me correctly of the exact title.
Either way, the whole EU is heading towards soon becoming a super state according to the new rules the Lisbon Treaty describes.
Very, very interesting stuff!
Great Grany,
What does "plead the blood" mean?
I think we missed the major storm cells in TN on this one but next time I may want to "plead the blood" when the next Tornardo system comes along.
Also, I shouldn't have included the"resurrection of believers" under a "rapture" defination. What I was trying to say is that the believers will be removed at least twice. Once by the "Rapture" and another by the "resurrection" of believers.
So correct me if I'm wrong. Pre-trib would consist of two "removal" events. One pre-Trib rapture and one "ressurection of believers."
Some even think there will be a Pre-Trib removal, A mid-trib removal, and a Pre-wrath removal of believers. (I'm calling it a removal as to not get the specific "titles" mixed up.)
I don't know enough about the Mid-point view to comment on that.
So it seems to me, since there is more than one "removal" of believers-(at least in what I find to be true) some of the Bible passages get mis-intreperted as to which one refers to what event.
Donna,
We all try to work w/the "no contraditions" in the Bible as we seek out the truth in scripture.
And quite frankly I dont' see any contradictions in the Pre-Trib view.
And you don't see any contradictions the Pre-Wrath view either.
As gt hints in Rev 3:10- A Pre-Wrath view contradicts this passage.
So how does the Pre-Wrath view explain Rev 3:10 away?
I see things very literally and cant' just ignore :
"I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."
The only thing I can come up with is that Pre-wrath considers "The Hour of Trial" to be only the Bowl Judgments.
Is that correct?
Lisa
Hi Lisa...I think your last comment re: pre-wrath may have been meant for Kathy..as I am pre- trib.
<><
Lisa,
I've had
this site bookmarked for a while, it has a pretty good background on Pleading the blood of Jesus.
Mike
Sorry Donna,
Your right.
Lisa
No need to apologize, Lisa, I just wanted to clarify.
I've been a pre-tribber for over 30years....and am assuming will always remain so!
I do have some pan trib in me, too!
:)
Shalom, all! I was wondering where everyone was. I figured everyone was busy watching the Epicenter Conference.
Glad everyone made it through the weather. Here's praying for a leader who, if not Spirit-filled, at least will work to get America back on the good side of the Lord!
Shalom, all! I ran across this article on Yahoo -- thought you might be interested in what might happen in even a "limited" nuclear exchange:
Local nuke war would cause world havoc
<><
gt/Lisa:
There are two schools of thought within prewrath on what kept from the hour of trial means. “Kept from” can be translated as keep out or as guarded within the sphere of danger. All in prewrath understand scripture to say that the church will go through the great tribulation. Some in prewrath view the hour of trial as the great tribulation, some as the day of the Lord’s wrath. All in prewrath view these as two different and distinct periods of time within D’s 70th Week, and that they don’t overlap each other. God has promised His own that they will not face His wrath. (1 Th. 5:9) Prewrath understands the great tribulation to be Satan’s wrath, based on Rev. 12:12 and it begins after the AofD. (Jesus said in Jn. 16:33 that in the world you have tribulation.) The great tribulation, Satan’s wrath against Israel and the elect, is cut short by the Lord’s parousia/coming and gathering of the elect, and then the day of the Lord’s wrath falls, the trumpets and bowls (hail and fire mixed with blood, the 100 pound hail stones, turning water into blood, horrible and painful disease when you cry out for death but can’t find it), on the remainder of D’s 70th Week, culminating at Armageddon. God’s protection during the time of the great tribulation simply means you will not face death at the hands of AC. Based on what Mt. 24:21-22/Mk. 13:19-20 says, there will be many, many killed. When Jesus warns to not believe those who would tell you that Jesus is in “the wilderness” or “in the inner rooms” and to not go forth, that indicates when you flee, go into hiding. Mt. 24:25/Mk. 13:23 Jesus says, “I have told you in advance.” The faithful church will have heeded Christ’s warnings to prepare. They will be protected within the sphere of danger. I Th. 4:15 says: “…that we who are alive and remain until the parousia/coming of the Lord…” The word “remain” can also be translated as “survive”. The dead in Christ shall rise first and then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with the dead in Christ. I understand the Mt. 24 gathering of the elect at the Lord’s coming and the catching up of the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain at the Lord’s coming in 1 Th. 4 as the same event, but from a different perspective. In 1 Cor. 15:23 Paul speaks of the resurrection of “those who are Christ’s at His parousia/coming.” I see the resurrection and rapture as one event, falling immediately after the great tribulation, at the Lord’s parousia/coming.
Glad to hear you are ok Wilma.
lisa and others;
Concerning Revelation, it is my understanding that the first part of the book concerns the Church. I think this is evident. The out line of the book is given in Rev 1:19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." The rest of the book has many references to other OT texts, to begin to understand it one must look at these references and what they refer to. I am by no means an authority and this is my understanding.
Concerning Rev 14:14-20 this has reference to Joel 3:12-16 and also to Rev 19:12-21. These references seem to point to the very end of the trib and seem to connect Rev 14to this time. I think these points have to be considered to glean the meaning of Rev 14:14-20. I know I get into a great deal of difficulty when I assign a meaning to a text with out comparing to other text for the true meaning. The Bible interprets itself, and Rev is a difficult book!
God Bless!
overcomer;
Thank you for the explanation of your view. You said, "Jesus said in Jn. 16:33 that in the world you have tribulation." I can't find a way to reconcile this passage with "the tribulation" though.
Also;
"God’s protection during the time of the great tribulation simply means you will not face death at the hands of AC. Based on what Mt. 24:21-22/Mk. 13:19-20 says, there will be many, many killed. When Jesus warns to not believe those who would tell you that Jesus is in “the wilderness” or “in the inner rooms” and to not go forth, that indicates when you flee, go into hiding. Mt. 24:25/Mk. 13:23 Jesus says, “I have told you in advance.” The faithful church will have heeded Christ’s warnings to prepare. They will be protected within the sphere of danger."
If we will not face death at the hands of AC, then who are the many killed?
God Bless!
Mike,
That link certainly is an eye opener for me.
I've felt His presence & pray for protection but now I feel He's leading me in knowledge on how to reach a more intimate level.
I think that some in the Church know these things but so far I have not found it taught to the general congregation.
Lisa
gt:
Those who are unprepared. I think prepared ones will be martyred as well, not because of unpreparation, but because they place themselves in danger to help others.
I do see the possibility that the hour of trial is referring to the day of the Lord's wrath. All the faithful are assured to be kept from that. I'm not set in stone on the hour of trial being the great tribulation. I see how it could go both ways.
Revelation is a difficult book but when I put everything under the prewrath framework it makes a whole lot more sense to me. Do you view the book as chronological? I do, but with some portions backing up in focus and giving greater detail, such as 12-14, 17 and 18 as well.
Good morning all and thank God for his tender and loving mercies to us all!
We had a wild night last night but what a glorious revelation this morning. I had over 100 E-Mails from
friends and loved family all checking in with me to let me know they came through the storms that affected all of us greatly and keeping track of Grany. Well, I am just now checking into the Cave and read the request for explaining how to plead the Blood of Jesus and then just as I started to respond I saw the link that Mike put up on the comments and I just wanted to thank Mike (TexanforChrist) for doing that.
Lisa, there are Christians who really believe that all we have to do is stand in the authority of the believer and in Jesus Christ name we can turn away evil. He overcame all evil for us and he told us that he was going to go to be with the Father and in a few short days, as they stayed in Jerusalem and waited, the Father would send His Holy Spirit to indwell them. After that they would all of the miracles that he did because of the power and Authority of the Holy Spirit that would fill them. NOW, I know I am paraphrasing this but pleading the blood of Jesus is laying claim to the authority and power of Jesus in destroying and stopping the works of the enemy in our domains and situations coming at us.
Pleading the Blood is very well explained in the link that Mike listed. It goes way back to Passover in Egypt when the Israelites took the blood of a lamb and splattered it on the door posts of their dwelling. This blood was a visual sign to the angels that GOD sent to destroy the first born of everything that the Egyptians had. If the blood wasn't there, then the angels would kill the firstborn. Jesus became that Passover Lamb that was slain before the foundations of the earth. It is His Blood that he took to the mercy seat in heaven to make a total and final payment for the original sin of Adam and Eve but also, all of the worlds' sins after that. Even the sin of the Jews.
So pleading the blood is actually testifying that we are covered by the sacrifice of Jesus death on the cross and no longer under the curse of the world.
Last night after I posted my last comment, another bigger storm system developed and just kept developing. The winds were horrible and I thought of Mac in Melbourne. The rain just kept coming and we even had some hail but the hail was about the size of acorns and didn't do any damage. It really isn't unusual for us to have lime sized hail this time of the year and we were greatly relieved when that didn't develop with all of the rest of the mess.
This area is pretty flat in the town we live in but there are big hills surrounding us and the water off of those hills soon fills our creeks and ditches. Overflow is a common problem too but it didn't happen last night for any length of time. But the really amazing thing was seen this morning.
All night long, at 20 minute intervals, the tornado sirens would scream their fear warnings and our precious Kitty Kat would jump right smack dab in the middle of us. I decided to sleep on the soft and she came out to the living room with me. Normally she will get under the sofa, or in the organ pedal box but last night she was my second skin. Those sirens are very loud and there wasn't a whole lot of sleep going on.
We got up this morning just dreading to look outside and see wonderful old trees uprooted and houses destroyed in one way or another. Instead, there was only one tree limb down at our next door neighbors house and it wasn't very big. That tree has had a terrible existance since the day my husband planted it in 1976. His crew built the house and he planted the tree but it was such a runt. Then when the bricks were delivered, they bumped that little thing and we had to redo the roots. That fall a terrible ice storm hit and it was a silver skinny little ice icicle. Now there are only five limbs and they don't look very healthy to say the least. But there is no further damage to anything.
Good news and good reports from everyone and we know that it was God and not man who did it. What was meant for destruction has been turned into Glory for God.
Yeah, and I was right about the churches here pleading the blood of Jesus. They have checked in with me and said, "you know we joined you and the others in pleading the blood of Jesus last night".
Oh, I love the Lord with every fiber of my being and I only want to live out the rest of this life giving him all of the Glory and praise that this body can possibly give. I was never a nasty person as far as habits but I so very much needed my Savior and He changed my life forever and ever. I am eternally grateful and committed to him and His Word. In fact, I am jealous for his word.
Lover you all, and I truly, truly thank you for your prayers and care.
Grany
gt:
What I am confident on is that Scripture clearly delineates between the great tribulation and the day of the Lord. The DOTL does not begin at the signing of the covenant. The day of the Lord cannot begin before the opening of the 6th seal and the sixth seal is not opened until sometime of the AofD.
...that should be sometime "after" the AofD.
I meant Love you all instead of "Lover you all, and I truly, truly thank you for your prayers and care." That kitty Kat really affects my spelling. First it was a the little Green Alien and now it is the kat.
Grany
That little green alien was after us both. I really am glad you are safe Wilma.
Love from Kathy
gt: One more thought than I'll be away from my computer for the rest of the day. Jesus said in Mt. 24:9: "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name." Jesus is definitely referring to His faithful ones. The word "therefore" in v. 15 points back to what He was talking about in v. 9 and the surrounding verses. Jesus says in verse 21 that the tribulation is going to be great, the worst ever to come upon the earth. The safest place to be is "in Christ". That is how you are an "overcomer". Rev. 12:11: "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death." All are overcomers whether they are the dead in Christ or those who are alive and remain at His coming.
GT,
These particular harvests in Rev 14-have me stumped.
It's the first harvest I'm still trying to find out what it would refer to as harvesting. The 2nd harvest-why would this be a different "harvester".
They seem to be two seperate events. The one Jesus reaps (1st harvest) and the "grapes of wrath" an angel reaps.
If something is reaped-does it always mean it's a judgment?
Why does it give a distinction of Jesus being the 1st harvest reaper but the 2nd grape wrath reaper does not seem to be Jesus.(Or why is any reference to him omitted?)
Other than that the 2nd harvest winepress does tie into Rev 19.
We know for a fact that in Rev 19: 12-21 That it is indeed Jesus who carries our God's Judgment. He Himself treads the winepress of the firceness and wrath of Almighty God.
In the book Revelation by Barnhouse, he thinks the two reaping are both Judgments to come. The 1st being the Bowl Judgments (Eccleiastical) and the 2nd being when Jesus judges the nations in Rev 19:11(Armageddon)
But why I can't completely come to grips w/this theory is stated above.
Joel 3:12
This one definately ties into Rev 19:12-21
(Ugg. Maybe I'm just blind.)
Lisa
Hah! Check this one out.
Baby Mammoth Found
Note*** After they tell you it's millions of years old-they conclude that it probably died by drowning because there was silt found in it's lungs.
(And the no hair comment-that just happened to vanish when the rest is so well preserved? Kinda looks like a regular elephant to me.)
I wonder if our "global warming" is going to melt away more ice and more "prehistoric" animals will be found. (Probably most by drowning.)
Lisa
Correction, not a million years old-37,000 years old.
Shalom, all!
Has anyone else here tried to watch the video archives of Epicenter08? I'm having some terrible problems. With Skip Heitzig, both parts 1 and 2 end after only about 5 minutes and part 3 doesn't have any audio. Is anyone else having problems?
<><
Jim,
I had the same problem w/Skip parts 1,2,3 and Joels parts 1 and 2 ended after less than a minute.
Mike
overcomer;
Yes I believe the book of Rev is in chronological order for the most part. It also does appear to reference other events to completion and then reiterate some things and the view is changed from heaven to earth and back in some sections.
you said;
"The DOTL does not begin at the signing of the covenant. The day of the Lord cannot begin before the opening of the 6th seal and the sixth seal is not opened until sometime after the AofD."
I assume you reference this from the passage Rev 6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
The DOTL discussion is a whole study in itself.
Thanks for your answers to my questions. I looked at pre-wrath some years ago and am still not convinced of its correctness, too many things are out of place to fit easily in my opinion.
God Bless!
lisa;
The reference to the "first harvester" I think, has led some to a mid trib view if I remember. You have brought up a "valid" question. I want to look into it further.
"(Ugg. Maybe I'm just blind.)"
No I would say you just need more clarification like we all do somtimes.
God Bless!
have yet to have time to listen to the conference. is there a way to download onto my mps player so I can listen in the car?
Joel and Skip will be at a conference in Tucson in May-suspect it will contain a lot of the same info if I had to guess. Randy Travis of all people will be providing some of the music-who knew.
here is a link. if any of you all decide to come out let me know as I hope to attend some of the conference myself and would love to meet up.
Conference in Tucson
Folks,
There are tornadoes heading straight for me. So far no one's been killed, just roof damage. Please pray for us. I'm powering down now.
<><
jim,mike;
Sorry, had to delete my other comment on Joel's conference it was incorrect info. Go to the part you want to listen to and click on the arrow to the right in that box, it will bring the video up in another window. After it shuts off the first time you will get a message that the video was split. You must then restart it and it will continue to play. The message also says that they will correct the error when they can. Hope this helps!
God Bless!
I'm back, and everything's OK. So far, no reports of injuries (or worse), and no reports of damage. I'll let you know if things change. Thanks for the prayers!
<><
P.S. If you're weather radar junkies, you can click on this link to get a loop of the weather here. I'm around Iowa City.
JIM just came on to the web and read your comment requesting prayer. Got you covered with the Blood of Jesus. Is that OK with you?
In the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, I plead the Blood of Jesus over the whole area that tornadoes are theatening life, property and well being. I come against it in the name of Jesus and the authority of the Believer.
Lord, I ask you to dispel the storm clouds and break apart the systems that are causing these threats to your people. Amen
Grany
Oh JIM, it brought me back to the Cave.
Grany
Kathy, I thank you for your prayers and I love you too. Green Alien's are the worst kind and at least if the Kitty Kat is the source of my spelling problems, she is giving back a lot more joy than the green alien.
JIM, I am very thankful for your safety and I know the feeling brother. The news media ran a 2 hour segment out of Tulsa or Ft. Smith about last nights storms and even though we had storm cells coming from OKCity to the West and also out of the Dallas/Ft. Worth area to the south west, no twisters touched the ground here in Oklahoma. Now, I call that a real miracle. At one time there were 7 known rotations in our area and one hung over the junction of I-40 East bound and US HWY 59 South for several minutes. It didn't move! It just sat there and threatened everyone. That was just 3 miles south of our home, due south!
Do you suppose...... nah, surely not!
Nope, I changed my mind. It was the prayers of all you guys and you were united with the Christians in our little town, praying in one accord. Yeah, Lord! What a way to Go!
Love you all,
Grany
OK. This link should get you to the radar loop. I'm glad I checked -- it looks like a new cell is forming just south of here.
<><
Yes, it works! This is the first time in years that we've had four counties all with tornadoes or wall clouds with rotation at the same time.
I posted the link to the article about "Pleading the Blood of Jesus" in the Catholic.com forum and someone posted this poem/prayer in response:
Devoutly I Adore You Hidden Deity
Devoutly I Adore You hidden Deity,
Under these appearances concealed.
To You my heart surrenders self
For, seeing You, all else must yield.
Sight and touch and taste here fail;
Hearing only can be believed.
I trust what God's own Son has said.
Truth from truth is best received.
Divinity, on the Cross, was hid;
Humanity here comes not to thought.
Believing and confessing both,
I seek out what the Good Thief sought.
I see no wounds as Thomas did,
But I profess you God above.
Draw me deeply into faith,
into Your hope, into Your love.
O memorial to the Lord's sad death,
Show life to man O living bread.
Grant that my soul may live through You,
By Your sweet savor every fed.
Jesus Lord, my Pelican devout,
With Your Blood my sins dismiss.
One single drop could surely save
From sin this world's dark edifice.
Jesus, Whom now I see enveiled,
What I desire, when will it be?
Beholding your fair face revealed,
Your glory shall I be blessed to see.
<><
BTW: The "Pelican" reference is because in the Middle Ages pelicans were symbols of fidelity because of the devotion they showed their chicks.
<><
gt:
You rightly say that the Bible interprets itself. Scripture also never contradicts itself. If it appears to do so there’s more work to be done, looking for that common denominator. Until it’s found, there is confusion. But after it’s found everything harmonizes beautifully.
That brings me to the timing of the DOTL.
I previously said, "The DOTL does not begin at the signing of the covenant. The DOTL cannot begin before the opening of the 6th seal and the sixth seal is not opened until sometime after the AofD."
You asked, “I assume you reference this from the passage Rev 6:17, For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
Partly. But it’s what those who say this will see just prior to their crying out this statement. The context here is the breaking of the sixth seal. Upon the Lamb breaking the sixth seal the sun becomes black, the whole moon becomes like blood and the stars fall from the sky. (Rev. 6:12,13) They recognize the presence of God and the Lamb.
Joel 2:31 references those same things happening to the heavenly lights and he says it occurs BEFORE the great and awesome DOTL.
In Mt. 24, the heavenly lights go out immediately after the great tribulation which we know begins just after the AofD. Since they go out BEFORE the DOTL as Joel says, and immediately after the tribulation as Mt. records, the DOTL definitely does not start prior to, around, or at the confirming of the covenant which begins D’s 70th Week.
To say the DOTL begins when D’s 70th Week commences also contradicts what Isaiah says in 2:11,17 - the Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Who exalts himself as God in the temple at the midpoint/AofD? Antichrist. To have the DOTL begin immediately after the great tribulation is cut short harmonizes beautifully with all these verses.
What things are out of place for you concerning prewrath?
overcomer;
Many of the things discussed so far pre-wrath does not have sufficient answers to, in my opinion. The chronology seems forced into a preconceived framework. There is more to understanding the themes of end times then just finding mention of them in scripture and fitting them here or there (such as the DOTL).
In my opinion dispensationalism demands the Church to be absent during Daniels 70th week because of the purpose of it(70th week). I believe classic dispensationalism to be the truth derived from God's word. These are some of the reasons that come to mind, but they are just my judgement on the matter. I respect your position also, and don't want it to be a stumbling block. These discusions have caused me to review many things I looked at years ago, and thats a good thing, I pick up new things along the way.
God Bless!
Jim,
Glad you made it through safely.
I did this today:
"Pleading the Blood and applying a Bloodline around your house and property can also help protect you from earthquakes or tornadoes"
We're having the high winds. I don't know if the Tornado Warnings will get close to Nashville tonight or tomorrow.
This system has effected quite a few in the cave!
Lisa
Good morning all!
...it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Romans 10:15 / KJV
I don't know if you've read or seen the clip about this public charter school run by muslims but
the last line of the video is the best.
Minnesota School
This one was really interesting.
It gets to the "root" of the enemy's deceptive tactics in the Education System.
Behaviorial Modification
Hi Guys,
Been distracted, hence the no posts in awhile! My wife, Adi, has been diagnosed with cancer. It presented in her left kidney and is being removed tomorrow morning at 10am SA time. There are also lymph nodes that are being taken out and we are not sure how aggressive the cancer is, so please holder her and my 2 daughters, Jenna and Teagan, up in your prayers.
Thanks so much.
jeri.
Jeri
much prayer for you and your family at this time!
jeri;
Psa 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Psa 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
Psa 103:4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
I will be praying for your family with everyone.
God Bless!
To anyone interested;
I think this article sums up what is happening in the media and some churches with regard to errant teaching. I think he makes some excellent points that may be overlooked with what is going on.
OPRAH AND THE GOSPEL OF ME
By Paul Proctor
April 9, 2008
NewsWithViews.com
There are a couple of You Tube video clips making their rounds on the Internet that have aroused a lot of attention lately. I know this because they keep showing up in my email inbox from readers of this column.
I’ve seen two versions – both of which reveal celebrity talk show host, Oprah Winfrey, denying the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as the only way to God – going so far as to tell members of her studio audience:
“There couldn’t possibly be just one way.”
The clip I’d like to focus on, Oprah Denies Christ – obviously taken from an earlier episode of Oprah, shows her challenging a couple of audience members’ faith in Christ – recalling author Daniel Quinn and apparently a character from one of his books – more specifically, a gorilla, as saying:
“…One of the mistakes that human beings make is believing that there is only one way to live and that we don’t accept that there are diverse ways of being in the world – that there are millions of ways to be a human being…and many ways…many paths to what you call God – and her path might be something else – and when she gets there she might call it the light. But her loving and her kindness and her generosity – brings her…if it brings her to the same point that it brings you, it doesn’t matter whether she called it God along the way or not.”
In light of the now sacred theory of evolution and all of the people throughout history she could quote to make her case, I find it curious that she chose to cite a simian, as if to suggest primates have a better understanding of humanity than do homo sapiens.
I did, however, find it encouraging that two members of Oprah’s audience spoke up and took exception to her heretical views. It requires no small degree of faith and courage to stand up to someone so powerful and popular, while they are surrounded by adoring fans, and tell them they’re wrong.
What surprised me initially was that Harpo Productions had not edited them out of the prerecorded telecast. But then, the two ladies really only expressed an opinion, didn’t they? – A common mistake among Christians today that is not always viewed as objectionable by the secular media – especially where the consensus process is at work and the herd mentality rules.
However, had one of those women actually quoted Jesus Christ as having said, “I am they way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me,” they could have then asked Oprah, who claims to believe in Jesus, if He was lying. Unfortunately, it appeared to have been left as a mere exchange of opinions where absolute truth dissipated into the murky realm of feminized chitchat. In that type of superficial atmosphere, whomever receives the most applause, wins.
That’s consensus.
This is what happens when we endeavor to share feelings, speculation and personal experiences instead of God’s Word. In doing so, we unwittingly reduce it to just another human opinion – which plays right into the trained facilitator’s trap.
This is how biblically illiterate Christians today are gradually and carefully being led astray from true faith in Christ – even in their own churches – through their feelings and opinions – their egos and experiences – by pragmatism and consensus – always seeking Results & Relationships – a self-damning religion that has no absolute truth – no accountability and no authority figure to answer to for our actions.
What is the New Age all about?
It is the Gospel of Me – the divinity of self.
It is about setting aside the Word of God for everyone’s “felt needs” – the very thing the church growth movement and its leaders have been teaching Christians to entice the lost to church with for years.
Claiming they were schooling us on how to evangelize more effectively – they were, in reality, teaching us to set aside the Whole Counsel of God, in all its offence, and instead lure “seekers” to the great consensus we call church for processing – to share our feelings, emotions, appetites, experiences and imaginations with one another rather than God’s Word – all with a “love” that is ignorant of and apathetic toward sin and obedience – requiring nothing of participants but participation.
It’s like leading an alcoholic down the aisle on Sunday morning with a bottle of Jack Daniels and calling it repentance and faith.
If you break it all down, the New Age is, at its core, just spiritual narcissism – cloaked in charity, compassion and unity.
Remember this next time you see celebrities, authors, books, movies and commercials promoting The New Earth – The Secret – The Shift and The Moses Code.
Do you see a pattern here?
It’s about the acquisition of special powers, hidden secrets, divine knowledge, a deeper understanding and saving the world from intolerance with good deeds, good friends and good intentions. How is this different from Harry Potter?
Training, you see, begins as a child.
So, where does it all lead?
It leads to the same place Lucifer was headed when he said, in all his pride: “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God” – that wicked one who seduced Eve into taking of the forbidden fruit by telling her: “your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods.”
After all – the New Age is about discovering the divine within oneself, is it not?
In a nutshell, the New Age and its New Spirituality promises to help you find God in everyone and everything, including yourself, with or without Jesus Christ.
But unfortunately for the millions of misguided viewers and listeners tuning into Oprah for spiritual guidance, that’s not what the Bible teaches:
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” – Acts 4:12
© 2008 Paul Proctor - All Rights Reserve
God Bless!
Jeri, our hearts thoughts and most importantly our prayers go out to you, your wife and your daughters and the rest of your family and friends.
We plead the blood of Jesus for you all.
In Jesus name, Amen.
Jeri,
I'm so sorry to hear this news.
Please know you, your wife and family are in my most earnest prayers.
Jeri, I am praying for your wife's deliverance from the terror of cancer and for your strength and faith to hold you up. I will continue to pray and I agree with Donna's declaring that the Blood of Jesus protect you and your whole family from the evil of the world.
God bless you Jeri,
Grany
Jeri,
I was wondering where you were.
Pastor David Oritz may be of some encouragement to you and your family @ this time. He's on the Epicenter conference link in the Archives.
David Oritz
Also, 1/2 way down this blog page Texan for Christ has a great link for Pleading the Blood of Jesus. The testimonies are worth the read.
Your family will be in my prayers,
Lisa
David Oritz
Jeri,
I am really sorry to hear about your wife. You, your wife, and your daughters are in my thoughts and in my prayers. Keep looking up.
Yours in Christ,
Harold
Personal poll:
Who would you say would be considered a well respected teacher/lecturer in Eschatology today?
(I want to come up with the three best from this group.)
Jeri,
Am prayng for your and your fsamily.
Speak LIFE to your wife.
Take authority over all the works of the enemy.
Command the cancer to go in the Name of Jesus - it MUST bow to that Name.
Do not let your wife "own" the cancer or any sickness by what she says - it is not hers, it's come from the enemy, and needs to be told to leave.
By Jesus stripes we have BEEN healed (1 Peter 2:24) - health, healing, walking in divine health - were all purchased for us, here and now, by Jesus' death and resurrection. If Jesus has already carried our sicknesses and borne our diseases (Isaiah 53:4-5), why should we need to now?
Call those things that are not (health, life, freedom from cancer, etc.) as though they were (Romans 4:17).
God bless,
John
Jeri,
Child of King and I are keeping you and your family lifted up in prayer. Keep on Keeping on as she would say.
God Bless
gt,
Excellent Oprah post!
lisa,
I agree with you. I think it is a baby elephant.
Thanks,
Harold
Jeri, I'm so sorry to hear this. My prayers are with you and your wife, and all your family.
Lisa, re eschatology, there are quite a few. I don't know how I'd rank them so I wouldn't limit yourself to just three. Apart from those already mentioned:
Renald Showers, Paul Benware, Paul Karleen, Tommy Ice, John Whitcomb, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Jack Kelley, Arno Froese, Gerald Stanton etc etc..
lisa;
One of the all time greats of eschatology would be John Walvoord although he went to be with Jesus in 2003. My personal favorite teachers; Jack Kelley,Tommy Ice,Hal Lindsey,Grant Jeffrey,Chuck Missler,Zola Levitt(went to the Lord in 2006?). They all have such a love for the "Word" and it shows. Also Arnold Fruchtenbaum, but I am new to his teaching.
God Bless!
I forgot to mention Dave Reagan also, he has a way of simplifing eschatology for us non-scholars.
His backround was similar to mine in that he was never taught eschatology or knew about it till later in life (went to a mainline Amillenial church most of his life). I identify with him in that. He does a good job in writing for beginners and non-scholars.
God Bless!
Has anyone else noticed lately how many countries are currently having uprisings, and/or mass demonstrations, and/or controversial elections? It seems many governments are just holding on by a thread. In many of these countries radical Islam is poised to overthrown the current government.
I ran across a middle east blog on the CNN site that I have never seen before. It contained some interesting articles about Egypt that I think are very relevant to what is currently going on in the Middle East and what is about to happen.
The articles remind me very much of what happened to Iran in 1979 when the U.S. backed shah government was overthrown and the mullahs took over. Egypt is in an almost identical situation right now. The current government, which is reasonably pro-America (at least more so than most Middle East countries) is very unpopular. The elections are all fixed and the current government, which has been in power since 1981 when Sadat was assassinated, seems to be totally out of touch with their people.
Most people are extremely poor and food prices have really risen lately. The main opposition party, which is technically considered illegal and very oppressed by the current government is called "The Muslim Brotherhood." They have a strong support base and I wouldn't be surprised to see them over thrown the current Mubarak led government soon.
Here are three of the articles from CNN:
Egypt Shakes
--By CNN's Ben Wedeman
There’s a typically subversive joke making the rounds in Cairo and it goes like this:
A man is sitting in his car in the usual Cairo traffic jam, when someone comes up and knocks on the car window.
“President Mubarak has been kidnapped and his kidnappers say unless a billion dollar ransom is paid they’ll douse him with petrol and set him alight. So we’re collecting donations.”
“Ok,” replies the man in the car. “On average, what are people paying?”
“Five to ten litres,” replies the other.
That the popularity of the Mubarak regime is at an all time low is taken for granted in the streets of Cairo. Hosni Mubarak has been in power since October 1981 following the assassination of his predecessor, Anwar Sadat.
Dramatically rising food prices (which have almost doubled since the start of the year), an ever more yawning gap between a tiny, fantastically wealthy elite and the vast majority of Egyptians (nearly forty percent of whom must try to get by on around two dollars a day), corruption, political stagnation and labour unrest all combine to make a very volatile situation that threatens to shake the monolithic Egyptian state.
“I don’t know what Mubarak is thinking,” a friend, whom I won’t identify for his own safety, told me when I was in Cairo two weeks ago. “Doesn’t he realize how bad things have become?”
Here’s another joke I heard: President Mubarak, who was an avid squash player in his younger years, is sitting with a group of his advisors.
“My friends,” he says, “I’m getting old and I don’t think I have much time left on this earth, so I need to know one thing: in heaven, do they play squash?”
“Mr. President, we’ll look into it and get back to you as soon as possible,” replies his senior advisor.
The next day, the advisors return to the president.
“We have good news and we have bad news. Which do you want to hear first?” asks the senior advisor.
“The good news, please,” responds President Mubarak.
“The good news, Mr. President, is that they do indeed have squash in heaven.”
“And the bad news?” asks a visibly relieved Mubarak.
“The bad news, Mr. President, is that you have a game tomorrow.”
But after 27 years in power, many Egyptians suspect Mubarak is surrounded by advisors who don’t like to share the bad news, that Mubarak is completely out of touch with the harsh reality that is Egypt today.
Tuesday Egyptians are supposed to go to the polls to vote in municipal elections. I say ‘supposed’ because most probably will not. The Muslim Brotherhood, the largest and best organized opposition group in Egypt announced Monday that they would boycott the elections due to the unprecedented level of harassment the security forces have meted out to them.
In the past few weeks around a thousand of their members have been jailed. The Brotherhood is technically illegal in Egypt because the constitution bans any political party based on religion. The Brotherhood has been tolerated over the years as a fact of life, and in late 2005 made stunning gains in parliamentary elections. Those elections alarmed not only the Mubarak regime, but also the United States, which had been pushing Mubarak to democratize.
Needless to say, after the Brotherhood’s gains, after the Hamas electoral victory in January 2006, the US is no longer a great fan of democracy in the Arab world, though American officials do on occasion pay lukewarm lip service to the idea.
Adding to the tensions surrounding the municipal elections is labour unrest, focused around the factory town of Mahalla Al-Kubra in the Nile Delta. Sunday workers, who have been agitating for a pay rise, fought with police. At least two protesters were killed. Clashes broke out again Monday evening, and pictures were broadcast of a crowd tearing down and kicking one of the ubiquitous billboards of Mubarak.
People in Egypt are increasingly drawing parallels between the situation today and that that existed in the lead up to the 1952 coup d’état that brought down the Egyptian monarchy. That monarchy, like the Mubarak regime, was plagued by corruption and was out of touch with ordinary Egyptians. Furthermore, it was facing an increasingly assertive Muslim Brotherhood, and widespread labour unrest: the same combination confronting President Mubarak.
But the Egyptian state—with its omnipresent and often oppressive security forces—is not easily shaken. Through violence, intimidation, and the occasional use of the carrot, Mubarak may be able to weather this political storm.
The potential for things to get out of hand, however, is still there. And Egypt, the most populous Arab country, is still for many the standard bearer for the Arab world.
There’s a saying that where Egypt goes, the rest of the Arabs follow. And anyone familiar with the Arab world knows that the travails of contemporary Egypt—official corruption, dictatorship, political oppression, economic stagnation and growing public discontent—are ailments common to many countries in the region. If Egypt shakes, the rest of the region will feel the shivers.
Egypt: The Election That Wasn't
--By CNN's Aneesh Raman
Municipal elections took place today in Egypt, after being delayed for 2 years while President Mubarak's Party tried to work out a semi-legitimate way to exclude the Moslem Brotherhood, the largest opposition party.
They succeeded: in this election some 90% of the seats have single candidates, and all of them are from President Mubarak's party. Who wins the municipal seats is important, because in the current Egyptian system, they will ultimately decide who can run for President.
Something’s off when the hardest things to find on election day are voters. And in Cairo, throughout the morning, across various polling sites, we saw just a handful.
President Mubarak called an election but in the end, it seems, almost nobody came. Its no secret why - as we entered those empty classrooms with empty ballot boxes, we passed a series of posters for candidates, suggesting an actual choice was being offered.
But that wasn’t the case. About 70 percent of the races for the 52 thousand seats on various municipal councils had only one party running – President Mubarak’s ruling NDP party.
The country’s main opposition, the Muslim Brotherhood, saw over a thousand members arrested in the build up to this election, others were disqualified, and ultimately the Brotherhood decided to boycott the vote. That meant most Egyptians knew the results of this election well before the first votes were even cast. And we've heard complaints that sound like anything but democracy to the majority of Egyptians desperately looking for help with rising food prices and stagnantly low wages.
Later in the day we went to a few main squares to ask Egyptians themselves what the felt about the election. “I won’t vote because nothing changes,” Refat told me. “It’s always the same and just look at the country and our lives, both are going from bad to worse.”
Ali told me, “Democracy is just a word here. President Mubarak’s party will win. There’s no real opposition so I won’t waste my time and vote when we already know the results.”
President Mubarak is a close ally of the United States. And many within Egypt feel the West has failed in exerting real pressure on this country to open up its’ political process and move towards a real democracy. The reasons are varied but none of them justify, critics say, what amounts to silence by the world over a government in Egypt rolling back the rights of its citizens.
Political Activist Jailed In Egypt
--By CNN's Ben Wedeman
A friend is behind bars. Wednesday evening Egyptian security personnel arrested George Ishaq, a leading figure in the Egyptian democracy movement, at his home in Cairo. No formal charges have been filed, so it’s not clear at this point why and for how long he will be detained.
I met George four years ago while covering a demonstration by Kifaya—which in the Egyptian dialect of Arabic means Enough—outside the Journalists Syndicate in downtown Cairo. Kifaya is a small but vocal group bringing together activists from across the political spectrum, from old school Marxists to Islamists, joined by a common desire to see an end—thus their slogan—to the regime of President Hosni Mubarak, in power since October 1981.
I saw George again and again at similar events, where protesters were often outnumbered ten to one by riot police and plain-clothed policemen clutching rubber truncheons.
At first glance George doesn’t look like a political firebrand determined to bring down the regime. George is a bespectacled former school teacher in his sixties with a shock of white hair and an unwavering, mischievous smile. He possesses that unique Egyptian ability to combine biting humour aimed at the high and mighty with razor sharp political analysis, his observations on contemporary Egypt always on the mark, often funny but deeply saddening at the same time.
In an interview when his movement was at its height, George told me “The door [to democracy] is open and nobody can close it again. We will go through this door and we will struggle until the end, to be a democratic country. We will insist on it.”
But his determination to bring about change has been met by an even more uncompromising determination by the Mubarak regime to hold on to power.
George’s arrest is just the latest in a campaign by the Egyptian government leading up to the municipal elections held on Tuesday. More than a thousand members of the banned Muslim Brotherhood were rounded up, plus, according to Kifaya, around 50 of its members.
The vote was met with indifference by most of the population, disillusioned by decades of rigged, sham elections. The same day, Egyptians were shocked (and some thrilled) by photos circulating on the internet of angry striking workers in the industrial town of Mahalla Al-Kubra destroying a billboard featuring a picture of President Mubarak.
A Coptic Christian, George identifies himself first and foremost as an Egyptian patriot, a man profoundly committed to a tolerant Egypt which, alas, is slowly disappearing, a country fiercely proud of its profoundly rich culture stretching back thousands and thousands of years, the Arab world’s cultural and political centre of gravity, where literature and music and theatre and art flourished.
Today Egypt is impoverished, economically and politically, its cultural life a mere shadow of what existed fifty or sixty years ago.
But the spirit of Egypt—and an unflagging optimism that Egypt will rise again—is kept alive by people like George. Even if he is behind bars.
God Bless,
Harold
Paul Benware...gee I haven't thought about him too much lately...he is awesome i have never heard of Ed Hindson, but will check him out. Some of the other names I will check out sometime or other too.
Pleading the Blood of Jesus...I like it. I have never heard that expression till you mentioned it the other day, Grany. Thanks and thanks for the link about it, Mike.
I watched Pastor David Ortiz after the link you gave us, Lisa, and WOW very powerful!!!
The entire conference must be fabulous!
Thanks for all of this info, folks...just great.
I hope everyone will be safe from weather conditions. Jeri, I can't stop thinking of you all.
<><
Northrup treats the "apostasy" as a likely reference to the rapture. Surprisingly, I've come across a stack of articles by people who also come to this conclusion.
The Rapture in Second Thessalonians Dr. Bernard E. Northrup
(Someone had sent this to me)
Do you believe that the word God should stay in American culture?
NBC this morning had a poll on this question. They had the highest Number of responses that they have ever had for one of their polls, and the Percentage was the same as this:
86% to keep the words, IN God We Trust and God in the Pledge of Allegi ance
14% against
That is a pretty 'commanding' public response.
I was asked to send this on if I agreed or delete if I didn't .
Now it is your turn . . It is said that 86% of Americans believe the word God should stay.
Therefore, I have a very hard time understanding why there is such A mess about having 'In God We Trust' on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance.
Why is the world catering to this 14%?
AMEN!
Was Dawkins Stumped? Frog to a Prince critics refuted again
Pastor's Business Card
A new pastor was visiting in the homes of his parishioners. At one
house it seemed obvious that someone was at home, but no answer came to
his repeated knocks at the door.
Therefore, he took out a business card and wrote 'Revelation 3:20' on
the back of it and stuck it in the door.
When the offering was processed the following Sunday, he found that his
card had been returned. Added to it was this cryptic message, 'Genesis
3:10.'
Reaching for his Bible to check out the citation, he broke up in gales
of laughter. Revelation 3:20 begins 'Behold, I stand at the door and
knock.' Genesis 3:10 reads, 'I heard your voice in the garden and I was
afraid for I was naked.'
April 11….(FOJ) A sick and dying man turned to his doctor, and as he was preparing to leave the examination room he said, “Doctor, I am afraid to die. Please, tell me what lies on the other side of death.” Very quietly, the doctor said, I don't know. You don't know! You’re a Christian man, and you do not even know what is on the other side?
The doctor was holding the handle of the door; and on the other side there was a sound of scratching and whining, and as he opened the door, his dog sprang into the room and leaped on him with an eager show of fondness and gladness. Turning then to his patient, the doctor said, did you notice my dog? He had never been in this room before. He didn't know what was inside, but he knew I was in here. He knew nothing about anything in this room except that his master was in here, and when the door opened, he sprang in without any fear. No, I know very little about what is on the other side of death, but I do know one thing for sure. I know my Master is there and that is enough for me.
Jesus stands at the doorway of every individual’s heart, and beckons to be allowed in. As every individual approaches the inevitable day of passing from this life, he must ponder of what lies on the other side of death’s door for him. If you have by faith, received Jesus as your Lord and Master, then he will open the door of Heaven to you.
(II Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.) (Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.) (Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you)
mac,
Thanks for posting all the Dawkins information over the last few days. I have really enjoyed reading it and sending it to some of my evolutionist friends (Christian and non-Christian).
John & Jen,
I had a sense when I was led back along the "tongue" track-it was Spirit led.
I had just missed the last sermon at the TN Church so I watched it from the archives this evening.
Not led by our usual Pastor but one by the name of James Ryle called "Did you catch that?"
The first verse was 1 Cor 13:6.
What he says @ this point is really outstanding. But the bottom line is that Satan has created division amongst what would be called Evangelical and Charismatic Christians.
The Evengelicals (me) having mostly "Knowledge & Teaching" while the Chrismatics having mostly " Revelation & Propheysing."
(With some overlap)
What we really should all be striving for is to be in the Full Sprirt which would include ALL those things just mentioned.
And John,Mike and Jen (I don't know who else) that includes speaking in tongues.
This is exactly what has been on my mind as I have been thinking about our relationship on this blog and how we all have different talents/gifts and were somehow brought together.
I kept thinking about for what reason. Of course our common interests (and not so common)support, and other. But ultimately isn't it to learn and use the gifs we all share with one another to become completely one with our Father?
Really, if you have a chance view the sermon. If you skip the music it starts at .50
Some of you may have all those Spiritual things but even so- it's a great reminder to assist others.
Did you Catch That
(In case you've noticed-my lightbulb has been going off quite a bit lately-hope it doesn't burn out.)
(***Now is not the time-I have too much work to do)
Lisa
Correction
I should have said 1 Cor 14:6
Lisa
1 Corinthians 15:20-26
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the ressurection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die,even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at his coming.Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father,when he puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until he has put all of his enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Morning, all!
I saw this news article this AM and found it interesting...didn't we talk about a volcano in western USA awhile ago?
Swarm of Earthquakes Detected off Central Oregon
Also, Lisa, I read your posts and will try to get back to you later today or tomorrow. Hubby wants time on the computer so I have to give up the keyboard for now. Interesting thoughts!
Blessings,
Jen
My husband(new believer) just flew back from CA and shared this w/me.
I don't know if you recall how we were at the crossroads of Chuch picking and he was influenced to try out the Methodist (Choir singing he likes)which I personally was opposed to.(He has been having a hard time taking the next step to complete submission to his will-& has not come to grips w/it yet.)
While he was staying w/some LONG time friends in CA he witnessed to them about his conversion to Christ and the bottom line of what you have to do to be saved.
The wife is an Athiest and the husband almost became a Christian when he had gone through AAA.
They didn't really respond in comment but were- he surmised suprised and it made them think.
Then on the flight back he gave the lady who was going to sit in the "middle seat" his usual "stink eye" but he knew it was a full flight.(he tries to ward off people so he can have more room)
It ends up that there were 20 preachers on this particular flight coming to TN for a conference. This lady was one of them & is the pastor of a Nazarene church in San Diego.
She preached to him for about two hours about his spiritual issues and what he has to do to proceed in his walk w/God.How to obtain peace,etc..
They had indepth conversations of a very personal nature and he said the people around them were very quiet and some were straining/leaning over to hear.
(The Nazarenes so happended to branch off from the Methodists 100 yrs. ago.)
She then asked him why he didn't attend a Methodist Church and he told her that they believe in replacement theology (although I think he called it by the wrong name) and told her that since the Methodists don't support the Jewish people & Irael his wife would have nothing to do with it.
She and her friend were very silent. (We know what that means)
He was so affected by their conversation-he's still ruminating on it. She so happened to be the "road scholar" type which my husband holds in high esteem and respect.(And pretty to boot)
That day the winds were very strong as this storm system was moving toward us-the pilot breaked when the wheels were not fully on the ground and almost flipped the plane.(but pulled out of it)
So all I can say is and all Hallelujah, praise, glory, and honor be to our Lord. The Spirit is on the move.
Lisa
Oh, I forgot to mention in my husband's conversation with the minister-he was speaking to her about Joel Rosenburg & Jacob Prash(Messianic Jew) The Ezekiel prophesies and he said they appeared suprised at what he was speaking of and that they have not heard Joel or Jacob's views.
I heard Jacob Prash at a prophesy conference & he's quite good if you care to listen:
Jacob Prash
Lisa
Lisa,
AWESOME story about hubby. PRAISE GOD!!!
Ton of good stuff everyone is posting, it's going to take me forever to get through - keep em coming.
GT - So glad your chiming in, glad to read ya!
Jec - If you're out there lurking, pop your head in & say Hello. Love to hear from you!
Praise the Lord everyone is safe & sound from the storms. I had awesome baseball tickets lastnight & didn't go because it was pouring this way.
I have to admit, I now cringe everytime I hear Grany has bad weather, within a day or too we get hit with freaky weather as well.
Have a Blessed day everyone!
Good Morning All:
I received this update on Pastor Kareem, the pastor in Iraq who was kidnapped:
"Finally, we have good news but we remain concerned and prayer is needed. We received word that we know where he is. He is in a prison/jail being held on unspecified charges. His incarceration is due to his ministry. His wife was able to visit him. She reports that the first thing he asked was, “Did you bring my Bible?”
He reported to her that he has had opportunities to share Christ. He is still in ministry. This reminds us of the apostles’ experiences during the first generation of the church’s growth. Paul assured the Philippian believers that his incarceration was serving to advance the Gospel. He wrote:
12 Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel. 13 As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. (Phil. 1:12-13)
We thank you for praying for this man and his wife during these days. Many have written asking about him. This is a great encouragement. Pray they will be strong in the Lord, doors will open further for the Gospel and that he will be safe and released soon. We cannot broadcast this widely for his protection. Hebrews 13:3 admonishes us believers to:
Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.
----------------------------------
I heard Walvoord at a prophecy conference in the Bay Area in the late 80's and have a couple of his books. Around that time I also read Dwight Pentecost's work, "Things to Come." Along with those great men of God I have books written by Robert Van Kampen, now with the Lord, Marv Rosenthal, and Charles Cooper.
Lisa
read your comments and have a suggestion for you.
I too was raised in an evangelical/fundamental home and charistmatic may be not a dirty word but close. (The background is too long to go into, but is theologically based for the most part) Our current church is Presbyterian (yes, that didn't really go over all that well either but since he really liked the pastor who was sound for the most part it was ok) and we have a new, dynamic young pastor. his former church was rapidly growing. in retrospect, the emergent church philosophy had started making in roads into our church with our old pastor. I have become very concerned about staying in our current church for 2 reasons.
1-the national denomination stands for a lot of stuff I don't stand for and don't like. Even if the church remains theologically sound, should we stay?
2-is our new pastor of the emergent church variety. he seems theologically sound but I have to say, how sound are you when your divinity degree comes from a secular school?
so I've been checking out some websites of churches and have found 3 I could live with. 2 are baptist (one is a bit smaller than I'd like and doesn't seem to have much of a youth program so it's at the bottom of the list) the other is a Southern Baptist church which I knew to be theologically sound at one time but not sure 100% about the national group. the final one, and the one that might interest you and your husband, is a Calvary Chapel fellowship church. This is the same group that Greg Laurie is out of as well as Skip Hertzig etc.
My impression is that they are very evangelical, appear to be theologically sound, they are pretrib/millennial, supporters of Israel and also charismatic with a twist. They believe in tongues which are intelligible language only, must only be spoken in church when interpretation is available-in short likely a charismatic church I could be comfortable with given my background. They also believe in private prayer in tongues. The one that we attended in Tucson the one time for a meeting that featured Joel was nice and not the same kind of charismatic church my grandparents attended (thank heaven for that one, that church was a scary place). About 2 years or so ago, the founder of the CCF (calvary chapel fellowship national group) put out a statement that if you wanted to have calvary chapel in your name you wouldn't be involved with emergent church philosophy. I understand a number left, including the one pastored by his son.
the main website is Calvary Chapel main site
they have a map with churches who are part of the fellowship on it. you lived in California for a time so you might actually be acquainted with the group. If you are I'd be interested in hearing what you know.
Good day to you all! It is still barely morning here in Okieland but the sun and THE SON are shining in all of their glory and I feel a song of praise coming on!
Lisa, you know you get when you combine a Evangelical and a Charismatic believer? A Full Gospel Fellowship! Oh, that we would quit tearing up each other and just simply take the Word of God as it is and believe it! I have a very dear friend who was a professor in Wheaton, ILL. She and I would read and study the Word together when we were first saved and oh, my! how the Holy Spirit moved. She is Baptist and I was too at that time! In fact I was a foot stomper Baptist from 1964 until July 7, 1990. I loved the Lord with every fiber of my life and could not get enough of His Word. I stomped my feet at any thing the Baptist church didn't approve of and especially the ministry of the infilling by the Holy Spirit. I had all I needed, so I thought, when I was saved.
A saying that Billye Brim used to tell about her precious Granny sums it up as far as I was concerned. She would tell all of her Baptist family "yer all OK as fer as ya go, ya jus don't go fer enough". I got that changed on July 7, 1990 when I was miraculously healed of a very serious spinal injury while attending a Saturday night prayer meeting with the Methodist Church choir where I live now. In a second or less, I was totally healed, filled with the Holy Spirit and never been the same since. I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now! It is kinda like the difference between a cake made from a mix and a home made from scratch one. It is the ingredients measure that makes the difference.
So, you blessed my day Lisa by sharing about your hubby and I will be praying for him too. Oh, and by the way, I have never behaved in an unseemly manner because of the Infilling of the Holy Spirit. I do speak in a beautiful Holy Spirit Language (Tongues) and John is right when he explains about it. My prayer life with my Abba is the best part of my day and it is not a one way conversation. I have spoken in my own language while delivering a message to a group of people and only heard myself talking Wilma talk but three women of different nationalities heard me in their own language. I only speak 2 languages, English and Okie. What I told them in their language was the same as I spoke to everyone else. These 3 women had come to the meeting with their interpretors in tow.
Now, I can't do that at my own discretion, only when the Holy Spirit does it. I would that everyone would be unafraid of this wonderful infilling and just know that He comes from God because of Jesus ascending to His Father and our Abba. Believe me, when the Holy Spirit becomes your promised counselor, friend, instructor, and all the other promises that Jesus gave concerning him, your walk with the Lord becomes the most beautiful and powerful testimony ever. Your life will never be the same again, Thank God!
Love you all,
Grany
MAC,
I am enjoying seeing Dawkins squirm! I about drove my hubby bonkers last night after we got home from a little flower shopping. I bookmarked all of Dawkins sites you posted and watched all of the ones I could find on the internet. Normally I keep my volume turned low but I was busy working in the kitchen so the volume was adjusted accordingly. Hubby is an evolutionist for one thing and the other is, he knows what I am going to say whenever that subject comes up. When we were still being told we all came from Monkeys/Apes, if given the opportunity to voice my opinion, I would always remark "Well, I am glad to see that some of us made it and I guess the rest of the primates are still struggling. I feel the same way about the slim. There will always be slim but the biological makeup of slim does not have the DNA that I have. Now I can email all of my creationist friends the links to enjoy.
Thank you greatly!
Grany
OOPS! SLIME NOT SLIM! See Mac you just have that affect on all the women.
Grany
The rest of the bloopers and bleepers are caused by the Little Green Alien.
Grany
OK, I have another question which I am reluctant to ask on this site!
I just talked with someone who told me that the doctrine of (total) inerrancy was only recently embraced by Christians, as recently as the '70s.
I checked a little online and found this J. Kenneth Grider:
Wesleyanism and the Inerrancy Issue
"Since the early 1970's, much energy has been expended in Calvinistic evangelicalism to support the so—called total inerrancy view."
and
"Although John Wesley can be and is quoted as supporting a total inerrancy view, I interpret him as teaching a view similar to my own, on this matter. It is so that Wesley made at least one statement, in his journal, which might imply total inerrancy. He said, "Nay, if there be any mistakes in the Bible, there may as well be a thousand. If there be one falsehood in that book, it did not come from the God of truth."8 This statement, which is quoted by Harold Lindsell in The Battle for the Bible, is different from much that is contrary to it in Wesley; and indeed, even this statement is not a clear teaching of total inerrancy. On this latter matter, he has not clearly stated that he is including unimportant matters as he says there are no mistakes in the Bible. Indeed, as he says that if there is one "falsehood," he implies that the "mistakes" he has just spoken of would be on consequential matters. Since "falsehood" is his synonym for "mistake," then "mistake" must have to do with a consequential matter. Besides, since he uses the word "truth" here, implying that the Bible, without any falsehoods in it, comes from "the God of truth," he seems to be talking about its consequential matters, instead of its mathematics, or geography, or genealogical tables, or something of that sort."
I thought there might be a variety of opinions here to help me with conversations I am sure to have with this person.
Anyone?
Lisa, Shalom! Glad your hubby made it back safe.
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I received an email from Jeri 6 hours ago. He said his wife Adi had just come out of a 3 hour surgery. They removed her kidney and she came through the surgery fine. That is the good news.
The bad news is that it was a very ugly tumour on her kidney and in Jeri's words, "things do not look so bright."
Jeri and his family really need our prayers right now.
God Bless,
Harold
jen,
That was an interesting article about the earthquake swarms off of Oregon. I know we sometimes talk about the SuperVolcano under Yellowstone National Park that maybe waking up. There was an 4.2 magnitude, really shallow (only 0.3 km deep) earthquake in Yellowstone on March 25th. This was the biggest earthquake in Yellowstone since 2003. There have also been a lot of earthquakes in Nevada for several weeks which makes me wonder if magma is flowing towards Yellowstone. Your post on the earthquakes off of Oregon adds to my suspicion that Yellowstone is waking up.
That being said, there is another volcano that I have been keeping an even closer watch on than Yellowstone.
Back in 1453 A.D., there was a huge volcanic explosion that blew up the island of Kuwae, which was 1200 miles off of the East Coast of Australia. Scientists think that this explosion went off with the force of 12 million Hiroshima nuclear bombs. Some scientists also think that this was the biggest volcanic explosion in the last 10,000 years (I would question this because I don't think we have been around that long). The volcanic ash from this explosion darkened the sky and cooled the whole earth for several years. Crops failed and there was increased starvation.
Significantly, this was also the same year that the Islamic Ottomans (the Turks) conquered Constantinople. Was this just a coincidence? I don't think so.
Kuwae (also called Karua) is a submarine stratovolcano with a summit caldera. The islands of Tongoa and Epi once formed part of a larger island called Kuwae (the island that blew up in 1453). They are part of the Vanuatu islands.
What is the significance to today? I have noticed a number of big earthquakes in and around the Vanuatu islands in the last few weeks. If you go to the USGS website and check out the earthquakes for the last few days, you will notice many significant ones in the area of Vanuatu.
There was a 7.1 magnitude earthquake in the Macquarie Island Region, east of Australia today. There were several large earthquakes last Wednesday including a 6.3 magnitude in the Vanuatu islands and 6.4, 6.3 and 7.3 magnitude earthquakes in the Loyalty Islands (near Vanuatu) as well on Wednesday. There have also been 18 additional earthquakes in that region that are in the 4.8 to 5.8 range in the last week.
We have even had a couple of earthquakes in Canada in the last week which is pretty rare.
Harold,
Thanks for the update on Adi.
Jeri - My mom's best friend just went through the same thing last year - kidney cancer - took out & initially looked really bad. She is doing great now, cancer free. She also was in really poor health prior to this & is now getting completely healthy.
Please know we're all pleading to the Lord on her behalf.
Harold - Our Mac is the closest to that volcano! :-O I think I'm going on a need to know basis with this info. - makes me too nervous :-)
This is what Dr. Fruchtenbaum has to say about inerrancy.
From his segment, Questions and Answers:
Question: "Have you ever found any errors in the Bible?
Answer: No, in all my studying of Scriptures, whether by survey or detail, I have never found any errors whatsoever. Often people will try to pinpoint errors, but these people either do not know the historical context, or they apply 20th century standards of the English language to the biblical text, forgetting that the text was not originally written in English. For example, people have pointed out that there must be an error in the Book of Johah, because the whale that swallowed Jonah is referred to as a "fish." These Bible error detectives continue, noting that the whale is a mammal and certainly not a "fish." Thus, they contend, the Word contains a mistake. This, however, is an example in which the skeptics have applied the meaning of a specific English word to a traslation, rather than checking the word's meaning in its original language. The Hebrew word for "fish" is dag, and in fact, it refers to any creature that lives in the sea. Therefore, though the whale does not technically fit the meaning of the English word, "fish," it certainly fits the Hebrew meaning of the term. And, of course, it is the Hebrew criteria that must be used, as the Book of Jonah was written in Hebrew. Most "mistakes" to which people point tend to be of a similar nature. But if we restrict ourselves to dealing with the original text, as well as the historical frame of reference, I believe we will find no errors in the Bible.
Question: The synoptic gospels speak of the healing of the two blind men when Jesus entered Jericho, as well as when He was leaving Jericho. How can both accounts be true?
Answer: Concerning the seeming discrepancy of exactly where the two blind men were healed, as any visit to Israel will show, there were two Jerichos in the first century. There was the Old Testament Jericho, located where it always was and remains; and there was a New Testament Jericho, built by Herod the Great about five miles from the original. At the time of this particular miracle, Yeshua was moving from north to south, heading for Jerusalem. What this means is that the blind men met Him as He was coming out of Old Jericho and going toward New Jericho. Both gospel statements, then, are true, as it is all a matter of whether the writer was referring to Old or New Jericho.
Jib,
I'm very familiar w/Calvary Chapel.
Maranatha Chapel pastor Ray Bentley is where I went in Poway/San Diego Co. (Conservative)
Grace Chapel pastor Steve Berger is where I'm going now in TN.(More charismatic )
They are both affiliated with Calvary Chapel. I've posted some links to them here at times when a particularly good sermon is available.
The link above "Did you Catch That" is from Grace Chapel.
The link for Jacob Prasch also mentions strong support for Calvery Chapel.
**Anne, you may want to also listen to Jacob Prash link as he does go over some Calvinistic viewpoints in the sermon of the 7 Churches in Revelation.
As I was mentioning earlier about about 1 Cor 14:6- I have not seen much in the way of tongues as of yet. Now I'm only speaking of these two I have been to.
Maranatha is pretty subdued. I can't really imagine seeing tongues there but I wouldn't be suprised if the Spirit leads them down that road soon.
Grace Chapel-not that I actively see tongues spoken but I know that some do.During worship I think they are spoken although it's not obvious.With the last sermon we had(Did you Catch that?) I think this will be addressed in the near future.
We just got finished with a long time spent on "Spiritual Maturity."
Your statement of:"My impression is that they are very evangelical, appear to be theologically sound, they are pretrib/millennial, supporters of Israel." Couldn't be more accurate from my experience and that is why I have no desire to go elsewhere.
My husband loves the message but has a problem w/the contemporary style music. The music is his only issue. (He doesn't like the drums.)
So if your searching for a new place of fellowship I would definately give it a try.
Lisa
This is off any topic, but I thought this woman was just amazing -
God bless her!
Super Mom
alesia,
I totally forgot that mac is right there in the vicinity of this volcano.
mac,
Where in Australia do you live?
well drat this will likely get lost in the shuffle of a new post but Glenn Beck apparently interviewed Joel on the radio the day after the TV show
Radio Interview
Lisa
thanks for the info.
I guess somehow I spaced on the music issue. thanks for the info on the calvary chapel folks
Jib - You are wise, missy.
I was just surfing looking for something to post!
Coming soon - just a few more comments...
Does anyone talk to Lori?
I'm starting to worry about that gal, she hasn't posted in a while - not like her.
Concerning the Calvary Chapel discussion, Chuck Smith the founder of the churches is a wonderful Bible teacher and one of the first that I listened to on eschatology. I would add him to a list of the best.
God Bless!
I am contemplating writing something on my blog about should the Church be relevant to it's culture-my answer would be no but I'll not post it here and I want to make sure it hangs together and has scriptural support for my points
Harold,
We had an earthquake just south of San Antonio TX last week. Only a 4.3 but it made the news for days. I moved here in 1975 but that was the first one I ever heard of in this area.
Also seems to me that our weather is a bit wacky as well. Makes me wonder what kind of "suggestions" our government is forcing on Israel?
Mike
Alesia, Shalom! If you're looking for a quote to use, try John 11:35.
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Jim - That's certainly a short one!
I chose a healing prayer instead.
New post is up!
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