He is gone – and we remain
In this world for sin and pain:
In the void which He has left,
On this earth of Him bereft.
We have still His works to do;
We can still His path pursue;
Seek Him in both friend and foe,
In ourselves His image show.
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Nice poem.
<><
Mac, Shalom! I noticed something while reading Jim G.'s summary of the article on the Catholic view of the Last Days. In reading the summary and thinking of all that has been covered in the cave over the last year, I can't see anything that any of us would seriously disagree with. There may be disagreement in essence, but not in substance. To me, this agreement means that these teachings are all held by the Christian Body (what Catholics would call "Sacred Tradition") and as such are given to us by the Holy Spirit, both in teaching and understanding.
I then thought of this statement from Page 2 of the article:
The Church has not yet attempted to define the precise significance of the four horsemen, the human-faced locusts, and the like. Why not? For this reason: Though the Church's understanding of divine revelation continues to unfold as the Holy Spirit guides the Magisterium, at this point the Spirit has not yet chosen to clarify these and other matters.
If the doctrine of the Rapture were truly given by the Holy Spirit, then there would be no such disagreement among believers -- there may be disagreement in essence but not in substance.
Now, since even Catholics believe in a "rapture" in so far as we will all be gathered into Heaven at some point in the future, then it seems to me that this part of doctrine must be granted to us by the Holy Spirit. What is NOT granted to us is a complete understanding of this doctrine. This complete understanding may not come to us until shortly before the event; or it may not come to us at all in this side of history. I suspect that, humans being what they are, a complete understanding would "inspire" some or many of us to "help it along", much in the way that small children want to "help along" setting the good crystal on the table when they're barely tall enough to reach the table -- it's just not something you let them do, at least until they're older.
So the Holy Spirit is withholding the details of this doctrine until it is time to be revealed. Until that time, all debates and discussions of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, etc. are not only pointless, but possibly counter-productive to the plan of salvation. Discussing and debating give us the illusion that we have some measure of control over these events, when the exact opposite is true. Rather, what we should be doing is praying for the spiritual strength to leave it in G_D's hands: to believe that we will be reunited with Him in some way at some time; but the details (no matter what we believe them to be) are in the Hands of the Lord, Who will reveal them to us in a time and manner that He knows is best.
<><
Jim C, I pretty much agree with you insofar as that arguing about the rapture is counter-productive and that we cannot know certain things – as I pointed out before. In fact most simple discussions end up divisive to an extent when there are differing views. This is also true of other doctrines such as premillennialism, preterism, reformed theology, OSAS, tongues etc. All have the potential to be divisive.
Personally, I take the position that I'm not 100% sure (and no one knows) when the rapture will occur and, given that, I would never try to teach it to someone or change someone else’s position as I take Rev 22:18-19 and Jas 3:1 very seriously.
I posted that comment about Darby and McDonald because the author was in error in equating Darby to MM’s vision. That isn’t a mystery to be revealed by the Holy Spirit but a demonstrable fact. Sadly, Jack Kinsella of the Omega Letter often gets e-mails from well-meaning types who accuse him of being a false prophet for teaching pretrib. This can be attributed to the erroneous Darby/McDonald accusations and certain articles written by proponents of other rapture views claiming that pretrib is of satanic origin.
JIB<
I would like to talk to Kelly. If she is a Cerner lead I some questions for her. Thanks.
Nate
Mac, Maybe this one is for us:
Picking Fruit
TGIF Today God Is First Volume 2, by Os Hillman
11-10-2008
"So I gave you a land on which you did not toil and cities you did not build; and you live in them and eat from vineyards and olive groves that you did not plant" (Josh 24:13).
I live on a golf course. Golf has been a part of my life since I was eleven years old. It has taught me many life lessons. I went to college on a golf scholarship and later turned professional for three years.
I often walk at sundown for exercise and use this time to pray. It is a quiet and beautiful place to walk. When I walk, I usually find one or two golf balls along the way. But one time was different.
On this particular walk, I began to find golf balls everywhere I looked. When I had collected 5, I began to notice how strange this was. Then, it became 8, then 10 and finally my pockets were literally stuffed with 13 golf balls!
When something unusual happens in our daily life experience it is a time to tune in to your spiritual antennae. God is often at work. So, I prayed, "Lord, what are you saying through this?" The answer came quickly: "I have called you to walk a specific path. I will bring the fruit to you. All you will have to do is pick it up and stay on my path for you. That is what it means to abide in Me."
The people of Israel conquered the Promised Land as a result of obedience, not sweat, toil, or natural talent. In our work life call, He desires to give us fruit from our calling when we fulfill the unique purpose for which God made us. You will not have to manipulate the outcome. Abide completely in His presence and purpose for your life so you can pick the fruit He desires to bring into your path. His nature is to do exceedingly beyond what we can think or imagine.
I didn't realize how well that last "golf ball" post fit into this discussion of rapture timing.
It reinforces Jim C's comments as well.
Scroll down on the Change.org page & you'll see an "Armageddon" map.
This Jack Van Impe Ministries posted a link & read the statement of faith. Sounds ok except for this:"We believe in the verbal inspiration of the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments;....
I have not quite figured out his deal yet-but who would be able to post a Christian link on Change.org if they didn't accept gays? Is this what "Verbal inspiration" means?
I've read a lot of books lately on the pre-wrath stance. I still don't agree, but that's me.
God refers to us in his word as "his bride." And then he gives us the wedding tradition where the groom to be comes back to his promised bride and is locked away with her for 7 days. I really believe in my heart that this represents the rapture and also the 7 years of the tribulation that he will be protecting us from.
Post trib is completely out because his word says over and over, he has not appointed us to wrath.
Mid trib or pre wrath doesn't make a lot of sense to me. At the end of chapter three in Revelations he John writes what he saw. What he saw was Christ standing at the door. In the beginning of Chapter 4 he sees the open door and from that point on the church isn't mentioned in Revelations.
It's taken me a long while to back up the long held beliefs instilled in me as a child, but now I know why I believe them and that was a personal revelation that I had to find on my own.
Do I believe that we as a body are immune to persecution, absolutely not. I do know that no matter what happens, nothing can separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. He was, is and will always be my Jehovah Jirah, my provider. Right up until my last breath, I know Whom I have believed in, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him against that day.
Monks brawl at Christian holy site in Jerusalem This is real "Christ-like" behavior but I guess they been fighting amongst themselves for years.
Fight Against Gay Marriage Ban Grows
Oh goodie! I'll make it back to CA just in time as the fight heats up.
I don't suppose we actually thought the left would not start causing trouble.
Egypt denies entry to bin Laden's son
Nation becomes the third to reject self-proclaimed 'ambassador for peace' Let's guess who will eventually accept their asylum.
Should I guess it to be the US or Europe? The guy does seem to be quite the opposite from his father.
Lisa,
The folks at Change.org posted the link to the Jack Van Impe Ministries' Armageddon map.
It's like me putting a link to Change.org in one of my comments here. It DOESN'T mean that I endorse them.
I don't follow Jack Van Impe very closely but I do know that he would not endorse Change.org in any way, shape, or form.
The folks at Change.org have links to many sites that are designed to show how crazy (from their point of view) conservatives are in general and Bible believing Christians are in particular.
Does it make sense now why you found that link on Change.org?
Mac,
Thanks for the additional information and insight regarding Darby and MM. You make some good points (though I have to admit I have always bristled at dispensationalism. I have always felt it has been used to keep God and what He can do in neat little historical boxes. "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.")
For those of you who come from a dispensationalist approach, I certainly don't mean to offend you. I know there are well thought-out reasons for taking a dispensationlist view of things.
Mac and Jim C.,
I agree with both your sentiments (and the sentiments of the author of the article) too regarding the important things that all Christians believe and not getting ensnared in fruitless debates.
I must admit that I do enjoy debating though and I love discovering truths in Scripture.
Farrakhan Praises Obama, Compares Him To RFK
Netanyahu: I'll continue peace talks
Olmert at Rabin memorial: We must give up parts of J'lem
Hizbullah: UN interfaith conference is a hoax
For Russia's Putin, knockabout with Obama is just the ticket
UK's Brown: Now is the time to build global society
Hamas Changes its Tune, Ready to Meet with Obama
Report: Obama Sends Advisor Malley to Cozy Up to Egypt and Syria
Gorbachev calls on Obama to carry out 'perestroika' in the U.S.
The international financial crisis has given world leaders a unique opportunity to create a truly global society, Britain's Prime Minister Gordon Brown will say in a keynote foreign policy speech on Monday
my 2 cents worth
1-according to Dr Ice and other pre trib scholars there have been some recently translated works of early church fathers which clearly show a belief in a pre trib rapture although they believe in only a 3.5 year tribulation. the second half would be my guess which would make them mid trib by our standards today
2-I don't see dispensationalism as putting God in a box but rather as a means of sorting information and classifying it and trying to see how it fits in an overall plan. dispensationalism is the main rebuttal to covenant or replacement theology btw as well. Replacement theology had held sway for about a thousand years or more when dispensationalism started to be promoted and shortly after that the Zionist movement was born amongst Christians rather like the abolitionist movement amongst Christians (not a perfect analogy admittedly). A careful reading of scripture does seem to indicate that God does work in phases if you will.
Our pastor I believe recently presented the following-
Before the Law was given-the prevailing way of dealing with people was retaliation. If you read what Cain says-how his death would be paid back several times over that of Abel's as an example. You kill one of mine and mine will kill 12 of yours etc.
The Law changed that. It allowed for one on one revenge if you will but nothing more. he actually used a different word but I can't remember it and the point was a little more broad as well. Suffice it to say that the Law tamed how people were to deal with each other on a personal level.
Christ changed it yet again to redemption. our attitudes toward those who wrong us is to be one of redemption and forgiveness.
so God clearly works in phases in just how we as people deal with each other-would it be any less in how He deals with people?
as to God being the same yesterday, today and forever-that refers to His essence and his being not to his actions. If it referred to His actions then quite clearly God is not unchanging since God has said He will never destroy the earth again with water.
Lori
nice thoughts on the wedding scenario as well. One might add that Noah was also in the ark with the animals for 7 days before the flood and rains started.
Marge
We do know that it is quite a responsibility. Hubby was asked a couple of years ago and refused because he was the main care giver of our son. we have subsequently discovered that ...
other couples with young kids drag their kids to the deacons meetings. so what better way to demonstrate faith in action and being involved in the church than to take your kid. of course they have yet to tangle with our son but we'll see.
the reason they want us as a couple is because they know individually we don't have the time to commit to being a deacon. Together however we get to divide the responsibilities up. he goes to half the meetings, i go to half the meetings. one month I visit our gemstone (older housebound elder) another month he does. they are also going to see what they can do as far as service like visiting sick people-which I won't do as it could be very confusing to giving some of the housebound rides to the store, taking communion to the housebound as well. we might be on the prayer team-that's ok too.
I think we're going to do it. We have to let them know the first part of this week. they have been calling at home and not leaving messages so we were notified rather late in the scheme of things. the elder in charge of contacting us didn't want to call at the office since it was our place of employment but I told here that was the better option.
Jim G,
That does make sense. I just want to know what "verbal inspiration" means. I have to dig a little further or email them.
I've heard of the ministry before but that's about it.
Verbal inspiration means that some consider the actual words used to be inspired by God in the context that the person who wrote the book just transcribed exactly what God said. Although many of the KJV only crowd insist that the actual KJV translation is the verbal inspiration of God as well and that is why all other translations are apostate and not to be used.
Interesting when you consider that the Pilgrims and the Puritans would never have used the KJV I think since it was a government ordered translation. They used the Geneva Bible. I have been thinking about getting a Geneva Bible.
Nate
she's not a programmer but is the one in charge overall of the program and making different facets of the program work from a clinical perspective. I told her the other day about you in passing and she told me they were still having many problems with Firstnet.
still interested? If so I'll talk to her about a joint email between you two. send me your business address to my email if you would rather use that.
forgive me if this was already posted
Russian Musical Chairs from AmSpec
This is a Utube video but what he says here sounds ok Van Impe Prophecy clip This guy is a real character.
This one is about their view on Aliens but it couldn't be more corny. This ad makes the entire topic sound idiotic.
I'm not too sure about this guy. From what I can tell he was considered a fundamentalist Christian up until about 15yrs ago & switched gears into the Ecumenical thought pattern.
Van Impe article on Rapture Ready
I was wondering what others see in Genesis 7:11-13...
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened. And the rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights. On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark.
When you take what the above three verses say it seems to indicate that in the earlier part of the chapter in verses 1,2,4, God gives the command to enter the ark seven days prior to the floodgates opening but Noah and his family actually enter the ark seven days later, on the day the floodgates open.
From Chambers
"After sanctification, it is difficult to state what your purpose in life is, because God has moved you into His purpose through the Holy Spirit. He is using you now for His purposes throughout the world as He used His Son for the purpose of our salvation. If you seek great things for yourself, thinking, "God has called me for this and for that," you barricade God from using you. As long as you maintain your own personal interests and ambitions, you cannot be completely aligned or identified with God’s interests. This can only be accomplished by giving up all of your personal plans once and for all, and by allowing God to take you directly into His purpose for the world. Your understanding of your ways must also be surrendered, because they are now the ways of the Lord.
I must learn that the purpose of my life belongs to God, not me. God is using me from His great personal perspective, and all He asks of me is that I trust Him. I should never say, "Lord, this causes me such heartache." To talk that way makes me a stumbling block. When I stop telling God what I want, He can freely work His will in me without any hindrance. He can crush me, exalt me, or do anything else He chooses. He simply asks me to have absolute faith in Him and His goodness. Self-pity is of the devil, and if I wallow in it I cannot be used by God for His purpose in the world. Doing this creates for me my own cozy "world within the world," and God will not be allowed to move me from it because of my fear of being "frost-bitten." "
I guess Noah and his family were waiting for the prewrath to start! They could have had the comfort 7 days (equals 7 years) but were too stubborn to obey God and enter when he said to.
Grany
Pre Tribulation Rapture Types in Genesis
Kathy-that's a good point to look into but don't you think Noah obeyed God & went in 7 days prior to the flood?
Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis
7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
***Looks like we should check out the Hebrew text.
Verse ten gives the day..."In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month." It is on this day that the fountains burst forth and the same day that Noah entered the ark according to what the text says. We know Noah obeyed, doing all that the Lord commanded him. He took all the clean animals and unclean animals and the birds. He entered the ark with his family. I wonder if it took seven days for all the animals to enter the ark and then Noah and his family entered? A question we can ask Noah when we get to heaven!
Ok, verse 15 says they went into the ark to Noah...hmmm
Verse nine also says they went into the ark to Noah.
Joel has a new post.
We know scripture doesn't contradict itself...as you can see I'm grappling with this...
Ok,
I read it a few times myself.
How I see it is that the Lord invited Noah to "Come into" the ark w/his family & animals.
God was already in the ark inviting them to come in & be spared from His judgment.
4.)"FOR AFTER" Seven more days (seven more days of what? Being inside the ark.) I will cause it to rain on earth....5.)And Noah did all the Lord commanded him.
Noah obeyed & went into the ark w/the animals because God told him this flood was coming. 10.) "And it came to pass after 7 days the waters of the flood was upon the earth." It mentions he was 600yrs old then. (Was it is actual B-Day?)
Then it tells us 2 months & 17 days later that something MAJOR happens. "that ALL the fountains of the deep were were broken, & the windows of heaven were opened." The total of this rain event was 40 days & 40 nights.
Then in verse 13 it repeats the same thing when it says "On the very same day..(the same day as what?) they entered the ark (lists all the people & animals once more )..went in as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in.
Now it tells us once more the flood was on the earth 40 days in verse 17. The rest of this part is probably describing what happened after "ALL the fountains of the deep..." because it sounds very turbulent & the water even rose over the tops of the hills.
Three times in Chapter Seven God repeats the details of Noah & his household & Animals going into the ark. That is what makes it so confusing. You think it would just keep going in chorological order but it doesn't.
Three in the Bible signifies Divine perfection, fullness,& completeness similar to the number Seven.
Can you imagine what most of the people must have thought about Noah,his household,& all those animals sitting there in this ark when nothing was happening those 7 days? They must have been laughing & mocking Noah & God.
Then the rain & "40" day period began. Could you imagine it getting cloudy & it sprinkles a few days, you get a nice rain, then it becomes heavier. Meanwhile it keeps getting wetter & wetter. The people flee to higher ground. Their houses get flooded then swept away by mudslides. Finally as the people think their safe on top of the hills God opens the "Windows of Heavens" & "Earth" after the 2mo 17days pass and the people see the water continuing to rise up the hill sides. The Animals all keep going higher & higher. Then they eat the people before the water drowns many of them.
"All in whose "nostrils" was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land died."
Is it not interesting in the Tribulation that God strikes the seas & kills the Fish?
From Chuck Smith on Gen 8:4
"The ark rested on the 7th month, the 17th day. Do you know when Jesus rose from the dead? It was the 17th day of the 7th month on the Jewish calendar. The Passover takes place on the 14th day. Jesus was 3 days & 3 nights in the heart of the earth, so it was on the 17th day of the 7th month that Jesus rose from the dead. It was on this same day that the ark rested."
Lisa,
I'm comparing Gen. 7 with Luke 17:22-30. In that Luke passage Jesus is having a discussion with the disciples concerning His return. He tells them just as it happened in the days of Noah and Lot it will be also the same in the days of the Son of Man. Jesus seems to be saying that judgment fell on the same day that Noah entered the ark and Lot left Sodom. It will be like that at His return. The same day He returns God's judgment of the unrighteous will begin. There doesn't appear to a gap for when people saw Noah enter the ark and then the deluge hit according to what Jesus told the disciples.
Your thoughts?
my personal view of dispensationalism is what I call progressive revelation.
The way to God has always been the same -- rely only on Him to provide salvation.
The commands of God have always been the same: To love Him and his creation, to love God and your neighbour.
The clarity and preciseness of that revelation is what has changed, thus progressive revelation.
PROGRESSIVE REVELATION
Adam - personal relationship no theology
Noah - personal relationship, no defined theology
Job - elementary view of God - holy and all powerful,
Abe- a call from God beginning of a covenant
Isaac -a contiunued personal relationship - no specific tasks yet
Jacob - the beginning of the nation that God created.
Egypt - the God of their fathers - his personal name unknown,- His requirements for worship - unknown
- a "friends" relationship
Moses - new revelations, new standards of living, new methods of worship, a new covenant
the exodus - a time of discoverning the nature of YHWH
The prophets - refocus on the intent of the law
Jesus Christ - move past the law to relationship and grace.
Us: looking back over the entire history.
blending it all together, applying new concepts to old revelations
LW
regarding the 7's in the flood account, Gordon J. Wenham has laid out the flood account as an acrostic, which accounts for some of the repetitions. by looking at this acrostic, one can easily see that the centre. the purpose of the story is found at "P" - but God remembered Noah. not that He forgot about Noah, but in all of God's judgement, the safety of His servant was always paramount.
to properly view this acrostic, you might want to paste it into a larger document.
enjoy thinking about it.
LW
A . Noah (6: 10a)
B . . Shem, Ham and Japheth (10b)
C . . . Ark to be built (14-16)
D . . . . Flood announced (17)
E . . . . . Covenant with Noah (18-20)
F . . . . . . Food in the ark (21)
G . . . . . . . Command to enter ark (vii 1-3)
H . . . . . . . . 7 days waiting for flood (4-5)
I . . . . . . . . . 7 days waiting for flood (7-10)
J . . . . . . . . . . Entry to ark (11-15)
K . . . . . . . . . . . Yahweh shuts Noah in (16)
L . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 days flood (17a)
M . . . . . . . . . . . . . Waters increase (17b-18)
N . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mountains covered (19-20)
O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150 days waters prevail (21-24|
P . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GOD REMEMBERS NOAH (8:1)
O' . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150 days waters abate (3)
N' . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mountain tops visible (4-5)
M' . . . . . . . . . . . . . Waters abate (5)
L' . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 days (end of) (6a)
K' . . . . . . . . . . . Noah opens window of ark (6b)
J' . . . . . . . . . . . Raven and dove leave ark (7-9)
I' . . . . . . . . . 7 days waiting for waters to subside
H' . . . . . . . . 7 days waiting for waters to subside
G' . . . . . . . Command to leave ark (15-17(22) )
F' . . . . . . Food outside ark (ix 1-4)
E' . . . . . Covenant with all flesh (8-10)
D' . . . . No flood in future (11-17)
C' . . . Ark (18a)
B' . . Shem, Ham and Japheth (18b)
A' . Noah (19)
. . . . Wenham, G.J. "Coherence of the Flood Narrative"
actually, it looks pretty nicely laid out here
LW
So LW do you see the entry into the ark as the same day the flood came? That seems to be what the acrostic shows and what Moses recorded.
That's really cool looking...
I'm just looking @ the Noah Luke account 1st.
It says: They ate,drank, yada-yada-yada-"until the day that Noah entered the ark,(So they entered & the door was shut)AND the flood came and destroyed them all."
It does not imply to me that the flood came immediately when the door was shut. From reading the Genesis account it looks like 7days passed before rain actually began. If this is correct then Jesus disciples would have already had this in mind.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made."
Here are the parallel translations
(Words for "until")
αχρι preposition
achri akh'-ree: (through the idea of a terminus); (of time) until or (of place) up to -- as far as, for, in(-to), till, (even, un-)to, until, while.
(Words for "and")
και conjunction
kai kahee: and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words
(This is just a comment from a site explaining how it was a "world wide" flood. It has a little different wording)
Matthew 24:38–39:
For in the days before the flood [kataklusmŏs], people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood [kataklusmŏu] came and took them all away.10
"The immediate context indicates there will be universal and worldwide ignorance about the time of Jesus’ return, just as there was a universal and worldwide ignorance regarding the coming inundation in Noah’s day. "
Page 5 has a good Chronology of the Flood days
Scroll down just a little & you will see another "extended chiasmus" which includes the 7 day waiting period.
"The word “rain” (Gen 7:4), matar, refer to normal rain, but it came for 40 days and 40 nights and by the time you get down to verse 12, the word “rain” is geshem, a torrent, because after 40 days and 40 nights what starts out as rain becomes a deluge, a torrential downpour (see also 1Kings 18:45; Ezekiel 13:11,13).Taken from this-quite interesting-charts,etc
God called Noah and his wife and the animals from within the Ark, "Come into the ark..." is how Chapter 7 opens. [Some translations incorrectly read "Go into the ark..."] After all were in the Ark safely, God Himself shut the door. God was not far off in heaven during the ensuing Flood, He was an on-board traveling companion with the occupants.Noah waited another seven days before the rains began. Ray C. Stedman suggests this may have been a memorial period for Methuselah who had just died.
"One of the most important, and most convincing, passages relating to the magnitude and significance of the Genesis Flood is found in 2 Peter 3:3-7:
...knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they wilfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God; by which means the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
Hey, researching that Flood account was the most fun I've had in days! Thanks Kathy!
I've now convinced myself they did wait 7 days in the Ark before the rain began. It started as a normal rain & turned into a deluge. I was reminded of the fact by reading all the material that before this time no one had ever seen rain. There was still a canopy over the earth protecting it-the reason for the really long lifespans.
So not ever living in an actual "rain" environment the population was really in for a great shock. All they had experienced was a 'mist' before.
I was then trying to see 'why' God waited the additional 7 days before the rain began. I have not found a really good answer yet. I was thinking a period of Grace but they had the 120 years of Grace while Noah built the ark & warned the people.
I think once the door was "shut" the grace period was over.
Overcomer, I see a 7 day waiting period in the ark, with the door open. Noah's family is in a safe place, but there is one last week of opportunity for anyone else to come. Following the chiastic form, Noah and his family waited in the ark seven days for the waters to reside as well.
LW
In the 3rd repetition is where the door being shut by God is mentioned. It's also the only paragraph which does not mention "after 7 more days..."
All three say "as the Lord or all the Lord commanded him." They all give the same account w/slightly different information either by adding something new or not mentioning something.
Since it is all the same account wouldn't you layer every detail on top of each other to come up w/the full & complete picture?
That's why I think God shut the door after Noah had his household & all the animals inside-then the 7days occured before the rain began.
There is no mention of the door being left open for stragglers.
7:16 "So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in."
7:9 "two by two they went into the ark to Noah,male & female, as God had commanded Noah. And it came to pass after 7 days that the waters of the flood were upon the earth."
7:3,4 "also seven of each of birds of the air, male & female, to keep the species alive on the face of the earth. For after 7 more days I will cause it to rain on the earth 40 days.....And Noah did according to all that the Lord commanded him."
Listen to the "Father Zachariah" Videos. When I hear of stories like these I think to myself: "Wait-don't come yet Jesus-there are some more!"
Grany
too funny
Kathy
it might be the use of a literary device that has you confused.
One explanation I have seen against the gap theory of Gen 1:1 and 1:2 is that it is an opening statement of what happened followed by a more detailed description of what happened.
for example-say you hit a car or someone hits you.
Cop says who hit who-you say he hit me. you then explain why. they guy didn't hit you twice you've just elaborated and extended your explanation.
I think that could be what's going on with the Gen account with the Flood. God says come in and then there is an extended narrative about what went on in detail. I think Noah was safely in the ark for 7 days before anything started
Lisa
you nailed it on the head-Christ was referring to the living as if nothing was wrong and the culture of the day not anything else. excellent work.
as far as the 7 days go-did God need any other reason other than giving a foreshadowing of the rapture?
wayne good to "see" you
excellent acrostic btw
while the flood account is very early in history, and is probably one of the earliest oral histories that was transcribed into print, yet I make the assumption that it would follow the basic rules of Hebrew poetry, that is repetition is not meant to add details, but to bring emphasis. the goal is usually not for the second to explain the first, but rather to draw more attention to it. On the other hand, as this story was initially orally transmitted, the chiastic necessity may have required the repetition rather than emphasis.
time lines and linear progression were not things that concerned the writers of Scripture, but rather events and meanings. We inherit our desire for precise timelines from the Greeks, as evidenced in Luke and Acts, in comparison to John's writings.
One thing that does not fit God's character is for him to close the door while there is still time. For the door to be shut for 7 days before the flood does not speak to the mercy of God. In the same way, after the rapture there will be a period of time (I believe 7 yrs) for those who held off to have one more chance. few will take it, but God's mercy is so awesome. The door will shut before the flood, but until that time God still calls.
Excellent comments all. I know I learned something reading today!
Good to see you, Wayne.
Lisa, are you suggesting mac should take a walk on a golf course. I think it would actually do him a lot of good.
thanks Mac. I have tried to stay up on reading here, but usually don't have the energy to write. I had a few days off from work, and the last few weeks have been more energetic, PTL.
Wayne
California's revolt against sodomy
If Noah was in the ark 7 days earlier, wouldn't Jesus’ words in Luke mean that 7 days before the flood the eating, drinking and marrying would have ceased – because He said the festivities continued right up to the day they entered the ark? We know they didn’t stop seven days early. That’s because their festivities stopped with the flood, which was the day Noah got on the ark, according to Gen. 7:13-17.
Thoughts?
This is fun, isn't it Lisa?! I'm enjoying it too!
Shalom, all!
OK, wow! I've been catching up tonight on all that everyone wrote yesterday, trying to wait to reply (and not succeeding) to see if someone else has already made the point I was going to make, and something struck me.
First of all, though, my two kopeks on Genesis 7. If you go back to Genesis 6, you'll see that's where G_D gives Noah the directions for building the ark, including the directions for bringing 2 of each kind, male and female. It's in Genesis 7 that we see that it's now SEVEN pairs of CLEAN animals, and only one pair of the unclean. Now, if you've ever had to manage a project of any side, you'll know that you don't put off certain things that can be done while you're also doing certain other things. I suspect that G_D started calling the creatures he wanted to Noah's garage / backyard / building site (you know how these simple projects have a way of getting out of hand -- I'm still not convinced that this didn't start because Noah wanted to build a spice rack for Mrs. Noah) while Noah was still cutting gopherwood to the right size. So when the ark was finished, G_D said "OK! Time to git'er done!"
Two minimum of each kind of animal. That's a lot of hooves, claws, beaks, and horns, most of them connected to animals that aren't always friendly to each other. Anyone who's had to chapparone a third-grade class trip will know what I mean. And of course, once you get them on board into their pen they have to be fed and watered and ... shovelled up. Add to that the need to dash out and pick up those last minute items you thought Shem had gotten but he swears that Japheth was supposed to pick up, and I would have no doubt that it would have taken seven days just to load everything up.
But now to the thing that struck me: In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month: it was on that day that All the fountains of the great abyss burst forth, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.
The 17th day of the 2nd month. In the civil calendar that would be 17 Cheshvan (Cheshvan and not Iyyar because the covenant with Moses had not yet been made.) In this year (2008), 17 Cheshvan falls on 15 November -- 4 days from now. Guess what else in the Hebrew calendar falls on this day:
Kristallnacht.
Kristallnacht started on Nov. 9, 1938 (15 Cheshvan) and ended the night of Nov. 10, but because it started after sundown, the Hebrew calendar would consider it to have started on the 10th (16 Cheshvan) and ended on the 11th (17 Cheshvan). What made this the beginning of the Holocaust, though, was not the pogram itself (horrible though it was). It was because on the 11th (17 Cheshvan), all the Jewish businesses filed insurance claims. For this reason, the Nazis decided that all the Jews were responsible for the damages to their own businesses, houses, and synagogues, and fined the Jewish community 1 billion marks, with an additional 6 million marks to come from the money the insurance companies payed out for damages.
On Nov. 12, the Nazi leadership decided to answer and end the "Jewish problem" once and for all. So, Kristallnacht marked the beginning of the Holocaust.
You may remember I wrote something about a year ago, concerning Zechariah 1:12-17, where an angel of the Lord asks, "O LORD of hosts, how long will you be without mercy for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah that have felt your anger these seventy years?" The Lord replies that He will be angry and show justice against those nations that have attacked Jerusalem during this time; that Jerusalem will again be propserous; and that "People will live in Jerusalem as though in open country", i.e., without walls or gates.
So we have the day the Flood began, the day the Holocaust began, which also may be the 70th year where G_D turns again to mercy for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and against those who dared to touch "the apple of My eye," all on the same day, this Saturday.
Should be interesting.
<><
Shalom! Mr. Hyde wrote:
Lisa, are you suggesting mac should take a walk on a golf course. I think it would actually do him a lot of good.
Yeah, let's just let him get a head start while I set up my shot...
FORE!
<><
Jim C, your writing amazes me. I hope you are at least submitting something, anything, to magazines. Your talent should be shared beyond the world of bloggers, IMHO. If you had a column in a mag or newspaper I would definately buy it (ok, maybe I would read it in a long checkout line).
Jim C. Use your brain power on this one:
First we have the 7days of the Ark sitting there. Then it says "after those days the flood waters..."
Is the following the start of the 40 days & nights? Immediately after the 7 days?
"in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month: it was on that day that All the fountains of the great abyss burst forth, and the floodgates of the sky were opened."
Keeping this in mind the beginning of the "40" days may have before the 2nd month & 17th day when "ALL" the fountains...."
"The word “rain” (Gen 7:4), matar, refer to normal rain, but it came for 40 days and 40 nights and by the time you get down to verse 12, the word “rain” is geshem, a torrent, because after 40 days and 40 nights what starts out as rain becomes a deluge, a torrential downpour."
If it started off slowly-clouding up & raining before this point in time then on 17 Cheshvan BAM!!-the earth splits open-the heavens go crazy & poor out buckets of rain.
I'm wondering if this could be a "type" for our day?
Something like this:
They are safe in the ark 7 days then "Bam" all hell brakes loose.
or
They are safe in the ark 7 days then the rains begin-the people outside are running around wondering what's going on-it becomes worse then @ the
17 Cheshvan BAM-all hell brakes loose.
If we were to parallel it right now this past Rosh Hashanah the 777Market Crash. We've been up & down & up & down not knowing what's really going on but all of God's Children have been "marked/sealed" with the Holy Spirit. Then this 17 Cheshvan-BAM-all hell brakes loose & God turns His eyes back to Jerusalem.
Noah & his family when in the ark for the 7 days prior to the rain were still in the world "present" but protected & in God's presence.
It's a period of time the sentence has been declared but before the Judgment begins. After the 7 days the Judgment (rain) begins slowly but gathers steam until God's wrath unleashes on 17 Cheshvan.
Obviously if this is the case Noah & his family are protected & in God's presence during the entire judgment (rain) and wrath (great abyss & floodgates) burst open.
Now I'm just basically talking to myself @ this point. Anyone else please feel free to comment.
NOAH’S DAY, LOT’S DAY—HOW IT WAS
Mathew 24:37-39 NKJV - Jesus speaking
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
Kathy if they new nothing about what would happen "until the flood came" which was 7 days after they entered the ark-then we are stuck on the "up to the day" Noah entered the ark.
The Bible just doesn't mention much detail on that. I looked up that "until" word:αχρι preposition
achri akh'-ree: (through the idea of a terminus); (of time) until or (of place) up to -- as far as, for, in(-to), till, (even, un-)to, until, while.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark.
(this was interesting-another word used for "day" which could mean "judgment day". The day Noah entered the ark was the beginning of "judgment day?")
ημερας noun - genitive singular feminine
hemera hay-mer'-ah: age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.
Now I wish we had a Torah expert to ask what the typical Jewish belief is on this account. They study this so much I bet there is something really great to be found.
Were they doing things as usual until Noah & family were in & God shut the Ark door? I wonder if the people knew that there was no way that Noah could get the gigantic ark door shut without divine intervention. So when they went into the ark & the door was supernaturally shut it changed the demeanor of the unbelievers.
Maybe this caused them to all gather around the ark & wonder what's going on. They didn't know what was going to happen-although they should have if they would have listened-until the rains began a few days later. Maybe they were all dancing around mocking Noah & God.
Too bad we don't have more details!
Sometimes God's "As need to know basis" is frustrating for us impatient types.
Lisa,
I’m still pondering these things as well! I keep going back to the fact that we are given an exact day in Noah’s life that tells us when the floodgates opened and when Noah entered the ark. (Gen. 7:11-13) They are one and the same day. I think what we see in verses 1 and 4 is God telling Moses that in seven days He was going to send the flood He had told him to prepare for decades before. This was the news for which Noah had been waiting. At that point God suspended the regular migratory habits of His creatures, the ones He had chosen to survive and repopulate the earth, and redirected them to Noah in the ark. I would imagine it took seven days for all those creatures to go to Noah. I do see the possibility of him moving in and out of the ark over those seven days and then on the seventh day he and his family finally moved in, without it compromising the record of his obedience in verse five. Were the wicked of that day watching? I imagine some were. It would seem that to see all these creatures moving into the ark would stun some into soberness, but Jesus tells us they kept right on with their merriment up until the floodgates opened. Hebrews 11:7 tells us that Noah’s faith condemned the world. That he prepared the ark in reverence. The wicked just continued in their revelry. And it is going to be the same right before Jesus returns to gather the elect. Only the elect will be sober and watching for His return, in faith. It is my understanding that everyone else will be enjoying peace and safety due to their aligning with AC and His wicked system. According to 2 Th. 1:6-10, at Jesus return, believers are given relief from being afflicted. When Jesus comes Paul says God will repay with affliction those who are being afflicted. Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels dealing out retribution. After that Paul launches into a discussion in chapter two of the coming of Christ and our gathering and the day of the Lord. Rescue and then wrath…just like for Noah and Lot. That’s my understanding anyway.
I bet Noah endured a lot of humiliation for his reverent faith. But the good result of his faith and acting on it was the salvation of himself and his family.
Have a great day all!
Rabbi Yose and Rabbi Yehuda (2nd c. ad)(The Zohar: Daniel Chanan Matt) suggest that Noah went into the ark when the flood was up to his ankles due to his reluctance to believe. I in turn have a reluctance to believe their interpretation.
The Targum Onqelos to Genesis (c.35-120 CE)
CHAPTER 7
[7:20, 23a missing in Vat. 448]
I. Then the Lord said, "Enter the ark, you. all the members of your household; for you have I perceived (as) righteous before Me in this generation. 2. Of every clean animal ... preserve seed upon the face of the earth.
4. For in yet seven days' time, I will cause rain to descend upon the earth ....
7. Then Noah with his sons, his wile, and the wives of his sons with him. entered the ark because of the flood-waters. .... 9. A pair of each entered the ark with Noah", male and female, as the Lord had commanded Noah.
10. And after seven days' (time) the flood-waters were upon the earth. 11. In the 600th year of the life of Noah, in the 2nd month, on the 17th day of the month, on that day, the fountains of the great deep burst apart, and the windows of the heaven were opened.] 12. And the rain came down upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13. On that very same day, Noah, (and) Shem, (and) Ham, and Japheth. the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, as well as the wives of his three sons came with them into the ark. 14. They and every (wild) beast ...
So they entered the ark and the Lord protected them
both of these sources leave doubt as to what "that very day" refers to.
Perhaps someone has access to a chief Rabbi somewhere.
LW
Just received from Stan Goodenough from Jerusalem Watchman this article. I am posting the link because it is too much to post here.
The Fall of the West
I just noticed I have this thick book called "The Genesis Record" sitting on my bookshelf.
Obviously you can tell I have not read it yet. Anyway I looked to see what it said.
"God next made (After He told Noah bo bring in all the animals) the rather unexpected statement that it would still be 7days before the Flood would actually come on the earth. This was no doubt premarily for all of Noah's last minute preparations....& perhaps one last warning to the world of the ungodly. Perhaps it was also the period of mourning after the burial of Methuselah."
Then: "Furthermore, on the very last day, after the seven days were finished, the day on which the Flood came, Noah & his family themselves entererd the Ark. This evidenced their faith in the absolute accuracy of God's Word, neither fearfully rushing into the Ark ahead of time, nor presumptuously delaying past the announced time."
"Once all were inside, Noah evidently being last, a remarkable thing took place. "The Lord shut him in."...Then the 40 days began.
This was interesting:
"The breaking up (literally "cleaving open") of the fountains of the great deep is mentioned 1st so evidently was the initial action which triggered the rest. These conduits somehow all developed uncontrollable fractures on the same day. ..The most likely cause would have been a buildup & surge of intense pressure throughout the underground system, and this in turn would presumable require a rapid rise in temperature...."
"Once the postulated pressure rise caused the first "fountian" to crack open, the pressurized fluid would surge through at this point & further weaken nearby boundries, until soon a worldwide chain reation would develop,cleaving open all the fountains of the great deep throughout the world.
"The volcanic explosions & eruptions which would have accompanied these fractures would have poured great quantities of magma up form the earth's mantle along w/the waters."
"Furthermore,immense quantities of volcanic dust would have been blown skyward.....would suffice to penetrate the upper canopy of water vapor & trigger another chain reaction there, causing its waters to begin to condense & coalesce & soon to start moving earthward as a torrential global downpour of rain."
(I wonder if they could hear all of this inside the Ark or if the animals were too noisy.)
Lisa,
Who is the author of that book?
I loved this paragraph:
"Furthermore, on the very last day, after the seven days were finished, the day on which the Flood came, Noah & his family themselves entered the Ark. This evidenced their faith in the absolute accuracy of God's Word, neither fearfully rushing into the Ark ahead of time, nor presumptuously delaying past the announced time."
Noah's faith is stunning isn't it?
(I'm in photography mode.)
I just googled it...Henry Morris. I think it is the same book I used to write a paper WAY back in college...
Hi, all! I got back Saturday from my marvellous cruise. My two friends and I put God at the center, and He absolutely blessed the socks off of us!
Lisa, you and the others might be interested in this link that gives some information about the ancient Jewish marriage traditions.
http://www.returntogod.com/feasts/fall.htm
(Sorry. You'll need to copy and paste)
John 14:2 (where Jesus tells His disciples that He's going to His Father's house to prepare a place for them) is referring to the tradition of preparing a wedding chamber.
So what do you think LW?
Did they all enter into the ark the 1st of the 7 days or just the animals entered & Noah & his household waited & went in permanently on the day flood waters began & then God shut the door?
Or the ark sat there empty for 7 days then they all boarded @ once.
Animals,Noah,Family,Door Shut-Flood began.
This is frustrating. I don't want to read my own perceived ideas into it. UGGG
Kathy, speaking of migration. The Genesis book mentioned that pre-flood there was probably no reason to migrate. It was a consistant canopy type atmosphere so there was plenty of food,water everywhere. After the flood & the canopy was removed-there was a great need for migration as the earth so dramatically changed.
here is a fascinating book online that might help understand the mechanics of the flood. As of yet, I find no real disagreement with it. the flood
I think that Jim almost had it right. The only thing that he forgot was the time it took to get in all of that coffee that was needed for a full year. I don't think it took a whole week to get the animals settled, but that pregnant pause would have been very important for those debating the authenticity of Noah's message.
One of the other Jewish writers wrote that this 7 day period was God's time of mourning for the loss of all those people.
I guess I forgot how to do links. here is the info for cut and paste.
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/
PTL, I received a call today to candidate at a church in a few weeks.
pray that it is the right fit for both us and the church
Wayne
Thank you for the migration comment Lisa. I do believe God directed the animals into the ark, what an awesome sight that must have been! Animals that were normally fearful of man (and man fearful of them) went straight to Noah. Another faith builder for him! I think it would have inspired awe in Noah as well too, don't you think? With the canopy gone, the weather system would have changed and thus the animals scattered to different parts of the earth. I would love to read that book again. I'll have to try to get my hands on a copy!
I'll be praying about your candidacy LW.
LW, your link worked just the same. Thanks
:)
Kathy,
The animals didn't have a fear of us until after the flood. See Genesis 9. But you're right, it must have been an awesome sight!
Angie
You are right Angie. Thank you!
I think it's time for me to read through the entire book of Genesis again!
Somewhat on subject...
My kids just read a children's book about Noah's Ark and it described all the animals coexisting together during the rain. One neat idea from the book was that the rocking of the boat made them sleepy and so they spent most of their time asleep and peaceful. Perhaps if they weren't afraid of humans at that point, they weren't afraid of each other either. Can't wait to watch the replay reels on all this stuff :-)
Blessings,
Jen
Please pray for my sister in law, Lyla, she's having extensive shoulder surgery tomorrow.
Is Obama, Gog? Jewish perspective: radio, be careful to remember this is from a totally Jewish standpoint.
Hamas Claims Secret Relationship with Obama Aides
Is Bibi imitating Obama
Jerusalem's secular hope
By the way: Obama Invents 'Office of the President-Elect'
Jordan's King Pressures Obama to Pressure Israel
Plan leaked for 'civilian security force
Abbas Praises Suicide Bombers; Foreign Media Downplay Remarks
Quartet Presses, Israel Renews Fuel Supplies to Gaza
Russia to Sell Heavy Arms to Lebanon
Russia's Medvedev submits draft law on extending term
Cuban president to visit Russia, alliance grows
Europe unveils its vision for global financial reform
US and EU find common ground on global financial reform
"Bush looks forward to discussing how to best advance reforms to global financial markets with a wide range of leaders"
World has 100 days to fix crisis: EU leaders
IAEA Finds Uranium Traces at Syrian Blast Site
IAEA irked at "premature" Syria nuclear disclosures
Oops, my bad!
Iran test-fires new missile near Iraq: state media
Bin Laden's son deported to Qatar
‘Apartheid’ Israel, Islamophobia on the Agenda for U.N. Racism Meeting
UN chief invites Saudi king, Israeli president to dinner
Great source for world news and news links at lower half of page
GOOGLE REPORTS SEARCHES, LOCATIONS TO FEDS THESE ARE MY LAST NEWS LINKS! For great news links go to crossactionnews.com and go about half way down page to view links.
Angie,
I'm so happy that you, and your friends had such a good time on the cruise. Praise God!
And good to see you back posting, too!
LW,
I'm agreeing with you, in prayer, that God leads you, and the church to the right decision.
Jen,
It will be fun watching history, from heaven :) A neat thought!
Lori,
Also praying for Lyla.
God bless our Veterans!
And may God still continue to bless America! And have mercy upon us.
Praying for Lyla.
Coincidentally (?) Answers in Genesis has the following as its feature article of the day:
Taking Back the Rainbow
Praying for you as well, Wayne.
Apparently Chesterton had a big influence on C S Lewis too.
G.K. Chesterton: Darwinism is ‘An attack upon thought itself’
Mac and Everyone,
I just posted a pic of a "moonbow" to Shutterblog that my brother sent me recently. It's really cool.
Along with the picture he sent these comments:
"The LORD reminds Himself of His covenant even at night! See the attached photo of a phenomenon that even this former science teacher didn't know could exist.
Somehow it's reassuring to realize that even at the ripe young age of 51, there are still truths to discover and mysteries to uncover...."
Obama be thine name
"Prepare me a Sanctuary,pure and holy,tried and true." Could this not be considered Blasphemy?
Grany,
That article you posted today "Fall of the West" was really good. I sent it along.
It's pretty much mirrors how I feel about this whole situation.
USGS Worldwide Earthquakes between Magnitudes 6 and 8
Old lady harrassed @ Prop 8 rally This little old lady has some guts & look how calm she remained-bless her soul!
WND take on it.
Wilma,
That article was even more sobering than James White's...
I am enjoying the discussion and my fingers are getting tired from linking to everything. But I still have ten toes and removable socks.
LW I am adding your prayer request to mine prayers to and Lori, your requests also.
LW it is great hearing from you and I miss your Godly comments and take on the scriptures. God bless you!
Angie, what a joy to hear from you and it is wonderful that your cruise was such a blessing to you and your friends. No one can do it like Abba does.
I hope you all took time to read Stan Goodenough's article I posted. I saw where Lisa and Kathy reported on it and I have to say, the guest commentator on Stan's web site spoke my heart also. I have heard that Kim Clement had prophesied that Obama would be totally and radically saved, filled and changed that we can all believe in during his early term in office. I don't we would all be so on guard if that was true. I am hoping and praying that it is true and I am trying to keep a positive outlook on the whole thing.
I do know that God has the answers and when he gets ready, he will reveal it. In the meantime, I am standing firm in my faith that He is able and willing to complete all that he has begun in me and until I stand before him in total surrender, I put all of my hope and trust in him alone.
Love all of you and I have to say Nighty nite!
Grany
Sleep tight - don't let the bed bugs bite.
Shalom, all! Some advice to observe in the days to come under the Obama administration:
Beloved: Remind them to be under the control of magistrates and authorities, to be obedient, to be open to every good enterprise. They are to slander no one, to be peaceable, considerate, exercising all graciousness toward everyone. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, deluded, slaves to various desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful ourselves and hating one another.
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:1-7
The LORD is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
In verdant pastures he gives me repose;
Beside restful waters he leads me;
he refreshes my soul.
He guides me in right paths
for his name’s sake.
Even though I walk in the dark valley
I fear no evil;
for you are at my side
With your rod and your staff
that give me courage.
You spread the table before me
in the sight of my foes;
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
Only goodness and kindness follow me
all the days of my life;
And I shall dwell in the house of the LORD
for years to come.
Ps. 23:1-6
Jim,I'm watching Nov 15- I've kept everything you've posted on various dates of interest.thanks for the research!!
Is anyone familiar with Arnold Murry and The Shephards Chaple? I'm listening to some of his lectures and ......well it's a little differant. Granny? He's in your area. Ever heard him?
Jamie
This was a good one- in particular the comparison of what the Church @ Ephesus was doing well at 1st & what happened to them about 35yrs later that Jesus was rebuking them for.
7 Love Letters from Jesus Sermon
"In this series we’re examining the 7 letters to the churches in the book of Revelation. This week will be the letter to the church at Ephesus."
You can just hear it or watch it-available both ways.
Warnings from world leaders all within 72 hours
Hey, I guess it's picking up steam.This was posted on the Trumpet:
Michigan liberals attack Lansing congregation in the middle of Sunday worship. So after a few attemps @ this w/a "Christian like" reation-are the guns coming out?
Then Obama's "Community organized Military" will step forth to ensure peace? His henchmen comprising these left wing freaks.
They even wore "ear pieces" to coordinate their "attack."
Oh how hard it is & will be to remain "in Christ" when situations such as these arise. Either I better get some fiery testing quick to shape me up or be doused w/the Holy Spirit @ just the right moment.
What they pulled is so disgusting it's almost unreal.
Grany,
Thank you so much for posting the article
The Fall of the West. I read soon after you posted it on November 11, 2008 10:53 AM. I printed it and have forwarded the web address to several people.
The Religious Left Celebrates
I'm 100...no wonder my body is aching!
Hi folks,
My cousin is not doing so well and I am asking you graciously for your prayers for her. Her name is Sharon and she is struggling with cancer. I feel also for her husband who took her from a failed marriage and restored the gift of love to her. I ask for his prayers too. See the email from Myron below. Thanks and God Bless you all.
Dear friends and family,
Sharon is still in Grandview Hospital. She still has major bowel blockage caused by tumors, probably numerous ones. Things are not going very well. They are planning to insert a NG tube today. I do not know what all is going to happen, the DR's do not either. The DR's are h o p i n g the bowel will open up but we do not know what will cause that to
happen, except a MIRACLE. There was a mention this morn. about maybe sending her to Fox Chase Cancer Center in Phila.
Please do not call Sharon's room, since she will not be able to talk with the NG tube. Also I will gladly print emails for Sharon to read if you wish to send them to me.
HELP.
Myron :=-(
Nate,
Will be praying for Sharon.
All the leaders are gathering together-All we need is the "one guy" to show up.
Spiritual leaders gather in Aspen Group hopes to discover collective voice
"The gathering was deliberately scheduled two days after the presidential election. Organizers said that during the past several years, the nation has become politically and religiously polarized. The initiative is an effort to end the divisions by tapping the values shared by all religious traditions and focusing on the vision of unity."
“I think last week’s election is symbolic of a change in American culture but also in its consciousness,” he said. “What this conference is doing is to bring together hundreds of people who are manifesting that in their work around the world.”
........
"The premise of the gathering is that the spiritual landscape of America is changing." (There is an understatement!)
"Organizers said that the religious voice of the Fundamental Christian Right has dominated the country for several years and it represents a minority of Americans.
That’s why the initiative conducted an extensive search to find respected leaders from the Hindu, Buddhist, Sufi, contemplative Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths — who aren’t advocating for the superiority of one faith, themselves or their churches."
Hi Nate, I'm praying for a miracle for Sharon and Myron.
Nate,
Ditto to the miracle!
Nate, will be adding my prayers to all of the others for Sharon and Myron. We serve a mighty God and there is nothing impossible to him.
Another day at the doctors office for Jim and you know what, I am really tired of the name "clinic". But his eyesight is great in the operated one and this makes him 2 great eyes. He was so very nervous and this nervousness is getting totally out of hand. I don't believe it belongs to the Lord and I am asking God to heal him of the terrible shakes and deep seated fears that create it.
Lisa and Kathy, if either of you have "The Stone Edition" of "The Chumash" it would have some very interesting information and customs related to the flood, Ark and Noah. I would attempt to type it all out for you to read but my eyes are really tired tonight and the print is very small. Maybe tomorrow it will be better. This book is a gold mine to me and this particular edition is great.
I will rejoin you all in the morning. Today has been sufficient for me and I am taking my leave for the night.
Grany
Praying for Sharon and Myron, too.
Nate,
Are you talking about Grandview near Perkasie? You might remember that I live there and am about 5 miles from the hospital. I would be happy and humbled to go and pray with Sharon or other family members if that would be welcomed, if she indeed is in our local hospital.
I found a great website that focuses on the healing Scriptures at savedhealed.com. It has been very valuable to me and I'm planning to share it with some family members as well. That might be a source of encouragement for the family, too.
Blessings,
Jen
A lot of the most current earthquakes that are around 5.0 are at a depth of 6.2 miles. I don't think that's a coincidence.
John, Jim... any thoughts
Shalom, all! I'd like to ask your prayers for the son of a local Rabbi. Rabbi Avremel is the head of a local Lubavatcher group, whom I met while doing some pro-bono computer work. I sent him an email asking him some of the questions re: Noah that we've been debating the last few days. I got the following reply yesterday afternoon:
I will respond at a later time as we just had a [baby] and he had heart surgery which went well, but we're still praying for a smooth recovery
<><
Lori thanks for the reminders about earthquakes.
I meant to comment on what an eye opener mac's link nov 11 at 4:50was re: earthquakes.
Wow!
Praying for the Rabbi and his child and family.
Shalom, all! I wrote some more about the possible events this weekend, 15 Nov. / 17 Cheshvan over on Catholic Answers Forums. (FWIW, I meant to write some more on it, but was literally knocked out with sleep as soon as I asked G_D what I should write, so I think I'm pretty much done on this subject for a while.) Here's what I wrote:
+++++++++++++
Shalom! I honestly have no idea. I have some theories, though. After posting that, I went to bed (working 3rd shift now) while thinking about it, and came up with some ideas.
I got my quote from Genesis chapter 7. However, the story of Noah begins in Chapter 6, with the Nephilim. The Nephilim were a race of giants that arose when "the sons of heaven" mated with "the daughters of men". Goliath according to some sources was a descendant from the Nephilim. One of the things that G_D commanded during creation was that each should mate with its own kind (which is where we get the biblical prohibition against bestiality). IOW, dogs mate with dogs, clown fish mate with clown fish, corals with corals, etc. The actions of the "sons of heaven" violated this command, and by mixing different "types", corrupted humanity even further. It's this corruption that caused the earth to become so degenerate that G_D chose to wipe out almost all creation with the flood.
Let's fast forward a few thousand years. I'm not such a literalist that I believe that the Nephilim existed as described in Genesis. However, I don't believe there's any "wasted space" in Scripture. If Moses (or whoever wrote Genesis) was inspired by G_D to write about Nephilim, then it was done so for a purpose. We are violating that purpose. This YouTube video, Genetically Modified Fish show bioluminescent fish that were created when a gene from coral was spliced into the fish's genome. You can think, "Cool! Can I get some for Christmas?", but this problem goes way beyond creating living nightlights. We now have plants that not only have genetic material from completely different plants, but we now have plants with genetic material from non-plant organisms.
If you'll check out this article from Cornell News, in May 1999, you'll see the results of a variety of corn that was gene-modified with genetic material from a bacterium, designed to fight against the European corn borer. (Think termites that eat corn plants from the root up.) It's corn with it's own built-in pesticide, that doesn't affect animals like bees, etc., and is certified to be safe for human consumption. There's just one problem:
It's poison for monarch butterflies.
Any monarch butterfly that gets within 50 feet of this corn plant is killed by the pollen.
What's going to happen when we start combining animal DNA with HUMAN DNA? (I know we already have sheeple, but that's psych-ops, not genetic engineering.)
So the Flood is associated with a biblical-based warning against genetic engineering, where the engineering mixes DNA from different species. There are some specific exceptions to that rule -- if you breed a horse with a donkey, you get a mule; breeding a lion with a tiger gives you a liger. Both mules and ligers, though, are sterile -- you cannot breed a mule to a mule and get baby mules, nor can you breed ligers. In both cases, the cross-breeding was done the old-fashioned way. You know: soft lights, a little wine, Barry White on the stereo, that sort of thing. I know there are some people who view what Luther Burbank did in his cross-breeding to be against the biblical prohibition against "sowing mingled seed"; however, to my knowledge he didn't do anything extraordinary to force the genetic material of one plant to fertilize another, so I'm willing to give him a pass on this. (The biblical prohibitions are in Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:9, BTW.)
(BTW, also: "sowing your field with mingled seed" likely refers to sowing your wheat and your barley together. If you sowed your wheat and barley together, how could you separate them out at harvest? Barley is considered a lower-class grain; if you sold your wheat mixed with barley as pure wheat, you'd be cheating the buyer. Likewise, you can't plant your grape vines in your olive tree grove. The grape vines are likely to choke off the olives while climbing the olive tree, and it would be very hard to harvest the one without damaging or mixing in with the other. Imagine wine made with grape juice that has olive oil mixed in. Blech.)
So that leaves us with the question: what has Israel been doing in the field of genetic engineering lately?
Another possible view: The purpose of the Flood was to protect G_D's chosen people, who would be descended from Noah. It was to wipe out the people who were threatening to totally corrupt humanity, including the future people of Israel, and make the Incarnation of Christ impossible. We now have Israel surrounded by people who have sworn to destroy it. It's possible that this weekend could be a time where these people try once again to show that Yahweh cannot keep His promises to protect His people. If that's the case I can see the War of Psalm 83 breaking out with an attack or attempted attack on Israel.
Psalm 83 describes a war that hasn't occurred yet. The nations described in the psalm have yet to unite to attack Israel. The nations listed are literally all the nations surrounding Israel at this time, from Gaza to Jordan to Syria to Lebanon. Of particular note is the mention of Assyria giving aid to these nations. Assyria isn't the present day country of Syria. Assyria was formed of the northern parts of Iraq, Iran, and parts of Turkey, and included present-day Tehran. Aid coming from Tehran would be coming from Assyria.
Hope this helps.
<><
Campsmore, Shalom! I don't see very much in the earthquakes being at a depth of 6.2 miles (10 kilometers). Checking out the list of earthquakes and those locations, 99% of them (one in China being the exception) occurred in the ocean. 10Km would be about the right distance for the ocean depth, i.e., these earthquakes occurred at the bottom of the ocean.
I did notice that the chain of faults in the Indonesian ocean appears to be more active this week than earlier, and that the fault line in Alaska has REALLY been shaking this week. Can't draw any conclusions about either of those statements, though. Sorry.
<><
Oh, what a beautiful morning, oh, what a beautiful day, oh, what a beautiful mornng everything's going my way! Still morning in Okieland and God is still on His Throne!
JIM C. that was great work on the flood thing my round friend! You brougtht up an interesting point, God DID cleanse the land with the flood and to the benefit of the Hebrew people. Good point and well stated.
Now, my question to you all is very simple, when God did that piece of work with the flood to protect the blood line of the Christ, will he do the same thing to protect the blood lines created by the Christ? In other words, for the Christians, will he scorch the earth to purify it from all unrighteousness or will he simply restore all of the Believers to a right standing with Him? Is that the meaning of "judgment will begin in the House of the Lord"?
I know that the verse I want to reference but I have all of that stored on my hard drive of my desktop computer which is not awaiting major surgery, depending on the cause of the problem. In fact, my whole research is stored on my computer and I didn't back it up.
That is getting off the subject and I love this new topic because it is very important to all of us. As goes Israel, so goes the church because we all initially came from them and our necks get just as stiff as theirs. My heart is heavy with the awareness of the danger Israel, especially, is in and the aftermath of the voters selection of the World's president and wanna be King. I am trying to be positive Donna, but I can't get past the fervent intercession going on in my heart right now. I just don't believe that all is right with the world and we are on our way to bliss! It wouldn't make a bit of difference who won the office of President for 2009. We are on a collision course with God is we don't quickly judge ourselves and repent (turn away totally from it) before God brings it on. We will be judged one way or the other. No matter what we feel, evil is evil and God cannot look on sin. Only through the blood of Jesus Christ.
So, back to the Flood! Noah didn't close the door to the ark did he. God did! What kept Noah from shutting it is my next question. Was he expecting something else beyond what God knew or was he just timid and so humble that he didn't want to leave anyone out. Just my wondering about all of the little details but the little details tend to be big points when we look back at something.
Grany
It is a beautiful morning, isn't it Wilma?! All mornings are beautiful because He is in them, working out all things for His glory.
I don't have a copy of The Chumash by the way.
I hesitate to respond to your first question because I know how you feel about my understanding of the church going through the great tribulation. I ask for your grace to respond.
My understanding is that the purpose for God's day of the Lord's wrath is to deal with the sinfulness of mankind and to cleanse and judge the earth for its wickedness prior to setting up His millennial kingdom. The great tribulation on the other hand will separate the wheat from the tares so that Christ returns to a church without spot, then almost immediately God's wrath falls during the day of the Lord. God will protect His remnant Israel during the great tribulation and His day of the Lord’s wrath. I believe the 144,000 are saved just after the rapture; they are the first fruits of the remnant of all Israel that is saved. The rest come to salvation at the end of the Week. (Dan. 9:24)
Why didn’t Noah close the door? When we aren't told, it gives license to ponder...pondering doesn't lead to definitive conclusions - it just gives you something to think about…Perhaps when God made the announcement that the flood was coming in seven days He told Noah that He would close the door but it is not recorded? I love your pondering on Noah’s humbleness and not wanting to leave anyone out!
Here’s another question to ponder…”Were the animals waiting to be boarded before the word of the Lord came to fill the ark? Or did they start to arrive once God made the announcement?”
I think it's kind of fun to think that the animals began to mill around, giving Noah pause, sensing that perhaps the time was drawing closer.
Mysterious glowing aurora over Saturn confounds scientists
1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Gen. 18:25 "Far be it from thee to do such a thing as this, to slay the innocent with the guilty, far be it from thee, O thou Judge of the whole earth! such a judgement should never be carried out."
Psalm 1:5 "Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
The Bride of Christ will be a "glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:27)
"Son of man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness." (Matthew 13:41)
Joel 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, Consecrate a fast, Call a sacred assembly;
Joel 2:16 Gather the people, Sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, Gather the children and nursing babes; Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, And the bride from her dressing room.
Joel 2:17 Let the priests, who minister to the LORD, Weep between the porch and the altar; Let them say, "Spare Your people, O LORD, And do not give Your heritage to reproach, That the nations should rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where is their God?'"
Joel 2:18 Then the LORD will be zealous for His land, And pity His people.
II Peter 3:14 "Therefore, my beloved, while you look for these things, be diligent that you may be found by him in peace, without spot and blameless."
Did I get any of the scriptures you were looking for?
My favorite is the last one. I pray that the Lord finds us without spot and blameless.
Hey Lori, don't forget that we already are without spot and blemish...not because of anything we have or have not done, but because of what He has done for us.
:)
Grany, I definitely do not think that all is or is going to be all right with the world....especially if we truly are drawing near the the end times, etc!
Personally, I hope we are drawing near the end times. Obviously I don't want to go thru the tribulation and I don't want anyone else to either. But that's me looking at it thru human eyes.
I hope and pray that the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And I hope He comes back soon, whether its today, tomorrow, pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, prewrath...whatever!
The sooner the better!
You're right, Donna. I just want every moment of every day of my life to glorify Him.
Isn't this something about Noah's Ark.? A story Children read & learn but when you really get down to it-it's not just "child's play."
I don't know the answer but I "heard" that the door of the ark would have been so heavy & huge it would have taken God to shut it.
The Bible also records that only 8 people would be saved in the flood -God foreknew outside of time-so Noah may have already known that was going to be it but it was his duty to sound the alarm & proclaim the warnings regardless.
And we feel sorry for ourselves? At least as we are sounding the alarm some people are still responding. 120 years Noah called out seeing no fruit.
Jim C.
Looking at the Bible "literally" for the most part is really not a negative trait. Without doing so there are many things happening which one would not understand in our day.
You’re skipping around the bush but your God given intelligence is not going to allow you to gloss over the "genetic" corruption scenarios which by the way you have brilliantly pointed out.
I have faith you’re going to come around one of these days. Even when the Vatican tells you the UFO's hovering over Washington DC (or wherever it/they may be-Israel?) are our "enlightened" friends you’re not going to fall for it.(Even if the Virgin Mary & a big giant glowing cross are beaming out of it!)
You will realize the Nephilium of the Flood period are back. Literally-to corrupt the human species @ one final attempt.Not only to corrupt them physically but also spiritually.
"As in the days of Noah & Lot". That is literally what we are going to witness. It seems as if the "gay & perverse" agenda is at the fore front @ this particular point in time. All Christians who "literally" believe in the sanctity of life and of marriage are currently in the middle of some serious spiritual warfare.
I'm jumping ahead w/the Nephilium ordeal but it's coming. God is holding this back. It’s not time yet.
Jim C.,
You wrote:
Goliath according to some sources was a descendant from the Nephilim.
That would seem problematic because Goliath lived after the flood. Unless of course these sources think that some in Noah's ark were descendants of Nephilim (which I highly doubt).
Interesting thoughts and insights (as usual).
I've always struggled with the passages in Leviticus that seem so applicable to our lives today and others that seem so inapplicable. For example, prohibitions against homosexual relations (Lev. 18:22 --applicable) and prohibitions against wearing clothes that are cotton/polyester mix (Lev. 19:19 --hopefully inapplicable).
Thoughts?
Do Jews today have "kosher" clothes so to speak?
Lisa, Shalom! RE: (Even if the Virgin Mary & a big giant glowing cross are beaming out of it!) --
There are SO many things wrong with that statement I wouldn't know where to begin!
Now, if they were big, giant glowing CRUCIFIXES (with the body of Jesus on them), well ...
:-)
<><
Jim G., Shalom! You wrote:
That would seem problematic because Goliath lived after the flood. Unless of course these sources think that some in Noah's ark were descendants of Nephilim (which I highly doubt).
This is why I tend to avoid a literalist reading of Genesis. You run into problems that require "fixing", so you have some Hebrew scribe somewhere start writing about Lilith being the first husband of Adam, because she was mentioned somewhere else in Scripture. You also have to think that while G_D told them to bring stuff for them and the animals to eat, He said nothing about bringing something to plant. So after the ark landed, after the seven days, they would have opened the door to total, and I mean TOTAL devastation: no trees, no flowers, no grass, no nothing. Sure, the meat-eating animals can survive on the other animals, but what do the camels and giraffes who are lucky enough to escape from the lions and tigers and bears eat? (Maybe THAT's what happened to the unicorns! Offering themselves in noble sacrifice while the ducks make a break for it. Of course, I'm not sure if the unicorn would count as a clean or unclean beast.)
There's also the question of human corruption, period. While the Flood may have wiped out the genetic corruption of the Nephelin, there is still evil in man, because Noah's sons and grandsons grew to be the people who worshiped Ba'al and Maloch. Who is to say that one of them didn't offer a daughter or two to "the sons of heaven", thus recreating the Nephelin bloodline. I know that David selected five smooth stones before his fight with Goliath, because Goliath had four sons. I know it doesn't say anything about David fighting those sons, but is there anything that says what happened to those sons?
So I'm willing to view the Flood as a description of a localized disaster, but written in a way to send a message to us in the present day.
And yes, there are rules for observant Jews about blending fabrics. Since polyester is synthetic, though, I don't know how that fits in. Seriously, I think the bit about not putting on "a garment woven with two different kinds of thread," is both literal and figurative: Figurative in that it emphasizes the need to keep yourself pure and uncontaminated; literal in that such a garment could be sold as what it is not, and that it would be a poorer quality fabric.
<><
Jim C,
Your not only bright your funny!
'Pastor to presidents' replaced by gay bishop
Michigan Minister Sent to Prison for Warning Judge He Could be Tortured by God
How Shall We Live Under President-Elect Obama?
Shalom in Christ Jesus,
Moriel has been warning for some time that we would indeed again see a return of the violent roaming sodomite gangs as in the days of lot and that day is now.
To best understand this read Genesis 18:16 - 19:22 and Judges 19-21.
As this happened this past Sunday November 9th, I am reminded of the Book of Joel, to proclaim a solemn assembly and Habakkuk who asked the LORD why He used those who were more wicked than themselves to bring judgment:
Why do You make me see iniquity,
And cause me to look on wickedness? Yes, destruction and violence are before me;
Strife exists and contention arises.Therefore the law is ignored And justice is never upheld. For the wicked surround the righteous; Therefore justice comes out perverted.
- Habakkuk 1:3-4
This should be a wake up call and a taste of what more is to come unless the church does wake up and repent of her ways as this is indeed God's pattern of awaking, washing and refining - through afflictions and persecution.
... so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
- 1 Thessalonians 5:6
Scott Brisk
Oh Please Jim,
Don't tell me your a "Localized" disaster believer? (Actually I almost got convinced about that one myself-almost.)
There is so much scientific evidence for a Global Flood it's not even funny.
Why are there sea shells deposited in strata on high mountian tops all the way around the earth?
The information is available-so go check it out. There is no excuse to remain on the fence about these things.
BTW-the Nephilium situation came back again after the flood. (Satan doesn't give up that easily. A rather persistant fellow.)
Jim C & Alesia,
Any cat lover will like this one:
Slinky Cat
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
I guess whatever happened at the time happened afterwards as well, which is why God commanded Israel to wipe out certain peoples.
"Hey Lori, don't forget that we already are without spot and blemish...not because of anything we have or have not done, but because of what He has done for us."
That's the way I see it too, Donna.
List of articles covering this topic: Local Flood?
Supreme Moslem Council: Temple Mount is Jewish
(This was a poll form Perry Stone's site.)
MicroPoll
WHO IS DOING THE MOST DAMAGE TO AMERICA?
The liberal-secular television and journalistic media
18% 170
The liberal-socialist professors at our secular universities
3% 31
Ministers who refuse to preach truth which is creating ignorance in the church
52% 477
The liberal legislators in Washington who reject God's law to govern the nation
27% 248
Total Votes : 926
Ads proclaiming, "Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness' sake," will appear on Washington, D.C., buses starting next week and running through December.
Please know that I too understand that those who are in Christ are without spot and blemish because of His work on the cross, but - not all those who call themselves Christians are in Christ and without spot and blemish. This is so according to Jesus own words in Mt. 7:21-23..."Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom..." Persecution always weeds out the true from the fake.
If you think about it, pray for a gentleman named Jim I witnessed to today. I will see him next Thursday and he definitely would like to talk some more. He says he's a believer but he doesn't understand salvation by grace through faith alone.
A question;
How pure does the church have to be to be without spot or blemish? Also, does anyone think that is possible before the resurrection/rapture? I personally think that we will not be without blemish until we are gone from the flesh!
Maranatha!
Shalom, all! I just got a quick note from Rabbi Avremel:
Just to add to the discussion the commentaries suggest that Noach entered at the last moment and actually the waters pushed him in to the Ark. They derive this from verse seven the last few words.
The last few words are:
Noah went into the ark because of the waters of the flood.
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Jim C,
"Noah went into the ark because of the waters of the flood."
Yeah I looked at that @ thought:
Because he knew they were coming-(the floodwaters)& had great faith in God & the timing that was communicated to him.
or
Because Noah actually saw the flood waters rising & thought he better get in the Ark.
Here is a very cool end times radio site
Long Tom Radio
Watch this "Mystery of the 4 Passover cups" from Perry Stone.
It's new to me but mentions how the rapture is tucked in between Passover cup 3 & Passover cup 4 which also ties into the 4 Hallelujah’s in Revelation.
Which did bring to mind the two witnesses of Revelation & if they are Elijah & Moses returning-Well would you want to miss that? Could you imagine seeing the real deal? Moses & Elijah! Wouldn't you want to fly to Jersulem for that one?
Jim C,
If Noah waited till the last minute and the flood waters pushed him into the ark, it would seem that it would have pushed others into the ark too...more pondering...
gt,
Positionally speaking, those in Christ are perfect, without spot and blemish, right? Colossians 2:13 tells us He made us alive together with Him, having forgiven us all (100% word!) our transgressions. Practically speaking is another story however. Paul agonized over the battle he had with his new nature and the flesh and every genuine believer will, giving evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit. His convicting of sin continues even after salvation…and this battle will continue until we die or are glorified at the rapture.
Nate,
On the "Long Tom "radio link-I just listened to "Extra-the non-event of Rosh Hashanna 2008."
Did you listen to that? It was quite insightful. (And I love the speaker's accent!)
He explained why so many Christians felt the Holy Spirit call them out for this date & watch to see if He was coming.
It was because this had to happen
first.The Church collectively had never done this before & in order for there to be a "delay" in His coming there had to be an appointment 1st. The reason for the watching virgins w/ oil lamps full of the Holy Spirit & the tired virgins who then let their oil run out. We are in the "delay" period. (So the day nor hour we won't know yet we can see the time & season by remaining alert.)
He explaines more of the detail which is worth listening to.
Psssssst...Hyde's not looking so I put up a new post.
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