Men come and go; leaders, teachers, thinkers speak and work for a season, and then fall silent and impotent. He abides. They die, but He lives. They are lights kindled, and, therefore, sooner or later quenched; but He is the true light from which they draw all their brightness, and He shines for evermore.
- Alexander MacLaren -
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154 comments:
I'm first. Hahahahaha.
Lisa,
I just read your David W post. Thought it was excellent. Sobering times are ahead of us.
I just posted a new article to my blog comparing the Good Shepherd with the coming boastful shepherd/arrogant beast. Would love anyone's thoughts here on it.
Kathy
Sorry for my ill-mannered outburst on the previous post - the timing was bad for me. I had just been to another forum where conservative Christians were being ridiculed & put on the defensive about BO from liberal looneys.
I came to my safe haven cave & saw more of the same and blew a gasket, for this was the last place I expected to be put on the defensive.
My apologies.
The sad thing is that I know a number of Christians who said if they hadn't done their homework and actually read what Obama stood for they would have voted for him in a heart beat.
Donna
with all due respect, a number of us posted links in which Obama was called the Messiah, a personal savior, and leaders of the world saying that Obama would be the one to bring world peace. ALthough no one linked to it, there was also a woman who when interviewed said that if Obama was elected she wasn't going to have to ever worry about or pay care payments, house mortgage ever again. He also clearly stated on a number of occasions and even at one time there were posts on HIS website before the election on his plans to do away with laws restricting abortion and to broaden gay rights.
The juxtaposition of Lisa's post by Strom on Asa trusting God rather than man is exactly how I feel about Christian's voting for Obama
Lisa
great post and I totally agree. Seems you and I must be intolerant together. (ps I did catch the irony of your first statement or at least I would consider it irony based on the rest of your post)
Alesia Marge thanks
Lori
safe travel to you and yours.
Alesia
praying for your continued healing
Jib,
You caught it. No one could ever accuse you of not being quick witted. (:
Isn't that why we can give each other the big ole' head butt @ times? (:
Marge, I agree w/you.
I thought to myself-In order to not be a hypocrite I was actually going to do the "hypocrite" Bible study.
So I started w/the Jeremiah 7 passages but I can't read just scriptures mentioned. I have to read the entire chapter to understand the full meaning.
So I get to verse 7:15 "And I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brethren the whole posterity of Ephraim."
16) Therefore do no pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you."
Here is the commentary from Chuck Smith: " It's Too Late. This is a heavy statement. God told Jeremiah not to pray for the people anymore. Don't intercede for them. Don't cry out in prayer for them because I will not hear you. It is possible for people to go so far in their rebellion against God that they come to a hopeless state where God says to them, "Don't pray anymore; don't intercede; I will not listen."
The reason why God became so angry was because the people were trusting in "Lying Words." verse 8) "Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit. Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know (Obama follows a god we do not know. It's one of his own creation.), and then you then come & stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, "We are delivered to do all these abominations?....(This is speaking of the hypocrisy.)
It seems through His prophets that we are still to pray for the misguided & lost @ this point in time but I wonder if some day we will hear "That's enough!" or if action of the rapture of the Church will say it?"
Well..sorry about that! I didn't mean to rile people up!
I didn't mean to come across as chastising anyone either.
I just don't see the terrible, horrible person others seem to see in him. I am just not filled with the hate towards him that others seem to feel.
I feel more comfortable with the things prophecy central has to say about him and the whole situation in general.
And yes I guess I do tend to be more tolerant. I am more into love the sinner but hate the sin.
I just may be totally off base on my tolerance of this. I am keeping an eye opened in all directions.
I really did not mean to upset anyone with expressing these thoughts! Sorry about that!
Donna,
PLEASE, PLEASE read the article linked below if you haven't yet. I think it may help you to understand where many of us are coming from.
Randy Alcorn -- I'm not Voting for a Man, I'm Voting for Generations of Children and their Right to Live
(I think a link to this article was posted here before the election. It's still worth reading though.)
Donna, I know you are outnumbered on this, but please don't get discouraged and leave. I just don't want to see us lose any more of our cave members due to strong disagreements. We need you.
Donna,
I don't think the majority of us who are Anti-Obama sympathizers hate him & think he's terrible.
I don't hate him at all. In fact he's no different than many other misguided people I know.
The guy is glib and likeable. We're we not all lost at one time?
I just think the guy is lost & has no fear of YHWH. He does not know God & therefore does not have a solid foundation. There is no hate involved just a grave concern for "Christians" who don't see what is wrong in supporting his twisted values. It's the case of the blind following the blind.
A young girl was helping me pack the other day & mentioned "her mother" was really into Christianity. Then she made the comment that Obama was "a Christian." Now I didn't ask her if that's what her mother thought, but the Roman Catholic Lady & I set her straight on that one. I wasn't mean-I just told her Obama is a fraud.(blunt enough?) We both pointed out what his stand was on Biblical issues & that they were Anti-Biblical.
I really liked this young gal. They were one's I told about the Nephilim & UFO rapture theory when they were packing up my house.(This is one sure way to be remembered!)
The RRC woman: "I'm not going to say they don't exist but unless I have to actually deal w/it then I'm not going to give it much thought." Then when she spoke of her faith it was very much into tradition & mass.
The Young lady was quite interested in the subject because she had actually seen a UFO before. She explained how it lit up and darted back & forth across the sky. (So I e-mailed her some prophecy links)
**Neither one had heard of the Nephilim in the Bible.
But anyway-I'm getting off track. We get so riled up not because of "Obama" per se but because so many of our fellow Brothers & Sisters are trusting in someone who will lead them further astray.
This is what has us crazed. Not the person of Obama. He's no different than the typical worldview held by the majority today.
Thanks for sending the link, JIm, I will check it out.
Thanks for the explanation, Lisa.
And thank you for the kind words, Anne, I really appreciate it.
It is suprising the attacks I've recieved over this whole thing, I have to say.
Donna,
I came back to see what was being discussed.
Hey, no one is mad at you.
I agree, that Obama is a likable guy. Much like JFK, in fact.
But you have to look at what the Bible says is sin. How could a believer in Jesus Christ vote for someone that has such liberal views concerning Gay Rights, Abortion, etc.? I am still shaking my head over some Christians that voted for him.
Anyhow, it's good to live in peace with one another :)
BTW, I don't hate him, either. I will pray that God gives him (Obama) wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
And we should all agree, in prayer, for his salvation, too.
I don’t think anyone here hates Obama – at least they had better not. I personally hate what he stands for from my own observations. As Christians we should pray for him - as James White advised on Kathy’s link a few posts back. I have and I know Alesia does on a daily basis.
Shalom, all!
Wanted to turn you over to a blogger I've come to read frequently, Courtney, aka, "GreatSatan'sGirlfriend" (where Israel is the "Little Satan" and America is the "Great Satan"). In her post on the Mumbai Massacre, she makes an excellent observation and conparison to the Beslan school massacere -- this wasn't done by a truck bomb or anything like that. This was a military operation, an invasion where multiple armed men struck multiple soft targets in order to cause as much confusion, panic, and terror as possible.
Our local Lubavacher rabbi knew the rabbi and wife that were executed in Mumbai (aka Bombay). I'm praying for them and their family.
<><
Oh, and I thought you all (but especially Grany) would find this interesting:
Expert: Small Ark. earthquakes could be warning
Maybe there are a few as-yet-undiscovered faults in Arkansas?
<><
Shalom, all! Here's a short film that I hope gets wide distribution!
Film Review: Volition - A Film that Demands a Radical Choice
Behind the Scenes of Volition: Coincidences and Startling Circumstances
SOMEONE really wanted this film to be made!
<><
I left this post as the last one on the previous thread so wasn't sure if you read it.
Also, Donna. I appreciate your thoughts and insight, thank you for sharing! No, I don't hate Obama either. I agree with the others on how he is a likeable guy.
Jim C. Been to satansgirlfiend before through radarsite. Here is the address if you have not been before www.radarsite.blogspot.com
Hey all who are commenting on the Obama thing. Great reading here!
Lisa, you mentioned that we are a nation of Christians who do not know the bible or God really and that it was all just about saying that "sinners prayer" mindset. I so agree with all you said there. That is why I am so blown away with my own brother being for Obama. he is in seminary! He studies the original language of the scriptures! He has poured his life into campus ministry and now church building. I am literally sick about this.
I have felt so sad with the knowledge of what is to come on the church and how blinded people that I love are. It is really too much to even think about most of the time but this thing with my brother has me really knocked for a loop! How can someone who loves Jesus be for a person who is for abortion? People might argue that no one is really "for" abortion but if one votes in favor of it and promises to do away with laws meant to protect our teen girls from themselves then that person is "for" abortion. I just cannot wrap my mind around this because it is my own brother.
Oh, and I completely agree with praying for Obama. I know that God sets up rulers and kings. So, I do not agree with him and think he has an antichrist spirit about him but I will still pray for him.
Blessings to you all!
Diana
Jim,
I thought the same thing when the India attack happened. I thought about its tie to the Beslan incident. If not a tie..... similarities. Like the thought that maybe these two incidents are rehearsals for something unimaginable that could take place in the US. Of course, since I teach school that is always in the back of my mind.
Houston had several big buses go missing last year (stolen) and no one seems to know what happened to them or ever recovered them. That still bothers me. Also, school security is up to each individual district. So it boils down to what the parents demand for their children and how "in touch" their school board is.
That impregnated feeling of something "wicked this way comes" is in the air for me. Keep praying all and keep looking up.
I have noticed that O has been unusually quiet during all the India problems......interesting.
Fighting the good fight,
Jenny
Diana,
There are some great articles written on Christians voting for Obama and comparing this action to a Biblical view-examples of what happened in times past.
Have you emailed any of these to your brother?
Technical head knowledge of the Bible & submitting yourself to the will of God are not the same.(Of course we are suppose to strive for both.)
He may be missing a crucial key in all of his studies-therefore his "spiritual eyes" may not be opened to see things how God views them.
Remember what Jesus said to the Scibes & Pharisees? They were the most well studied peoples of their times yet they didn't want or could not see that Jesus was the promised Messiah. He didn't fit into their presumed idea of who He should be & spoke against their traditions.
So on one hand it's hard to believe your brother would support a man like Obama but on the other hand it's no different than times past. We still do the same dumb things now as they did 1000's of years ago. "Nothing is new under the sun"
I was reading the "courier-journal" & writers mulling over the Rev.Wright/Obama affiliation.(Giant Red Flag!-their conscience had kicked in) and rationalizing how Obama could have chose him as his pastor. There was no mention of the Gay agenda or Pro-Abortion stance. I guess it's a non-issue to these people. Here are some quotes:
John Schenkenfelder :"What U.S. needs is a problem solver."
"It seems peculiar at this time in our country's troubled history that we'd allow a millisecond to judge a candidate's religious affiliation. Elected leaders have far more important matters to consider and a host of complex problems that need fixing. The list comes quickly to mind: war, recession, deficits, health care, bank failures, job loss, inflation, deflation, foreclosure, dollar devaluation, terrorists, etc."
Mike DiGiuro:"Racial divide is the key"
"Barack Obama's current predicament is more about the racial divide in America than about religion or patriotism."
"The fact that Reverend Wright's comments are so outrageous to most white Americans, and not outrageous at all to many black Americans, shows that we have a significant number of unconvinced black people."
"I think many white Americans forgot that Obama was black. It remains to be seen if reminding them that he is black will be a benefit or a detriment to his campaign."
Sue Barlow:"Judge Obama for himself."
"Barack Obama is not responsible for the words of his pastor."
"Of course, closing our eyes won't change the underlying true biographical details about Barack Obama, but somehow along the line, it may open our minds to embrace the differences of mankind and not degrade them because we fear a name, a heritage or the color of one's skin."
So basically there are two Pro-Obama arguments. #1 there are more pressing issues to worry about than Obama's associations & #2 If you are weary of Obama you must be a racist.
(This type of reasoning is a distraction from looking into the truth of why Obama had befriended these unsavory “characters” & the accusations against those who do view Obama’s associations seriously is so absurd it's
almost laughable.)
Lisa,
Regarding the Jeremiah 7 scriptures, you're right. God told Jeremiah not to pray, but we haven't received any such instructions from Him.
Angie
JIM C. one of those quakes in Arkansas was just about 35 miles to the east of Ft. Smith and some of the people I used to work with have written to me about it. Seems the quake was just strong enough to be felt but one woman said her cave (cellar for tornado retreats) fell into itself and her horses were absolutely frantic. The other odd thing is, the farm animals won't go near the barn where they have been sheltered all of the past years.
Now that is almost a direct east to west flow line from New Madrid Fault and now Hubby tells me Oklahoma has its' own minor faults and the land mass in various areas is considered very unstable. A lot of shale, which is most always associated with coal and oil deposits are shattered all over Oklahoma and yet these faults don't just run in those areas. Oh, by the way, one of his degrees is in Geology with a major in Hydrology, which he used in helping to design large cities water systems in Illinois, Indiana and Oklahoma.
The story God is revealing is much more interesting than anything humans can think up to write about. Do you suppose we are just now starting the first chapter after all of these years?
Donna, I missed the dialog from the previous posting. I did go back and read them though and you kinda put your foot in it, didn't you. By this time you have to realize that none of us are going to stand by and be "yes sir" people in any manner. I believe we have indeed elected (but I didn't vote for him) a man who, in his present state, is unsaved, has a hidden agenda and is very, very intelligent. He is being guided by Lord only knows who, and yet I have a great hope in God's redeeming grace for this man. What God can do in Obama's heart is nothing short of miraculous but please don't consider that Obama is all that he tries to appear to be.
The only person any of us should be putting our trust and hope in is God, our heavenly father. To think that Obama or any other man or woman or party can accomplish real change in humans or situations is foolishness, pure and simple. I believe the Democratic party is in need of a great surgeon and the sooner the better. I feel I can say this simply because I came from a very long line of solid leading Democrats from back in the earliest days. The Democrats of those days have become known as the conservatives or are now joined to the Republican party but if we don't guard ourselves vigorously, the same misguided rhetoric will destroy the Republican party also.
You see, the whole thing is, in the days I was a kid, the Democrats were the working class of people and didn't depend on anyone to fix their problems. They worked and they worked hard. Then along came the Unions and the beginning of terrorism on a different scale. Yeah, I was the grand daughter of one of the men who brought in the Union to the Maytag Company so don't get your bowels in an uproar. But you have to understand, when you accept a job for a certain amount of money, the terms are there for your accepting or rejecting the job offer. The company really doesn't owe you anything other than fair wages for honest labor.
I am not going to do a run bye narrative on the union history in the USA. There is good that came out of the movement, and I know that for a fact, but there was and is a lot of corruption and lawlessness involved also.
But back to the Democrats being linked to labor. The Republicans were considered those stiff necked Wall Street tycoons and totally the enemy of labor. Big Money. But, then along came the likes of the McCarthy era and George McGovern gang for the Demos. Things started changing and truthfully, one of the reasons that the great elections of the past 3 decades was less than enthusiastic is the ilk that the parties presented as candidates for President, Senate and Congress. The only thing different was the color of the cellophane that wrapped the sucker.
So, we fast forward to this day and it is just the same old story with a new twist. Only this time we have the very serious condition lurking in all of the dark areas of our nation; Terrorist! You can bash John, Henry, and Bill but you best leave George alone. George will bring the cavalry after every wanna be terrorist he can get his hands on and if you don't think so, you need to read Bob Woodward's newest book.
Other than that, I would remind you that no man on earth is going to bring salvation to this nation or to the world government. No matter how great they are, God is not going to Share His Glory with Any man, woman or child. One of the final phases of history will be the failure of governments. But in the meantime, we will be fighting for Barack Hussein Obama's soul on a daily, ferrous battle ground and until he is totally saved by the Blood of the Lamb, and shouting the victory this battle will continue.
Love you Donna,
Grany
Troops search India hotel after rampage ends
Report: Militants aimed to kill 5,000 people in attack to rival Sept. 11 President-elect Barack Obama said he was closely monitoring the situation. "These terrorists who targeted innocent civilians will not defeat India's great democracy, nor shake the will of a global coalition to defeat them," he said in a statement.
There were two Nashville ladies there in the attack & got shot. One owns a Yoga/Meditation studio & the other is an author/illustrator. They were there w/a group of 25 Americans attending a spiritual retreat w/Synchronicity-a VA area ashram, or meditation community.
They were at the Oberoi luxury hotel. "Within two minutes, they were on us." She said the gunmen kept firing, and at least a dozen bodies fell to the floor. "There were bodies everywhere. I felt like I was in a movie."
"Veragona dragged herself past the bodies & into the restaurant kitchen, where employees were huddled for safety...."
This could be some type of "rehersal" but they sure missed their mark of 5000 dead. I wonder how they will modify their plan the next time to reach their goal.
(I keep thinking a hit on a place like "Disneyland" would really get at the heart of America.)
Lisa, rehearsal for sure! They have learned a lot and I am concerned that our famous Western movies have given them lots of ideas for their attacks.
I have always felt that the Murrah building in Okie City was a trial run with Al Qaeda the designing agent. What people don't realize is the great influx of radicals into the rural country side of the USA. We think of cities but believe me there are many of this group living in rural areas and not gaining any attention whatsoever. They give new meaning to the term "Survivalist" and should give us cause for concern.
Grany
Grany,
Your last paragraph is a great reminder for all of us
May God's richest blessings be upon all!
Angie,
Agreed. We need to stay in a spirit of prayer, for our country.
* last paragraph in your previous post :)
This news is unreal:
Cops hunt Wal-Mart shoppers after worker dies
Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were acting like "savages."
"When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling `I've been on line since yesterday morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."
2 dead after shooting in crowded Toys 'R' Us Ray Turner, 20, said he was two aisles away when two women began shouting and screaming at each other and he had a clear view of the fight until a crowd clustered around them. Both women had children, he said.
Palm Desert Councilman Jim Ferguson said police told him two men with handguns shot and killed each other.
"Our understanding is that this act seems to have been the result of a personal dispute between the individuals involved."
Jim C. Are there any conversations @ your Catholic forum re:Women Priests?
This is an accurate perspective on the voting view of the Religious Right (What we were just discussing.)This man was speaking of the "Old Guard" which upholds Abortion & the Gay agenda as important verses the "New" up & comers who have "moved on" and now view global warming,social issues,the economy & other things as relevant. (Basically, the Old guards are out dated.)
Good news Lisa! If the Old Guard is outdated then so is abortion, Homosexual life styles and all that goes with the Outdated Old Guard! Yippeee!
Now, I have an important announcement to make, with this conclusion of the Old Guard, Old Barack Hussein Obama is outdated also. Another Yippppeeeee !
Hi..I thought some of you might be interested in reading this article that seems to say what I hear many Christians from this part of the country say.
It is a very different mind set than the conservative religious right that is so commonly found in the south and elsewhere.
I think it is good to try to understand where others may be coming from.
Grany, thank you for your message. I will spend time reading it and reading the link Jim G sent and other comments as well.
Donna,
Wow, that was a really great article you linked to. Thanks!
I do get tired of the thinking that we have to put a stop to gay marriage. They are of the world, what should we expect? But, abortion, in my opinion, is different. Those are people being murdered. I can understand where the author of the article is coming from though. I actually did not vote for president, only the lower offices.
Thanks again for the link, I may understand my brother a little better!
Oh, and Lisa, I just sent an e-mail to my brother asking him to explain why he chose Obama. I really want to know. I also stated, in a very loving, sisterly way, that his education may actually end up being a hinderance to his spirit. He seems to put way too much emphasis on knowing the original Greek in the NT than on asking the Lord to teach us and allowing the Holy Spirit to change us and speak to us. Very interesting topics though!
Diana
Donna,
Wow, is all I can say about that article!
And you really think this is another valid view?
Again, I pray, may God have mercy on our country.
BTW, I live in (western) WA. State, which is the least churched county in America, according to the Polls taken about a year ago. Pierce Co.
I'm sorry Donna, but that was a messed up article. Also, I'm from northern Ohio & about as right-wing conservative as they come (far from being one of them "southerners" you always refer to)
Diana - Check out this video it may completely change your opinion on same sex marriages. Very frightening, but true.
If it only affected the same sex couple, that would be one thing - but it would affect us all.
BTW - thank you Jib & Marge!
I am feeling better everyday - just a much longer recovery than I would like.
Nate - It's worth something - thanks bro.
Grace - I still owe you an email, but I plan on writing a novella & haven't had the time, yet.
Grany - how's Jim's eyes?
Donna,
Thanks for posting that article from Mr. Wade. I read it. Oh my! Where do I begin? It was so full of misinformation, half truths, and poor reasoning.
Anthony Wade stated:
The organized church has long held the notion and belief that we should be voting for the candidate that most closely represents our values or beliefs. This has been a sham. You must understand that while we believe what we believe in the church, the world is entirely different. The world of politics is inherently corrupt. There is simply no escaping it. The desire for power and money take precedent over values and beliefs. It is a fairy tale to assume that we will elect a Christian who will not be inherently corrupt. In 2000 we elected someone who claimed the mantle of Christianity and eight years later we see the destruction left from the presidency of George W. Bush.
1. In my experience, the term “organized church” is almost always used in a pejorative sense. I have found that those who employ this term are almost always people who (a) don’t attend church regularly (b) want to be perceived as caring about God and religion (c) and want to act like they love and know God (d) don’t love the Bride of Christ or God’s Word and (e) gravitate towards only Scriptures that they like and ignore or reject much of the Bible. I’m afraid that Anthony Wade, through his own words, reinforced my view of people who refer to the “organized church”
2. I don’t think that the organized church has long held the notion and belief that we should be voting for the candidate that most closely represents our values or beliefs. I would say that Christians (true followers of Christ) believe that we should vote for the candidate we believe will lead, rule, and administer the affairs of this nation according to what God has declared in His Word is righteous and good and true and wise. Maybe it’s a fine point, but the standard that we strive for is not “our values or beliefs.” It is the Lord God Almighty’s truths. And His truths are not a sham and it is not a sham to desire righteous leaders.
3. Of course the church and the world are entirely different. But that doesn’t mean that Christians should abandon any attempt to influence it. In fact, the church’s influence in this world has been amazingly good. Hospitals, universities, orphanages, and outreaches to the downtrodden and outcast have all had their origins in the church. When the world has seeped into these institutions, is when they have degenerated and lost their savor (or should I say Savior). There are plenty of examples of godly statesman (politicians) who have served this country well. Teddy Roosevelt is an excellent example. All men are flawed and have weaknesses. Even King David failed the Lord and Israel when he sinned. But God still used him. If indeed Mr. Wade’s premises that “the world of politics is inherently corrupt and there is simply no escaping it and the desire for power and money take precedent over values and beliefs” are true premises, then I’d suggest that it is, to use Mr. Wade’s words, “a fairy tale to assume” Barrack Obama is an exception.
4. Interestingly, despite his rhetoric that values don’t matter, Mr. Wade seems to argue that he rejects Mr. McCain and embraces Mr. Obama on the basis of things that Mr. Wade values. His arguments are inconsistent at best and hypocritical at worst.
5. I’m not sure what “destruction” Mr. Wade is talking about for which he blames presidency of George W. Bush. If you listen to people who have fought to make Iraq free, and talk to Christians who have and continue to minister in the Middle East, the United States have brought much good and hope to Iraq. The destruction has come from the Al-Qaeda and groups that hate Christians and Jews.
6. To say “The GOP has no intention of ever overturning Roe versus Wade…” is simply false. The GOP had a very strong pro-life platform and McCain is much more pro-life Obama when judged by (1) their voting records, (2) their stated positions, and (3) their views on the Constitution and how judges should interpret it.
7. I don’t have time to dissect and critique all that is in Mr. Wade’s article. It is so full of falsehoods. He has bought into the spirit of this world. I would not consider him a brother in the Lord. The spirit behind the things he says is not the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and inspired those who penned Holy Scriptures.
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people.
Sorry for all the typos. Hopefully you can get the gist of what I was trying to say.
"I know that Obama is not a secret Muslim, refuses to wear a flag pin, wont say the pledge, wants to take God off of the currency, knew someone 10 years ago who was a domestic terrorist 40 years ago, or supports infanticide and partial birth abortions. These are lies." (Oh really? Prove that they aren't.)
"I will not be used by people who wrap Christ around lies while they try to convince me to vote my Christian conscience. " (I guess you don't have one.)
"I cannot vote for someone who cares so little for life...(Oh really then? What do you call one who's pro-murder Abortion?)"My bible tells me I cannot support that. I just can’t." (Excuse me? You can't but you are.)
"It is as if there is nothing else going on in the world that matters to God." (They ALL matter to God.)
"Jesus Christ charged us with bringing the Gospel to a lost world. (Yes & what does it say in the Gospel? Murders & homosexuals will end up in Hell.) That was the Great Commission. That does not mean we are to bring our morality to the world but the love of Jesus Christ.(True we don't bring "our morality" we bring "God's morality! Do I sense the "American" Jesus here?" All love and no condemnation?)
"Even if you were able to succeed in your plans to stop all abortions in the world and stop all gays from marrying; you have accomplished nothing." (Really? How about upholding God's statues & saving the lives of babies God formed in the womb?)
"Based upon what we believe, they all would still be going to hell because of their separation from God." (That's great logic. They are going to hell anyway so who cares?)
"The Great Commission replaced by what man feels is more of a moral imperative." (It's man who doesn't care about unborn babies & gay rights not God. And who gave up on the Great Commission? The Christians I know certainly have not. We are called to be multi-taskers! You can fulfill the Great Commission & proclaim truth all at the same time.)
"We need to stop trying to bring the morality of Christianity to people and get back to the red letters in the bible." (So we should stop being the salt & light in a dying world? Red letters? The LOVE of Jesus? It's only part of the whole which will send these people on the straight road to Hell. Now that's compassion! not!)
"Get back to bringing the world the love of Jesus Christ." (Love is balanced out with Judgment.)
Yes this logic is really messed up but Your're right-we should be aware of the mindset & stear them back to the Word of God. His entire council-not just the picked out "Love" verses.
The only thing I found may be true was" "The desire for power and money take precedent over values and beliefs. It is a fairy tale to assume that we will elect a Christian who will not be inherently corrupt." But that does not mean we throw in the towel & do nothing.
(BTW-I'm a So.Cal girl all the way & the Christians from my Church there are like minded in California. So I don't think it's a "Southern" thing. More of a "Following God's council" thing.)
What I find interesting in this whole discussion to is this...it was said in the article that the GOP has no intention of overturning Roe V Wade. There are many politicians who are against abortion and would like to see it overturnedbut it does get complicated. Mt brother's argument was that Obama would not even have the power to overturn it. However, I told him that it really is a matter of character. How can one vote for a man who has the kind of stand on abortion that he does? That is my question to the Christians who did vote for him. I think we are desensitised to what abortion really is. How one can claim "but there are so many other issues..." unless one is really not seeing just how evil and what an abomination abortion is to God.
I will never understand completely how one can really love Jesus and be "for" him but yet also be "for" someone else who exhibits the antichrist spirit.
I am gald to have read the article though, it was well written in that I understand what the arguments are. I can discuss it better with my brother.
Diana
Lisa,
It was just recently that I discovered that the Jesus I thought of was really the "American Jesus". I do not think that one can fathom His love without first knowing of His condemnation and His hatred for sin. When we know what we are saved from that makes it so much more meaningful!
Diana
Alesia, it is great seeing you name posted here and I am still praying and believing for your complete and total healing, quicker! Jim's left eye is having some serious problems. He had glaucoma diagnosed prior to the cataract surgery and the medical drops that he had to use reduced the pressure to a really great level. Then he had the surgery and now the eye is giving him fits. Pressure is up to over 20 again and he is now having to up his dosage to combat it. However, he is going to be fine because God knows we need at least one set of good healthy eyes to see what we are doing on a daily basis. He has pretty eyes and I don't want anything to happen to them except wonderful things. Thank you for asking. I appreciate it.
DONNA, surely you jest! I am a northerner, born in Iowa poked around in Chicago, Philly and NYC and I can't believe anyone is searching so desperately hard to find an excuse for a lack of Christian discernment in politics. For crying outloud, that is the biggest bag of cow piles I have ever seen and yes, they have cow piles in NY State also. Maybe that person needs to find their Christian Identity first and then come back with a better diagnosis of what causes supposedly intelligent people to make such stupid remarks.
As far as LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that is one of those Outdated Group Idealogies. Brought to the max in Woodstock and Slick Willie Clinton's era. God does love us but he hates sin and maybe the real problem is a simple misunderstanding of the word and meaning of SIN! My favorite billboards are of this character: "WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT SIN NOT?" There are at least 100 of them and it pretty well states what I am feeling about now.
But girl, you go ahead and enjoy your Democratic victory while you can. But don't forget, you need to take time to pray for your elected officials along with the rest of us, southern Bible Thumping Believers who think life begins with inception and it was Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and not Mike and John!
I want you to remember something if you never remember anything else, where the Dead Sea is today used to be a couple of thriving communities until they got turned to a salt plain. Their sin was removed from the sight of God and it was out of LOVE that He did it!
Grany
My brother in law has been here for a couple of days and will be here for another day...after which time I will read all of these posts.
I did not go thru that guys post with a fine tooth comb or anything, but the ghist (sp?) of it is what many folks are thinking, like it or not.
Diana, let us know what your brother has to say when (if) he responds.
I would like to think that we are all "above" politics...or rather that He is above politics.
For the record, I am not for gay marriage and obviously am not for abortion.
I found this interesting in regards to the abortion issue. The following is from the Preface to The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass.
Reader! are you with the man-stealers [slaveholders] in sympathy and purpose, or on the side of their down-trodden victims? If with the former, then are you the foe of God and man. If with the latter, what are you prepared to do and dare in their behalf? Be faithful, be vigilant, be untiring in your efforts to break every yoke, and let the oppressed go free. Come what may—cost what it may—inscribe on the banner which you unfurl to the breeze, as your religious and political motto—"NO COMPROMISE WITH SLAVERY! NO UNION WITH SLAVEHOLDERS!"
WM. LLOYD GARRISON BOSTON,
May 1, 1845.
Jim C, the Volition film is very good, actually amazing considering it was done by such young people. I've passed it on to others.
Signs in the Sky????
Maybe this Monday Night-Dec. 1st
A must read:
msnbc.msn.com/id/27958792
"Venus and Jupiter will "Shine" on Monday Night....." was quite surprised to find this on msnbc.
Check out what design the crescent moon and the two stars make??!!
Even Western Europe gets a show. I wonder how many UFO people go nuts on this one??? I'll be looking up for sure.
Jenny
Hey all my brothers and sisters in Christ,
My godly 90 y.o. grandmother went home a few days ago. She had been bedridden for about a year so it was a great relief to her I'm sure. I can't imagine what joy she has now, and a new body to boot. But pray for me, as some of my distant relatives and a few cousins are not believers, that I have the opportunity to bring up her and our faith.
Second, I've been listening to Chuck Missler's new 66/40 weekly briefing on the origin of evil, a must hear, I might add. Something struck me during one of his many digressions. I think I know in part wherefore comes the urgency we all feel in our spirits. It is the Holy Spirit, of course, but why now and not two years ago? Because the long war is about to come to an end.
Remember in 2 Kings 6 :17, the spiritual warfare that Elisha prayed to let his servant see? Well, imagine if that kind of battle was going 2600 yrs ago, how much more now. The fallen one knows his time is quickly running out, and you can bet he's on a major offensive. Don't forget Ephesians 6, we are all warriors against more than flesh and blood. So, keep ALL your armor and the sword ready, because what we feel, I believe, is the battle call of the Holy Spirit Himself, telling us to wake up and get ready to pray and fast, and use all our armor and weapons for the last battle we may have to face. Looking forward to seeing you all soon when we all get home.
In His Grip,
Scott
Grany, Shalom! re: your message of November 29, 2008 9:49 AM:
As soon as I saw the title of that news article, my first thought was New Madrid. I was VERY surprised to learn that they didn't have any permanent sensors in the central part of the state. For some reason, I thought Arkansas's diamond industry would warrant at least one. Given your friend's experience, I'd say the days of the root cellar storm shelter are over. Time to break out the back hoe and bury herself a galvanized steel tube. BTW, is the problem with the farm animals not wanting to go into the barn, is that a problem only since the earthquake, or did she have problems earler?
And a question for Jim, if he's up to it: the Venitians (from Venice, Italy, not the planet) used to build filtered water sytems for their public wells. There would be grates around the well that would let rainwater flow into them. Below the grates were pits of sand, shaped like cones pointing to the bottom of the wells. The water would flow down through the sand, getting filtered, until it reached the bottom of the cone. There, the Venitians put a metal mesh to keep out the sand but let the water through. It would be this filtered water that the citizens would use.
My question is how well (no pun intended) would this system work today? How often would you have to replace the sand?
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Scott, you made me smile when you mentioned Chuck Missler's digressions. I was just talking to Alesia about him today. I love the way (most times anyway) he digresses from a subject and provides so much more info than one might expect. Anyway, thanks for the post. I totally agree that we are are in the midst of spiritual warfare and we need to pray and fast and put on that armour NOW.
Maranatha!
Lisa, Shalom! You asked if there were any conversations on the Cathlolic Answers Forum about Women Priests.
Yeah, you might say that.
Here are some of the threads on the subject that have been active just within the past two weeks:
Women and Ordination (In the "Catholic Living > Vocations" subforum)
Excommunication looms for American Maryknoll active in 'Womanpriest' rites (I like the comment by the original poster, "Comparing the priesthood to a job is like comparing a car to a tomato." "Maryknoll" is a missionary order of priests and nuns. This is in the "In The News > Catholic News" subforum.)
Why wasn't Jesus a woman? (In the "Apologetics" forum)
St. Louis woman becomes world's first Catholic priest to give birth (In the "In The News > Secular News" subforum. This is a sensationalist story. You have to read halfway through the story to find out she's not Roman Catholic, but part of the "Ecumenical Catholic Communion" The original link to the story in the thread is now broken. Here is a permanent link.)
These are just the threads dealing directly with the issue. That "Womanpriest" organization is really raising a ruckus. I tried watching the link you provided, and had to stop after only 30 seconds. It REALLY jerked my chain when the news guy started out by linking this issue to a priest shortage in the US. (FYI -- there's only a priest shortage in the US and Europe. In Africa, Eastern Europe, and any other place where Christians have been persecuted there is no shortage of priests.)
The long and short of it is that Jesus did not consecrate any women as He did with the male disciples. There's no record of any women being consecrated during the early part of the Church or at ANY time in the Church. If such a thing had been practiced, there might be justification for bringing it back now. But without such historical precedent, the Vatican does not have the authority to declare that women can be priests.
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BTW, if anyone wants to join in the discussion after reading those links, go ahead and create a user account and join in. There's no cost, and (as you might guess from some of the posts) you don't have to be Catholic to join in. In fact, I'd say between one-third and one-half of the posters there are not Roman Catholic.
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Jenny, Shalom! I had to read to the bottom of the article (about Venus, Jupiter, and the Moon all appearing together) to find out what you meant.
As beautiful as the view of Venus, Jupiter and the moon will be from North America, an even more spectacular sight awaits those living in parts of Western Europe where the moon will pass in front of Venus.
Astronomers refer to this phenomenon as an "occultation," taken from the Latin word "occultÄ re," which means "to conceal."
This eye-catching sight will be visible in complete darkness across much of Eastern Europe. Farther west, Venus will disappear behind the dark part of the moon either during evening twilight or just before the Sun sets.
When Venus emerges, it will look like a brightening jewel on the slender lunar crescent. For virtually all of Europe, the Sun will have set by then, the exception being southern Portugal (including Lisbon).
Wow. There are ALL SORTS of meanings I can find in this part of the article.
First of all, there are all sorts of stuff about the Moon and Venus that are supposed to be related to the origin of Islam, related to ancient Arab moon worship. I'm not qualified to comment on any of these stories, so that's all I'm going to say about them. However, the word "occultation" is the same word used to describe what has happened to the 12th Inman: He has not left the world, but is now "occultated". His coming is not so much a return as becoming visible to the world. We now have the Moon "occultating" Venus, with the result that Venus and the Moon will form the Star and Crescent moon that is the sign of Islam.
Note that this occultation will take place "in complete darkness across much of Eastern Europe." This would include the western part of Russia, where Islam is growing so fast, that Russia is preparing to become a full member of the Organization of Islamic States. Then, in the darkness over Europe the occultation ends, and Venus re-appears, coming out from the West. Could this be a sign that the 12th Inman is preparing to be revealed, and to be revealed coming from the West?
This last part has me going all Catholic, so don't freak out. One of the predictions made at Fatima, Portugal, is that Portugal would be protected from the evil that will come upon Europe in the end times. Here, we have the Star and Crescent Moon shining brightly over all Europe, unimpeded by the Light of the Sun, except in southern Portugal (including Lisbon)! This would also include Fatima, Portugal.
Like I said. Wow.
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Thanksgiving Message from Father John Corapi, SOLT:
Every Thanksgiving we are reminded to do for at least one day what should be a constant dimension of our spiritual life: Give Thanks. The prayer of thanksgiving is one of the major forms of prayer, along with adoration, reparation, intercession, and impetration (asking for what we need) to name some of the major categories of prayer.
This year, as always, we should count our blessings whoever we are and wherever we are. In the United States of America we should carefully and clearly think of what makes this country great, the essentials that were there from the beginning and that define what we are. By the same token, we should carefully, clearly, and courageously define what is not part of the true fabric of our nation's very essence. Things that have become an everyday part of American life threaten to destroy the real country, the one the Founding Fathers founded on Christian principles. Anti-human realities such as abortion, euthanasia, fetal stem cell research, human cloning, pornography, and homosexual sexual relations-all of these are foreign to what this country is about and always was about. We should thank God for this, for if this were not true we would have ceased to exist long ago.
God has to be first in our lives, not economic prosperity. If you are right with God, the economic factor will fall into place. If not, then greed, fraud, deceit, and every vice under the sun will rule. No one will trust the government, the corporate world, the professions, etc. The moral unraveling precedes the ultimate unraveling of a nation or a world. Chaos is the inevitable result, and death follows close behind.
Immorality is un-American, and a threat to national security. I said that right after 911, and it is more true than ever. In my lifetime I have experienced the moral erosion of our national consciousness. It's as if large segments of the population had some portion of their brain removed or their eyes blinded. We should recall that all of the 'old ways' are not inferior to some of the 'new ways.' We must likewise recall that 'God's ways are not our ways. God's ways are as far above our ways as the heavens are above the earth. God can't indeed write straight with crooked lines. He can bring good out of the worst evil, not that the evil should be accepted or countenanced, but when we've done all we can do to fight the evil, know that we haven't lost. Jesus Christ is the 'Lamb of God,' and 'Prince of Peace' to be sure, but don't ever forget that He is also 'the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.' The violence and power with which God himself will confront and destroy the evil that threatens us far surpasses anything we could do.
So, this Thanksgiving 'thank God for God!' God is in charge! Don't forget that. God is all-good, all-merciful, all-loving, and all-powerful. He will fight the enemies of what is true and good. 'If God is for you, who can be against you!' Thank God for your faith and your family, your health and your wealth-no matter how large or small. The spirit of thanksgiving makes a heavy heart lighter. It'll clear your head of a thousand worries and concerns. One thing alone is important: your personal relationship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If that is right you will be right. If that is right, the entire world can be sinking into hell under the weight of its sins and misery, you will fly above the turmoil, destined for the glory held in store for the sons and daughters of the Lord of the Universe.
Have a blessed and happy Thanksgiving!
Fr. John Corapi
A Prophet without Honor
TGIF Today God Is First Volume 2, by Os Hillman
11-30-2008
"Where did this man get these things? And what wisdom is this which is given to Him, that such mighty works are performed by His hands? Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house" (Mark 6.3, 4).
Have you ever noticed how difficult it can be to spiritually impact your immediate circle of relationships and family? Jesus warned us of this phenomenon. We often relate to family and friends differently because they have a history with us that no one else has. They most likely have not had the privilege to witness the spiritual transformation that you have experienced and is evidenced by others in your life.
The spiritual authority that others may recognize in you is not there with your own family and friends. "After all, you're just my sister or brother, with whom I fought, played, and lived everyday life," is what is thought. Jesus was more qualified to be a carpenter than the Son of God in his own family and community's eyes. It was too difficult to change old perceptions of someone they knew so well. So too, is it for your family members.
The sad result of this mindset is that we often do not experience the same fruit of ministry in our family's lives that we do outside this circle. It is an unfortunate truth. "Jesus still healed a few sick people," meaning there is still a remnant of faith that can receive from you and I. Ultimately, God determines the fruit of our lives. Do not allow spiritual pride to prevent you from freely giving to your family and friends when they do not receive you in the way you think they should. You don't know which "few" God will choose to touch through your life.
Many did not receive Jesus. Therefore, many will not receive you. Nevertheless, allow God to touch the few in your circle He chooses to touch through you.
Jim C.
Some insightful thoughts & postings! I especially liked the wisdom of Fr. John Corapi.(He didn't even mention anything about Mary-Blessed Mother, Queen of Heaven, Co-redemptrix.(Praise the Lord! Halleluiah!)
The tie in with" occultation" on the Dec 1st "signs in the heavens"
is certainly something to watch for.
Jim C,
This is just an observation of what is being said @ the Catholic Forum.(I agree w/you on the Woman Priest issues BTW)
The rebuttle from Catholics seems to be primarily "What the Church thinks, What the Church says, What the Church..fill in the blank.."
How about what the Word of God, God, or the Bible says?
I am in agreement with what my Pastor & general group of Christians say/believe or I wouldn't be there but when it all boils down to it-I could care less what my(the)Church says.
Are we worshipping & following the "Church" or God?
This is very similar to being a JW and being concerned what the "Society" (They don't call it church) says. The elders of the "Society" are supposedly
"annointed" by God and won't
stear you wrong. Therefore the emphasis is placed on the "Church" and not on the "Word".
Don't just brush this off as a JW or Mormon issue. The looking to the "Church" in Catholics is a true parallel. And-many Protestant denominations have a similar mindset as well.
I'll keep reading on but I'm waiting to hear the position defended Biblically.
Did you see what is going on in Thailand? I'm sure thankful I'm not stranded there! Explosions wound 51 at Thailand protests Wider confrontations feared in standoff that has crippled economy
Good God's Morning everyone; Sleep well Mac and Mr. Hyde.
JIM C. posed the question you asked for JIm and he replied: much of the water filtration systems still use the same method of water filtration today as you described. The process has proven to be very reliable and cost effective in the long run. The frequency of cleaning the sand or replacement depends on what is in the water. Replacing the sand is not really what they normally do. The general procedure is to reverse the flow of the water back up through the sand layers and flushing it out. This is just a general description and not a technical one. But sand is still the best filtering process. Hope that helps.
I started reading the comments from the bottom and it hasn't taken long to realize it isn't going to be possible today.
Oh, JIM C. The other question you asked is about the horses not wanting to go back to the barn. After the quake not even the chickens will go there. They raise horses for quarter horse shows and rodeo events and the barn is state of the art with a lot of fancy Horsey features. They are boarding the horse at a close by ranch.
Their cave is capute and this part of the country is known for its' late tornadoes.
Now to return to the spot where I left and read the rest of the comments. I went to bed early last night and I am dragging (not dragon either) this morning. Too much sleep will ruin anyone.
Love you all,
Grany
Lisa, Shalom! Yes, I agree that the rebuttals on the Catholic Answers Forum seems to be geared towards accepting and depending on what the Magisterium (the deacons, priests, and bishops) have taught. The teachings of the Magisterium are not simply the teachings of one man preaching in a single church, but the summation and distillation of what hundreds of thousands of men (with the able guidance of more than a few women) have taught for two millenia. This distillation process has not been short or easy. We believe that these teachings come from the guidance of the Holy Spirit by the fact that the teachings of the Magisterium can be traced back in a logical progression to the teachings of the Apostles and Holy Scripture, so by its nature it has authority.
Having said that, here are some links to articles that explain the reasons why women can't be priests. These articles link to more articles, so be prepared for some reading:
Why doesn't the Church accept women as priests?
Why can't women be priests?
I'm afraid to try to summarize the positions, because it's a result of several and many scriptural positions. That's why I'm pointing you at these different articles online, because they all have different viewpoints and scriptural interpretations that point to one result: women cannot be priests. One example of this is in this essay, which brings up different points such as the fact that Jesus didn't ordain any women, only men; or the fact that while women were allowed to pray and prophecy in church (1 Cor. 11:1–16), but they were not to assume the function of teaching in the Christian assembly (1Cor. 14:34–38; 1 Tim. 2:1–14).
(I will admit: my favorite article of the bunch is this one, titled The Authority of Women. The author makes sevral excellent points, such as the idea that priestly authority is the ONLY authority comes from a pagan Greek philosophy that was rejected by the early Church fathers. Her explanation of the Pauline letters on the submission of wives to husbands was breathtaking. Yes, wives were to be submissive to their husbands. That's the way the culture worked. What is breathtaking is her point about the next line in the passage --
Husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. Observe that no one ever hates his own flesh; no, he nourishes it and takes care of it as Christ cares for the Church — for we are members of His body. `For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and cling to his wife, and the two shall be made into one.' This is a great foreshadowing; I mean that it refers to Christ and the Church
-- is so totally opposite what the culture of the time taught. In effect, Paul is saying that husbands also need to be submissive to their wives. As the body is submissive to the head, so must the head be submissive to the body.)
Enjoy your reading!
<><
The media is still tip-toeing around the fact that this is Islamist terrorism:
Hindus, Jews, and Jihad Terror in Mumbai
Wow. 7 hours after my post and no one has said anything. Either everyone is busy reading, or I've freaked everyone out and they're waiting for someone else to say something first.
<><
Mr Carroll, have you been "freaking" people out again? Or perhaps it was that rascal, mac!
Jim C.
I thought I was the one who freaked everyone out- Sorry, you can't have my spot.
Look under the blog title of :
The Eschatology Equation for theWe will Survive Video It was pretty good-liked the beat!
Maybe it was my posts that freaked everyone out! :)
On another note:
Police: Pakistan Group Behind Mumbai Siege
In fact, Scott, please accept our condolences for your grandmother's passing. I neglected to mention that in my earler comment.
Mac and Alesia.
Vatican Thanks Muslims For Returning God to Europe
Thanks Mac and Alesia.
Scott
Jib,
Remember your sleep paralysis? I was reading a thread on Rapture Ready and thought of it. I also had that happen to me once. I was spending the night at my sister's house as a child where I felt my soul was being pulled out of me until I cried out for Jesus.
(She dabbled in "occult" games when she had her friends come over for parties. I was not crazy about it but being 3yrs younger I always got the brunt of things.)
Rapture Ready Thread
Dec. 1….(Israel Today) When US President George W. Bush met with visiting Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert last week he urged Olmert to reconsider his ill-conceived rush to surrender the Golan Heights to Syria. That according to diplomatic sources briefed on the White House meeting between the two outgoing leaders. The sources told Ha'aretz that Bush pointedly asked Olmert, "Why do you want to give Syrian President Bashar Assad the Golan for nothing?" Olmert reportedly responded that the surrender of the Golan would "not be for nothing. It's an exchange for a change in the region's strategic alignment." Bush then suggested that Olmert was foolish for taking Assad at his word, to which the Israeli leader had no reply. Israeli commentators believe Olmert is eager to score a major diplomatic victory before leaving office in February, and sees a hasty peace deal with Syria as the most viable option.
Lisa, Shalom! RE: that article, Vatican Thanks Muslims For Returning God to Europe, what can I say? Strange but true. When the Church tried to remind Europe of its Christian roots and tried to get people interested in G_D again, she was either ignored by the intelligentsia or mocked by the leftists. Now that the Muslims are on the scene, people have to deside which side of the fence they're going to stand on...
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Jim C.
I wonder if the Muslims are really inspiring the backslid Christians/Non-believers to return to YHWH?
The libs in Europe have allowed the Muslims to change their
culture in the name of Political Correctness & Religious tolerance.
So now what? Are the Europeans really returning to Christ? Or just as apathetic as usual?
Their Cathedrals continue to turn into mosques so what does that say?
I just hope the Vatican is not alluding to Allah being the same god as YHWH. (That is how some Christians are interpreting it because the article does not go into further explaination.)
I really liked this message...
Awaiting our day
"The story is told of an old missionary couple returning to the States after many years of thankless service in Africa. They happened to be on the same ship to New York as President Theodore Roosevelt, who was returning from a big game hunt in Africa. As the ship pulled past the Statue of Liberty and into the dock, huge crowds were gathered to welcome him home. The press was out in full force, and thousands of people had come to get a glimpse of the president.
In the middle of the chaos, the aged missionary couple fought their way through the crowds with their large suitcases in tow. Silently they hailed a cab and made their way to a cheap hotel. The missionary sat on the bed and said to his wife, "It just doesn't seem right. We gave our lives to Christ to win souls for the Kingdom in Africa, and when we arrive home there is no one here to meet us. The president shoots a few animals and receives a royal welcome."
His wife sat beside him on the bed and said softly, "That's because we're not home yet, dear."
It may seem at times as if our work for Christ is going unnoticed. Faith doesn't bring a lot of praise on this earth. But that's only because our trip is not yet over.
Our day will come, you can be sure. And when it does, the ceremony will last for an eternity.
Alesia that is a great post and a very important final word. We haven't arrived yet but when we do, it will so glorious that we will wonder why we worried so.
This DEBKAfile says it is getting dicey in the ME and we are posting a warning to all concerned. I wonder what the responses will be like when the future King of the World takes over?
Grany
Donna
I think the others did a reasonable job with the aforementioned article and I would agree-sounds like someone trying to justify his vote in his own mind. I'm not saying people should have voted for McCain but for those who claim Christ to vote for someone who has only been able to take definitive stands on abortion and gay rights/marriage just boggles my mind.
as to God being more concerned or ven as concerned about other things such as global famine, global AIDS and global warming, racism somehow I doubt that very highly.
Abortion is a violation of the 10 commandments so since none of the other things he list violate the 10commandments I'm going to guess they might not carry the same weight. Child sacrifice was noted to be an abomination to God and per the notes in my archeology Bible the reason children were sacrificed in pagan religions is that there was no greater honor one could give his god than to sacrifice that which is important. If we really think about it, abortion is a form of child scarifice with our own desires, ambitions and lives the "god" to which the children are sacrificed to and for.
His reasons for gay marriage don't really stand up under scrutiny either although it technically doesn't go back to the 10 commandments. Marriage has always been God's imagery for relating to His people on a corperate level both with Israel and with the church-Bride and Bridegroom. We were created with complimentary anatomy. there was a really good quote by Plato in the "ancient voices" note on this exact subject in the same Bible. not at home though.
his view point is neither scriptural nor valid. he might be one of those "red letter" Christians since I seem to recall him mentioning something about red letters.
btw-one of the docs I work with just came in. definitely not a Christian in so far as I know. his comment on BHO-"he's an evil man". so it's not just folks of faith have have issues with BHO's stances
yup he's a red letter Christian
Red Letter site
some of the words from the guys letter come directly from this site. They seem to think that the only words that matter are the "red letter words" in the NT. In fact, I think I read at one time that some, not all, of the red letter group believes that the only words in the Bible which are inspired from God are the red letter words. I would note however that the whole red letter thing is a fairly recent addition to published Bibles
JIB I agree with your conclusions and might I also add, the same sort of Religious Pomp was existence right along side of Jesus and his disciples. There is a vast difference between Believers and Religion. As there is also a difference in wheat and tares; goats and sheep; sweet water and salt water. I know you get my drift.
I have a big basket full of emails this morning and most of it is from Israel. I am going to post the link to Stan Goodenough's web site and hope you will all read it and then begin to really open your heart and eyes to pray.
STAN GOODENOUGH
Obama has new facial tic due to stress
this is sad on a plethora of levels
1-it is sad that he is physcially afflicted with anything and we should pray for this because most likely it is due to stress
2-it is also sad because the man isn't even President and is only setting up his future cabinet etc. The current stress he has is NOTHING to the stress he will have when he is actually POTUS. so if he can't handle this stress-what's going to happen when he really gets hit with a stressful situation and actually has to make an actual important decision. why does he think all these guys go into the Presidency as young men and come out looking like they've been drug through the wringer?
btw Donna
I don't hate Obama. Being critical of someone's stances and thinking someone is not fit for the job they will be undertaking doesn't mean you hate that person. It just means you don't like what they stand for and you don't think they're the right person for the job-nothing more or less. To accuse us of hating Obama because we think he currently stands on the side of what is evil in God's sight is just plain wrong. It does distress me to see a sister in Christ obviously buy into the lies of the left that if we disagree with Obama or others of his ilk we are hatemongers.
Jib,
I didn't see anything in the interview that noticable. It looked liked he blinked w/both eyes quite a bit.
The office of President does put on the age years-doesn't it? After two terms they all like they are 10-20 years older than they are.
Who are these lunies threatening Obama's life? KKK, White Natzi types or what?
not sure but likely all the loonies you mentioned have made threats.
I read the whole thread or much of it from Rapture Ready-interesting to note that many have dabbled in New Age and the occult. I haven't dabbled in such things other than I had a friend who insisted on reading tarot cards for me. I don't even remember what the cards said other than I discounted what they said and told the person I didn't believe in such things. and who hasn't read their horoscope in the newspaper (many of them hilarously funny and didn't have the remotest chance of being true), cracked open a fortune cookie and played with a magic 8 ball. Never a scary movie watcher but did read Dean Koontz for awhile, had to quit started freaking me out, but as far as astral projection etc never have dabbled in that.
I have never sought lucid dreaming it just always has been.
I couldn't link to this one from Stan Goodenough, it came as a personal email to me. Don't you find it odd that the news media isn't paying much attention to this EU attitude? Read on!
"Exposed: Europe's 2009 plan for Israel
Updated 12-01-08 8:30 AM CST
The European Union, which has been trying for decades to shoulder its way into playing a more important role in the global effort to establish a new Muslim Arab state on historically Jewish lands, is reportedly poised to unveil its latest plan for achieving this unprecedented act of state land theft.
Drafted by the French foreign ministry and entitled "The EU Action Strategy for Peace in the Middle East: The Way Forward," the scheme on the agenda for discussion when the EU's foreign ministers meet in the second week of December.
A copy of was leaked to the leftist Israeli daily, Ha'aretz, which published details from it at the top of its English-language website Sunday morning.
Because of Ha'aretz's constant effort to undermine Israel's security by promoting every new "peace plan" to emerge, it is probable someone in the EU arranged to float the document and gauge Israel's reaction before Europe's foreign ministers convene to discuss it.
The union is thought to have timed the document's release in order to have it in play before Barack Hussein Obama ascends to the presidency of the United States on January 20.
Describing it as "the EU's plans for advancing an Israeli-Palestinian deal in 2009," Ha'aretz said initial reaction among Israel' officials has been one of "alarm."
"Inter alia, it calls for increased pressure on Israel to reopen Palestinian institutions in Jerusalem, including Orient House, which formerly served as the Palestinian Authority's headquarters in the city," the paper said, and which gave the Arabs a strategic foot in what Israel calls its "eternal and undivided capital."
A central demand of the Arab world is that the central and most important parts of Jerusalem - with the Temple Mount, Israel's holiest site, at the top of the list - be included in a Palestinian state.
States the EU plan: "A key part of building the Palestinian state involves resolving the status of Jerusalem, as the future capital of two states. [Therefore] the EU will work actively towards the re-opening of the Palestinian institutions, including the Orient House."
BTW DONNA
Hating isn't one of the things I waste my time on either. I just don't think Obama's whole agenda is worth destroying this nation over. He could be purple with lime green stripes and it wouldn't bother me one bit. In fact, if you knew anything at all about me you would see how far off base your expert analyst was. Race, that is what you do when you compete. Ethnic that is the fibre of one's being, and religion, oh now, that is the button to push.
Here we are as a nation, fighting against terrorist who consequently belong to the Muslim world and we vote for a man who claims to be a Believer in Christ, "been praising Jesus for 20 years" so he said, and yet he stands for and defends ungodly ideals and practices. Well, to put it bluntly, the question is "Did we put a deceiver in the Highest Office in the USA, and possibly into the world?"
So hate isn't the word for what I am experiencing right now. It is total disgust for people calling themselves Christians taking such liberal pathways and totally ignoring what the Holy Spirit has been saying all along this past year. Worshiping Political Party membership more than what is right and what is wrong. How do you explain that?
You do realize that Israel was sent into captivity for rebellion against God's Laws and also, for the sacrificing of their children in the Valley of Hinnon? Yes, those wonderful Israeli people who said they worshiped God in the Temple, gave lip service to the Law and yet, they killed their children on the Altars of Baal in that valley that is now known as the Kidron Valley that divides Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives. The Valley that runs beside the Eastern Gate, that the Muslims tried to block up so Christ could not come back through it when He comes as the Warrior King to destroy evil's power. Yes, it is in the Bible but you have to look for it on your own. You see, I don't think there is a serious desire to know God's word and heed it on the part of most Americans. So, they like to put a tag on anyone who does. I will answer to God if I don't keep his word, the same as everyone else who claims a relationship with the Son of God.
I intend to defend and keep the victories that Christ won for all of us and if that requires confrontation, so be it.
Grany
good news-
the tests I had done to figure out why the nerves in my legs and feet don't work are negative which means I don't have antibodies to the nerves or some weird occult cancer. the bad news is we still don't know why I have the problem.
it doesn't bother me that much and most of the time I'm not aware of the problem and it also now appears it's not inherited so lots of questiosn but not so many answers. not sure that I will persue it any further but haven't decided. at this point I'd have to go to Barrows or Mayo. not sure I'm that interested in knowing since I'm already getting what treatment is available for the symptoms. I suppose whatever it is could theoretically get worse but for what the neurlogist currently thinks is wrong it doesn or does very slowly
Afternoon, y'all -
I will try to make this as short and painless for you as possible. If I offend anyone, I apologize in advance, but I thought this might be the best place to vent.
I have really been struggling lately and have just about come to the end of the emotional rope. I have spoken to Pastors, psychologists, MD’s and priests. I have prayed and prayed without an answer of any kind. I have long struggled with depression and subsequently, anger. While I can mostly shake the depression, the anger is constant and is easily set off. I am never violent but frequently and easily angry. I know this affects those around me negatively. I know it affects other aspects of my life negatively. I have sought help to overcome this destructive anger, but I am just done. How or why should I pray to a God that ignores me and leaves me to my own devices no matter how much I plead in prayer? How can I love a God that will not help me when it affects not only me but also my family? It would be better to be an atheist and be ignorant of God than to know He is there and realize that he doesn’t care at all. I would rather be ignorant than abandoned. I have pursued God but he stays away from me. WHY? If I could figure a way out of this that wouldn’t hurt my family I would….unfortunately there is none other than just learning to live with it. Ok, I have said enough. Sorry. I just needed to say it.
Feel free to delete if need be, Hyde.
Boro_Eagle,
I know it took a lot to post your hearts cry but I am so glad you did. You see, there is Godly power in a group of Believers. No matter how weak and out of sync we all get sometimes, we need each other, even when we get into disagreements. I am adding my prayers to yours and knowing that God hears our cries just as he has heard all of the cries utter in the past.
I know all of the others here will be joining in those prayers and also, the many who come here to read and never post, will be joining also.
Keep expecting Scott because He is the Lord who delivers us all.
Love and blessings,
Grany
Boro Eagle,
Have you ever felt God's presence or have you seen him working in your life?
Are you in touch with Him on a daily basis? Is there an ongoing relationship but you feel unheard in your prayers to assist you with
"anger?"
Or is it more than just the anger part. Do you feel He is not there now or has never been there?
You mention pursuing but finding no answer.
What type of answer are you looking for? Do you want Him to switch off the "trigger" which gets you riled up too quickly?
(My husband is quick tempered so I know what you’re saying.)
We all have different "strongholds"
and anger is a tough one. Finding out how to spiritually remain "In Christ" would tamper down that emotion.
As you probably already know anger releases adrenalin which gives you a physical reaction. The brain connections eventually form a "super highway" so you end up from one state to another w/o any checks & balances. Therefore it takes milliseconds to go from irritation to anger.
It seems my husband used this "reaction" in his work and was actually not bothered by it his entire life. He doesn’t feel "himself" if he's not all keyed up. (people who know him & his baloney see his big heart but to others he works with he can scare the you know what out of them.)
Of course it bothers me & eventually as he's gotten older this behavior has given him health problems. He's got a slew of them now from not handling stress well.
The health issues have calmed him down quite a bit-but that's not a great way to go. (BTW-he's a baby Christian and not mature in faith)
So, please don't throw in the towel. There is obviously more to this than meets the eye & I'm confident you will have 100% of our ernest prayers on your behalf.
You are precious in the eyes of YHWH & loved more than humans are even capable of.
There is no telling what experience,scripture, and edification the Christians here will have to help you figure out what's going on.
Thank you for confiding in us and sharing your struggles! That in it's self says alot.
Lisa
Boro Eagle,
I don't know if these verses will help or not......maybe it just makes it all more confusing. I know that there are patterns and sins that I repeat over and over in my life and I just can't seem to shake them. It seems that the "World's Best Christian" Paul also struggled with sin.
I don't know, of course, if it applies in your life, but I know that I sometimes tend to hold on to my sin.....kind of like a perverse warm blanket. It's comfortable to my fleshly nature. I tend to have anger issues from time to time as well. Things tend to flare up when I'm not walking totally in the path that I should be. That's just me, I don't know what your situation is.
I'm not sure if any of that would help you or not.
Romans 7
15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Fun news update on the crescent moon @ stars tonight-Prophecy in the News
Dear Boro Eagle, know this:
We will not let you go.
I don't know where your anger comes from (mine came from childhood abuse) or what you do with it (I repressed it which led to depression) but God is with you, even if you don't sense it. The image of Jacob wrestling with the Lord comes to my mind. Gen 32:26 "I will not let you go until you bless me".
I am fasting and praying for you.
Boro Eagle,
Thank you for stepping out like that and sharing your struggles, and pain. I've got to say first that I just feel so unqualified to help in any way but I know that I must reach out and share anyway. My feelings are quite deceitful at times. I am praying that our words here will bring comfort and help to you.
As I read your words I was reminded of several people. David, for one. As I read through the Psalms his feelings seem to go back and forth from utter joy to utter despair. Of course, he did have reasons for this but I think that he was a very "feeling" person and I think that many times he felt God had left him or was ignoring him. I take much comfort in his writings.
Also, Paul, when he wrote about the "thorn in his flesh" and the Lord answered "my grace is sufficient for you for my power works best in weakness" 2Corinthians 12 To that Paul answered that he could then be glad to boast about his weakness, so that the power of Christ could work through him.
And another person this reminds me of is a dear relative of mine who loves the Lord with everything he has. He has spoken quite frequently and to many people about the fact that he does not "feel" the Lord, he actually feels quite depressed most of the time. He never seems to hear from the Lord nor sense Him. This affects his family very much too for there are times when he is distant, sullen, angry, annoyed, ect anf he just can't shake it. But, he loves the Lord. And I believe that the Lord uses that great weakness to bring glory to Himself, for i have seen it myself.
This is the last part of my rant. The verse comes to mins also..Though He slay me, yet I will praise Him...I can't find it right now but i think it may have been Job.
I am praying for you. That can be a glib answer from some people but I believe the people here at this site really mean that they are really praying for you when they say!
Love in Christ,
Diana
Scott,
I just sent you email, to your gmail account.
I had your address on file from when you sent me email when Joel's went down.
(Hopefully, you still have the same address)
Boro Eagle,
Faith doesn't come from praying.
Are you ready to become bold with the devil? When Jesus was confronted with the enemy, in the wilderness, He defeated him (satan) by speaking forth the Word of God. Keep confessing the Word, and come against the devil in the mighty name of Jesus Christ.
Ask the Holy Spirit to have you put together some Scriptures, like;
"I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me," etc. The authority comes from using the name of Jesus. satan sees Jesus, when you come againt him in the name of Jesus!
Picture a traffic cop, directing traffic. It isn't because he's (or she's) that "powerful," to hold back the traffic. It's because of the authority that's been given to them. The same goes for every believer, using the name of Jesus.
Also, if that traffic cop (you!) doesn't get out there, and use their authority? Guess what? The job doesn't get done. Also don't go by "feelings." A person may say, I just don't "feel" like I can do this today. Maybe the Mayor should go out and direct traffic today? Well, using that illustration, of delegated authority, if the person (traffic Police) won't go out there? They're not doing their job.
Fasting and prayer are excellent. But then again? Jesus told us to go, and work the works of Jesus.
Believe me it has nothing to do with God not loving you :) God doesn't just love us, He IS love.
And in His great love He has given provision for the body of Christ to go lay hands on the sick, cast out devils, etc. It's the enemy coming against you. Cast him out of your life, along with prayer, fasting, etc.
Remember the underlying subject is you. (all of us!) Jesus paid the price for our salvation, and He left His authority in the hands of the Church. (us)
I would also recommend reading a few books on Faith, by Kenneth E. Hagin. Because my comments are all from him, and his wonderful teaching on Faith. This teaching has (literally) saved my life.
God bless you, and keep you. And may God's peace be yours, as well.
Your sister in Christ,
Love,
Marge
Come against depression, in the name of Jesus, and cast it out of your life.
Diana, I was thinking of that verse from Job, too, and the second half is also apropo.
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face.
Scott
I have ranted against God, shook my fist in his face, been depressed, tried to do it my way, felt like my prayers were falling on deaf ears-the tunnel has been so deep and dark that never mind seeing the light at the end of the tunnel there were times I would have settled for seeing the walls of the tunnel and the sound in the tunnel was an echo. not once but at least a couple of times.
the first time was a complete disaster and I was devestated by my own sin emotionally and blamed God that I had sinned. if He had done what I wanted I wouldn't have had to take matters into my own hands. prior to me taking control and making a complete mess of things I would stand in the middle of my room and yell at God-anything to get His attention. that continued for a few years. decided that wasn't working because I was continually miserable and worse off than before and repented-called it what it was. it eventually worked out but from the first time I started praying about it to when I finally gave up and left it in God's hands with roughly 4 or so years of significant rebellion included I think my prayers went unanswered, or so I thought, for years and years. God had answered it was just that the answer was -not yet I just didn't hear or like the asnwer-the silence was deafening as far as I was concerned. I also teetered for a time when my rebellion started on the brink of full blown anorexia.
the second time I was not as angry but did get frustrated. I knew what God wanted, was doing what I needed to do and yet the problem wasn't solving itself at all. this was the time of the marked depression and the tunnel-a very low point. I clung to the verse in Jeremiah that says that God has plans for a hope and a future for me. it very literally kept me going.
one would hope that your docs have been thorough in their help of you-it's not really my field so I can't comment much.
I will be praying for you.
God is hearing your prayers. Satan is filling your mind and emotions with lies to blind you to the truth. As with Anne I don't begin to know what started your time of troubles and you might not even know yourself. Keep praying, cling to God and don't let Satan fill your mind with lies. Rebuke Him, annoint your house with oil and each room in it-pray for clarity of thought to determine what the underlying cause is.
don't give up on medicine either-the causes for things like this can be complicated and difficult to track down. i have no idea what kind of docs you've seen but there is a difference between psychologists and psychiatrists. try another doctor until you find one that can figure out what your medical issues are. My brother was problems with intractable depression and anger-he was found to have sleep apnea and attention deficit disorder along with his depression. Another friend was found to be bipolar although he's never had a manic episode in his life and additionally found to be diabetic. Medication for both has improved his life greatly although he still has some issues with lack of sleep and increased stress. Both my brother and our friend had to try more than one doctor to get the answers and both took time.
as odd as it sounds-go volunteer somewhere even if you don't feel like it. drive the elderly from your church to doctor's visits, volunteer in the hospital. do something that distracts your focus from yourself and your problems and do it faithfully and frequently regardless how you feel.
Scott
don't give up on God and don't give up on yourself either
Hey Boro_Eagle,
I, too, echo our other friends here, my brother. One of the REALLY amazing things about the Body of Christ, us believers, is the link we share though the Holy Spirit. It's not just a blog to me and I'll bet many of us feel the same. I can tell you that any one of the regulars here I'd invite into my home, to eat at my table and could fellowship with, even though we've never physically met. Our Lord has given us the ability to recognize His stamp on those we come in contact with.... and that stamp is His love. I'd bet we have many, many people on here who have been through something chose to what you are going through, if not the same thing. Others have already given you prayer support (massively powerful!) and the Word as a comfort.
Don't give up on the One who bought you with His blood. Remember every battle we've fought He fought too, He knows where you're at.
BTW, I noticed you don't have an email listed on your profile.
In His Grip,
Scott
Hey Scott(boro eagle)...how wonderful to see your name!
Yes, Scott R is right. We all go these things.
Others have left some wonderful Bible quotes and stories that help to encourage us during these times.
I know you won't give up on Him, and I know He won't give up on you.
We have to persevere. We have to run the race to the end.
I KNOW you can do it and I know you WILL do it...through Him; Through Him is the ONLY way.
"Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, and do not rely on your own insight.
In all of your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths." Proverbs 3:5&6
It is thru our weaknesses that He strengthens us.
I want to add to Dave's earlier quote of Pauls from the Book of Romans:
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."
He will conquer these things~
We love you and we all will be praying for you.
Scott R and Jenny,
Please accept our condolences on the passing of your grandmother.
She sounds like a great lady and I can't wait to meet her someday.
Soon, hopefully!
Thanks Grany and Jib and others for being so concerned for me!
Don't worry though!
My faith lies in the "political party" from above! His party!
That is where my faith lies...in Him! Not in man and man's ways!
For He is the Way and the Truth and the Life! Amen!
<><
Also, please be careful about putting words in people's (mine, for example!) mouths and attributing thoughts to them that are not so!
'Come to Me ALL who are weary and heavy laden and you shall find rest for your souls. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meak and humble in Spirit, and you shall find rest for your souls."
Jesus
jib and grany thank you for the info on the stories about the Valley of Hinnon, Kidron Valley and the connection to the Eastern Gate.
It all sounds really interesting and I know nothing about it.
I will check it out. Thanks.
Sorry for all the posts!
Boro_Eagle, I've sent you an e-mail. Hang in there. We'll keep you in our prayers.
Scott,
the thing that always amazes me is that there is nothing that I can go through that hasn't happened to Christ. probably comes under the trite but true category but seriously Scripture tells us that there is nothing that overtakes us that Christ hasn't experienced. Scripture tells us that he knows our infirmities and our weaknesses.
God does love you even though right now it just doesn't seem that way-He sent his son to die for your sins and my sins which is the ultimate expression of love.
my mom complained to our pastor when I was growing up that she was praying for patience and the Lord kept sending her difficult things which was taxing her patience. he reminded her that patience comes via testing and trials of our faith. he asked her how she was supposed to know she had more patience if she wasn't put into situations to test the limits of her faith and therefore build her patience. not sure if that helps but something to think about
Shalom, all. There was a posting earlier about "the American Jesus." I can't find that posting, and in any case, I would like the original source so I can reference it, or at least attribute it. Thanks!
<><
Jim C. Is this the one?
Surprised by Jesus
by David Servant
An astounding fact: Although the scribes and Pharisees rigorously studied God's revelation of Himself in the Old Testament, when God appeared in human flesh and simply acted like Himself, they didn't recognize Him. In fact, they hated Him. Think of that for a moment! Here were men who could quote large portions of the Old Testament, who considered themselves extremely devoted to God, who were Israel's spiritual leaders, and who were anticipating a Messiah, but when God appeared on the earth, they wanted to kill Him. They were surprised by Jesus, to say the least.
Why were they so surprised? Simply put, He didn't act and talk like they thought God should. More specifically, He didn't keep their man-made traditions. What makes their surprise even more tragic is that Jesus didn't come to earth disguised or impersonating someone else. He came as Himself---as God. Jesus acted just as He had been acting for thousands of years as revealed in Scripture. When the scribes and Pharisees critically questioned Him about His words or deeds, He answered them from Scripture. He knew what He was talking about. He knew what He was doing. He played the part of God flawlessly, because He was God. Still they were utterly surprised by Him.
I suppose, however, that I shouldn't be too condemning of the scribes and Pharisees, because in times past, I've also been surprised by Jesus. There were certain stories about Him in the four Gospels in which He didn't always do or say what I thought He should. Sadly, instead of adjusting my understanding of Jesus to fit Scripture, I interpreted Scripture to fit my understanding of Jesus. In so doing, I rejected "Bible Jesus" in favor of "My Jesus." Let me give you one example.
You probably recall the story of Jesus' encounter with the Syrophoenician woman whose daughter needed deliverance. That particular story always troubled me because Jesus did not seem to act like the loving person I knew Him to be, but rather, He seemed unkind and insulting. So I concluded that He was just play-acting, pretending to be an uncaring, bigoted Pharisee---and His act was all crafted to teach His watching disciples a lesson, complete with a surprise ending that revealed His true feelings all along. My imaginative interpretation was certainly a stretch, and the text of the actual story certainly didn't support it. But I had to invent such an interpretation in order to keep believing in "My Jesus."
Since then I've come to realize that Jesus wasn't acting at all. Rather, He was playing the part of God perfectly, acting no differently than God had acted in the pages of the Old Testament. Let's consider the actual story verse by verse so I can explain:
Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” But He did not answer her a word (Matt. 15:21-23a).
First, take note that Jesus had temporarily traveled out of Israel and was in the district of Tyre and Sidon, a Gentile region. The woman who entreated Him was a descendant of the Canaanites, whom God had commanded the Israelites of Joshua's day to exterminate, and for justifiable reasons. They had a reputation for idolatry, child sacrifice, gross sexual perversion, and a hardness of heart that put them beyond redemption. With such a legacy, it is quite possible that the descendants of those who survived were not exactly paragons of virtue. Jesus' treatment of the Syrophoenician woman certainly seems to verify this. No one can debate that He intentionally ignored her as she cried out to Him---which is exactly what God generally does when unrepentant sinners, Jew or Gentile, make requests of Him.
Readers who believe in "American Jesus"---Mr. Nice Guy---may object, but they should not forget that their New Testaments declare that “the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears attend to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil" (1 Pet. 3:12). If Jesus was truly God---as He claimed---then we should expect that "His face would be against those who do evil." We should expect that "His ears would not attend to their prayers."
Proverbs 15:8-9 expresses the same idea, perhaps even more strongly:
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord, but the prayer of the upright is His delight. The Lord is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous.
Combining all that is said in those two verses, it would be safe to conclude that the prayers of unrighteous people are an abomination to God. When you think about it, it is audacious for unrepentant rebels against God to ask Him for help. We should be amazed that God has such patience with them that He doesn't immediately destroy them for their temerity. But God's mercy is astounding. Mercifully, He ignores the cries of the wicked---in hopes His silence will lead them to repentance.
There are other scriptures that confirm to us God's feelings about the prayers of unrepentant sinners. To rebellious Israel God said:
So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood (Is. 1:11).
Has God changed since the old covenant? To the church, John writes,
Whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight (1 John 3:22).
Answers to prayer, according to John, have something to do with holiness. All of this is to say that we should not be surprised that Jesus ignored the cries of those who needed to repent. And the fact that He intentionally ignored the cries of the Syrophoenician woman should certainly makes us wonder if His disregard was based, not on His uncaring, but on her unworthiness.
In any case, she apparently continued shouting at Jesus as she followed Him and His disciples, and He continued to ignore her. Jesus' disciples became annoyed with her:
And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:23b-24).
Jesus didn't rebuke His disciples for their selfish request to send her away, but neither did He grant their request---an act of mercy on her behalf. If she overheard their exchange, it may have given her some hope.
I also wonder if she heard Jesus' statement that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. It sounds like a declaration of favoritism, and it is. Like it or not, it shouldn't surprise us. It was a statement of fact. God had been showing favoritism to Israel for hundreds of years. Jesus was born in Israel. He was a Jew. He spent most of His time in Israel. That is where He was sent by His Father. It was to Israel that He initially sent His disciples (Matt. 10:5). We know, of course, that Jesus would eventually die for the sins of the whole world and ultimately in God's plan, the church would include forgiven Gentiles. But Jesus was sent, first of all, to the lost sheep of Israel. At least temporarily, Gentiles were a lesser priority.
But don't think that Jesus' statement was one of bigoted ethnic exclusivity. God-fearing Gentiles could become proselytes to Judaism (see Matt. 23:15; Acts 2:10; 6:5, 13:43, 17:4, 17). This Syrophoenician woman certainly lived in close enough proximity to practicing Jews that she likely had some knowledge of their religion, and if she had had some spiritual hunger, she could have investigated more fully. She knew enough about Judaism to call Jesus "Son of David." She could have joined herself to Israel and submitted to their God. But she hadn't.
Moreover, it was not as if Jesus never did anything for non-Jewish people during His earthly ministry. He healed a Roman centurions' servant (see Matt. 8:13). That centurion, incidentally, was God-fearing (see Luke 7:4-5). Jesus also revealed Himself to a Samaritan woman (John 4:7-26). It was obviously not His ironclad policy to ignore every Gentile! During His earthly ministry He confirmed what Peter later realized: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him" (Acts. 10:34-35).
Let's return to our story. If the Syrophoenician woman did hear Jesus' declaration that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, she would have been reminded of her spiritual state and need for repentance in three ways. First, it would remind her that she was not "of Israel," not a God-fearing Gentile or proselyte to Judaism, and that by her own choice had resisted the truth that was so available to her.
Second, note that Jesus did not say, "I was sent only to the people of the house of Israel." Rather, He said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." It goes without saying that such lost sheep were spiritually lost, and Jesus was inviting them back into the fold by calling them to repentance (see Luke 5:32). His words would have thus reminded her of the fact that, if Jews needed to repent to have a relationship with God, how much more rebel Gentiles like her! In fact in her mind, she may have heard His words something like this: "I was only sent to the lost of Israel, and not to the lost among the Gentiles, of whom this woman is a prime example!"
There is a third way, perhaps more subtle, in which Jesus' statement would have reminded the Syrophoenician of her spiritual state and need of repentance. In her mind, the people of Israel were the folks who lived a little south of her whose ancestors dispossessed and massacred her ancestors. As I've already mentioned, that was by God's decree, and for good reason. God had mercifully waited for the Canaanites to repent for hundred years (see Gen. 15:16). They became wicked beyond redemption, and Israel's conquest of Canaan was God's means of His judgment upon them. If the Syrophoenician woman knew the history, she certainly understood God's view of sin and of the need for sinners to repent. I wonder if she knew the rest of Israel's history, as they backslid and were judged by God by being dispossessed by foreign invaders? If she did, then she certainly knew that God's favor really wasn't directed solely at Israel, but at the righteous. In any case, she was determined to receive the same mercy that the Israelites were receiving, and so she came right up to Jesus. Now she was no longer shouting from a distance, but bowing at His feet:
But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs" (Matt. 15:25-26).
At this point in the story, readers start scratching their heads, theologians dust off old commentaries, and atheists mock. Jesus compared the Syrophoenician woman to a dog! This is certainly not Mr. Nice Guy American Jesus. So we've again got a problem, just like the Pharisees had when Jesus healed people on the Sabbath. God isn't fitting into the mold we've made for Him.
But we really shouldn't be so surprised. This was the same person who called some people, to their faces, serpents and vipers, and referred to others as wolves, foxes, and swine (Matt. 7:6, 12; 23:33; Luke 13:32). This was the same person who, in the Old Testament, called people cows (Amos 4:1), dogs (Is. 56:11), lusty horses (Jer. 5:8), and monsters (Ezek. 32:2) to name a few. Again, Jesus acted just like God, forthright and not always so polite. And in a nutshell, His statement once again reminded the Syrophoenician of her unworthiness to have her request granted.
Some commentators tell us that the word that Jesus used for "dog" is the Greek word for "pet dog" rather than "wild dog." Perhaps that helps soften it a little bit. But if someone called me a dog, meaning either a wild dog or a pet dog, I would be offended---unless of course it was God who said it. Then I would say to myself, "David, you are a dog in God's eyes. If you want to get your prayers answered, you had better do something to improve what He thinks of you. You probably ought to repent." Isn't that what you would think? Now consider the Syrophoenician woman's response:
She said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table" (Matt. 15:27).
She didn't object to or argue against His appraisal. She agreed with it. "You are right; I am a dog." That was a humble confession of her true moral state, at least up until that moment. But she didn't stop there. She described herself as a dog requesting crumbs from the table of her master. That was also a confession. Bowing before Jesus, admitting she was a dog, she asked her Master for crumbs. It seems to me that she was finally at the place where Jesus wanted her, which would explain why He didn't grant her request when she first asked, but why He did then. She had changed. Jesus was no longer just a miracle-working Jew. He had become her Master.
Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once (Matt. 15:28).
After first experiencing divine unresponsiveness and disapproval, she procured, by her faith, Jesus' full attention and commendation. She was no longer a dog to be ignored, but a woman of great faith whose daughter instantly received a miracle from heaven. She did just what Jesus had been hoping she would do, and what He is hoping that every sinner will do---she repented. She made Him Lord.
Coming Surprises
Let me conclude by returning to my original topic. There are many today, like the scribes and Pharisees of old, who are actually rejecting the God they claim to love. They've replaced the God who has revealed Himself in Scripture with someone else who is more to their liking. When some folks talk about "my Jesus," it's literally true. They've replaced "Bible Jesus" with their own version of Jesus---a person whom I often refer to as American Jesus. They've substituted biblical truth about Jesus with man-made ideas, which reveals that their hearts are actually far from God:
This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men" (Matt. 15:8-9).
Jesus warned that there would be many people who would make the tragic error of replacing Bible Jesus, who is holy, with American Jesus, who is not. They will one day be very surprised by the real Jesus:
Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matt. 7:22-23).
American Jesus would never say such a thing, proven by the plain fact that He doesn't say any such thing from most American pulpits. Very few preachers would dare give a sermon on Jesus' words in Matthew 7:22-23. In fact, American Jesus frequently preaches the exact opposite of what Bible Jesus preached in Matthew 7:22-23. American Jesus is more likely to tell us that anyone who says obedience to the Father is required to enter heaven is preaching a false gospel of salvation by works.
Moreover, in contrast to what we just read from the lips of Bible Jesus, American Jesus is often much more focused on prophesy, demons, and miracles than he is on holiness (as he was, for example, in Lakeland, Florida a few months ago).
American Jesus rarely if ever calls anyone to repentance, as it is unnecessary for salvation, whereas Bible Jesus called everyone to turn from their sins because doing so is a necessity for salvation.
American Jesus never gets angry because he is "love," while Bible Jesus sometimes makes a scourge of cords, and then uses it to scatter those who love money more than God, and who use God to make money (see John 2:15). Bible Jesus violently overturns their tables, spilling their profits on the ground so they cannot be recovered.
American Jesus doesn't care much about the poor. Yet Bible Jesus indicated that our sacrifices for the poor among His family will mark us for salvation or damnation in His foretelling of the judgment of the sheep and the goats (see Matt. 25:31-46). The goats will be quite surprised that it won't be American Jesus sitting on the throne of judgment. They'll be shocked, as Bible Jesus foretold, when He condemns them to hell, something American Jesus would never do to anyone who claims to be a Christian.
American Jesus is nothing like the wrathful God of the Old Testament. He wouldn't hurt a flea. He who has seen American Jesus has definitely not seen the Father. Bible Jesus, however, is one with His Father (see John 10:30). He is coming back to wage a righteous war:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war....From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty (Rev. 19:11, 15).
The truth is, those who love American Jesus hate Bible Jesus, because they are opposites of one another in so many significant ways. Their hatred for Him is proven by their utter disdain for any preacher who actually preaches about Bible Jesus. One can't help but wonder, If Jesus were to return to the earth today as He did 2,000 years ago, might He be crucified by professing Christians?
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels (Luke 9:26).
November 15, 2008 8:33 AM
Lisa, Shalom! Yes, this is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks!
<><
we should be praying for runoff elections in Georgia which I believe are today. If the Republicans DO NOT win this seat then BHO and the far left will have a liberal super majority in the Senate and anyone not supporting their legislation might as well stay home because if they have a conservative voice or a Christian voice it won't be heard. All far left legislation will pass with no discussion or argument.
I think Lisa posted and gave this as an analogy to Israel wanting a king like the others and God finally giving them what they wanted but it wasn't a good thing and this won't be either. If the Dems win this country is finished and the wheat will be separated from the chaff amongst the church. There will be laws that to keep would violate our conscience before God and we must expect to suffer for them. so must our families. just how far they will go and how fast I think remains to be seen. When those who name the name of Christ and voted for Obama for president wake up and see what their efforts have wrought and if there is a large enough out cry perhaps it will be slower than faster but it will happen.
Christ told us that since the powers that be and the world hated him so to would we be hated. To this point in time we as American Christians have had it really easy. It's easy to be a Christian in this country when it doesn't actually cost that much. Get ready to be hated for the next 4 years and perhaps beyond.
Scott
I thought of you when I read this today-it applies to me as well. I too struggle with temper at times. For the longest time I kept my faith to myself because I didn't feel God could use me because my temper can be so bad that I thought no one would ever listen to me because I wasn't perfect. It was another Chambers piece that made me see the error of that-that Satan was telling me ever so subtly that God could not sue me because I wasn't a perfect Christian. I won't say I struggle less but in some ways I do-I struggle less to be some ideal Christian and to what this devotional suggests and concentrate more on being my personal relationship with God and making that all it should be.
"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfect . . . —Philippians 3:12"
"It is a trap to presume that God wants to make us perfect specimens of what He can do— God’s purpose is to make us one with Himself. The emphasis of holiness movements tends to be that God is producing specimens of holiness to put in His museum. If you accept this concept of personal holiness, your life’s determined purpose will not be for God, but for what you call the evidence of God in your life. How can we say, "It could never be God’s will for me to be sick"? If it was God’s will to bruise His own Son ( Isaiah 53:10 ), why shouldn’t He bruise you? What shines forth and reveals God in your life is not your relative consistency to an idea of what a saint should be, but your genuine, living relationship with Jesus Christ, and your unrestrained devotion to Him whether you are well or sick.
Christian perfection is not, and never can be, human perfection. Christian perfection is the perfection of a relationship with God that shows itself to be true even amid the seemingly unimportant aspects of human life. When you obey the call of Jesus Christ, the first thing that hits you is the pointlessness of the things you have to do. The next thought that strikes you is that other people seem to be living perfectly consistent lives. Such lives may leave you with the idea that God is unnecessary— that through your own human effort and devotion you can attain God’s standard for your life. In a fallen world this can never be done. I am called to live in such a perfect relationship with God that my life produces a yearning for God in the lives of others, not admiration for myself. Thoughts about myself hinder my usefulness to God. God’s purpose is not to perfect me to make me a trophy in His showcase; He is getting me to the place where He can use me. Let Him do what He wants."
The Spurgeon quote above is quite good also.
Jib,
We do live in a fallen world.
And we all need to remember that anger is a work of the flesh. Although our spirits are reborn, our flesh remains the same. (we have a down payment on a new body/a new heaven/new earth, etc.) But for now, we need to renew our minds thru the Word of God. And with that, crucify the flesh/pick up our cross daily, too. That only comes with the help from the Holy Spirit, that lives within us, upon our receiving salvation.
Anger and fear? Lay it on the altar. (like Jib's Mother did about patience.)
I am reminded of the prayer,
"Lord, give me patience, NOW!" (smile) Remember always, that God looks upon the heart. Good news when we "step in it!" And we all do, from time to time.
That's what the letters to the Church are all about, really. It's where we should "live" in the Bible. Because it is God's instructions to (us) the Church, on how to live in a fallen world.
Just a few thoughts this morning.
Oh, how we all need each other. Jib is right.
"People Get ready."
And oh, how we all need the Holy Spirit to become active in each of our lifes, too!
Jib,
Very good thoughts on "perfection"
and "America."
Well, I'm getting ready to pack up this computer so I won't be around for awhile.
Leaving for SD tomorrow & won't have this hooked back up until prob. Sunday or so.
(I should get one of those blackberrys or a tiny computer for on the go.)
Lisa
Amen, Marge, Amen! Retirement from your gainful employment is doing wonders for you sis. Your roots are a comin through!
But that truth about anger is so very important. God didn't say we wouldn't get angry but he said not to let it dominate us. We overcome by the Word of God and Jesus won that battle for us too. I can truthfully say that the button that pushes my anger response is not near as sensitive as it was a few years ago; or for that matter, a few months ago. It is a process and now I can recognize the beginning attack and escape it. That is as long as I don't let it continue too long. Kinda like caving in to the flesh when it comes to chocolate cake. Well, really chocolate anything. Once I am on a roll, I can't seem to stop!
I want to thank everyone for your prayers regarding the death of my ex-husband. My daughter and son are still grieving and yet they know that somehow they got through a terrible ordeal with honor and grace. Your prayers made a big difference and even my daughter said she could feel the presence of God during the whole thing. Her husband put it best;
it was as though she was surrounded by a shield and it was amazing. God does do those things and I am so very grateful for your giving up prayers to Him. Thank you so very much.
Scott Robinson, I just read about your Grandmother and I want to offer you my very sincere sympathy for your loss. Her life has had an affect on you and it shows. Can you imagine what she is enjoying right now? I am keeping your family in my prayers.
Grany
Church of Sardis
Our pastor had a burden the day/night before this past Sunday service. He was in tears and didn't sleep the entire night.
I heard he really broke down the
1st service & said to the 2nd service that he had no more emotion left. Well-he ended up pretty tearful anyway.
Since the man was burdened-perhaps you would want to listen to this message.(This is really not the "norm" for him.)
Lisa
I want to start by saying that I am overwhelmed at the outpouring of help and caring from everyone here. So many of you have reached out to me and I am grateful for each and every email and post. I intend to answer each of you individually over the next day or two, but for now if you will indulge me, I will try and fill out more of what I meant in my vent.
I have long struggled with depression and have sought help over it. Through prayer, through time spent with psychologists and the like. Incidentally, someone mentioned there is a difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. I am aware of the difference and chose psychologists because I do not care for using drugs as a means of overcoming, and that I specifically sought out Christian psychologists to help. That said, I had thought that I was successful and to an extent, I was successful at beating back the depression. I see now that I merely found a reason to fight, rather than finding out why it exists in the first place. The anger still exists and in truth, I do not know why it exists. I do not now why it is there, only that it permeates my life and mind like a black hand reaching over the landscape of my psyche.
I don’t like it and don’t want it, but it is there just the same. I have hoped that God would help me overcome it. I had hoped that there would be a purpose revealed in my life that God made me for. I have tried at length to volunteer in the church and find that which He would have me do, only to be rebuffed at every turn. I no longer have the strength to get up from another rejection, rebuff and denial from God. I have exhausted all that I can do. I have searched for ways to contribute to his church. I have longed for a way to play the part He said he made for me, but my search for that has been in vain. No matter what direction I attempt to take, it is blocked and locked. I have prayed for his guidance in what he would have me do. The answer is silence. I want to be the man he says in His word that he wants me to be, but I can not get his help when I know I cannot do it alone. If He will not help me or speak to me, or reveal a direction He wants me to go, I am lost. If he will not respond to my prayers in some way, what am I to think other than that they fall on deaf ears? Am I to believe God is with me in the face of what can only seem like abandonment? I’m still wrestling with that. To be honest, I am too tired to try to wrestle much. I do not have Jacob’s stamina or resolve. God has blessed this family and I am grateful for that. I know my wife is a wonderful Christian woman and I am lucky to have her. Unfortunately, this affects her too, which is one of the big reasons I have prayed for release from it.
Anyway, I am starting to get off at a tangent, so I will stop now. Thank you again for your thoughts, prayers and encouragement.
Scott
Thanks for the comment, Scott. We'll keep holding you up in prayer.
Maranatha
At least some DO have a clue!
Devils in Mumbai
Scott
I can understand you not wanting to take drugs and wanting to heal via councilling and prayer. may take for what it's worth is that God also gave us the intelligence to figure out ways to help ourselves.
it always amazes me that folks want to dependon miracles alone for their health and yet if they were drowining in a flood they wouldn't hesitate to grab hold of the life ring tossed their way. I see no difference.
no one is saying that you would have to take the drugs for ever and you aren't a failure as a Christian if you choose to seek such help. you might want to reconsider the no drug route. just a suggestion
Scott,
in one of my posts I had mentioned a relative of mine that is dealing with many of the same issues. He has a blog and has written about these things, you might have to dig around on the site till you find the right ones. He is on the radio and tons of people have found him real, truthful and sincere. His address is www.branthansen.typepad.com
I think he did finally end up starting on an antidepressent but there was much debate over it on his radio show. I hope you might find some writings that you can connect with.
Still holding you up in prayer to our Father.
In Christs Love,
Diana
I have been away from the computer and just came back. Found this article on Bible Prophecy Today and thought you all might like to read it too.
SMART ID COMES TO ISRAEL
Now I will go catch up with you wonderful people.
Grany
Lisa
safe trip. if you go i 10 to 1 8 you'll be in my neck of the woods along the way.
Scott
belated condolences on the death of your grandmother
Scott,
I wrote you at your blog about my friend who counsels those who battle with depression. The Lord has gifted her with tremendous wisdom. She would love to help you. Again, please feel free to email me and I will give you what she passed on to me. I think it will greatly encourage you.
Continuing in prayer for you,
Kathy
(Just click on Overcomer and from there you will see my email contact.)
Jib- I know what you are saying. I agree the difference is slight if at all. I just don't care for drugs. That being said, in my desperation, I have pursued that route and it did not work as I had hoped it would.
Kathy - thank you for your suggestion.
Thanks again to everyone hear for your hearts and ears.
Wilma,
Do you know who the author is of the Prophecy Today Blog?
Thanks for any info you can give.
A Child of the King
Scott, I also am praying for you.
I went thru 10 years of anger at God because all of my friends died, and my best friend was violently taken away from this nasty world at the age of 15. I did not get to go to heaven with him, and that wasn't fair. I did not see why he was so lucky and I was the one who was punished. It did take me all of those years to understand where this anger of mine came from. By the end of this time, I was on the very edge of burn-out, and did not have the physical stamina to control any of my emotions.
For me, the most spiritual thing that I could do was sleep. Sometimes sleep does not come tho because we are too tired to slow down and rest.
More importantly, Psalm 23 says "tho I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death". Perhaps it is thru one of these valleys that you are so desperately trying to avoid going thru. When I let go of my anger, I thot that I would be completely undone, and not be able to finish my semester in Seminary. I greatly feared what was behind that wall,and in the process I messed up the ministry of a number of other people. When I did let go with the help of a friend, It was not dreadful, but new. It felt like I was floating above this very deep and big well, expecting to fall, but it didn't happen. I did discover that I was basing all (and I mean all) of my relationships on the probability that I would lose them and be alone again. I had to learn how to relate to all others in the new way, and it took me years. These observations were not clear to me as I came to that point, but have only been made clear as I have looked back at the path God took me. It is definitely not a path that I would have chosen for myself, but God has changed some of the coal into diamonds, and some of the coal is still in the press of his love.
We of course can not provide the answer for you, and forgive us for so many suggestions. perhaps one of our testimonies will give you the courage to let go of your struggle and find rest in God. We will uphold you these days. Thank you for sharing.
one final suggestion might be to make "Thou art with me" as your plea, your prayer, your cry, and sometimes your declaration until it becomes your reality.
my personal bottom rests in "Jesus is enough". When the world is totally against me, and I am all alone, "Jesus is enough"
Amen
LWayne
Boro Eagle,
You have certainly been on my heart and in my prayers! My heart aches for you brother!
Do you feel that God condemns you and does not love you because of this anger problem? If so, that is just not true. If that were true, we would all be condemned.
I have a particular sin in my life that I have struggled with for many years now and I experience the same doubts...however...I know that God loves me and that Jesus paid the price for my sin. I know that in my head, and the Word of God agrees. I know that I will have victory and it will be a very distant thing.
I do understand where you are coming from though. I tell my friend all of the time, that I will be glad when I am standing in heaven with the Lord, so I do not worry anymore if He loves me and accepts me. I will know. We see in a glass dimly, but then we will know with clarity.
I never considered myself an angry person, very passive as a matter of fact. Then I went through the most horrid depression of my life about 15 years ago. I was seething angry at the drop of a hat, all of the time.
I kept trying to solve the anger and really made some progress. I was finally diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. God has now healed so many things that ravaged my mind from my childhood. I was in counseling for 2 years. No meds.
The counselor told me at one point that the anger was really a symptom of the depression and I could really see it.
I did finally start some anti-depressants. It took some time and several med changes before there was any difference. My family noticed first. That was such a relief. The burden of my anger was lifted from them to a degree. Then I noticed that things did not ignite me like they used to.
Finally, I gradually quit taking them and the viscious cycle of anger has not returned. My whole body and mind was entrenched in this and I needed help to get started.
I look back on the years, with and without the anti-depressants and KNOW that my Jesus has healed me. He has even reconciled some those very painful relationships.
I still do deal with depression on occasion, but it is usually short-lived and a reaction to circumstances. I am sooooo learning to take them to the Lord and to not carry them anymore.
I pray for such complete healing for you Scott. You might not think He is hearing you and speaking to you, but He is.
Lord bless you for your candor. We all care about you and respect you for your openness.
Grace
Do any of you remember Press IE from the old Joel Rosenberg days?
I think of him so often. I looked up his poetry site and emailed him. If he gets back to me, would it be alright if I sent him a link to the cave?
Grace
Scott, Shalom!
As a fellow sufferer of depression (specifically, disthymia co-morbid with ADHD) I believe I have some insight into what you are experiencing. Up until my 40's, I was told that if I just would "focus" or if I just "tried harder", then things would "get better." This is the reason why doctors do not treat family members! Once I finally went to a psychiatrist (after being referred to one by a psychologist) and began medication, my life turned around. To the day he died, my father felt guilt that he did not see something in me that he would have seen in one of his patients.
(My brothers and sisters who are doctors have not yet made the adjustment of seeing the effects of my conditions -- they still tend to see me as "Just being Jim." However, rather than fighting that, I've adopted the role of "crazy uncle" in the family, which as actually helped win their respect on a number of occasions.)
If you developed diabetes that required insulin, would you rely solely upon prayer and counselling to "focus" and "try harder" to get your body to produce the insulin required? I know of many people who claim that it worked for them. However, the great majority of people are not blessed in that way.
Likewise, many times the feelins of depression, etc., can be traced back to an imbalance of hormones in the brain, sort of a "diabetes of the brain." I look at this hormonal imbalance as a blessing from G_D. G_D has given others the gifts of finding different chemicals that can help restore the balance; others the gifts of recognizing when those chemicals should be used and who should use them; still others the gifts of forumulating and dispensing these chemicals. All these gifts from G_D to all different people, and the greatest blessing I can receive is to recognize the value of these gifts and accept them. By doing so I am admitting to G_D my dependence on Him who gave these gifts to others, so G_D could bless me through these others.
I look back on my life and realize how many of my life choices were affected by my undiagnosed depression, and how my life would have been so much different today had I been diagnosed at an earlier age. Yet I am the way I am because G_D wanted me to be this way at this time in my life, to best serve Him.
I will keep you in my prayers.
<><
Hi Scott,
I hear your cry, my brother, and can understand where you are coming from, as others have stated! I also used to suffer from depression, anger and rage and had tried all the usual worldly remedies but I found that the most important thing to do is find out what the root cause is. My problems came form abuse as a child, rebellion to our Lord and posttraumatic stress due to military action but mostly from not having a personal and intermit relationship with God and that is the thing that you really have to focus on. Things got way out of hand and I nearly lost my family due to my running away from God and my rebellion to Him but He turned what was bad and my sin to something good by bringing me back to Him and His way.
On my journey back to The Lord I went through various steps to find my feet and get onto the correct path that He had for me, one of these was a course designed to re-establish broken relationships and this has been a real blessing to me. The course was originally designed to help restore homosexuals back to a healthy and correct relationship with God but has now blossomed out too help heal any broken relationship. This course helped me get to the root causes of my problems of depression, anger, rejection, rage and so forth and from finding these root causes I have been able to find answers and inner healing. This course does not give you immediate healing but points you in the right direction and it is up to you to walk the path with The Lord! I have been traveling this path for the past 6years and I am still learning.....
Please look at this web site: www.desertstream.org/ and find out if there is anyone in your area who could help.
I am praying for you, my brother, and may God bless you and give you His peace.
jeri
Question: "What are some hindrances to effective prayer?"
Answer: The most obvious hindrance to effective prayer is the presence of iniquity and unconfessed sins in the heart of the pray-er. Because our God is holy, there is a barrier that exists between Him and us when we come to Him with unconfessed sin in our lives. “But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear” (Isaiah 59:2). David concurred, knowing from experience that God is far from those who try to hide their sin from God: “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me” (Psalm 66:18).
The Bible refers to several areas of sin that are hindrances to effective prayer. First, when we are living according to the flesh, rather than in the Spirit, our desire to pray and our ability to effectively communicate with God are hindered. Although we receive a new nature when we are born again, that new nature still resides in our old flesh, and that old “tent” is corrupt and sinful. The flesh can gain control of our actions, attitudes and motives unless we are diligent to “put to death the deeds of the body (Romans 8:13) and be led by the Spirit in a right relationship with God. Only then will He hear and answer our prayers.
One way living in the flesh manifests itself is in selfishness, another hindrance to effective prayer. When our prayers are selfishly motivated, when we ask God for what we want rather than for what He wants, our motives hinder our prayers. “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us” (1 John 5:14). Asking according to God’s will is the same as asking in submission to whatever His will may be, whether or not we know what that will is. As in all things, Jesus is to be our example in prayer. He always prayed in the will of His Father: “Yet not my will, but yours be done” (Luke 22:42). Selfish prayers are always those that are intended to gratify our own selfish desires, and we can’t expect God to respond to such prayers. “When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures” (James 4:3).
Living according to selfish, fleshly desires will also hinder our prayers because it produces a hardness of heart toward others. If we are indifferent to the needs of others, we can expect God to be indifferent to our needs. When we go to God in prayer, our first concern should be His will. The second should be the needs of others. This stems from the understanding that we are to consider others better than ourselves and be concerned about their interests over and above our own (Philippians 2:3-4).
A major hindrance to effective prayer is a spirit of unforgiveness toward others. When we refuse to forgive others, a root of bitterness grows up in our hearts that chokes our prayers. How can we expect God to pour out His blessings upon us undeserving sinners, if we harbor hatred and bitterness toward others and an unwillingness to forgive? This principle is beautifully illustrated in the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:23-35. The principle in this story is that God has forgiven us a debt that is beyond measure (our sin), and He expects us to forgive others as we have been forgiven. To refuse to do so is to hinder our prayers.
Another major hindrance to effective prayer is unbelief and doubt. This does not mean, as some suggest, that because we come to God convinced that He will grant our requests, He is somehow obligated to do so. Praying without doubt means praying in the secure belief and understanding of God’s character, nature and motives. “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him” (Hebrews 11:6). When we come to God in prayer, doubting His character, purpose and promises, we insult Him terribly. Our confidence must be in His ability to grant any request that is in accordance with His will and purpose for our lives and with the understanding that whatever He purposes is the best possible scenario. “But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does” (James 1:6-7).
Finally, discord in the home is a definite obstacle to prayer. Peter specifically mentions this as a hindrance to the prayers of a husband whose attitude toward his wife is less than godly. “Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers” (1 Peter 3:7). Where there is a serious conflict in family relationships and the head of the household is not demonstrating the attitudes Peter mentions, his prayer communication with God is seriously hampered. Likewise, wives are to follow the biblical principles of submission to their husbands’ headship if their own prayers are not to be hindered (Ephesians 5).
Fortunately, all these prayer hindrances can be dealt with at once by coming to God in prayer characterized first by repentance. First John 1:9 assures us that “if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” Once we have done that, we enjoy a clear and open channel of communication with God, and our prayers will not only be heard and answered, they will be filled with a deep sense of joy.
Recommended Resource: Prayer, The Great Adventure by David Jeremiah.
Since so many of my friends here have suffered from depression and we all love Scott and want to see him be victorious, I posted my counselor friend's comments on depression at my blog. Even I learned from it! She says depression is an emotion created by God to signal and warn that something is wrong. Since God's children are commanded to rejoice in Him always, this makes sense to me.
Scott, we love you and are praying for you!
Kathy
Joel has a new post
Anonymous,
Thanks! A great posting!
Grace,
Yes, I remember PressIE :)
Let us know if you receive a reply from him, okay?
I think Jib tryed to contact him once, or twice too.
CHILD OF THE KING
I wrote to the author of the site you inquired about and he has graciously answered my query.
His name is Roger and here is his reply to me:
Roger W. Welty
to me
show details 3:38 PM (3 minutes ago)
Reply
It's just me.
I started the blog a little over a year ago simply as a hobby and to share my love for bible prophecy with others.
I'm not an author/teacher/preacher or anything like that. Just an average joe.
In Christ,
Roger
http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.com/
I think the site is great because he is sharing what so many outstanding people are saying.
I hope that you are doing great and your new computer is perking right along. How are your eyes these days? I am still praying for you sis and your wisdom and understanding is much desired and needed by all of us.
Shalom
Wilma
a Child of the King,
Ditto to what Wilma said :)
I've added the "Bible Prophecy Today" site to the links. I would have added the widget as well but I think that might slow up the page loading for dial-up.
Yes, I agree, we sure could use your wisdom, child.
That is really interesting info about the prophecy blog site and how that . What a great idea!
It has been nice to see the pouring out of concerns re: Scott. How sweet!
So many people in general go through so much sorrow in this world.
That's the problem...we are living in a fallen world with all sorts of problems to have to contend with....and we will have to do so till He calls us all back for good.
Personally, I can't wait.
Thank God we have Him to help us through till He does come back for us for good!
Do you want to know what Harry Reid really thinks of all the people who visit the new Tourist Center in Washington DC.
Read HERE
I wonder if they know how much we think they stink?
Grany
Immanuel
Methinks Mr Reid is very flexible. Not too many people are able to insert their feet into their mouths. Although mac often makes a valiant effort...
IDF preparing options for strike at Iran without US assent
Mac,
Thanks for posting the article on Iran/Israel! When I opened my e-mail this morning, I saw that was what the majority of my newsletters were discussing, etc.
Reading the newspaper/computer news, is about like reading Bible prophecy anymore, isn't it?
When men reject truth, the darkness of spiritual falsehood replaces it. Is this a shocking sign of the times or what?!
Joel has a new post already.
MAC, you don't have to take that from Hyde! Lock his closet door and slip his food under it for a few days. Shame on you Mr. Hyde.
Oh, by the way, here is a link you might find interesting Mac. I am thinking seriously of adding it to mine. LOOK E
WAR and RUMORS of WAR!
Thanks Grany. Hyde is hyeding right now. But you never know when he's going to grumble awake.
Mac, tie his shoe laces together or does he not wear shoes?
You two make a good comedy team much like Abbott and Costello.
There is a lot of conversations going on the blog about Hillary Clinton's passing the questions that will be aimed at her by the Republicans and conservative Democrats at her cabinet evaluation testing.
Oh, this thing is getting juicer by the minute and I am enjoying all of it greatly. I have a few questions I would like to ask her myself.
You all have a great day and enjoy the time left before the Christmas panic sets in.
Grany
Grany,
I'd like to hear a few of the questions you have for Hillary, LOL!
Want to share? (big smile :)
Is everyone out Christmas shopping? Socks and undies will do for me.
PS Grany, I'm Abbott.
nope, I'm right here talking to you!
Mr. Hyde,
Nope, I'm not Christmas shopping yet. I just got thru with a half dozen Birthdays! EEK!
No Christmas shopping for me. My kids prefer spending their inheritance for things of their own liking. I got a surprise for them. I enjoy spending their inheritance also. Heheheheh!
No, Marge, NO! Never warn the encroaching enemy of your plans. She is sneaky enough without giving anything away. But I have often wondered why she doesn't enjoy baking cookies, haven't you.
I think it is very news worthy that Wild Billie was willing to give up the list of donors for his library and his lectures and investments in order for Hillary to get the office. Maybe it is just because they have a big heart to just serve their country and slave away for all of us but you know, I don't believe it for one second. Arkansas is holding a lot of answers to the mystery of Hill and Bill. Digging is something I am really good at and I might have to rethink my retirement for the "Good of the Country", don't you know.
My goodness Mr. Hyde, you mean you are the won who does the hard work while Lou is still trying to figure out "Who is on First?"?
Grany
New post is up.
Oh, No! Green Aliens again.
Won instead of One! Yikes, to steal Marge's classic exclamation.
Grany
well this will get lost in the shuffle-
Alesia
thanks for checking on me. busy wednesday and developed food poisoning thursday to the point I couldn't manage to get out of bed Friday for any length of time. even sitting in my overstuffed chair yesterday was too much like effort. I am doing somewhat better today although not sure how much. I even called and canceled my office hours! can't tell you the last time I had to do that.
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