Psa 32:6 Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him.
Psa 32:7 You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble; You surround me with songs of deliverance.
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Happy Father’s Day to all you Dads out there!
Lisa,
If you think about it, “anything goes” is the prevailing attitude right now, and the Holy Spirit is present. Scripture tells us the Holy Spirit convicts of sin but never does it say He restrains sin. Daniel 10:21 however points to Michael as one who restrains. “However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.” My vote is for Michael as the restrainer, not the Holy Spirit.
Jesus own words in Mt. 24:15-21 tells us that “great tribulation” follows the AofD: “Therefore when you see the AofD which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…flee…for then there will be great tribulation/mega thlipsis , such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.”
As for the day of the Lord – Isaiah 2:11 tells us that the Lord alone will be exalted in that day: “The proud look of man will be abased, and the loftiness of man will be humbled, and the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.” Right now man is exalting himself, we cannot be in the day of the Lord. Can the day of the Lord be happening when Antichrist has exalted himself in the temple, is demanding worship, and killing those who do not comply?” No. Therefore, the day of the Lord must occur after Antichrist exalts himself.
I place Gog and Magog after D’s 70th Week has begun. I actually see more than one campaign or battle in Ez. 38-39. I see Ez. 38:10-12 as the armies of Antichrist as they surround Jerusalem and get ready to take over the temple. Verse 11: “I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls, and having no bars.” Israel has signed the covenant with AC, I think this is describing when AC is getting ready to break the covenant of peace. AC then moves in…this would be prior to the day of the Lord.
Ez. 39 seems to be describing the Armageddon campaign or battle which will involve Gog and Magog, during the day of the Lord, which I understand to fall during the latter half of D’s 70th Week. I believe the rapture has already happened and now the day of the Lord is underway. He alone is being exalted. Ez. 39:21: “And I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them.” By this time too Israel as a nation has come to salvation. Ez. 39:28: “Then they will know that I am the LORD their God…And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Lord God.”
Going back to Ez. 39:17,18: “…Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood. You shall eat the flesh of mighty men, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats, and bulls…”
Compare that passage with the Armageddon passage in Rev. 19:17: “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God; in order that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
Mac,
Think of the day of the Lord as a two-sided coin…the day of Christ…when He returns and we are raptured…Ph. 1:6: “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ.” Then, once we are safely tucked into His presence, received unto Himself, and the 144,000 are sealed…His day of the Lord’s wrath begins to rain down.
I was hoping to be number one but overcomer came over and overcame my best efforts.
Jim G.
Here is some string music that was played in the Jewish temple.
MUSIC
I didn't mean to Jim!
I'm lagging way behind at #4!
Jim C. - Thanks for the update, I've been worried. The photos really say it all, you poor people there.
HEY!
Overcomer overcame my #4 spot!
I didn't mean to Alesia!
prayers for travel monday
plus I seem to have either torn tendons in my right foot, fractured one or two of my toes and maybe one of the foot bones. it doesn't hurt as bad as it did but it still hurts plenty. I will be extremely busy this week and on my feet many many hours. I hurt myself several days ago and have been hobbling around since. nothing could be done or can be done about the problem really so didn't bother to go to ER. I'll see my podiatrist hopefully tuesday. I'll let you all know.
my folks are traveling to our home tomorrow also so prayer for them as well. they get into arizona an hour before we do!
Hi Jib,
Praying for you & all of family's safe travel.
Also praying for complete healing of your foot. Sorry to hear it.
overcomer,
Yes I agree the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and transforms us into the image of Christ.
I think you would have to agree that if all the Christains left it would really be "anything" goes. It's bad now, yes-but I'm sure without the % of people standing up for moral values/mission work it would quickly get alot worse.
It's more immoral now because of the lapse of Christain values & the liberal mindset. Certainly when I was a kid it was a more "innocent" time than now.
So the restrainer whether he is Michael or the Holy Spirit is either restraining the same amount and we just got worse or has been letting up on the restraining power and therefore things became worse. What do you think?
Interesting you think Gog & Magog happen Mid-Trib. I guess if it were to happen in a year or so then you would think we are now currently in the Trib? Everything is almost lined up so that it could possibly happen soon.
I've referenced those scriptures you mention in Rev back and forth. If there were not for some key points ommited I could go for it.
Such as no covenant of peace, Anti-Christ, or the entire nation of 7 mo burying dead & 7 yrs of burning weapons-& I think some of the countries mentioned are not the same as well.
It can't be after the AofD because the Christain Jews flee to the mountains and there is no peace and safety for them in Jerusalem. It could only be when there is peace-but it doesn't make sense to me if they have signed a covt.w/the Anti-Christ and while he is there "undercover"-God intervenes for them in this attack.As a nation they bury dead and burn weapons after Gog & Magog.
This is not mentioned in Rev & how could they do it at the covenant breaking point when they are on the run?
How could it be two seperate events? The Anti-Christ's forces surround the temple and get ready for the takeover-then there is a time delay and it ends up being the battle of Armageddon?
So to me it has to be a seperate event possibly somewhat of a foreshadow to the battle of Armageddon.
After God intervenes to save Israel-the Jews will interpret this event as the last war and the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom. The Jews will know that God has turned his face back to them & we know 144,000 are sealed and protected & the two witnesses eventually come back for a revival.
I have a book written from a Jewish prophetic event perspective(haven't started it yet)but I think that they believe the Messiah will come "after" they bring in "Peace on earth." So if Gog & Magog happened before the beginning of the 70th week - they think God's on their side and they'll want to sign that "peace treaty." How could they go wrong not knowing that in reality they are back in God's focus but it will be a time of national judgment and testing. Why couldn't God be exalted in this senario? Obviously He would be because the whole world will know it's a supernatural intervention. He's exalted here and Christ is exalted @ Armageddon. So the Day of the Lord could span time- the Day the Lord turns his face back to his people Israel.
If the Day of the Lord was a literal "day" such as Armageddon then I don't think "it will come as a thief in the night" would apply. It will be an obvious gathering of armies to battle God in that day.
Granted there is a similar description of a great slaughter in both instances.
So the puzzle remains.
Ahh,
Didn't know that post was so long.
I thought this was interesting.Never thought of the earth swallowing the river in terms of an "Archeological Find."
What if a big earthquake happened and they found something great! Like Noah's Ark or who knows what.
"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
"This could not refer to an army, but it has been interpreted as a "river of lies." This flood from the serpent's mouth is easily interpreted as a flood of false information, that tends to discredit and weaken our faith in God, and the message of the Bible. This kind of misinformation is very prevalent today."
"The flood mentioned in Daniel 9:26 may well be the same flood that is depicted in Revelation 12:15, where "the flood from the mouth of the serpent" threatens to carry away the woman. Interestingly, the flood from the serpent's mouth is swallowed up when the earth opens its mouth. This could picture discoveries from archaeology and from geology that confirm the scriptures."
If the DotL and the rapture really do occur at the same time or concurrently then the post-tribulationists are correct, which was my initial position until I began looking deeper into the issues. (Post-Trib has its fair share of problems too)
Part of my reasoning is that Mat 24 talks about Israel being regathered to the land. This will happen after the great tribulation which is 3.5 years. The argument for Mat 24 is usually about whether there is ASLO a rapture involved but there seems to be little disagreement that the Lord is talking about Israel’s regathering.
Mac,
To which verse(s) in Mt. 24 do you apply a regathering of Israel in the land?
Saying good-night but I'll check back in tomorrow Mac. I'm guessing v. 31?
Kathy, methinks we’ve been here before. Yes, v 31 certainly refers to an OT expectation of Israel. The Lord is talking to Jews here and they understood it as that, as the church wasn’t even an entity then.
Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
After the resurrection the disciples asked the Lord the following question:
Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"
Their focus was on Israel’s restoration not the rapture and I suggest this is because of the discussion in Mat 24.
Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Isa 27:13 It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.
Isa 43:5 - 7 "Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west. "I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' And to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth, Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made."
Isa 11:12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
T. Francis Glasson wrote: In the OT and also in later Jewish writings two things are associated with the gathering of the dispersed: the trumpet and the ensign (or standard). The following prayer still appears in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book: Sound the great trumpet for our freedom: lift up the ensign to gather our exiles and gather us from the four corners of the earth. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who gatherest the banished ones of thy people Israel. (Quoted from Authorized Daily Prayer Book of the United Hebrew Congregations of the British Empire. [S Singer] p 48) See Renald Shower’s book “Maranatha Our Lord, Come”.
Jib, praying for healing for your foot. I'm sure I mentioned before that God miraculously healed my calf when I couldn't afford to be on crutches. May He heal you too.
Congrats to China: New #1 Emitter of Greenhouse Gasses
The Presidential Candidates and Israel
Bombs Away
Children of Light in a Dark World
Ephesians 5:7-14
here is a list of both the gog and armageddon wars. put these two sections side by side and note the significant differences between them.
Gog and Magog Ezekiel 38 & 39
Muslim Allies (Ezekiel 38:3-6)
specific nations invade 38:1-7 gives 10 names
Urged on by a hatred of the Jewish people
wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
Led by Gog (Ezekiel 38:2)
"An Attempt to Invade Israel"
Coming to take a spoil, to take a prey 38:11-12
fire on Magog and the islands - coastlands
God attacks their homelands
Egypt (Mizraim) ...is not listed
Babylon is not listed
Gog/Magog is attempting a "surprise" attack
They think they are dwelling "safely"
Safely" employs the word, betach,
can mean false confidence;
not necessarily in physical security,
Results from Gog
God intervenes ... He supernaturally comes to Israel's rescue! (Ezekiel 39:3-7)
there will be plagues, torrents of rain, hailstones, and burning sulfur.
a great earthquake, the world will tremble.
mountains overturned, cliffs will crumble, walls fall in Israel
Overflowing rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone...(Ezekiel 38:22)
nations will begin to turn on each other.
"Invaders Destroyed"Ezekiel 39
the largest case of death by friendly fire ever seen.
Clean-Up Time!
The weapons will be burned with fire for 7 years - (Ezekiel 39:9)
My holy name will be known among my people Israel 39:7
Israel will plunder it’s attackers
The House of Israel will be burying Gog and all his multitude for 7 months - (Ezekiel 39:12)
Begin searching for bones at the end of 7 months. 39:14
the nations will know the reason for exile
from that day forward Isr will know that I am their Lord 39:22
I will no longer hide my face
I will pour out my spirit on them
Armageddon Rev 16:13-21
is a world war
will involve all nations
end of the tribulation
to defeat the Antichrist
establish his millennial kingdom
An Attempt to Destroy the Jews
Led by the Antichrist Dan. 11, Rev.16:13-21
gathered together by demonic forces (Rev 16:13-14, Zech 14:2)
Gathering in Har-Magedon (Rev 16:16)
Coming against Jerusalem (Zech 14:2-4, Zech 12:2-3)
Wage War with The Lamb of God!'
to make war with Jesus, The Lamb, at His 2nd Coming w/ His Saints! (Rev.17:4, Rev. 19:11-21)
Egypt- King of the South (Dan.11) involved.
The Destruction of Babylon ( Is 13, Is 14, Jer 50, Jer 51, Rev 17, Rev 18)
Armageddon is no surprise - the Coming Messiah
- Zech. 14:2-4 "For I will gather All Nations
- Zech. 12:2-3 "all the people of the earth..."
- Rev. 16:14 "and of the whole world.."
the last 42 months of the Trib will be anything but peaceful for Israel. (Jer. 30:7, Mt. 24:21)
Euphrates River dried up to prepare the way of the 'Kings of the East' (Rev 16:12)
Results from Armageddon
Messiah Yeshua Makes His Victory Ascent Upon Mount of Olives! ( Zech. 14:3-4, Rev 16:17-21, Mt. 24:29, Joel 3:15-17)
Voices, Thunders, and Lightnings (Rev 16:18)
MAJOR Earthquake! "such as was not since men were upon the earth.."(Rev 16:18-20)
Mountains & Islands disappearing! (Revelation 16:21)
100 lb. Hailstones (Rev 16:21)
The Antichrist & False Prophet Destroyed!
the beast, and the false were cast alive into a lake of fire Rev. 19:20-21
No mention of any clean up,
No need for Israel to burn weapons for 7 years in Millenial Kingdom
1000 YEAR MILLENNIAL REIGN BEGINS - SATAN BOUND!
LW
thanks for prayers.
fortunately or unfortunately not sure which- whatever is wrong with my foot will either get better on it's own or need surgery. there will be in in between treatment. just a matter of speed.
LW
is it really you????? how have you been? what's been going on with you?
excellent comparison of the two wars by the way.
to all
I would add that some like Dr Frucht, if I am recalling correctly, feel that the day of the Lord does not refer to a single day but to the actual Great Tribulation time as a whole (the last 3.5 years)
I would note that Dr Ice has in one of his books the interesting notation when talking about some of the early church fathers who were pre trib he does note one or two who thought that the rapture was pre trib, imminent with an undefined time between it and a 3.5 year tribulation and then the millennial reign.
LW
Thanks for pointing out all of the specifics re: both wars.
Great to hear from you!
Sometimes it's revisited but I come back to the same conclusion no matter how I look @ it.
I just noticed in Matt 24 re: "The coming of the Son of Man."
Matt 24:30 "Coming on the clouds of heaven w/power & great glory."
Matt 24:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory,....
I wanted to see if there was any difference in Matt 24:36 where no one knows the day or hour (Suprise visit here) and see if there was a descriptive difference. It does not mention that He comes in "glory."
The rest of Matt 24 & 25 all talk about watching and being ready until you get down to 25:31 then He's back to judge the nations is on His throne of glory.
I'm guessing coming in "Glory" means that is a time where He is exalted and stands apart.
1 Thess 4 & 5 describe that this "day of the Lord" is a suprise and no mention of "glory."
2nd Thess 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe...
Thes 2:8.... and will destroy with the brightness of his coming (same as above)
So here we are back in the Trib and talking about "glory."
Now there is mention of suprise in Revelation 16:15 right after the bowl judgments. "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walks naked and they see his shame."
Right before this is the gathering of the nations in which the actual demons are used to gather them to battle God in Armageddon. So how would this "thief" concept apply when this is a particular worldwide event? It's right after the Euphrates dries up so the armys can cross to the battle field. What kind of suprise is that?
Or is He just backtracking and saying "watch" ahead of time before all these events take place so you won't be caught off guard and either have to endure this or have delusion set upon you & become involved in the battle.
This UN & Global Warmingissue is going to cause division among the general population and "watching" Christians.
I have some liberal minded friends that are not happy with me stating that there is nothing Man can do to fix Global Warming and that God has predicted natural catastrophies to happen in the Bible before the start of judgment in the Tribulation.
THEY ARE NOT AMUSED WITH ME WHAT-SO-EVER.
So you can see how this will cause division-and those who choose to remain rebellious to the Lord will attach themselves to whatever or whoever is on the Global Warming bandwagon. (Security & Safety in numbers)
They are going to turn on us with a vengence while others may be more responsive to listen.
We are in Global something whether it's Warming or otherwise. So since the majority are going w/the Warming concept I agree w/them and point out how God foreknew it would come about and is a sign of the start of judgment so now is the time to repent & seek the God.
If you don't have any interest in God then who wants to hear that?
On the flip side my daughter just went to VBS at a Lutheran church last week. It had a "save the rainforest" theme. In their lobby is a stand w/CO2 coffee & food items for sale. (Save the planet)
They did a heartfelt/terrific job w/the event but the underlying them was "save the planet."
So you can see how Christians are even joining in on this. THEY ARE NOT LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE.
If you speak against this in anyway-then your labled a "bad" person who does not care for our planet and future generations. I mention how I recycle and do what I can regardless but we as a human race are not going to "save the planet."
Anyone else have experience w/this?
Jim C~
Wow! I have not only seen the pics that you posted but have been looking at other pics online of Coralville and other areas.
We all saw from Katrina, that the impact of this kind of disaster is so far reaching.
Praying for you!
Grace
Good Morning All,
LW, good to see those initials again. I remember when I was first looking into prewrath, I asked at Joel's if anyone had heard about it. You said you looked into it but didn't see it. I see it so clearly now.
Mac, you know I view Mt. 24 differently and I'll leave it at that.
Lisa,
This discussion has been fun. When comparing passages you don't always get entirely all the same information. But the sum of God's Word is truth. In that we can have great confidence.
Ez. 38-39 is one of those difficult passages. I do place it after D's 70th Week has begun. Ron Wallace at Bible Fragrances, a prewrath perspective, suggests that the Ez. 38:11-the reference to unwalled villages-is referring to the peace and safety Israel is enjoying with those who have aligned with AC, so this would be after he desecrates the temple.
Have a great day all. I need to get to work on the Father's Day pics I took at church yesterday.
Thought I'd pop on and say hi.
I see all of you have been busy!
Great to see so many posts.
Will check all the posts out asap.
<><
Great summary, LW!
Thanks SO much!
Hi all!
For anyone interested, Here is a web address for a series of videos on UFO encounters that make the case for these encounters being like encounters with demons and evil spirits ect. This will certainly convince anyone what UFO's really are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0CGV0SfP9k&feature=related
Marantha!
Shalom, all! Just dropping in for a quick "Hi!" The library is asking people to limit their internet use to 1 hour,which I've overstayed by at least 2 hours, so this will be quick.
The water up in Cedar Rapids is starting to recede, perhaps quicker than people expected. Problem is that we have a couple of heavy industries in the flooded area, and last night at 12:30 AM a decision was made NOT to allow people to return to their homes, even for a few minutes to gather things, until they can be sure there's no major contamination. There are a lot of very, very unhappy people in CR right now.
It's believed the flooding in Iowa City/Coralville has crested, but it's not receding at this time. No more sandbagging, and any other help I can offer will have to wait.
Jib, praying for your foot and for your well-being.
To throw just a few more drops of water in the confusing flood over Gog/Magog-Armageddon, I'd like to refer you to the latest blog entry by Mark Mallett, The Seven Year Trial - Part II. He is the Catholic evangelist/prophet up in Canada who has been writing some very interesting material analyzing events of today. In this blog entry, he brings together some of the insights he's been having to the past three years, namely, to set forth a chronology of events based upon Christ’s Passion, since it is Church teaching that His Body will follow in His footsteps (Catechism of the Catholic Church 677). This chronology, as I discovered, flows parallel to St. John’s vision in Revelation.
Granted, his analysis will have a Catholic view, that will grate upon some people's nerves. Tough. If the Catholic viewpoint doesn't appeal to you, try to read through it to see if it speaks some truth to you regardless. I'm sure his analysis will be thought-provoking.
(Jimmy, put down that stick right now and stop provoking those thoughts! Right now!)
Gotta go -- the library police are coming my way...
Jesus I trust in you!
<><
There have been some very interesting posts lately. LW's comment on the comparison between the Battle of Gog and Magog and the Battle of Armageddon was excellent! As many times as I have looked at this, I always come to the same conclusions. The participants are different, Gog and the Antichrist are very different leaders, the reason for the battles is very different, the results are very different (the armies are destroyed in both battles, but in different ways), etc. I see no parallels. It is amazing how many people seem to miss this.
I believe that the Jews will be convinced that the Battle of Gog and Magog and Armageddon are the same war. They will accept the leader that emerges shortly after the Battle of Gog and Magog as the Messiah, when in reality, he is the AC. I think they will accept him because they think that Gog and Magog is the final battle, and the false prophet will pass himself off as Elijah. I think the false prophet will offer proof that he is Elijah by calling down fire from heaven as it is recorded in Revelation that the false prophet will. He will tell the Jews to follow the AC because he is the Messiah who has just defeated the armies of Gog and Magog.
Well, that is my two cents worth.
<><
lisa,
The Global Warming farce is very aggravating to me. It especially bothers me when I see believers falling for this lie in droves. Not only can man not fix the problem, Global Warming is not even occurring. The average temperature on the planet has not increased since 1998. The only reason that Global Warming is even being discussed is that the left wingers like Al Gore are getting all the media. Al and lots of others have invested hugely in alternative energies. If one actually takes the time to research the topic, they will realize that it is all a bunch of crap! The U.S. is on the verge of economic collapse and the left wingers want to throw billions of dollars at a problem that doesn't exist.
The crazy weather is in no way connected to so called Global Warming, although the left wingers desperately want everyone to believe that it is. It is so much easier for people to believe that than we are in the last days and the pestilences and disasters that Christ talked about are actually occurring. ATTY would call these people "sheeple". :-) ATTY has just started a two week vacation and I miss him already. :-(
I will get off my soap box now. :-)
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yup, it's me. I have been reading for quite a while, but too tired to toss in wrenches. I have been working nites and sleeping days, but now I am switching to days again. (actually, early mornings). I am almost ready to say goodby to aching joints, and go back into ministry where I can do most of my work with my mouth. after coming back from being terminal, thanks to a miracle, I am free to experience different sore spots.
Harold, I think that you nailed it regarding the viewpoint of Israel after the Gog Magog war. In my understanding, this was is won via David's contemporary "mighty men" where each person can defeat a thousand. God wins by empowering His people. Victory will be miraculous, but for those who do not recognize God, they will believe that they won by their own strength and wisdom. Armageddon will not be won by "mighty men", but directly by God.
While I do not know whether the Gog war occurs after the rapture or before, I do believe that just such a nuclear confrontation will be needed for the AC to be revealed as the great savior of the world.
Imagine a month where a nuclear confrontation with Iran and Moscow causes a great glowing in the middle east, and then add the crisis arising from the rapture. I believe that there will be such a demand for a person to take control and stop all of the destruction.
As far as the discussion regarding the "restrainer" I believe that He is the Holy Spirit as he is currently dwelling and moving within the church. I do not believe that Michael is strong enough for this mother of all battles.
God bless you all,
LW
GT,
That was a great link!
It confirms what was revealed to me and what I had scratched up for info to share.
It does seem nuts but when I view the whole picture and how it can tie into all the other factors of deception out there-I can believe it. This would create The Great Apostasy and THE LIE. And what a lie that would be!! It will be interesting to see what else pops up in the future related to this.
PART 2 is good as well. I saw that it went at least all the way to a part 8.
Jim C.,
I have liked some of the things Mark Mallett writes but I think he's off on this one.
Besides, he's missing the "Alien" connection.
And then-Mary is inserted in there again. If I see Mary standing on the earth with the cross behind her I'm run'in for the hills.
It's going to be "Mother Earth" one way or another I guess.
Well, I don't know what to think about all of the alien stuff.
But I do think that Harold and LW (and many others) are correct about the War of Gog and Magog and Armageddon being 2 diff wars, from anything I have studied and read.
I have been taught that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, as well.
Jim, glad to hear things the waters are receding. I finally got to watch the news tonight and was shocked at time images of the area!
What a bummer for so many people...not to mention the damage to the corn crops...just what we needed.
Lori, thanks for checking in with the USGS re: earthquake reporting and sharing that info with us.
<><
I found this off of Joel R's site:
Syria threatens war with Israel If
It was also interesting to read the people's comments below. Such as this "prophet's" comment:
"Yes, our King is preparing His people now for the days ahead which bring in our captivity and removal to go before the 8th King over in Jerusalem which is fast approaching. These words I speak are not mine, but God''s who has written them for us and has whispered in my ear and told me to proclaim from the roofs. You will either hear the words spoken or deny the this truth to your own shame. Seek him in this matter. I only am doing what the King has instructed me to do."
Don't you wonder who's been doing the whispering?
Here is another from the same "prophet" guy:
"144000 comes back with Jesus because He is on the earth with them. All the things written concerning the 1st resurrection is all encompassing this earth with men.
NO ONE HAS ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN BUT THE KING. When Jesus comes which is soon, The 144000 prepared for him in the wilderness HERE ON EARTH will come back with the King. Rev 14:1 No lie will be in them because they have been given God''s spirit. Amen the King comes soon"
Look, he's setting them up for the Anti-Christ.
The overall temperature of the bloggers is that they feel something prophetic is going to happen soon & they are all scrambling around trying to figure out what it is.
Interesting article with more details on A-jad's Madhi beliefs...sounds like he really thinks things are coming up fast...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3556591,00.html
Blessings,
Jen
For anyone interested;
This is the last (I hope) of the links on Todd Bentley that I will post. This link has a lot on his history and possible involvement with the occult. It could explain why he acts the way he does and the possible direction of this revival.
http://www.rapturealert.com/2008/061608tracksofwolf.asp
P.S. Very good posts by all recently, thank you all!!
Marantha!
OK that didn't work;
Go to RaptureAlert here;
http://www.
rapturealert.com/
index2.html
Then click on the heading "Footprints of a Prophet or Tracks of a Wolf?"
Marantha!
Condi’s Middle East Swansong
Hi, LW, I agree with the others: it was a very good post on the Gog & Magog topic. I still think very highly of Doug Berner's book "The Silence is Broken" and refer to it often. I listen to Israel National Radio now and then and I get the distinct impression that Israel is setting herself up into accepting the AC as her Messiah.
BTW, Kathy, I do have Rosenthal's book in my library.
I'm informed that the US isn't the exception here and the same thing has occurred in Australia.
How our Marxist faculties got that way
Nate, glad you posted, I was wondering how you were doing.
gt,
I agree with Lisa. That was a very interesting video you posted a link to! I watched part one and part two.
One of the things I found so interesting about the videos was that author Whitley Shrieber was in the first one. He wrote a book called "Communion" a few years, which is supposed to be a true account of the alien encounters he and his wife experienced.
A guy at work that I have been witnessing to for awhile told me I should read "Communion". He read a few years ago, and thought it was pretty scary. When he mentioned the book, I told him that I thought all these stories of alien encounters (the ones that are not made up) are actually examples of demonic activity. It is interesting that this video supports that view.
(that was me that posted then deleted that last post due to a typo)
I encourage people to read the article GT posted, written by Jan Markell, ""Footprints of a Prophet or Tracks of a Wolf?"
I get emails from Jan Markell and this article was one of the emails she sent out a couple of days ago.
I have not spent much time looking into this whole Todd Bentley thing...but did read this.
What is confusing to me..is that his website also lists the basic Christian beliefs...the 4 spiritual laws, etc.
I can't imagine how these 2 seemingly opposite things can be happening at the same time.
Scarey.
Nate,
Great to hear from you! Your list says it all. Jesus is coming soon.
It is almost surreal to look at all that is falling into place. I have really been leaning even more into the Lord as of late, I think surrendering alot of things that I may have been holding back. I just want to walk closer.
I think people are really not looking at all of the things happening in our country in terms of prophecy because they really do not want to. It is just too frightening. They would prefer to believe that all of this is temporary and that it will someday be like it used to be.
Aside from EVERYTHING else on that list that is happening, there are the elections. I have 2 young daughters who will be voting this fall. They have really bought into the "Obama will rescue this country" speeches. I can almost see how this is a preparation of attitude for the Antichrist. People are really buying into the rhetoric, lock, stock and barrel.
It is not just the youth. My dad is 74 years old and thinks that Bush has robbed him of financial security and cannot wait to get a democrat in office.
The same people, especially people in my church are totally oblivious to Israel and count the whole subject as too controversial to even address.
God bless all of you today. I really value the fellowship and conversation here!
Grace
LW
when you feel led would you testify as to your miracle? so we can more properly rejoice with you.
To all
Regarding global warming. I know how evangelicals are going to buy into this because I have seen it from one of my profs in college back when I took a required class. There has been a green movement for some time predating this whole global warming thing within evangelical circles. We had to read a book on environmental stewardship of the earth and it's resources back in 1983! The thoughts go like this. God commanded us to have dominion over the earth but elsewhere he also commands us to be good stewards of that which he has given us. Good stewards would not "rape" the land into submission, destroy ecosystems, decimate plant and animal populations etc. This was being taught over 20 years ago. Of course they're going to by into global warming and the whole co2 thing-they want to be "good stewards" of the earth because they feel that is what God himself has commanded.
This is rather a long post sorry. This is my question to Dr Frucht on kids and the rapture. The question is not answered directly as his assistant explains.
Dr Frucht
I and others have been having a conversation recently about children and the rapture. Our questions are these
1-Is there any actual Scriptural basis for all children under a
certain age, babies in utero, babes in arms etc to be raptured and
thus avoid the Tribulation? Some say no noting that as in the days of Noah so shall the second coming be-life went on as usual-marriage,
children etc and then the flood came and destroyed them all-pregnant women and children included. Other examples of God not sparing children given would be the conquests of the Promised Land and not to spare anyone. Those however might be special circumstances as you have noted that both were God's actions in getting rid of abnormal
offspring of fallen angels and women. On the other hand clearly David felt that his infant son who died went straight to be with God.
Others also point to age 12 as the cutoff because it is at that age
that Jewish male children become accountable under the law. There
might be some truth to that as it really isn't until age 12 that
children have a grasp of abstract concepts like some choices result in permanent results. Christ loved children so much that I guess some of us have difficulty believing that He would leave young children on the face of the planet who could be forced into taking the mark by
authorities or their parents. Granted a child born at the beginning of the tribulation would be 7 by the end of the tribulation but the mark requirement would actually start occurring when those kids were 3.5 years old-hardly old enough to make a choice of that magnitude when they can hardly grasp the permanence of their choice. Further they would be easy targets for parents and others to just give them the mark without their consent.
2-what about the unsaved young children of Christian parents? if
Christian parents have infant/young children and all children aren't
raptured what happens to their kids? As a parent although I wouldn't want to be here for the tribulation if my young child wasn't going with me in the rapture I'd want to stay to keep them protected.
we could likely apply any answer of the above to the mentally retarded.
thanks for you answer on this topic
Dear
Thank you for contacting Ariel Ministries. Arnold will be out of the office for quite some time. I am sending to you an answer he recently sent concerning children and salvation.
To answer your question, sadly, the Bible does not come out and clearly state what happens to people who die in infancy. The Bible nowhere speaks about an “age of accountability” and therefore, there is no such age. We simply are taught that the sin nature is present upon conception and therefore, all who are conceived and all who are born already fall under the condemnation of Adam.
The actual question concerns infants who pass away before they have an opportunity to be old enough to understand the gospel and receive it. On this point the Bible does not teach one way or the other, and some conclude they go to Heaven and some conclude they go to Hell, and others conclude if they are baptized they go to Heaven and if they are not baptized they do not go to Heaven. These are all assumptions people make, the Bible nowhere teaches. So as much as I would like to give you
a specific answer, I am not able to do so biblically. I know what I wish to believe, but in my case, if I cannot prove it from Scripture, then I have to conclude that we do not have an answer and we an trust that the Lord will do right whichever way it may be.
What we can clearly teach is that baptism or lack of baptism does not
affect the future of infants since baptism does not carry any salvation value. Baptism no more determines whether an infant goes to Heaven anymore we determine if an adult goes to Heaven. But beyond, we simply do not know.
So I wish I could give you a more comforting letter, but biblically I
need to stop where the Bible stops and unfortunately, on this point it
stops with less knowledge than we would like to have.
Yours for the salvation of Israel,
Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum
I would agree that the comment by Jan Markell were quite enlightening about Todd Bentley. If the faithful can thus be this easily led astray-what hope do those who aren't raptured have with not being deceived by the false prophet and the AC?
While not making this claim directly against Mr Bentley-it wouldn't surprise me if in the last days there arises a pseudo-Christian prophet who becomes accepted by Christians and after the true Christians are raptured he is left to become the false prophet-after all if he was accepted by the faithful and he starts talking about the AC as being the deliverer after the rapture we as Christians will have given a stamp of approval to what he will say after we are gone because we accepted what he said when we are here!
Jim C
I have only peripherally been following the flood as I tend to limit my internet time drastically while at meetings and I don't trust the MSM to give a straight picture. I must also admit to not following any of the links that anyone provided this last 10 days or so since it was all I could do to keep up with the general tenor and flow of the comments. The pictures I did see were horrible. Any particular group we could send supplies-like hotel soaps etc or money to?? you are the man on the scene so let us know!
Nate
outstanding list!
to that I would add as I have read Dr Frucht and others comments about the nephilium topic that we need to see some sort of super humans or weird animal humans-the process of course has been started with cloning and who knows where it will lead. Then there is the whole concept of artificial intelligence.
A true "minority" of Christians are voicing their beliefs and are engulfed by the "rainbow" flags.
Where is the outcry? This is coming to pass because who's standing up to declare the truth?
Hardly a soul.
When I was in CA-our Church was signing petitions for quite some time against the Gay Marriage law. But if there is an outcry-we are not seeing it in the media anyway.
(Big surprise, huh?)
Repent or Parish
In both San Francisco and Beverly Hills, where two women became the first same-sex couple in Los Angeles County to marry legally, small groups of protesters waved signs with sayings like "Repent or Perish," but they were outnumbered by supporters waving rainbow-striped flags.
Groups that oppose same-sex marriage have pursued several legal avenues to stop the weddings. On Monday, just hours before the ruling went into effect, a conservative legal group asked a Sacramento court to order the California agency that oversees marriages to stop issuing gender-neutral marriage licenses.
A hearing was set for Tuesday.
A UCLA study issued last week estimated that half of California's more than 100,000 same-sex couples will get married over the next three years, and 68,000 out-of-state couples will travel here to exchange vows.
This Trucewas front page here but not in Ynet news.
Here is view from YNET NEWS
Concerning the global warming debate;
At least there are some,(I would consider it a majority) of scientists that are finding the agenda of "global warming" is not only bad science but harmful to the population of the earth!
HEAT OF THE MOMENT
31,000 scientists reject 'global warming' agenda
'Mr. Gore's movie has claims no informed expert endorses'
Posted: May 19, 2008
8:51 pm Eastern
By Bob Unruh
© 2008 WorldNetDaily
More than 31,000 scientists across the U.S. – including more than 9,000 Ph.D.s in fields such as atmospheric science, climatology, Earth science, environment and dozens of other specialties – have signed a petition rejecting "global warming," the assumption that the human production of greenhouse gases is damaging Earth's climate.
"There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate," the petition states. "Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth."
The Petition Project actually was launched nearly 10 years ago, when the first few thousand signatures were assembled. Then, between 1999 and 2007, the list of signatures grew gradually without any special effort or campaign.
But now, a new effort has been conducted because of an "escalation of the claims of 'consensus,' release of the movie 'An Inconvenient Truth' by Mr. Al Gore, and related events," according to officials with the project.
"Mr. Gore's movie, asserting a 'consensus' and 'settled science' in agreement about human-caused global warming, conveyed the claims about human-caused global warming to ordinary movie goers and to public school children, to whom the film was widely distributed. Unfortunately, Mr. Gore's movie contains many very serious incorrect claims which no informed, honest scientist could endorse," said project spokesman and founder Art Robinson.
WND submitted a request to Gore's office for comment but did not get a response.
Robinson said the dire warnings about "global warming" have gone far beyond semantics or scientific discussion now to the point they are actually endangering people.
"The campaign to severely ration hydrocarbon energy technology has now been markedly expanded," he said. "In the course of this campaign, many scientifically invalid claims about impending climate emergencies are being made. Simultaneously, proposed political actions to severely reduce hydrocarbon use now threaten the prosperity of Americans and the very existence of hundreds of millions of people in poorer countries," he said.
In just the past few weeks, there have been various allegations that both shark attacks and typhoons have been sparked by "global warming."
The late Professor Frederick Seitz, the past president of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and winner of the National Medal of Science, wrote in a letter promoting the petition, "The United States is very close to adopting an international agreement that would ration the use of energy and of technologies that depend upon coal, oil, and natural gas and some other organic compounds."
"This treaty is, in our opinion, based upon flawed ideas. Research data on climate change do not show that human use of hydrocarbons is harmful. To the contrary, there is good evidence that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide is environmentally helpful," he wrote.
Accompanying the letter sent to scientists was a 12-page summary and review of research on "global warming," officials said.
"The proposed agreement would have very negative effects upon the technology of nations throughout the world, especially those that are currently attempting to lift from poverty and provide opportunities to the over 4 billion people in technologically underdeveloped countries," Seitz wrote.
Robinson said the project targets scientists because, "It is especially important for America to hear from its citizens who have the training necessary to evaluate the relevant data and offer sound advice."
He said the "global warming agreement," written in Kyoto, Japan, in 1997, and other plans "would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind."
"Yet," he said, "the United Nations and other vocal political interests say the U.S. must enact new laws that will sharply reduce domestic energy production and raise energy prices even higher.
"The inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness include the right of access to life-giving and life-enhancing technology. This is especially true of access to the most basic of all technologies: energy. These human rights have been extensively and wrongly abridged," he continued. "During the past two generations in the U.S., a system of high taxation, extensive regulation, and ubiquitous litigation has arisen that prevents the accumulation of sufficient capital and the exercise of sufficient freedom to build and preserve needed modern technology.
"These unfavorable political trends have severely damaged our energy production, where lack of industrial progress has left our country dependent upon foreign sources for 30 percent of the energy required to maintain our current level of prosperity," he said. "Moreover, the transfer of other U.S. industries abroad as a result of these same trends has left U.S. citizens with too few goods and services to trade for the energy that they do not produce. A huge and unsustainable trade deficit and rapidly rising energy prices have been the result.
"The necessary hydrocarbon and nuclear energy production technologies have been available to U.S. engineers for many decades. We can develop these resources without harm to people or the environment. There is absolutely no technical, resource, or environmental reason for the U.S. to be a net importer of energy. The U.S. should, in fact, be a net exporter of energy," he said.
He told WND he believes the issue has nothing to do with energy itself, but everything to do with power, control and money, which the United Nations is seeking. He accused the U.N. of violating human rights in its campaign to ban much energy research, exploration and development.
"In order to alleviate the current energy emergency and prevent future emergencies, we need to remove the governmental restrictions that have caused this problem. Fundamental human rights require that U.S. citizens and their industries be free to produce and use the low cost, abundant energy that they need. As the 31,000 signatories of this petition emphasize, environmental science supports this freedom," he said.
The Petition Project website today said there are 31,072 scientists who have signed up, and Robinson said more names continue to come in.
In terms of Ph.D. scientists alone, it already has 15 times more scientists than are seriously involved in the U.N.'s campaign to "vilify hydrocarbons," officials told WND.
"The very large number of petition signers demonstrates that, if there is a consensus among American scientists, it is in opposition to the human-caused global warming hypothesis rather than in favor of it," the organization noted.
The project was set up by a team of physicists and physical chemists who do research at several American institutions and collects signatures when donations provide the resources to mail out more letters.
"In a group of more than 30,000 people, there are many individuals with names similar or identical to other signatories, or to non-signatories – real or fictional. Opponents of the petition project sometimes use this statistical fact in efforts to discredit the project. For examples, Perry Mason and Michael Fox are scientists who have signed the petition – who happen also to have names identical to fictional or real non-scientists," the website said.
The petition is needed, supporters said, simply because Gore and others "have claimed that the 'science is settled' – that an overwhelming 'consensus' of scientists agrees with the hypothesis of human-caused global warming, with only a handful of skeptical scientists in disagreement."
The list of scientists includes 9,021 Ph.D.s, 6,961 at the master's level, 2,240 medical doctors and 12,850 carrying a bachelor of science or equivalent academic degree.
The Petition Project's website includes both a list of scientists by name as well as a list of scientists by state.
Marantha!
Have you read Marv's book Mac? I may have asked you this before but I can't remember your answer. (I don't remember you ever saying Mt. 24 was a reference to the regathering of Israel in her land either. The one I see as a very clear reference is Ez. 34:11-13.) What was your first impression of Marv's book? His book was the first one I read. It began lining up all the scriptures for me. I read it again, and then the Sign. Prewrath shouts truth at me now. Not to worry fellow cave dwellers. I'm not going to pile it on now but I will add one more comment. It does solve the dilemma of children being left without parents.
jib and others;
On the question of children being in the rapture, here is a view from Jack Kelley with scripture reference.
Age Of Accountability
Ask a Bible Teacher
Q. Some popular prophecy scholars teach that children will be included in the rapture regardless of whether they are believers or not. What scriptural basis is there for this? What is the age / event at which a child becomes old enough to be responsible for their own beliefs?
A. The scriptural basis is found in Matt. 18:10-11 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."
Paul alluded to this when he wrote "Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died." (Romans 7:9) He was saying that before the age of accountability he was not responsible for his sins, and had eternal life. But once he came of age he was responsible, and became subject to death.
In the Jewish culture the age of accountabililty was 12-13. There is no such clarity where the Church is concerned. I've assumed that means that it's different for everyone, and accountability comes when a child is old enough to understand the concepts of sin and salvation and make an informed decision to accept or reject the Lord's offer of pardon.
Maranatha!
Shalom, all! Internet access came back up last night, so now I can keep up with what everyone is saying.
Check out Yerushalayim Shel Zahav - Jerusalem Of Gold sung by Ofra Haza, a beautifully talented Israeli singer; died in 2000 from AIDS she contracted from her cheating husband. This version has a translation of the lyrics. And if you like her voice, try listening to Kashmir, which is her totally different and totally haunting cover of the Led Zeppelin song. If you're of an age when you remember the original ... I SAID, IF YOU CAN REMEMBER THE ORIGINAL LED ZEPPELIN SONG ... You can hear it on a tribute slide show video someone put together here. Just remember when you play it, to crank it up. Not because it will annoy your parents, but because if you can remember the original, you probably need to have the sound cranked up anyway. Drives my kids crazy. (hehehehe...)
<><
Mac, Shalom! Good article from American Thinker re: Marxism in our colleges, except he got one very important part wrong. The entire leftward shift didn't begin in 1968, but 1928. The professors teaching college in 1968 went to school in the late 20's and during the 1930's -- the time of the Great Depression, when socialism and communism was seen as viable, workable alternatives to the present capitalistic system that had brought such misery upon the people. There really were Americans who emmigrated to the Soviet Union, thinking that was to be the true Worker's Paradise. This Marxist influence on higher education remained and was just reinforced by the events of 1968.
<><
Jib, Shalom, and thanks for asking. I honestly don't know where people can send disaster relief supplies and/or donations. I would suggest contacting the Salvation Army or the Red Cross. Frankly, that just hasn't been at the top of many people's lists around here. Not because things haven't been bad, but because it's just not in our nature around here to think in terms like that! Everyone just chips in and does what they can (in some cases, not as much as they want -- I'm still popping aspirin from my short time spent sandbagging), and everyone shares what they can. I caught the last 10 minutes of Glen Beck last night (wish I had seen the whole thing) and he made a comparison between the attitudes and actions in Katrina and in the Flood of '08. Granted, many things can't be compared between the two -- Katrina was MUCH greater in scale (and don't forget about Rita almost immediately after), but what's seen as the biggest difference is the attitudes of the people involved.
In Katrina, the attitude was "What can the government do to help?", and the government took that question very seriously, to the point where they actively forbade people from helping. At one point, at the beginning of Katrina, when people realized it was going to be bad but no on knew how bad, Amtrak called the New Orleans' Mayor's office and offered to take people to safety. They were politely told thank you, but your help isn't needed. In Iowa, if you could do anything to help, more power to you. In Iowa, Amtrak would not have called the mayors' offices or the Iowa Dept. of Homeland Security and asked permission to help people. They would simply have informed the TV and radio stations of the offers to move people out. If you took them up on their offer, fine. If you didn't and you suffered, it's your own fault.
Part of the problems we're having here is that even if you had planned for a 500-year flood, it might not have done you any good. Many people in Cedar Rapids don't have flood insurance because they were told they didn't need it -- either they lived on the 500-year flood plain or they lived outside the expected flood areas. Those people are SOL -- homeowner's insurance doesn't cover flood damage. Mercy Medical Center in CR is over two miles away from the 500-year flood plain and still had to be evacuated due to flooding. I think it reached a foot deep there. The problem was the sheer force of the floodwater that pushed water past the flood plain (like a mini-storm surge) and also pushed water through the storm sewer systems. THAT sort of flooding was unexpected everywhere. The first place I went to do sandbagging, on the first day you could see the waters coming up through the storm sewers, but they had plastic and sandbags around them to keep the water from getting too high. The problem was that the people in charge were so focused on sticking to the plan that was developed after the 1993 flood, they couldn't adapt. When I came back the next day, I could see that those storm sewers were in trouble, but there was no way to divert attention from the river to the sewers until it was too late: the storm sewers blew and the street flooded.
So, like I say, contact the Salvation Army or the Red Cross if you want to donate aid. If there are any Mennonite churches in your area, they'd be a good source too. There are a lot of Mennonites in this area, and they ALWAYS are there when any kind of disaster strikes.
gt,
I think the rest of verse 9 gives us a clue as to what Paul meant when he said he was “alive apart from the law”. From Phil. 3:6 we know Paul considered himself to be blameless in regard to the law. As a zealous Pharisee he thought he was living a life pleasing to God. He certainly knew the law. But before he was saved did he understand its purpose? To reveal sin? He didn’t realize what its purpose was until after God removed the blinders from his eyes. “And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died…” Before he was saved he didn’t have a true understanding of the purpose of the Law. Paul thought he was spiritually alive before he had a true understanding of the Law, but when a true understanding of the Law’s purpose came after salvation, he began to see himself as he really was. He fell way short of the Law’s righteous standards. His sin became alive. He came to realize his true condition. He died in the sense of realizing his religious accomplishments were spiritual trash. (Phil. 3:7-8) What do you think?
overcomer;
I can't speak for Jack when he wrote that reply, he doesn't clarify his interpretation but, when Paul says “And I was once alive apart from the Law;" I think Jack takes this to mean that before Paul was old enough to understand the "law" he was innocent of any sin.
Paul does say he was alive "apart from the law". This does not sound like a time when he was following the law (before he became born again)if he was apart from it.
I always took this to mean that when the law came, Paul became aware of his sinfulness and realized he was dead in sin. The understanding of the law made him aware of his sin. Rom 7:13 "But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good,(the law) so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."
Paul also says; Rom 7:7 "Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”
Paul did not realize that he was a sinner and could not keep the law but he did know what sin was through his understanding of the law. Jesus opened Paul's eyes to his inability to keep the law as Jesus had spoken of in the "sermon on the mount".
Anyway this is how I think Jack Kelley sees this passage from Romans. I do agree with your view, it is just a little difficult to understand what Paul meant by "apart from the law".
Marantha
I think another way of putting it was Paul was saying at one time he lived without understanding the law. I'm doing some digging at the moment.
Moon Illusion
I don't know if this helps but:
Romans 7:9 in Greek
There was a Children on Romans 7:9 if you scroll down about children. There are a few more passages listed as well.
Jib, alooooog time ago on Joels site I offered a suggestion regarding children going to heaven, but i believe that it also applies to the rapture.
1 Corinthians 7:14 (NIV)
14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
I believe that children before the age of accountability (much younger than 12) are covered by their parents. If one of them is a Christian, then their child will also go in the rapture. If neither parent is a Christian, then the child will remain on earth. It is part of the responsibility that God has given parents over their children.
The scriptural evidence for this theory is minimal, but it seems to fit with God's dealings in history. For example, Korah and all that belonged to him were swallowed by the earth (num. 16) and Achan (Jud 7.24-25) Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. 25 Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today."
Then all Israel stoned him,
the Children suffer the same fate as their parents.
regarding my healing, I would love to testify. For those who do not know, I was living in Ukraine as a missionary, and over the years I felt my health degrading. During my last year there I knew that I had death within me. I had many small physical problems, but one of the biggest was all of the symptoms of a heart attack warning. I knew that if I spoke of it the the leadership, they would have insisted that I return immediately, but I did not want to leave before the right time. My only prayer was that I get my family back home, and then I would get to go home. A number of the people I ministered to were aware of how serious my condition was, and they cared for me with incredible care.
A year ago in May, I was at a pastor's conference with Ukrainian pastors. We heard of a local girl who was diagnosed with a brain tumor which was very expensive to operate on. The men decided that we would walk over to her place, and pray for her and her family. When we go there, I asked the Lord how I should pray, and God said that she was being healed, pray for her parents. So while the Ukrainian men prayed for her I was praying for her parents. During this time, I broke out into a deep sweat, but did not know why. (no one, including myself was praying for my healing at that time). Within a few days however I began seeing the symptoms fade away. Within a few weeks, I lost all of the heart attack symptoms, and I was able to lift my arms above my head without pain in my shoulders. Unfortunately, God also told me that getting in shape (other than round) was up to me.
since then I have had no re-occurance of any of those problems. I have not heard about the girl other than that she was better. Since then I have developed a few more sore limbs, but it is nothing like before.
I know that God used my weakness in ministry, as the people I was mentoring cared for me in my weakness, and so they did not feel like they were second class, to be saved and taught by the great white missionary.
PTL.
That was a good article on Rapture Ready re: Todd Bentley.
You know I've had my teeth sunk in his behind for quite some time.
But here is an article from Jacob Prasch that made my eyes water from laughter.
I've seen him speak in person and has a brilliant mind. A Messanic Jew. So due to my frustration w/ people following Bentley and not listening to all the warnings given I found this quote particularly funny:
"Todd Bentley also talks about seeing people raised from the dead and limbs reforming at his services in Lakeland Florida, well the truth is he couldn’t even get the sick/dead hairs on his own bald head to grow back if he prayed for a thousand years."
Don't you think there's some truth to that?
Jim, I think you're right regarding those dates. I recall C S Lewis writing criticisms about the current state of colleges (and society) in his time (pre 1968). His dystopian fictional book “That Hideous Strength” used those themes and trends he saw occurring around him. He probably identified it as fascism. I see fascism and communism as 2 sides of the same coin.
LW
wow that is great-good thing as you might not have made it home you know. you still might want to get a thorough physical however-sorry it's an occupational hazard :-)
regarding my foot-hairline fracture of one of the foot bones possibly up to the joint and a lot of soft tissue damage. wish I had an exotic story to go with. providentially my parents are visiting for 2 weeks and then hubby's mom is visiting for about a week. foot hurts too bad to drive so hubby will be chauffeur including those middle of the night calls but at least we don't have to drag our son out of bed. while no emergency calls for 3 weeks would be bad financially I'm sure hubby would appreciate it! I have to wear a special ugly shoe for 3-4 weeks and then repeat films at that time. of course it is not the same one I sprained so badly last year. figures.
thanks for the prayers for yesterday for travel-lots of weather delays and one plane coming into Phoenix blew a tire on landing and then electric went out. had to bus the folks on the plane to the terminal. glad it wasn't my plane or my folks plane
Hi everyone,
I've been meaning to post the info I found on children/mentally disabled going to Heaven for some time (in response to Donna some time ago) but it's one of the many things slipping to the back burner lately. In my research, I also encountered the question of children and the rapture which hadn't occurred to me before. I haven't come to any solid conclusions because, as Dr. F. noted, it's not something that's clearly delinated in Scripture. That's very frustrating for me and I want to keep digging/seeking the Lord on the subject. I want to base my understanding on truth, not what feels good or feels right and if truth means that children can go to Hell or children will be left in the rapture, then I'll work on accepting that and finding a place for that pain in my heart. As you may remember, this topic hits home for me as I have several little souls that I'm anxious about, not including the triplets.
So here's what I've found so far....there are some interesting takes on this question...
On the question of infants/mentally disabled going to Heaven without accepting Christ:
http://www.covenantnews.com/mohler050117.htm (yes – all infants are elect)
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/salvatio/infantsa.htm (yes - Genesis 18:25 God will do what is right)
http://www.epm.org/articles/infant.html (yes, though no absolute Biblical backing for it; relying of God’s wisdom and character revealed in Scripture)
http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm (no - Calvinistic approach; holds that babies are not elect as they have not been regenerated and that is only way to enter Heaven)
Also, the question of children in the Rapture….will they go? http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/questrap.htm (no, at least not children of unbelievers bc of the Scriptures that talks about ‘woe to pregnant and nursing women in those days’ and also the fact that God didn’t spare all children during other judgements such as the Flood and sacking of Jerusalem; criticizes Left Behind series for portraying pregnant women as suddenly un-pregnant, etc.)
Some of the Scriptures used to defend the view that God can and has made exceptions include:
Paul in Romans quotes Exodus 33:19 “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
David's grief over his infant son dying...he says that he cannot come to me but I will go to him.
Ps. 22 9-10 (Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother’s breast. From my birth I was cast upon you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.)
Also, John the Baptist’s infilling of Holy Spirit in the womb
And of course the many instances when Jesus refers to children ("Don't hinder them coming to me", "Such is the kingdom of God", etc.)
If I had to state my belief today, based on what I've read so far and prayed about, I would say I lean toward LW's post about believers 'covering' their children until they can make their own decision (ie. children are an inheritance from the Lord) but I lean toward the possibility of the Lord taking all little ones/simple ones with Him because there is so much about His character that's based on love of the utmost degree. We as sinful depraved creatures still go to extraordinary lengths to defend and shelter our children, even before we've been saved. How much more love and care must our Heavenly Father have for His creation and especially those who are so vulnerable. I don't diminish the fact of original sin in saying that. Not one, even the child who dies the moment after conception, is sinless. Every single person ever conceived needs the Lord. I'm just not convinced at this point that He hasn't worked those details out in a way that still meets that ultimate salvific requirement.
Hope this is helpful...
Blessings,
Jen
Jen,
Take a look at THIS article re:Calvinism.
I had just read it yesterday.
Lisa
jen;
Thanks for the posting on children going to heaven. The one scripture you sited is one that came to my mind first:
Gen 18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
I also agree with the view that Jesus had about children:
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Here is another one from gracethrufaith on this same topic:
Are Children Accountable?
Ask a Bible Teacher
Q. just read your statement on Children and the Rapture and you used Rom 7:9 as why children will be taken. Are you saying children are sinless till they reach the age of accountably? So they are not sinners when they are born? Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
A. Children are not sinless. Their sins are not held against them until they reach the age of accountability. This is thought to be the time when they are mentally competent to understand the concept of sin and its consequences. Once they reach that age they are accountable and this is what Paul was telling us in Romans 7:9.
I believe it's also what Jesus meant when He said that we have to become like little children to enter the Kingdom. (Matt. 18:3) Becoming like little children means we're no longer held accountable for our sins, and the way that happens is to accept the Lord's death as payment in full for the sins of our lives.
In Ephesians 2 Paul was speaking to everyone accountable for his or her sins.
Maranatha!
Be Thou My Vision
Here is a nice calm soothing song.I'm sure some of you sing it.I would welcome this in my Church as I'm often getting my ears blasted out.
Lisa,
Good link that you directed Jen to. I stumbled across that web site a month or so ago as well. I think all 3 of these lay out the Scriptures very well.
Calvinism's Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace
Calvinism's Unconditional Election
Perseverance of the Saints
Overcomer,
You've got to check these out. I know you love studying God's word. You asked Mac if he's read Marv's Pre-Wrath book? As you know, I was convinced by Marv's book as well and think it is well worth reading. Have you read Robert Shank's book "Life in the Son" yet? I think we are heading into some trying times. If folk's are wrong about OSAS (and I believe the Bible does NOT teach this doctrine), it is very dangerous. The enemy would have us believe that we need not really be too concerned about perservering because if we are truly His, we can't fall away. I honestly don't believe that is what Scripture teaches but I can't explain it quite as well as is done in the links above. I think it is more important to have a proper understanding of what the Bible teaches about the great apostacy in the end times than when the rapture occurs and the Day of the Lord is (though I think understanding the times is good or God wouldn't have told us what to watch for).
Having said that Kathy, I so appreciate almost everything you write. I look up to you as a more mature disciple of Christ. I just think you've misunderstood what the Lord says in His Word about the possibility of those who know Him falling away. It's worth asking God to open your eyes if you're wrong. I pray He does the same for me. Of course it's about Him, not us anyway.
Jim G.
This one's for Jim C. as well as all of his friends and foes;-)
A few months ago, I caught part of a broadcast in which an Evangelical pastor and a Catholic priest sat down and discussed what Catholics and Protestants have in common. It was EXCELLENT! It was so good that I purchased the DVD. It came in the mail yesterday and I watched it again tonight. It is a total blessing. Both of the men in this DVD clearly love the Lord dearly.
I am not nor have I ever been Catholic. In fact, my grandfather emigrated to America as a young boy from Sicily. He was Catholic. When he was a young man though, a Pentecostal minister led him to a personal relationship with Christ. Because he didn't experience that in the Catholic Church, he was well convinced that Catholics simply don't know the Lord.
Anyway, I grew up mostly in Pentecostal/Charismatic/Evangelical types of churches. Through the years, I have come to realize that I have some wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ who are Catholic! When I was in graduate school, I attended a very conservative independent Bible Church (the pastor was trained at Dallas Theological Seminary). We sung traditional hymns from hymnbooks. I do love the old hymns but I missed the freedom to raise my hands to the Lord during worship without standing out in the crowd. I currently attend a wonderful Foursquare Church.
I HIGHLY recommend this video whether you are Catholic or Protestant. You will be blessed.
Common Ground: What Protestants and Catholics Can Learn from Each Other
Jim G.
Along the same lines...This is good too!
Evangelicals & Catholics Together:
The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium
Jim G.
Jim,
Such kind words. My understanding of salvation is really quite simple. God chooses us without our help and saves us without our help and keeps us without our help. Faith is a gift from God.
1 Peter 2:9: “But you are a CHOSEN RACE, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION…”
Romans 8:29: “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son…”
Eph. 2:8,9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”
John 10:29: “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”
Romans. 8:33: “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies…Christ Jesus…who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?”
Phil. 1:6: “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in your will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.”
I believe scripture does teach once saved, always saved. Since we are dead in our sins and deadness can’t respond, God does the entire work in salvation. I see our choice coming into play after salvation. We are to apply all diligence, in our faith supplying moral excellence, etc. We are to consider ourselves dead to sin. We are not to go on presenting the members of our bodies to sin as instruments of unrighteousness. We are to present our bodies a living sacrifice. We are to pursue love and walk in love. We are to lay aside the old self and put on the new self. We are to let the word of Christ dwell in us richly. We are to study and rightly divide the word of truth. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and each believer’s work will become evident, whether he did it in vain or for the Lord. Some will be rewarded greater than others. (1 Cor. 3:13)
You know I believe the church will not be raptured prior to the great tribulation. Jesus said that at that time many will fall away. Paul asked the Romans “who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” The first thing in the list following that question is tribulation, then distress, then persecution, famine, nakedness, peril…Paul goes on to say that nothing is able to separate us from the love of God. During the great tribulation for sure we will learn who are truly His. In the parable of the soils Jesus teaches that the one on whom seed was sown in the rocky places, this man hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. But he has no firm root, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
I understand the Word to teach that someone who walks away or falls away from the faith was never chosen, saved, and given the gift of faith in the first place. The one who endures to the end of the great tribulation, he was chosen, saved, and given the gift of faith, and will be delivered.
The theme verse of Overcomer is Revelation 12:11: “And they overcame him (the devil who will empower the beast) because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death.”
Those who end up being killed by Antichrist will be the chosen, saved, and gifted with faith...because no one will be able to snatch them from the Father's hand, not even death...and that was in Paul's list in Romans 8 also.
Bless you Jim.
Kathy, sorry I took a long time to respond to your question. I haven’t read everything in Rosenthal’s book yet but have covered a large part of the actual nut and bolts. In a nutshell, I sensed it was written emotionally and I can understand that given his experiences with his former colleagues resulting from his association with Van Kampen. But I felt there were areas where he should have been more clinical and pragmatic. I am obviously comparing what he’s saying with other viewpoints, especially pre-trib and post-trib - Renald Showers, Paul Benware, Gerald Stanton and Ed Tarkowski. At this point I don’t find his book compelling enough for me to change my opinion about pre-wrath and I’m already familiar with most of the arguments that have been presented so far.
The Mistakes That Launched 3,000 Rockets
MMMMmmmm. On the whole Calvinism thing, I am still not convinced with it.
Am I the only one?
In His Love and looking up!
Debbie
"MMMMmmmm. On the whole Calvinism thing, I am still not convinced with it.
Am I the only one?"
Nope, you're not!
We have had another young person from our community die a couple of days ago. He was just about to become a father in a month.
The services of all 3 young people who passed away in the last couple of months have all led by a born again believer.
Please pray for the families involved and for our community.
Thank you.
<><
Joel has a new post up that I am going to check out right now about Afganistan.
Nate,
Not only that, but she's also meeting with Hizbullah despite the US policy against talks with the group.....?????
I didn't read the article, but just the title made me shake my head.
I noticed the flooding is moving toward Ill. now and leevees are breaking along the Mississippi River area. Didn't Jim paint a scenario about an earthquake along the River dividing the country? Sounds similar to what's happening with the floods, plus the grain crops will be decimated by this.
Blessings,
Jen
Debbie,
I guess I would be considered a non-Calvinist.
When I look at all the scripture and not just part of it I have come to the understanding that your name can be blotted out of the book of life.
If it were already decided and set in stone then the name would have never be written in there to begin with. There would be no need to erase it.
That's just one of several points that strike me as being of logical thought on the matter.
The gift of salvation is available to ALL who by faith believe, repent, remain steadfast and follow our Lord Jesus Christ.
And the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit helps us to do that. But we have free wills and if we choose to ignore the Holy Spirit and/or become deceived by false teachers then we can loose salvation.
We are warned about this in scripture again and again. If we fall by the wayside we have no excuse.
Especially in the times in which we live now. We have arrows and poison darts flying at us from every possible direction. Some obvious and some extremely subtle.
Those who "persevere to the end will be saved."
It doesn't get clearer than that.
Kathy,
I think the "gifted with faith" statement is what's really getting me.
As some people are predestined to receive this "gift of faith" and some are not. We know God is fair and just and that simply does not reflect that.
We have some responsibility in this relationship. It's a two way deal as in any normal relationship.
If we take the step out on faith (which is our part)which the Holy Spirit draws us (not forces us)to do then He gives us the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.(which through His mercy and grace is His part)
That is how the two coming together are joined as one in the body of Christ.
But we have the free will to reject Him at any time. If there was no possibility of that-then Satan would not have attempted to tempt Jesus into rebelling against the Father as he himself had. He is our perfect example of being faithful even unto death.
Do you think God predestined Satan to rebel against Him? Could God have not let him slip away? If that's the way He operates then we have just cause to be rather upset about being born into a sinful state.
Why was there a choice in the Garden of Eden? Why place a rotten tree in the middle of the Garden?
We are all being tested to see who will follow Him even unto death.It takes continual effort to overcome what is thrown our way.
Granted we have more questions that we have answers to. But again we have faith that God is perfect and just in all His ways. Someday our hazy vision will be sharpened to 2020. (or better)
I don't expect to convince you otherwise-as we agree to disagee on a few scriptural issues.
Lisa, Shalom! You wrote:
But we have free wills and if we choose to ignore the Holy Spirit and/or become deceived by false teachers then we can loose salvation.
I prefer to think not of "loosing" salvation, but rejecting it. One can argue that "if you reject salvation, you were never really saved in the first place." I would submit that this reasoning only applies when you're dead. I believe most people here would agree that the damned in hell can never be redeemed because the torments of hell are so great the damned cannot make a free choice to love G_D. Turning our view the other way (towards heaven), we have souls and angelic beings enjoying the presence of G_D, what is called "the Beatific Vision." These souls know eternal happiness. Yet, we know that even in this state of being, rebellion can and did occur.
So if the angels in heaven who directly experienced the love and blessings of G_D could still choose to reject G_D and so loose their place in heaven, how can we, mere flesh and blood, hope to permanently seal our place next to G_D's Throne?
<><
Hi All:
Lisa,
I take Eph. 1:4,5 at face value. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. He predestined us to adoption as sons. Verses 13,14: In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance. Paul says faith is a gift in the next chapter. I was dead in my sin, blinded by the god of this world. The Lord saw to it that I was in a Good News Club 40 years ago to hear the gospel. In God's miraculous and wonderful way He removed the blinders and gave me the gift of faith upon hearing the Word. Now all I want is Him more and more and more. To be sure there are battles I fight because I am still in unredeemed flesh. But I just thank Him and praise Him for choosing me, saving me, and that He'll keep me.
A friend mentioned something about drawing means dragging. I'm going to have to look into that.
Mac,
If you want a more clinical and pragmatic approach to prewrath, give The Sign a try.
My dandelions are back so I'm going outside to mow them down.
A blessed day All!
Well as for the issue of losing salvation, I don't think that can happen.
Once you are born of something, you are always apart of that something.
For instance, I was born of my parents and I can't change who my parents are. I believe that is why Jesus used the phrase "born" when he is talking to Nicodemas. So if we are born of the Spirit, then we are always part of that.
Being baptized means to be immersed. When you are immersed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit-ie baptized by the Holy Spirit-then you become one with the body of Christ. You not change that. Kinda like a bloodline. Our parents blood run thru our veins and His blood covers us. We can't change either one. And neither can the Lord for that matter!
Jesus PROMISED us that NOTHING could separate us and I am standing on His promises!
(Breaking out into song!!!)
Okay. I will sit back down now. I am a simple person and try to understand things simply.
In His Love and Looking up!
Debbie
Came in for a drink of water.
I'm with you Debbie.
Jim C, you said "how can we, mere flesh and blood, hope to permanently seal our place next to G_D's Throne?"
We can never hope to seal our place. But God can permanently seal it!
I was thinking as I was mowing, with the price of food going up, I may just want to leave a few of those dandelions for my salad!
I haven't stopped in here for a while. It's nice to see that the cave is alive and well.
Also great to see LW. Glad to see you are alive and well brother!!
I wanted to say hi to Nate and all my other friends here too.
Dave
I found another good U TUBE CLIP on Todd Bentley.
It also lists a couple of testimonies from people who were touched by his annointing.
thanks lisa;
OK one more article on Todd Bentley
http://www.christianworld
viewnetwork.com/article.php
/3639/By_Marsha_West
Please pray for him and anyone involved in this. I couldn't even watch all the referenced videos in this article, they were too disturbing!
Marantha!
dave;
Good to see you back for a visit!
Stay awhile and have some refreshments. LOL
Good to "see" you also LW.
Marantha!
I thought this was really interesting. Aparently-Bentley is an ardent admirer of "William Branham."
Who is an old time pentecostal revival "healer". He's dead-athough his followers kept him around for awhile at the time thinking he would rise.
Read what this man thought about UFO's:
"Branham's ministry consisted primarily of a religious philosophy that he made up as he went along - Both astrology and the Great Pyramid (for whatever reason) were also the divine word of God (though the KJV Bible had supplanted them), the Bible is the infallible word of God but is subject to amendment by the angels with whom he regularly conversed, he might be "the seventh angel of the Lord", Cain was the result of Eve having sex with "a devil-possessed serpent" and thus women shouldn't get the vote, etc. Branham was also an ardent believer in UFOs, though it is unclear whether he thought them to be the result of aliens or demons. In any event, he preached that they had something to do with the Rapture and whatnot."
Isn't that something? It's exactly what those channelers were speaking about when the "Aliens" were speaking through them.
They said that they would remove any of the people on earth who didn't have the proper vibrational frequency and re-educate them.
All of these manifestations are coming from the same source. (He also really hated women,doesn't believe in hell, nor the Trinity)
(And Bentley has that Alien Gray tatoo under his watch!-this is some weird stuff!)
This dead guy still has a website to convert people. He also predicted the fall of America and her getting nuked. That's suppose to happen next. His website says "BELIEVE" because there was an apparition over his head at a conference and several people took a picture of it.(Another time there was some sort of cloud formation.)
Another one of Todd's buddies is "Che Ahn." He's next on my list.
Hi Dave,
It is nice to hear from you.
There is some really interesting discussion of Reformed Theology, Calvinism, etc. I am afraid I have only be able to read a small number of the posts. My wife and I got the keys to our new house today and it is also my wife's birthday (she is 29b today as she calls it :-) ) Needless to say, I have been too busy to read most of the posts.
However, that won't keep me from throwing in my two cents worth.
I consider myself a 5 point Calvinist. I didn't even understand what that meant until I read "What is Reformed Theology" by R. C. Sproul. After reading this book, no other point of view makes sense to me anymore.
The Bible says that God chose us long before he created the earth. That indicates that He chose who He was going to save and who He was not. He chose us before we chose Him.
God knows exactly how much prompting of the Holy Spirit it is going to take for any given person (we are all different) to accept the free gift of salvation which He offers through His Son. It takes different amounts of prompting depending on the person. We have absolutely zero ability to save ourselves. Unless the Holy Spirit irresistibly prompted us first to accept the free gift of salvation, our sin natures would make it totally impossible for us to accept this gift. If this is the case, God has obviously pre-chosen who would be saved and who wouldn't be saved.
For the people who are not going to accept salvation, God could allow the Holy Spirit to prompt them more so that they would find accepting salvation irresistible, but He does not. He has chosen who He is going to save.
Believing that it is the people who have chosen to accept salvation that God is going to save implies that our salvation depends on some type of good work on our part that saves us. It implies that we in some way saved ourselves. It implies that we chose God and that saved us instead of the other way around. Accepting Jesus as our savior is required for salvation, but the only reason that the "elect" choose Christ as Savior is because the Holy Spirit prompted them enough to accept salvation.
Again, God knows exactly how much prompting it is going to take for a given person to accept salvation, so He has obviously already pre-chosen who to save and who not to.
This is a hard concept for us to get our heads around. It screams of unfairness that God chose to save some of us and not others. However, the fact is that none of us deserve to be saved. We all deserve to go to Hell, so the fact that God does not chose to save everybody does not indicate a cruelness on His part. It indicates that He has chosen to show mercy to some of us. Why He has chosen to save some of us and not others we will never know this side of heaven.
Again, I think the most important point is that saying we chose God and not He chose us is saying that we did something to save ourselves and I don't believe that is Scriptural.
Sometimes it makes me think if this was true, I am wasting my time witnessing to certain people because God has not chosen to save them. However, we have no knowledge of who these "elect" are. God has commanded us to preach the Gospel to everyone. Not only do we not have the ability within us to save ourselves, we also do not have the ability to save anyone else. It is all up to God to open their hearts. We just have to be obedient and preach the Word. Only God knows who He has chosen for salvation.
Like most people here, I get a sense sometimes of who is likely to be saved and who isn't when I am talking to them. A lot of people I know it is going to take a full blown miracle to save, while others I can tell that they are searching.
God Bless,
Harold
First...Harold congratulations on the purchase of your new home! How wonderful!!!
I had to write in to agree with Deb's 10:27 post.
I have full confidence that we can be totally 100% sure of our salvation...based on what the Bible says and based on what He has already accomplished on the cross.
The only thing we can do is to accept what He has already done.
I believe that this is what the true gospel is all about.
I definitely lean towards His choosing us and leading us to Him.
The Bible teaches about the elect, about His choosing us before the foundation of the world, how he loved Jacob but hated Esau, etc.
I can't say that I am a 5 pt Calvinist...I just don't think things are that clear...but I do lean in that direction.
Please pray for the people in our community. Many people were affected by the young man who just passed away and who was to become a father next month.
Please pray that He will use this terrible tragedy to bring people to Him.
Thank you.
I just checked my Strong's concordance and the word "draw" from John 6:44: "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." (Hmm, I wonder what that reference to the last day is? I would say at the end of the age...but I digress).
The Greek word is helko: to drag
Wow...
Paul says in Romans 3:11: "There is none who seeks for God..."
I guess that is why He must "drag" us? That and the fact that we are dead in our sin.
Wayne (LW) Awesome testimony, thanks for sharing! Glad to "see" you back.
Daveschatology! Glad to "see" you too - I just mentioned you the other day to someone here & wondered what happened to you.
Harold - Congrats on the house. How exciting!!! Wish your wife a Happy Birthday from us Cave Dwellers.
JIB - How's the foot? Still a lot of pain?
Grany - Where ya be, woman?
I find the predestination/salvation talk quite interesting. My thoughts/opinions are not set in stone, at this point, but I tend to lean towards agreement with Lisa. It makes the most sense to me thus far.
Jewish Leaders in US failing Jews in Israel and at home
yup-standing on it for several straight hours-about 11 didn't help and I get to start all over again tomorrow.
what is with some of the people in Canada-has global warming fried their brains??? (no offense to those of you here in the cave from Canada intended)
Court overturns grounding
Investigation of abuse due to suggestion of psychic!
Hi all,
The whole doctrine of election and predestination is indeed hard to understand. I truly have a hard time thinking that God created all mankind only to send certain ones to hell and others to heaven. What if I have been living all this time thinking I am a Christian and going to heaven and He didn't choose me for that, but chose me for hell....shudder!
There so many scripture that plead with us to accept Christ as our Savior. Why are we to ask if it is already God's will? And so forth and so on.
Okay so I go with the fact that He knew who would accept Him and there for predestined them to Heaven. Then I ask myself, if He knew who would, then why create those who wouldn't only to destroy them?!
Then I remember HE is God! He is the Creator! And I just thank Him.
Still, it is hard to understand and so I just simply trust Him. I don't want to agree with the 5 points (seems cruel) yet God is GOD.
I seem to find too many places where it seems the Word gives us the option (like Adam and Eve and the angels had).
So until I can "wrap my mind around it", I am just going to trust the Lord.
In HIs Love and looking up!
Debbie
Kathy, I do have Van Kampen's "The Sign" earmarked to buy and read at some later stage. But it won't be for a while as I'm up to my arm pits in books and trying to do Rosenthal’s book justice. I had hoped his book would have had more details about Revelation but, understandably, his focus is mainly on the rapture. He actually provides a fair bit of interesting peripheral material aside from the rapture.
But I wanted to ask you a quick question that I haven’t found the answer to yet: Pre-wrath teaches just one coming of Christ about ¾ through the 70th week and that He remains here but has several appearances before the end of the week. Is the church with Him all through this time? This is perhaps addressed in The Sign?
A quick prayer request from an Omega Letter member. Please pray for them. This is a tragedy:
As many of you don’t know me I am sorry. I am sorry for not posting to the members section of the OL more than I have. I have been a member for a few years and the joy God has brought me through this fellowship and Jack’s letters has been wonderful. I am in the US Coast Guard and I was recently on a south pacific patrol for 2 months. I got back a couple of weeks ago to spend some much needed time with my family. I found out last Saturday from my wife that when I was gone she was raped by someone we thought we could trust. She is now pregnant as a result of that evil act. Being Christians we feel abortion and adoption is not the answer. Please pray for us, we don’t know what to do. My wife and I have already started talking to members of our church and have received a lot of support. I don’t know how I will become a father to this baby but I know I need to. My wife and I have four kids already. We are taking it day by day and need all the prayer we can get. PLEASE HELP!
Congratulations, Harold.
Good to hear from you, Dave.
I'm still in catch up mode re the posts and haven't really contributed to the "Calvinist" thing. I'll have to dust off Dave Hunt's book. Dave has debated James White who is a 5 point Calvinist, and he has also written a book called "What Love is This?" which challenges some of the Calvinist teachings - especially Limited Atonement – and I think he does it successfully. I just wish I was a heck of a lot faster at reading and understanding what I read!
The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?
A Defense of Unlimited Atonement
The Cross-Work of Christ
Is It Limited or Unlimited?
Reformed Theology
Mac,
I just looked in my copy of The Sign. I found this on page 315-316, under “The Coming (Parousia) of Christ”. “When referring to the second coming of Christ, invariably the Greek word parousia is used. This particular word does not indicate movement from one place to the next, but, as a noun, speaks more to the overall event of Christ’s second coming. It carries the meaning of “presence”. Therefore, within the scope of the second coming (parousia) of Christ as an event, there will be various coming and goings of Christ, but in those cases a different Greek word is used. However, when the phrase, “the parousia (coming) of Christ” is used, it always refers to the event in general, no different from the first coming (parousia) of Christ. There will only be one “second coming” or parousia of Christ, not two. Keeping that simple fact in mind will bring harmony to the teaching of the NT concerning the timing of Christ’s parousia, making the Olivet Discourse instruction to the church concerning Christ’s coming, rather than instruction to unsaved Israel concerning the Battle of Armageddon.
I am in 100% agreement here of the statement by Mr. Van Kampen.
He wrote much more on this but I won’t post it.
On page 374 there is a section subtitled CHRIST’S PHYSICAL RETURN TO EARTH. The first paragraph reads: “The thirty-day Reclamation Period will commence, therefore, when Christ once again literally returns to earth in physical form, descending to earth from the heavenly Zion for the face-to-face salvation of Israel. Pg. 380: THE ITINERARY OF CHRIST’S EARTHLY JOURNEY- Days One and Two: From Edom to Jerusalem Is. 63:1-3: “Who is this who comes from Edom, with garments of glowing colors from Bozrah (a capital of Edom)…” Here Christ is pictured coming from Edom in garments sprinkled with blood…His wrath has already begun. He will be clothed in those same blood-stained garments when He returns to earth with His armies at Armageddon. Day Three: The Mystery is Complete Hos. 6:1,2 This is referring to God’s plan for the spiritual salvation of Israel. Day Four: The Two-Witness Resurrection Day Five: The Seventh Trumpet Day Five or Six: Remnant to Azel Last: Christ’s Return to Heaven after He splits the Mt. of Olives providing the believing Jews a way of escape to Azel. He then returns later at Armageddon. There is a chart on pg. 395 depicting these first six days after D’s 70th Week with scripture references.
Now as to where the church is…I looked to see if Mr. Van Kampen referenced it but I couldn’t find it. Just after the rapture (prewrath-at the end of the “cut short” great tribulation) Christ begins pouring out His wrath once the 144,000 are sealed. He doesn’t actually come down to earth at this time. His second coming, when He cuts short the great tribulation, this is His initial presence in the clouds when we are gathered. While He is pouring out His wrath I believe He is seated in the clouds and we are with Him, perhaps even watching…now wouldn’t that be something?! I seem to remember a verse that refers to His seat in the clouds but I couldn’t find it in my Strong’s concordance. When He actually physically returns to earth I believe the church will remain in heaven. I will ask Kristen if her dad wrote on this but she is on vacation right now so it will be a couple of weeks.
Hope this helps, or at least peaks your interest even more to purchase and read the book.
For those interested I found a sermon in written form on election by John MacArthur. Click here.
My apologies for the length of this post.
Just remembered that seat in the clouds reference...Rev. 14:14
Thanks for that input, Kathy.
Here is a good article from the Koinonia House newsletter.
Some info on America being bought up by foreign investors. (I was just reading about that a couple days ago.)
Also an article Jim C. might know about. The "Mystery Woman" in the Second Epistle of John.
Glad to see so many people checking back in! (I was praying about that)
Lisa
"We have absolutely zero ability to save ourselves. Unless the Holy Spirit irresistibly prompted us first to accept the free gift of salvation, our sin natures would make it totally impossible for us to accept this gift."
I agree with that statement but not that it means we were pre-chosen.
"God could allow the Holy Spirit to prompt them more so that they would find accepting salvation irresistible, but He does not."
Correct-otherwise we would not have "free choice" and would be manipulated.
"Believing that it is the people who have chosen to accept salvation that God is going to save implies that our salvation depends on some type of good work on our part that saves us. It implies that we in some way saved ourselves. It implies that we chose God and that saved us instead of the other way around."
Harold, I don't believe any of that nor do I think it implies it. It does mean that we have to run the race with endurance and remain in love and obedient to the One who through His great love and compassion for us has showered His grace upon us so that we might be saved.
I know that if I remain steadfast in Him I will be saved. He also knows whether or not I'll do that.
Believe me, I rather think that I've been chosen and there is no chance that I may stray and loose the gift of salvation. That really appeals to my mind. But in conjunction with the other scripture I read-I just don't find that to be the case. So I just accept what I find truthful whether I like it or not.
There is a split opinion about this but just wanted to clear up what someone on the opposing viewpoint thinks or doesn't think is implied.
Hi Lisa,
Doesn't logic tell us that if we can lose our salvation that means we've done something to undeserve God's favor. The flip side of that would be then that we needed to do something to earn God's favor to gain salvation. We know that is not scriptural based on Eph. 2:8,9. Paul explicitly says that "He (God) who began a good work in you(God initiates our salvation) will (not might in case we do something bad) perfect it until the day of Christ." God initiates and secures our salvation. He is a great big, wonderful, powerful God.
Jesus said in John 10:28: "And I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish."
When do you think our eternal life begins? At the moment we believe, at the moment we are given the gift of faith. (Remember, He had to drag us because we are dead in our sin and we didn't seek Him.) John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
Eternal life is in the present tense. We have it at the moment we believe.
John 6:47 “I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.”
The rest of that John 10:28 verse:
"...and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
Joel has a new post re Gaza truce.
Mac, what a terrible situation for the family who requested prayer at Omega Letter. I will be praying for them.
If you let this man know we are praying, please also tell him this: I am very, very close to a family where one of the brothers is a result of rape. Though I knew the family all my life, I never knew this until I was well into adulthood. He was completely accepted into the family and there was no distinction whatsoever. It can be done.
This article by Jack Kelley is worth checking out.
He's written out his thoughts on several current issues we've been discussing lately, including the once saved always saved teachings.
Lisa, Shalom! I was a bit surprised to at reading your message of 5:27 AM. I honestly didn't know what you were talking about. After reading both the newsletter and 2nd John, I can understand where you're coming from.
"Eklekte kuria" can be translated as "The chosen Lady" or as "Kyria (a woman's name) chosen (by God)". The RCC's view is that the letter is not addressed to the Church at large, but to an individual church (kyria or kuria, Lady) and its community of believers (eklecte, the Chosen [also used in 1 Peter 1:1 and Titus 1:1] who are her children.) This emphasizes the familial aspect of the Christian community, being brothers and sisters in Christ. The author is addressing this one letter to a specific community, rather than to the Church at large, which is why the author uses "children of the (i.e., THIS PARTICULAR) church," rather than "Children of G_D" as used elsewhere. V.13 extends this imagery by saying, "The children of your chosen sister send you greetings," meaning, "The community of which the Presbyter is now a part greets you (singular), the community of the Lady addressed."
While the idea that "Eklekte kuria" refers to the Holy Mother is intriguing, there is a problem in that the traditional place and date of composition of both 2nd John and 3rd John is Ephesus at the end of the first century. Tradition also holds that the Holy Mother lived (and died) at Ephesus at this time. If both these traditions are true, then why would John write a letter to the community where he was living, addressed to someone just down the street? The author's idea would have more credence if there were more evidence that either 2nd John was composed somewhere other than Ephesus, or that Mary did not live in Ephesus at the time the letter was written. There is a growing body of archaeological evidence (all circumstantial) that indicates that Mary did live in Ephesus at this time. So while the author's idea is interesting, he would have to come up with a lot more archaeological evidence to support it.
As a point of interest, this letter appears to have been written to combat the growing gnostic heresy. Some gnostic groups held the doctrine of the Christ come in the flesh to be a first step in belief, which the more advanced (i.e., "progressive") and spiritual believer surpassed and abandoned in his knowledge of the spiritual Christ.
<><
Katherine Hall, Shalom! You wrote at 9:16 AM:
Doesn't logic tell us that if we can lose our salvation that means we've done something to undeserve God's favor. The flip side of that would be then that we needed to do something to earn God's favor to gain salvation.
Yes, we need to do something! We need to live lives that show we have been changed by Christ! In the parable of the sower (Matt. 13:1-23) both the seed that fell among the rocky soil and among the thorns are people who received the Word with joy, yet both fell away. In both of these cases, you can make the case that the person "accepted Christ" (received the Word), yet in both these cases, they are not among the saved.
It may be that, "My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand," and that "no one can take them out of the Father's hand," but if you haven't been around sheep, let me tell you: sheep are dumb. They may know their Master's voice, but I would not put it past them to jump out of the hand that was holding them.
I believe in free will as a gift from G_D, one that He expects me to use wisely and use it to follow Him. IF I choose to do so, if I choose to follow Christ through my life, then at the moment of death I will gladly choose follow Him home. However, every time I sin, I am rejecting Christ. Though I may have accepted Christ and have been growing in His Word, with every sin I choose to commit I become more and more like the seed among the rocks or the seed in the thorns. With every sin I choose to follow me and to reject Christ. If this choosing becomes a fixture in my life, who do you think I will choose at the moment of death?
So I continue to "work out [my] salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12), believing in G_D's justice and trusting in His mercy.
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Jim,
I was just leaving to run my errands. When I return I will reply, ok? It may not be until this evening but Lord-willing I will get back to you.
Jim C.
Thanks for the info. The intrepertation you gave sounds more plausible to me that the one given.
I have not actually studied 2nd John in the light of the "sister" meaning but now that I've brought it up I think I should.(:
Lisa
Mac - Really good links!
Here's this from one of them:
FIVE INDISPUTABLE FACTS
1. Without question, the Bible teaches that not all men shall be saved:
Matthew 7:13-14; 25:41,46; 2 Thess. 1:8-9; Rev. 20:11-15; 21:11,15; etc.
2. The Bible teaches that God desires all men to be saved and to come to a full-knowledge of the truth:
1 Timothy 2:4 (cf. Matthew 18:14; 2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23,32; 33:11)
3. The gospel is to be preached to every creature and all men everywhere are commanded to repent:
Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38 "every one of you"; Acts 3:26 "every one of you"; Acts 13:38; 17:30; 20:21; 26:17-20; Romans 16:26; 1 Cor. 1:23
4. Salvation is offered to all men and "whosoever will" may take of the water of life freely.
Matthew 11:28-30; John 1:12; 3:15-17; 4:13-14; 6:35-37,47,51,54,58; 7:37-38; 10:9; 11:25-26; 20:31; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43; 13:38-39; Romans 1:16; 6:23; 10:11-13; Revelation 3:20; 22:17.
5.It is the responsibility of all men to obey the gospel by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 3:18; 3:36; Acts 16:30-31; 17:30; 2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17.
SAY WHAT???!!!!
The very end of this video is one of the most shocking things I've heard in a while!
Right in the Solar Plexus
top video
Too any interested;
Regarding salvation and "once saved always saved" OSAS. Here is one that may help! I agree with his reasoning and interpretation on this, it has helped my understanding of this difficult topic. The article also has teaching on the difference between "union" and "fellowship" with God which I found to be a stumbling block until I understood the difference. Hope this helps answer questions!
http://www.gracethrufaith.com
/selah/eternal-security/
osas-the-whole-story
Marantha!
Western Oil Giants Set to Sign Iraq Deals
(Exxon and Total expected to be among firms returning after 36-year gap)
June 19….(MSN) Four Western oil companies are close to signing oil contracts with the Iraqi government that will return them to the country for the first time in 36 years, the New York Times reported on Thursday. Exxon Mobil, BP Plc, Royal Dutch Shell and Total, which had partnerships with the Iraq Petroleum Co. before the industry was nationalized by Saddam Hussein, as well as Chevron and a number of smaller oil producers, have been in talks with the oil ministry, it said. The deals are expected to be announced on June 30 and will be awarded on a no-bid basis. They will be an extension of current agreements in which the companies are providing free advice and training to the Iraqis. A total of 46 companies, including those from China, India and Russia have memorandums of understanding to provide that assistance to Iraq but were not awarded contracts. The deals for the four companies will be service contracts, in which they are paid for their work rather than offered a license for Iraq's oil deposits.
I like Jack Kelly but have never agreed with him on that one point. In fact-it didn't sit right with me and that is how I came to study this further. I actually became very bothered by it because other scripture came to mind which said more. He is an "Everyone's saved who believes in Jesus." "Grace through Faith" right? That's his motto.
What does being saved by grace mean?
"We are saved by grace, which is the unmerited favor of God in that we have nothing inherent within us that can save us from the penalty of sin which is death."
Jack Kelly states that "just believing" in Jesus is doing His will.
Let's get beyond lesson 101. It's much deeper than that.
It’s about surrendering you life to Him, and confessing Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior.
BELIEVE: Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved, you and your household (Acts 16:31)
REPENT: Unless you repent you will all likewise perish (Luke 13:3)
CONFESS THAT: Thou art the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16) For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation (Romans 10:10)
BE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST: And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name (Acts 22:16)
LIVE THE CHRISTIAN LIFE:
"It is God’s will that you should be holy [set apart from the world]; that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust...; and that...no one should wrong his brother [another person] or take advantage of him." (1 Ths. 4:3-6a).
"Live in peace with each other..., warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else."
"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Jesus Christ.”
"Do not put out the [Holy] Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil." (1 Ths. 5:13b-22).
Now that some of these things are listed you say- No, living a Christian life is not His will-Those are all WORKS!
They may be called works – but these things are THE FRUITS of doing the WILL of the Father and submitting to the Holy Spirit. Allowing Him to work in you and through you. Living waters flowing out to others-so that by your example they might believe God is with you and desire to have what they see in you.
Hey, if I was saved before my major turn-a-round then I might as well go back to being part of the world. I still” believed.” Why should I do more that what is required? All I have to do is "Believe" Jesus died for my sins. That is all the Father's will is.I don't really have to "change" a whole lot. (And Satan would love you to think that!)
We are never going to conform to God's perfect will in our sinful state. But we confess (Romans 10:10) and we are forgiven. That's why we ask Him to search our hearts and bring about what needs to be worked on and changed. (Mark 11:25)(1 John 1:9).
I have not obtained "salvation" by works but by living for & doing the Will of the Father. But by works I am "judged." (Rev 20:11-15)
1 Thes 4:3 “For this is the will of God your sanctification……..Therefore he who rejects this (God’s will for purity) does not reject men, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the classic example of who do emulate. This is exactly what He did.
“The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God [the Father] lives forever” (1 John 2:17).
Read about God's Righteous Judgment in Romans 2.
@ verse 6 it says: "God "will give to each person according to what he has done."(give life or death) To those who by persistence (yes it takes effort) in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.'
Why does is not say- "Just believe" in Jesus Christ?
Then there is "Righteousness through Faith" in Romans 3:21
-then at verse 22 "The righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all you believe.
Who is he speaking to? The Jews. Why? Because they still want to follow the law. He is telling them now Jew & Gentile are under the same law which is now through faith in Jesus Christ. We are justified by grace through Jesus sacrifice on the Cross. The law only "covered "sins pre-Jesus but were not removed. Now they have to have faith that He is the Messiah they’ve been waiting for all those years.
James 2:22 “Do you see that faith was working together with his works (Abraham), and by works faith was made perfect?......”You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
If you have faith you’re going to have works. If you’re doing the will of the Father you’re going to bear fruit. We live for Him & His glory, not for ours.
Look at 2 Corinthians chapter 5 & the Judgment seat of Christ.
“Therefore we make it our aim whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him…….Why? (Because we are judged by what we do. Not saved but judged) “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; (now he’s going to tell you why he’s personally assured) but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. (That they also have assurance by following the disciple’s Godly example.)….now read to 15.) and He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again……..17.)Therefore , if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
There is a lot more than this but if you still have any doubts read Rev 2 & 3. He is talking to “Believers”.
2:2 (The Dead Church) Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent……….. (There are a few here who are worthy but if the others overcome “I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life….”)
And the rest of the Churches are all judged by works and if they are acceptable to God they are then saved not by their own merit but through grace.
Jehovah is Holy, Mighty, and Perfect in all His ways. Where has the fear of the Lord gone? We are to live in Awe and Respect. We are to be holy for He is holy. His standards are high. Do you know him?
This is another prime example of an issue I had to face up to. I much rather think anyone and everyone who “believes” & "calls" is saved. Who wants people to go to hell? I sure don’t. In fact being a JW wasn’t bad since they don’t even believe in hell. But you still didn’t want people to go to “sleep” either. But I’m not God and His ways are not my ways. 1 Cor 2:16-"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instuct Him?"
So don't take few "Believe & Grace" scriptures out of the Bible
and ignore all of the other ones.
That is why I became so bothered about it in the first place. I heard one thing yet saw another.That double edged sword did some slicing and dicing on my heart-and believe me-it was & is painful.
We are all @ different stages on our spiritual journey. I don't think He judges by who has the most "works" wins. But that we keep pressing on & fight the good fight. He searches our hearts and intentions-there is nothing hidden from His view. (Ps 139:1 & 23,)
Lisa, Shalom! I think your posting of 5:33 PM was one of the best explanations I've ever read!
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lisa;
That was a good explanation of the whole thing in your 5:33pm post.
I don't see where you disagree with Jack? We are saved by grace thru faith, then by the working of the Holy Spirit we are becoming sanctified or set apart to God by His working in us. The outword working of this is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Works follow faith in Jesus. First we are saved (apart from works), then we do the work of the Holy Spirit who works thru us to sanctify us until the Lord comes(this is living the christian life). We do this because we want to please the Lord! Jack was just talking about being saved, not about sanctification which is the work of the Holy Spirit after salvation.
Anyway thats what I got out of this explanation. We must not confuse salvation (which is grace through faith without works) with sanctification (which is the work).
Marantha!
Jim,
If you are saying we need to do something besides confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead for salvation (Rom. 10:9), the Word of God does not support this.
Romans 3:20: “…because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight…”
Romans 3:28: “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.”
Romans 4:5: “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.”
Concerning our wills and salvation - Romans 9:16: “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.”
Galatians 2:16: “Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ Jesus, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
Eph. 2:8,9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that (faith) not of yourselves, it (faith) is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”
2 Tim. 1:9: “…who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”
Titus 3:5a: “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy…”
When Jesus told the parable of the sower He was preparing His disciples to understand the four basic kinds of hearers they could expect to encounter. There will be the unresponsive hearer (soil by the roadside) where the seed of God’s word makes no penetration whatsoever. There will be the superficial hearer (rocky soil) where there is a quick, emotional response. It brings a religious experience but not true salvation because it is evidenced by falling away when persecution hits. There will be the worldly hearer (thorny soil) who may make a token profession of faith but proves eventually that it was not genuine because he does not forsake the things of this world. (The person who returns to willfully choosing sin is giving evidence that they were probably a worldly hearer and not one of God’s elect.) Then there will be the receptive hearer (good soil). This is the one in which the heart was prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive the word with a sincere heart. They are the genuine believers. Why? Because they will bear fruit. They are the Lord’s sheep because as receptive hearers upon hearing the Shepherd’s voice they will follow Him. They will not run (or jump out of His arms) when persecution hits nor will they go back to their worldly lifestyle. They will bear “attitude” fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-contol. (Gal. 5:22-23) His sheep will also bear behavior fruit…the fruit of right living…Phil. 1:11: “…having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
We are not saved by bearing fruit or any other good work, because we cannot bear spiritual fruit until after we are saved. But we are saved for fruitbearing. Eph. 2:10: “We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works...”
Jim,
The Romans 7:9 reference was in the context of God showing mercy on whom He wills.
John 1:13 says that those who believe in His name (verse 12) are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I hesitate to speak for all who are of the conviction that the Bible does NOT teach OSAS but I think what I am about to say articulates what many of us are trying to say.
I don't believe for a minute that we are saved by works or that we lose our salvation by works. Works (whether bad or good) are the result not the cause.
As long as a person abides in Christ, he is saved. Both the OT and NT teach that faith is how relationship with God is established.
When we stop placing our faith in God that He is Lord, we stop behaving like he is Lord. The behavior is the symptom, not the cause of separtion from (or not abiding in) Christ.
From what I have read, NT Greek has more verb tenses. When the NT speaks of saving faith, the verb typically carries with a conotation that it has a durative quality. In other words, it is abiding faith, as opposed to a one time event.
In Luke chpt 15, we have the story of the prodigal son. Twice in the chapter, the father says that his son was dead but has now come back to life.
Obviously, the parable is teaching a spiritual lesson. We can be lost but we need to come back to the Father. Otherwise we remain dead. He once was with the Father but broke relationship with him. He stopped abiding with Him and there was no relationship while he was gone.
"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate."
Notice that the father wasn't celebrating the fact that his son now started to behave a certain way (or stopped behaving badly). The celebration was not about behavior. The celebration was because the prodigal son had come home. Did the Father force his son to remain with him? No. Could the son have remained lost (or dead) forever. Yes. At least that is how I read this parable.
As far as assurance of salvation goes, I think those who embrace the understanding that we must abide in Christ to remain secure are the most secure.
I have heard OSAS folks explain an apparent falling away and explicit rejection of Christ as a situation that showed a person was never saved to begin with. I have known and fellowshipped with persons who were passionate about serving God and lived lives that were spiritually fruitful while they were serving the Lord. These persons clearly were convinced that they were born again. Then, over time, they drifted away and eventually ended up totally rejecting Christ.
If you say, "Well, they clearly were never saved to begin with" then I don't see how anyone can have assurance of their salvation. You might (like them) just think you are saved and be deceived about how true your faith commitment really is. On the other hand, if you claim they are still saved, then you are faced with many, many scriptures which talk about such folks being destined for damnation.
Anyway, I think it comes down to what the Bible teaches about faith. If we make it into a formula that simply works everytime because man has no role in entering into or leaving the relationship, then that sounds like we have no free will.
If we don't have free will, then please don't criticize my understanding of what the Bible teaches about our role and responsibility to continually abide in Christ by faith. Afterall, if there is no free will, I can't help holding to this position.
As for the question of election, I believe it is corporate election. He will have His Church (though not all that are a part of His Church will necessarily always abide and remain in His Church).
There are too many warnings in Scripture that are clearly written for believers and I just can't see ALL warnings as applying to the works of believers and having no application in regards to our salvation.
If I'm drowning, and a person throws me a life line which I grab onto, did I save myself? Of course not. I depended upon the work of someone else but I had to at least cooperate and put my faith that the rope would hold and the person had the power to pull me to safety. That doesn't mean I can't let go. God warns us not to let go. We are secure so long as we cling to Him by faith.
Jim G.
Once Saved – Always Saved? A Biblical discussion…
Good introductory thoughts on why this is worth discussing.
Jim G.
Jim, you made some very good points and articulated thoughts I've pondered about many times.
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Jim G,
EXCELLENT!!!
Jim G.
I am grappling with this and with scripture. I think maybe I don't like the term once saved always saved because it can connote that a person can make a decision for Christ and then in a couple of years stop bearing fruit. There are those who might argue that they are still a believer. If in ten years they are still not walking in the Spirit and bearing fruit, then I believe their salvation was suspect. I like the term eternal security. I believe God secures our salvation and then will keep us secure until the day of our redemption. (Phil. 1:6)
You made the statement "when we stop placing our faith in Christ". Do you mean when we stop walking in the Spirit? As believers there are times when we revert to being fleshly. I was reading Romans 8 this morning. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." I see times where after salvation we choose to walk fleshly but if the Spirit of God dwells in us we will be miserable. That seemed to be the case with the Prodigal Son?
I'm thinking on all this Jim G.
Jim C, I was troubled by your statement, "Every time I sin, I am rejecting Christ." If a person is a believer I don't see this as the case. They are just walking according to the flesh.
Paul says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. It sounds like you believe a Christian is heaping condemnation on themselves when they sin. This doesn't square with scripture.
Busy day ahead but I'll check back in later.
Just touching base briefly.
I think that everyone is basically saying the same thing, more or less.
One thing I know for sure is that I sin. I'm human. And I don't reject Christ, ever.
Do you guys ever go back and read what you wrote? Jim C, my comment sounded a bit terse. My apologies if it came across that way! I was wondering if you could further explain what you meant by when you sin you are rejecting Christ.
As I was getting ready for my day this morning I was thinking that the important thing is to cling to Christ. To pursue Him with all our hearts. I can't even bear the idea of walking away from Him.
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Prophecy update
Maranatha, Mike
Jim G,
Could it be that the parable of the lost son is teaching what true repentence looks like? When at the end of his rope and bankrupt,the son came to his senses, realizing he was a sinner. Luke 15:18 shows him going to his father acknowledging his sin. The lost son's father pictures our Heavenly Father who longs to see sinners repent and rejoices when they do. There is no rebuke from the lost son's father. God has been and is seeking to save sinners, and rejoices each time one repents and is converted.
1 Tim. 2:4 says that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
It is also clear from scripture that He chooses. (Eph. 1:4)
It all works out in the mind of God. He authored both verses.
I just trust Him in that.
T.G.I.F.
(Today go with God)
:-)
Did anyone notice my acronym made no sense?
Let's try that again...
T.G.I.F.
(Today Go In Faith)
There, that's better! DUH
New post is up!
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