There is something fundamentally flawed about a purely academic interest in God. God is not an appropriate object for cool, critical, detached, scientific observation and evaluation. No, the true knowledge of God will always lead us to worship…Our place is on our faces before Him in adoration.
- John Stott -
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Ha! I had JUST posted something on the old blog as you were making this!
I'll repost.
<><
OK. This is repeat to carry us into this new post.
Kathy,
Your distinction between "self faith" and "God originated faith" seems necessary for your doctrinal position but I don't find that distinction made in Scripture.
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2For by it the men of old gained approval.
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Examples of people who gained God’s approval through faith:
Abel
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Sarah
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph
Moses’s parents
Moses
the Israelites who passed through the Red Sea
Joshua and the Israelites who marched around Jericho
Rahab
Gideon
Barak (not Obama, different guy)
Samson
Jephthah
David
Samuel
the prophets
women who received back their dead by resurrection
and others
men of whom the world was not worthy
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith…
Why did Jesus criticize people for having so little faith if it was beyond their control to exercise?
Matthew 6:30 (NIV)
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
Matthew 8:26 (NIV)
He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.
And why were so many commended for their faith?
Matthew 9:2 (NIV)
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
Matthew 9:22 (NIV)
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment.
Matthew 9:29 (NIV)
Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you";
Is God playing games with us? Does he really chastise us for having too little faith and encourage us to have faith when it is completely out of our hands and totally in His?
Jim G.
Shalom all! I've got lots to do, so of course I drop everything and start replying to people on this board. Can you say, "procrastination"? I knew you could.
Overcomer, in the last blog post you wrote, "Jim C, I was troubled by your statement, "Every time I sin, I am rejecting Christ." If a person is a believer I don't see this as the case. They are just walking according to the flesh." Let's get some definitions down so we're all talking about the same thing.
In order for an action to be sinful, it has to be three things:
1) It must be forbidden by G_D or contrary to His will;
2) You have to know that it is forbidden; and
3) You must freely choose to commit this action.
Catholics tend to divide sins into two classes: venial and mortal. "Venial" comes from the same root as "vanity" or "vain" -- a focus on yourself. These are sins that damage but do not break your relationship with G_D unless they become frequent or habitual. "Mortal" sins are those that damage or break your relationship with G_D.
As an example, stealing a pen from work would be a venial sin. If you continue to steal pens from work at the rate of, say, one pen per week or if you steal a whole box of pens at one time, then the sin has become frequent. You've adapted yourself to a sinful behavior, which now is at a risk of becoming a mortal sin. Stealing $100,000 from work is definitely a mortal sin, since there is no way stealing that much money does not harm someone else (the owner of the company, your co-workers, etc.)
Another example: before I found a pop-up blocker that worked, it was not uncommon for me to have pop-ups that advertised sex sites. That was not sinful for me, because I did not CHOOSE to have the advertisement appear. For me to not close the pop-up immediately but think about the site might be a venial sin; for me to actually visit the sex site would be a mortal sin: an action that I knew was sinful but which I freely chose to do, thus choosing to break my relationship with G_D.
Overcomer, I think what you are calling "walking according to the flesh" is what I would call a venial sin. In talking about OSAS, I would be thinking of mortal sins, actions that you know G_D has forbidden. In choosing to commit these actions, I would know they are forbidden by G_D yet I would freely and willingly reject the authority and commands of G_D and chose to follow my own heart. If I continue to reject G_D in this fashion, then I will continue to follow only me and I run the risk of G_D granting my wish and give me ONLY "me" for the rest of eternity.
In all of these examples, the solution to sin is Confession, which both Catholics and Protestants are bound to do by Holy Scripture. 1 John 1:9 and Romans 10:9-10 both teach us to confess our sins to G_D, but also James 5:16 tells us to... "Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results." In confessing our sins, we become reconciled with G_D and the relationship is healed.
Jim G., thanks for posting that link on the overview of OSAS. The author does mis-characterize the Catholic position. To say, "Integral in this line of thinking, is that one must perform good works and lead a holy life to help ensure their salvation," is an oversimplification. And as I explained above, his statement that "certain sins are said to be serious enough to forfeit one's salvation," can be true only if you build your life around those sins. EACH, EVERY, and ALL sin can be erased through Confession of those sins. (Save the sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, but that's another thread.)
The author is accurate in describing the RCC view of salvation as a lifelong process. It comes from trying to reconcile all the different interpretations of Scripture that I've read in this discussion so far. To summarize the RCC belief, Man is saved only through the loving Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross; through His Life, Death, and Resurrection we are given the chance of eternal life with the Father. Unlike the Jews of Jesus's time who taught that by keeping all 600-odd commandments in Scripture, through these "works", one could save oneself; it is faith in Christ Jesus that we are saved.
Yet, how do we gain that faith? G_D CANNOT force us to love Him or have faith in Him. That would be contrary to His nature. We must freely choose to follow Jesus and commit our lives to Him. G_D will provide the spiritual graces and faith necessary for us, but ultimately, it is our actions that allow G_D to save us: We choose to believe. In this way, our salvation becomes a cooperative venture, much like the parent helping the child build a macaroni picture for Father's Day: The parent provides the macaroni, the glue, the paint, the paper, prepares the work area, cleans up the messes, etc., allowing the child to make that wonderful creation "all by myself!"
The difference here is that the mature Christian knows that this salvation is not "all by myself." In fact, the mature Christian realizes that he or she cannot provide anything to this project. The only thing the Christian can do is to deny one's self, submit to the Will of the Father, and to work to align his or her will with the Will of the Father. The Christian must choose to do this -- G_D cannot choose this for you. How do you align your will with the Father's? Through prayer, first and foremost. "Doing good works" follow in a close second. In performing works, you are providing an external sign of your faith in G_D, you are encouraging others in their faith, and you are denying yourself to help others.
<><
Mac, Kathy, JIB, and Donna:
This is in response to Mac’s June 24, 2008 12:45 AM post regarding us sheep hearing the Lord. If it’s too long, please look at the 7 points towards the end.
The best study of the doctrine of perseverance I have seen is the book Life in the Son by Robert Shank . I’d be happy to mail you a copy if you’d like. I’ll post my e-mail address in a separate comment below and then delete it after a day or so here so it’s not out there for spammers to stumble across.
Regarding John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;”
Shank addresses this in a number of places throughout his book. He points out that the word often translated “hear” is translated “listen to” by a number of Bible scholars. In other words, the verb tense in the Greek carries the idea that his sheep continue to listen.
Here’s a little taste from the book where he expounds on John 10:27 a bit more:
The New Testament writers sometimes bade their readers recall their past experience of grace for their encouragement in present trials. But they never encouraged them to begin placing confidence in the mere fact of past grace, as if that settled matters for eternity. Rather they exhorted them to press on in the way of faith, as they had in the past. But many churches today would bar from their pulpits any man who would dare to preach the urgent warnings of Paul, the other Apostles, and our Saviour Himself, without carefully “explaining” them into total irrelevance. They have been taught to believe that a past act of faith and experience of grace constitute infallible assurance of unconditional security. They are fully confident that they are elect and therefore must continue in grace, despite any and all eventualities.
Certainly the elect will persevere in faith and grace to final salvation. The fact is indisputable. But while God knows who they are, and has known from the beginning, men can know only as they persevere. While it is true that the elect will persevere to the end, that is only half the truth; for it is equally true that they who persevere to the end are the elect. It is the latter solemn truth which the Holy Scriptures present as a matter for the utmost concern of believers. To ignore the import of the many urgent warnings against the peril of apostasy by appealing to a particular definition of the doctrine of election is to tread a path of folly and presumption. Even if Calvin’s doctrine of unconditional election were correct (which it is not) [footnote 13: The certainty of election and perseverance is with respect, not to particular men unconditionally, but to the ekklesia corporately. See Appendix E, Sec. 10.], it could never be of more than academic import, since (as Calvin acknowledged) actual perseverance in faith constitutes the only real evidence of personal election. We should be foolish indeed, were we to allow interpretations and definitions and hypotheses of the doctrine of election to dissuade us from giving earnest heed to the Saviour’s explicit warning, “Remain in me, and I in you…If a man remain not in me, he is cast forth…and withered…and burned.” Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice…and they follow me.” No man who is not listening to His voice and following Him has warrant for assuming that he is one of Christ’s sheep. No man who is not living in obedient faith has warrant for entertaining the hope of everlasting salvation.
Let us summarize: Calvin taught that, while the elect will certainly persevere in faith and grace, reprobate Christians have a temporary experience of grace during which time they are completely unaware of any distinction between themselves and the elect, sincerely believing God to be fully propitious to them and believing themselves to be truly elect. Calvin also taught that the only real evidence of the election of any individual is his perseverance in faith. Thus, even from the teachings of Calvin, we must conclude that while a past conversion experience and a present sense of grace are precious encouragements, they do not constitute absolute evidence of election to everlasting salvation.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Objectively, the elect will persevere, and they who persevere are elect. Subjectively, the individual is elect only as he perseveres. This conclusion is inescapable, regardless of one’s definition of election.
The important question arises, Is it possible to know whether we are actually persevering? Can we know whether salvation is a present reality, rather than a vain assumption? Than God, Yes! John writes, “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life” (I John 5:13). Much of the First Epistle of John is concerned with the question of how to know we have eternal life. John presents seven important ways to know that salvation is a present reality:
1. First, as there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ, there is no valid assurance of salvation possible except as one deliberately trusts in Him. Sincere faith in Jesus Christ is, itself, an evidence of salvation. It is “you who believe on the name of the Son of God” who may “know that you have eternal life” (5:13). John also writes, “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God….Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ stand begotten of God….Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” (4:15; 5:1,5). It is important to recognize that such confessions as John mentions in the preceding verses are not mere casual mental assents. John’s statements must be viewed against the background of his day. Whoever made such confessions in that day must be prepared to suffer persecution—perhaps the loss of family, friends, livelihood, position in the community, and perhaps even life itself. Men did not lightly persist in such confessions. But according to John, it is only as one earnestly believes on the name of the Son of God that he may have both eternal life, and valid assurance of that life. “Assurance” of eternal life on any other basis is vain presumption.
2. One has assurance that he has eternal life in Christ if he is honoring Christ as the Lord of his life and keeping His word and commandments. “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him” (2:3-5. Cf. 3:24: 5:2, John 8:31, 51; 14:21-24: 15:9-14, Heb. 5:8,9).
3. One has assurance that he has eternal life in Christ if he is walking after the example of his Saviour. “He who saith that he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk even as he walked” (2:6; cf. John 8:12; 14:12). No man not endeavoring to follow the example of Jesus and to walk in His steps has warrant for assuming that he is saved. Jesus is the example for all His followers. An example is not necessarily a savior; and we need more than an example: we need a saviour. But Jesus cannot be the Saviour of men who do not accept Him as their example.
4. One has assurance that he has eternal life in Christ if he loves the Father and His will, rather than the world. “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he who perseveres in doing the will of God abides forever” (2:15-17).
5. One has assurance that he has eternal life in Christ if he habitually practices righteousness, rather than sin. “If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that everyone who practices righteousness stands begotten [perfect indicative passive] of him…He who practices sin is of the devil…Whoever stands begotten of God does not practice sin, because he stands begotten of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (2:29; 3:8-10).
6. One has assurance that he has eternal life in Christ if he loves the brethren. “We know that we stand passed [perfect indicative] out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him…. My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and truth. And herby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him” (3:14, 15, 18, 19. CF. 2:9-11; 3:23; 4:8, 11, 12, 16, 20-5:1; John 13:34, 35).
7. The seventh means of assurance that one has eternal life in Christ is a consciousness of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. “He that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he dwelleth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us….Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hat given us of his Spirit….He that believeth on the Son of God had the witness in himself” (3:24; 4:13; 5:10).
excerpt taken from
Life in the Son by Robert Shank (pages 299-303)
I would have a hard time believing that a "saved" Christian would actually go as far as becoming an atheist. That one is even a stretch for me.
Lisa, actually I read of just such a situation on one of the Creationist sites. A person who hade been active in bringing people to Christ eventually became an evolutionist and an atheist and actively renounced his faith even to the point of teaching against it. The story was problematic for me. Was he truly saved at the beginning? He apparently showed fruits that this was the case. And if he was saved, and if OSAS is correct, then God has not rejected him although he has rejected God.
God loved the world so much that he gave His Son to redeem us. Dying for us certainly doesn't sound like rejection to me. Does God "reject" anyone (sinner or saint)? Doesn't he stand with open arms and whoever will may come to Him through Christ Jesus?
We are the ones who take the initiative and reject Him. He has already taken the initiative to love us.
Creation and Intelligent Design: God vs. god
Thanks for the new post. Very good choice, Alesia!
No problem dude. Thanks!
Mac,
I suppose that is an extreme example but possible. I think that's classified as "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." The one sin that won't be forgiven.
(Any thoughts?)
Donna,
"but we do cancel the "adoption" as a child into the "Body of Christ" by our actions."
I should have said we "can" cancel the "adoption" ...by our actions.
(Future tense not present tense.)
Paul was concerned with the Galations as some were falling away from the true gospel by following the teachings of false prophets.The Judaizers were "adding to" the gospel by adding legalism of the law and watering down the grace of God. That salvation would only come to those who still followed the law.
These were Christians not well grounded in faith.He calls them
"My little children" 4:19) for Paul was not with them that long and they didn't have the time for the Holy Spirit to make them full into the image & knowledge of Christ.
He says " Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"
Paul says he "fears" for them. Has "doubts" about them.
5:4 "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law;you have fallen from grace."
Those who "added to" the grace of God and Christ's work on the Cross are "Estranged" from Christ and have "Fallen from Grace." Meaning they are no longer saved and back in bondage and a slave to sin. No longer adopted into the family of Christ.
5:7-9 "You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuation does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven levens the whole lump."
Some interpretations of the scripture are taught by men but don't come from the Word of God.They can destroy the whole gospel and even your future destiny.It doesn't take a lot of leaven (sin or false teaching) to destroy the whole (Gospel and eternal destiny) lump.
As they were personally experiencing.
Verse 16 speaks of walking in the Spirit.The Spirit and Flesh are at war w/one another. Then 19 lists works of the flesh- "Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
So if you claim to be a Christian yet practice those things-It's really clear-You will not be saved.
I agree. Good post Alesia!
Mr. Hyde. Did you say choice? ;-)
Jim G,
I do understand that one believer's faith may not be as strong as another's. (Rm. 14:1: “Now accept the one who is weak in faith…”) Faith does have the capacity to grow and mature. (2 Cor. 10:15) But faith initially is a gift from God according to Eph. 2:8. It all goes back to the fact that we are dead in our sins. Deadness can't respond. If a person is drowning they still have life and can reach out to a life preserver when it is tossed to them. Scripture doesn’t say we were drowning in our sins, it says we were dead in our sins. A dead person is unable to reach out to a life preserver. Does God give us just enough life to then let us decide if we want the whole thing? If we don't then He lets us fall back into deadness? Paul said God begins the good work and will see it through to the end. Faith must first originate from God because of our spiritual deadness and because of our spiritual deadness we can’t first exercise faith in our own power.
2 Peter starts out with Peter identifying himself as a bond-servant and an apostle, “to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours…” Isn’t Peter speaking here of the believer’s power to believe for salvation? Faith and belief express the human side of salvation, God must still grant that faith. (Why? Because of our deadness! God initiates faith when the Holy Spirit awakens our deadness in response to hearing the Word of God.)
2 Peter 1:3 says “seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life…” I see that as another reference to being eternally secure in our salvation because the believer has received everything necessary to sustain eternal life through Christ’s power. And because of all the God given blessings we should not be indifferent or self-satisfied. God has given us faith and all the graces necessary for godliness. We are to add to those by our diligent devotion to right living.
I really am going to end my thoughts here on eternal security. I’ll just say one more time that I stand sure in the Word of God that He chooses us without our help and keeps us without our help.
Security scare at airport as Nicolas Sarkozy leaves Israel
Wow, I am not even sure where to begin to respond to your post, Lisa.
I guess I am kind of shocked that there are some born again believers who think that other Christians can lose their salvation by their behavior.
I totally 100% disagree with that.
No "leaning" there.
If that was the case, that salvation is based on works, than none of us would be saved.
(Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.)
I gotta hit the hay. Talk with you tomorrow!
Jim C
loved the last 2 paragraphs of your post and i think the macaroni picture is an apt description.
I need to go put my foot up because it's killing me.
quick can you believe our government. one of my patients who just lost her husband who was also a patient stopped today to tell us of her horrible adventures with social security. get this, despite being with her husband for over 30 years, married for at least 25 of them the EX WIFE gets all the ssi benefits of the husband because she is
1- the first wife and was married to him for over 10 years
2- is of an age to collect the ssi benefits
so my patient has to wait 13 years before she can collect any benefits and even then the ex wife gets 100% and she only gets 40%. should the ex wife then die in the meantime, she will then only get 71% benefits! she never gets 100% despite the fact that she was with the man 3 times longer than the ex wife! get this-the ex wife will be getting about $1100/month!!!
the sum total my patient will get from ssi is a one time lump sum of $250.
Ok, I'm throwing in my 2 cents re: OSAS...
I think this is a really BIG issue, that MUCH study needs to be done on. This IS a salvation issue. I have been concerned regarding this topic even before the discussion here.
Lisa - I do have to say that, while I agree with you regarding no leaning (after proper study & once a decision has been made) it sometimes applies while a person is studying & learning a certain topic. So, I must confess to some leaning here. :-)
I do tend to agree with both Jim G. & Lisa but then I read articles the other way & some have made sense as well.
I encourage folks to read the linked articles that Jim G. posted, they are quite good. Thanks Jim.
I think the important thing to ascertain is what is the proper definition of "believing" that Jesus is our Lord & Saviour. I think perhaps people are not completely clear on the proper understanding of this & therein lies the problem.
One of Jim's links discusses this & I think is worth the read. I shall try to find the link again (I have it in my email at home - but I'm not there right now).
Donna - I think you'd be quite surprised at just how many people don't agree with OSAS. For as many articles as there are for it - there are that many against it!
As important as sound doctrine is, aren't you all glad (I know that I am) that we don't have to pass some sort of doctrinal exam at the gates of heaven!
Praise the Lord that we are saved by the grace of God through faith!
If salvation was dependant upon getting every doctrine in the Bible just right, I'd be pretty worried right now (for you all).
JUST KIDDING! For me, too.
Jim G.
Do They Think Jesus Was a Liar?
Hi All!!!
This is Wonderful!! I have links opened up all over the place! And everyone just "expressing" their opinions and sharing with love in their hearts! Oh it feels soooo good! You can just feel His presence here...(is that possible in a virtual cave?!?! JK!!!)
Okay.. here is my question on the OSAS issue.
How can you or what must you do or not do to lose your salvation? How little or big of a sin must someone do to lose their salvation? Or how far back-slidden do you have to go before you lose your salvation?
You see, I have to admit that I am a sinner. There is not a day goes by that I do not sin. There are things that I know I should "probably" do but don't and some I don't that I should. Some days I feel closer to God than others and some days I almost don't even regard Him. Always though, I believe in the Cross and the Resurrection and what Jesus has done for me. And I love Him. I really feel like Paul alot when he says he does what he shouldn't and does not what he should.
So where in all of this do I lose my salvation?
Where is the LINE?
You all keep up the wonderful atmosphere! I love it and you all!
In His Love and looking up!
Debbie
PS There is coming an Obama-Nation!
Got a Christian friend at work that just hates it when I say that! But I believe it is coming! For Real!
Unprecedented Lightning Strikes Bring Fires
Romans Chapter 7
The Believer's Relationship to the Law
Debbie,
I think the short answer is that sin is the symptom, not the cause of one losing their salvation (aka breaking relationship with God).
It comes down to the question of whether it is possible to place one's faith in Christ and then at some point abandon one's faith.
If you have faith that He is Lord and Savior, your actions should demonstrate that. I think as long as one is conscious of and cares about the sin in their life that wars against the Spirit, then one clearly has faith that Jesus is Lord and Savior.
The folks who concern me are those that clearly once confessed Jesus as Lord and once struggled with putting to death the sinful nature and were conscious of their need for Christ who now deny him and live in such a way that they simply don't care about the things that the Lord has convicted them of. IMO, these folks are ones who once were saved and have returned to the world and walked away from the Way, the Truth, and the Life. It is a shame.
I think that the Bible warns us about allowing our faith to grow cold. This of course (IMO) relates directly to the end times in that Jesus warned about a great falling away (apostacy) in the end times.
This of course leads to another question that I don't think anyone has answered. If OSAS is true, why would Jesus chastise people of little faith and praise the faith of others. If folks have no role in exercising faith, then it seems silly for the Lord to address it like he did (very frequently in the gospels).
Whether OT or NT, it all comes down to faith. Works are the result. Good works flow from faith in God and sinful works flow from lack of faith. Faith and works are inextricably tied to each other in Scripture. One is the cause and the other is the effect. Thus, the Lord always looks at a person's heart (where faith either is present or absent).
Jim G.
Debbie,
I think the 7 points at the end of that long post of mine at 4:18 PM answer your question of where the line is.
Jim G.
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By Jan Markell
From my perspective, I'm not sure this is a discussion about OSAS.
It's more about salvation by works or faith.
Lisa has stated that she thinks people can lose their salvation by their actions or behavior.
Therefore it seems to me that ultimately Lisa must think that salvation is based on works or behavior or actions, I would think.
This is what I disagree with.
Salvation is based on faith and faith alone.
Yes, works will follow. If/when we yeild to the Holy Spirit, fruits will produce and works will follow based on a inner change, through trusting, rather than trying.
Will we continue to sin while we are still here on earth? Yes.
Are our sins covered by His work on the cross? Yes.
ALL of our sins? Yes.
All of our sins are covered, once and for all!
This is the good news!
IF someone totally changes their mind about God, Jesus, the cross, etc., after professing faith (which I supposed could happen) then perhaps they were never saved in the first place.
It's faith and always has been faith. Abraham is the father of faith. He was here before Moses and the Law. The Law leads us to Christ.
There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!
Amen!
Donna we do not disagree on any of your statements except this is the "Key" to our disagreement:
"then perhaps they were never saved in the first place."
I do believe they were saved at the time they were following God's will. That is what is in the Word of God. When they reject Him- their name is blotted out from the Book of Life.
These people have lost their salvation by their own choice. And that choice led them in a change of behavior of no longer following God's will.
The other way of loosing salvation that would be less apparent to a Christian would be deception.Following a false prophet. Thinking you are worshipping Him in Spirit and in Truth when you are not.
"Therefore it seems to me that ultimately Lisa must think that salvation is based on works or behavior or actions, I would think."
Absolutely not.Salvation is based upon the Grace of God and Christ's sacrifice on the Cross for our sins.
The "proof" of abiding in Christ will ultimately be from works. "Faith without works is dead." As the Holy Spirit molds us into the image of Christ and Holiness we will absolutely produce works and bear much fruit.
John 15 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes,that it may bear more fruit......(And boy have I been pruned these past few years!)Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in Me.
"I am the vine, and you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire and it will be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit;so you will be My diciples."
If someone has no fruit or works to show- then he is not in Christ and Christ is not in him. Therefore he is a branch that withers from lack of nurishment & is cast out and thrown into the fire.
We are not saved by works but works is the FRUIT of being saved.
When we someday come before the Jusgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5)
we will be rewarded by the things we do which are motivated by our love for God and people.(Our good fruit which we will have-otherwise we would not be here) Paul says "lets make it our aim to be well pleasing to Him." The things done in the flesh to please ourselves or gain admiration of others don't count. But-the things done in the Spirit do count which would be considered good fruit.But ultimately it's the motivation that's judged. So if the "motivation" for works is for yourself to gain rewards or to impress others-no go. If it truly is Christ working through you in the Spirit & trying to please Him-it counts.
At the Great White Throne Judgment the unsaved are judged according to their works,by the things written in the books.
The common thread throughout the whole Bible is one of choice. If you don't get it then you need to study it. This is no great mystery.
God=Freedom Satan=Bondage
Deuteronomy: 30:15
"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the Lord you God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statues, and His judgments, that you may live and mutiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.
------here it comes: "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them (materialism,your family,your job
yourself, etc..would apply to us)I announce to you today that you will surely parish;.....therefore chooose life.....
God does not want anyone to parish. He 1st calls us and desires that eveyone would respond but few actually do.When we respond to His call and cry out to Him (full submission) we are then chosen by God to be adopted into the Body of Christ as sons of God and heirs of Christ.
But-The possibly is always there that we stray off in one way or another and loose our salvation.
Obvious Choice=non-submission
Not so obvious=stray from Truth by deceptive & false teachings.
What I am telling you is 100% Biblical and if it's not then prove it.
I don't want to mislead anyone in any fashion.
And proof is not taking a few scriptures out of context. It has to agree with the entire Biblical message from Genesis through Revelation.
Hebrew 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday,today,and forever. Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines.
"Lisa - I do have to say that, while I agree with you regarding no leaning (after proper study & once a decision has been made) it sometimes applies while a person is studying & learning a certain topic. So, I must confess to some leaning here. :-)"
Ok- I agree with that !! I'm sure there are some things I'm leaning toward.(But I'll have to search around & see what they are.Can't think of one right off the bat.)
But we should try to spend as little time "leaning" as possible & search out the truth.
When you "lean" it's an unstable position. If your leaning on something strong like the "truth" then you might be pretty secure until you get a cramp in you leg.
If your leaning on something unstable like untruth then you will collapse with it as the support fails you.
(What about those anaologies!(:)
Well, that sounds a bit better. Thank you for clarifying, Lisa.
We have a beautiful day here. I am going out to tend to the gardens!
As I said, my discussions were not around OSAS, but around salvation by faith and faith alone.
I am not 100% sure about the whole OSAS. I can't imagine people being saved, then TOTALLY turning away. I can see people having doubts...even strong doubts...we all get them sometimes.
But I supposed it is possible to turn away 100%.
And yes, the little role we play is to repent and turn. We are to yeild to the Holy Spirit.
I do, however, believe that it is He who leads us back as a Good Shephard would.
Very little of it depends on us.
It is faith in Christ and what is in the HEART that counts.
<><
Joel has a new post.
I know I said I was finished but I do want to chime in about two comments and then that will be my piece for the day on the subject.
Donna said: "From my perspective, I'm not sure this is a discussion about OSAS. It's more about salvation by works or faith."
I think you are spot on Donna.
Found this from Randy Alcorn:
If we can lose our salvation, we can also keep it—by abstaining from whatever it takes to lose it. This makes it at least partially dependent on our merits. This flies in the face of Scripture's teaching that salvation is a miraculous work of God, dependent on Him, not us. If we can lose our salvation, how can we lose it? How can we keep it? What does our answer say about the nature of salvation and who it depends on? Is salvation a 50/50 proposition? Is it 10% us and 90% God? 90% God and 10% us? (Rewards are earned by our work for God, done in dependence on him, but salvation is not earned, it's not a reward—it's a gift, earned only by Christ, not us.)
Lisa said, "When we respond to His call and cry out to Him (full submission) we are then chosen by God to be adopted into the Body of Christ as sons of God and heirs of Christ."
Lisa, how does that square with Eph. 1:4?: "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..."
You can't have it both ways can you ?
I'm off to go buy roofing materials.
A great day to you All!
Dibdabdeb, Shalom! You wrote:
Okay.. here is my question on the OSAS issue.
How can you or what must you do or not do to lose your salvation? How little or big of a sin must someone do to lose their salvation? Or how far back-slidden do you have to go before you lose your salvation? ... So where in all of this do I lose my salvation? Where is the LINE?
Why do you want to KNOW?
I'm dealing this this type of questioning from my teens. In case you didn't know, up until Vatican II this idea of "line crossing" was overwhelming in Catholic culture. It's one of the reasons Vatican II was convened. When they were explaining Vatican II to my high-school "Sunday School" class they used one example that stayed with me (can't imagine why): "When a guy is finished using the toilet, if he shakes himself more than three times, that counts as masturbation." Vatican II was supposed to do away with that, viewing sin as something that affects your relationship with G_D.
Lots of people don't like that about Vatican II. They liked having firm and fast rules about what was and what was not sinful -- no gray areas; you can walk up to the line and still be fine, but you can't cross it. The problem with this view is that we then run the risk of becoming immune to sinful behavior (since I didn't cross the line, I didn't sin), or viewing non-sinful behavior as sinful.
The key is not to think of a line that you can get ri-i-i-ght up next to, but not cross. Think instead of how what you're doing will give glory to G_D. When you fail, pick yourself up, confess your sin, and continue on. The definition of a saint is not someone who doesn't sin, but one who keeps getting up again after falling. G_D is please not so much by how little we sin, but by the fact that we are trying.
<><
Jesus said, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard and hath learned of the Father cometh unto me” (John 6:45). But Jesus further declared that, for every person, the effect of the Father’s teaching (of which Jesus was the anointed vehicle, John 7:16; 12:49, 50; 17:8) is directly determined by something within, and of, the individual himself: “If any man wills to do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17; cf. 5:40-47, Luke 7:30 RSV, John 3:14-21). All who “will to do His will” are persuaded of the truth of His teaching, and therefore “hear” and “learn” of the Father and are drawn to Jesus as the Father’s gift to the Son, that He might “see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied.”
There is nothing about God’s gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel’s “whosoever will” into a “whosoever must” and a “most of you shan’t.” There is nothing about it that binds men in the strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are “free.” There is nothing about it which conjures up some dark, inscrutable paradox, loudly insisting upon the impossibility of reconciling Holy Scripture’s revelation of both the sovereignty of God and the moral freedom and accountability of men. It is only some men’s theology which does such things. All theologians to the contrary notwithstanding, the Scriptures declare that, with respect to both the saved and the lost, God takes fully into account the faculty of spiritual initiative and decision with which He endowed man in creation. He has respect for His own creation.
All of the above is an excerpt from Life in the Son, by Robert Shank (pages 338-339)
Here's how Shank views Eph. 1:4.
God's eternal purpose in grace:
Eph. 1:4 He chose us in Christ that we should be hagious kai amomous before Him.
Col. 1:22 He reconciled us to Himself in Christ, through His death, to present us hagious kai amomous before Him.
Fullfillment corporately (certain):
Eph. 5:27 Christ will present the ekklesia to himself hafia kai amomos.
Fullfillment individually (contingent):
Col. 1:23 He will present us hagious kai amomous before Him--if we continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the Gospel.
Donna, you wrote:
"From my perspective, I'm not sure this is a discussion about OSAS.
It's more about salvation by works or faith."
I think whether one accepts or rejects the idea of OSAS has implications for all of the following areas:
faith
works
free will / choice
assurance of salvation
man's role in abiding, persevering, enduring, overcoming
warnings in Scripture -- to whom? about what? why?
submission to God, yielding to the Holy Spirit
allegiance to God or to the world and it's consequences
salvation -- What is the nature of salvation? What does it mean to be saved?
discerning who are our brothers and sisters in Christ (or who is in Christ and who is in the world)
How we come down on the OSAS question influences how we answer this:
Can passages like 2 Peter 3, “God is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance” be reconciled with verses such as Ephesians 1:4 which talk about the fact that we are chosen before the foundation of the world?
People like Robert Shank have an understanding of Scripture that allows these passages to be understood in a way that is not contradictory.
Leaders who come from the OSAS perspective such as John MacArthur simply say that there are Scriptures we simply can’t reconcile because our brains are too tiny. Read here what John MacArthur says. I find it a bit disingenuous for MacArthur to use reasoning and logical arguments to support his OSAS doctrinal stance but then abandon reasoning when reason can not support it.
I’m not saying that we can ever fully comprehend God and mine all the riches contained in the Holy Scriptures. I don’t think God is too small though to be able to communicate clearly to us through His Word. He created us and set the limits of our “tiny brains” as MacArthur calls them. As David said, "I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.”
Jim G.
Kathy,
"It's more about salvation by works or faith."
I just explained that salvation is not obtained by works-then you post this.
You are trying so hard to come up with a statement that is non-biblical which would discredit what I've stated and you can't do it.
So even though I have proved that I don't believe salvation is dependant upon works you come up with the same argument.
The statement that salvation is granted by works is non-biblical.
And that is not what I had just explained.
My quote:
"Absolutely not.Salvation is based upon the Grace of God and Christ's sacrifice on the Cross for our sins."
Is that not clear?
My quote:
"The "proof" of abiding in Christ will ultimately be from works. "Faith without works is dead." As the Holy Spirit molds us into the image of Christ and Holiness we will absolutely produce works and bear much fruit."
Is that not clear? Works is only proof or fruit. It in it's self does not save us. The Blood of Christ is what has given us the hope for eternal life. Salvation is a 100% gift from Him.
"Lisa, how does that square with Eph. 1:4?: "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..."
When we choose Him, He chooses us and He has known who will remain in Him since the beginning of time.
He would like everyone to choose Him and make up the elect but it's just a fact that not everyone accepts His invitation yet all are invited. He died for the sins of the whole world. Not just for the sins of the Christians which would eventually make up the elect.
Therefore no one can charge Him that they didn't have the opportunity to be saved.
If that were the case then He would have Pre-Chosen everyone and everyone would be saved because He desires that NONE should perish but have everlasting life.There is no partiality with Him.
That's what He wants but that is not what He gets.
God is so Holy,Righteous and Just- He only operates on the basis of Perfection.
And in Perfect Love there is Free will. He operates in this way even though it probably tears His heart out to see so many he loves choose to go their own way.
In Perfect Love He came in the form of a human to redeem us from the slave to sin. Did Jesus want to be tortured,humiliated,& persecuted? No. But it was the perfect and only way to free us.
He is the 1st one to make the call. We either answer it or we don't. He doesn't give up but keeps calling. If we answer His call then the Holy Sprit does the work of molding us into the image of Christ.That is unless we continually quench the Spirit.If we get off track He "prunes" us & sometimes we get a "spanking" but that gets us back on track.
If we fall away-He keeps calling and some answer the call again.(Usually after some major dicipline.As I'm the first to raise my hand!)
God is so awesome our tiny little speck brains cannot grasp much of Him at all. All we can do is stay in His word and press on until our wrinkles are ironed out by His physical presence.
And I'm sure for us that Day can't come soon enough! This is a battle down here!
Lisa, that was an excellent post at 7:56am
Beloved -
You know what, I just accept by faith that God chooses from before the foundation of the world and that the work He begins in us He will finish to completion.
I love James MacDonald's definition of faith:
"Faith is believing the Word of God and acting on it, no matter how I feel, because God promises a good result."
I take it by faith that He chose me and will keep me because He gave me the gift of faith to believe all these things.
We are not to look at our salvation as “fire insurance”. His grace towards us was not so we could sin with abandon. With grateful hearts we should thank Him for His mercy and grace and then be about the task of growing in grace and Christ-likeness and in the knowledge of Him in whom are hidden such treasures of wisdom and knowledge!
Lisa and Jim G, there is so much we do agree upon. I say we focus on that for the time being!
In His love, grace, and, peace,
Kathy
Jib - You & your family are in my thoughts & prayers for tomorrow.
My heart hurts for you guys. :-(
Hi Mac,
Thanks for the link. It sounds to me like the book The Shack would have been more appropriately titled The Outhouse considering the content.
Jim G.
Kathy,
I know going back and forth on this issue may not be accomplishing a whole lot. Possibly for others reading these comments and links though.
If we agree that the Bible is the infalliable word of God and it does not contradict it's self then if we come across an issue such as this one-we could make it fun.
We could do teams on a topic or indivually.1st state the topic & debate. Then start @ the Book of Genesis, and one by one go through the Bible and find the passages or stories which support our view. If at anytime during the process our view changes-then we could discuss that.
Otherwise we don't discuss the issue but continue to make a brief list. Write down where to find the passage or short story example. No long drawn out explainations.
We give our lists one by one to the "secretary" who can tally up how many examples of each opposing views were found in what book.But nobody will know what that is until we either change positions or finish with the book of Revelation.
So if you ended up with 300 TOPIC A
supports and 30 TOPIC B Supports.Two other people would review the 300 A and make sure they do support the issue. Then review the 30 B and do the same.
(The people who volunteer for this job have to be objective.)
Then see if the minority of supports are really opposing the majority.This would be the hardest part and would probably take some detailed study.
But the two people who reviewed all of the scriptural evidence would be the ones to draw up the final conclusion.
There would be no quick time frame. Maybe one Bible book per week.Turn in your list 1x per mo.
If teams are involved then you could either split up the book & speed it up or both go over it individually & compare notes.
Not only would it be fun going through and trying to find scriptural evidence but I bet we would learn a great deal just from reading through the Word.
And if you disagree with the final conclusion then you disagree but everyone still wins in the end because of the effort put into the research.
Here is something I learned today.All of the Sins Against the Holy Spirit I like the format presented.
Here is the same format on The Mystery in Ephesians
"When you "lean" it's an unstable position. If your leaning on something strong like the "truth" then you might be pretty secure until you get a cramp in you leg."
This is what I've been saying to mac when he complains about cramps. Too much leaning.
OK, back to the closet.
The Tower of Babel account affirmed by linguistics
Lisa,
That could be fun. The thing is, I know I won't change what I believe because I've already looked into it so much. But we certainly could learn a lot! Another thing for me is that this is my busy season and I don't know if I could commit the time needed. I have weddings coming up and my husband and I are in the middle of a lot of projects. By the way, don't ever drop the claw end of a hammer on your head. It really hurts!! The felt is now on my cabin.
Yikes, Mac! Major deja vu!
From the linguistics article...
"In the case of Greek, this change can be seen very clearly in history. Classical Greek was a highly inflected language; it used five cases, as well as Active, Middle and Passive voice. Koine Greek was almost reduced to four cases, and the Middle voice was used rather inconsistently. Modern Greek distinguishes only three cases, but many endings have disappeared. It is a good example of van der Tuuk’s Ruin, as it is slowly becoming an isolated language."
I felt like I was right back in my comps exams for my Master's program in linguistics 5 years ago. I remember reading over the questions and feeling tears well up in my eyes! That was BC and a lifetime ago now....I can't believe I used to love that stuff!
Blessings,
Jen
Hi Jen,
Nice "seeing" you! We hope the kiddies are all well and that it has not been to hot there.
I have to say...after reading your post I have absolulely NO idea of what you are talking about! I guess I know nothing about linquistics!
"It's all Greek to me!" :)
Kathy,
When it's slow let me know!(:
This one was a real eye opener!Scary.Talk about faith growing cold.Americans say there is more than one Way
Leaning isn’t always a bad thing;-)
I don't recall if someone at the cave posted this in the past or if I first saw this somewhere else. Anyway, it is very good for those who are interested in linguistics.
Chinese language characters -- More evidence that Bible accounts are historically true
Also, if you Google:
Chinese characters flood Bible
it returns a bunch of links that look similarly interesting.
Hi Donna,
We're all well here. I'm taking my daughter tomorrow to my parents' house for a long weekend...Grammy can't wait to have just the granddaughter to fuss over (rather than the whole gang at once.)
As for linguistics, I've always loved language, dissecting it, seeing how it fits together. I got interested in ESL right after college and then decided to get my Master's degree in that specialty. There was a good chunk of the coursework that involved advanced linguistics and I had to really study hard to understand it at that level....things like where the tongue goes to make various sounds and what happens to words when you add or drop certain letters to the beginning or end.
One of my favorite aspects is seeing how other languages express ideas differently from us. My absolute favorite example is from the Spanish Bible I used to read (as a way to learn more vocabulary and grammar structure.) In the story of Jesus' birth, it says that Mary "di la luz" to the baby. We would say the very boring phrase "she gave birth." In Spanish, however, they say Mary "gave the light" (di la luz)to the baby. I found that so fascinating to consider, especially in describing the birth of Christ. Women do give children their first light in the birthing process. But in the birth of Jesus, Mary also gave Light to the world. Such a profound thought! And I never would have considered that by just reading the English version.
Well, gotta get to bed. Long drive tomorrow.
Blessings,
Jen
Jim G,
That must be your little guy in your profile pic. He's adorable!
I did read the article that you posted by John MacArthur. I agree with him 98.7% of the time. In this case I do as well.
If you ever leave a hammer on top of a ladder, don't forget you left it there when you go to move the ladder. They can turn into near lethal projectiles.
Now where'd I leave that Advil?!
Here's a couple more:
Noah’s Ark
hidden in the
ancient Chinese
characters
The original ‘unknown’ god of China
An Ancient pictogram script points to the Bible
Had mac been born a girl his mother might have called him........Eileen.
Hahahaha. Ah, jocularity!
Ok, enough of that.
Hey, Kathy, your adventures with the hammer makes me think of Moe, Larry and Curly...nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
Sorry, I need to get out more.
Abbott and Costello "Who's on first"
Kathy,
Yes, that's my boy!
He is an absolute blessing. The way the Lord brought him to us was quite amazing. I'll have to share the story sometime. He's adopted!
Sorry to hear about the hammer hitting your head. See, there's a reason the Lord gave you such a thick head. I'm JUST KIDDING! (very big grin)
Anybody up for a really good laugh?
Then click on the link Mac posted to Abbott and Costello "Who's on first" and while you're watching it, think of us all arguing about OSAS. Then try and guess who of us is Abbott and who is Costello?
You have to watch it while thinking about our recent debates though. It's very funny.
You made me laugh Jim G! I'm also still picking splinters out of my right hand. But you know what, I'm loving every head throb and splinter. For several years I was not able to be a "handygirl" due to a health condition. I LOVE doing that kind of work. The Lord has brought me back to health so I can now do some of that kind of work again. I am tired but it is a wonderful tired.
"Who's on First" - A Classic!
You made me laugh that is about my thick head!
Turning in...
Tomorrow I lay the actual roofing!
Intercessors Network:
IRANIAN GOVERNMENT CRACKS DOWN ON BELIEVERS
Iranian police have launched a more extensive crackdown on “social corruption” throughout the Islamic Republic. Voice of the Martyrs’ Todd Nettleton says a religion law is causing them concern. “It makes the death penalty mandatory for people convicted of leaving Islam to follow another faith. That, obviously, is another piece of intimidation.”
Authorities are rounding up church leaders. 44-year old Mohsen Namvar was among those arrested. “There has been, over the last 60 days, about a dozen Christians arrested. Most of them have been interrogated and held for a little while, and then released after paying a heavy bail. As far as we know, at this time, Mr. Namvar is still being held.”
Why the focus on believers? Nettleton says, “The church is growing at an absolutely phenomenal rate in Iran. Muslims are coming to know Christ; they’re getting involved with these house church groups. That is what has caused the concern of the government. That’s why these arrests are happening.”
What did everyone turn into comedians overnight?
Jim G. & Kathy - very funny. Thick head - still laughing!
Mr. Hyde - It took me a second for the Eileen one, but once I got it, coffee almost shot out of my nose - very, very funny!
MAC - I LOVE "Who's on first"!!! I was soooo happy to see that this morning. Thank you, thank you :-)
For those of you who are interested in "signs in the heavens" and astronomy-Microsoft has a real online telescope you can
download. I think it's free.
World Wide Telescope
I just watched a really good video that Sue posted today at
Praise & Coffee.
3mins 4secs in was the best one IMO, I thought my heart would burst.
Praise God for her attitude!
The cancer is spreading even further. I can see us going into the grocery store and witnessing someone jerking around w/this "annointing." This is more proof of faith growing cold-our leaders won't speak out.
JOYNER, WAGNER, ARNOTT "Commission" BENTLEY
-Andrew Strom.
Here is how Charisma announced the news of what took place in
Lakeland just a couple of days ago: "Leaders Commission Todd
Bentley at ‘Lakeland Outpouring’... The special service was billed by leaders as one of the greatest moments in revival history."
The article continues: "Canadian revivalist Todd Bentley, leader
of the “Lakeland Outpouring,” was commissioned as an evangelist
last night in a special ceremony in Lakeland, Fla., that was
broadcast into millions of homes by God TV...
"Participating leaders at the ceremony included [C. Peter] Wagner;
Ché Ahn, pastor of Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena, Calif.; John
Arnott of Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship in Canada; Bill
Johnson, pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, Calif.; and Rick
Joyner, founder of MorningStar Ministries in Charlotte, N.C."
(EDITOR's NOTE: If you saw a video of this commissioning, you
may have noticed that Staci Campbell, one of the main 'Toronto'
leaders who spoke, had her head shaking so violently - literally
whipping back and forth - that it was hard to hear her. Of course
this happens all the time and they say it is the "Holy Spirit").
CHARISMA ARTICLE continues:
"Wagner said to Bentley on the platform: “This commissioning
represents a powerful spiritual transaction taking place in the
invisible world. With this in mind, I take the apostolic authority that
God has given me and I decree to Todd Bentley, your power will
increase, your authority will increase, your favor will increase,
your influence will increase, your revelation will increase..."
“I am no church historian, but I do not know of any other time in
history, since the book of Acts, have so many different apostles
and so many different prophets and movements and leaders [been
represented],” Bentley said of the capacity crowd."
The article goes on to talk a little about why some have opposed
the revival: "Critics complain that Bentley entertains extra-biblical practices and has devoted some of his past teachings to “third
heaven” experiences and angelic encounters. They say it’s bizarre
for him to claim he has met the apostle Paul and angels named
“Winds of Change” and “Emma.” They also object to what they
believe are exaggerated claims of healings and resurrections."
For me though, one of the most grievous statements in the whole
article is this one:
"Leaders who have expressed private concerns about Bentley’s
ministry turned down Charisma’s request for public comment."
(Article source - www.charismamag.com)
ANDREW STROM: DId you see that last sentence? -Even though
some leaders have been privately expressing their concerns, they
actually refused an opportunity to speak out in public! So where
does this leave the poor sheep? Are these men so concerned with
their "reputation" that they are afraid to speak out at such a pivotal
moment? How will history judge such a thing? Isn't it simply the
"fear of man"? And Isn't this the exact reason why the Charismatic
movement is in such a mess in the first place? Have we completely
forgotten the old saying- "Evil prospers when good men do nothing"?
Who is going to stand up and declare the TRUTH in this situation?
To me, this revival has all the hallmarks of the most blatant of
Last Days deceptions spoken of in Scripture. And yet it is
prospering because good men do nothing!
Todd Bentley is claiming “a city-taking, nation-taking anointing...
We’re going to the cities, then the nations." And look at the lineup
of heavyweights that have now openly joined his crusade to
promote this "impartation" around the world: Peter Wagner, Rick
Joyner, Bill Johnson, John Arnott (of the 'Toronto Blessing'), Che
Ahn - and more!
'Who could possibly oppose such a lineup?' they think. 'What
madman would even entertain the idea? Why - his ministry would
be finished, his reputation ruined, his friends made into enemies
overnight.' Oh yes - they seem to have it all sewn up now. And
so, this "drunken glory" anointing with its angels, its 'jerking', its
epileptic-type seizures - is free to spread around the globe and be
imparted to God's precious sheep everywhere. And all the while,
so-called "concerned" Christian leaders shirk and shiver in the
shadows, never daring to openly speak out.
Shouldn't we be calling this exactly what it is - "COWARDICE"
of the worst kind? Can anyone imagine a crisis in the Spirit-filled
church that is more urgent than this one? Isn't silence simply
aiding and abetting the deception? Who will God hold accountable
for doing nothing? CHRISTIAN LEADERS - SPEAK UP!!
People have written to me asking why we are using Amazon to
put out our new book "True & False Revival" about the Lakeland
Deception. Well - this is why!
It is all very well just using emails and websites, but the fact is,
this deception is huge and growing. We have got to get the word
out to a much wider audience. We need to use Amazon and
Youtube and everything we can to alert people to what is going
on. Amazon is actually set up so that every time a book sells, its
"ranking" goes up and more people find out about it. So that way,
an entire audience that we never usually reach can begin to hear
these warnings. Please believe me - we make very little on that
book. It is discounted so heavily, and it is printed and sold by
others on Amazon - not us. So we are not in it for the "money".
I simply feel it is one of the best ways of getting the word out.
But there are others also.
We are working on some videos for Youtube and Godtube, etc,
but in the meantime please keep sending people to that Amazon
page, my friends. There is a link to it near the top of our website-
http://www.revivalschool.com
And YES! - Please feel free to post any of our articles or emails
on Blogs or Forums or anything else. Thankyou so much for your
help in getting these warnings out, my friends. I hope you can
see how urgent and important this subject is.
Does anyone know why posts get choppy like that Andrew Strom article?
It makes it hard to read.
Lisa,
I've watched the Bentley Circus on GodTV a couple times and it gives me the heebie jeebies. I think that's a medical term.
I have a friend whose brother and sister-in-law are really deep into this stuff and they revere Todd Bentley. I'm keep feeding him articles, etc to share with his brother but I don't think he's passed them along yet.
It blows me away when Bentley claims that he has just seen someone raised from the dead. I keep waiting to see that on the evening news. You would think that would be just ahead of the fire department rescuing a cat from a tree. "Man raised from the dead....tonight at 11:00." I'm still waiting in vain.
Lisa,
You asked:
Does anyone know why posts get choppy like that Andrew Strom article?
It comes from hard returns. They aren't always obvious when a person cuts and pastes into the comment box because they sometimes occur where a soft return naturally occurs. Does that make sense?
If you purposely insert hard returns every so often, it forces the non intentional hard returns to show up in the comment box because they no longer correspond with the soft returns.
Sorry if that is confusing. It's hard to explain here.
Once they show up, you then can simply use "delete' to get rid of any or all of them (the intentional and the non-intentional ones).
THE REMNANT
The video Alesia posted a link for earlier was fabulous! I highly recommend viewing it!
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Watched it on my lunch break.
And cried a few times.
EXCELLENT VIDEO!
lisa;
Thanks for the "remnant" post.
Definitely something to think about.
alesia;
Praise and coffee was great! I would love to be in the "company" and greeted by ones like those in heaven.
mac;
Who's on first. As overcomer said, a classic! Thanks!
Maranatha!
Popped in for some lunch. The headache is gone but I still have a thick head!
You know what Lisa, folks won't be needing a telescope to see the sign of the Lord's second coming. We'll be able to see it, and Him, with our plain old eyes, and what a sight that is going to be!
It's a perfect day for roofing, overcast and cool. No mishaps today other than losing my utility knife. I did have a back up however.
The job is have done, should be finished by dinner time, Lord-willing!
...that's half done by the way...
Kathy,
Funny, Funny! That's not exactly what I had in mind-good one!
Curious as to what's happening with Turkey?Look at This
No! Look at THIS
Lisa, Shalom! The next time you want to copy from an email or from one of Andrew Strom's articles, instead of copying and pasting it into the comment box here, copy and paste it into Notepad first. Go to the "Format" menu and click on "Word Wrap" to turn it on. That way you can see where the "hard returns" are and delete them. (If the line doesn't go to the right side of the window, it has a hard return.) Then you can copy and paste it into the Comment window here.
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I have to say that (typically)I am a 'hate the sin, love the sinner type', which also goes for gay people.
I've know several people for most of my life, who "wound up" being gay...and I love them unconditionally.
However...a gay parade in Jerusalem?
It's scheduled to take place tomorrow.
The parade was today.
I am finished and exhausted but the job is done!
Jim G, when this thread of comments first comes up I repeatedly see your post to me about "self faith" and "God originated faith". When I referred to self faith I was referring to salvation by works... by trusting our own merits. Obviously Scripture makes a distinction between faith that trusts in Christ's finished work on the cross and working to maintain our justification.
I'm not trying to renew the debate. I'm too tired to debate. I just wanted to let you know what I meant by self faith.
Wow, Kathy, I'm impressed!! Roofing!!!
Sorry you got a bit hurt in the process, but looks like that did not stop you!
Wonderful!!
Shalom, all! No offense to anyone who was involved in Katrina and/or Rita, but I just have to pass on this message that was posted on the Catholic Answers web site, in the "Secular News" forum, titled "Mississippi River Flooding." It started by posting a link to a Boston newspaper feature called The Big Picture. (BTW, it has the most AMAZING pictures of the flooding in Iowa.) The poster then goes on to say:
Why has this flooding ceased to be front page news?
Where are all of the Hollywood celebrities holding telethons asking for help in restoring Iowa and helping the folks affected by the floods?
Where is all the media asking the tough questions about why the federal government hasn't solved the problem? Asking where the FEMA trucks (and trailers) are?
Why isn't the Federal Government relocating Iowa people to free hotels in Chicago?
When will Spike Lee say that the Federal Government blew up the levees that failed in Des Moines?
Where are Sean Penn and the Dixie Chicks?
Where are all the looters stealing high-end tennis shoes and big screen television sets?
When will we hear Governor Chet Culver say that he wants to rebuild a "vanilla" Iowa, because that's the way God wants it?
Where are the people declaring that George Bush hates white, rural people?
How come in 3 weeks, you will never hear about the Iowa flooding again?
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Thanks Donna. It was a small, easy job. It was a shed my son and I converted into a cabin about five years ago. Even wired it for electricity! My son then used it as a bedroom when he was still with us. It's just 10x16. No ridges or valleys, just a flat roof.
The garden shed is next, and then the lean-to shed, and then I'm going to add on to our wood shed. Hopefully I'll shed a few pounds while I'm at it!
No headache but very sore muscles and a couple of blisters!
YOu're right, they are great pictures. What a terrible disaster!
Good questions, too.
True, there is not a whole lot about it in the news! I wonder why.
We had a little flooding around here.
A woman I know had a basement full of mud since the foundation of her house had a section of it that collapsed.
Her same house suffered a lot of damage in a terrible storm last year, too...they had to replace the roof..then their insurance was dropped.
Her husband was just let go after working 14 years at the same company, too!
Gee, kathy, you are making me feel like a bum!
I'm sure Donna that there is something you find joy and satisfaction in doing and when you go at it you do so with great delight!
I love photography, handygirl work, and Bible study.
Jim,
Those pictures are really something. They make you feel like your actually there.
Why?
Good question but don't we already know the answer?
Luke 21:25 "For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch,therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
What will be the reaction of the next horrific thing? Complete Apathy? Not even news worthy? I guess if it doesn't sell papers.
Jib - I just read today's God's Daily Promises & I immediately thought of you! BTW - I'm sure you did a great job explaining the dog to your son. I have to say, that photo of him with Santa at the health club is just awesome - it gave me such a chuckle! Very spirited little man he looks to be!
God will wipe away sorrow forever
Faith does not isolate us from sadness
Sing to the Lord, all you godly ones! Praise his holy name. His anger lasts for a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime! Weeping may go on all night, but joy comes in the morning. Psalm 30:4-5 NLT
I am leaving you with a gift—peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give isn't like the peace the world gives. So don't be troubled or afraid. John 14:27 NLT
Truly, you will weep and mourn over what is going to happen to me, but the world will rejoice. You will grieve, but your grief will suddenly turn to wonderful joy when you see me again. It will be like a woman experiencing the pains of labor. When her child is born, her anguish gives place to joy because she has brought a new person into the world. You have sorrow now, but I will see you again; then you will rejoice, and no one can rob you of that joy. John 16:20-22 NLT
Bond of understanding
There is an immediate bond of understanding between people who have suffered similar hardships or losses. Parents who have lost children, widows and widowers, and families of terminal-disease patients, all find comfort and encouragement in the presence of those who have known similar pain.
Paul urges believers to see opportunities for giving comfort as both a way to share the comfort of God and to use their own experiences of sorrow for good. We rarely know why suffering or trials enter our lives, but we can know that God wants to do through our sorrow.
Who do you know right now who needs a word of encouragement or comfort that your experience has prepared you to give?
Not Compromising the Gospel
By Mark D. Tooley
FrontPageMagazine.com
My Today's Daily Spurgeon:
A man who knows that his trials will not last long, can be cheerful under them. If he sees a Father’s hand in the midst of every adversity, and believes that when he is tried he shall come forth like gold from the furnace; if he knows with the Psalmist that “weeping may endure for the night, but that joy cometh in the morning,” why then grief has lost its weight, and sorrow has lost its sting; and while the man weeps he yet rejoices, seeing the rainbow of the covenant painted on the cloud. Happy man, who, under bereavement, under crosses, and losses, can still cast his burden upon God, and can say, “Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labor of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls: yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation!”
The Christian man is bound to live above his sorrows; he weeps, for “Jesus wept;” he may mourn, for the faithful have been mourners often, but he must not so mourn and weep as to be eaten up with grief; over the tops of the rolling waves he must see the haven of peace, and rejoice evermore.
Everyone have a great God day!
What wonderful posts, verses and quotes, Alesia! Thank you so much for posting them!
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Maranatha!
Alesia
thank you so much for those posts and your prayers. Our son seems to be doing well-better than expected. I think the prayers first and foremost are effective but I also think it helps that this happened while we had company to distract him. he did get very weepy and teary at bedtime last night. wanted to make sure Jack was really ok and I reassured him that Jack wasn't in pain and was feeling better than he had in a long time. We'd been telling him for about 2 years (the dog was diagnosed with nasal cancer about 2 years ago and was supposed to have died about 18 months ago) that the dog was ill and that we might not have him much longer so perhaps because it wasn't so out of the clear blue like the cat. My theology might be off but I did tell him that the cat and dog were reunited in heaven and having a grand time catching up. The dog got really depressed after the cat passed and really dwindled a lot over the last year since then.
on a lighter note-it was raining yesterday at the time the dog passed and hubby and I both thought-even the angels are crying. only he put it "the angels didn't even cry when Hobbes died". poor cat-so misunderstood but then I was his mommy so I'm biased.
Jim C
you know as well I as I do there is no political gain to be had in helping Iowa and you all aren't of the right ethnic background. They can't possibly turn this around on Bush to make him look bad so why bother.
Mac,
I'm always glad with you hear of someone standing up against adversity.
This is the root of the problem:
"Left leaning bishops in Britain have criticized Nazir Ali for violating their code of hyper political correctness and accommodation towards Islamists."
And it's happening here as well because of what the Left has done in our educational system. The children and young adults today are Brainwashed into the theory of humanism & sensitivity training.
(If you read the above article think about what they are doing in terms of the New Age "collective conscienceness")
Therefore you can never stand up for your beliefs because it may hurt someone's feelings. If you do that then your the bad guy.
I would put money on it if any one of us here at the cave stood up and made a broad public announcment that Islam was a false religon and the only way to God was through Jesus Christ we would immediately get death threats.
Look @ Mark Hardingfrom Canada."In Canada, Mark Harding was sentenced to 340 hours of community service — that is, indoctrination — under the direction of Mohammad Ashraf, general secretary of the Islamic Society of North America in Mississauga, Ontario. (Basically they made Rev.Harding endure hours of sensitivity training in reference to Islam)
Talk about having to do Good Worksto get into heaven.(Too bad most of their "good works" are devil inspired)
There was a“hate crimes” law S-625 which defined a “hate crime” the intimidation of anyone “motivated by prejudice based on race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation or disability of the victim.”
This is not limited to violent acts, but to what anyone can define as “hostility.” Under the Ted Kennedy bill, creating a “climate of hate” is a crime.
Michel Houellebecq is a well known French author found himself in a French court facing up to 18 months in jail and a $70,000 fine. What was his crime? In a magazine interview he had said, “The dumbest religion, after all, is Islam.” For those words he faced charges of “provoking racial hatred.”
Selective Veiling of Free Speach
Oh I almost forgot. I was wondering if any of you think this has any end-time significance:
North Korea destroys reactor
China is mentioned but not sure how North Korea would play out.
(I like the picture on top!) Check out this site Prophecy Update
(I signed up. I had planned on keeping Watch anyway-Just in Case.And if He tarries-then at least He's witnessing his faithful looking up. We have our Christian Holidays-however paganized-but the joy we'll have to someday be able to celebrate and worship our Lord in purity like they did in Jewish times.)(Not considering all the other times they sneaked in the golden calf & idols, etc..)But the feasts were purely representative of His 1st and 2nd comings.
The Wave
Can we show Abba a Tsunami or a Splash?
Greetings to everyone from around the world! You know how at sporting events they have “the wave” where one group starts it and then it cycles all the way around back to the beginning? Do you remember when at the year 2,000 they showed on television all the New Year celebrations going on around the world as the New Millennium began? Here is what I want to propose. Let’s have an around the world shofar assembly in every time zone on the Feast of Trumpets at sunset (the evening of September 29th) announcing to Messiah we are awake and anxiously anticipating His return. What a dress rehearsal! Won’t that stir His heart!!
We listed the 24 different time zones on a chart that you'll find at The Wave Join us by submitting the email form to get your information placed on the grid in your time zone segment. We will add your city to the list of cities and groups that are participating. Hopefully we can get people from every tongue, tribe and nation participating as we join together proclaiming Yeshua as our coming King of Kings!
Lev 23:23,24 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.
Memorial: #2142 zaw-kar' to mark (so as to be recognized), i.e. to remember; to mention; be mindful, make to be remembered, memento
Nu 10:9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.
If the Lord has no remembrance of a person or nation they have been rejected by Him:
Lu 13:25-28 When the master of the house has got up, and the door has been shut, and you, still outside, give blows on the door, saying, Lord, let us in; he will make answer and say, I have no knowledge of where you come from. Then you will say, We have taken food and drink with you, and you were teaching in our streets. But he will say, Truly, I have no knowledge of you or where you come from; go away from me, you workers of evil. There will be weeping and cries of sorrow when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are shut outside.
The Feast of Trumpets is known as: Ha Melech (Coronation of the King/Messiah) One of the aspects of Yom Teruah is to crown God as our King. The sound of the Shofar was to reaffirm God’s sovereignty and Kingship over the world. Judgment and Kingship are closely linked.
Ps 98:6-9 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King. Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together. Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.
It was a regular practice to enthrone the Kings of Israel and Judah on the 1st of Tishri. There are 4 parts to the enthronement ceremony of a Jewish King:
1. Giving of the Decree
2. Ceremony of the taking of the throne
3. The Acclamation
4. Subjects come and pledge their allegiance
Ps 47 is known as the Coronation Psalm:
1-4 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph. For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah. (The decree is given – Applause)
In verse 5 we have the shout and Shofar of Yom Teruah
:5 God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. (Acclamation)
In verses 6,7 the shouting & praising of the King
:6,7 Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises. For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. (Shouts and Praises)
In verse 8 the ceremony of the taking of the throne
:8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness. (Ceremony)
In verse 9 The believers in Yeshua are gathered in His presence & pledge their allegiance
:9 The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted. (Allegiance Pledged)
Ps 102:13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
Ps 102:16-18 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer. This shall be written for the generation to come: (The last) and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.
If you want to participate, click here to let me know if you want to be listed as:
an individual,
group or
church
and we will start posting that in the timezones. If you have family or friends that you know in a timezone not yet covered (who are willing to participate) get them contact us to participate! May this be the first worldwide dress rehearsal of believers in unity calling out to our King!
Thanks Donna & Jib.
Jib - Hope & pray everyone continues to hold up ok. It'll take time.
Lisa - Do you ever go to my blog? A lot of the sites you post here are links on my blog. You may find more sites of interest to you there.
alesia,
Yes I do-and everytime I do I go on a prophesy site related journey!
Did you have to remind me? (Now I won't be able to resist another several hours of looking around.)
Lisa
OK,
And who had the paddles to resuscitate me after I collapse?
A dear friend of mine who I've been witnessing to in SD just confided in me today some spiritual experiences her daughter is having.
Her daughter is one of my daughter's best friends. We had given them both Bibles and the daughter is very interested in Jesus and her new Bible. She always begs to go to Church. We took the daughter once w/us.
(We are flying back to SD in Aug so my daughter will get baptized while I'll get re-baptized w/her. My friend is taking the day off to go w/us.)
Anyway, the daughter's mother-in-law just passed away. (She was a Catholic) Apparently the same morning the grandma died something tapped the daughter on the shoulder (As she was walking w/her mom) and told her that her grandmother was all right and in a happy place now.
She told her mom about the tapping & later when she inquired- the daughter told her mom that she has two guardian angels. One female (?)and one Male named Otis. She talks to them quite frequently.
Right before my friend's Mother in Law died they were talking and the Grandma mentioned she had spoken w/her guardian angel several times and his name was Benedict (Like the Pope) but she never told anyone for fear of being "weird."
So my friend was pretty excited to tell me about all of this "Spiritual" angelic encounter stuff-but you can only guess what my natural reaction was.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
WHAT IS GOING ON?
I believe in guardian angels & angels but with the latest false manifestations and spiritual attacks-WHAT IS THIS?
Is this an attack on my friends I have trying to bring to Christ?
I have an odd prayer request.
the guy who was our best man is having MAJOR trouble with his ex wife and her new hubby. They are going to court to get some parental bill of rights so that if some of the things that have been happening continue to happen he'll have more legal recourse-it sounds like a really bad scene. short story she dumped him because of his bipolar disorder and her behavior as described currently would have to be doing more harm than good to their daughters. His faith was very very shaken by the whole ordeal and he expressed some major doubts about God's love etc. Not sure it has recovered. Anyhoo he wants us to fly back to be character witnesses for him but the time of the trial makes it nearly impossible-son is in school and coverage for the hospital. we will however be there about 1 month later-school break. We need the following
1-a resolution to this problem in the best interests of the kids. he very much wants to be part of their life but she won't let him.
2-that the trial date be changed to when we are going to be there so we can help our friend out or that a reasonable solution to the problem can be obtained.
he wanted me in specific to testify to something that I only vaguely remembered but found that I had saved those emails from 3 years ago and they are still sitting in my inbox!
Jib, praying for that situation. May God intervene and may His will be done.
"Is this an attack on my friends I have trying to bring to Christ?"
Lisa, I think this could well be the case. Praying for divine protection.
Feedback: Teaching by Example
The work of the Holy Spirit
hah lets try that again-one of the links didn't work so I'm redoing it.
Sirhan Sirhan the 1st Palestinian Terrorist?
Meanwhile Actual Child Abusers go free-child snatched from lawn
Your healthcare system better than ours campaign starting-falls under the heading of we told you so I would note that some of this has started already in Oregon where a woman who wanted palliative chemo was told the state would only pay for assisted suicide you can read about that here
The thought police have been busy little bees with the new colorado law which bans essentially bans expressing Christian thoughts in the public sphere
Christianity ok in private
and neither apparently comedians aren't immune either
and finally
Using Math for battlefield tactics or I wonder if they can predict Gog and Magog with the known results or even Armageddon?
I thought it would be fun to document my summer projects at Overcomer. I just posted a couple of pics. It's too hot to work outside today however. We are in the middle of a heatwave!
I guess I'm checking in briefly at the perfect time.
Nate, the link you just sent looks incredible!
I love this blood red moon stuff!
I am going to spend some time on all of this.
Thanks!
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Overcomer, Shalom! I just checked your blog, and I have to say, "heat wave"? C'mon! You're in the Pacific Northwest! That means the temperatures get into, what, the mid-70's? ;-)
Seriously, last weekend my sister-in-law reminded me of something that happened years ago when my brother and his friend were re-roofing the house, and the friend had left the hammer on the ground. My SIL has a touch of arthritis in her wrist, but she figured she could toss the hammer two stories up to the friend. Unfortunately, she let go just a hair too late. Instead of sailing to the top of the roof, the hammer sailed almost straight up, then continued on a parabolic arc.
Away from the house.
Towards the friend's car.
Everyone stopped work to watch with sick and fascinated horror as the hammer sailed on, now aimed squarely at the car's windshield. The hammer dropped closer and closer, and finally hit the windshield.
"TINK"
The hammer hit the windshield and bounced away, leaving only the tiniest of scratch marks! Since then, my SIL has not handled a hammer!
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Jim C,
Yes, we are in the middle of a heat wave! We usually get at least one a summer. It just happened to come early this year. Our thermometer on our porch reads 105 at the moment, but in the shade it is now 85, at 7:41pm. It has cooled off a bit.
I actually went out a did split one of those large rounds! I think I will leave the rest up for the guys however. I used to split wood for hours in my younger days!
You need to definitely watch out for those hammers!
Lisa, Shalom! About your friend with the angels, I don't know what other Christian faiths teach about guardian angels. Speaking as a Catholic, I can say her story is very bizarre. Generally, you only have one guardian angel. If you are ever blessed with actually meeting your guardian angel, the angel appears as your gender.
There are cases of people who have two guardian angels. My parish priest when I was growing up told about studying in Rome, where there was a woman, a mystic, who could see guardian angels. One of his fellow seminarians was one of those people who would drive 70 miles an hour through the Italian alps, a mountain on one side and a 1,200-ft. drop on the other, map in one hand, steering wheel in the other, smoking and gesturing -- you get the picture. When they were part of a group that went to visit this mystic, as they walked in the room, the woman stopped, looked at the one seminarian, and said, "Ah! Everyone has a guardian angel, but you have two!"
All in all, I'm not going to deny that her grandmother actually spoke with her guardian angel, but as for the daughter's "angelic encounters", she REALLY needs to sit down with her priest and discuss this. In particular, can her angels praise G_D and praise Jesus?
I'll keep them and Jib's friend in my prayers.
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Nate,
Thanks for those last two links re blood red moon and Jewish feasts and the peace talks scheduled in Moscow!
Jim G.
Interesting...
Agriculturally, Sukkot is a harvest festival and is sometimes referred to as Chag Ha-Asif , the Festival of Ingathering.
from:
http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday5.htm
Jim G.
Might the rapture happen during Sukkot?
The word "Sukkot" means "booths," and refers to the temporary dwellings that we are commanded to live in during this holiday in memory of the period of wandering.
2 Corinthians 5:1
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Corinthians 5:4
For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Sukkot lasts for seven days.
No man knows the day or the hour but might the Lord permit us to discern a likely week or Jewish feast?
Another observance during Sukkot involves what are known as the Four Species (arba minim in Hebrew) or the lulav and etrog. We are commanded to take these four plants and use them to "rejoice before the L-rd." The four species in question are an etrog (a citrus fruit similar to a lemon native to Israel; in English it is called a citron), a palm branch (in Hebrew, lulav), two willow branches (aravot) and three myrtle branches (hadassim). The six branches are bound together and referred to collectively as the lulav, because the palm branch is by far the largest part. The etrog is held separately. With these four species in hand, one recites a blessing and waves the species in all six directions (east, south, west, north, up and down), symbolizing the fact that G-d is everywhere.
Psalm 107:1-6
1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say this—
those he redeemed from the hand of the foe,
3 those he gathered from the lands, from east and west, from north and south.
4 Some wandered in desert wastelands, finding no way to a city where they could settle.
5 They were hungry and thirsty, and their lives ebbed away.
6 Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress.
This part of the service is known as Hoshanot, because while the procession is made, we recite a prayer with the refrain, "Hosha na!" (please save us!). On the seventh day of Sukkot, seven circuits are made. For this reason, the seventh day of Sukkot is known as Hoshanah Rabbah (the great Hoshanah).
Psalm 106:47
Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from the nations, that we may give thanks to your holy name and glory in your praise.
Revelation 6:9-17
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Judaism 101: Sukkot
Jim G.
Jim G,
I just book marked that website so I can go to it later. I touched on this awhile ago. Kristen's dad in "The Sign" writes in the epilogue on end times and the three Jewish feasts of Yom Kippur, Sukkot, and Hannukkah. He's convinced that when Christ returns He will fulfill the ultimate meaning of those three festivals and will also fulfill them chronologically to the exact day and hour, just like He did when He became the Passover Lamb on the exact day the Passover feast was celebrated by Israel at His first coming.
He sees Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, as falling on the last day of D's 70th Week, when Israel's transgression will be finished, her sins ended, and her iniquity atoned for. The prewrath position views the rapture aspect of the Lord's second coming as falling prior to that however. At least five months, since the fifth trumpet lasts that long.
Middle East peace treaty? I'll believe it when I see it and I'm betting it won't be this year.
Jib, interesting links!
Everybody: Alesia is not feeling well and needs to be well to fulfil work commitments. Please pray for her.
I found this as a comment in the "Moscow Peace Treaty Summit."
Title: THe OFFICIAL Hamas view on peace conferences
Name: PETER SM
City: MELBOURNE State: AUSTRALIA
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
Article Eight:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
Ditto for the Fatah covenant without the Islamist patina.
Lisa, it's time for you to go to bed - very late!
You took note Syria is also attending that meeting.
So Russia, Huh? I did not see Turkey mentioned-I thought they were involved in being a "middle man" other than the US.
Something smells here. It seems as Russia wanting to be "the World Power" always wants to "one up" the US. So they don't want the US to get the most recognition for this "peace treaty" which has been pushed hard by the US.
Then Israel would feel "safe" enough for a time for the Gog/Magog war to occur. As you know it will just by reading that previous Hamas article.
Maybe Russia being a leader in this Summit will really be a catalyst in lowering Israel's guard if this goes through.
Jim C.
The Grandmother was the Catholic in the Family. So her husband may have some background in it. But as for my friend & family-they are nothing other than lost.
(I wish they had a priest or pastor to go to.)
Oh here comes my 3-yr old's nightly treck down the stairs to Momma.(Now she's curled up & back asleep in hubby's upholstered desk chair.)
Something really strange happened last night. I was up w/my eldest daugher saying prayers & during my prayer she fell asleep.
As I continued on in prayer I was right in the middle of praying for her friend and the "angels" asking Jesus if they were evil spirits to send them straight to the Abyss-and EXACTLY @ that moment my daughter (who was probably only asleep for 3-5 minutes) lets out the loudest blood curtailing scream which makes the cat on the bed jump 3'in the air at mock 5 who rams over a baby gate which crashes to the ground.
Trying to remain composed-I asked her what's up as she woke up shaking and told me she dreamt a Gigantic Spider (Like Alesia's tarantula) had crawled onto her face and was injecting poison.
(And we even had a pet tarantula I caught in the garage-so she's not Arachnophobic)
Late?
It's only 2:40 am. Isn't that early?
I have to live up to my blog name you know!
Kathy, I checked out your pictures, too...cool!
Several people have written books and there are lots of articles re: Christ literally fulfilling the fall feasts at His second coming just as he literally fulfilled the spring feasts at HIs first coming.
I first read about this over 20 years ago and of course have been excited by it all since.
There are, of course, some different interpretations....so it will be interesting to see how things play out!
Most agree that we are now in the Harvest Season, when He is gathering His people.
We have had our first ever Amber Alert here in Vt. A 12 yr old girl, not too far from where I live, has been missing for a few days.
You can read more about it here
so please pray for this girl and her family.
Wow. Where is everybody? No one has posted all day!
I just brought my oldest daughter down to live with me for the first semester of college. From what her mom said, it didn't hit her until just today that she was actually moving out of her house. Should be interesting for the next few days.
While I was up there I took my youngest daughter to see "Wall-e". Excellent film! Highly recommended!
From the Times Online:
Iran ready to strike at Israel’s nuclear heart
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Wow! Here's a portion from the study notes linked below. Be sure to click on the link to see the answer.
Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
1260 days / 3.5 = 360 days
Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
7 x 7 = 49 years = 7 weeks of years leading up to a Jubilee year.
June 7th 1967 Jerusalem was restored to Israel and began to be built up in troublous times!
49 prophetic years x 360 days = 17,640 days.
So let’s count from June 7th 1967 forward, to the day, 17,640 days and see where it takes us!
El Shaddai Ministries Study Notes
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Rev. 6:12-14
The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night. Rev. 8:12
Summertime — a time for sunny days, beach weekends and of course, leisurely reflections on the end of the world and the monster asteroids that could smack into us.
Jim G & Nate,
I'm on track w/you guys. Are you watching on Rosh Hashanah?
Ok, it may another Jewish Holiday but what if it's not?
I'm fairly convinced that He will return on that particular Holiday so if I'm watching every year until the day I die so what?
It can be a personal yearly fast/pray/watch day. At least it's one day that's not saturated or influenced in Babylonian tradition.
There is something else that is making a connection to me in addition to the Sun/Moon scenario connecting w/the Jewish Feast days.
Which is "IF" the 2015 date is significant then when you back out the 3.5 years you come to the 2012 date. That date is "Very" significant to pagan demonic inspired beliefs. The Mayans, New Agers,Crop Circles etc... It comes up again and again.
So to me 2012 would naturally connect to the Abomination of Desolation & the Anti-Christ formally taking up his position in the world. If all things demonic point to that date then we know Satan also has his own set of plans.
I know people have been saying blah,blah,blah for years. But-Have we as Christians ever been "allowed" to connect so many dots as this?
It's not as if we are especially clever all of a sudden. It's because when He wants to reveal something to us-He does it.
And I have to tell you that I learn far more from the Messianic Jewish pastors or at least Israel/based pastors than any typical traditional Christian pastors so far.When you don't look through the "lens" of Jewish history/culture then many things that may be obvious are missed.
Not only in terms of Bible Prophesy but also the nature & personality of YHWH.He is so organized and precise in His ways-completely unmatchable. Also-if He tells you to do something-You'd be wise to do it.
So if the Holy Spirit is urging you to do something no matter what your feelings or mind say otherwise. Just do it.
There have been many times where I'm urged to do something so I just do it. Afterward my mind comes up w/doubts as to why I did it (such as "that was dumb" were you really "urged" to do that? now they are going to think your weird! etc.) but you know what? When it really comes down to it I don't care about those internal struggles. I know it's a part of life on earth.
Who am I to know how/when some planted "seed" will take hold?
We have Christ in us through the Holy Spirit and we have faith. There is nothing more we need.
If you have not read a "numbers" type book on the significance of order and meaning in the Bible-it will definitely give you a new appreciation and perspective for our God of order.
Here is the one I read which is excellent.
And this will conclude my "Late Night Lecture" (-:
Jim C.
From your link:“Our response will hit right at their temple.”
Temple mount? Maybe they'll blow up their mosque! Ha!
just thought I'd pop on quickly. its 3:20 am here. I went sleep early...and now can't get back to sleep!
There is so much info to absorb re: the solar and lunar eclipses and feasts.
The info thru El Shaddai and Chuck Misslers regarding it all is facinating....and overwhelming!
I'm trying to take things one step at a time.
That plus everything else that is going on in the world...wow!
Thank you so much for pointing out all of these things.
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Re the Temple and the Temple Mount, I'm convinced that there needs to be some sort of significant Islamic defeat before the Temple can be built there. I think this may well be the Gog & Magog war. There is no way the Muslims will allow a Temple anywhere near the Mount at the moment. The only other way Israel will have a Temple is if they find another location for it and I don't think this is in the Sanhedrin agenda.
It's a bit early for a new post but I thought I'd put one up just the same.
Will be praying for that little girl, Donna.
Have a great day all.
Obama is pro-Israel … or is he?
The Murder of Iraqi Archbishop Rahho
Mac, in response to your posted link "Obama is Pro-Israel, or is he", I want to share this quote from National Review between Lopez from NR and Carolyn Glick. I would post the link but it is a subscription and they wouldn't allow anyone except subscribers to access.
Here is the quote:
"LOPEZ: What’s the best-case President Obama scenario from where you sit? Worst-case?
Glick: The best-case scenario is that Obama is willing to learn from the Bush administration’s mistakes in attempting to appease the Palestinians, the Iranians, and the North Koreans. Such an Obama administration would recognize that its liberal formulations are fundamentally misguided and abandon them in favor of reality-based policies. Given Obama’s stubborn refusal to admit he was wrong about the surge and his insistence that he can strike a deal with Ahmadinejad, the likelihood of this happening is about zero.
The worst-case scenario is that Obama actually bases his foreign policy on his ideological beliefs. If he does that, he will leave Iraq prematurely and so enable Iran’s effective takeover of the country through its Shiite proxies.
He will botch up Afghanistan and end up enabling an open jihadist takeover of nuclear-armed Pakistan.
He will negotiate with Ahmadinejad, giving Iran the time and political cover to complete its nuclear program and test its nuclear weapon, and he will then refuse to assist Israel in attacking the Iranian nuclear program thus escalating the threat of an Iranian nuclear attack on Israel and Iranian nuclear blackmail of the Middle East and Europe.
He will press Israel to curtail its counter-terror activities towards the Palestinians and so enable a Hamas-Iranian takeover of the West Bank. This in turn will precipitate the expansion of the missile war against Israel from Gaza to the West Bank and so place Israel’s major urban centers and its international airport at risk.
While he will simply roll over a left-leaning Israeli government like the current one while protesting his enduring commitment to Israel’s security, if a Likud-led government is installed during his tenure and tries to extricate Israel from the failed “land-for-peace,” policy paradigm while gearing up to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities, he will treat the government with hostility and strengthen the position of Israel’s enemies in his administration. This in turn will weaken the social and political standing of American Jews who will find themselves under unprecedented and unjustified suspicion of disloyalty due to their support for Israel.
As in all things, the reality of an Obama presidency is difficult to predict and may well fall somewhere between these two extremes." END OF QUOTE
Does any of that sound familiar? In some circles, Obama is referred to as the False Messiah and real fear exists among my Jewish friends of the USA being friendly in the least respects towards Israel if he becomes president. They feel that he is so misguided that the indoctrination of Wright, Farrakhan and many, many other influences will ultimately spell the disintegration of the USA on all levels of support for Christian nations.
Of course, I can hear the cry of the liberal minded ones and I respect their cry but I ask everyone who is so pro-Obama to please listen to the voices coming from people who have no political horse to ride or support. PLEASE LISTEN! We are living in extremely dangerous days and to know and hear the truth and then disregard it for party loyality is a huge moral mistake. Learn history so you won't be guilty of repeating it again. A wrong repeated will never make the wrong right.
Love you all
Grany
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