Christ is not a reservoir but a spring. His life is continual, active and ever passing on with an outflow as necessary as its inflow. If we do not perpetually draw the fresh supply from the living Fountain, we hall either grow stagnant or empty, It is, therefore, not so much a perpetual fullness as a perpetual filling.
- A. B. Simpson -
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16"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
Matt. 20:16
Does this make me first or last?
Jim,
Did you see my note to you on the last thread?
I'm now last, but for how long?!
Kathy,
I did see you're note on the last thread. Thank you.
You wrote:
Could it be that the parable of the lost son is teaching what true repentence looks like?
Sure. I believe that Scripture is rich enough to communicate several truths (never contradictory of course) at the same time. This parable can be saying what you suggest it says as well as what I suggest it says since those truths are not incompatible with one another in my view. I mean, I'm suire you've had the experience of reading a Scripture passage that you've read many times before and the Lord opens your eyes to a whole new truth that has been there the whole time.
On its face though, the parable still seems to me to be teaching that God the Father longs to see those who have walked away come back to him. The son apparently already was a son before he decided to leave his father's house. I guess the question remains, is our eternal destiny in jeapardy when we act like a prodigal? If I'm not mistaken, the OSAS position is either (1) true Christians don't ever act like prodigals or (2) if they do, then such lifestyle changes don't tell us anything about where a prodigal's eternal destiny would be.
As I was thinking about this last night, it occurred to me that false doctrines almost always have some negative consequence (one of ours on this particular question is false since they are incompatible positions).
If the OSAS position is not true, I think the danger lies in people having a false sense of security and then falling into apostacy because they believe it is impossible for a true Christian to apostatize. I see other dangers but this is the primary one.
If the OSAS position is true and a person rejects it, what is the danger? In fact, can't I believe any doctrine without danger because nothing can stop God from saving me (if it is his will) since I have nothing to do with it?
Just curious what your thoughts might be on this?
Jim G.
Jim C,
That was a sweet comment.(Especially because I personally think of myself as often blundering my words & thoughts without any real eloquence to them.)
When I delve into Spiritual issues such as that one-it really takes it toll on me. I become so focused and intense on what I'm trying to get across it wears me out.
I'll have to look again at Jack Kelly re:salvation. I consider him to be somewhat of a "light weight" question answerer. So he could think there is more to "salvation" then just believing in Christ.
He gets some very heavy questions and answers them in one-two paragraphs. For me it does not do those questions justice. I need DETAIL. So it's possible my mind has filled in for what was not said.
On another note:
I just finished Andrew Stroms's new 118 pg book: True & Flase Revival an insider's warning
If you can I really recommend it. You can buy it for about $8.00.(Mine was hot off the press printed in Africa.)
He has been one of the 1st to speak out against the Florida Healing Revival. His background is Pentecostal but had been involved in some of the past Revivals.
I guess well known in those circles he actually left the Prophetic Movement because it gradually became diseased by lack of dicernment among other things.He lives in New Zealand.
He has a passion for preaching salvation & repentence. His heart is really to save souls & he can't believe the apsotasy running rampant in American Churches.
After reading his book I kind of felt bad for him in a way. I can feel his pain. So I'm sure it comes as no suprise to you that I wrote him a letter today agreeing with most of what he had to say but telling him about what we study in Bible prophesy and Israel not replacing the Church. That right now we should expect the Apostasy and there could be some form of Revival but most likely it will happen much later w/the 144,000 Jews & two witnesses.
But who knows. We could all wake up here one morning on fire and take it to the streets. It's certainly possible.
I'm sure this guy knows the Word much better than I but when you look @ things through a particular mindset sometimes you miss some other important details & truths.
I gave him some links and things so I'm hoping he will take a closer look.
Some of the chapters:
What is a Revival?,Manifestations
The 5 keys to discernment and others.
I was shocked to find out this teaching called IHOP. It teaches some type of "Bridal Paradigm" where Jesus loves you so much that you imagine having sex w/Him. (Sick! Sick! Sick!)
Anyway, it's a quick read but so interesting and informative & the best part- it's heart felt.
Lisa
Lisa,
I read the Jack Kelley article & was somewhat dissapointed. I found areas where, I think, he contradicted himself.
He DOES believe OSAS, based on that article anyways.
Funny!
Why I'm Voting Democrat
Jim,
I believe the whole of scripture lays out the fact that God secures our salvation-for eternity. Phil. 1:6 is a biggy-“He who began a good work in you will perfect it…” Romans 8,9, John 6:44, and John 10:27-29 also clearly, at least in my mind, teach God's sovereignty in our salvation/we are secure in our salvation. Add to those Hebrews 12:2: "...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith,. So when you come to a passage like Hebrews 6, it then needs to be studied further until there is no contradiction with other scripture. (The one where it talks about the person who was enlightened, partook of the Holy Spirit and tasted the goodness of God, then falls away.) When you study the context and the audience, you quickly understand who the audience is and know that these are people are not saved (the passage never uses the standard salvation words, like justified, redeemed, saved, sanctified) but are those who have been a part of a thriving church but are choosing to walk away. Verses seven and eight even use the illustration that when a good rain falls on soil, what the soil produces tells what kind of soil it is. “Enlightened” doesn’t indicate true salvation, just exposure to it – though Jesus brought light to the world, many are exposed but few receive it. “Tasted” is in contrast to consume – to taste is to sample, not to satisfy. “Partaker” is a reference to association, not possession – we do not associate with the Holy Spirit, but we possess Him! All three of these words point to someone who has been along for the ride, but didn’t allow Jesus to take over the driving in their personal life. On the surface it looks like someone is losing their salvation. Kristen pointed this all out to me. I’d like to share one more thing that she passed along to me. I think it is really good. (I keep the really good emails from her.) It’s going to make my comment lengthy but it’s worth it in my opinion.
“I Samuel begins with the story of Hannah and her barrenness. Not only was she barren by the choice of the Lord (1:5) but she was mocked by her husband's other wife (truly a miserable situation). When the Lord opens her womb and gives her Samuel, she prays a beautiful prayer to Him (chapter 2). In this prayer she states:
"The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts. He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with nobles, and inherit a seat of honor; for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and He set the world on them. He keeps the feet of His godly ones, but the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; for not by might shall a man prevail. Those who contend with the Lord will be shattered; against them He will thunder in the heavens, the Lord will judge the ends of the earth; and He will give strength to His king and will exalt the horn of His anointed.” I Samuel 2:6-10
According to this prayer, who is in control? Is God truly sovereign? Does anything happen outside of His choice? The line “for not by might shall a man prevail” means that the will of man accomplishes nothing – God is in control. I see His sovereignty everywhere, but I also understand personal responsibility. My dad always said that free will comes into play after salvation – He chooses us, then we have the choice of what kind of child we want to be – an obedient one which experiences the joys of a close walk with his father or a disobedient one who experiences the hand of discipline of his loving father constantly! I am not a hyper-Calvinist – I don’t think that every thought and every word and every action was predetermined by God. But I do believe that He blesses and chastises and that Satan can do nothing without God’s permission – Job even acknowledged that it was God who brought the calamity on him. James MacDonald describes the will of God like this – we’re all on a cruise ship going from point A to point B. That is God’s will and it will be done. But on the ship, you have choices. You can lay out by the pool, go to a show, climb a rock wall, eat at the buffet or in the dining room. Free will within God’s will. You can even jump over the side of the boat and He’ll deal with that, too.”
Isn’t that good?!
Shalom, all! Just one more post, and then I have to go to bed. I have to drive across the state to my nephew's wedding, so I won't be posting again until Sunday.
It looks like the Anglican Communion (Episcopal Church in America) is imploding:
Five Hundred Priests Threaten to Leave Anglican Church over Female Bishops
London, Jun 17, 2008 (CNA).- The Times of London reported this week that the Anglican Church is facing a new crisis with 500 priests threatening to leave if women are ordained bishops.
The newspaper reported that the priests have said they would leave the Church if the proposal is approved at the next general synod scheduled for July of this year.
Many priests said they feel betrayed by the proposal, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams and Archbishop John Sentamu of York have responded by saying they would work for a compromise rather than allow female bishops, even though both are in favor of female clergy.
Fifteen provinces of the Anglican Communion have voted in favor of female bishops, including Australia, Brazil, Canada, Central America, Mexico, the Philippines, South Africa and the United States.
Conservative Anglicans to announce schism
Jerusalem, Jun. 20, 2008 (CWNews.com) - Conservative Anglican prelates, meeting in Israel next week in an alternative to the Lambeth Conference, will announce that they can no longer remain in communion with the Church of England, the London Daily Telegraph reports.
Anglican church schism declared over homosexuality
Hardline church leaders have formally declared the end of the worldwide Anglican communion, saying they could no longer be associated with liberals who tolerate homosexual clergy.
Orthodox sect justified by gay clergy row, say Conservative Anglicans
Dissident Anglicans to Set Their Own Agenda
(It's interesting to note that this US News and World Report article has the orthodox Anglicans listed as the dissidents.)
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BTW, if you're going to respond to "Jim", remember there are two "Jim's" on the board now: Jim G. and Jim C. Please be specific when you're replying to one of us. Thanks!
<><
No problems, Mr Carroll.
How is the flood water situation?
Analysts Believe Hezb'allah Preparing an attack
Israel in Dress Rehearsal for Iran Strike?
'Hamas can't stop weapons-smuggling'
Behold, in God my Saviour I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the Lord is my strength and my song; and he has become my salvation.
Therefore with joy shall you draw water out of the spring of salvation.
And you shall say in that day, Praise the Lord, call upon his name, declare his doings among the Gentiles, make mention that his name is exalted.
Sing to the Lord; for he has done excelent things; this is known in all the earth.
Rejoice and give praise, O inhabitant of Zion; for great is he that is in your midst, the Holy One of Israel.
Is 12:2-6
Kathy,
" So when you come to a passage like Hebrews 6, it then needs to be studied further until there is no contradiction with other scripture."
I don't mean to be "bratty" but you say these things and go back to a scripture your comfortable with that you believe supports your view then ignore all the other scripture posted with says the complete opposite.
It's the scripture which clearly refutes your claim which should be worked out because there are alot of them.
Your correct. Scripture does not contradict it's self & this is what I think Hebrews 6 implies.
In Hebrews 6 the person who was spoken about was saved. If someone has partaken of the Holy Spirit,tasted the Word of God, and the "powers" of the age to come-they have had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The people addresssed here were those leaving the Christian faith to go back to Judaism and the law. If they fell back into Judaism there was no other hope for salvation as they again rejected Christ.
I still think we are all saying about the same thing.
I guess a better way to say it all would be once TRULY saved, always saved.
Sure there are some people who at the time accept Christ, then sometime or other change their minds and get into something totally different. Those people, I would think, are not truly saved, unless they ccme back to a true faith in Christ (which personlly I think could only be done by His leading them back, but which is a different topic.)
Then there are people who become TRULY saved; no matter what happens, they believe in Him. And yes, it has to be more that just believe, the bible even says somewhere that even the devil believes.
It has to be more of what Lisa wrote on the last post...trust, surrender, etc.
However, I believe that no matter what I DO, as long as I have a saving faith, I am saved.
Hebrews, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and all the letters teach this.
I recommend we all make sure we have a good solid understanding of these letters of the BIble. NOt just the separate and wonderful verses in them, but the letters as a whole.
Its a good idea to read each letter in its entirely first, in order to get the full idea.
The letters and all the books of the Bible can be broken down into outline form. Many wonderful bible teachers have done this for us and it helps in understanding them.
So yes, once a person is TRULY saved, they ARE ALWAYS saved.
No one and nothing can snatch us from His hand. There is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Amen!
<><
Maranatha!
Donna - NO, we are not all saying the same thing.
BIG difference IMO.
Here is another one:
"Free will within God’s will."
Ok so what is God's will for us individually?
His will is that we are free to make our own choices. He wants to know that we love him w/a sincere heart. What in the world is wrong with that?
For example: those of us who have children. Can you ever imagine not loving them? Do you fear that you may fall out of love with your own kids? Or do you fear they may not love you?
Our creator wants & deserves that same kind of love. If we are open to choose it proves it's true.
I surely don't live my life in fear of those things. “My sheep hear my voice & the follow Me.” If they stray He steers them back to the flock. But where the sheep graze it is open land. There are no fences to keep them in the flock. So it is possible even though He will always try to make sure none stray that they can stray. And if they do stray-it is possible that a wolf may come along and eat them. (Satan deceiving you)
So you think he's going to "cast a spell" on us so we can never stop loving him? What kind of real love is that? What does it prove? That @ one point we loved him so now he's going to ensure that we love him by never allowing us love anyone else more?
If that were the case then the Jewish Nation would have never strayed or rejected Christ in the first place. He would have ensured that they would love him 1st and foremost.
Do you think he loved them any less than he loves us now?
That is why we have a choice about loving or not loving him @ anytime. To prove or faithfulness.
That's why there were Two trees in the garden of Eden. All He had to do was remove the knowledge tree and we would have never been infected w/sin in the 1st place.
It's Satan's challenge to Him that we will not obey and love Him for whom He is. But rather all we care about is ourselves.
Of course God knowing all things - knows some people will love Him & obey Him. He sent Jesus to save everyone but He knows not everyone will love Him & be saved.
When you really want to believe you can never loose your salvation it seems like it's based on a personal fear. As if you don't trust yourself enough to endure all trials w/o possibly backsliding. It's a fear based belief.
But if you just think about your Children and know that you love them unconditionally-then there is no fear about falling out of love with Jehovah.
What we should fear is about being deceived. Being tricked by Satan just like he tricked Adam & Eve. That is a real fear & what we are warned repediately about. ESPECIALLY in the days we now live in.
Anyway I’m officially off my soap box.
interesting debate
I haven't chimed in much. I don't believe at all in limited atonement and I think that point can not be supported by scripture. Predestination is just one of those things that I have decided to just not think about. I don't know that it is really profitable. I have no earthly idea how to "solve" the predestination debate (I still think middle knowledge goes a long way) but I do know this-Christ commanded me and you to preach the gospel to every person and all 4 corners of the earth.
Regarding OSAS-the scripture states that nothing can remove us from the hand of God if we are his. I would suggest that includes our own behavior. I think Lisa made an excellent point-I will always be my son's mother and I will always love him. Will he always acknowledge me and love me-I hope so for if he did not my heart would break and I would long for and weep for him to do so once again. I am also acquainted with a family who's son persisted so much in his sin that God took him home at a very early age. Some of you may remember AR who used to post at Joel's-she also received a word from God that if her behavior didn't change she would be coming home early because he would not allow her to persist in such behavior.
Second, the Bible says that if a child is trained up in the way they should go they will not depart from it when they are old-it doesn't say anything about the in between time. I have seen in my own life as well as the lives of some I grew up with-we all had our moments when walking with God was the furthest thing from our mind and behavior. I have however seen God work in all of our lives and all have come back to walking with him-even those that their parents pretty much had given up on. The Bible doesn't say that we will always walk with God or even want to walk with God. David is a great example-he had some memorable moments and yet he is the one that is labeled "the man after God's own heart".
Even the nation of Israel will once again be regarded as God's wife-read Hosea. God may allow sin for a time but he will chasten the unrepentant and if he can divorce his wife and then take her back- what will he do with his children?
Alesia...well it does seem that most folks have been saying the same basic thing about salvation by faith. there may be a few twists and turns in what folks are saying, but the bottom line does seem to be that folks are in agreement in salvation by faith. yes? no?
(I was not referring to the free will/predestintion calvinism/armenianism debate, which will be ongoing while we ae here on earth, I'm sure!))
Mr. Hyde, Shalom! Had to power up the PC to print out the Mapquest map (again). Flooding is receding. With any luck, by Wednesday the water will stop going over the emergency spillway at the dam, but it's going to be at least a week from today before they'll start taking down the sandbags. We're expecting some rain late tonight and tomorrow, so we'll see what happens.
Talk to you all later!
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Hello, all,
Am in Florida right now visiting my mother, brother who had major surgery last Friday, and other relatives. Quit my job, so can stay a bit.
I like to check in on you guys once in a while, and thought I'd chime in on the OSAS thread.
Here's a scenerio I'd like you to think about. Say there is a Christian man who has given his heart to the Lord. After a time he leaves his wife and children for another woman.
Is he still saved and can he still go to heaven? Or do you say he wouldn't ever do such a thing, so it is a moot question?
Vicki
I would say he if he has a saving faith he is still saved, regardless of what he does.
It would be nice to think that he would not do such a thing if he indeed had a saving faith, but that is not the way things always go in this fallen world.
If being saved depended on what we do, none of us would get there. 'There is none righteous, no not one.' 'Our righteousness are as filthy rags'.
Being saved has to do with what He did; we have accept the free gift of what He has already done.
Vicki,
In response to the scenario you gave, I'd say that there are several possible answers that would (in my opinion) be consistent with Holy Scripture.
One of the premises you gave was that he was a Christian man who had given his heart to the Lord. For this scenario then, we will set aside the possibility that he never really gave his heart to (placed his faith in) the Lord.
His actions would seem to indicate that at least for a time, he abandoned his faith in Christ.
God's mercy is everlasting and I believe that if he repents, he can be reconciled back to God. But if he fails to repent and persists in his unbelief, he can't be saved.
Maybe it is better to conceive of salvation as an issue of relationship and position (our relationship with Christ and our position in Him) rather than possession as if we possess a ticket to heaven.
Of course, this doesn't help us to resolve the question of whether a person who is in Christ will necessarily always remain in Christ.
Jim G.
The following is a section that I cut and paste from What you believe about total depravity defines much of your logic.
It was posted in response to a message (posted on this other web site) in defense of the OSAS position. OK. Here’s the cut and paste. Plenty of Scripture for everyone;-)
I must admit I got a chuckle out of your message. What I mean is that you said that you would not challenge my salvation. What made me chuckle is as a 5 point Calvinist you can't. Because either God picked me or He did not and neither of us will know for sure until judgment day.
Believe me I am very aware of what 5 point Calvinism is. I disagree with it, but I understand it all the same. You made a statement that I want to address; you said that a person can't make personal (or private) interpretations of the Bible. My problem with that statement is that it is exactly what Calvinism does. Calvinism says that the Bible does not really mean what it says and then it gives its own interpretation. For example John 3:16 where God says that He loves the whole world and sent Jesus to die for everyone. Well that does not mean the "whole" world, just the elect. Jesus did not die for "everyone" only the elect. I have a problem with that kind of interpretation.
You quoted verses which talk about everyone being a sinner. I have no problem with any of those, but I do have a problem with how you use those verses to bolster an argument which is not addressed directly. You go from everyone has sinned and everyone was born into sin to the fact that we are so depraved that we can't even choose to follow God. I will tell you why I have a problem with that thinking.
Yes we are all depraved sinful beings and yes God has to draw us or we would not even think about following Him. Look at this verse: (John 6:44 NIV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now my question is this. Why would Jesus say this and why would God "draw" someone if they had no choice in the matter? Why doesn't Jesus just plainly say, those the Father gives me I will raise up on the last day? The very act of drawing some one means to fetch, attract, pull, etc... All of those show choice.
Look at these passages: (Ezekiel 3:18-19 NIV) [18] When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. [19] But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
(Ezekiel 33:11-13 NIV) [11] Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' [12] "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' [13] If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.
Is God just being cruel here? If He is the one who chooses then He is being cruel because these people don't really have a choice to do what is right. After all if they are "totally" depraved and only God can enable them to do right, then these two passages are a joke.
Apparently Jesus did not understand because if He had He would never of made this statement: (Luke 13:34 NIV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
"You were not willing!" Sounds to me like they had a choice in the matter.
I will not disagree that God can do whatever He wants, but His word clearly shows that He has allowed man to make choices as to serve Him or not and as to believe in Jesus or not. Yes the Bible talks about predestination and election, but not in the way that 5 point Calvinist claim it does. They claim that it is totally up to God, but God's word shows that He has given us free will to choose between believing or not believing.
Did Adam and Eve have a choice as to whether they ate from the tree God commanded them not to eat from? Or did God command them not to eat from it, but not give them the ability not to? If they did not have a choice, then original sin is a joke too. It would be a joke because we are all born into sin because of what Adam and Eve did, but if they had no choice then God choose to make them sin and He choose to make us all sinners. If that is all true, then the very command not to eat from the tree is a cruel joke.
As is this: (Genesis 4:6-7 NIV) [6] Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? [7] If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
If Cain had no choice then telling him to master sin is a joke because he couldn't.
(Ezekiel 18:31-32 NIV) [31] Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? [32] For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
What is the sense of this passage? If they could not choose to repent, then why tell them to? Why ask them "why will you die?" God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the person who dies, but if God is the one choosing then that does not sound right to me.
Is this verse a joke too? (2 Peter 3:9 NIV) The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Now Calvinist, as you yourself did, can claim that this verse only refers to the elect, but even if that is true it is a silly verse to put in the Bible. Here is why I say that: If Peter is referring to only the elect, then it is God's fault they have not yet repented. What, has He been too busy to draw them with that irresistible grace? Why would God have to be patient about His own actions?
Let me say right here, this is my problem with both Calvinism and Arminianism. Both go off into the weeds, just on different sides of the narrow path. Both have the exact same problem, they don't take the Bible as a whole, they take it for what they want it to be. They take some passages and make a doctrinal theology from them, but they totally reject other passages because they would destroy that doctrinal stand. Or they interpret passages to make them say things which they clearly do not say.
Too good to pass up;-)
Once I came across some articles in support of Calvinism and I have been in misery ever since.
Jim G.
Ralph said it well: "There is no one or two sins which will make you lose your salvation, but sin is the symptom of a deeper problem of faith. If we sin and don't confess it and turn from it, then our love and our faith will grow cold and we will turn from the Lord. We don't lose our salvation, we give it back so to speak."
Jim C, sorry about that. If I leave off the C it's for Jim G since he doesn't use his last name or initial in his ID. For you I will add the C. How does that sound?
Lisa, what are the scriptures which you feel refutes what I understand scripture to teach about losing our salvation, besides Hebrews 6? I understand Hebrews to have two audiences. One is Jewish believers who are being tempted to go back to their Judaism. The other group is not saved, the group in Hebrews 6. They have been part of a church but are choosing to walk away.
Concerning God’s will, it says in 2 Pe. 3:9 that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. It says in 2 Ti. 2:26 that God grants repentance. I see 2 Ti. 2:26 as another reference to the sovereignty of God in salvation. As far as the “all” in 2 Pe. 3:9, not all come to repentance, right? Since Eph. 1:4 says He chooses, the “any” in 2 Pe. 3:9 must refer then to those whom He has chosen and will grant repentance.
What is His will for those to whom He has chosen and granted repentance? 1 Pe. 2:9 refers to believers as a chosen race…a people for God’s own possession, that we may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called us out of darkness into His marvelous light. Verse ten says we were once not a people and we had not received mercy. Now that we have received mercy we are to:
Abstain from fleshly lusts
Keep our behavior excellent
Submit to every human institution…“for such is the will of God”
The list continues… in verse 24, we are to live to righteousness. All these things we can choose to do, being God’s obedient children, or not do, being disobedient, which as God’s children sets us up for His loving hand of discipline. As a parent I will never stop loving my children. They are both out on their own now. Part of the love while they were being raised was discipline when they strayed from doing what was right.
He told the Pharisees that the effect of true repentance will be to bring forth fruit. (Mt. 3:8) It is His will for those whom He chooses and grants repentance that they should bear fruit and that their fruit should remain. (John 15:16) Earlier in the chapter He says every branch in Him that does not bear fruit He takes away. Those branches are “in Him” and since I understand scripture to teach we can’t lose our salvation this is probably referring to severe discipline by the Father. And every branch in Him that bears fruit He prunes so it will bear more fruit.
The Lord granted me repentance forty years ago. The more I behold Him in the pages of scripture, the more I fall in love with Him. In Him are hidden so many treasures! It takes work and effort to be a diligent student but oh the joy that comes from mining “The Treasure”!
I’m enjoying the discussion for it has me mining for those nuggets!
Kathy,
In spite of our doctrinal differences, I so appreciate your sweet spirit. I don't mean to puff you up but I do want you to know that you are so appreciated!
Jim G.
It seems those who believe we have choice in the matter of our salvation also believe we can lose our salvation and those who understand that God does the choosing believe we can't lose our salvation. Am I understanding this correctly?
Thank you for your kind words Jim.
Kathy,
You wrote:
It seems those who believe we have choice in the matter of our salvation also believe we can lose our salvation and those who understand that God does the choosing believe we can't lose our salvation. Am I understanding this correctly?
I think you understand that correctly. I would just add that God initiates and makes the offer based upon Christ's work but we must respond in faith and that faith is durative in nature. Faith that endures is what matters and we have choice in whether it endures.
Jim G.
If God is sovereign, he can choose to give us free will so that the relationship is not a forced relationship. He makes himself vulnerable to being rejected by us which makes our relationship that much more precious and special. He doesn't force us to reject Him. Don't the OSAS folks essentially believe that God forces everyone when it comes to salvation?
Jim G.
Well, there is the word draw which can be translated drag. However, I am sure glad He drug me to Himself and saved me!!! Paul told the Romans that none seek after Him. He told the Ephesians that we were dead in our sin. Based on that I couldn't nor wouldn't have chosen Him! I'm not complaining one bit however because of the alternative! And because I am so grateful for His mercy and grace and giving sight to these blinded eyes it is my desire to live utterly and completely for Him.
Jim,
Do you view faith as originating from ourselves or from God?
Kathy,
That's an excellent question. I think God gives us the ability to exercise faith. But it is an action as much as a possession.
So, the ability originates from God but the use of the ability is our free choice. He reveals and we decide if we will act on his revelations.
Jim G.
Pastor Zeller from Middletown Bible church sent me this article in response to a question I put to him yesterday. I haven't read it yet but thought I'd pass it on to you guys.
Can A True Believer Depart from the Faith?
Can a Saved Person Totally Abandon His Faith in Christ?
Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves"...what not of ourselves? Faith..."it is the gift of God..."
God says that faith is not of ourselves but originates from Him.
Jim, you said the use of the ability is our free choice. Let’s go to Paul’s conversion and see if that statement can be applied. He’s on the road to Damascus. Suddenly a voice says to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” Saul said, “Who are You Lord?” The Lord replies, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting…enter the city, and it shall be told you what you should do.” Then the Lord tells Ananias to go to the house of Judas where Saul was praying. Saul sees a vision of Ananias coming to lay hands on him so he could see again. Ananias was very apprehensive because of Saul’s reputation. The Lord says to Ananias, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine.”
Paul was the author who wrote for the Author that said that faith originates from God, that none seek after God, that we are dead in our sins, that God chooses…Paul tells the Romans there is no injustice with God for loving Jacob and hating Esau. Paul then records what God said to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” (Romans 9:15)
In every letter that Paul wrote he calls himself chosen or a bond-servant. Do you think Paul would say that means that “he decided” to act on his revelations?
Paul also wrote: “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (Romans 9:16)
Do you see why now I just fall on my knees and thank Him for His grace and mercy? After salvation we become responsible to work out our salvation with fear and trembling…and when we make the right choices there is such great joy and blessing. Paul labored hard. He told the Philippians, “I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.” Christ chose Paul for the ultimate purpose of conforming Paul to His glorious image. (Romans 8:29) That is the very goal Paul pursued - and should be ours as well.
Hey all,
Overcomer's comment about submission to all human institutions brings up a question I've been struggling with for some time. When is it the duty of a Christian to peacefully resist laws and institutions in our society that go against our beliefs? This is a huge issue, as it has implications for pacifists, civil disobedience, and the issue of "just war"
Fortunately for me I'm pre-trib, but obviously if you're post-trib then you may be told to take the number of the beast. At that point, the Christian would have to be disobedient and die or obey and forsake Christ. Christ himself probably broke some ordinance by clearing out the moneylenders in the temple, so obviously, there is a time for fighting back. There is also a huge impact that a true martyr has for the faith, like St.Peter, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, etc. (by martyr I mean the classic definition of one who dies for his faith at the hands of others, not someone who kills others and dies in the process) So here is why I stuggle with this. From a biblical perspective how do we know what to do? Will the indwelling Holy Spirit guide us on a case by case basis? There are plenty of scriptural referances on both sides, fight or submit. To further complicate matters, many of us have kids. I may be willing to let myself be martyred for my faith, but less so my children. Any thoughts?
In His Grip,
Scott
My neck of the woods!
Small claim to fame, I train along side Cage's body guard. We don't see eye to eye though - he's about 6'6"!!
Spring St stars, including Nicolas Cage, at world's end
"I may be willing to let myself be martyred for my faith, but less so my children. Any thoughts?"
It's not something I like to ponder too often but I'd die for my faith if need be, and yet I'd fight (and even kill) to save my life and defend my loved ones, or anyone else for that matter. It would grieve me to do it, and I’d rather not, but I’m convinced I would if the situation warranted it.
This is an out of the blue topic but since I did not know much about the Jesuits I found a write up & old Secret Instrutions Booklet if anyone is interested.
The first part tells you some history about them then later the actual book is listed.First you see the Latin words-then the English translation.
It was really so fascinating to me. Especially when you realize the craft and cunning way these "secrets" manipulated the society at the time.
I was imagining in my mind that Satan was writing this and putting it together. It gives you an inside look at how evil operates because the same tactics are being used today. Especially with the Evolution theory and other things. The way they lay the "condemned trip" on people who decide to leave
the Jesuits are almost identical to what the JW's do. It's like it has the same author.
I imagine the Illuminati and other groups have "secret" books similar to this one.
Kathy,
The scripture in addition to Hebrews I quoted is on the last thread.
But I guess it really doesn't matter. I'm at the point of exasperation.
When we try to communicate with each other I picture in my mind the tower of Babel and we are speaking to each other in foreign tongues.
I'm sure you must feel the same way.
Lisa
Scott,
Christians should obey governmental authority, but when governmental decrees are clearly contrary to God's Word, God must be obeyed.
Two examples: Ex. 1:15-17 and Daniel 6:4-10
Taking the mark is tantamount to denying Christ and worshiping Antichrist. Who are we to worship only?
Being prewrath puts me in the middle of the great tribulation. If I've heeded Christ's warnings Lord-willing my family and I are in hiding and protected. However, I have thought of the possibility of finding myself in a situation where a knife is being held to my child or my grandchild's throat and I am ordered to deny Christ or they will die. How I shudder to even think of such a thing but what would I do? I'm sure with tears streaming down my face I would tell my child/grandchild that I cannot deny/our my Lord and Savior. Then I would commend them into the Lord's hands.
This is something I've not talked to them about yet, I've only pondered it in my own heart. But for sure if such times were coming upon us we would talk about it. Why? Because if I am the one with the knife to my throat I would want them to remain true to Christ.
Lisa,
I don't feel exasperated, just somewhat tired. But it's been a blessing to dig into scripture. I'm going to be taking some time off from blogging.
Blessings to you all!
Kathy
Russian intelligence sees U.S. military buildup on Iran border
Kathy, I'm glad I'm not the only one that needs to rest the brain sometimes. OK, often!
Iran will press on with uranium enrichment despite incentives
U.S. 'plans to neutralize Russian nuclear weapons by 2012-2015'
The articles are lengthy, but I think well-worth reading. I may not agree with everything MacArthur says but I've been know to be wrong once or twice.
A CALL FOR DISCERNMENT
Part 1 of 3
Wow, the news links you posted are pretty scarey, Mac, espec the one about america's flurry of activity near Iran's borders.
I wanted to mention that I take the God being in control thing even a bit further.
I believe the BIble teaches that not only are we saved by faith, but that we are to walk by faith as well.
That we are to trust Him (the Holy Spirit) to live thru us.
That we are to "walk by faith, not by sight".
We are to enter into His rest (Hebrews).
"Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowlege Him, and He will make straight your paths." Proverbs 3: 5&6
I just think the Bible teaches that life in general....its much more about Him than it is about us.
We are the clay and He is the Potter.
I believe the Bible teaches that not only are we saved by faith, but that we are sanctified thru faith.
Amazing how many schools of thought there are out there!
Mac, Donna,
notice the date on the RIA article about Russian intelligence and US military buildup on Iran's borders. It's from March 2007.
I noticed at that time that RIA was posting articles which were quiet alarming about the US planning an attack on Good Friday of 2007. Every day there was something, including Russian generals (as I remember) warning an attack to come on Good Friday. Then, on April 6, Good Friday came this:
MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti political commentator Pyotr Goncharov) - The U.S. military operation against Iran code-named "Operation Bite" and scheduled by the leading global media for April 6 did not take place. Bravo, Iran!
Bravo, because Iran did not swallow the bait. Eye-witnesses report that life there remained perfectly normal. State-run television and radio continued working as usual. News reports in the early hours of April 6 informed the audience as usual about the situation in Iran and the rest of the world, and the latest events in sports and culture. Now, the Islamic Republic of Iran continues to live a normal life, as if the "Bite" had never been planned.
It was the weirdest thing and I wondered why it wasn't picked up by any U.S. news outlets. Does anyone else remember that?
(If anyone wants to see some of those articles let me know and I might be able to find them. They should be searchable if you know the right keywords)
Ok Mac, you had to go and post something by John MacArthur and since I love just about anything he writes I had to go and read it! I read the first article. It was excellent by the way.
Jim, I also read the one by the police cadet. I am now challenged to see how those verses he posted square with the verses that clearly teach God keeps us secure. We all agree that the Word of God does not contradict itself, right? I'm going to put that study on hold however and rest my brain. I have a ton of projects coming up and I need to concentrate on those. So for the time being my time spent in the Word will be for fellowshipping with my wonderful Lord.
Have a blessed Lord's Day and week everyone!
The title of this web page sounds a bit harsh but the brother who put it together approaches the topic graciously (though he is also passionate about it).
It is well organized and he really focuses on what the Scriptures say.
I also like how this page allows one to see at a glance the various Scriptures he discusses in each section.
So, if you can get past the title, I think this brother explains it very well.
"Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG
Jim G.
More from the same brother (not me)...
The "Corrections" page is slightly longer than any of my "proof" pages. Surely God does not contradict Himself, and clearly none of these Scriptures mean we are "Once Saved, Always Saved." There I have John 3:36 ; Hebrews 13:4-6 ;
Romans 8:35-39 ; John 6:35-37 ; 10:27-30 ; 14:16 ; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 ; Hebrews 7:25 ; 10:10,14
1 Peter 1:5,9 ; 2 Timothy 2:10-13 ; 1:12 ; Ephesians 2:8-10 ; 1:11-14 ; Matthew 28:20
Philippians 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:1,2 ; and 2 Corinthians 5:5,10,11,17
Corrections of the Misunderstandings of OSAS Scriptures
Jim G.
Dumb guy. Sorry, Anne, I did a search on Novosti and came up with that story without checking the date.
Not a problem, Mac. I wouldn't have noticed the date either, except that I remember so well that surreal couple of weeks last year when I thought there was about to be a war and only the Russians were warning us!
Nate, I know just what you mean. Some days (like the other day when I read about the mother who chained up her two boys, installed a video monitor so she could watch them suffer, and cut pieces of one boy's flesh to feed to her friends) I just collapse with despair about the depravity and evil of the world and say, Enough, Lord, please come now and put this world out of its misery.
I so long to be with our Lord, and yet I know and love so many who don't know and love the Lord. So, I want Him to hold off a bit longer. To die is gain...
Grany, where are you? We miss you!
Morning all,
Anne, I'm with you. A few days ago I happened onto a video on the internet that showed an Amazon tribe burying alive a few of the unwanted children from their village. Maybe 5 years old and
2. The rest of the adults stood by and watched as it happened and then you could see the dirt moving slightly as the little one (buried on the top layer) tried to break free. Finally one of the other youngsters dug her out and ran with her back to a hut, but the little boy underneath was never dug out and he died although one of the tribemen said they could hear him crying all night. The video was a promo of a movie (?) documentary (?) about the practice which supposedly is common in Amazon tribes. I thought it was going to show how they bury them and then dig them up, testing them or teaching endurance or something. But no, it was plain and simple infanticide of a terrible kind with the whole village participating. The boy who rescued the little girl said he would take care of her. I don't know if they were mentally handicapped or just a burden to feed??? I was so sick in my stomach and I was shaking with revulsion. I went into the kids' room, prayed over them and thanked God for them and then wept and absolutely begged the Lord to protect His little ones from such horrors.
I know children or other dependant people are treated this way daily and I know it's gone on from the beginning of time. But to see it happen in front of you with the whole group allowing it...to wonder what the cameraman must have been thinking (I think it was made to promote reaching the tribe with the Gospel as it was on a Christian blog) and just to put yourself in those little children's shoes was almost unbearble. I call out for the Lord to return daily, but when you SEE something like that, you beg Him to finish this age and stop the insanity.
Sorry to start the day with such a downer...that's been on my heart nonstop now for the last 2 days.
Blessings,
Jen
Messanic Jews Persecuted in Israel
Do you remember this U-tube video where a minister and his wife were carjacked by an angry man and taken to the outskirts of town?
The gunman had aparently heard the minister preach. He told him to get out of the car @ gun point and was yelling at the minister if he was willing to die for his beliefs.
The wife was @ the car panicked and the minister kept looking over at her. The gunman started the countdown to make the decision.
Finally the minister broke down in tears and confessed he did not want to die.
The gunman then pulled the trigger and click,click,click. There were no bullets in the gun.
He looked at the minister with disgust and disappointment. All he said was "I thought so" threw down the gun and walked away aparently distraught but confirmed in what he had suspected.
Oh, I wish I had time to dialog more! I'm borrowing my brother's computer for a moment here in Florida, and just wanted to comment on Scott and Kathy's statements about staying true to the Lord even if it means giving our lives.
What are biblical examples of this?
When we look at the book of Daniel there are several. Look at Daniel's 3 friends, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and their test to either bow to an idol or die in the fiery furnace. They could have just bowed their heads or knelt down and said, "Lord, you know in my heart I don't really mean this. If I'm dead I can't serve you."
But they wouldn't do this and dishonor God. They would rather die than break a commandment of the Lord.
We worship who we obey.
Daniel would have rather died in the lion's den than obey an order not to pray to God. He knew that if he obeyed men and had them dictate his worship, that this would dishonor God.
I believe that the stories in the book of Daniel are indicative of the things that Christians will go through in the last days. It will all boil down to worship.
God bless,
Vicki
Oh, I wish I had time to dialog more! I'm borrowing my brother's computer for a moment here in Florida, and just wanted to comment on Scott and Kathy's statements about staying true to the Lord even if it means giving our lives.
What are biblical examples of this?
When we look at the book of Daniel there are several. Look at Daniel's 3 friends, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and their test to either bow to an idol or die in the fiery furnace. They could have just bowed their heads or knelt down and said, "Lord, you know in my heart I don't really mean this. If I'm dead I can't serve you."
But they wouldn't do this and dishonor God. They would rather die than break a commandment of the Lord.
We worship who we obey.
Daniel would have rather died in the lion's den than obey an order not to pray to God. He knew that if he obeyed men and had them dictate his worship, that this would dishonor God.
I believe that the stories in the book of Daniel are indicative of the things that Christians will go through in the last days. It will all boil down to worship.
God bless,
Vicki
Homesick for God
The woman left her water jar beside the well and went back to the village and told everyone, "Come and meet a man who told me everything I ever did! Can this be the Messiah?" So the people came streaming from the village to see him.
John 4:28-30 NLT
How many people have you made homesick for God?
Oswald Chambers (1874-1917)
Spread the good news
The Samaritan woman was so amazed by Jesus and his revelations about who he was and about the secrets of her heart and life that she forgot her water jar—the very reason she'd come to the well—and rushed back to the village to tell others about the "man" she had met. Up and down the streets she shared the good news about Jesus, for she had seen the Lord, the Messiah! Having received the living water, a perpetual spring within her that gave her eternal life (v. 14), she wanted others to know him too. So the people began streaming from the village to see him, eager to meet this incredible man who told people the secrets of their hearts.
Sharing with others what Jesus had done in us and for us stirs up interest in those who don't know him. His revelation in our lives draws to him people who desire to have him work in their lives as he does in ours. With whom could you share the Good News today? Ask the Lord to make you sensitive to his working in the lives of others, and be ready to share the hope that's within you.
LORD, forgive me for times when my excitement over knowing you has waned. I want others to know you and experience your work in their lives. Use me to spread the Good News. I pray that I will be so amazed by what you reveal to me today that I won't hesitate to share my hope with those who don't yet know you.
Hubby is having computer problems again and major at this time. In the process of dealing with it, my computer go way laid again and it seems to be when I sign up to receive email alerts at the blogs. Mac and Mr. Hyde, after I checked the Email followup here, I received over 100 messages to my gmail account with the sender being ID'd as Me. I have sent them into Google for their exam and at their request. The problem probably exists with Google's app but I just wanted you to be aware of the situation that I ran into.
I will be reformatting hubbies computer today and I really don't like the duty in the least. It would be much easier to just go purchase him a cheap-o and let him start all over again. Cheap is going to be the ticket from now on as he insists on doing things his way but he doesn't even know what his way is. Poor baby!
You all take care and keep your eyes and ears open and the light on at the cave.
Grany
"Does God Cry?"
A little girl once asked, "Mommy does God cry?"
"Don't be silly, God can't cry baby," her mother replied.
"But what about when He looks down from Heaven above
And sees all the people who needs His love?
And what about when He looks down and sees
The playground kids fall and scrape their knees?
Or how about Aunt Jane who can't have baby girls or boys?
Or what about the poor kids who gets no Christmas toys?
Maybe God would cry if He lived with my friend Tommy.
Whose daddy beats and bruises him and his mommy.
Or maybe if He looked down and saw people being killed,
I think He'd surely have eyes that are tear filled.
But I think most of all, mommy, what would have made God cry,
Is when He looked down at the cross and watched His baby die."
The mother stood in silence as her eyes filled with tears,
For she knew her little girl was wise beyond her years.
Staring into deep blue eyes, the mother found courage to say,
"Yes baby girl, I think God looks down and cries every day."
God Bless you and keep you safe in Jesus' arms!
I have been reading the OSAS discussion going on here and at certain points have been troubled.
I know in my heart that I cannot prove anything to God.
I came to know the Lord at 16. I have walked away from that relationship many times. I know, that I know that I was saved that day when I was 16.
I would walk away from the Christian life because I felt so discouraged at the fact that I failed at it so much. I never felt like I was gonna make it.
I now realize to the depths of my soul that my righteousness and my entry into heaven is through the atoning work of Christ and absolutely nothing else.
Over these few days I have really been asking God to show me what to make of all of this. He knows my heart. If I have learned anything in the past few years, it is, do not run from God when you sin, run to Him, full blast. He is the only way to forgiveness and the work of the Holy Spirit is the only way to true change from the heart.
I listened to a sermon today and I felt that it was the answer to my petition to the Lord. Please listen to it. It is a bit long and the main address to the OSAS comes toward the end, but it is so worth it.
http://nwcpodcast.org/index.php?id=143
(sorry, I don't blue, but please take the time to cut and paste.)
I really see the beauty of the Lord in so many of you by the graceful, loving attitude that you have toward each other, even when you disagree.
Grace
Today has been quite the day.
The message @ Church was in Colossians and was Sin, Repentance, and Hell is real. (Hey my type of message!) Do it now for you don't if you'll be here tomorrow.
Anyway it must have been pretty effective because my Hubby for the 1st time in his life went up to the alter call to publically repent & be saved.
This was a MAJOR step for him. I knew he'd been thinking about it but he's got the prideful thing going & it's just not his style.
He was so nervous. The pastor mentioned he was going to call today after the sermon.So come to find out hubby was thinking about it the entire time.
Then the call came. I looked at him staring frozen straight ahead and nudged him & asked if he's going up. He was still frozen. Then I said "He's not going to bite you." and then he went up.
I think about 8-10 went today.
He came back and squeezed my hand so hard from nerves-but He did it! And I'm so proud of him! Now I can't wait to see the "New Creation" form.(But if it takes as long as it did for him to go to the alter I may be waiting awhile)(:
Lisa
UN showing its true anti-semitism
Hezbollah sleeper cells activated in Canada
Europe frees jailed Muslim Cleric
How wonderful, Lisa!
Great post, Grace! I plan to listen to the sermon you posted about tomorrow.
<><
regarding the OSAS discussion;
As I see it so far, the problem comes down to a few questions.
1)Can a "true christian" give back the gift of salvation? Can he walk away from the Lord and ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit?
2)If he cannot then the question then becomes where is his free will? Is God not violating free will if a person cannot become unsaved?
3) Would a truly saved person want to give back his salvation and walk away from God knowingly?
If I have misinterpreted the questions please correct me.
I am very concerned about these questions too if any would like to comment.
grace;
I listened to the video you posted and if I heard it correctly, he believes that a saved person can walk away from God if he ignores the Holy Spirit and his conscience long enough. Please correct me if I am wrong.
lisa;
Praise God for your husbands decision to go forward today!
Grace’s sermon link
Lisa,
Praise God about hubby, that's fantastic news!
gt,
I've already said my peace about OSAS. But our pastor today also included a call for the "backslid" Christians to come up and repent & be prayed for.
He the commented how many outright unbelievers and sinners there are in CA in comparison with TN-which is in the Bible belt. Most people here have been raised in Church yet many backslide and need to come up to the alter and re-dedicate their lives to Christ with the rest of them.
I took that as a non-OSAS call.
Arrest Corps. that don't promote climate change
Shalom, all! Back from my nephew's wedding and getting ready for bed. Wedding went off without a hitch, reception was great (one of the bride's uncles does a lot of the regional barbecue contests -- yum!) and got to spend time with my brothers and sisters.
Lisa, PLEASE tell me you're joking bout that "Secret Instructions Booklet"! Frankly, I think the author borrowed heavily from "The Secret Protocols of Zion"; not to mention that the woodcut of "A Jesuit" looks very much like a stereotypical Jew that you'd find on anti-semitic literature of the time. Just substitute moneybags for the crucifix and airbrush in the horns.
Way too much activity on here all of a sudden. I'll check back in after I've had a chance to digest some of this stuff.
<><
Lisa,
That is THE BEST NEWS anyone can post here. Does your husband know that the angels were rejoicing today because of this? What is our new brother's name?
In respnse to gt's questions:
1) Can a "true christian" give back the gift of salvation? Can he walk away from the Lord and ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit?
I’d say “yes” and “yes” to both questions although I’m not sure I would phrase them the way you did.
Do not quench the Spirit.
I Thess. 5:19
But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.
Is. 63:10
2) If he cannot then the question then becomes where is his free will? Is God not violating free will if a person cannot become unsaved?
There are so many Scriptures that instruct man to choose good over bad, life over death, wisdom over folly, etc... They aren’t limited to just our lives after we have entered into relationship with God. Some are warning to get into relationship with God.
3) Would a truly saved person want to give back his salvation and walk away from God knowingly?
Their spirit would never want to walk away from God not but their flesh (sinful nature) would always want to.
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Matt. 26:41
For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. Galatians 5:17
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Galatians 6:7-9
I think a more important question is:
What do we mean when we use the term "saved"?
I think it means saved from the penalty of our sins and freed from bondage to the sinful nature. I think what saves us though is being reconciled to Christ and abiding in Him. Relationship with Christ is what it is all about. Salvation seems to be a benefit of being reconciled to God.
I think the our focus should not so much be on avoiding eternal damnation (fire insurance) though we all need to do that because we all have sinned. Isn't the real issue separation and alienation from God. We need to be reconciled and there is no way that we have the power or means to do that ourselves. So God paid the price and made away through the precious blood of His Son.
When we enter into Christ through faith, we are reconciled. We are crucified and raised with Him. The Holy Spirit convicts the sinner of sin but he doesn't force Himself upon us. We must invite Him into our hearts, confess our sins, confess that He is Lord, and believe (not just once but continuously) that He is Lord.
Anyway, I think the Bible teaches that we must respond to God's offer of forgiveness and reconciliation with a heart of faith. Does that mean we can never fail Him? Of course not.
I think it is much like a marriage. I fail my wife from time to time as she does me. But we love each other and remain committed to each other even despite our failures.
We must be vigilant though. Of course, Christ is the perfect husband. He will never fail us either corporately or individually. I say corporately because corporately we are His Bride but individually we may or may not remain part of the Church (or Body of Christ).
But, we are capable of letting our love grow cold and taking His sacrafice for granted. It is a dangerous thing. Anyway, I think the warnings in Scripture imply that one can be separated from God even after being reconciled to Him (born again). The consequence of separation from God is damnation if we die in a state of separation.
It's worth repeating:
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Galatians 6:7-9
Jim G.
P.S. I don't see much of a problem if what I articulated is wrong and the OSAS position is correct. But the OSAS position is incredibly dangerous it is wrong.
I hope this helps explain my passion and persistance on the topic. I still love all you OSAS brothers and sisters!
Oops. Typo.
I meant to write:
P.S. I don't see much of a problem if what I articulated is wrong and the OSAS position is correct. But the OSAS position is incredibly dangerous IF it is wrong.
Jim G.
I believe Scripture teaches we are saved by God's grace through faith (the kind that endures, persists, does not give up, and overcomes).
Jim G.
"I think that the right might worry a bit more about the dangers of sectarianism. Whatever we once were, we're no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers," Obama wrote in an e-mail to CBN News senior national correspondent David Brody.
"We should acknowledge this and realize that when we're formulating policies from the state house to the Senate floor to the White House, we've got to work to translate our reasoning into values that are accessible to every one of our citizens, not just members of our own faith community," wrote Obama.
Obama: America is 'no longer Christian’
BTW, great posts, Alesia.
Nice to see you back safe & sound Jim C
Jim G, I always pray that the Lord keeps my leash tight, just in case. So far He has done that. This little sheep has made Him go out of His way many times. In an article I linked to earlier, the point was made that while some may reject Him and depart from the Faith for whatever carnal circumstances, He doesn't reject them. I do lean towards OSAS but I don't take it for granted.
Saudis May Increase Production Again
Good to hear from you, Wilma. Hope all goes well with the reformat. I don't get e-mail updates from the blogs so I'm blissfully unaware of the problems...and prefer it that way. Google has been playing up though as others have complained.
Blessings!
Jib, how's the foot!
Good news, Lisa (-:
In the Name of Jesus :
Joseph Chambers
My Redeemer Lives
By Ron Graham
Jim G.,
Really good post at 10:50.
I didn't intend to link any more articles on this subject but I thought Hunt made some good points - as he does in his book. This is probably the last one I'll post for a while, though.
Dave Hunt on OSAS
Good morning, miss Alesia. Your new day and nearly my bed time!
Good night Mac, sleep well.
I'm posting earlier than usual - while your posting later than usual today.
good morning alesia and have a good nights sleep mac...and thank you for the posts.
I too lean towards OSAS, but don't take it for granted.
Jim G said it well when he said:
"I believe Scripture teaches we are saved by God's grace through faith (the kind that endures, persists, does not give up, and overcomes)."
I know personally that I repent and turn and repent and turn.
I realize I really only need to do that once....that He forgave me "once and for all". But I do continue to repent and turn.
<><
Obama, America is no longer Christian!
That one got me riled up. I knew that guy is a fake.
And what a hypocrite! He could not be more of a racist! Guilty by association.He only left Rev.Wright because of political reasons.
He knows America was founded on the Christian premise of "Free Choice" and anyone can still practice any religion of their choosing.
I don't see any Christians running around trying to make this a communist country. His remarks about Christians dividing is due to the dividing of the Sword of Truth. The fact we will not accept any other religion as truth except Christianity. That is where his problem lies. We vote for the candidate who upholds the most Biblical values.
If that's putting a damper on the heathen then too bad.
He's trying to rally all the "universal" minded people against the Christians. To outnumber us and make us "feel bad" so we won't speak up anymore.
And I'm afraid it will probably be effective for the "fence sitting" Christians. They'll blend in with the rest while we stand out and look like "nut cases" and get ridiculed.
There is no greater & noble cause for enduring the ridicule and standing firm for our King of Kings-Jesus Christ. If this man becomes President-the US will forcefully turn on us for causing waves and not being "fair minded to accept everyone's views."
So get ready cause here it comes.
(If I didn't feel like we are so close to the Trib then I'd have some hope for Mc.Cain-even though I'm not thrilled w/him either. I hope I'm wrong.)
To clarify...Obama stated that:
"My intention was to contrast the heated partisan rhetoric of a distinct minority of Christian leaders with the vast majority of Evangelical Christians – conservatives included – who believe that hate has no place in our politics"
There are Christian's out there who do not identify with the political Christian Right.
Personally, I am embarrassed by some of the political Christian right people! In my opinion, some of them give Chritianity a bad name!
Speaking of that.
What is with people "leaning" toward a view point. Does that mean you have not made a firm decision yet?
Or is that sitting on the fence looking down at both sides. Taking what you like about each?
It's either one or the other.One is true the other false.There is no blend or mix.
Sorry if I seem harsh-that Obama statement has got my blood flowing this morning along w/the coffee.
I don't see shades of grey. It's black or white to me.
I think I'm so upset because I see the armies mounted and ready to attack us. We really have to know what we believe and why we believe it. It's time to take a stand and be firm in our convictions in the Word. If we aren't we are going to be slayed.
Satan is mounted & ready to give us all he's got and we don't have much time left to train and be ready for major combat.
Ephesians 6: 11,18
Put on all of God's armor. Then you can stand firm against the devil's evil plans....At all times, pray by the power of the Spirit.
Are you tacked up and ready to go?
Have you trained and use all your tools effectively?
Have you girded your waist w/truth?
Have on the Breastplate of righteousenss?
Are your feet shod w/the gospel of peace?
and ABOVE ALL-are you skilled with your shield of faith? Which we will be able to quench all the firey darts of the wicked one.
The helmet of Salvation.
How about your sword of the Sprit? If you didn't have a Bible do you recall enough in memory to use?
(Like me, I recall the passages but I still have to look many up.I'll tell Hubby something and since he's an Attorney he'll say- "And where does it say that? And I usually reply-I don't know the verse but I can look it up. Wouldn't it be so much better if I already knew!)
Lisa
Donna,
Don't you see the facade?
Who is Obama to speak about hate? "who believe that hate has no place in our politics?"
So he believes hate has no place in Politics yet its ok to believe it in Church and listen to your pastor spew hate out of his mouth?
What kind of double talk is this?
I don't know much about his specific views of the "political Christian Right."
I'm not sure if I would fall under that category or not. I'm definitely more right of center than left. So in his view if you’re a "liberal" Christian then you’re acceptable?
What exactly does he mean?
I think I know. If you follow the watered down gospel, love everyone, don't take a stand on the truth or become divisive then you’re ok.
I'm sure there are some extreme Christian Rt advocates that go overboard but he has no room to talk what-so-ever about personal extremism.
The guy is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
I'm really disappointed to what happened to Billy Graham in his later years. He got involved in politics and has now adopted a universalistic viewpoint of it's all the same God.
hmmmm
Obama Changes Presidential Seal
Hi Lisa,
As far as all of this "leaning" towards one side ..well, SOME issues do not seem to be totally black or white.
I lean towards once saved always saved...but...I'm sure there are some people who APPEARED saved at the time, then fall away later and totally reject Christ.
Perhaps they really were never saved at all in the first place.
I also LEAN towards Calvinism..that He leads us to Him and without Him leading us and opening our eyes, etc, we can not see it. HOWEVER, there also does appear to be a responsibility on our part to accept.
In my opinion, on some of these issues, there DO appear to be some gray areas.
As far as Obama goes, I have not looked into his statements about Christianity,etc, that much yet.
But as far as his frustrations with the relgious right, there are many other Christians who are also frustrated with the Religious Right politics.
Sorry for the length, someone just sent this to me in email. Wanted to share...
Dear Lord, I thank You for this day, I thank You for my being able to see and to hear this morning. I'm blessed because You are a forgiving God and an understanding God. You have done so much for me and You keep on blessing me. Forgive me this day for everything I have done, said or thought
that was not pleasing to you.
I ask now for Your forgiveness. Please keep me safe from all danger and harm. Help me to start this day with a new attitude and plenty of gratitude. Let me make the best of each and every day to clear my mind so that I can hear from You. Please broaden my mind that I can accept all things.
Let me not whine and whimper over things I have no control over. And give the best response when I'm pushed beyond my limits.
I know that when I can't pray, You listen to my heart. Continue to use me to do Your will. Continue to bless me that I may be a blessing to others. Keep me strong that I may help the weak...
Keep me uplifted that I may have words of encouragement for others. I pray for those that are lost and can't find their way. I prayfor those that are misjudged and misunderstood. I pray for those who don't know You intimately.
I pray for those that don't believe.
But I thank you that I believe that God changes people and God changes things. I pray for all my sisters and brothers. For each and every family member in their households. I pray for peace, love and joy in their homes that they are out of debt and all their needs
are met. I pray that every eye that reads this knows there is no problem, circumstance, or situation greater than God. Every battle is in Your hands for You to fight.
I pray that these words be received into the hearts of every eye that sees it.
Donna - I know we differ, politically speaking, but felt the need to throw this in, nonetheless.
I am very proud to call myself a "right-wing" conservative republican. I DO think there are a FEW extreme right-wing lunatics, but IMO, they are not the norm.
I don't believe you to fall under this category, but overall, I think the Christians that say they have a problem with right-wing politics are typically the "luke-warm" types or folks who are not very "politically" educated.
However, I don't mean that as an insult or criticism to anyone here.
Zoo Incident...Typical Media Reporting
A man is walking through the zoo when he sees a little girl leaning into the lion's cage.
Suddenly, the lion grabs her by the cuff of her jacket and tries to pull her inside to devour her right in front the little girl's screaming parents.
The man runs to the cage, hits the lion square on the nose with a powerful punch.
Whimpering from the pain, the lion jumps back letting go of the girl, and the man returns her to her terrified parents.
A reporter has seen the whole scene and says to the rescuer:
'Sir, this was the most gallant and brave thing I saw a man do in my whole life.'
'Why, it was nothing,' said the man. 'Really, the lion was behind bars and I knew God would protect me just as He did Daniel in the lions den long, long ago. I just saw this little kid in danger, and acted as I felt was right.'
'I noticed a bible in your pocket. Are you a Republican,' asked the journalist.
'Yes, and I'm a Christian on my way to a bible study,' the man replies.
'Well, I'll make sure this won't go unnoticed... I'm a journalist and tomorrow's paper will have this on the front page.'
The journalist leaves. The following morning the man buys the paper to see if it indeed brings news of his actions, and reads on first page:
'Right Wing Republican Christian Fundamentalist Assaults African Immigrant and Steals His lunch.'
Yep! This is the way the media works alright!
Donna,
Both the Calvinists and Non-Calvinists agree on this point:
"that He leads us to Him and without Him leading us and opening our eyes, etc, we can not see it."
That is a biblically supported & correct statement.
So let's just omit the "Leaning" OSAS. Either you believe in that doctrine or you don't.
If there is something about that doctrine you don't agree with then further examination is necessary.I would classify the act of being unsure as "Leaning."
Sometimes we are just not sure about a certain position because we may not have spent the time in study and prayer to commit it as truth. And that's ok too but I think we really need to spend the time and get it worked out so we can be effective servants for Christ as he works through us to plant His seeds in other's lives.
The last thing we need to do is plant a seed which will not sprout and bear fruit.
If you tell a backslid Christain OSAS-then there is not a whole lot of motivation get back and right with God. If your saved regardless of doing God's will-who cares.
And if you think some are pre-selected and "chosen" then when you see someone backslide the attitude could be "oh well" they were never really "picked" to begin with. There's little motivation to encourage them to come back to Christ.
I find both those attitudes to be very callous and not exemplifying love. (I'm not implying you have those attitudes but that is where the danger lies in OSAS)
Alesia, That Zoo incident was funny! Below is another prime example of the media.
Obama's Popularity growing among Conservatives
"Obama is meanwhile reaching deep into the Republicans' evangelical base, arguing that concern for social justice and environmental stewardship should count as much as fulmination about abortion, gay marriage and gun rights.
(Here we go- "Social Justice" as "Universalism"and "Evironmental Stewardship" as "Global Warming.")
"The old mantra of 'guns, God and gonads' just doesn't exclusively define younger Christian conservatives. It's not that they're turning liberal, but they're multi-dimensional," Zogby said.
(Multi-dimensional? could this refer to a brainwashed society of "collective conscienceness?")
(Conservatives are Multi-Dimensional? I guess it's now better to be on more than one dimension so are they going to the
3rd Heaven w/Todd Bentley?)
"John McCain has a bigger opening than I think he realizes, of putting together a different kind of coalition. Right now, he's not doing it. He's playing '90s politics."
Sullivan, who is an atypical high priest of US conservatism in that he is British, gay and Catholic, would welcome that kind of bipartisan coalition -- but sees it coming from Obama rather than the Republicans.
( How does an "atypical" gay high priest and US conservatism even compare in any way?)
The Illinois senator would end not just the war in Iraq but the war of ideology, Sullivan argued way back in December, before Obama's candidacy truly caught fire with his victory in the Iowa caucuses.
(You can put your bets on that one. End the war w/conservative ideology and absolutes. Replace it with humanism and realitivity.)
"It is a war about war -- and about culture and about religion and about race. And in that war, Obama -- and Obama alone -- offers the possibility of a truce," he wrote in The Atlantic.
(culture and religion yes-it's a war and there may be an uprising and revolt in America if he's elected and pushes his agenda too far. The war of race is a war in his own warped mind. If his blackness was an issue he wouldn't have gotten this far. Just wait until he appeases the Muslims trying to be equal to all beliefs.)
I guess the Educational sytem has done it's job in America.See what's really happening to England and their culture. They tried to be everything to everybody and there is very little English culture left.
Task force to probe Diaspora investment
Interesting!
"It is a war about war -- and about culture and about religion and about race. And in that war, Obama -- and Obama alone -- offers the possibility of a truce," he wrote in The Atlantic.
Obama alone = Truce? He must be the savior of the USA. He's got all the answers and will set us straight.
Are we so sure he couldn't end up being the Anti-Christ?
I think it's not probable because I would expect someone with a higher IQ and who can reason well for that job. Someone with a brilliant mind. Although we may get hit with a curve ball. Who knows.
Look at this article from Michelle Obama's chat on The View
If they are accurate her are some of her quotes:
"It's like, how do I address her?"
"You know, just calm,.."
"And you know, I'm taking some cues.."
"I mean, there's a balance."
"It's because she doesn't, sort of, you know.."
(Then it explaines her "fist bump.")
"It is now my signature bump," Michelle Obama told "The View" co-hosts. "But let me tell you, I'm not that hip. I got this from the young staff. That's the new high-five."
So this will be the 1st Lady? She can't even speak properly. "You know, It's like, I mean."
I don't even let my 7 year old speak this way when she started in on "It's like". That was quickly removed from her vocabulary.
We thought it was cute to speak like this in High School because the "Valley Girl" theme was popular. This is not what I would expect from the First Lady.
What a representative of our culture which the prevailing attitude is "casual." What are other counties which do have some standars of class going to think about her? Or, as long as the Obama's policies match their own objectives they won't mention it.
Donna,
That was interesting. Especially this comment:
"Now, for the first time since the destruction of the Second Temple, Israel is the largest concentration of Jews in the world and the overwhelming majority of Jews live in security. The era of mass aliya from countries of distress may have come to a close," Olmert declared.
Popped in. I see the OSAS discussion hasn’t died down. I don't lean. I stand sure in the Word of God that He chooses His children without their help and secures their salvation for eternity without their help.
A question. Would you tell a person that you've just lead to the Lord that they could lose their salvation? What affect do you think that would have on them?
What I would tell them is that now they are responsible to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. That doesn’t mean they need to work at keeping their salvation. That would make it a salvation of works would it not? All believers are to actively pursue obedience and to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior and it involves a healthy fear of offending God and having a righteous awe and respect for Him.
In time, if they go back to the ways of the world, it proves their heart was actually thorny soil and their faith was never genuine, God originating faith.
God originating faith will endure. “He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Lisa,
My brother made a profession of faith about twenty years ago and after about five years he fell back into the ways of the world. I haven't stopped calling him back nor praying for him.
Kathy, great post!
Please know your brother will be in my prayers!
jim G ;
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
You said;
"I think it means saved from the penalty of our sins and freed from bondage to the sinful nature. I think what saves us though is being reconciled to Christ and abiding in Him. Relationship with Christ is what it is all about. Salvation seems to be a benefit of being reconciled to God."
My understanding of salvation is that it involves 3 things, justification, sanctification, and glorification. The penalty part is the justification. The relationship part is the sanctification. All three are known as salvation which is ongoing until glorification. That is what Paul meant by working out your salvation, I believe he was refering to the parts that are ongoing. The justification was settled once for all time at the cross by Jesus. At the time we repent (change our minds about our sins) and accept His death and resurection for all our sins, past present and future our justification before God is settled. The other parts are ongoing until we are gone from this mortal body. That is the relationship part and becoming freed from bondage to our sinful natures.
"But, we are capable of letting our love grow cold and taking His sacrafice for granted. It is a dangerous thing. Anyway, I think the warnings in Scripture imply that one can be separated from God even after being reconciled to Him (born again). The consequence of separation from God is damnation if we die in a state of separation."
I think the prodigal son was separated from his father when he strayed, but he never "unbecame" his son. One thing that I believe this parable illustrates is that God always honors His part, even if we do not. And the son did return in the story. The separation was relational in the parable, not positional (he was still the fathers son).
I do not think we will resolve the differences on this question this side of eternity. I do agree with mac though;
"while some may reject Him and depart from the Faith for whatever carnal circumstances, He doesn't reject them. I do lean towards OSAS but I don't take it for granted."
I do share your concern for those who would take the seriousness of salvation lightly. We as humans will always fall short of the mark and sin. But our Father will keep us in His hand (His promise) and no one can take us from Him.
Marantha!
"A question. Would you tell a person that you've just lead to the Lord that they could lose their salvation?" Yes.
"What affect do you think that would have on them?" They would take it seriously.
Ok my husband just called and I asked him. He already understood that before he committed himself he felt that if you don't maintian the relationship it can be severed and he takes his conversion and committment to Christ seriously.
(But I like the fact you take a stand even if I don't agree w/it)
Anyway,
I was reading the book of Esther today and realized that Haman could be a foreshadow of what will happen to the "Ahmadinejad" and the nations that come to attack Israel in the war of Gog & Magog.
(At least if it happens while straight jacket is alive-or rather is it dinner jacket?)
God had declared that He would have war with Amalek from generation to generation. The king promoted Haman, who was a descendant of Amalek.
Just going over the story again of how God used life circumstances to humiliate and kill Haman. It's actually quite humerous. But I was thinking about how He will use the same type of method in the Gog Magog war to turn the "Amaleks" on one another for their own destruction.
Also to note that God intervined on the Jew's behalf after much fasting, sackcloth and prayer.
I found a good Jewish Article about their current situation and where the apathy & disbelief comes from.
Wow, GT! Great post!
Lisa, I assume that you mean that one can lose salvation thru unbelief?
Let's try that again:
Sarkozy challenges Israel over Jerusalem
U.N. nuclear team inspect bombed site in Syria
To clarify my leaning; I don’t take anything for granted and I have seen plenty good arguments from either side on OSAS, using scripture. Let’s just say that I’m still studying the Word of God. I haven’t had the benefit of a fundamentalist church upbringing and have only been delving into the Word since 2001. I tend to look at all arguments whether it’s the Sons of God marrying the daughters of men issue; the rapture debate; premillennialism, preterism or any thing else. And OSAS is a biggie!
To anyone interested who has not seen this yet; Here is a good video and article on the climate change subject, formerly known as "global warming."
http://www.
thenewamerican.
com/node/7524#Slide
Frame_1
By the way, I don't think he "leans" toward global warming being a scam, he comes right out and says it!! LOL. Sorry lisa, couldn't resist, my bad. Although maybe we all do too much "leaning" and not enough standing, in my case leaning is more confortable. LOL
Marantha!
Bridges for Peace
Good explanation, Mac. I guess that describes how I learn and lean, too. :)
Funny post GT!
To All My Beloved Cave Dweller Friends:
I also stand sure in the Word of God that Christ will be coming to gather us at some point after the man of lawlessness is revealed.
Donna, thanks for praying for my brother. His name is Phil.
My Dear Lisa, I pray you and your husband will comprehend to the fullest these wonderful words found in Jude 1:24,25...
"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."
Dobson accuses Obama of 'distorting' Bible
Mac
my foot aches or hurts depending on how much I've stood on it. Today it was quite a bit so it hurts.
Interesting discussion. not sure I have much to add.
Pray for us this week-it looks like the long dreaded time to put our collie down has arrived. to make matters worse or better my folks are here with one of our nephews this week. likely Thursday will be "the day". The cats death was quite traumatic for all of us last year. Our son still cries on occasion about the cat (so does his mommy but that's a separate issue). this will be equally as difficult. just thinking about it makes me weep. I'd truly rather wake up and find him dead than have to take him in but that's not going to happen. So our son will lose one of his dogs this week and a couple of days later his cousin and grandparents will be leaving also. Another grandmother will becoming for about a week. Lots of losses both permanent and temporary for our little guy to deal with.
GT,
You can "dig" me anytime. I think it's funny!
Here is a site I ran across which had some interesting thoughts on it re: End Times.
Promise of His Coming
The lady has since died from cancer but it was her wish to keep the site up. Her tab "This Generation" was good & some other things. Even Kathy might find something of interest here.
Donna,
Yes unbelief or may "believe" but choose not to follow. I was a "believe" but chose not to follow type for many years. I was was waiting for the right "time" & "circumstance" to happen before I put the effort back in.
Good thing I didn't croak in the meantime!
Jim C.
Our new brother's name is Bill. He said everyone up @ the alter was shaking. Then he felt like something happened-no real explaination other than he felt charged up but out of his normal mode @ the same time.
He asked me if I saw anything different-which I didn't but he felt different.
lisa;
"You can "dig" me anytime. I think it's funny!"
Thank you for being so gracious, sometimes I just can't resist. If you wish, feel free to "dig" me also, it helps to keep me up right and standing. LOL
Maranatha!
gt,
But it's not fair! What do you ever do that I could dig?
I'm kind of the worked up nut around here. I give you plenty of opportunities!
I'm quite serious but don't take myself too seriously-as I come up with some real whoppers.
Just ask Jim C. I keep him on his toes! Look @ this one:
"Lisa, PLEASE tell me you're joking bout that "Secret Instructions Booklet"! .....
By the way Jim C. What's wrong w/the secret book? You don't think these sects have hidden manuals?
The: Mormons,Scientology,Illuminiti,FreeMasons,Wiccins,JW's,etc.. have secret books.
I checked the article out Lisa. Very confusing for me. I understand the parable of the fig tree as Jesus telling us that there will be signs that will indicate "He is near, right at the door" and the generation who is living when "all these things" begin to unfold, starting with the false Christs, will not die out until "all these things take place." Another way of putting it is the generation who will be alive to witness "these things" that Jesus mentions earlier in Mt. 24, will also witness the return of Christ.
And I was going to put blogging on hold!
I did get a lot of work done today. I tore the roof off of our little guest cabin. Tomorrow the new roof will go on.
Mac,
I did read the Dave Hunt article on OSAS that you posted June 23 at 4:14am.
One concern I have is that many folks continually either misrepresent or misunderstand the position of others who don't believe in OSAS. A prime example is when Dave Hunt said in his article:
While those who believe in “falling from grace” are clear that good works cannot earn salvation, they teach that salvation is kept by good works.
That is not what they teach. They teach that one must abide in Christ by faith. When one continually and deliberately sins, that is evidence (according to Scripture) that one is not living by faith and abiding in Christ. This should not be confused with the sincere Christian who struggles with sin.
Dave Hunt also wrote:
In the Greek, Christ’s cry from the cross, “It is finished!” is an accounting term, meaning that the debt had been paid in full. Justice had been satisfied by full payment of its penalty, and thus God could “be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus” (Rom 3:26). On that basis, God offers pardon and eternal life as a free gift. He could not force it upon anyone or it would not be a gift. Nor would it be just to pardon a person who rejects the righteous basis for pardon and offers a hopelessly inadequate payment instead—or offers his works even as “partial payment.”
I agree that the debt was paid in full when Christ said "It is finished." His death on the cross was sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world! But even Dave Hunt doesn't believe that means everyone in the world is automatically saved. It is appropriated by faith. This whole OSAS debate I think turns on the nature of that faith (whether it is a one time event or a continuous, living faith in which God has granted man's free will some role.
Some OSAS folks deny the free will but apparently not Dave Hunt because he says God does not force salvation upon anyone. I agree with Dave on that point.
Someone once pointed out that everything inside us tells us we have free will. As humans, we have a sense that we have the ability to choose. So, we might as well live as if we do and act as if we do because if we have free will and don't use it, it is wasted. If on the other hand, we don't have free will, then there is no sense in worrying about the choices we make (even if we think we have chosen to live as if we have free will). In other words, everything to gain and nothing to lose by assuming man is a moral agent with the ability to choose right from wrong and the ability to choose to put our faith in Christ or reject Him after the Holy Spirit has revealed himself to us.
I have a personal story regarding the OSAS position I'd like to share.
The first time I recall learning that some Christians believe that it is impossible to lose one's salvation after accepting Christ by faith is when I was in H.S. I worked at Colonel Lee's Mongolian Bar-b-que in San Jose as a busboy. A high school friend of mine was the dishwasher. I considered him a Christian brother as I know he confessed Christ as his Lord and attended an Evangelical church regularly. We were talking one night and I asked him if his older brothers were Christians (he came from a large family). He said, well, they don't go to church and they aren't serving the Lord but I guess they are because they accepted Christ at one time.
I had never heard of such a concept. It turned out to be an eye opener for both of us. Neither one of us had ever been exposed to the other one's doctrinal position. Needless to say, we had a healthy debate about it that lasted a while.
Fast forward a few years. My friend Mark had a high school sweetheart who attended the same church as he did. They broke up shortly after high school. It broke Mark's heart. His girlfriend ended up marrying another man. Mark stalked her for a while and then shot and killed her in broad daylight one day as she was leaving work.
Mark was sent to prison for life. I recently had contact with one of his sisters. She says he has pretty much rejected God. I don't believe that God "rejects" anyone. He died for all. The fact that God is faithful and loves every person does not mean that He will force us to either enter into relationship with Him or remain in relationship with Him. Thus, there are so many warnings in Scripture about falling away or rejecting Him after we have tasted what it is like to have relationship with Him.
I don't believe that not going to church or living a sinful life or commiting murder are the cause of being separted from Christ. They are symptoms that the faith is dead. Dead faith is useless.
Repentence and faith (living faith) bring us into relationship with God and keep us in relationship with God. God simply asks us to surrender to Him. It is a continual process in our hearts. He knows we are weak. He knows we fail. His mercy is everlasting and he is a gracious Lord.
God is no respector of persons. He doesn't treat the unsaved differently than the saved. He allows both to approach him by faith and both can reject him by lack of faith.
Jim G.
OK, on a lighter note:
I'm firmly with Kathy on the pre-wrath view of the rapture. But of course we disagree with one another on the OSAS issue.
I'm with Lisa and I think Alicia in having trouble seeing OSAS as Scriptural.
Lisa, I think you'll be shocked though when you see how many Catholics are in heaven. I also believe there will be plenty of Seventh Day Adventists (like Vicki) there too. I know I put a plug in for this before but you all have to see this DVD if you can. Common Ground: What Protestants and Catholics Can Learn from Each Other
I do believe that tongues are for today (can't recall who I'm with on that one but I think it is Lisa and Grany among others.
Harold, I think Ravi Zacharias is great too!
I also think James Dobson's ministry has been fantastic as has Jack Hayford's!
Then again, I always admired Pope John Paul II and I'm not even Catholic.
I generally identify myself with the Republican party because that is a party that at least for the time being accepts pro-lifers and persons who believe that marriage is between one man and one woman and that homosexuality is neither normal or healthy.
Did I say I love Israel, God's chosen people. I don't believe the Church replaced Israel.
I have a beautiful wife and son who are the biggest blessings ever (next to the Lord of course). We adopted my son Daniel when he was just 3 days old. That is a miracle story in itself. It was a 14 year journey for us! Daniel is now 21 months old and I have loved every minute of being a Dad! We currently attend a Foursquare church.
I'm honored and blessed to be a part of this little cave dwelling fellowship. I think everyone has contributed something that has blessed, informed, and/or inspired me.
Thank you all!
Jim G.
Jim (G), I'd love to get a bunch of scholars in one room to thrash this out and ask them a bunch of questions and I can see your points. It's not about works it's about Free Will. I was just saying to Alesia that I have vacillated on this issue and really need to study it further and more diligently. As such I probably won’t add any more to this topic until I’ve stopped leaning. :-)
Here is an excerpt of an e-mail that Pastor George Zeller sent me in response to a question I put to him. He didn’t fully answer my question but linked an article that I posted a link to earlier.
If the person you described really was saved, then he will not perish (see John 10:28). However, if a person who once professed faith in Christ becomes an atheist, then I would doubt that the person was truly saved. See John 10:27 (the previous verse to the one given above). Christ's true sheep are defined as those who follow Him. An atheist does not follow Christ; he denies His very existence.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Jib, will be praying for you and family. I've had to go through that unfortunate exercise with two of my pets. Not nice.
Darkness at the End of the Tunnel
It really is interesting that there are so many different viewpoints here.
Personally, I wonder about this whole free will issue as well.
I am more into 99.9% of it all being Him and .1% of it all is us, whether it comes to salvation, justification, or sanctification.
I personally have a tough time fitting in wth 'holier than thou' people...and I do find that many Christians seem to fall into that category.
As far as deliberately sinning goes, Paul writes about this in Romans. He writes about how frustrated he gets when he continues to sin, even though he does not want to.
He comes to the conclusion in Romans 8:2, I think, that the Spirit will indeed conquer the flesh.
Now, this will not necassarily happen overnight. It takes years and a lifetime...and I believe it won't be till we are on the other side when we will be the way He wants us to be.
One of my brothers accepted Christ many years ago. He lived what some would call a questionable lifestyle (although I think we all live questionable lifestyles in God's eyes).
He passed away over 10 yaers ago.
I do believe he will be in heaven for eternity.
In his heart he had faith...and it's what's in the heart that counts the most.
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Mac,
That's an OSAS-Pre-elect answer you quoted.
I would have a hard time believing that a "saved" Christian would actually go as far as becoming an atheist. That one is even a stretch for me.
But it would not surprise me that a saved Christian would fall away-back into the world and it's fleshly attraction(as we are at war with our innate sinful side which actually prefers sin) or by being lured into a damaging situation by a false prophet.
Satan is on the prowl and is not happy we came out of his control of darkness & into Christ's wonderful light.
He wants to trick us into thinking there is nothing to worry about no matter what we do. So we can say we are Christian but not act like it.
If the branch bears no fruit it is cut off the plant and burned in the fire. The proof a person is no longer in Christ is that they will not obey the 1st & 2nd commandments. If you keep God #1 in your life there is no chance of not bearing fruit.
I've been having a discussion with another "Todd Bentley" follower. He's a Christian. I'm going to post what is coming out of his mouth and tell me what you think.
Is he still saved? Is God #1 in his life or has is own "personal experience" taken God's place in his heart?
We are not to judge people in the world but we can judge the actions of others in faith. That is the only way we could help them to get back on track & not poison others within the flock.
my only addition to this whole debate is to comment that I lean (sorry Lisa it is possible to only lean toward one direction or the other and I agree with Donna that regarding predestination and free will one can have a sense that both play a role which I do-can't explain it so don't even ask) but I must be the oddity since I also believe in eternal security. Christ's death was either sufficient or it wasn't.
Jim G
yes I would still regard your friend in jail for murder as a Christian. I suspect if anyone asked him or dealt with him that he thinks God has abandoned him. To me he is the perfect illustration of the prodigal son. He has lost his way, is angry at God for something and someone needs to show him the way back. He may also have some undiagnosed mental illness-one never knows. As GT, I think said, we don't stop being the children of God by our actions.
I think one can live in sin for some time, anger, rebellion but still find their way back and be restored as the prodigal son was restored because God says so. I would noted however that while I think their eternal destination might be intact I don't think they will have any rewards in heaven-which I think goes back to what GT said about working out one's salvation.
having said all of that however, and likely one of the reasons I lean, is that I am fully aware of the fact that when I sin it is because I'm trying to do it myself and not rely on God's strength to live righteously.
"I respect Todd a lot because he is sticking to his anointing: preaching the Gospel, healing the sick and casting out devils."
(1st glance that does not sound unreasonable but here is what's driving him:)
"they're jealous and proud and don't want someone doing stuff and experiencing things they have no understanding of and no control over"
"they hate it when others have greater experiences than themselves because acknowledging those experiences would highlight a "lack" or an unknown and uncontrolable factor..."
" People, we've been in the end times for 2000 years."
"You need to leave what is good for what is better and then leave what is better for what is best."
"God wants to take us all from glory to glory, but we need to move with him and leave some things behind. You cannot gain the new without losing the old."
You guys need God to pour out His Spirit of wisdom and revelation on you that the eyes of your heart may open and that you may know Him, understand your calling and see the riches of His glory (Eph. 1:17-18).
God's glory is not only a heavenly thing. Since Jesus came the kingdom's been getting closer and closer to us. Jesus taught that the signs of this were healings, deliverance, the Gospel being preached to the poor, etc. The kingdom has been getting closer and closer to us for 2000 years. So ofc we're closer now than the early Church was. The proximity of Christ's glorious kingdom is becoming more and more tangible every day. And soon - but no one knows the day nor hour - it'll come in all it's fullness and we'll be raptured into it.
If you haven't learned to know the glory of God on this Earth you probably never will. You're still in the position of the fallen man who falls short of the glory of God. Those who've really been saved have also been anointed with the Spirit of Glory and they're persecuted by the likes of you...
(Do you like that? "Really been saved?" He's really saved and I not finding his "demonic glory" one of Christ & speaking out against these manifestations am lacking the Holy Spirit and persecuting him. Oh, don't worry-he's already called me plenty of names.)
But what I really find interesting about his defense and comments is that I feel as if I'm speaking to the wiles of Satan himself.
This is how he operates on one's mind to deceive even the elect.
So this guy is going to ignore the old and follow the new. From glory to glory-or from past experience to new experience.
Is his first love really Christ or is it following what he calls "glory?" Do you think he's still saved following this false prophet who's tickeling his ears?
Why were we warned against this if it doesn't make a difference to God & our salvation?
We would be able to follow anyone just as long as we "believed" and/or "followed" Christ. Whether they follow the true gospel or not just as long as they don't deny the trinity & sacrifice of Jesus.
Todd Bentley does not "deny" any of these things but he is "adding to" the Word in terms of where he is taking his flock in the way of "experiences".
This is serious stuff. Our Christian brothers and sisters are being led astray by this "method" of deception.
What else is lurking around the corner? The heat is turning up and so is the sophistication of trickery.
Any thoughts on this one?
We don't stop being a literal "child of God" by our actions but we do cancel the "adoption" as a child into the "Body of Christ" by our actions.
These are some complex thoughts. You might want to spend some more time in the old testament and understand how God deals with rebellious "Childern."
He demands and deserves full obedience yet we let him down time and time again. He is full of mercy and grace yet He is also just and will express His displeasure through righteous anger, wrath & judgment.
Last night I started a study through El Shaddai Ministries on the book of the "Song of Solomon."
This book can be applied on 3 different levels. A literal love story, Israel's relationship w/God,or the relationship between Christ and the Church. The Jews at one time would not let their sons read the book until they were 30 years old. (It is pretty steamy!)
It's a love story about Christ and "His Bride" in this particular allegory. I'm not done w/it yet but it reflects Christ's unending love for us yet we are a pretty "wishy washy" Bride.
But if you really want to appreciate the "Love" aspect of the relationship it a great study.
Song of Solomon
I started w/the study notes and reading the book & when I have a grasp on that I'll move to the audio.
Lisa, this statement from you is one that I have never heard of before and have no clue where it comes from, but it does not sound like anything I have ever read or heard from the Bible.
"We don't stop being a literal "child of God" by our actions but we do cancel the "adoption" as a child into the "Body of Christ" by our actions."
JIB, I agree with your post. I hope you are able to rest and heal. Hopefully you are having a nice visit with your folks...and I am sorry to hear about your pets.
you will all be in my thoughts and prayers.
Also, Alesia, I loved the prayer you posted the other day! I can't remember if I mentioned that at the time. I think I will print it out and hang it up somewhere.
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Donna,
The "adoption" concept is a really great study if you have not seen it before.
In biblical times under Jewish law an adopted child was considered equal in status to a natural born child. Even to the point of the adopted child getting an inheritence over the natural born siblings.Being adopted was as if you were naturally born into the family.
Read Galations 4
It speaks of being an heir and a child of God. That we were children of God(bondage under the elements of the world-a slave) but when Christ came and redeemed us we then became adopted as sons.
Verse 4) And because you are sons, God has sent forth His Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"(or "Daddy" in english) Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
If you read verse 8 it speaks of the Galations and they were not well grounded in their faith. False teachers had come to take them back into bondage.
19) My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you 20) I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.
The "Adoption" theme is also in Romans 8:12-17 & Romans 9:4
Paul wanted to see their hearts transformed by the indwelling presence of the power of Christ and obtain a full relationship with God but instead they treat Paul with emity because he tells them the truth about their spiritual condition. 16)
Anyway I found this article by John Wesley which explains it more throughly. (And don't forget to read the Conclusion-"but only he who has committed his life to God has the "Spirit of adoption.")
So if it's not longer committed - your no longer an adopted son & heir but always a child of God.
(oops, typo corrected)
HI Lisa,
Yes, I am very familiar with the "adoption" themes in the Bible.
It's the "actions" in the statement:
"..we do cancel the "adoption" as a child into the "Body of Christ" by our actions"
that I do not believe is accurate.
If our adoption was based on our actions, none of us would be adopted.
Here's a Brief Historical and Denominational Overview of OSAS
I found interesting. I was wondering what the early church fathers wrote about this. I had a pretty good idea of where the major denominations stand on this.
I think the author is quite fair and non-inflammatory in his characterizations of the various denominational positions on OSAS. I do think he's misunderstood and mischaracterized the Catholic teaching somewhat though. Perhaps Jim Carroll can confirm if my assessment is correct since I'm not Roman Catholic.
Jim G.
Jim,
I just read the article you posted. How one view's faith seems to play a big part in what position they take as far as eternal security. I can see if you view faith as originating from self it would naturally lead into understanding you can lose your salvation. Faith that is from self logically must be nurtured and maintained by self. Self faith, since it must be maintained by the individual, becomes a faith that works. When self faith gets tired of working, encounters persecution, is enticed by the world, it will grow cold. When a person is no longer committed, for whatever reason, they walk away, “losing their salvation”. My contention is that they never possessed salvation. You can’t lose what you never possessed. If you walk away you were never gifted with God originated faith. God originated faith will have the quality of endurance and perseverance. Why? Because the source is eternal! Faith that is self-generated cannot endure because the source is flawed and finite.
Paul says in Romans 5:1, “Therefore, having been justified by faith (God originated faith), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Someone who truly understands the peace they now possess is not going to give it back!
In what does God originating faith believe? Christ’s work on the cross alone and nothing else.
Lisa,
What makes us adoptable? Isn’t it Christ’s righteousness and not our own? If we think we can cancel our adoption into the family of God by our actions, doesn’t that infer we are trusting in our own right actions?
Kathy,
Your distinction between "self faith" and "God originated faith" seems necessary for your doctrinal position but I don't find that distinction made in Scripture.
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2For by it the men of old gained approval.
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Examples of people who gained God’s approval through faith:
Abel
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Sarah
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph
Moses’s parents
Moses
the Israelites who passed through the Red Sea
Joshua and the Israelites who marched around Jericho
Rahab
Gideon
Barak (not Obama, different guy)
Samson
Jephthah
David
Samuel
the prophets
women who received back their dead by resurrection
and others
men of whom the world was not worthy
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith…
Why did Jesus criticize people for having so little faith if it was beyond their control to exercise?
Matthew 6:30 (NIV)
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
Matthew 8:26 (NIV)
He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.
And why were so many commended for their faith?
Matthew 9:2 (NIV)
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
Matthew 9:22 (NIV)
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment.
Matthew 9:29 (NIV)
Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you";
Is God playing games with us? Does he really chastise us for having too little faith and encourage us to have faith when it is completely out of our hands and totally in His?
Jim G.
references to “faith” in Scripture
Did anyone catch the political reference I slipped into my 3:36 PM comment?
;-) I couldn't resist.
Jim G.
Yes, Jim & it gave me quite a chuckle! - Good one!!!
Oh no! I just realized we are at 150 & have nothing prepared :-(
New post is up.
Shalom all! I've got lots to do, so of course I drop everything and start replying to people on this board. Can you say, "procrastination"? I knew you could.
Overcomer, in the last blog post you wrote, "Jim C, I was troubled by your statement, "Every time I sin, I am rejecting Christ." If a person is a believer I don't see this as the case. They are just walking according to the flesh." Let's get some definitions down so we're all talking about the same thing.
In order for an action to be sinful, it has to be three things:
1) It must be forbidden by G_D or contrary to His will;
2) You have to know that it is forbidden; and
3) You must freely choose to commit this action.
Catholics tend to divide sins into two classes: venial and mortal. "Venial" comes from the same root as "vanity" or "vain" -- a focus on yourself. These are sins that damage but do not break your relationship with G_D unless they become frequent or habitual. "Mortal" sins are those that damage or break your relationship with G_D.
As an example, stealing a pen from work would be a venial sin. If you continue to steal pens from work at the rate of, say, one pen per week or if you steal a whole box of pens at one time, then the sin has become frequent. You've adapted yourself to a sinful behavior, which now is at a risk of becoming a mortal sin. Stealing $100,000 from work is definitely a mortal sin, since there is no way stealing that much money does not harm someone else (the owner of the company, your co-workers, etc.)
Another example: before I found a pop-up blocker that worked, it was not uncommon for me to have pop-ups that advertised sex sites. That was not sinful for me, because I did not CHOOSE to have the advertisement appear. For me to not close the pop-up immediately but think about the site might be a venial sin; for me to actually visit the sex site would be a mortal sin: an action that I knew was sinful but which I freely chose to do, thus choosing to break my relationship with G_D.
Overcomer, I think what you are calling "walking according to the flesh" is what I would call a venial sin. In talking about OSAS, I would be thinking of mortal sins, actions that you know G_D has forbidden. In choosing to commit these actions, I would know they are forbidden by G_D yet I would freely and willingly reject the authority and commands of G_D and chose to follow my own heart. If I continue to reject G_D in this fashion, then I will continue to follow only me and I run the risk of G_D granting my wish and give me ONLY "me" for the rest of eternity.
In all of these examples, the solution to sin is Confession, which both Catholics and Protestants are bound to do by Holy Scripture. 1 John 1:9 and Romans 10:9-10 both teach us to confess our sins to G_D, but also James 5:16 tells us to... "Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results." In confessing our sins, we become reconciled with G_D and the relationship is healed.
Jim G., thanks for posting that link on the overview of OSAS. The author does mis-characterize the Catholic position. To say, "Integral in this line of thinking, is that one must perform good works and lead a holy life to help ensure their salvation," is an oversimplification. And as I explained above, his statement that "certain sins are said to be serious enough to forfeit one's salvation," can be true only if you build your life around those sins. EACH, EVERY, and ALL sin can be erased through Confession of those sins. (Save the sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, but that's another thread.)
The author is accurate in describing the RCC view of salvation as a lifelong process. It comes from trying to reconcile all the different interpretations of Scripture that I've read in this discussion so far. To summarize the RCC belief, Man is saved only through the loving Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross; through His Life, Death, and Resurrection we are given the chance of eternal life with the Father. Unlike the Jews of Jesus's time who taught that by keeping all 600-odd commandments in Scripture, through these "works", one could save oneself; it is faith in Christ Jesus that we are saved.
Yet, how do we gain that faith? G_D CANNOT force us to love Him or have faith in Him. That would be contrary to His nature. We must freely choose to follow Jesus and commit our lives to Him. G_D will provide the spiritual graces and faith necessary for us, but ultimately, it is our actions that allow G_D to save us: We choose to believe. In this way, our salvation becomes a cooperative venture, much like the parent helping the child build a macaroni picture for Father's Day: The parent provides the macaroni, the glue, the paint, the paper, prepares the work area, cleans up the messes, etc., allowing the child to make that wonderful creation "all by myself!"
The difference here is that the mature Christian knows that this salvation is not "all by myself." In fact, the mature Christian realizes that he or she cannot provide anything to this project. The only thing the Christian can do is to deny one's self, submit to the Will of the Father, and to work to align his or her will with the Will of the Father. The Christian must choose to do this -- G_D cannot choose this for you. How do you align your will with the Father's? Through prayer, first and foremost. "Doing good works" follow in a close second. In performing works, you are providing an external sign of your faith in G_D, you are encouraging others in their faith, and you are denying yourself to help others.
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