Tuesday, May 3, 2011
God the Builder
"Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of - throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself." — C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity)
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Praise the Lord today.
Amen!
I should like to ask prayers for someone whose name I do not know. I had to drive up to Cedar Rapids to meet with a placement agency. The agency is in a building that is right next to where the new Federal Court House is being built. When I got there I saw that there was both a fire/rescue team there and an ambulance. While waiting for the elevator I learned that someone had fallen from the 6th floor and died.
Please say a prayer for this man and his family.
<><
so sad Jim C. how goes the job efforts?
Hyde
love the quote!
trying to catch up on comments btw
Lisa
I have had the same thoughts about all the famed saints dying. I would add to your list the late James Kennedy of Coral Ridge church. I would wonder about Billy Graham. I don't like his stances on somethings of late but still for many years he has been God's faithful servant.
regarding Bin Laden
I am happy he is dead as there is some imperfect justice done. I have to wonder why now however given that he had been living in this compound for many years.
from our pastor
"Here is my 2 cents. I am glad he is gone, but I do not rejoice in death. I am a just war theorist, there are times when war is the only answer. I mourn that fact, but I believe that to be true. I am not a war monger, but when provoked in this case most would believe our only retaliation was to destroy the source, or maybe "a" source, though he was a VERY powerful source. It was not a matter of revenge, it was that he brought death to our doorstep and the only logical step for a sovereign nation to do when attacked was respond to protect, and we did. Many people will play the pacifist card, I used to be one especially with my family’s Quaker roots, but it is easy to be a pacifist when the strongest military in the world is protecting you. May God have mercy on Bin Laden’s soul. I won’t lose sleep that he is dead, but in fact rest easier that a child of hell has gone home."
my addition (response to a comment by Grany)
"too true but he had more opportunity to come to the truth than many muslims since he lived in the west. he chose this path and stuck to it with unswerving devotion. one wonders if his heart was hardened beyond the ability to repent. he certainly appears to have been given over to his own desires. I am happy he is gone-justice is served and the world is slightly safer perhaps than it was. he was of his father the devil no doubt about that. the question has come up what is the Christian response. hmmm, how should one feel about the death of a mass murderer. the celebrating in the streets does slightly raise eyebrows but it is understandable. you would know since you are old enough-what kind of reaction was there when Hitler died?"
I can count on you all to pray for the Israel trip right? May 7-19th.
Rosenburg has a prayer list on his blog too. Just found out the Epicenter Conference on the 15th is held @ a Church Facility? called "The Pavilion" which seats only about 600.
Tonight I chatted w/another lady who's going "ahead" of us & solo on this trip. She was called quite some time ago to Israel in order to pray in advance of the conference.(And see the sites too on the side.) I won't go into all of the details but her circumstance seemed like an impossibility for her to go financially & logistically. She shared how God opened doors for her & worked things out. Quite astounding.
I was reading this article Hamas, Fatah Coordinate May 15 Assault on Israel when it dawned on me to check w/the Psalm 83 prophecy. Will Arab Protests Hasten Psalm 83 & Ezekiel 38?
I don't know if this May 15th Infantada is just going to be a precursor to Psalm 83 but I do know God is on the move & His Kingdom is Coming soon.
Our Pastor is going to preach on Joel 2 (The Day Of The Lord) 1-17.
You can also watch the Epicenter Conference "online" if you check out Rosenburg's link. It's May 15th & 16th. They are a day ahead & about 10 hours ahead of West Coast time.
Jim C and Lisa; praying.
Praying Jim.
and Lisa..
I think Salus is jumping the gun. If there is a 3rd Infantada on May 15, it will just be a precursor, some sidelined newsnote. It will just be some noisy Palestinians working the crowd, just like always.
The real deal won't come until after September. After the UN unilaterally declares the State of Palestine, that will give Fatah/Hamas legitimacy as a government, one that sits on the UN. Israel has been pushing to allow the existing Jewish settlements to remain in the new state; the Palestinians say no. It won't take much for an "incident" to occur, an insult against the new state, one that will call for Arabs and Palestinians to unite against the terrorist state, Israel. It will give legitimacy that, before the creation of the state, would just have been another terrorist action. After the state is declared, then Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. will all have legitimacy in joining together to defend the fledgling state against the aggression of the enemy, Israel. They'll be able to say, with some justification (not really, but they'll be able to give everyone a reasonable cause), that the armed actions would be acts of self-defense.
Enjoy your $5/gal. gas while you still have it.
<><
I didn't think Salus said that May 15th would be Psalm 83 - did he? I was reading the nations he listed that have been recently revolting & they are all curiously the same nations in Psalm 83. So I think something is going on here.
Let's just say a big "if" this was Psalm 83 then in Sept or thereafter it could be a close second w/ Ezekiel 38/39.
A friend from L.A.'s site sent me this Video Psalm 83 in May 2011? The Palestinian 3rd Intifada against Israel!
Lisa, your trip is now on my calender and will be in prayer for you!
Jim C., how sad. Praying for family.
Lisa, in the middle of that video posted over at facebook on Psalm 83. Certainly September happenings will be a huge deal.
Wish that I could invite you all to my babyshower that my sister is throwing for me. It would be so nice to meet you all face to face! She will be here from Florida at the end of May, can't wait. Baby boy is due on July 4th. Since none of you know my family I can reveal our chosen name (we always keep these things a secret until the birth so that we don't get any negative "vibes" from our family. It has turned out to be a wise choice for us and our 4 kids!) We are naming him Ian Paul. Ian means "God is gracious/God forgives" and Paul is after the apostle Paul, his name means humble/small. My 7 year old son told me the other night during our prayers/goodnight time that our baby boy would be a hero for God. With everything happening in the world today especially I do pray that the baby is blessed and will be a man who loves the Lord and obeys Him.
The thing about this baby is that both my husband and I had decided we were done having kids till one day last fall. I thought the Lord was asking me if I would say yes to another child. I was not sure at first but then I decided that I would if that was what my hubby wanted, but I didn't think that he would. Hubby came home one evening and told me that I was going to think he was crazy but he wanted to have another child and he felt that is what God was leading him to as well. So, this all came into both of our hearts without even discussing it before hand! Pretty special to me :)
Diana
Abbas: Tax Freeze Accelerates Statehood Bid at UN "If they keep blackmailing us, we'll make September nearer," Abbas threatened in Cairo. "September is the ninth month. If the extortion continues, we will file a request with the UN in the fifth or sixth month of the year."
World pressuring Israel not to block Palestinian tax funds
Congrats Diana!
David Wilkerson, Tornadoes, and Palestine....ALL Prophetic of America's Coming Judgment! (Some ironic facts of the location of Wilkerson's death.)
Be Ye Ready is No Joking Matter-Wilkerson
Diana, if you're going for a biblical name, why don't you name him something like "Ian Cephas" (which is the Aramaic origin of the Greek "Peter"). Or maybe something traditional like "Habakkuk", or "Zadok"? (I'd stay away from "Adonijah", though. "Ian Adonijah" is too tongue-twisty.)
Congrats!
<><
Lori, I was posting those links (about Israel not transferring tax revenues to the PA) over at CAF when I had a thought: If Abbas DOES push up the timetable for a vote in the UN to May, here are some dates to consider when looking for hostilities to begin:
29 May -- 26 Iyyar, start of 6-Day War in Jewish calendar
31 May -- 28 Iyyar, Yom Yerushalem (Unification of Jerusalem in 1967)
05 June -- start of 6-Day War in Gregorian calendar
07 June -- Unification of Jerusalem in Gregorian Calendar
08 June -- 06 Sivan, Shavuot (Pentecost)
12 June -- Pentecost observed in Christian churches
I'm thinking, in the back of my pointy little head, that someone is planning to launch a war against Israel to recapture East Jerusalem in time for the anniversary of "Unification of Jerusalem" day.
Jim C, I just "love" the name Zadok!!! Goodness :) made me laugh today, thanks!
Diana
Congratulations Diana!!
Lisa....have a WONDERFUL trip!!!
It sounds AWESOME!!!!
Diana, Congratulations!!!!
<><
Diana, you know, there is a lot to be said for having "Zadok" as a middle name. Just think how cool he would be in high school to have people calling him "Ian Z"? And if anyone makes fun of him for having a sci-fi middle name, he can look at them with cool contempt and inform them that it was the name of one of the Priests of the Lord during the time of King Solomon.
It might not go over too well as a first name, though. Although when he grows up he could gain a lot of cred for going by the name "Z. Ian Lastname".
For real fun, though, rent the movie "She's Having a Baby" and watch the last 5 minutes during the closing credits, where they have all the actors and people who worked on the movie suggesting baby names. (I especially like Dan Ackroyd's take on traditional names.)
<><
This guy spoke at our church. If this is true then I’ve been duped big time! And I thought I was starting to wise up.
The Mosab Yousef Saga: Did Hamas ‘Defector’ Dupe All of Us?
Listen to what the former Israeli spy and Son of Hamas author says when he speaks Arabic: it’s clear he’s more double agent than turncoat.
Lisa. I wonder if this is true? I did see that the article was written by Walid Shoebat. I have not had time though to check out the web site itself. If true Mosab certainly deserves an Oscar!
I wonder if I'm going to get out to Israel now or back. Contaminated Jet Fuel Halts All Flights to & from Israel
Interesting link, Lisa.
Jib,
You asked Grany if she recalled what kind of reaction was there when Hitler died.
Interesting parallells between the deaths of Hitler and Osama.
May 1, 1945 vs. May 1, 2011 -- How news spread of the deaths of Hitler and Bin Laden
Jib,
Did you say a while back that you were reading the book "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy"? I heard the author interviewed on Focus on the Family radio broadcast this week. Very, very interesting. The author had some great perspectives the church and politics which I think were in part shaped by his research on Bonhoeffer.
Stumbled across this illustration the other day. Thought it worth sharing.
Promises available to those who are having relationship with Christ
JIM G.
Did you notice it was 66 years almost to the day. The event with Hitler was reported in the morning but we didn't get it until that night about the same hour,according to Eastern Time. Remember, daylight savings time was not a factor back then. How do I know? I was very much alive, kicking and experiencing all of the drama. I was almost 11 years old. Well really, I was just 10 years old plus 4 months 18 days. But my favorite passtime was sitting in front of the radio console with my grandfather listening to all of the news of the day. Gabriel Heater, Edward R. Merrill, Ed Hawker, John Daly, and many more than I can recall their names.
Needless to say, our age hoped, prayed and believed that this was surely the end of the rages of evil and evil men. Not so and if we are so weary of all the roaring of a toothless devil, don't you think Abba is even more so?
Even so, Come Lord Jesus, come!
Grany
Did I scare all of you off? Well, anyway, seems there is a reasonable reason to believe that there were some under the table deals made in the execution of Usama Bin Laden Sunday. Debkafile has an interesting headline "THE SALE, THE PRICE, THE DEAL" but it is a paid subscription article and I have let my subscription expire. Anyway, there are quite a few subtle hints in some of the other news sites that makes it all the more enticing to find out. But our BOO HOO is the main character or leading man.
See ya all around later.
Grany
Grany...how sweet to picture you and your grandfather sitting around the radio listening to the news and loving it!
Was your grandfather a Christian, watching and hoping for Christ's return, too?
Jim G, I loved the chart you linked us, too!
My sister in law is a regular church goer, but has no clue about abiding in the spirit, trusting Him for all things, etc. She thinks its all about "works". Sad.
Hey Grany, I sent you a message via facebook concerning a WWII question. Don't know how often you are at facebook but I know you are here often!
Diana
Just checking back in after reading some very interesting articles at www.debka.com. This whole mess with UBL or OBL, which ever, is really heating up. Pakistan and the USA are having a real war or words and it is getting a little smokey out there folks.
Anyway, in answer to Donna's question about my grandfather, yes, he was a Christian and really thought that Jesus would have raptured us all out of here a long time ago. He lived to see Israel become a nation again, knew it was the major sign plus the 2nd World War but the one thing that was truly missing was the Jews in control of Jerusalem again. It just wasn't understood. The surprise SUDDENLY of Israel being called Israel again was not lost on my grandfather at all. But did you all know or hear that both World War 1 and 2 were generated by events shaping up with the Balfour Declaration and the efforts of men such as Herzl and many others of their time to create a Zionist Nation? It seems the enemy of God was intent on destroying every effort to the Jews being restored to Israel.
CONTINUE ON NEXT COMMENT:
CONTINUING:
There are numerous web sites that you can access regarding the Balfour Declaration but HERE is one that will take you on a little less traveled road of history. It will share things you will never hear about in polite conversations and definitely never hear about on most major Prophecy sites either.
There was great resistance to the actual act of the Jews going back to their Land. But my grandfather was keenly interested and insisted it would take place because the scriptures promised us it would. Now was the acceptable time of the Lord.
DIANA, I will check my page. I am not dedicated to my account like I should be but I do manage to check it out if everything else is slow. I have been trying to catch up with my work from being unable to move around much for a few weeks. Something going on in my right lower back area but not my spine. Well, lots of soaking prayer and paying a lot of attention to diet. Maybe it will get discouraged and move on to someone else.
I will catch up with you all later.
Grany.....Much love to all of you.
Are you all for a conspiracy tale or two? You might find THIS VERY INTERESTING .
Something else that I wondered about on Monday after the world heard about the Seals taking out OBL with burial at sea. If they were so concerned and paying attention to details about the disposal of OBL's remains, what about the same attention being paid to the other Muslim bodies at the scene. Why just bury one individual at sea and not the others along with him.
Has anyone ever heard of Hollywood? Has anyone ever seen anything that appeared so real it was mind boggling? If the link above makes you pause and wonder, that is good. We need to learn to quit believing anything that comes out of D.C.
Just wanted to share this take on the subject with all of you.
LISA, PRAYING FOR YOUR AND YOUR FELLOW TRAVELERS
Grany
How cool that your grandfather who also was waiting and watching, Grany!!
These are such amazing times we live in!!!
Here's a great video from Igniter Media:
Come Awake!
<><
Shalom.Today is Israels Independance Daym
I forgot how bad of a City sleeper I was.
Every siren, loud boom, yell wakes me up.
Its noisey ourside of the Hotel. We are located
off the Galilee lake for the next 3 days.
Last night we stayed @ the only Hotel
in the city of Ariel, Sumeria. They do
not like the PC term West Bank.It looks
so much like the terrain and plants of
So Cal.All of the houses are built of block
and are either white or beige.Housing is
very basic and reminds me of what I've
seen in Mexico.Simple as you can get.
Happy Birthday, Israel, and many more!
Lisa, did you have to stop in Cyprus to get your airplane fueled, or have they fixed the problem with the contaminated jet fuel?
<><
Jim C. No we flew right in. I think they
got that worked out quickly. -It was neat seeing
the Greek Islands from the air.It feels a
lot like San Diego w/the same plants and
weather.Just lots more open space , and
rows upon rows of Olive Trees.Houses are
Modest dotted w/ ancient ruins.
You'll have to update Facebook with some pics, Lisa. Am feeling envious at the moment.
Diana
congrats. would love to be there for our party too :-)
Lisa
very jealous. I think we need to be careful though in saying some one is not a Christian because of their attitude toward the Jews. if that is so then Martin Luther got a rude awakening when he died. In going through titles seems there is one at the prophecy today blog from who knows how long ago on Christina Palestinianism. perhaps I should read that.
I am also jealous. are the kids with you or with grandparents at home?
Jim G
yes I did mention the book Bonhoeffer by Metaxes a while back. it is a great read and quite thought provoking. There are many parallels especially in the realm of the church with what was going on in his day and I found Bonhoeffer's take on serving Germany with the Nazi's in control interesting to say the least. I can not recommend the book enough.
going back to Shoebat-I would want some one else to confirm that what he was saying was indeed what Shoebat claims and that the entire comment is taken in context and not pulled out of context.
Shoebat and Richardson have been less than charitable in the past, although no I can not think of a concrete example at this time, toward people who disagree with their take on prophecy and what they believe. It would not surprise me in the least to find that Shoebat and the other man have had a run in in the past
Thanks Jib,
I've told my wife that I really would like to get both Metaxas' book "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy"? and "Life Together" by Bonhoeffer. I think I'm going to get them for Father's Day! Can't wait. Thanks for the recommendation.
I just saw on his website www.ericmetaxas.com that it was named BEST CHRISTIAN BOOK OF THE YEAR 2011 by the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association.
I'm here solo. Dad has the kids. They would
be bored for the most part.But if any of
You have the opportunity definately take it.
God opens doors even when it looks like an
impossibility to us if its His timing for us
. Some people are getting baptized in the Jordan.
The origional site of Jesus is on a fenced border area
and is also too muddy.I had in mind the
ole country girl way of waking down a dirt
trail to the river. This baptism operation
is like being in a 5 star hotel.Steps, ramps,
Guard rails. This is quite a place.Me-I didn't
want to get soaked and my ocean experience was
really special in its self.90 % of the group
are going for it though.
We're back on line...for the moment.
finally working!
Jim
his book on William Wilberforce was quite good also
for those interested I posted something new on my blog.
I have to admit I had two influences for this. One was a something from a friend about time and the other was the recent vote in the PCUSA to allow practicing homosexuals and lesbians to be ordained pastors. While I was not raised in the Reformed Tradition or Presbyterian my heart is still breaking because after thirty years evil has finally won and Ichabod needs to be written over the the PCUSA. Our local church has consistently voted against such measures in the past. We are now faced with the process of leaving the PCUSA or staying yoked together with an apostate group. Let me say however on an individual basis while I love our church, the pastor, we will not stay in the local church here is they choose to stay in the PCUSA. They have always said that they would not. We could use your prayers. There are also many other churches who are mourning the loss of Biblical authority in the PCUSA so pray for them as well. This is going to cause a huge schism.
Lisa, how are you getting on in Israel?
Jib, have been praying.
I'm good and blessed to be here.Just
downloaded w/so much info I sense that
it will take some time before I realize
Gods purpose of this is.
Being from the Rosenburg group you all
should watch the Epicenter Conference
online.
www.epicenterconference.com
Good to hear from you, Lisa. Will do.
Wanted to pass on something that is really scary:
Lord Ra-El: The Christ Has Returned
What makes this especially scary to me is that they're claiming to have hooked up with the Catholic Apostolic National Church, a schismatic sect associated with the Old Catholics that also claims both valid sacraments and apostolic succession. (IOW, Just like the Roman Catholic Church, but more "open".) To me this means there's going to be a LOT of confusion among RCC believers.
In addition, remember how Howard Camping has claimed the rapture will happen on the 21st? According to the News section of that website, "LORD RA-EL WILL ADDRESS THE WORLD ON MAY 21st, 2011. HIS MESSAGE WILL BE POSTED ON THIS WEBSITE AND ON YOUTUBE." I'd be in awe of the moneymaking potential this guy has tapped into if I weren't so terrified for his immortal soul.
I wonder if this Ra-El is related to Superman? (given name: Kal-El) Also, I wonder if this guy will also claim to be Maitreya, or if we'll have dueling False Messiahs.
<><
I was able to watch most of the memorial service for David Wilkerson this past Saturday. The reflections upon his life spoken by his son, pastor Gary Wilkerson, were very good. I noticed that Times Square Church has made the memorial service video available online. Anyway, thought I'd mention it for those here who might be interested.
email from Andrew Strom's wife:
As you all know, Andrew recently visited Papua New Guinea where
he had a wonderful and encouraging time. God was moving and
many were baptised and received the Holy Spirit. Milne Bay
Province, where Andrew was ministering, is the seat of witchcraft in PNG.
Less than 2 weeks after his return to Melbourne, Andrew began to
experience fevers and chills. This continued for about six days.
Although we had visited the Dr and been advised to wait a while, it
began to increasingly trouble us the Andrew was not recovering as
he is hardly ever sick.
As the situation worsened, we felt he should have blood tests done
at the hospital. Sadly, it was discovered that Andrew has Malaria
which, as you probably know, is a serious illness. Andrew will
remain in hospital for a number of days.
We would greatly appreciate your prayers for a speedy recovery!
God bless you,
Jacqui Strom
I have really enjoyed a few days off from the duties at home and yet, it is great getting back to "home base". I have been reading Lisa's comments about Israel and oh, I wish I could go back one more time. I love Israel and the wonderful people (Apples of God's Eyes) and yet, Joel's trip seems to be more toward something I would really like.
Lisa, you are blessed to have been a part of it and I enjoyed watching the videos of the Epicenter Conference. Thank you for sharing with us.
Diana, I just read your message to me and I will try to get something together for your daughter. Right now I am still unpacking and enjoying the past week's time with my daughter, son, their children and my great grandchildren too. Lots of happy memories and I needed that special time with them. My grandson is moving to Arizona the last of this month with his family and I will really miss having them close by. Well, 400+ miles is a lot closer than 1500 miles.
Made a note of all the prayer requests and adding them to my journal.
Love and blessings to all,
Grany
Hi Grany! Thanks but don't worry about it. She wrote a paper already and found sources on the web. Relax and enjoy your time!
Diana
Good to see you, Grany!
Praying for Andrew Strom.
Interesting how all of this Harold Camping stuff has spread like wildfire!
email from Andrew Strom:
SPECIAL THANKS to ALL
-Andrew Strom.
I just want to say a big Thankyou to all the wonderful people
who prayed for me while I was in hospital. I am home now, a little
weak and light-headed from the fevers of the week and the
medication - but otherwise fine. Thankyou so much, my friends.
The Malaria is now gone from my bloodstream. Praise God!!
Blessings to you all.
Andrew Strom.
still waiting, still waiting....
Methinks the horse has bolted...
Aw, HE didn't give us the shout and I am disappointed.
But one very good thing that came about due to Mr. Camping's announcement....much discussion about the topic of THE RAPTURE. Just think what it will be like all over the world when it does happen.
If those doubting Thomases think our disappearance was strang, wait til we all come back riding on white horses and do battle against Satan. Oh, I love the idea of chains and a pit for the Tormenter of our souls.
Halleujah Jesus, please come quickly!
….The most damning of Mr. Camping’s listed teachings is that “Michael is the Lord Jesus Christ” (The End of the Church Age … and After, p. 56). Harold Camping is a Jehovah’s Witness in doctrine. To deny that Jesus Christ came to earth as the Godhead incarnate is blasphemy against God. Colossians 2:9 in the trustworthy King James Bible states… “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” John 1:1-3,14 clearly evidences the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, and again in John 10:33 when Jesus Himself claimed to be God.
In Revelation 1:8 Jesus claimed to be “the Almighty!” There is NO heresy in the Bible about Michael, the archangel, becoming flesh and dying for men’s sins. Harold Camping is a Modernist, an imposter who knows not the God of the Bible. Mr. Camping’s ministry is of the Devil.
Harold Camping's Heresies EXPOSED!
(My general summary)
I’m back ~ safe & sound. (Didn’t even have any problems-thanks for all your prayers!)
This Israel tour was not your “average” tourist itinerary although there were parts of that as well. The bottom line is that the conflict between Israel & her neighbors are of a spiritual nature but after being in the midst of the land & people I’ve come to realize how complex it really is.
Walking around in the Old City of Jerusalem (and other places) you’ve got Jews, Christians, Arabs, others working & living together in relative peaceful relations. There is a large segment of the Arab population that just wants to be left in peace & live & work like everyone else. The Jewish people have brought great improvements to the land & a significant amount of agriculture & technological advancements. It really isn’t that bad of a deal for the Arabs as they can reap the fruit of what the Israelis have invested into their country.
Then of course you have the Islamic radicals who want another Muslim conquest & take it over-period. If it weren’t for the IDF & so many of them walking around & guarding areas w/machine guns @ their sides this would be the case. The fences erected @ particular Palestinian areas are needed for the safety of the neighboring towns. W/O the fence they would continue to terrorize the others nearby & blow themselves up. When we stayed our 1st nights in the Arab area of Ariel – in the lobby they left the entryway floor damaged from a Suicide Bomber shrap metal blast to remind people of the never ending threat. (Not something that makes you feel too cozy @ check-in!)
In the middle of our trip we were invited to tour a school called “Seeds of Hope” in Jericho. In this area they will not guarantee the safety of Jews so we literally had to switch busses on the side of the highway to Arab busses. (And did that feel secure- ha, ha!)Tass Sada was the hit man for Yasser Arafat & came to Christ – eventually opening up a couple schools for Muslims. They are not allowed to teach them Christianity but if asked they can explain their faith to the kids. There was a lot of resistance @ first to his school & they set it on fire among other things. Eventually after reaching out to the local Imam – he responded favorably to this Palestinian Christian & now speaks well of the school & of Christians. Truly there are some “seeds of hope” planted here but Tass said it will take some time to take root & grow.
cont...
There are so many Muslim families who want to send their children to this school now they are busting @ the seams. Jericho was like going into a Wild West Clint Eastwood movie- Middle Eastern style. This was wild! And…..I was soooooo out of my element. Some of the kids ran by the busses waving while other Muslims honked & flipped us off. These guys were driving by in cars all decked out in their full Arab traditional dress. We saw the ruins of the walls of Jericho & then off to a little Coptic Christian Church. (Supposedly Zacchaeus House @ one time.) They are persecuted there of course so it’s rough for the Copts. Jericho is mainly run down, lots of abandoned buildings & tons of trash flying around but they are trying to improve things w/funds they get from the U.N. The Palestinian people are generally impoverished so it’s difficult not to feel empathy for them as well. It’s not exactly great shakes over there. As an American we just really have no idea. The closest thing to us would be comparing their lives to that of the poor towns in Mexico.
We visited another Arab area – the city of Nazareth. There is a Christian school smack dab in the middle of the Muslim city. They teach Christianity in this school to all the pupils. They say many Muslims send their kids to the school & a small amount may convert to Christianity. Most of them retain their Muslim identity but do go onto working in the community w/a new favorable outlook on Christians in general which naturally eases tensions. The Christian Arabs are not necessarily Pro-Jewish either. It’s a real tough for them to grasp that the land is rightfully owned & run by the Jews. The Jews don’t exactly treat Christians as equals either. They are really entrenched in their ‘Traditions’. Our history in the U.S. is a couple hundred years old. Theirs goes back 1000′s.
To the Arabs and to the Jews we are still thought of as ‘Crusaders’. When the “Christians” came though to take this land away from the Arabs they killed not only the Arabs but killed the Jews off too. Then they went to the Christian ‘holy sites’ and erected Churches on top of all the areas they could.
In my opinion they pretty much ruined many of the historical sites. Instead of a nice open area in it’s natural setting it’s now got a giant cathedral sitting on top of it full of idolatry. A Jew looks at this & they see a Jewish Messiah? If I can barely make it out as a Christian then how would we expect them to see it? It looks totally foreign to the roots of Christ.
Our tour guide was terrific. She is a Messianic Jew & so we came back w/an enhanced perspective. What is really ironic is the street “Villa De La Rosa”. The path Jesus walked w/the cross. The Catholics have this path all planned out in “12 Stations” & Christians from all over the world come to walk it as a pilgrimage. She said Christians even kiss the walls as they walk along this path in the Arab quarter. Well- it just so happens that Jesus NEVER walked this particular path because when Jesus was alive the part of the city he walked on is sitting beneath this current section UNDERGROUND. Jerusalem was built over several times & has “layers” of history. So she took us underground where some of the original path has been excavated & where he really walked on.
There is so much more to this but for now I’ll leave it @ that. God is moving over there & I don’t think He is taking us home quite yet. There is a lot more work to be done & people are being strategically placed & things are set into motion for future fulfillment.
I guess the question for us is. Are we going to watch from the sidelines? Or is the Lord’s plan for us to step into the picture? I’m back in the U.S. now & removed from the Epicenter but this experience has certainly given me much to consider.
cont...
There will not be Peace until the Prince of Peace returns. Meanwhile God is using His remnant Christians to work @ reconciling Jews & Arabs & others by showing that unity in diversity is only possible through Him. It’s really amazing how God pouring His Spirit out over there even in the midst of up risings & turmoil.
Lisa;
If it is true about Harold Camping (and it seems to be by the way interprets Bible prophecy), then the best thing that can come out of all of this is that all the people who follow Camping would come out of his "camp" and read their Bibles with guidance from the Holy Spirit and become true followers of the true Jesus instead of followers of a false teacher!
I pray they may then become members of The Lord's true church and be truly ready when He does return!!!
Maranatha!
Glad to see you are back safe and sound Lisa!! Things look like there are about to heat up again over there with "O" telling Israel they must go back to '67 borders before there can be peace. Sorry. but what an Idiot!!
Maranatha!
We are being hit with some terrible weather all around us tonight. We are all still pleading the blood of Jesus and so far the storms have not hit us. However, Joplin, MO has really been hit hard where a tornado destroyed one of the hospitals and several dead. That isn't to far from here but this system is forecast for tomorrow, only stronger system. We are not in fear but there are many that live in this region that are without that hope we all know as Jesus. Shalom
Praying for you, Grany, and all those caught up in that weather.
Good to have you back safely, Lisa.
did you all see this one? Putin intends to retake the Presidency
I think Medvedev ought to have eyes in his back and a food taster
I feel slightly exhausted this morning and I know you will all be hearing about the latest destruction that took place last night and very early this morning. Just remember, when those storms start threatening your part of the world, speak to that storm in the name of Jesus Christ and command it to stop and desist. I AM NOT KIDDING YOU ONE BIT! My DJH watched on TV as that storm system absolutely fell apart right over our community and moved on out.
None of you have to be victims of the works of Darkness and by this time you should all know that. In fact, as I am typing this I feel such a strong urgency to encourage you all to stand strong in the Lord and HIS WORD. Don't retreat and don't let fear get into your thinking and your heart. It is the antithemia to faith.
Gotta get a move on as about 4 or 5 p.m. the next storm system is supposed to start in again. However, there are prayers going up and we will survive and glorify Abba one more time.
Hallelujah!
Grany
Grany,
Thanks for the post and words of encouragement. I just bawled when I listened to an audio of people stuck in the tornado at a store. Woman was crying out to Jesus and a child was crying. So terrifying. These storms are highly unusual. Don't think that I have ever heard of such things happening so often and with such ferocity! My dad told me once that he spoke to a storm in the name of Jesus years ago when I was a child and it broke up and went away. I believe it!
Please pray for my daughter, Victoria. Her 8th grade class will be traveling to St. Louis MO tomorrow for a six flags trip. This weather activity is making me a nervous momma and my pregnancy hormones are working in over drive!
Thanks!
Diana
Diana,
Have you tucked in my prayer closet and expecting Abba to move mightily in your daughter's favor of protection.
Mommies have that characteristic of being greatly concerned, sometimes to the point of tears. Even Jesus cried tears over Jerusalem so we are in great company.
Our former neighbor, minister for the Church of Christ, moved to Joplin last spring and we are very concerned about his safety. His name is Richard Chambers and he has 2 very special children. We miss them so very much and we are praying that they are safe and unaffected by this horrible tornado.
Everyone here knows that this is not going to get any better and the shaking will continue until we are all free of 'things'. How much will be given up is unknown but I do know one thing; we will come through it all just as long as we keep focused on the Lord and His Word.
Grany
I'm literally "sick" (w/a cold) and I'm weak & tired. Ready to hear the shout & get to our heavenly home. I'm not liking this disintegrating model we're stuck on right now. This sucks.
Reminds me of all the ruins I saw in Israel. I forgot the year but this gigantic earthquake crumpled down ancient city after city all over the area. It was just unreal how powerful it had to be to take down so many cities so far apart.
Doomsday fire: Millions of volcanoes are stirring beneath the world’s oceans.
Grany, thanks for sharing that word of encouragement in your earlier post from today.
Lisa, glad you had a good trip. Thanks for sharing some of what you observed.
Thank you Grany. Yes, my mommy worries do bring me to tears. I have 5 (one to be born in 6 weeks!!)to plead with the Lord over. Even my dear hubby has noticed finally that things are not as they normally are in the world and in the U.S. even with this wicked weather.
Thank you for your prayers
Diana
God is making pretty obvious that our government needs to quit messing with Israel. BOO makes announcement, bad storm comes. We need to pray that our government will see that they need to stop messing with Israel.
Oh, the storms of Life! And of stupidity! I cannot, and I mean, CANNOT stand to hear one more word out of BOO HOO's mouth! He has two faces that I know of and I am so glad he does not live close to me. I try to pray for him (have since before the elections)but my heart is not in it. So, as the Apostle Paul instructed, I pray in my Heavenly Language and let the Holy Spirit have his say.
I have no idea who or what is advising him to do such dumb things JIB but I do know that BHO is not being supported by Congress or the Senate in his foolishness towards Israel. But we can pray that God move mightily upon BHO and let conviction for all these evil plans fall mightily on him.
There used to be an old saying in the real churches of long ago and it went like this: "Sic the Hounds of Heaven onto him! That in that battle, conviction would turn the person around to God's ways and reasons!" I am all for siccing him big time. But then I remember that Jesus also told us to love our enemies, pray for those that say all manner of evil against us. OK, what will it be Grany?
I think I will go peel an orange and think about it before I go to my closet one more time.
By the way, we had a dozzie of a storm last night with a whole lot of puffing and roaring (thunder) and then great tears (lots of rain) because the Faith could not be shaken and the Name of Jesus is still the most powerful word spoken anywhere, any time, or for whatever reason.
Thanks to all of you that prayed for us.
The weathermen are forecasting horrible storms late this evening (around 4 or 5 p.m.)that will top the mess of Sunday evening. Then tomorrow another round of threatening situations. My prayer is pretty simple, "Daddy, will you please take the weather toys away from Satan and do so in a manner that the whole unbelieving and BELIEVERS world will see, know it and be unforgettably remembered for the rest of their days!".
Would you all come into agreement with me and Linda on this request? Enough is enough and Jesus has already defeated Satan and his hoard. Jesus also told us to fight the good fight of faith until he comes back to get us. I can hear the sound of armor being put on and it sure sounds good to me.
Grany
Grany;
Agreeing with you all on the storms. Enough Already!!
Maranatha!
Grany, let us know if you're ok
Still praying, Grany.
The world is becoming a scarier place but that, in fact, should give us hope that HE is really on His way!!!
have a friend tracking the tornados and one is headed directly for Jim C and the other for Grany!
Lord
we pray for the safety of our friends and for the safety of all those in the path of the storms
Adding my 'amen' to that prayer, jib!
Grany & all, I can't tell you how much I HATE storms like you're going though. It is scary.
This reminds me of the Japan Quake, Japan Tsuamni, & Japan Nuke Meltdown. Enough Already is right! It feels like there is no end in sight.
And "how" long are we going to have to endure these things? Holy Spirit we're calling out an SOS! Your Bride needs more of You!
Just read this one today for comparison's sake Showing How Bad the Tribulation Will Really Be
Prayin! Aaaagggrrrrhhhhh!
Amen.
Feeling like I am waiting for something else bad to happen after these storms! These really are quite scary!!
Been praying. Wondering about Grany this morning. Don't know what town she is near
Diana
Oh gosh. Bad weather in our neck of the woods today. Under tornado watch already this morning and it is only 7a.m. We are in East Central IL. near Champaign/Urbana. Please pray for us here too!
Diana
Lisa;
I don't know if you saw what John B said @ Marzulli's Blog about the trib:
"I also believe that there are many Christians who are(fearful) of what has been falsely taught about what The tribulation entails.
and as a result the pre-trib rapture doctrine was invented in order to pacify the fear."
I guess there is no point in commenting on that other than reading the article you just posted. It seems he makes a lot of statements from his opinions.
Maranatha!
GT, as you know, there are many non-pretribbers who try to make the tribulation less severe than what the seals actually portray. I wonder what John B might say to that.
Grany, are you OK?
I am OK! Just tired from all of the huffing and puffing of the one pretending to be a lion. The only thing about his identity that we can really believe is "He is going to and fro throughout the earth seeking who can devour." Remember when you were in school and you were being taught English grammar and the use of 'may' and 'can' as they relate to question/answer? We played a game called "Mother, May I?" and the correct answer you had to receive from the appointed Mother was "Yes, you Can!"
Well, my point is pretty elementary my dear Watson, if he is looking for someone he "CAN" devour, he has to have permission first. I will not be giving him any kind of permission, no matter what he tries. so, last night was a real wringer for all of us here in Okieland and surrounding states.
I am going to steal one of Boo Hoo's slogans and say "Yes We Can CHANGE the effect of the toothless lying lion by standing together and in one accord that God is not the author of confusion, evil or destruction and he will see his servants destitute. There are an awful lot of His People in Joplin, MO., Tuscaloosa, AL., Oklahoma City,and other spots of weather destruction and it really grieves me. It also causes me to question 'WHY ABBA, WHY?'.
Love all of you and so thankful for your prayers.
Grany
Thanks for the prayers! No tornadoes this time, but strong thunderstorms. The weather seems to be moving away from me for today; we'll have to see what tomorrow brings.
<><
Lisa, thanks for the link to the article by Ronnie Rush. I posted the link over at Catholic Answers Forum with the following comment:
Given this list I can see why teachers of a "pre-tribulation rapture" are so popular. I'm also trying to match what is written in Scripture with various approved messages from different saints. I'm doing this mostly because the events in Revelation are so devastating it's easy to look at them as if everything you've known before has come to an end and you're just stuck in a hole waiting for the next bad thing to happen. Despite the descriptions given by Mr. Rush, I'm thinking that we'll still see life going on as before, i.e., nightly news reports covering the growing number of deaths, the latest celebrity scandal, and at least one "happy news" report each night.
Mr. Rush also attributes the large number of deaths to nuclear war; unfortunately, a pandemic such as the pandemic of 1918-20 is equally likely and much less "noticeable." With the breakdown of social services such a pandemic would bring (especially food delivery) combined with a major outbreak of Ug99 Wheat Rust (a destructive fungal wheat infection for which there is no effective treatment), and I can see some countries invading others just to guarantee food supplies.
My point is that in the case of a nuclear war, I think you'd have a lot of people finding Jesus real quick; but with a pandemic that starts in some out-of-the-way place and spreads quickly due to jet traffic, you're going to have many more people who will brush it off as another natural disaster, and who will call us "crackpots", who say "this is a judgment by G_D upon us". Satan is a master frog-boiler.
<><
Wanted to pass on this link:
The angels are astonished at all that the cause of mercy has let pass...
The author is a Canadian mother who believes she is being directed to write down these messages. Very inspirational and thought-provoking. You can read more of her messages by clicking the "Home" button.
<><
Hyde;
I sometimes wonder myself about the events of destruction in the Trib. They are so surreal in discription that it is hard to visualize how such things could happen, but the numbers of dead is hard to allegorize away whether one is pre-mid-post(or pan, which is popular now).
I never thought of the rapture (when I first learned about it) as an escape but more of a wonderful gift from God. Before I learned about a "Rapture" I was taught that the verses were about a finale ressurection, being from an Amil backround.
Anyway, the timing of the rapture is off limits for discussion on Marzulli's blog as well as many places because it is considered false doctrine by many! Thats a shame because I always thought of it as a wonderful gift and expression of God's love for us. I guess I am just deceived.
Anyway, it is sure difficult to "comfort one another with these words" when you are considered following a satanic doctrine and it stirs up so much hate and division.
Just today's rant!
Maranatha!
You can rant, GT. I’m pretty good at it too – just ask Alesia. The rapture question wasn’t that important to me for a long time. I was quite prepared to go thru the full 7 years. What excited me was that the Lord was coming! Even after reading some of Hal’s books, I didn’t really give the rapture much thought. It was only after seeing someone condescendingly put down the folks at the Omega Letter that I took up an interest.
I’ve discovered that there’s a strong anti-pretrib feeling that borders on hatred among some people. I can’t explain it. But for my money, most of these people are biased and do not assess their own systems with the same scrutiny as they criticize pre-trib.
As far as I’m concerned, the best scholarship suggests that the Lord really can come any time for His church. I’m not 100% sure that it’s right but maybe we better be ready for Him just in case. And there’s a wonderful joy of anticipation that it can happen anytime.
Anybody who judges pretribbers by asserting that they’re escapists probably has personal issues. Like I said on Facebook today – what part of Matt 24:44 do Christians not understand?
"For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.”
Maranatha!
Amen!
Grany,
Glad you're doing well and staying peace-filled with all the turmoil around. I kept watching the radar last night for your town and saw lots of holes get punched in the storm cells in that area. Praising God today!
Funny you should mention the may/can usage. Last weekend when I spoke to the ladies at the church banquet, that was one of my main points. For a period in my life, I was labeling myself as "fragile" or "ready to be broken" in the way I spoke about my situation and in how I pursued every "expert" opinion I could find to tell me how things were going to pan out in my life, according to statistics and others' outcomes. This gave the enemy permission to go after me and create the very destruction I was hoping to avoid. I had given the permission of "may devour" to him. That's one of the big lessons God has taught me over the last few years. I now go to the fight knowing how to label myself according to Scripture and the lion doesn't get much of a meal from me anymore :-) We've got to know who we are....children of the living God, for goodness sakes! Not the neglected, forgotten children of a deadbeat dad! I think that mindset is helpful also when considering the future with the rapture and trib., etc. I used to get very worked up about the idea that things might get dicey if it turned out to be a mid or post trib situation or if things just got plain bad before the pre-trib rapture. I find myself not really worrying anymore because I more and more understand that God's plan for protecting and supplying us is going to extend throughout whatever situation unfolds. If we're here for really crazy stuff, I'm peaceful now that we'll be fine through it, provided for and sheltered as necessary. Kinda like the 3 Hebrew men through the fiery furnace. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, right? Just keeping my focus on Jesus and the fullness of what He paid for is satisfying and alleviating to my soul.
OK, off to work on bedtime. Blessings to all!
Jen
On the subject of the rapture.... GT, I trully understand what you are saying about a pre-trib one being a gift from God, not an escapist idea. Who would want to be here for all of the things described in the latest article that Lisa linked to anyway? It is terrifying. How can I not admit that the things on this earth at that time are horrid and, darn it, I want to be with the Lord and get myself and my loved ones OUT OF HERE! But, I don't know what to believe about the different ideas on the timing of the rapture. Gosh, I was just praying today about my fears of being here for such things (especially for my children and not so much myself). I've decided that I don't have an opinion on the matter of the timing. I know what I would prefer (please take us out of here before the grass is burned up, and such!)but I guess it is all in His timing.
Diana
the issues of timing of the Rapture arise when one fails to consider that Israel and the church are not the same, God does not have the same plan for them. Further as to the saints that are martyred-no where does it say they are church saints. there are saints in the OT and they are not the same as the church saints as an example. If one fails to rightly divide the purpose of the Tribulation, which is described in Daniel, one could easily assume that the Trib is meant for the church.
I also think that people don't want to think that the Trib is going to be as bad as LaHaye et al have written-personally I think it's going to be worse but what do I know.
Another news item.
Today was the last Oprah show. I am glad to see it go myself. She was very influentual and used that influence to lead many away from the true God. In her later years she was totally caught up in Hollywood New Age junk-so sad- she could have been so much more. She just didn't like how exclusive the Word of God is concerning salvation so she searched for the broad way and found it, leading others that way also. She is so very sincere, wanting to help others but she is so sincerely wrong. I pray for her to wake up. I fear she has her mind set on finding the god within and I hope she ends up finding the truth about the god she seeks and does not give up finding the TRUE GOD!!!
Maranatha!
JIB
Rightly dividing the Word does clear up so much of the confusion in escatology and other matters. Most of those who disagree are convinced that they are rightly dividing it also. What can one do about that.
I get so upset sometimes with those who say everyone must go thru the trib for purification. What the heck does that mean! If Jesus was perfectly rightous and purified, and His holy nature was imputed to us by faith then do we not have His rightousness before God or not! Sure we still sin, but will the tribulation make us stop sining??
I guess I'm just to ignorant to see the logic in that??
Maranatha!
Grany,
Thanks for the prayers for Victoria while her class traveled to St. Louis yesterday. They are all fine and had a wonderful time. So thankful to the Lord that they were not traveling today since a couple of big lines of storms swept through all the places they would have traveled! Tornadoes and warnings all around since 7a.m. this morning. Just got our power back on. I can rest now!
Diana
I'm intrigued by the discussion of the rapture, which I like to call the Jesus' second coming (since the word rapture isn't in the Bible). Personally, I believe that the saints of God will have to go through the tribulation and will be delivered when Jesus comes, so I guess that makes me post-trib. But for the life of me, I can't figure out why a Christian would get mad about someone believing differently on this matter. We all believe Jesus is coming again and is our Redeemer, Deliverer and Savior—shouldn't we rejoice in that?!
But I do have some questions about the pre-trib belief maybe some of you can answer. I know some generalities, but know little of the specifics...
1. Who do believe are the 144,00? Do you believe this number is literal or figurative?
2. What do you think the seal of God is and what is its significance?
3. When do you think this sealing of God's people takes place?
4. Rev. 13:17 says anyone who doesn't have the mark of the beast can neither buy nor sell. Do you believe this happens before or after Jesus comes?
Don't worry...I don't plan on getting into any debates about this!
Thank you!
Vicki
GT, as far as the need for purification goes, we must ask what happens to the massive numbers who die before the trib. Do they miss out some special “purification” process and therefore remain in that state? I think it is bad theology and a tool used to try to win an argument.
hmmm Vickie
the word Trinity isn't in the Bible either. as to rapture-it is if you know the greek. the verse which describes us being caught up in the air in Thessalonians-the word caught up is the same greek word for rapture or seize.
the 144,ooo are God's appointed JEWISH witnesses for the tribulation. imagine-that many Paul's wandering the earth for God.
they are literal not figurative.
the seal is for the 144,000 that they can not be harmed.
the best I have read on the subject is Footsteps of the Messiah by Frucht. He will also take you through why he thinks the other positions for Rapture and equating the Rapture with the Second Coming are not scriptural. Since the information takes up several chapters in a rather think book it is not possible to reproduce here. You can get the book as an ebook which is readable via adobe reader on any computer and it is pretty inexpensive. you don't have to have a Kindle or a Nook to read it.
e.g.
The Rapture is not a knowable event time wise and the Second Coming is. The Second Coming will occur exactly 7 years after the signing of the covenant or three and a half years after the Abomination of Desolation.
one of the items that many forget is that the Apostle's were concerned solely with Messiah's kingdom plan-the church age was not known at that time. we also seem to forget that the study of last things did not originate with Christians but with the Jews.
GT and Hyde
good points :-)
sometimes I think we forget to use our God given common sense and logic
Vickie, while the word rapture isn’t in the Bible, the concept is there. As Jib said, the word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible but most orthodox Christians recognize it in Scripture.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The word “caught” is ἁρπάζω (harpazo) Meaning: to seize, catch up, snatch away. Usage: carry off(1), caught up(4), snatch(2), snatched away(1), snatches(1), snatches away(1),snatching(1), take away by force(1), take by force(2).
As far as the rapture being the same as the second coming, Pretribbers also believe that there’s a promise in John 14:2-3 that the Lord will return for His church and take it to heaven. Yet we find in Rev 5:10 that the saints reign on the earth. When Christ returns at Rev 19, He immediately sets up His kingdom.
I think there are problems with taking the rapture and second coming as one event. Interestingly, midtribbers believe the rapture is different to the second coming. And prominent prewrathers actually believe in multiple comings within a single parousia though they shy away from admitting it.
Who are the 144,000? See Rev 7:4-8. They are from the tribes of Israel. I see no reason not to take that literally.
What is the seal of God? 2 Co. 1:21-22, Eph. 1:13, Eph. 4:30. The church is sealed already. The sealing of the 144,000 is different and performed by angels (Rev 7:3).
The chronology of Revelation has Jesus coming physically to establish His kingdom after Rev 13:17 (Rev 19:11).
Thanks for explaining things, Jib. It helps me see where many on this forum are coming from, since I believe so much differently.
I believe the Second Coming and the "rapture" are part of the same event...when Jesus comes in great glory to redeem His own--taking up the resurrected righteous dead and the righteous living to live with Him in heaven.
Probably one of the biggest differences in our beliefs is that most of you on this forum believe Revelation is literal, and I believe much is symbolic.
Thanks again and God bless,
Vicki
I appreciate the explanations, Mac.
Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with the term "rapture", but I like to use the term "Second Coming" since I believe it is all the same event--less confusing!
I didn't make a full explanation of my beliefs as to what happens after we go to heaven, but I do believe that we will end up on earth in the end and will reign with Him forever.
Won't that be glorious?!
Vicki
I know what you mean, Vicki. I too held a similar belief once. I think you touched upon one of the differences between your system and what most here believe, and that is taking Revelation as literal (as well as futuristic and sequential).
That is not to say that there are aspects of Rev that don't contain symbolism. But I think there are areas where we mustn't allow our theology to dictate hermeneutics over the plain meaning of some verses.
But didn't almost all the Protestant Reformers, including Calvin, Wesley and Luther, as well as the more modern Spurgeon, hold the historicist view?
Vicki
Good discussion about the Rapture and overall meanings. I attended a Full Gospel Church and our pastor was not so sure that we would miss the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation and I always had a problem with it. Not to say that we won't know and experience the Shaking that seems to be in full swing right now but I always understood that period of time where the unbelieving Gentiles would be given one last chance to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. It would be the beginning also of gathering all the Nation of Israel in preparation for the last segment of the Big T.
One of the biggest problems I have with any of the other positions is really very simple. Those that truly do belong to the Lord have been totally redeemed by His sacrifice on the cross. It is the Blood of Jesus that cleanses and it cannot be improved upon, done away with or even cast away. I know about the casting away part because I tried to do that way back in the early 1970's. A divorce that was horrible, vicious and filled with lies absolutely tore me apart. Physically, emotionally and Spiritually. I can tell you that you cannot run and you cannot hide from the Holy Spirit but I tried. It took a complete stranger in a city that I had moved to just asking me a really serious question. She said "Wilma, why are you so angry with God? He did not cause your pain and suffering but you are punishing Him just the same!"
It brought me to my knees so fast and so completely that I don't ever want to leave His presence again. The Holy Spirit wooed me constantly and never in a mean manner. I was constantly being shown His Love but I turned away from it because of my thinking.
I really believe the reason for so many Christians getting it all scrambled together is the feeling that we deserve to go through the horror of the Tribulation; first and second part and suffer the same pain and testing that all Gentiles and Jews will suffer. But we are the Fruit of the Vine in Christ Jesus and there is nothing that we can not be forgiven of, if we will ask and repent.
continued
One of the things that brought it all into reality for me happened when I was in Israel in 1994. Our Jewish guide was so amazing in interpreting the scriptures. The climax of our trip was to take place at Bethany, the area where Lazarus,Mary and Martha had lived. We were lodged at the Hotel of Seven Arches and just about 50 or so feet from my bedroom window, a memorial (pretty simple one at that) had been made to designate the spot where Jesus ascended into heaven. In Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;which said ye Men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
All of a sudden I knew that when we are translated out of this world and called up just as the Apostle John was in Rev.4:1, Jesus is still not touching the earth. Here is the King James Version of Rev. 4: 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald."
Jesus was not standing on the earth at that time. He was calling John UP to where he is. The place that Jesus ascended into heaven is in Bethany, east of the Kidron Valley and directly east of the Eastern Gate.
When he RETURNS to the Earth for the Second Time, it will be to Bethany, the Mount of Olives and the earth will heave in convulsions of such that have never been known before. It will separate the East from the West.
His first coming was as a baby savior of the whole world but he came as the Jews Messiah. The stone that the builders rejected. Because of their rejection, all of us Gentiles were invited into the saving grace of God's purpose for the first coming. The Second one is for the Jews but first the Time of Jacobs Troubles. It will be the end of the Church Age when the Rapture happens and judgement begins for the unbelievers of the world.
When Jesus promised he would come again to take us to our heavenly mansions, I believe he meant us. As His bride.
When God's wrath is turned loose, it will be towards his Wife. Dr. Fruchtenbaum has an excellent teaching on the subject of God's Wife and it is one of the best I have ever read.
Just my two cents worth and Vicki, I love your spirit in asking and searching for understanding.
Feels so good not to be having tornado warnings and sightings taking place today. I truly do praise God for his wonderful protection and deliverance from all of the potential destruction. Never wanted it to go to anyone else's home or town.
Love and blessings,
Grany
Just a quick prayer request -- I have a job interview tomorrow at 11 AM.
Thanks!
<><
Vicki, the protestant reformers dealt with the issue of soteriology only. They also maintained that Israel was the church which is a doctrine that crept into the post-apostolic church via Justin Martyr, Origen and Augustine. These men introduced an allegorical approach to eschatology (especially in the OT) that still exists today.
Acts 1:6 would seem to be pretty basic. The disciples want to know when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Their question was based on OT promises. But someone who believes in replacement theology will probably argue that they meant something else.
I wouldn’t automatically say that because Spurgeon etc believed something then it must be true. Would you use Spurgeon as the measuring rod for all your other beliefs? What does the plain meaning of Scripture say?
The historicist view must reinterpret the Old Testament using the New Testament and you’ll usually find that they use the “Types and Shadows” argument. Unfortunately, historicists usually differ on what’s to be reinterpreted and what it all means based upon their presuppositions.
I have Amilenniliallist Kim Riddlebarger’s book. Here’s what he says: "But eschatological themes are reinterpreted in the New Testament, where we are told these Old Testament images are types and shadows of the glorious realities that are fulfilled in Jesus Christ."
Jim C, I’m praying.
Grany, I really enjoyed reading that.
GT, Marzulli believes in the Rapture & has had an actual vision of it. It's just he doesn't like the arguing back & forth. John B. certainly has his opinions & he's really uptight about Israel being reconciled to God as many of us believe they will be.
Did I tell you all about on the flight over to Israel I sat next to someone of the Bahai faith? The mom was taking her family to Israel on a pilgrimage because they have an enormous Shrine/gardens established there.
Bahai Shrine & Gardens Haifa Israel
"The Baha'i Faith originated in 19th Century Persia, present day Iran. The prophet, Baha'u'llah (ie., "Glory of God"), was born in Tehran.
Throughout history, God has revealed Himself to humanity through a series of divine Messengers, whose teachings guide and educate us and provide the basis for the advancement of human society. These Messengers have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad. Their religions come from the same Source and are in essence successive chapters of one religion from God.
Bahá’u’lláh, the latest of these Messengers, brought new spiritual and social teachings for our time. His essential message is of unity. He taught the oneness of God, the oneness of the human family, and the oneness of religion."
She had all of their teachings "scripted" in her mind (Like they pounded into me as a JW)
& was great at rambling them off.
I introduced our specialty into the conversation. Told her about the prophecies in Ezekiel & how Israel & the Nations are lining up just as written. What was going on in Jerusalem w/the Temple Mount, etc...
She said that their prophet Bahu u llah was even mentioned in the Bible. Now that I had to hear so I asked her in which scripture. She was having a hard time remembering the particular verses but said one of the gurus didn't believe it either but when he compared the life of their prophet to the writings of the Bible they matched up.
They think their prophet is an extension of Jesus (Jesus- one of many prophets sent by God)so I said the Bible states that we will only see Jesus come back the same way he left in the clouds. Not in some other persona.
She's taught to spiritualize that scripture in that Jesus doesn't "literally" come back in the clouds but that he would be seen in the clouds of our minds.
I told her the little ditty that the Bible warns that many False Christ’s & False Prophets would come in the name of Jesus & deceive many.
She didn't have much to say about that one.
But any scripture she brought up to explain that it described her prophet had a completely twisted & spiritualized meaning.
False teachings always seem to have this in common. The literal interpretation is "Spiritualized".
That way you can convince people that it doesn't mean what it plainly says it means. It stretches it to the point of becoming meaning-less. If you don't want to follow a teaching in the Bible or it doesn't line up w/what you want to believe- just spiritualize it.
And that is my thought of the day.
Why The Baha'i Faith is Located in Israel
(I left her w/an add torn out of my prophecy magazine for a DVD on Bible Prophecy & Israel. Hope she gets that to watch at least. I told her she needs to know what's going on.)
Obama: “Lets build a new unity faith society”
Obama- Unity Faith Society
Rick Warren Says Those Who Focus on Bible Prophecy “Not fit for the kingdom of God”
Rick Warren- Not Fit For The Kingdom Of God
Forgot this point. The Bahai lady was the only one her her large family to become a Bahai. She was raised in a Christian home & the rest of her relatives are still Christians.
She married an Iranian man & has 3 kids w/him. All Bahai. The reason she gravitated toward the Bahai religion is that she didn't want to believe God would send people to a literal Hell. Also, she agrees w/the idea of all people being able to seek their own pathway to God.
Thought that was interesting how she was drawn away & rejected the teachings of her upbringing & Holy Bible.
Lisa;
Yes, I know Lynn's stand on the subject and read his rapture vision (been following there about 2 yrs.). I was reading thru many of the explosive arguments about it and can see his point. If the bloggers can't present their points in a civil manner then he has to put an end to it one way or another! It seemed to me that any pre-trib view that was presented, or even just mentioned, was immediately beat down.
It definitely is not an important subject but does come up from time to time. I just don't see the reason why people hate the idea of what some consider the "blessed hope"!
I think many there are not very studied up on the subject and make off hand remarks (John B.) that are totally wrong and based on opinion. I knew nothing of the subject until I was in my late 20's, (Raised A-mil), but I didn't hate the idea as some do today.
John B. does seem to be confused and uptight about Israel, make me think he comes from sort of "orthodox" backround although he claims no allegiances.
Mac;
Very good point about those millions gone on before us that didn't have the benefit of a "purifying trib". I know they get the idea from the passage about Jesus returning for "a church without spot or wrinkle", but I never read in Revelation that the period of "Jacob"s trouble" was for purifing the Church.
Grany;
Thanks for that wonderful explanation on the subject, I had not thought of those points before!
Maranatha!
Lisa;
Is Bahai an off-shoot of Islam? I've heard of it before but have never studied it.
Seem it may be like new age that combines eastern thought with Christianity. New age seems to be unique to the west or at least thought up here in the 1800's.
Maranatha!
GT
is is not an offshoot of Islam. it most closely resembles hinduism but in point or fact it is mostly new age. have you ever seen those coexist stickers on a car which use symbols from the different faiths?
that is them
Vicki
nearly all the protestant reformers were of the replacement theology camp. The church replaced Israel in God's dealing and promises etc. they are all covenant theologians as well and not of the dispensational camp if you will.
many argue that since dispensationalism is new from John Darby, it isn't really according to some recent translations of early church fathers per Dr Ice, it can not be true. I would note however that they are relying more on man's interpretation that what the plain sense of scripture says. when the plain sense of the scripture makes plain sense seek no other sense. The Bible always tells us when something is symbolic and always interprets the symbols for us as well, further symbols are consistent through out the OT and NT with very few exceptions. So what one symbol means in the OT it means in the NT as well.
can not recommend Footsteps of the Messiah enough if you really want a good solid teaching that is reasonably easy to follow
praying for your interview Jim
Interesting:
Concerning the Jewish Calendar & Feasts
Vicki, If one were to believe that the return of the Lord/rapture/second coming were immanent, and Israel was not returned to her land, then the only option would be to assume that the Church has replaced Israel.
Our current view of a pre/mid trib rapture would be nonsense prior to the re-birth of Zionism, and would completely destroy the essential immanence of the return of our Lord. The early reformers had no choice but to believe in replacement theology.
But our Lord has tarried, Israel has returned, and the possibility of a literal fulfillment of Revelation is possible for the first time since the destruction of 70 AD. Daniel was clear that some things were to be hidden until the end times. These details are some of those things.
We still believe in an immanent return of our Lord in the rapture, but some things are still uncertain, such as the timing of the destruction of Damascus and the Gog Magog war. Do these events happen before, or after the departure of the church. If we insist on them happening before, then the return of our Lord is not immanent, but pending, so we don't need to be prepared today.
God deliberately kept things vague enough that every generation could say "maybe today". But to say that we must maintain the theories of the pre-Zionist era is to misunderstand the essence of prophesy.
This is not to say that you are wrong, but to challenge us all to carefully look at all new theories of end times sequences.
Wayne
WAYNE,
Great points and one of the most important is the restoration of Israel and the Jews to their Homeland. My very loved Grandfather lived to see that day when Harry S. Truman, the 33 president of the USA cast the deciding vote to recognize Israel's right to exist as ISRAEL!
One of the main points my GF would state over and over again to all of us that would listen, "Watch Israel very closely and get in line with Her". To my knowledge, my GF was not of the lineage of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac but never the less, he knew that 1948 was a pivotal moed for His people.
If we could determine what war/wars preceded The SHOUT, it wouldn't be a surprise when Jesus comes. We know that there are a few curves coming down the pike but I don't believe anyone really knows the correct recipe to the end of the Church Age. If we did, there wouldn't be so many heated discussions but it would also, hopefully, stop the venom that so many of the different denominations throw around.
That is when we have to trust God's word and His Holy Spirit. If Jesus doesn't know, what makes any of us think we know?
Love your focus
Made it through the interview safe and sound. Won't know for a couple of weeks what the outcome will be. Thanks for the prayers!
<><
I agree, great points, Wayne.
Another reason that replacement theology crept into the church was anti-Semitism which perhaps was a late reaction to the persecution of the early church by the Jews and the denial of Christ.
But even non-disp Anglican J C Ryle who was a contemporary of John Darby taught that the OT promises to Israel were still valid. He foresaw that Israel had to return as a nation based on face value treatment of Scripture, and it did!
Still praying, Jim.
Jim C, goodness gracious, a few weeks?! That stinks. But hey, great you got that interview! What is it for? Praying for you!!
Diana
New Book out by Jacob Prasch- looks good! He makes some intriguing points here.
Shadows Of The Beast
This is REALLY good too:
The 1965 PROPHECY by Stanley Frodsham
Jim,
Will be praying for the company that interviewed you that they don't make a real foolish mistake by failing to offer you a job.
Seriously, for your sake and theirs, will pray that they offer you the job and that it turns out better than your wildest dreams.
I just received the neatest FB friend request from a guy I've never met. We have a mutual FB friend who has fallen away from the faith (or perhaps never truly was in Christ). Anyway, so glad he asked me to be a FB friend. Here's his FB profile:
Tour Guide at Sar-El ToursStudied at Beit Yaziv Open University '09 Beer Sheva, Israel
Lives in Jerusalem, Israel
Knows English, Hebrew, German, Spanish
From Murfreesboro, Tennessee
And he's a church planter who totally loves the Lord!
great article on AT about laughing at the prophets of doom.
Laughing at the prophets of doom
"But most critically, the sarcastic and cynical focus on Mr. Camping's failed prophecies is a way to avoid the historic claims and person of Jesus Christ, whose example and work have transformed millions of followers whose depth of faith and loyalty increases over the years. It is also a way to avoid the profound idea that something is irreducibly wrong with this world and that the wrong needs expunging and the world needs redemption."
"Yes, even many Christians are unaccustomed to the idea of a God who laughs in derision at the follies and foibles of the human race and who will eventually judge the misdeeds of all mankind"
Praying for your friend, Jim G.
Thank for that article, Jib.
We attended Calvary Chapel Cleveland for the second time today. I was very impressed with the Pastor. They have all kinds of missionary outreaches.
It kind of scared me a little because of the depth of commitment of these people....then I look at myself!!!
Need to ask for prayers for my brother-in-law. His right hand was badly injured in a farm accident yesterday afternoon. So far he's kept all his fingers, BUT...
He's getting moved out of intensive care this afternoon; don't know when he'll be released.
<><
Jim G, Sar-El Tours is the tour company our Congregation uses & just used in Israel.
Ask your friend is he knows Pilar Blanco. A Messianic Jew from Spain.
She was awesome ~ I'm really going to miss her. What a wealth of historical/biblical knowledge & such an energetic gal!
I got the feeling she really liked us too. The goodbye @ the Airport gave us all sad hearts.
I have no idea why I posted that quote from Lisa's link and because it takes up space that others can use, I deleted it. However, the link was very interesting and I do know that Smith Wigglesworth counted that man as a trustworthy believer.
The quoted portion does a pretty good job of describing how impostors or cockeyed doctrines get into churches. Especially the part of gathering other believers into a personal admiration society in order to corrupt the Word of God. We are seeing it everyday and it isn't just in the church. It exists on TV, internet, social programs in our communities and by way of government involvement.
Just be forewarned is all I am trying to say.
Grany
Hi...I hope and pray you are trusting Him for all things!
I spotted this at MSNBC and thought of you all:
Rare treat coming: Three eclipses in June and July
Two partial solar eclipses and one total lunar eclipse due
Over the next month, the world will experience three eclipses: two partial solar eclipses a month apart and one total lunar eclipse exactly in between, and it all starts with a so-called "midnight" eclipse of the sun
New post is up.
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